Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Daughter Pushes for Murder Charges Against Dad After Mom of 8 Drowns in Bathtub

Transcript

Daughter Pushes for Murder Charges Against Dad After Mom of 8 Drowns in Bathtub · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a beauty queen,
0:15
Speaker 1: a straight A student when she was in school, the
0:18
Speaker 1: mother of eight four bio four adopted end up dead
0:25
Speaker 1: and the bathtub of her own home. Crime Stories with
0:36
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I'm talking about a beautiful mother. Michelle McNeill. Listen.
0:46
Speaker 1: Michelle Summers was a fresh faced beauty queen from California,
0:50
Speaker 1: a sometime model with a string of suitors, but it
0:53
Speaker 1: was a handsome, aspiring doctor named Martin McNeill who made
0:57
Speaker 1: her fall hard and fast. They elope when Michelle was
1:00
Speaker 1: twenty one, and soon afterward you started a family. Michelle
1:03
Speaker 1: Marie Summers grew up in southern California and graduated in
1:07
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. She was royalty, being chosen as homecoming queen.
1:12
Speaker 1: That same year. She met Martin McNeill, who had ambitions,
1:15
Speaker 1: eventually becoming a lawyer and then a doctor. But after
1:18
Speaker 1: twenty nine years of marriage, it all came to an end.
1:21
Speaker 1: One night in two thousand and seven. You're hearing our
1:24
Speaker 1: friends at ABC giving a recap about who is Michelle
1:30
Speaker 1: Summers McNeil. But there's so much more to her than
1:35
Speaker 1: what you just heard, And I think her starring role
1:38
Speaker 1: was being a mother again. This is crime Stories. Thank
1:42
Speaker 1: you for being with us. Let me introduce you an
1:44
Speaker 1: all star panel to make sense of it all. First
1:46
Speaker 1: of all, Dale Carson are now to attorney, joining us
1:49
Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville. Former FBI agent, former author of Arrest
1:54
Speaker 1: Proof Yourself. You can find him Adel Carson Law dot com.
1:57
Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry Sorts and Joy joining us. Forensic psychologists specializing
2:03
Speaker 1: in crimes just like this at Panthermitigation dot com. She's
2:06
Speaker 1: the author of Criminal Behavior. Doctor Michelle Duprie, longtime colleague,
2:12
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists, former medical examiner, author off she literally wrote
2:17
Speaker 1: the book Homicide Investigation Field Guy. She's at d Michelle
2:22
Speaker 1: Duprie MD dot com. Justin Boardman joining us. Former special
2:27
Speaker 1: Victims Unit detective, author of I Was Wrong. You can
2:33
Speaker 1: find him at justin Boardman dot com. But first I'm
2:36
Speaker 1: going to go to Connor Richards, reporter joining us out
2:39
Speaker 1: of Utah. You can find him at Connor Richards Media
2:43
Speaker 1: dot Worldpress dot com. Connor, thanks so much for being
2:46
Speaker 1: with us. You know, somehow and all of this discussion
2:51
Speaker 1: of her murder, we forget who is Michelle Summers McNeil.
2:59
Speaker 1: Not only she beautiful on the outside, just as I said,
3:03
Speaker 1: a beauty queen. She was Miss Concord. She was a
3:06
Speaker 1: homecoming queen, but she was loved. Everybody loved her. You know,
3:11
Speaker 1: homecoming queen is based on popularity. Who likes you. She
3:15
Speaker 1: was loved by everyone, and she gave all that love
3:18
Speaker 1: back to four bio children and then taking in four
3:23
Speaker 1: other children, even from other countries that didn't have homes. Yeah,
3:27
Speaker 1: she was a multi winning beauty beauty paget contestant, and
3:33
Speaker 1: she had a lot of skills as well. She grew
3:35
Speaker 1: up playing the violin, she was active in theater, and
3:37
Speaker 1: also she was a cheerleader. So she really had a
3:40
Speaker 1: lot going for her. And then when you hear her
3:42
Speaker 1: children talk about her, that's when you really get a
3:44
Speaker 1: sense for the type of woman she was. After all
3:48
Speaker 1: this happened, her children described her as being loving and
3:51
Speaker 1: forgiving and gave them a really excellent life. And so
3:55
Speaker 1: really by hearing her children talk about them, you get
3:57
Speaker 1: a sense of who she was. But certainly a talented
4:00
Speaker 1: person with a lot of love to give to the world.
4:03
Speaker 1: As she meets her or soon to be husband, Martin McNeill,
4:06
Speaker 1: a doctor and a lawyer. Of course, she helps him
4:10
Speaker 1: get through graduate school. But they meet at a church function.
4:14
Speaker 1: They're both with the Church of Latter day Saints, the Mormons.
4:19
Speaker 1: They meeted a church function and very quickly, Elope, how
4:24
Speaker 1: does it all end like this? Take a listen to
4:28
Speaker 1: a nine one one call from husband Martin McNeill. We
4:32
Speaker 1: have medical okay, okay, I can't understand you content a
4:59
Speaker 1: little man? Okay? What is your wife is unconscious? You're
5:03
Speaker 1: uncount the world? Okay, you get her out of the water,
5:10
Speaker 1: the world she under the water here, I'm okay, she
5:18
Speaker 1: breathing at all? Okay, there's the ferment because they take
5:22
Speaker 1: They're on their way. Okay, may have what Okay, you're
5:29
Speaker 1: hearing just part of that nine o one call. Uh
5:32
Speaker 1: you heard the first call, but now listen to this.
5:36
Speaker 1: There's more. I would don't care. I'll be there's a
5:44
Speaker 1: nine one one. Can I help you? They're on their way?
5:49
Speaker 1: Is your wife breathing? In progress? You're doing? How old
5:59
Speaker 1: is your wife? What kind what a faceless? Yes? Okay?
6:10
Speaker 1: Do you know how to do CPR? Employer Okay. In
6:16
Speaker 1: the rush of CPR, finding his wife in the bathtub,
6:20
Speaker 1: apparently drowned, he hangs up on two nine one one
6:25
Speaker 1: calls straight out to renown criminal defense attorney Deal Carson
6:28
Speaker 1: joining us out of Jacksonville, del I love playing a
6:32
Speaker 1: nine one one call at the beginning of a trial
6:35
Speaker 1: as soon at the beginning as I can. You know,
6:37
Speaker 1: you got to get it an evidence. It's got to
6:38
Speaker 1: be authenticated, so you have to go through a couple
6:41
Speaker 1: of evidentiary hoops. If you're a veteran trial lawyer, you
6:44
Speaker 1: don't even have to look him up in the code.
6:46
Speaker 1: You know what you got to do to get that
6:47
Speaker 1: nine one one call in. Do you feel the same way,
6:51
Speaker 1: and why do you like a nine one one call? Well,
6:54
Speaker 1: it shows what's going on at the scene at the moment,
6:58
Speaker 1: So it's it's elemental to understanding what went on at
7:02
Speaker 1: the scene at the time that the person was discovered.
7:06
Speaker 1: I mean, because we hear something very critical. She just
7:10
Speaker 1: had surgery and she's in a bathtub. I mean, maybe
7:14
Speaker 1: it's just me, but doctor Michelle Dupree not only a
7:16
Speaker 1: forensic pathologist. That means you're a medical doctor. I thought
7:20
Speaker 1: when you had surgery, you're not supposed to submerge yourself
7:23
Speaker 1: in water for a period of time. That's true, ancy,
7:26
Speaker 1: But if this was only on her face, then she
7:28
Speaker 1: would be able to take a bath. So, okay, she
7:30
Speaker 1: just had surgery. It was plastic surgery, cosmetic surgery. So
7:34
Speaker 1: she didn't have anything like a tummy tuck or liepa
7:37
Speaker 1: or anything like that. It was all on her face.
