Latest / Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast / Ep. 88: XSET CEO Greg Selkoe - adversity, addiction, & building a billion-dollar brand

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Ep. 88: XSET CEO Greg Selkoe - adversity, addiction, & building a billion-dollar brand · Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast

• 0:00
  Coming to you here from Adventures and Adversity.
• 0:03
  And for those of you who are new to the podcast, we've had quite
• 0:07
  a few stories essentially about how people turn trauma into
• 0:11
  triumph, turn adversity into adventure, get through all the
• 0:16
  the tough things in life, and we just have candid conversations
• 0:19
  about it. All right, So Greg, we're going
• 0:21
  to get into this, but essentially at a very high
• 0:24
  level. You founded Karma Loop in 2000
• 0:28
  in your parents basement. You built that up into one of
• 0:32
  the world's largest online St. wear, St. wear real retailers,
• 0:37
  surpassing 1 billion in lifetime revenue.
• 0:39
  Congratulations on that. You were the former president of
• 0:43
  Faze Clan. You now run Exet, a gaming
• 0:48
  company, gaming and beyond, right?
• 0:50
  All, all sorts of culture, all things that we're getting media,
• 0:54
  all of that. But essentially, I think what,
• 0:58
  what's super cool about you is no doubt through all these
• 1:01
  adventures, all these projects, life changing quests in the
• 1:07
  business world, right? I'm pretty sure you you've hit
• 1:11
  some adversity along the way. I have.
• 1:14
  Yeah. So we're going to get into that.
• 1:17
  I did want to start off by saying I think we have two
• 1:19
  things in common. We are both, let's see, you've
• 1:23
  touched in the tech world, obviously it's Silicon Valley.
• 1:26
  So I'm in that world right now with service now.
• 1:29
  And then also, I actually used to live in Boston too, where?
• 1:33
  You're yeah. Where?
• 1:34
  Yes, I was in Cambridge. I was undergrad at Harvard.
• 1:38
  Cambridge, right over there. OK you might be able to see my
• 1:42
  old dorm. It was probably wait 2022 years
• 1:45
  ago. Where'd you go?
• 1:47
  I went to Harvard undergrad. Yeah, I'm on Harvard alone.
• 1:51
  Yes, that's what I that's what I read about.
• 1:53
  Grad school, not undergrad. Yeah, I wasn't that smart.
• 1:56
  I, I, I will say I was, I was an athlete, so that was I, I'm sure
• 2:01
  that's a lot of what I brought to the table because I felt I
• 2:05
  felt a little imposter syndrome when I was there, but we.
• 2:07
  Can get what sport? I played softball.
• 2:10
  Oh. Awesome, that's.
• 2:11
  Cool. Yeah, so back in the day.
• 2:13
  But anyway, just wanted to say that.
• 2:14
  And then although I'm not a gamer, I, I, I will say my
• 2:18
  producer Jack, his girlfriend, he's going to be, he's going to
• 2:22
  be editing this episode. She is a gamer.
• 2:24
  So I'm kind of learning all about that.
• 2:25
  Her name's Nova Neon Live. So I'm like learning through her
• 2:29
  eyes all about this world. Yeah, cool.
• 2:32
  That's awesome. I mean you're just surprised
• 2:34
  almost everyone ages 12 to 34 as a gamer at this point.
• 2:40
  Right. Yeah, but my son's about to turn
• 2:42
  11 and he's definitely into it, so.
• 2:45
  Yeah, my son's, my son is 11 and into it.
• 2:50
  It's it's he's doing it. I'm his death when he has me for
• 2:52
  Father. Yeah, seriously.
• 2:55
  So Greg, when you when you hear the word adversity, is there
• 3:00
  specific things that come to mind or like what pops into your
• 3:03
  head when you hear the word adversity?
• 3:06
  Yeah, I mean, coming on this podcast and knowing we were
• 3:09
  going to talk about adversity, I thought about some of the
• 3:12
  adversity that I've dealt with him in, in my life, both in
• 3:16
  business and, and, and personally.
• 3:19
  You know, to me, adversity means, you know, some kind of
• 3:22
  challenge or difficulty or issue that you need to overcome in
• 3:30
  some way or fashion. So, you know, I've had health
• 3:34
  adversity, mental health adversity, business adversity,
• 3:41
  you know, I had a lot of learning issues growing up.
• 3:43
  So I had a lot of adversity at school.
• 3:46
  I got kicked out of a couple schools.
• 3:47
  And you know, so I've definitely felt, you know, that I've had to
• 3:52
  struggle a lot at, at different times.
• 3:54
  But I mean, everyone, you know, I think you talk to anyone,
• 3:57
  they, they have some, there's very few people would say, I
• 4:00
  don't, I haven't had adversity in my life.
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  It's the kind of a universal thing that we ought to deal
• 4:04
  with. For sure, for sure.
• 4:06
  And I think, you know, you look at Someone Like You, right?
• 4:09
  And I'm sure there's a lot of assumption, like they see where
• 4:12
  you are now and everything you've accomplished business
• 4:15
  wise, but yet might not have seen the the sweat equity.
• 4:20
  And I think you said on one podcast, you know, it takes 10
• 4:23
  years to become that overnight success.
• 4:25
  Like it's really easy to look at someone like you'd be like, wow,
• 4:29
  like wow, you know, I wish I could, you know, And it's like
• 4:31
  there is a whole lot of stories and a whole lot of like you were
• 4:35
  saying, UPS, downs that I don't think everybody gets to see.
• 4:40
  And that's why I appreciate you being willing to open up about
• 4:43
  that because I think you mentioned like mental health
• 4:46
  conversation. Let's just start there.
• 4:48
  I'm sure you'll talk a ton about business.
• 4:50
  But I love that you brought up mental health because you're a
• 4:54
  successful businessman. You're also a human being and
• 4:57
  that means you have both physical and mental health.
• 5:00
  Take me through any mental health adversity you've had and
• 5:04
  what has helped you get through that.
• 5:07
  Well, I'm sober and, you know, thank you.
• 5:13
  It'll be five years in May prior to and then I went through a
• 5:17
  period when I was when I was relapsing and, you know, off and
• 5:20
  on. Some do a year, you know, and
• 5:23
  then before that I was nine years sober.
• 5:25
  So, you know, and, and it's something that never goes away.
• 5:28
  You got to constantly, you know, address it.
• 5:32
  And, you know, I do a a not as much as I probably should, but
• 5:37
  you know, I definitely still do it.
• 5:38
  It's the important part of my, who I am.
• 5:43
  And, you know, I think it's, there's a lot that goes into
• 5:47
  being an alcoholic. I think there's family trauma
• 5:51
  type stuff and I learning disabilities and then there's
• 5:54
  genetics, obviously, you know, on my my grandmother's side and
• 6:00
  my father's side, there were nine brothers and sisters and
• 6:03
  seven of them died of alcoholism.
• 6:05
  So, you know, it's, it's definitely something that runs
• 6:09
  in families too. So, you know, my sister was an
• 6:12
  alcoholic. She's from the same genetic
• 6:14
  background. My parents aren't Alcoholics.
• 6:17
  Grandparents, yes. But you know, I, I definitely
• 6:22
  wouldn't change it. It's been a very important part
• 6:26
  of my life and a lot of negative, but ultimately, I
• 6:29
  think going into a A and having self-awareness as well about,
• 6:34
  you know, how important it is to understand what you can control
• 6:39
  and you can't control. It's very valuable in business
• 6:41
  too, right? Especially if you're not because
• 6:43
  there's going to be a lot of stuff you can't control and
• 6:45
  there's going to be a lot of stress and you can barely have
• 6:48
  enough time to focus on the things you can control.
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  So really knowing what where you can make a difference and and
• 6:55
  where you have to kind of go with the flow is very valuable
• 6:59
  from a business perspective. Yeah, for sure.
• 7:02
  It's a really good point and thanks for opening up about
• 7:04
  that. I always appreciate just the
• 7:07
  vulnerability when anyone shares like a recovery stories.
• 7:11
  We've had a lot of people in recovery on the podcast and I
• 7:15
  think it's just more and more common where friends I'm friends
• 7:20
  I have or guests I have or just like, you know, I'm not, this is
• 7:23
  not for me anymore. Or like for whatever reason,
• 7:26
  alcohol, drugs like just not adding anything net positive to
• 7:30
  your life. That was true for me for a very
• 7:33
  long time. I mean, I definitely started,
• 7:36
  you know, I started drinking when I was a young kid, like,
• 7:38
  you know, 8th grade or something like that.