7:40
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. I think it
7:41
Speaker 1: was only on Connor Richards. What kind of cosmetic surgery
7:45
Speaker 1: did she have? Yeah, this was a faceless surgery at
7:47
Speaker 1: the recommendation of her husband. Oh well, wait, doctor Sherry Schwartz,
7:53
Speaker 1: it would be a cold day in h double L.
7:56
Speaker 1: I believe that my husband David would come in and and
7:58
Speaker 1: tell me I needed plastic surgery. Even if I do,
8:01
Speaker 1: I mean to tell your why you need plastic surgery?
8:05
Speaker 1: No that I mean, of course, it's insulting. And she
8:08
Speaker 1: didn't want to She was afraid to have the surgery,
8:11
Speaker 1: and he persuaded her. But the word I choose to
8:16
Speaker 1: use as more manipulated. You know, I was thinking about
8:20
Speaker 1: her getting talked into plastic surgery. You know, Dot, you
8:24
Speaker 1: do pretty plastic surgery. It's not to be entered into lightly.
8:29
Speaker 1: Joan Rivers, believe it or not. I know, we're unlikely friends,
8:34
Speaker 1: but she and I were friends. How did that happen? Oh?
8:37
Speaker 1: I was at a hit one time, talking about illegal
8:40
Speaker 1: matter and it was in the same building as Joan
8:42
Speaker 1: Rivers offices, and she happened to walk by, and of
8:46
Speaker 1: course I was too star strict to say anything, but
8:48
Speaker 1: she said, hey, Nancy Grace, and we started talking. We
8:51
Speaker 1: became very unlikely friends and mostly talked about raising children. Okay,
8:57
Speaker 1: And she went in for a very airy, minor procedure
9:02
Speaker 1: on her nose or her I don't know what she died.
9:07
Speaker 1: So you kind of think long and hard about plastic surgery,
9:12
Speaker 1: doctor Dubris, exactly, Nancy. Any type of surgery, it carries
9:16
Speaker 1: risk with it, and it can be risk from the
9:18
Speaker 1: surgery itself, or risk from the anesthesia, or risk after
9:21
Speaker 1: the surgery is over. So Justin Boardman from our Special
9:25
Speaker 1: Victim's Unit, Detective Justin, I understand she didn't want I mean,
9:29
Speaker 1: have you seen pictures of her before surgery. She's gorgeous.
9:32
Speaker 1: I understand she didn't want the surgery because she's worried
9:37
Speaker 1: about her blood pressure. She didn't want that plastic surgery. Yeah,
9:40
Speaker 1: she's a very stunning woman. Yeah, I mean her feeling
9:44
Speaker 1: about her husband and his desire for her to look
9:47
Speaker 1: even younger than she already looked played into her decision
9:51
Speaker 1: for that plastic surgery. So it's not a good thing
9:54
Speaker 1: to be submerged in water in a bathtub after surgery,
9:58
Speaker 1: when you're still on pain meds. What was going on
10:01
Speaker 1: in that dynamic? Take a listen to our friend Elizabeth
10:05
Speaker 1: Vargas at Nightline. My father turned fifty. He started acting
10:08
Speaker 1: very strangely. He became just very obsessed with losing weight
10:12
Speaker 1: in his appearance. How did your mom react? She was suspicious.
10:16
Speaker 1: Michelle became very suspicious and confided in her daughter Alexis
10:21
Speaker 1: that she thought that her husband was having an affair.
10:24
Speaker 1: Michelle confronted Martin McNeil with allegations of an affair, and,
10:30
Speaker 1: ever the manipulator, he turned the tables on her. Martin
10:34
Speaker 1: McNeil convinced her she needed a full on face lift.
10:39
Speaker 1: She was afraid that she was losing her husband. Martin
10:43
Speaker 1: had found a plastic surgeon and came in with a
10:45
Speaker 1: list of things that he wanted Michelle to have. Michelle
10:49
Speaker 1: ended up being prescribed percocet laura tab valium ambien. Again.
10:56
Speaker 1: Martin McNeil insisted his wife go home with prescriptions for
11:01
Speaker 1: lots of sedatives and painkillers. The surgeon deferred to Martin
11:06
Speaker 1: McNeill because doctor McNeill planned to take care of his
11:10
Speaker 1: wife personally. What could go wrong? What could go wrong?
11:16
Speaker 1: You're hearing me talking to our friend Elizabeth Vargas. A
11:19
Speaker 1: lot went wrong? Crime stories with Nancy Grace and Martin
11:36
Speaker 1: McNeill came home from work. Wait no, wait, Connor Richards,
11:41
Speaker 1: was he at work or had he dropped the little
11:43
Speaker 1: daughter at one of the daughters at school? Where was
11:46
Speaker 1: he when Michelle got into the tub. He got home
11:49
Speaker 1: with one of the daughters. And at that point he
11:51
Speaker 1: asked his daughter to go check on their mom, and
11:53
Speaker 1: it with the young daughter who had discovered her. Oh,
11:56
Speaker 1: so he's going to pick the daughter up from school.
12:00
Speaker 1: She comes in, she runs in first and finds mommy
12:04
Speaker 1: dead in the bathtub. Take a listen now to our
12:08
Speaker 1: long time friend to colleague, Jane Cassaris, and she said, Alexei,
12:13
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but your dad kept giving me medication.
12:16
Speaker 1: I went to my father and I said, what happened?
12:22
Speaker 1: Obviously mom is over medicated. She said she didn't want
12:25
Speaker 1: my dad to give her any more medication. She wanted
12:28
Speaker 1: me to be in charge. Alexis was always suspicious of
12:31
Speaker 1: Willis and says her father didn't wait long after her
12:34
Speaker 1: mother's funeral to move his lover into their home. My
12:37
Speaker 1: dad called me on the phone and said Alexis had
12:40
Speaker 1: found the perfect nanny. I said, oh, Dad, what's her name?
12:44
Speaker 1: And he started to say he said Jillian. I said, Dad,
12:48
Speaker 1: Gipsy Gillian Willis. I know that woman. I know Mom
12:52
Speaker 1: was worried you were having an affair with her, and
12:54
Speaker 1: you're not to bring her into this home, Okay, So
12:57
Speaker 1: as soon as the wife passes away, he's order got
13:00
Speaker 1: a plan to bring in Gypsy Willis the nanny into
13:05
Speaker 1: the home to Connor Richards joining us out of Utah. Connor,
13:10
Speaker 1: isn't it true that Gypsy Willis, the lover that Michelle
13:14
Speaker 1: was worried about, came to the funeral. Yeah, that is true,
13:19
Speaker 1: and she did so apparently without being invited. And her
13:23
Speaker 1: justification for that, but she said in an interview was
13:26
Speaker 1: that well, nobody there knew who she was, so she
13:28
Speaker 1: thought she could make an appearance. And she says that
13:31
Speaker 1: she did it as a nice gesture because she had
13:33
Speaker 1: felt bad. But of course, you know, showing up to
13:37
Speaker 1: a funeral like that might not look look the best.
13:41
Speaker 1: Isn't that the first time that some of the children
13:43
Speaker 1: had ever met Gypsy willis? Yes, that is I mean,
13:47
Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwartz. I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer.
13:50
Speaker 1: You're the shrink. But to try to introduce a nanny
13:55
Speaker 1: who happens to be your mistress to your children at
13:59
Speaker 1: the mother's funeral, that's all wrong on so many levels.
14:05
Speaker 1: It's incredibly callous nancy. At the very least, it shows
14:10
Speaker 1: an intense lack of empathy for your dead wife. It
14:16
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't scream that you are suffering and grieving, And
14:22
Speaker 1: it shows a lack of empathy for your grieving children
14:25
Speaker 1: who just lost their mother. You know. And in terms
14:28
Speaker 1: of Gypsy, I don't understand the reasoning. Why would you
14:31
Speaker 1: even be a party to that? Why would you show
14:34
Speaker 1: up and participate in their grief? You know? Dale Carson,
14:37
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney. A lot of defense attorneys would argue
14:41
Speaker 1: that behavior such as this does not prove guilt, that
14:47
Speaker 1: a philanderer or a cheater does not a murderer make
14:52
Speaker 1: And I have this to say, it sure doesn't help.
14:56
Speaker 1: It doesn't help. And I like to exam am and
15:00
Speaker 1: behavior at the funeral or the memorial and what could
15:04
Speaker 1: be more callous and bringing in your knee mistress at
15:09
Speaker 1: your wife's funeral. Dell, how are you gonna dress that
15:13
Speaker 1: up at trial? How are you gonna put perfume on
15:17
Speaker 1: that pig? You're gonna try to keep it out as
15:19
Speaker 1: best you can, because it's horrified always coming in. Well,
15:23
Speaker 1: it's coming in, You're right, but a coose that we
15:26
Speaker 1: don't have any control over someone else involved in a relationship.
15:31
Speaker 1: So she's gonna do what she wants to do. It's
15:33
Speaker 1: a free country. Well, you know what, Good luck arguing
15:36
Speaker 1: it's a free country at trial, because no woman on
15:40
Speaker 1: that jury is gonna want to imagine her husband flouting
15:46
Speaker 1: his mistress at her funeral. In Oh, I mean, I
15:51
Speaker 1: can't stress that enough. But this is what we know.
15:55
Speaker 1: Let's get off the funeral and the mistress and who
15:57
Speaker 1: he's having sex with and focus on the cause of death.
16:01
Speaker 1: Take to listen to our friend Marcos Ortiz ABC four.
16:05
Speaker 1: At first, it was ruled accidental. A week earlier, she
16:09
Speaker 1: had cosmetic surgery and Martin McNeill was personally medicating her.
16:13
Speaker 1: At the time, Alexis Summers was a medical student and
16:16
Speaker 1: was already suspicious. My mother began to suspect that my
16:20
Speaker 1: father was having an affair, and she confided in me.
16:25
Speaker 1: It turned out her mother was white. Gypsy Willis was
16:28
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill's mistress. Did the relationship become sexual? One was that?
16:33
Speaker 1: I think that was In January of two thousand and six,
16:36
Speaker 1: Summers set out to prove her father gave their mother
16:38
Speaker 1: the wrong drugs, causing her death. We uncovered who he
16:43
Speaker 1: truly was and he was actually a monster. McNeill introduced
16:47
Speaker 1: Willis as the younger children's nanny and moved in. Unhappy
16:51
Speaker 1: with a police investigation, Rachel McNeill began investigating her father online.
16:56
Speaker 1: Gypsy's roommate who contacted me and said that Gypsy she
17:01
Speaker 1: overheard Gypsy saying that she wanted to cut the break
17:03
Speaker 1: lines from my mother. Willis allegedly wanted Michelle McNeil out
17:07
Speaker 1: of the way. Wait a minute, what am I hearing?
17:10
Speaker 1: Connor Richards, Gypsy Willis the mistress wanted to cut Michelle's
17:14
Speaker 1: break lines. Well, there's also been allegations or talk about
17:18
Speaker 1: her having discussed or stalked Michelle as well, and so yeah,
17:23
Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot going on here, and when
17:26
Speaker 1: you dig deep into it, it really does look like
17:29
Speaker 1: Gypsy had some more involvement there. Can you tell me
17:32
Speaker 1: about her stalking Michelle before Michelle's death, Well, this is
17:35
Speaker 1: something that they looked into and apparently yeah, I don't
17:40
Speaker 1: really have the details on it, but she would stalk Michelle.
17:43
Speaker 1: And as you said, there's also talked about her cutting
17:45
Speaker 1: the break lines, and so there's a lot of things
17:47
Speaker 1: that happened before the death that don't really look good
17:50
Speaker 1: to Gypsy in terms of her involvement. So, Doctor Dupree,
17:54
Speaker 1: let's talk about cod We know that doctor McNeill specifically
18:02
Speaker 1: asked for additional painkillers like oxycodone to be prescribed for
18:08
Speaker 1: his wife, including medications that typically would not have been
18:13
Speaker 1: prescribed following a facelift. We also know that Michelle was
18:20
Speaker 1: getting concerned that Martin McNeill, her husband, was over medicating her.
18:26
Speaker 1: So concerned she put her daughter, Alexis, med student, in
18:33
Speaker 1: charge of her medications. Alexis got her stabilize, she was
18:38
Speaker 1: on the road to recovery. She went back to med
18:41
Speaker 1: school one day later, Michelle is dead. Now what do
18:48
Speaker 1: you think of the initial autopsy that rule this was
18:51
Speaker 1: an accident based on heart problems? Yes, yeah, I find
18:55
Speaker 1: that unusual. Anytime someone is in a bathtub with water,
19:02
Speaker 1: we have to rule out every other cause of death.
19:07
Speaker 1: We should have looked at this a lot, a lot
19:10
Speaker 1: more strongly, looked at all the other evidence. Look at
19:14
Speaker 1: you know, why couldn't she get out of the bathtub,
19:16
Speaker 1: And we would have done a toxicology report, and having
19:18
Speaker 1: done that toxicology, we would see that she was over medicated,
19:22
Speaker 1: and that's why she couldn't get out of the bathtub.
19:24
Speaker 1: Over medicated. In fact, she was so concerned about Martin
19:29
Speaker 1: McNeil's dosage she specifically asked her daughter to take over
19:33
Speaker 1: her meds to Connor Richards, joining us out of Utah
19:37
Speaker 1: at Connor Richard's media dot Worldpress dot com. What about
19:44
Speaker 1: the previous episode where she had been over medicated and
19:49
Speaker 1: managed to live. Yeah, well, so there was a time
19:52
Speaker 1: when she confided in her daughter and told her, well,
19:57
Speaker 1: she had been over She had been over medicated, as
19:59
Speaker 1: you mentioned, and she told her daughter that she wanted
20:03
Speaker 1: her to take the pills out and actually let her
20:06
Speaker 1: feel them. In her hands so she would know what
20:10
Speaker 1: her husband was giving her because she couldn't see because
20:13
Speaker 1: she had an eye patch on her eyes. And so
20:15
Speaker 1: she also told the daughter, Hey, if something ends up
20:17
Speaker 1: happening to me, I want you to make sure that
20:19
Speaker 1: it wasn't your dad. And so this is this is
20:23
Speaker 1: really where the daughter started to become suspicious and worry
20:27
Speaker 1: that there was foul play here. To Justin Bourneman, former
20:29
Speaker 1: Special Victims Unit detective, author of I was Wrong and
20:33
Speaker 1: investigator's battlecry for change within the Special Victim's Unit. Justin
20:38
Speaker 1: how many times have you and I heard that for
20:40
Speaker 1: a homicide victim says in life, if anything happens to me,
20:45
Speaker 1: X did it? And she said that, well, for me,
20:48
Speaker 1: that's happened once. I was at the police department that
20:52
Speaker 1: investigated the Susan Powell case in Utah and she left
20:56
Speaker 1: note in her final drawer at her work. One of
21:01
Speaker 1: the things I also thought was a little weird that
21:03
Speaker 1: maybe the doctor can explain some of this, But if
21:07
Speaker 1: you are found dead over the edge of a bathtub,
21:11
Speaker 1: wouldn't you have some lividity issues from how she was
21:16
Speaker 1: found that may have screened out? This isn't how it happened?