• 7:41
  And it was never, I was never able to control it.
• 7:44
  It would always have negative repercussions.
• 7:46
  Like I, if I drank, I drank a lot, right?
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  So I wasn't someone who drank every day, but when I did drink,
• 7:52
  it was too much. And so, you know, I, I've kind
• 7:56
  of feel like I wasn't born with the off switch, like it's just
• 7:59
  kind of how I am. And I think it's, it's, there's
• 8:03
  nothing wrong. I'm not ashamed of it.
• 8:05
  It's just who I am. And I think, you know, it's
• 8:08
  everyone has, you know, you might have gout or you might
• 8:11
  have, you know, autoimmune disease, you might have
• 8:13
  whatever. And some people have alcoholism,
• 8:14
  right? So the problem is alcoholism.
• 8:17
  There's a lot of behavioral issues that can be embarrassing
• 8:20
  or create, you know, people to feel really like, wow, this
• 8:23
  guy's a crazy person. And it's in the nicest way, but
• 8:29
  fortunately I didn't have a lot of that.
• 8:30
  I had mostly there's people worried about me and you know,
• 8:36
  just people, you know, I, I, I didn't have any.
• 8:38
  I didn't never got arrested. I never had any major like, you
• 8:43
  know, not saying that I didn't put myself in bad situations.
• 8:45
  I certainly did. But, you know, it was really
• 8:48
  more just the cumulative impact of having to recover, having to
• 8:52
  kind of put my life back together, having to, you know,
• 8:56
  have my wife and, and folks that cared about me worrying about
• 8:59
  me. So, you know, and that's just, I
• 9:02
  was just lucky that it didn't make me violent.
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  It didn't make me do certain things that maybe do things
• 9:06
  where I would not be around or I'd be, you know, not my
• 9:11
  responsibilities wouldn't be good.
• 9:12
  But you know, that's just kind of you put a chemical on your
• 9:15
  body, you don't know what's going to happen.
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  In my case, it was more that I just would not want to be around
• 9:19
  people. I'd go off on my own and I drink
• 9:21
  and people wouldn't know where I was and they were worried about
• 9:23
  me and stuff like that. So, you know, it's something
• 9:26
  that, you know, ultimately it's a disease.
• 9:30
  And so like I like to talk about it just because I think it's
• 9:34
  important for folks that are struggling with it or may have a
• 9:38
  unrealistic expectation of what it means to be an alcoholic.
• 9:40
  If you have problems from drinking, you're an alcoholic or
• 9:43
  you don't have to call yourself an alcoholic, but you may need
• 9:45
  to be getting sober. I think one of the things that's
• 9:47
  really great about what I'm seeing kind of with with gamers
• 9:50
  and is they don't drink or a lot of them don't smoke weed or do
• 9:54
  you use drugs? It's very, very, it's not cool.
• 9:57
  It's not like a big I mean, drinking is almost completely
• 10:00
  out. Some people smokes weed, you
• 10:03
  know, and that's got its own problems.
• 10:04
  But still, even that's not particularly like popular.
• 10:08
  I mean, it's hard to game if you're.
• 10:09
  Aware strategy, yeah. It's not really like you're all
• 10:13
  zoned out or like passed out gaming, right?
• 10:16
  Yeah, but I mean, not not everything we I mean, as you
• 10:19
  mentioned in the intro, a lot of what we do is pop culture with
• 10:22
  gaming government center RIP. But yeah, you know, even in pop
• 10:25
  culture, I mean, in, in, you know, in hip hop, I still
• 10:28
  there's still a lot of talk about weed.
• 10:29
  But alcohol, I mean, it's just it's the world's changed.
• 10:32
  I mean, alcohol companies are struggling in, in the US and I
• 10:36
  think it's a good thing. I don't know if every reason
• 10:40
  that people aren't drinking anymore is good.
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  Some of it's like social media and other things that occupies
• 10:45
  their time or their focus. But net, net, I mean, less drunk
• 10:49
  driving less. I mean, you'd be surprised
• 10:52
  statistically how many people die of alcoholism that you don't
• 10:56
  realize it's alcoholism. Because even if, or out from
• 10:59
  alcohol, if, even if you get drunk once and you fall down the
• 11:01
  stairs, they may not count that as having something to do with
• 11:03
  being an alcoholic or drinking or whatever.
• 11:05
  But the, the amount of death and destruction that comes from
• 11:08
  being drunk above and beyond just the, the, the, you know,
• 11:13
  killing your liver or being even in a drunk driving accident,
• 11:16
  just much more mundane stuff. It's a huge percentage of
• 11:19
  accidental deaths or cause have alcohol or drugs have some some
• 11:23
  some influence on on what happened.
• 11:27
  Yeah, no, I appreciate you drawing attention to that
• 11:30
  because you know, it isn't. It's a it's, it's cool to be in
• 11:34
  control of your, of your behavior and your attitude and
• 11:38
  your actions. And especially if you're someone
• 11:40
  who's struggled with mental health.
• 11:42
  I definitely am very been open about like my just anxiety stuff
• 11:46
  like that. It certainly ain't going to
• 11:48
  help. You know, it might be a
• 11:49
  temporary Band-Aid, but the the high will come down right the
• 11:54
  next morning or whenever, whenever you stop trying to mask
• 11:56
  what it is you're. Hiding, Oh, it just it just
• 11:58
  makes it worse, makes your anxiety worse, by the way, then
• 12:00
  you have a bunch of things that you that are actually real that
• 12:03
  you might have to be anxious about done that you're concerned
• 12:07
  like shit, I didn't show up for this or whatever.
• 12:09
  It's just, it's a it's, it's not a good, it's not a good tool for
• 12:14
  anxiety. Yeah, well, and and I think a
• 12:18
  great segue from there and thanks again for being open
• 12:21
  about that. Like you're obviously you got
• 12:23
  you're clear headed. You don't you don't like do the
• 12:25
  shame spiral thing anymore, which I think a lot of times
• 12:28
  when you get that hangover, I've definitely been there.
• 12:31
  What do you do now when you find yourself, you know, whether
• 12:33
  you're as a father, as a husband, as a businessman,
• 12:37
  you're a philanthropist, How do you self regulate now?
• 12:41
  Like how do you or how do you deal with emotions?
• 12:45
  And I'm not saying you used alcohol to do that before, but
• 12:48
  what what are your coping tools now?
• 12:51
  I mean, I very much, I, I used alcohol to like to blow off
• 12:54
  stress. Like I wouldn't drink for a
• 12:56
  couple weeks and then I'd just like go fucking just go bananas,
• 13:00
  right. So that was a, that was a bit of
• 13:04
  a transition. It was hard, you know, you know,
• 13:07
  but most of like, you know, so out of the last 20 years, I
• 13:11
  probably, you know, drank 8 or 9 times, right.
• 13:16
  So it's not been a been a lot because, you know, I had, I had
• 13:19
  to relapse. It wasn't like I would just go
• 13:20
  out and start drinking and I'd stop and I'd go back to, and I
• 13:23
  tried to, and it was, you know, something that lasted a few
• 13:26
  days. But the, the, the, you know, you
• 13:31
  have to learn other mechanisms. I, I don't think I'm perfect at
• 13:34
  it. I mean, I sometimes I overeat.
• 13:36
  I try to exercise, I try to coach my son's hockey team.
• 13:39
  It's really fun for me when I'm out, you know, I didn't, it's
• 13:43
  not an added stressor. It's actually, you know, once I
• 13:45
  get out there, I'm thinking about teaching the kids and, and
• 13:48
  playing. So it's just like completely
• 13:49
  erases your stress, you know, in terms of you can't really think
• 13:54
  about stress at that moment. So I think, you know, I, I would
• 13:58
  say I'm not perfect at that. I still have, I, I still have,
• 14:03
  you know, times I'm very, very, I feel very stressed out.
• 14:07
  But you know, I, I try to meditate.
• 14:08
  I try, I do, I, you know, I do. I go skating, I walk a lot.
• 14:14
  I walk a lot. Like walking is a big piece of,
• 14:17
  of, of getting, you know, I live in a city.
• 14:19
  I don't have a car personally. We have a car in the family, but
• 14:22
  I, you know, it's most to take the kids around.