21:19
Speaker 1: What about it? Dodges de Free. Yes, absolutely there should
21:22
Speaker 1: be tusealthigns on the body, perhaps lividity, again depending on
21:27
Speaker 1: the actually when the time of death was. But there
21:29
Speaker 1: should be other tousehouth tigns, perhaps bruises or even pattern
21:32
Speaker 1: injuries from leaning over the bathtub. So what happened. Obviously
21:37
Speaker 1: the correct procedures were not followed at the time. Investigators
21:42
Speaker 1: raced to the scene. Take a listen to our cut
21:45
Speaker 1: thirty one. This is our friend Elizabeth Vargas Nightline at
21:49
Speaker 1: least didn't really conduct much of an investigation at all.
21:53
Speaker 1: They didn't collect any of the evidence, closed the book
21:56
Speaker 1: on this case and ruled it a natural death. Michelle's
21:59
Speaker 1: daughters were absolutely outraged that the police closed the case
22:03
Speaker 1: so quickly on Michelle's death, and Alexis and Rachel and
22:07
Speaker 1: Michelle's sister began their own investigation. And we went to
22:10
Speaker 1: the Pleasant Girl police. We said, you know, we have
22:13
Speaker 1: this new information, we know about a girlfriend now. They
22:17
Speaker 1: took no notes. They acted like we were out of
22:19
Speaker 1: our minds and talking with the investigator there Pleasant Girl,
22:24
Speaker 1: they felt like this was all a natural caused kind
22:27
Speaker 1: of thing. Could they have done more. They could have,
22:29
Speaker 1: but I think the initial response was appropriate. I don't
22:33
Speaker 1: when you have a victim state if anything happens to me,
22:37
Speaker 1: he did it and then she ends up. Dad, No,
22:41
Speaker 1: I don't think appropriate procedures were followed. Time stories with
22:58
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Doctor Michelle Dupree, the medical examiner, was asked
23:05
Speaker 1: to re examine the case. What happened, yes, exactly, and
23:09
Speaker 1: so whenever would re examine a case, we basically start
23:13
Speaker 1: over at the beginning and look at the evidence as
23:16
Speaker 1: we find it. And again, there's no way this could
23:18
Speaker 1: be an accident. Anytime someone is found I'm sorry, not
23:21
Speaker 1: an accident, but there's no way this could be a
23:23
Speaker 1: natural death because she was found in a bathtub. Maybe
23:27
Speaker 1: she had a heart attack, but again, that toxicology report
23:30
Speaker 1: is going to rule out any type of accident. Tell
23:34
Speaker 1: me what was found in the toxicology report, to your understanding,
23:37
Speaker 1: doctor dupre My understanding is again that she was found
23:40
Speaker 1: over medicated. She was found with what we call a polypharmacy,
23:44
Speaker 1: which is a number of medications. Oxycoda uncertainly is one
23:47
Speaker 1: of those that is a narcotic that is tightly controlled.
23:51
Speaker 1: And again, she had way too much in her system
23:53
Speaker 1: of many different medicine. She was not taking the meds
23:56
Speaker 1: herself connor Richards, her husband was given them. Not only
24:01
Speaker 1: that he had actually insisted the operating surgeon add on
24:06
Speaker 1: MADS for her a maths that would not normally have
24:08
Speaker 1: been prescribed. Under these circumstances. She had basically a cocktail
24:15
Speaker 1: of Mad's in her system. And it was only when
24:17
Speaker 1: they were forced to look at toxicology did the medical
24:21
Speaker 1: examiner realize how she was overdosed. Yeah, and this is
24:25
Speaker 1: a really interesting aspect, and you have to wonder why
24:28
Speaker 1: it took so long for them to find this. Something
24:31
Speaker 1: that likely played a large role is just the credibility
24:34
Speaker 1: or influence that Martin might have had, apparently being medically
24:39
Speaker 1: trained himself and also being a governor appointed medical director.
24:43
Speaker 1: There is thought that he influenced the original the original
24:48
Speaker 1: autopsy report, and that that is why it wasn't as
24:52
Speaker 1: in depth as it should have been. You say that
24:54
Speaker 1: he was a government appointed medical worker. As a matter
24:59
Speaker 1: of fact, he had been put in charge of a
25:03
Speaker 1: public facility appointed by the governor, the medical director, but
25:09
Speaker 1: all of course was not as it seems. Take a
25:12
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at ABC cut thirty two. Doug
25:16
Speaker 1: Whitney began investigating everything he did and uncovered a life
25:20
Speaker 1: of lies. When he was in his early twenties, he
25:23
Speaker 1: went to jail for check kiding. He was a convicted felon.
25:26
Speaker 1: He was charged with forgery, fraud. Okay, I haven't take
25:29
Speaker 1: a picture you. We basically found out that our entire
25:33
Speaker 1: lives had been based and surrounded on lies, that everything
25:37
Speaker 1: about our experience with our father was a lie. You've
25:40
Speaker 1: played a part in destroying our whole family, Dad one.
25:54
Speaker 1: Now okay, Hey, there's so many things to look at
26:02
Speaker 1: right there. First of all, claiming he didn't have a mistress.
26:06
Speaker 1: We all know that, Sally, and I'm going to circle
26:08
Speaker 1: back to gypsy Will. It's his own words. But we're
26:12
Speaker 1: also learning he had a long history of crime. Yeah, well,
26:18
Speaker 1: a lot of resemblance here to the movie Catch Me
26:21
Speaker 1: if you can in that. Really, when this got investigated,
26:24
Speaker 1: his whole life got unraveled as a fraud, all the
26:27
Speaker 1: way back to his transcripts for medical school being fraudulent
26:31
Speaker 1: and him having taken somebody else's transcripts and pretended that
26:35
Speaker 1: they were his. And so a lot of this came
26:37
Speaker 1: to light and yeah, this goes way back. So even
26:40
Speaker 1: just a few months after him and Michelle Alope, he
26:42
Speaker 1: was serving a six months jail sentence for federal fraud
26:46
Speaker 1: and forgery for writing fake checks. So really, going all
26:50
Speaker 1: the way back to his early twenties, this man has
26:54
Speaker 1: been perpetuating a lot of fraud. Connor Richard's joining US
26:57
Speaker 1: reporter there in Utah argue that Martin McNeil was neither
27:02
Speaker 1: a doctor nor a lawyer because he faked all of
27:05
Speaker 1: his credentials to get into school. Yeah, that's right, and
27:08
Speaker 1: it would be one would be hard pressed to argue
27:11
Speaker 1: that he's a credible doctor or a lawyer because of
27:14
Speaker 1: this up because as if all unraveled, it became clear
27:17
Speaker 1: that he used falsified transcripts in order to get into
27:21
Speaker 1: medical school, and then later and then later he used
27:25
Speaker 1: the same transcripts or used that same path to take
27:29
Speaker 1: his way into Brigham Young University law school. So by
27:32
Speaker 1: using falsified transcripts to get in there, it really does
27:36
Speaker 1: it really does not look good for him. You know
27:39
Speaker 1: what's interesting, Doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist. I imagine that
27:45
Speaker 1: poor Michelle McNeill's family was thrilled that she was getting
27:51
Speaker 1: a doctor and a lawyer all in one package. Little
27:55
Speaker 1: did they know. How can one person manipulate not just
28:00
Speaker 1: his wife, but his whole family into believing what he
28:03
Speaker 1: wants him to believe. I mean, you just heard him saying,
28:06
Speaker 1: I don't have a mistress, a mistress. I've never had
28:09
Speaker 1: a mistress. I'm the victim here. Well, what we see
28:13
Speaker 1: that's common with individuals like this that perpetrate these kinds
28:17
Speaker 1: of frauds is that they have a lifetime of practice.