• 14:24
  I walk, there'll be many, many days where I won't be in a car,
• 14:28
  you know, where I'll just walk everywhere.
• 14:29
  And that is, I can't tell you what an absolute pleasure that
• 14:33
  is and how crazy it is that, you know, we built this country so
• 14:36
  that no one can walk where I can literally go to CVSI can go to
• 14:40
  the grocery store, I can go to the, you know, the tailor.
• 14:43
  I can go like anything I want to do, I can either take the train
• 14:46
  or walk. And that's to me is like one of
• 14:48
  the biggest privileges of, of having some, you know, having,
• 14:52
  having some success in living in a place where I can do that.
• 14:56
  And like, yeah, 'cause I mean, for me, when I lived in LA and I
• 15:00
  lived in LA for five years, I purposely lived in West
• 15:03
  Hollywood because, you know, so I could walk.
• 15:05
  And then when I had my startup, I just had people come to me.
• 15:09
  I had already had some success. So I was, it was a different
• 15:11
  than like the first time. We were trying to prove
• 15:12
  yourself, like, hey, look, if you want to meet, come, come see
• 15:15
  me. I lived across the street from
• 15:17
  the solo house, so I'd have meetings there all the time.
• 15:19
  And then when I was at Phase Clan and we had a big office, it
• 15:23
  was about 3 1/2 miles away, but I'd walk in a lot, right?
• 15:27
  I walk right down sunset. And it was amazing to me that
• 15:30
  almost no one in LA was walking. And it was like perfect weather.
• 15:34
  And if I got in a, if I got a car to try to go to work,
• 15:37
  sometimes could take an hour just to go 3 1/2 miles.
• 15:40
  So, you know, I, I think, you know, there's a lot of things,
• 15:44
  cars, family, text messages, a lot of things that trigger us to
• 15:51
  have a lot of stress. You know, I, I've, I've overcome
• 15:55
  a lot of stress, like a lot. I've had a couple major business
• 15:59
  issues, failures. I had a major health, health
• 16:01
  issues. Sorry my dogs didn't look.
• 16:03
  Pretty. That's OK, no worries.
• 16:04
  I got my dog right there. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:07
  Aussie Shepherd, I saw your dog coming in.
• 16:09
  It looks like so, you know, I, I, I had, I had a very bad
• 16:17
  health scare where I thought I was going to die at one point.
• 16:19
  So you know, you, you have these experiences and then you kind
• 16:23
  of, and I think a, a is a big part of how I manage stress,
• 16:27
  right? You can, you can talk about
• 16:28
  things. I can tell if I haven't been to
• 16:30
  a meeting for a while. And I thank you for bringing
• 16:32
  this up cuz tomorrow I'm going to go to a meeting.
• 16:34
  Hey, happy to be home. But you know, it allows you to.
• 16:39
  I think one of the things that's interesting about going to a a
• 16:41
  meetings. First of all, I've met some
• 16:42
  amazing people. I've met investors there.
• 16:44
  I've met business. I mean, it's the whole spectrum
• 16:47
  of every, every you can have a priest, a rabbi guy for, you
• 16:52
  know, they say Yale to jail. You can have a oh, Yale.
• 16:55
  To jail you. Know you can have you know, some
• 16:58
  of those seems like there's no hope and then you see him a year
• 17:01
  later and they're like amazing literally people I used to see
• 17:03
  in front of the 711 are totally normal people that you wouldn't
• 17:06
  know and then you have you know you have he's.
• 17:11
  He's happy about it. That's OK.
• 17:13
  I think the dog Walker's a little yeah.
• 17:16
  Blockade. Hey I'm on a call list.
• 17:20
  It's like you're a dog person. That's awesome.
• 17:22
  Yeah, I love my. Dogs.
• 17:23
  Dogs are my homeless. I have, I have 4 cats too.
• 17:26
  So yeah, that's another way that you deal with stress is have a
• 17:29
  dog. Oh yeah.
• 17:31
  For sure, but but you meet all different kinds of people.
• 17:34
  You realize that everyone's there and one of the things that
• 17:36
  I think that A, does this help you get out of yourself.
• 17:39
  It helps you not just focus on all your issues and realize
• 17:43
  first of all, you can hear stuff that's far worse than anything
• 17:46
  you're going on. There's someone else going
• 17:47
  through something where somewhere and it gives you a lot
• 17:50
  more perspective that everyone's got challenges.
• 17:52
  You're walking around thinking, I'm mad about this, so this
• 17:54
  doesn't go right, but everyone else around seems like they're
• 17:56
  fine. They're all going through
• 17:58
  everyone else. You're interacting with it.
• 17:59
  You don't think maybe has any issues dealing with some kind of
• 18:02
  issue And you know, we don't always disclose that to each
• 18:05
  other. And sometimes in business it's
• 18:06
  not the right time to be talking about that stuff.
• 18:09
  So, you know, I think perspective is a big thing.
• 18:13
  I like to listen to. Like I listen to or read but
• 18:17
  listen mostly listen to a lot of the like Stoic philosophy love.
• 18:21
  Stoicism. Yeah, and, and different and
• 18:23
  different philosophical, you know, approaches to, to things.
• 18:28
  I read, I, I read a lot of historical stuff.
• 18:30
  And so you can read stuff about like World War 2 or you read
• 18:33
  about, you know, the Civil War and stuff.
• 18:36
  I mean, people went through a lot of bad stuff.
• 18:38
  So, you know, I think sitting around just saying, oh, it's
• 18:41
  poor me is not going to get you anywhere.
• 18:43
  And, and I think when you have certain people you can talk to,
• 18:46
  I have a great relationship with my wife, a great relation with
• 18:48
  my kids. I mean, I'm very lucky.
• 18:50
  So all those things help absorb some of the impact.
• 18:53
  Certainly. I have my days, believe me.
• 18:56
  Absolutely no. And again, it's I saw some video
• 19:00
  or meme or, or something where it's like everyone driving on a
• 19:04
  freeway and above every car is something different that they're
• 19:07
  all worried about, but you just don't know, you know, and if and
• 19:10
  if you're in kind of a, a more mellow time, just be grateful
• 19:13
  and like, you know, things change on a dime, right?
• 19:16
  I have very few mellow times frankly.
• 19:18
  And I mean, look, I'm building a company right now and we're
• 19:21
  raising capital. We're going through challenges.
• 19:24
  Things don't work. I mean, you know, you have to
• 19:26
  let people go. I mean, there's a lot of like,
• 19:29
  you know, I'm by no means am I like, like coasting right now.
• 19:33
  I mean, that's what I choose to do.
• 19:34
  That's what I like to do is build companies.
• 19:36
  But you know, I wouldn't recommend if if if you have a
• 19:40
  hard time processing stress. I mean, I do the exact wrong job
• 19:44
  for someone with an alcohol problem, let me tell you, But
• 19:46
  like I, I have not, you know, you get to the point where you
• 19:50
  realize like those solutions are not going to work right, Like
• 19:53
  these quick solutions, you're going to have to find something
• 19:55
  else. And if you, you know, once you
• 19:57
  kind of fully internalize, like, hey, that's actually going to
• 20:00
  make everything worse. You had all the stress I have
• 20:02
  now and then you throw in like a nuclear bomb of stress, you
• 20:05
  know, so, so it doesn't, it's not really an option in my mind
• 20:08
  anymore, But you know, I. Yeah, I've had my ups and downs
• 20:13
  and, and I mean, I've had a lot of success in business and
• 20:15
  people oftentimes say that to me, but I've had a lot of
• 20:17
  challenges. I've had many years where I've
• 20:19
  struggled in my. You know, this business has been
• 20:22
  really hard. I mean, it's doing well, but
• 20:24
  it's taken like 3 times as long as I wanted and it's required me
• 20:29
  to be like, look, I just can't give up.
• 20:30
  Like, you know, I put myself in situation where there's no,
• 20:34
  there's no option but to not give up because I put my own
• 20:37
  money in and I do, I have a lot of people that I know that rely
• 20:40
  on me and put their money in. So I feel an obligation to make
• 20:43
  sure that whatever it takes, like I got to leave it all in
• 20:46
  the field to make sure that this thing is a success or get some
• 20:49
  kind of outcome, because I don't want to, you know, I don't, I, I
• 20:53
  want to be able to look people in the eye and say I did
• 20:55
  everything I could. And, and ultimately, you know,
• 20:58
  doing everything I could means doing whatever it has to, I have
• 21:00
  to do and staying as long as I have to and taking as much pain
• 21:03
  as I have to to make sure the company succeeds well.
• 21:08
  I love your attitude and it and you were talking about this on
• 21:10
  another podcast too, just about, you know, the willingness to
• 21:14
  like put it. You're not asking anyone to do
• 21:17
  things that you wouldn't do. You've put in the time, you
• 21:20
  know, you all, you pay your dues, but you're you said you
• 21:22
  were looking for people who want to go the extra mile, right?
• 21:25
  Like it's and I think it what you said, leave it all on the
• 21:28
  field. My dad's like East Coast born in
• 21:30
  Buffalo, NY. My mom's South African, So I got
• 21:33
  like a huge mix, but he's like Bree, No bullshit.
• 21:37
  Leave it all on the field, right?
• 21:39
  Like you really have to be tenacious, right?
• 21:43
  Like, nobody's going to feel sorry for you in business,
• 21:46
  right? Like.
• 21:47
  No one gives a shit like. No one cares.
• 21:50
  Like, you know, when I'm in there and it's lonely sometimes
• 21:53
  being the, the, the CEO or the founder, because you really
• 21:57
  don't, you can't really complain to anyone.
• 22:00
  I mean, I talked to my wife a lot, but she'll say things to me
• 22:03
  like, Hey, well, you, you should, you did this or you
• 22:06
  shouldn't have done that. So, you know, if you're in
• 22:08
  business, you, you and you're the CEO, you got to kind of just
• 22:10
  swallow the, the stress a lot because the fact is like,
• 22:14
  there's no one, you know, at the end of the day, you chose to be
• 22:17
  an entrepreneur, You chose to do this.
• 22:18
  There's no one's going to really feel sorry for you.
• 22:21
  Or look, I called my dad, I talked to my wife, but you know,
• 22:24
  they'll tell me like, well, you're saying that, but why did
• 22:26
  you do this? And now you're dealing with
• 22:27
  that. And so, you know, that's the
• 22:31
  facts are, you know, but it's very hard when you're not to
• 22:34
  hurt. It's very hard to make all right
• 22:36
  decisions. There's always going to be
• 22:37
  someone who's like, oh, that was stupid.
• 22:39
  Why do you do? If I was the boss, I'd do it
• 22:40
  this way. Well, like what companies have
• 22:42
  you started? Actually, you know, and I have a
• 22:44
  lot of people lecture me on the on the investment side, who are
• 22:49
  investing other people's money and never started a company in
• 22:52
  their life, right. So it can be frustrating, but
• 22:54
  you got to kind of, you have to, you have to, can't be bitter.
• 22:59
  You have to be. You have to understand like the
• 23:01
  world is the way it is and like all that's great, but you still
• 23:03
  have to be successful. You still have to find a way to
• 23:05
  succeed. Yeah, yeah.
• 23:07
  How do you think, how would you describe your leadership style
• 23:12
  and who are your, who are like your mentors, your Hey, that's a
• 23:16
  good leader to me. Yeah.
• 23:18
  So my, my leadership style, I think is, you know, I definitely
• 23:25
  lead from the front, you know, like if, if, if, if there's been
• 23:28
  times where you had to hold pay or do, I'll be the first one to
• 23:31
  do it. You know, I put a lot of our own
• 23:33
  money into the, my own money into the business.
• 23:35
  So I'm taking big risks. A lot of people say, Oh, don't
• 23:37
  ever invest your own money in your business.
• 23:38
  I, I go completely the opposite direction, which is for better
• 23:42
  or worse. But I, because if I see like
• 23:44
  something needs something, I and I can't provide it some other
• 23:47
  way, I'm going to do it. Like I'm all in to do it.
• 23:49
  So I like to think I listen to folks and I delegate and that,
• 23:56
  you know, that I'm, I, I'm a positive leader.
• 24:00
  You know, I, and I've definitely gotten a lot of people to follow
• 24:04
  me through really crazy situations to get to the other
• 24:06
  side. I think, you know, as a leader,
• 24:09
  sometimes I, I, I, I'm incomplete, my communications, I
• 24:14
  can get really stuck in like one thing or I like to do a lot of
• 24:17
  the work myself as well as a founder, you know, and like, you
• 24:20
  know, sometimes I don't, you know, I forget about the flock
• 24:23
  and I'm worried about what I'm doing.
• 24:24
  And so you need to find that balance where you're taking care
• 24:26
  of the employees. I think if you asked my
• 24:29
  employees, they would say he, he pushes us too hard sometimes,
• 24:33
  right. I'm very much a like, you know,
• 24:36
  I'm very, I'm very clear with my employees, like, or, or folks
• 24:40
  that join the companies like, look, I, I believe in the
• 24:43
  concept of work life balance. It's a great thing for a lot of
• 24:46
  people. Unfortunately, what we're trying
• 24:48
  to do is so hard. There's just not going to be
• 24:50
  work life balance, not for now. And it may be something if you
• 24:52
  like this and you want to come in and work a few years and do
• 24:56
  it this way and then go off and find a job that totally respect
• 24:59
  that. But like, it's so hard to build
• 25:01
  a business. The idea that you can, you can
• 25:04
  build a business from scratch, especially when I always do
• 25:06
  stuff that's kind of new and not, you know, it's kind of
• 25:10
  cutting edge. And so you don't have like a
• 25:11
  blueprint. The reality is like I'm, I'm on
• 25:14
  all the time, like, you know, and, and, and we have to, and,
• 25:18
  but you know, I, I find people, we try to have fun while we're
• 25:21
  doing it. We don't like each other, right.
• 25:22
  You know, we've, I've had times where we've had employees who
• 25:24
  don't like each other and that doesn't work right now.
• 25:27
  We happen to have a team of people that all, you know, we
• 25:30
  Becker and whatever, but I think everyone really likes each
• 25:32
  other. Everyone wants everyone to
• 25:33
  succeed. I definitely incentivize my
• 25:35
  employees. I mean, I've given a huge
• 25:37
  percentage of the company relative to what most people do
• 25:40
  to the top employees that I think, you know, deserve it and
• 25:44
  will benefit for us. So, you know, I think the, the,
• 25:47
  to me, the work life balance is a different form, which is like
• 25:50
  making work your life, but in a way that has some balance.
• 25:53
  Like, you know, maybe we, you know, as we go, especially as I
• 25:56
  become companies, I've been are more successful.
• 25:58
  I like to do fun stuff. I mean, we go do trips and have
• 26:01
  dinners and you know, but it very much is like a all, all out
• 26:07
  type of thing to build a company.
• 26:09
  You got to work your ass off. Like there's just no way around
• 26:12
  it. Like I, my dad is like in my, in
• 26:14
  my brain right now. And I find that honestly, I
• 26:18
  don't want to generalize, but I was born in Buffalo, lived there
• 26:22
  till I was 3, then grew up in Irvine.
• 26:24
  I will say and, and feel free to tell me that I'm wrong or I'm
• 26:27
  right. East Coast.
• 26:29
  There's a there's a grit and there's like that old school
• 26:33
  mentality of like, get in there and like just get shit done.
• 26:38
  My dad sort of raised me that way.
• 26:39
  Like get in there. Like keep your chin up like
• 26:43
  that, that old school just like. Yeah, I mean, I I like that, but
• 26:47
  I don't know anything else. You know, I grew up in Boston.
• 26:49
  Boston is even East Coast is probably the far end of that.
• 26:53
  Like get your shit together, kid.
• 26:55
  Don't worry about it. Like, you know, tough, tough,
• 26:58
  tough, tough, like play in, you know, like so.
• 27:02
  And and it could be, it can be brutal.
• 27:04
  But I think, you know, some of the things that my parents, I
• 27:07
  mean, I didn't, I haven't always had a good relationship with.
• 27:09
  I have a great one now. But you know, we like always
• 27:12
  show up. If you tell someone you're gonna
• 27:14
  do something, do it, own your mistakes.
• 27:16
  I mean, everything that we don't do in this country anymore.
• 27:19
  And I'm, I'm a progressive, so I'm not like saying this from a
• 27:22
  conservative point of view, but you know, the, the idea that
• 27:25
  like you, you show up, you treat people like you want to be
• 27:27
  treated. You don't have if, if, if you
• 27:30
  need to take the garbage out and you're the CEO, you take the
• 27:32
  garbage out. It's not even a question, right?