28:20
Speaker 1: And if he faked things like credentials to get into
28:24
Speaker 1: programs like to become a lawyer, to become a doctor,
28:28
Speaker 1: then he became very skilled at a very young age. Now,
28:32
Speaker 1: in psychology, we use something called the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual,
28:38
Speaker 1: and so there's a number of criteria for a disorder
28:40
Speaker 1: called antisocial personality disorder. And obviously I don't know what
28:45
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill's psychopathology is, but a lot of what's being
28:50
Speaker 1: described here on your show sounds very consistent with that.
28:53
Speaker 1: They have disregard for right or wrong, persistent lying, deceitfulness,
28:58
Speaker 1: their callous, cynical disrespectful of others, and a keys they
29:02
Speaker 1: used charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain
29:06
Speaker 1: and personal pleasure, you know during her life. Michelle Summers
29:12
Speaker 1: McNeill was on to her husband take a listen to
29:17
Speaker 1: our cut twenty nine ABC. While he was sleeping, I
29:21
Speaker 1: printed out all of his phone records and we found
29:24
Speaker 1: this number that he'd been calling a lot, Gypsy Gillian Willis.
29:30
Speaker 1: Gypsy Gillian Willis was a woman that Martin McNeill had
29:35
Speaker 1: met online. Did you know he was married? I did.
29:38
Speaker 1: My father demanded that we have a funeral within just
29:41
Speaker 1: a couple of days. Among the crowd was Gypsy Gillian Willis.
29:45
Speaker 1: You crashed her funeral. I had felt sorry that I
29:50
Speaker 1: had been involved with Barton inappropriately, and we'd come to
29:54
Speaker 1: find out that my dad had been dating Gypsy for
29:57
Speaker 1: several years before my mom's death. So how are you
29:59
Speaker 1: going to believe the daughters and the mistress or Martin
30:03
Speaker 1: McNeil listened to more from Elizabeth Vargas. Martin had a
30:07
Speaker 1: set plan right away that he was going to hire
30:09
Speaker 1: a nanny. Annie had said, there is going to be
30:13
Speaker 1: an interview for a nanny, and that was the gipsyfsy.
30:16
Speaker 1: Why did you move into the home, Martin told me
30:19
Speaker 1: that he needed help with his younger children. Were you
30:21
Speaker 1: still sleeping with him? I was, so, were you the
30:24
Speaker 1: nanny or were you the girlfriend? I moved into help
30:27
Speaker 1: with the kids when we had opportunity, I still slept
30:32
Speaker 1: with him, So you were both. You want to look
30:35
Speaker 1: at it like that. She walked into the house like
30:38
Speaker 1: she owned the place. And then when I questioned my
30:41
Speaker 1: dad and he said, oh, she's a guest in our home.
30:43
Speaker 1: He wanted to make it known that it was either
30:47
Speaker 1: gipsy or his children, and he chose the nanny. Yeah,
30:50
Speaker 1: and the nanny. But you must have been shocked when
30:53
Speaker 1: three months after she died he proposed marriage to you.
30:57
Speaker 1: I wasn't shocked. It seemed like a natural progression. I
31:00
Speaker 1: believe he loved his wife. He did sincerely mourn Michelle,
31:03
Speaker 1: but she was gone, and I I didn't suspect anything unusual.
31:10
Speaker 1: She was gone because he murdered her. Connor Richards, that's
31:14
Speaker 1: really the tip of the iceber, What can you tell
31:16
Speaker 1: me about claims he molested sexually molested his daughter. So
31:21
Speaker 1: this is a claim that he was later found guilty of,
31:24
Speaker 1: and so it apparently happened just shortly after his wife
31:29
Speaker 1: had died, but his daughter Alexis and you had mentioned.
31:32
Speaker 1: She says that she was sleeping and he came up
31:36
Speaker 1: behind her and he fondled her and then also kissed
31:40
Speaker 1: and licked her hand. And then when she was startled
31:43
Speaker 1: by this, he said, oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I
31:45
Speaker 1: thought she was your mother and so so. Yeah, she
31:49
Speaker 1: reported that to police, but it wasn't until later, until
31:52
Speaker 1: after he was convicted, that he was out. He was
31:56
Speaker 1: also found guilty of that charge as well. I just
31:58
Speaker 1: don't know what to make of this guy. Justin Boardman,
32:03
Speaker 1: former Special Victims Unit. Have you ever seen anything like it?
32:06
Speaker 1: I have, And it's kind of a common way that
32:11
Speaker 1: perpetrators will get to a victim is certainly in the
32:15
Speaker 1: middle of the night and claimed that they were sleepwalking
32:18
Speaker 1: or having some sort of sleep issue to go about
32:23
Speaker 1: and climb into bed with somebody and start fondling them.
32:27
Speaker 1: It happens, sadly a lot. Take a listen to our
32:30
Speaker 1: cut twenty one. This is a DETROI. We jury having
32:35
Speaker 1: reviewed the evidence that test in the case, finding defendant
32:39
Speaker 1: as to chunt one murder guilty. The shrieks of joy
32:44
Speaker 1: came the instant the guilty verdict was read Martin McNeill's
32:48
Speaker 1: daughter's sobbing, while their father remained expressionless. Afterwards, family members
32:53
Speaker 1: spoke about their years long crusade to prove Martin McNeil
32:57
Speaker 1: killed his wife. They're just so happy. You can't heard
33:00
Speaker 1: anyone else for six years. We've put everything we have
33:03
Speaker 1: into it, and we can finally take a deep breath
33:05
Speaker 1: and put it behind us. The five man, three woman
33:08
Speaker 1: jury found McNeill guilty of murder and obstruction of justice
33:11
Speaker 1: after eleven hours of deliberation. Jurors sat through thirteen days
33:16
Speaker 1: of testimony for more than five dozen witnesses. During the
33:19
Speaker 1: month long trial, Martin McNeill murdered his wife Michelle. Crime
33:39
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. How to you, Connor Richards? Could
33:44
Speaker 1: you describe the trial? It was so long and arduous.
33:48
Speaker 1: How many witnesses were there. I don't know the exact
33:51
Speaker 1: number of witnesses, Nancy, but you are right, it was
33:54
Speaker 1: a really long and traumatic trial. The McNeill's had a
33:58
Speaker 1: lot of children, and those children were there and they
34:00
Speaker 1: were holding up pictures of their mother, and they were
34:03
Speaker 1: there to get their father convicted. While the trial itself
34:09
Speaker 1: was long, the discussion the deliberation between the jury was
34:13
Speaker 1: actually relatively short, and they came back with that guilty
34:16
Speaker 1: verdict and all the daughters were very happy about that.
34:18
Speaker 1: But even now, many people, including Gypsy Willis, doesn't accept
34:25
Speaker 1: the martyr conviction. Didn't she testify at trial? Connor, Yes,
34:30
Speaker 1: she did. What was the crux of her testimony, Well,
34:34
Speaker 1: she talked a lot about how she really loved she
34:38
Speaker 1: really loved this man, and she believed him to be
34:40
Speaker 1: a good man, and she really testified to his character
34:43
Speaker 1: and said that this was something that she should do.