• 27:34
  And which I do still often, or I pick up the office, I pick up
• 27:38
  stuff in the office or whatever. Like you can't be too good to do
• 27:42
  anything, right? And I, I, you know, sometimes
• 27:45
  there's been times where I had to raise very small amounts of
• 27:47
  money just to get, keep the lights on for a set.
• 27:50
  And I'm dealing with very small time people.
• 27:51
  And then I'm like, I've done a deal where, you know, someone
• 27:54
  wired me, you know, 50 million bucks in an investment, but I'm
• 27:57
  also trying to raise 25 sometimes, you know, and you
• 28:00
  have to treat them all the same and treat.
• 28:02
  And like, there's times when the, when you're in those
• 28:05
  positions where you're kind of struggling and you kind of need
• 28:08
  whatever you need to do to keep the lights on and you're going
• 28:10
  to, you know, borrow or you can't get discouraged and be
• 28:13
  like, wait, wait a second. I was in the room with this guy
• 28:15
  or I, I, I worked with Jimmy Ivine or I worked with Pharrell.
• 28:18
  These are both the folks that I've done work with and I know,
• 28:21
  and now I got to go to this guy who's going to lend me like, you
• 28:24
  know, 75K. Look how, how, how my, how my,
• 28:29
  how the money have fallen. But you just can't think about
• 28:31
  it that way. You got to think about it like I
• 28:34
  got to get the, you know, as long as you're not breaking the
• 28:36
  law, do what you got to do to get the job done.
• 28:38
  Because ultimately, you know, if you're too good to do something
• 28:42
  or too you know, you're, I've been too high to do something in
• 28:45
  another realm, you're ultimately going to fail.
• 28:48
  Yeah, Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
• 28:50
  And, and real talk on that note, like you went to Harvard for
• 28:55
  grad school. I was undergrad.
• 28:57
  I will say like there was, and, and again, I'm not trying to
• 29:01
  like knock, I'm just being real. I think I the part of like the
• 29:06
  I'm too good for this or I'm from this school.
• 29:09
  So I that, that part for me is sort of like it's, I look at the
• 29:13
  opportunities for education as like something you should be
• 29:16
  grateful for, but it doesn't necessarily be like, Hey, I have
• 29:19
  a degree from Harvard. So like, what's up, you know?
• 29:21
  It's like. You know, sometimes I'm like
• 29:25
  Harvard and people, and you're like, no, I'm not.
• 29:30
  I don't know the 22 sort of elite areas I've been in because
• 29:34
  I've had, you know, for me, it was actually a doubly amazing
• 29:38
  thing that went to Harvard because I had a lot of problems
• 29:40
  in high school. I was like a troubled kid.
• 29:42
  And then I somehow turned it around and so, and there's
• 29:46
  always a joke like in people who know me like, well, how the hell
• 29:49
  is that? The, the, you know, and then I
• 29:52
  got into Y Combinator, which is equally A prestigious, you know,
• 29:55
  16,000 businesses apply, 100 get in or whatever, a, a, a cohort.
• 30:00
  And you know, those things are valuable because when you're
• 30:04
  raising money or when you're trying to get doors open, you
• 30:06
  use them. But ultimately, like I don't
• 30:09
  like to I don't like to I actually went through like sort
• 30:13
  of a love hate relationship with Harvard, but I didn't like it
• 30:15
  for a while. As I've gotten older now, I
• 30:18
  really appreciate the fact that, you know, with all the sort of
• 30:22
  everything that's projected on Harvard as being this like
• 30:26
  elitist institution, there's a lot of people that aren't like
• 30:28
  that there. And there's a lot of people who
• 30:29
  just want to be around the best and the smartest and whatever.
• 30:33
  And then the best of the smartest aren't all just at
• 30:35
  Harvard. But and I felt like AY
• 30:37
  combinator see, people were very you know, yeah, that guy, you
• 30:40
  know, Michael Sebold, who was my cohort leader, wound up being
• 30:43
  the CEO there. He was the one of the four
• 30:44
  founders of twitch And you know, that guy started Airbnb and it
• 30:48
  like there was so many like massive people in this in the
• 30:52
  Silicon Valley world and the ones that were involved in the Y
• 30:55
  common areas. But I think if you weren't kind
• 30:57
  of like this type of person, you probably wouldn't have gotten
• 30:59
  involved to begin with. Very much were like humble
• 31:01
  wanted to help, wanted to help entrepreneurs what we're
• 31:05
  accessible. We're not like, hey, I started
• 31:07
  this company, you know, I'm the best.
• 31:08
  Now you run into those people at Harvard and at in Silicon Valley
• 31:12
  for sure that are just real Dicks basically.
• 31:15
  But you know, there's, there's a lot of people who actually the
• 31:19
  good parts of those institutions, which is trying to
• 31:22
  like, you know, I mean, Veritas like truth, right?
• 31:26
  Trying to find the, the most, you know, most best and pure
• 31:33
  answer. There's a lot of people there.
• 31:34
  You know, my dad, my dad's at Harvard.
• 31:36
  He's a, he's in the medical, in the medical system.
• 31:41
  He didn't go there, but he's, you know, and like they, they do
• 31:44
  incredible work, right? He's a scientist and you know,
• 31:47
  it's a Harvard affiliated teaching hospital and you know,
• 31:52
  the doctors there, you know, a lot of them are not like what
• 31:55
  you would think in a stereotype like with a pipe or like A and a
• 31:59
  bow tie. They're they're people really
• 32:00
  just want to want to solve solve problems.
• 32:03
  Yeah, yeah. No, totally.
• 32:05
  I just thought it was interesting.
• 32:06
  Whenever, whenever I hear someone has a Harvard
• 32:09
  connection, I always like to hear about the experience
• 32:11
  because it was a yeah, it was an interesting experience as a
• 32:13
  younger person. I wish I could go back now with
• 32:16
  a little bit more of the the spine and confidence.
• 32:19
  Not when I was 18, but you know, you live and learn, right?
• 32:23
  Let's talk about, we talked about kind of like different
• 32:25
  personas and business and you're obviously a real authentic guy
• 32:30
  and everything I'm learning about life and research and
• 32:34
  psychology. It's all up.
• 32:35
  Oh come on, man. OK, come on.
• 32:39
  Thank. You.
• 32:44
  I have her back. He's Oh, yeah.
• 32:47
  He's got like barking a squirrel.
• 32:50
  It's all about authenticity, right?
• 32:53
  When you're in business, right? Let's, I mean, we'll talk
• 32:55
  personal too, but tell me how that plays into how you conduct
• 33:01
  yourself as a leader, how you do deals.
• 33:04
  Like how does authenticity play into that for you?
• 33:08
  Yeah, I mean, I think authenticity is really important
• 33:13
  and I think part of the reason I've been able to do some stuff
• 33:15
  that's really hard or kind of pull out wins when it's I'll be
• 33:18
  like, shit, I'm fucking scared. I don't know what's going on.
• 33:21
  Like we I need help and you know, I've had mentor, you know,
• 33:23
  you asked me about the mentors I've had.
• 33:25
  You know, when when I started Carmel Loop, I was able to get a
• 33:28
  guy who was Sam Gerson, who was president of Finance Basement
• 33:33
  was like a retail legend. I got Frank Este to invest who
• 33:38
  we've started Marshalls and then more recently, you know, I would
• 33:41
  consider her one of my mentors as Mindy Grossman, who was the
• 33:44
  CEO of Home Shopping Network. She's been just an enable
• 33:47
  supporter. And so like another guy named
• 33:51
  Blair Lacourt that I'm now friends with.
• 33:53
  You know, and I think one of the things I'm good at with
• 33:57
  authenticity sort of as like a central point is like I can get
• 34:01
  people to want to help me because because I'm not trying
• 34:04
  to bullshit them. I mean, I may, I may have often
• 34:07
  times here where you have an overly view of what's going on
• 34:10
  or whatever, but I think it comes from a real place, which
• 34:13
  is that's how I build things as I kind of will it into
• 34:16
  existence. But but I think that, you know,
• 34:21
  and I try to help other people. Like there was there was a woman
• 34:23
  who's an entrepreneur. I don't know her very well, but
• 34:26
  I met her through Shannon Allen, who's Ray Allen, the basketball
• 34:29
  player's wife. She's an amazing entrepreneur.
• 34:31
  She has a company called grown, which is like a healthy fast
• 34:34
  food place in Miami. My, she's franchising and she
• 34:38
  introduced me to her and like, she called me up like, Hey, I'm
• 34:43
  like, I'm going to like, I need AI need a bridge for, you know,
• 34:47
  150K or this company's like dead.
• 34:49
  And I've been working and I had met with her once and I didn't,
• 34:53
  I couldn't give her a bridge at that point.
• 34:54
  I would have if I could have, but I, I have everything tied up
• 34:57
  here and I, you know, if I'm going to put money, I'm going to
• 34:59
  put it into my own thing right now.
• 35:01
  So, but I, I, I, you know, I don't know her that well, but I,
• 35:05
  I, I, I over a few weeks, I make calls whatever week and I got
• 35:09
  her some, I got someone to lend her the 150K.
• 35:11
  And I didn't just do that for, for, for my, to feel good about
• 35:17
  myself. I did it because I want people
• 35:18
  to know that when I'm asking them to help me, I will do the
• 35:21
  same for someone else and I will be there for someone else.
• 35:24
  Like, you know, if, if, if, if you're genuinely willing to help
• 35:27
  other people who need help and need mentorship.
• 35:29
  I think other people who mentor see that in you.
• 35:32
  Because if you're just someone who like, hey, I'm just going to
• 35:34
  take and not give. You're the type of person that
• 35:37
  what are the people who do give are going to be like?
• 35:39
  I don't I'm not feeling this. Yeah, no, for sure.
• 35:44
  I love that. It it all, pay it forward it
• 35:46
  all. It always comes back, you know.
• 35:48
  And talk to me about what you're doing now.
• 35:51
  Obviously you are. You've come through ups and
• 35:56
  downs in business and now let's see in was it in 2020 that you
• 36:00
  started ex Set? So we're, we're over, we're 5
• 36:03
  1/2 years old now. You know, when I so I've been at
• 36:07
  phase plan, which was a, a very large, when I got there wasn't,
• 36:12
  but we in a couple years we were able to turn into a pretty big
• 36:15
  business and brand. There were some things that I
• 36:17
  didn't like about the culture and the brand already existed.
• 36:20
  It was the first brand that I didn't start myself and they
• 36:24
  have some directional things that they didn't want to do.
• 36:26
  I had 4 founders and I had a partner.
• 36:28
  So I got them to buy me out. At a certain point I was like,
• 36:31
  look, life's too short. I don't want to fight.
• 36:32
  Like, you know, you guys have a vision that does, doesn't allow
• 36:35
  my vision. We're worth a lot of money now
• 36:39
  just buy my equity. And they they did that.
• 36:40
  So that was great. They went up going public like
• 36:43
  three years after I went, they went up to about a 1.6 billion
• 36:46
  in value. But by the time the lock up
• 36:48
  period was over, it was like 0. So they lost.
• 36:50
  So thank God I did that. But I've had some situations
• 36:54
  where it's the timing's wrong and I've held on too long.
• 36:56
  And in that case, it was, I got out at the right time.
• 36:58
  But you know, and from that experience I saw like, OK,
• 37:02
  here's what I liked, it worked. And here's what I think, you
• 37:05
  know, I don't want to do. And so the, the general thesis
• 37:10
  is like gaming. There's 3.5 billion people that
• 37:12
  game worldwide, 45% of the women, all different
• 37:16
  backgrounds. Gaming is so much bigger than
• 37:18
  people know. And just like sports or other
• 37:21
  large pastimes, cultures grow up around it, right?
• 37:24
  And there's a big element, not the full 3.5 billion, but a big
• 37:29
  element of 12 to 34 year olds that look at gaming not as
• 37:32
  competitive like E sports, that has its own sort of culture.
• 37:35
  And we we dabble in that and there's some crossover, but our
• 37:37
  focus is on gaming as as pop culture.
• 37:40
  So like we call it pop gaming. There's a term the coin and the
• 37:45
  concept is a game. How gaming influences music,
• 37:47
  fashion, art, entertainment and traditional sports.
• 37:50
  So we have a bunch of content creators that are under our
• 37:53
  umbrella. We didn't know exactly how we
• 37:54
  were going to do this, but we said a brand like Barstool,
• 37:57
  Bleach Report, you know, these ones that I just mentioned, they
• 37:59
  need to exist for for gaming. And so over time, we started
• 38:03
  doing deals with the NFL, the NBA, the Boston Red Sox that
• 38:06
  started with sort of sports teams.
• 38:08
  I think got to a point where, you know, we're able to do deals
• 38:10
  with Samsung, Spotify, Gatorade, Nike, McDonald's, Amazon,
• 38:14
  Google, NBC Universal. So I mean big and these brands
• 38:18
  wanted to work with us because we have the eyeballs attention
• 38:20
  of millions of 12 to 34 year olds with sweet spots like 18 to
• 38:24
  25 and they need our audience like they need oxygen and
• 38:27
  traditional media is dying. This is where this is where
• 38:30
  people are spending their time in this age group.
• 38:32
  And we based essentially, we create content, you know, or
• 38:35
  help others create content on TikTok, YouTube and Twitch.
• 38:39
  We're brand safe. Obviously, because we work with
• 38:42
  these big brands. We would they wouldn't be
• 38:44
  working with us if we were being super toxic or you're not.
• 38:46
  We're furthesting from the man as you can imagine.
• 38:50
  Just watch that documentary that Lewis throat it.
• 38:52
  I mean, awful humans, but the, you know, we try to be positive.
• 38:57
  We like to say we're like the baddest good guys on the planet.
• 38:59
  I mean, we still have swagger, we still have style.
• 39:02
  We still want to have fun. We're not like pedantic.
• 39:04
  We're not involved in politics or some of the other stuff
• 39:06
  that's very divisive. But you know, at the end of the
• 39:09
  day, we want good to happen in the world, right?
• 39:11
  Even if we're not day-to-day doing stuff like clicks is our
• 39:15
  our our biggest star. He's, you know, he, he raised I
• 39:20
  think 100 and $10,000 for Dana Farmer recently.
• 39:24
  Did you know the marathon walking was the second highest
• 39:28
  fundraiser gives away PCs to kids like, you know, there's an
• 39:32
  element of like we want to be, we want to have good impact,
• 39:35
  right, without being like, you know, goody 2 shoots either.
• 39:38
  So and I think like that's resonated with people over time
• 39:42
  because they're we are different than a lot of the folks out
• 39:45
  there. And we've also got a bunch of
• 39:48
  celebrities that game with us, like little Wayne Ozuna, sway
• 39:51
  lead, Grizzly, folks from the NFL, the NBA, because they're
• 39:55
  all authentically gamers, right? Like, you know, and they like
• 39:57
  gaming culture. They just happen to be famous or
• 39:59
  known for other reasons. So they're like, passionate,
• 40:01
  yeah. So, you know, we're, we're at
• 40:03
  the end of the day, we're a media brand, gaming's our hook.
• 40:06
  But ultimately, like we, we touch anything we think's
• 40:09
  interesting and you're really just getting started.
• 40:12
  I mean, you have to. The reason why I was able to
• 40:15
  help make Phase Clan really big financially quickly.
• 40:20
  They didn't have any revenue when I got there.
• 40:21
  And two years later we had like 36 million was because they
• 40:25
  already had built an audience. I didn't build their audience.
• 40:27
  They had built an audience. They had built a fan base.
• 40:29
  They had millions of fans when I got there.
• 40:31
  They, they, they hadn't monetized them.
• 40:32
  They didn't know how to do business, but So what we've done
• 40:36
  over the last five years is, you know, the last four 4 was just
• 40:41
  getting people to know who we are and building an audience and
• 40:43
  getting people like Clicks and Mr. Savage and Frantic and Tee
• 40:50
  Grizzly. Some of these folks to want to
• 40:52
  work with us and want to start building stuff and start being
• 40:54
  associated with the brand. So now we're at this very
• 40:56
  interesting inflection point where we're very well known.
• 40:58
  We're definitely like have some first mover advantage on a lot
• 41:01
  of stuff and we're starting to now really monitor.
• 41:05
  We just signed a a huge deal with the tech company.
• 41:08
  We're not signed. We got today, we got to prove we
• 41:10
  still have to get signed. That's like game changing for
• 41:12
  us. So today's a historic day in
• 41:14
  excess history. So you're talking to us on that
• 41:16
  day. But yeah, we're still always out
• 41:19
  of money because we're growing and we should invest.