34:46
Speaker 1: And with all of her actions in terms of moving
34:48
Speaker 1: into the house or showing up to the funeral, she
34:51
Speaker 1: really tried to justify this and make it seem as
34:53
Speaker 1: if there was no ill intent on her part, and
34:55
Speaker 1: she really cared about these children and she was trying
34:58
Speaker 1: to help them out now that their mother was so dell.
35:01
Speaker 1: The defense had to argue something at trial. They only
35:04
Speaker 1: call for witnesses, But what was their argument to the jury. Well,
35:08
Speaker 1: the argument of the jury ultimately had to be that
35:11
Speaker 1: the credibility of the witnesses was improper and that the doctor,
35:15
Speaker 1: who was well known in the area would testify accurately
35:19
Speaker 1: and truthfully. To what really transpired. But the original investigation,
35:25
Speaker 1: the preliminary crime scene investigation, was clearly substandard. The witnesses
35:29
Speaker 1: were not separated, and the investigation didn't look into the
35:35
Speaker 1: position of the body, which had lividity on the back
35:38
Speaker 1: of the legs and on the buttocks, which clearly means
35:41
Speaker 1: that she wasn't leaning over the bathtub when all of
35:44
Speaker 1: this transpired. Now, isn't it true that that is what
35:47
Speaker 1: he Martin McNeill claimed that she was kind of leaning over,
35:51
Speaker 1: maybe washing her hair. That's exactly right. And I've handled
35:54
Speaker 1: these bathtub drownings before and candidly, what probably happened is
36:00
Speaker 1: they positioned her in a way that they thought and
36:03
Speaker 1: I say they because it's not likely he did this
36:06
Speaker 1: by himself. They positioned her in a way that it
36:09
Speaker 1: appeared as though there was water in the tub and
36:11
Speaker 1: her head was submerged in the water. But of course,
36:14
Speaker 1: when the daughter, the child, the little child finds the
36:17
Speaker 1: mother and the neighbor comes in to help lift the
36:20
Speaker 1: mother out of the bathtub, she's supine in the bathtub
36:25
Speaker 1: with her head well above the water. So it was
36:27
Speaker 1: critical for the doctor to say he drained the water
36:31
Speaker 1: out of the tub because there was no water in
36:33
Speaker 1: the tub. Sometimes when the body goes in, it moves
36:37
Speaker 1: the drain cup and the result is the water all
36:41
Speaker 1: drains out. And water is critical in these circumstances to
36:45
Speaker 1: determine the actual manner of death because it's part of
36:48
Speaker 1: the crime scene. Is the water caught, is it cold?
36:51
Speaker 1: Is it filled with blood? All of those things are
36:53
Speaker 1: critical the investigation. But of course the dock drained it all,
36:57
Speaker 1: so all that evidence goes away along with throwing the
37:01
Speaker 1: medications away, so you can't count the number of pills.
37:04
Speaker 1: And finally, the elixir that was used. If you look
37:09
Speaker 1: at the insert packaging on the Lord tab elixer, one
37:13
Speaker 1: of the warnings is it be careful, it can kill you.
37:17
Speaker 1: So it was clever of the doctor to put that
37:20
Speaker 1: in the request for the medications because that way he
37:25
Speaker 1: could claim, hell, man, I don't know, she must have
37:29
Speaker 1: taken some of that, and it clearly is package labeled
37:32
Speaker 1: don't do that or it could kill you. Deil, why
37:35
Speaker 1: are you so convinced that he did not perform CPR
37:39
Speaker 1: on his wife. To perform proper CPR, you got to
37:42
Speaker 1: have the body upon meaning flat face up, and you've
37:46
Speaker 1: got to have some hard surface behind it. If she
37:48
Speaker 1: was in the tub, scrunched in there with her head
37:52
Speaker 1: under the fawcet, how can you perform CPR. The answer
37:56
Speaker 1: is you can't, and certainly any man to get this
38:00
Speaker 1: woman out of the tubs. She wasn't that overweight and
38:04
Speaker 1: you just pulled her by the legs until she's out
38:06
Speaker 1: on the flat service and then perform CPR. But we
38:09
Speaker 1: remember that phone call that came in initially, that phone call,
38:13
Speaker 1: he said, I am instituting CPR, right, Well, how the
38:18
Speaker 1: hell is er did? He's just lying, So you're saying
38:21
Speaker 1: that he's telling nine one one she's in the tub
38:24
Speaker 1: and I'm performing CPR, Brett, which is impossible. Absolutely. That's why,
38:30
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, Nancy, those phone calls to nine one
38:34
Speaker 1: one are so critical. That's why I hung up the
38:37
Speaker 1: phone right after he spoke the words and the you know,
38:41
Speaker 1: the dispatcher tried to keep her him on the phone,
38:45
Speaker 1: but he didn't want to do that. And think about this,
38:47
Speaker 1: if you're performing CPR and your wife you love her,
38:49
Speaker 1: He wanted to survive. Are you going to answer the
38:52
Speaker 1: phone when nine one one calls back? I don't think so. No,
38:55
Speaker 1: you will not to you. Connor Richards, who is Doug Whity.
39:01
Speaker 1: He's a Utah County He's a Utah County investigator, who's
39:05
Speaker 1: really the one who, at the requests of Martin's daughters,
39:09
Speaker 1: is the one who really looked into this and started
39:11
Speaker 1: digging things out. So he's the one, for example, who
39:14
Speaker 1: found that it was Martin who that Martin had actually
39:17
Speaker 1: falsified his transcripts, and that's what unraveled all these things.
39:20
Speaker 1: The other really interesting thing that he found was that
39:24
Speaker 1: Martin was actually a convicted felon and he had served
39:28
Speaker 1: a jail sentence for forgery when he wrote fraudulent checks
39:31
Speaker 1: when he was in his twenties. And so so this
39:34
Speaker 1: is really where it all began, because then they were
39:36
Speaker 1: able to convict Martin on these charges, and then that
39:40
Speaker 1: was real that really snowballed into investigating the murder and
39:44
Speaker 1: uncovering this. Now it's not understanding that he had multiple
39:49
Speaker 1: convictions that Michelle may not have known about. Were they
39:53
Speaker 1: all stemming from the forged checks? Well, there were a
39:57
Speaker 1: lot of really, there were a lot of things going
40:00
Speaker 1: on here. So in two thousand, Michelle actually reported to
40:05
Speaker 1: police that Martin had threatened to kill her and also
40:08
Speaker 1: himself with a knife after he had gotten caught looking
40:11
Speaker 1: at pornography. Okay, wait a minute, was that if we
40:14
Speaker 1: end that was in two thousand, so that was that
40:17
Speaker 1: was afterwards. But so I guess, sorry, I guess that
40:20
Speaker 1: doesn't really answer your question. But there were more. That's okay,
40:23
Speaker 1: go ahead and tell me about it anyway. Yeah, So
40:25
Speaker 1: that's just one of the example of where just this
40:28
Speaker 1: kind of behavior. One other one is he was also
40:31
Speaker 1: he was also the head of a help of a
40:33
Speaker 1: health center at BYU, and he was asked to resign
40:38
Speaker 1: because of some allegations, including sexual harassment and unprofessional behavior.