• 41:21
  So I deal with that on a regular basis and it's stressful.
• 41:25
  But I mean, at this point, we're really at the point now where
• 41:28
  within the next couple months it would be, we'll have a lot of
• 41:31
  people who'd want to invest in the, the, the, the future of the
• 41:35
  business. Because it's really starting to
• 41:37
  become really evident that we're going to, we're going to be a
• 41:39
  big deal. And that, you know, our goal is
• 41:41
  to build a company that's, you know, the my, you know, my, my
• 41:46
  company, Carmel, the first company I started like the
• 41:48
  highest valuation goes about 300 million.
• 41:51
  You know, phase obviously got 1.8 billion, but I don't think
• 41:53
  it was real. But you know, when I exit was
• 41:55
  around $400 million valuation. This one we want to get above,
• 41:59
  you know, we think do we have the capacity to get it to be a
• 42:01
  billion plus youth media company.
• 42:04
  Not that that matters that much, but that's how big this market,
• 42:08
  this stuff is staggeringly big. This this audience to this
• 42:12
  community. Well, and it's super cool to the
• 42:16
  way you, the way you talk about it too.
• 42:19
  You're still clearly like you're, you're envisioning.
• 42:23
  And it's just like inspiring to me as somebody who, you know,
• 42:26
  started a podcast and my goal was to get to 100 episodes.
• 42:29
  And I'm like, you got a set and I'm it, it's just reminding me
• 42:33
  you have to have your vision. And, and like when I was in
• 42:35
  episode 1, I was like 100. How many get to 100?
• 42:37
  And then like you just get there, right?
• 42:40
  Like you get there step by step and, and things happen along the
• 42:43
  way. But I I love that it seems like
• 42:46
  your your sense for adventure. It's definitely.
• 42:50
  Not for for better or worse. I mean, I'm always you're.
• 42:54
  Like tired You're tired I. Will take a lot of risks, you
• 42:57
  know, a lot of things I'm not good at.
• 43:00
  One thing I am kind of good at is like I see things that that
• 43:04
  are happening in culture that I'm like, it's obviously this is
• 43:06
  what's happening and no one sees it.
• 43:08
  And then by the time like we did, we, we were the, we had a
• 43:12
  marketplace in 2006 where we're selling like what, you know, we
• 43:15
  created a cargo to 3035 million bucks.
• 43:18
  Like that was new. No one had done that.
• 43:20
  It was just something that happened actually, because we
• 43:22
  had all these small brands who wanted to sell on our site.
• 43:23
  We couldn't carry their inventory.
• 43:25
  So we just made this thing, right?
• 43:26
  I mean, there's eBay, but there, that was always before that
• 43:29
  marketplace. We had all been auctions.
• 43:31
  We had, we were the first ecommerce site.
• 43:33
  As far as I know, I haven't heard anyone dispute this that
• 43:36
  had a YouTube channel Like we, we were, we had videos on
• 43:39
  YouTube that was doing like 50,000 views that were doing
• 43:42
  when there was like 10 million people on the whole platform,
• 43:45
  right? And we were just a little early
• 43:47
  and and karma kind of when it gotten us in trouble in the, you
• 43:51
  know, in the end. And we didn't we weren't able to
• 43:53
  see it fully through. But I mean, the the channel, all
• 43:56
  the contents still up. It's good content.
• 43:57
  And some of them had millions of views on the, on the stuff.
• 44:00
  This Karma loop TV, we were doing live streaming in 2010
• 44:04
  where there was no live streaming platform.
• 44:06
  We, we did a deal with a company called live stream.
• 44:08
  That's how early it was. Did CNN and Fox News and all
• 44:12
  their live stream. We just put the, the streaming
• 44:14
  thing on our website, which was one of the most visited
• 44:16
  websites. So we got a lot of views on it.
• 44:18
  So like, you know, to me that it's so obvious that this demo
• 44:24
  that's consuming content in a different way that there's so
• 44:27
  much value here. But I've had such a hard time.
• 44:30
  You know, I've convinced enough people invest in us to get us
• 44:33
  here. But you know, so many people
• 44:35
  just don't see it and it's, and they're starting to now.
• 44:38
  But it was amazing to me how how little interest we had from so
• 44:43
  many investors in the earlier days, which is the guy that this
• 44:47
  isn't gonna work or they thought were E sports or whatever.
• 44:51
  And to me, it's like, you know, there's a famous Schopenhauer
• 44:55
  quote. I got it from my dad.
• 44:57
  It's something like it, you know, first, first they laughed,
• 44:59
  then they got angry and then they and then they all said it
• 45:03
  was self-evident that it would be a success or something like
• 45:05
  that. Right, right.
• 45:06
  So what happened with us is when we refer and it really is truly
• 45:10
  how it happened, is that people like, wait, they're going to
• 45:12
  watch people game. They're going to like this is
• 45:14
  stupid or E sports doesn't work. You know, they kind of laughed
• 45:17
  at it, right? And then as we turn against some
• 45:19
  traction, I tell people, people would be like investors who are
• 45:22
  adults would be like, wait, you're telling me that kids are
• 45:24
  going to watch other kids game for five hours?
• 45:27
  That's fucking ridiculous. You know, whether they one, they
• 45:33
  would say they don't believe it or two, they'd say, well,
• 45:36
  that's, that's stupid, That's not going to last or whatever,
• 45:39
  you know, so, you know, I definitely experienced that sort
• 45:43
  of thing. Now we're starting to get to the
• 45:44
  point where people are like, holy shit, this is a huge, huge
• 45:48
  thing, right? And you guys are way on the way
• 45:49
  on the forefront of it. But you know, I think that goes
• 45:52
  back to what you were saying with your podcast.
• 45:54
  Like you got to just do your thing and you got to do.
• 45:57
  And it's like it's about putting small points on the board over
• 46:00
  and over again, right? And you know, you have to just
• 46:04
  not give up. And it's like, you know, what is
• 46:06
  it was like Lao SU or someone like a journey of 1000 miles
• 46:11
  begins with one step, right? It's so true.
• 46:13
  You just got to put 1 foot in front of the other.
• 46:15
  And but like, you know, the entrepreneurs that I respect,
• 46:20
  the number one quality, the number one thing that will make
• 46:23
  you successful in entrepreneurship or in
• 46:26
  entertainment is not giving up and continuing to put out
• 46:30
  products. Because it's not about who's the
• 46:33
  smartest or has the best idea. It's really about who can take
• 46:35
  the most pain and who can have the most belief in their vision
• 46:39
  and get excited to keep doing stuff over and over again when
• 46:42
  they're getting slapped in the face of the door shut and, you
• 46:45
  know, you feel completely like there's no way this thing's to
• 46:48
  work. You know, you're just, you're
• 46:50
  just, you're lonely and you're like, what am I doing?
• 46:53
  This is a disaster. And then you see, but I see it
• 46:56
  as, you know, you have to kind of gut check.
• 46:58
  I would do that all the time. Like, am I irrationally thinking
• 47:01
  this is going to be successful and I should probably start to,
• 47:04
  or do the do the data points that I understand ultimately, do
• 47:09
  I really believe it was it's the right, right thing?
• 47:13
  And you know, I and I do so we'll see if I'm right.
• 47:16
  But I, I think it's the same thing with you.
• 47:18
  If you feel like there's so many people starting podcasts, but
• 47:21
  there's so many people, there were so many people starting
• 47:24
  needy companies. So it's it's really about the
• 47:27
  details of whether you have what it takes to to deliver something
• 47:30
  of value and do do it with conviction that you're going to
• 47:35
  that no matter what you're going to make it work.
• 47:37
  Yeah, no, I, I love that. And I'll keep that in mind too,
• 47:41
  because like, it's a, I'm in it for the long game and I'm
• 47:46
  definitely changing in the process, you know, and it
• 47:48
  definitely makes you figure out who you are, you know, and then
• 47:53
  hearing I've talked to probably this will be episode 88.
• 47:57
  And about sixty of those have been interviews, 20 are just me
• 48:01
  kind of like, you know, popping off on all kinds of things.
• 48:04
  But the people who are succeeding, they're not
• 48:10
  stopping. Like that's like you said,
• 48:11
  they're just, they're in motion, right?