40:43
Speaker 1: So as far as other other convictions, he certainly had
40:47
Speaker 1: a history of things being reported to the police or
40:51
Speaker 1: having to step down from positions because of inappropriate behavior
40:54
Speaker 1: or even illegal behavior. So it's a very long history
40:57
Speaker 1: of misbehavior and convictions. I want to circle back to
41:04
Speaker 1: the trial itself. Why do you believe del Carson that
41:10
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill did not testify? Well? Of course, to have
41:14
Speaker 1: him on the stand as a defense attorney would not
41:18
Speaker 1: make any real sense because his personality of being a
41:23
Speaker 1: sociopath would clearly be brought out by the prosecution, and key,
41:28
Speaker 1: as you know, is that if you get somebody angry
41:31
Speaker 1: on the stand, which seems to be very achievable with
41:34
Speaker 1: this particular killer, then of course you win the case
41:39
Speaker 1: because he's going to reflect his total disregard for other
41:43
Speaker 1: people and it would lead to an easy conviction. I
41:46
Speaker 1: always try to talk my clients into not testifying a
41:50
Speaker 1: trial if I believe there's not sufficient evidence to convict
41:54
Speaker 1: on the face of the evidence that's been presented. It
41:57
Speaker 1: does a dupree. How do you believe the daughter Alexis,
42:02
Speaker 1: who had you been to medical school herself figured out
42:06
Speaker 1: the original coroner's report was wrong. Probably Nancy because of
42:11
Speaker 1: what her motherhood says, because of her medical knowledge. We
42:14
Speaker 1: need simply look at the prescription with that that was provided.
42:20
Speaker 1: It's it's gonna cost warning sounds, it's gonna get raise
42:23
Speaker 1: rere slags, I mean oxycodon and some of the other
42:26
Speaker 1: things mixed together. They're narcotics, se sedatives. It's just too much.
42:30
Speaker 1: Nobody in their right mind would do that. You know.
42:32
Speaker 1: The plot really think is when we find out about
42:35
Speaker 1: Martin McNeil's plan to ship one of his adopted daughters
42:40
Speaker 1: back to the Ukraine, so gipsy Willis could assume her
42:44
Speaker 1: identity explain that bizarre facet of this case, Connor Richards. So,
42:50
Speaker 1: Martin and Michelle had adopted a number of children, including
42:53
Speaker 1: multiple daughters from Ukraine. The oldest of them was a
42:57
Speaker 1: girl named Gazelle, and after the death, investigators believe that
43:03
Speaker 1: Martin had the plan to one have a family adopt
43:07
Speaker 1: these other children. But then for Jaizille, he sent her
43:10
Speaker 1: back to Ukraine on a plane and she was supposed
43:13
Speaker 1: to spend there, spend two months there with her biological sister.
43:17
Speaker 1: Well that's that two months stretched into a year, and
43:20
Speaker 1: it became pretty clear that his plan was to leave
43:22
Speaker 1: her there, and there are reports that she was living
43:25
Speaker 1: there in pretty despicable conditions. She was in a single room,
43:29
Speaker 1: sleeping on a bed with four or five other people.
43:33
Speaker 1: She didn't have any sanitary conditions or anything like that. So,
43:37
Speaker 1: really something horrible for this young girl to go through
43:40
Speaker 1: after being adopted by this family. How did the girl,
43:43
Speaker 1: the little girl, end up getting saved. Well, so it
43:46
Speaker 1: was really the family that got involved. So I believe
43:48
Speaker 1: it was Michelle's sister who started investigating, and I believe
43:54
Speaker 1: it was her daughter who went down there and saw
43:55
Speaker 1: these conditions that she was living in, and then it
43:59
Speaker 1: all unveiled that the reason she was being sent away
44:03
Speaker 1: is part of a plot for Gypsy to take on
44:06
Speaker 1: her identity and get a new Social Security number, and
44:09
Speaker 1: so it was when that plot unraveled that things turned
44:12
Speaker 1: around for Jiselle. Why did Gypsy Willis made a new
44:15
Speaker 1: Social Security number? She says that she had a lot
44:18
Speaker 1: of outstanding tax debt and so it looks like it
44:21
Speaker 1: was a plot for her to escape bad credit, and
44:25
Speaker 1: so she would be able to take on this new
44:27
Speaker 1: identity and kind of start a fresh life. She says
44:30
Speaker 1: that she knew it was something that was illegal and
44:32
Speaker 1: potentially not right as well, but she was just going
44:35
Speaker 1: along with Martin and she was in love with him
44:37
Speaker 1: and she trusted his judgment. So that's her side of
44:39
Speaker 1: the story. Dale Carson, isn't it true that there were
44:42
Speaker 1: two incidents where Michelle McNeil was overdosed. That's exactly right.
44:49
Speaker 1: She was overdosed at first, and her daughter recognized this,
44:53
Speaker 1: and then of course, most probably even though the toxicology
44:59
Speaker 1: report reflects that they were subdoses in terms of her
45:03
Speaker 1: potential death from taking on board those barbiturous and opioids.
45:10
Speaker 1: She really was put in a position probably where she
45:18
Speaker 1: was led to the already filled bathtub and simply drowned.
45:24
Speaker 1: And what they failed to calculate was that the body
45:27
Speaker 1: weight over the side of the tub would allow her
45:29
Speaker 1: to slide into the tub and remain face up, which
45:32
Speaker 1: is where she expired based on the lividity that was
45:36
Speaker 1: on the back of her legs and on her buttocks.
45:39
Speaker 1: That's where the blood pulls after the heart stops pumping.
45:44
Speaker 1: So what do you know about the first time the
45:46
Speaker 1: show was overdosed, Well, her daughter discovered it. She went
45:50
Speaker 1: to the room and saw that she was just heavily sedated.
45:53
Speaker 1: This was right after the operations, after the surgery, the
45:57
Speaker 1: face lift, and she was obviously concerned. And that's when
46:01
Speaker 1: the mother said, look, I'm afraid that I'm being overdosed
46:05
Speaker 1: by your father. Let me hold the pills so I
46:08
Speaker 1: can physically feel them so that I know what I'm getting.
46:13
Speaker 1: But of course she didn't recognize that there was an elixir,
46:16
Speaker 1: which is a syrup. This involved in all of this,
46:19
Speaker 1: and you can't feel a syrup, and certainly anything you'd
46:23
Speaker 1: take on board by drinking could contain that, sirup I
46:26
Speaker 1: don't understand that to you, Doctor Deprive. Why are man's
46:30
Speaker 1: given in an elixir? Basically because it's going to help
46:35
Speaker 1: them be absorbed better without causing irritation to either the
46:41
Speaker 1: intestinal or stomach lining. And then for the absorption reason,
46:44
Speaker 1: you may also want to have them be more time release,
46:47
Speaker 1: which an elixer can help do. To you, Connor Richards,
46:50
Speaker 1: why was Michelle's tub her actual bathtub brought into the
46:57
Speaker 1: court ram? So, yeah, prosecutors brought this in as a prop,
47:00
Speaker 1: and there's pictures of it in there, and it's pretty
47:03
Speaker 1: startling to see a big, round, oval bathtub in the
47:05
Speaker 1: middle of the courtroom. But the reason that that was
47:07
Speaker 1: brought in because of what was talked about a little
47:10
Speaker 1: bit earlier, is that the position of how the position
47:14
Speaker 1: that Michelle's body was in when she was found is
47:16
Speaker 1: really something that played a large role, particularly because the
47:21
Speaker 1: way that she was found did not match up with
47:24
Speaker 1: the story that Martin said. He said that he found
47:26
Speaker 1: her when she was hunched over, so he said that
47:28
Speaker 1: he found her hunched over in the bathtub with her
47:30
Speaker 1: head submerged. But there are details that really contradict that,
47:34
Speaker 1: including the account of the daughter who found her, who
47:37
Speaker 1: said that she was lying in the tub, and then
47:40
Speaker 1: there's other things. So he said, it's been mentioned that
47:42
Speaker 1: he said that he tried performing CPR, but then when
47:45
Speaker 1: medics came in, they performed CPR, she regurgitated water. And
47:49
Speaker 1: so the idea is that that's not something that would
47:52
Speaker 1: happen if he had already performed CPR. So the bathtub
47:55
Speaker 1: was brought in as a prop to really just demonstrate,
47:58
Speaker 1: I think, to attack the credibility of Martin and show
48:03
Speaker 1: and just demonstrate how important of her role that aspect
48:06
Speaker 1: of this case played. So do you, doctor Michelle defree
48:12
Speaker 1: the bathtub was significant. It was critical because doctor Martin
48:18
Speaker 1: McNeill claims he comes in and she's hunched over the
48:21
Speaker 1: tub with her head in the water or under the water.