• 48:13
  And then when they need help, I think it's important to call out
• 48:16
  like when you need help, you ask for help, like, hey, I'm
• 48:18
  freaking out, man. Or like I'm spiraling, or I need
• 48:21
  to go to a meeting, or I need to take a walk, right?
• 48:24
  Yeah. I mean, I think that that's the
• 48:26
  other thing when you talk about authenticity or whatever, like
• 48:30
  people don't want to invest in entrepreneurs who think they're
• 48:33
  doing everything right. It's totally fine to be like,
• 48:36
  look, I got a good idea, but I'm fucking everything up.
• 48:38
  I got to figure out how to get and I need to get, I still
• 48:40
  believe this is the right way to do it, but I got to figure out
• 48:42
  how to get get there. You know, this is the right
• 48:45
  thing ultimately, but I'm doing it wrong.
• 48:46
  Help me. And like, you know, people
• 48:49
  respect that your staff loves it when you're, you know, and I
• 48:52
  don't do it as a gimmick, but like there's sometimes like
• 48:54
  guys, I totally fucked up. You guys were right, like this
• 48:57
  wasn't the right approach or whatever.
• 48:59
  And I think, I think I just want to do the work.
• 49:02
  Like I just want to get stuff done.
• 49:04
  And I, I don't want to, I don't care about like posturing or
• 49:07
  being the smartest guy in the room or any of that stuff
• 49:09
  because ultimately, like, that's a lot of work.
• 49:12
  That's not part of your mission, right?
• 49:15
  You got to do a lot of stuff to keep up appearances.
• 49:18
  And you know, and ultimately you, you also make mistakes
• 49:21
  because you're trying to pretend like you know what you're
• 49:23
  talking about and then you really don't and something goes
• 49:26
  wrong. People can tell they're like,
• 49:29
  you know, they, they know when you're being authentic, right?
• 49:31
  Yeah. And I'll oftentimes they'll, you
• 49:32
  know, I'm, I'm not good with like different jargon and stuff
• 49:37
  like that. And, you know, I'll be in an
• 49:39
  industry for, you know, I've been in media or fashion for a
• 49:41
  long time. And some will say something
• 49:43
  that's like obvious jargon and I won't remember what it is, like
• 49:46
  the DT 212 on the exit. And I'll be like, what does that
• 49:50
  mean? And they'll be like, direct to
• 49:51
  consumer. I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah.
• 49:53
  Does that like, why not just ask?
• 49:55
  Yeah, I don't. Care.
• 49:56
  Like I know I should know that, but I don't.
• 49:59
  And you know my my track record speaks for itself, so I don't
• 50:02
  have any problem looking dumb sometimes.
• 50:05
  Yeah, let's, that's another good reminder.
• 50:09
  Yeah, to just just ask the question, Right.
• 50:12
  Well, I know we're coming up to almost the top of the hour here.
• 50:15
  And I know, I know you are a busy guy, and I first just want
• 50:19
  to thank you. I know you've got a lot going on
• 50:22
  and I appreciate you stopping by this podcast.
• 50:25
  And I'm going to put a link to all of your awesome ventures, to
• 50:29
  all of your companies, everything that you got going on
• 50:32
  down in the show notes. Greg Selko, is there anything
• 50:35
  else you want to leave us with in the spirit of anyone out
• 50:39
  there who's going through a diversity and might might need a
• 50:42
  a little pep talk? Yeah.
• 50:44
  So I mean, I'll start with just saying all my socials are are my
• 50:47
  last name at Selco, that's TikTok, you know, and all of our
• 50:51
  brand socials are ex at ex SCT at exit.
• 50:54
  So in terms of folks going through stuff, I mean, look,
• 50:56
  we're all going through. So I'm going through stuff right
• 50:58
  now. I mean, generally like the, the
• 51:01
  foundation's good right now. I don't have a lot of like
• 51:03
  major, but you know, the, the business is doing incredibly
• 51:06
  well. But when you do really, really
• 51:07
  well, there's a lot of challenges too.
• 51:09
  And I'm still raising money and I'm still dealing with I can't
• 51:11
  pay everything the time I want and I'm trying to keep people
• 51:14
  happy. And you know, so you, you, no
• 51:17
  matter how successful you are, you still a lot of these
• 51:20
  problems don't go away. So if you think they're going to
• 51:22
  go away, I got another, I got, I got news for you.
• 51:25
  It's not going to be the case, but I think, you know, folks
• 51:28
  that are struggling and I, you know, I like to think that I'm,
• 51:32
  I'm helpful to folks, you know, when I can be and, and I care
• 51:36
  about helping other people. I think, you know, I would say,
• 51:41
  you know, think about what's really important in life.
• 51:43
  Think about how far you've come, right?
• 51:46
  So the most likely, you know, you may be trying to do
• 51:49
  something, but then if you look deeper, you can see patterns and
• 51:53
  things where, OK, this stuff starting to happen.
• 51:54
  You don't necessarily always see, you know, some of the some
• 51:59
  of the data points are lagging indicators, like more obvious
• 52:02
  ones. And there's little ones in there
• 52:04
  saying, hey, well, yeah, I'm not making any money now.
• 52:06
  I'm not doing this. But you know, I'm sending a lot
• 52:08
  of fans are. I'm getting a lot of, I'm
• 52:10
  reading these emails where people really love what I'm
• 52:12
  doing. You know, there's got to be more
• 52:13
  of those people out there. So you got to, you got to look
• 52:15
  at, you know, without deluding yourself, look at the stuff that
• 52:19
  they're, they're that's positive and try to build on that.
• 52:22
  And I think, you know, nothing wrong with taking a step back
• 52:26
  and asking people for help. Everyone's lonely, everyone's
• 52:29
  anxious, everyone's. And that's beyond just
• 52:33
  entrepreneurship. You know, I think it's tough
• 52:36
  nowadays because you see this completely false world through,
• 52:41
  you know, images that are not even real and completely not
• 52:44
  even real anymore. And so we don't really know
• 52:46
  what's true all the time and we don't.
• 52:48
  But I can assure you that, you know, if you look at a lot of
• 52:51
  these folks that look amazing on Instagram, they're not happy.
• 52:54
  I know some of them and I know a lot.
• 52:55
  I've met, I've met a lot of folks that are very famous
• 52:58
  celebrities that are not happy. And I've met some that are.
• 53:00
  And I've met some people that aren't aren't, you know, I've
• 53:03
  met a lot of people that are perfectly happy.
• 53:06
  You know, you know, just that they've been sober and been able
• 53:09
  to work in a volunteer job for five years.
• 53:11
  So it really has to do. It's really all in you.
• 53:14
  It's just you decide whether you're successful, you decide
• 53:17
  whether you're happy. You know, obviously there's
• 53:19
  chemical issues and stuff and make it hard, but you've got to,
• 53:22
  you've got to, it's everything takes a little bit of work.
• 53:24
  But I would say if you've got to, if you're struggling with,
• 53:27
  you know, drugs or alcohol, it just gets worse.
• 53:30
  So go, try to go and get help if you can.
• 53:32
  It's hard to get yourself to admit that you have an issue,
• 53:34
  but I can tell you is for me, it was the, the, the single
• 53:39
  greatest thing I've ever done or and everything, everything else
• 53:42
  is possible because I because I decided to address that and
• 53:45
  because other people wanted me to address that.
• 53:47
  I'm not going to say I just did it on my own.
• 53:48
  There were other. People.
• 53:50
  This has got to stop. But you know, I, I definitely
• 53:53
  think that it's important just to keep going, be positive, find
• 53:58
  those positive things in what you're doing and talk to other
• 54:01
  people because you'll realize that you're not the only one
• 54:03
  going through it. Fantastic.
• 54:06
  It's a really, really awesome thing to leave us with and Greg,
• 54:10
  thank you again. If you ever find yourself nearby
• 54:12
  the Bay Area, let me know. If I'm If I visit Boston, I'd
• 54:15
  love to to get a couple if. You visit Boston, hit me up,
• 54:18
  we'll grab coffee. I'm in the Bay or something, I
• 54:21
  don't know, next. And I'll be there, right?
• 54:23
  I'm there sometimes. Yeah, cool.
• 54:26
  Well, I really thank you for stopping by and again, wish you
• 54:30
  all the best of luck and and I'm excited for this one to go live
• 54:33
  in a few weeks here. Awesome.
• 54:35
  Thanks for your time.