48:24
Speaker 1: The daughter Anna, the little girl who finds mommy, says,
48:28
Speaker 1: mommy's lying in the tub. The liver mortis, which is
48:34
Speaker 1: the settling of the blood in a dead body to
48:37
Speaker 1: the lowest common denominator, reveals something different from her being
48:42
Speaker 1: dead hunched over the side the tub. Explained, yes, sense,
48:46
Speaker 1: you're right that lever mortis is the settling of the
48:48
Speaker 1: blood according to gravity. So the lowest part of the
48:51
Speaker 1: body is going to contain the lever mortis or that
48:54
Speaker 1: purple red discoloration. Again, depending on how long this has
48:58
Speaker 1: gone on, that libra mortis will be fixed or not.
49:02
Speaker 1: And once that person is moved, if the libra mortis
49:05
Speaker 1: is not fixed, in other words, it can change by
49:09
Speaker 1: movement of the body. If it doesn't change, when we
49:13
Speaker 1: know that this person has been deceased for longer then
49:17
Speaker 1: maybe expected, because it is now fixed and will not move.
49:20
Speaker 1: And also doctor Dupree, if he says he finds her
49:24
Speaker 1: hunched over the side of the tub like you hang
49:27
Speaker 1: your head over to wash your heir under the faucet,
49:29
Speaker 1: is the way I imagine it. The blood would not
49:32
Speaker 1: have settled on her back and her rear end and
49:34
Speaker 1: the back of her legs. The blood would be settled
49:38
Speaker 1: at the bottom of her knees from the knee down
49:41
Speaker 1: the calf, because all the blood would go to the
49:44
Speaker 1: lowest common spot. It would not be the way that
49:51
Speaker 1: it was found. The blood would not have settled the
49:53
Speaker 1: way that it was found. That's right, Nancy. We have
49:55
Speaker 1: to look at what the body is telling us and
49:57
Speaker 1: wherever that libra mortis is that is where the lowest
50:01
Speaker 1: spot was. That is how the body was positioned, and
50:04
Speaker 1: we can position that body back to show where that
50:07
Speaker 1: libra mortis is and determined exactly how that was. To
50:10
Speaker 1: Connor Richards, I understand that the libra mortis was along
50:13
Speaker 1: her back and rear in Is that correct? Yes? I
50:15
Speaker 1: believe that is correct, Nancy and Connor. When the EMTs
50:19
Speaker 1: got there, where was she? I believe she was found.
50:25
Speaker 1: I believe they found to and that he was on
50:29
Speaker 1: the floor. I'm sorry, is that you, Dale? Yeah, it
50:32
Speaker 1: is she was on the floor of the bathroom because
50:34
Speaker 1: the neighbor had come over earlier. You're absolutely right. So,
50:38
Speaker 1: Dale Carson, you are the master of courtroom props and
50:43
Speaker 1: demonstrative evidence. Why do you believe they brought the actual
50:46
Speaker 1: bathtub in front of the jury into the courtroom. You know,
50:52
Speaker 1: jurors love the actual props and and oftentimes we take
50:56
Speaker 1: the jury actually to the crown scene that the court
50:59
Speaker 1: will allow, so you want to see, get a feel
51:02
Speaker 1: for what's going on, and candidly, her being found face
51:06
Speaker 1: up in the tub is critical to the lies told.
51:11
Speaker 1: Critical to prove the lies told by Martin the doctor
51:15
Speaker 1: at the time of his initial interview. I mean clearly.
51:19
Speaker 1: And another point is that if you perform active CPR,
51:24
Speaker 1: lividity can't settle because the blood's still moving through the body.
51:29
Speaker 1: So if this guy is really a physician and he's
51:31
Speaker 1: performing CPR and she's only been in the tub for
51:35
Speaker 1: a brief period of time, you shouldn't see any lividity
51:38
Speaker 1: at all, at least initially, do you agree, Dot d Prey, Well,
51:42
Speaker 1: not necessarily, because lividity can actually actually begin when people
51:48
Speaker 1: are still alive. But in a coma it doesn't happen often,
51:52
Speaker 1: but it does happen. And so well, do you think
51:54
Speaker 1: that happened here because I don't. No, I don't. But again,
51:58
Speaker 1: lividity is going to to settle and it's going to
52:02
Speaker 1: become fixed after hours hours, So we're talking. We don't
52:06
Speaker 1: know how long supposedly she was in the tub, but
52:09
Speaker 1: does that make sense? What did it have time to settle?
52:15
Speaker 1: You would have been in the tub from nine thirty
52:18
Speaker 1: to eleven thirty, so that's whatever number of hours it is.
52:22
Speaker 1: Is that sufficient time for livitity? Just said I think no,
52:26
Speaker 1: it isn't. No no livity, No livity wants set in
52:30
Speaker 1: two hours. Connor Richards was she dead on the scene
52:35
Speaker 1: when EMTs got there. Yes, that is my understanding. Then
52:38
Speaker 1: how has it done to dupri that she coughed at water? Well?
52:41
Speaker 1: That was that was really not because she was alive.
52:43
Speaker 1: That's simply because of the pressure um when she was
52:48
Speaker 1: taken out and CPRY was started, um more started to
52:52
Speaker 1: be performed. That's just pressure out of the lungs. Another
52:55
Speaker 1: point here is if CPR has done correctly, oftentimes there
52:59
Speaker 1: is bluez and there is also broken ribs associated with that,
53:03
Speaker 1: and as a physician you would know that, and that's
53:05
Speaker 1: very common, and I don't know that there was any
53:07
Speaker 1: sounds of that at all. You know, I'm curious to
53:09
Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist in the end, after he's
53:13
Speaker 1: conviited doctor Martin McNeil, if I should call him that
53:17
Speaker 1: actually commit suicide behind bars? Why do you think he
53:20
Speaker 1: did it? That is a real head scratcher, because people
53:24
Speaker 1: who have you know, these exhibit the kind of behavior
53:28
Speaker 1: that he does. The you know, the charm, the manipulation.
53:31
Speaker 1: They really like themselves and don't generally commit suicide, but
53:36
Speaker 1: occasionally someone that might be hind narcissism psychopathy will if
53:41
Speaker 1: they see no other way out. So if I don't
53:45
Speaker 1: know how, you know he was in terms of appeals
53:48
Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. If he had come
53:50
Speaker 1: to a place where he realized this is it for me.
53:53
Speaker 1: I'm going to be stuck in prison for the rest
53:55
Speaker 1: of my life, then he might be able. He might
53:58
Speaker 1: be able to bring himself to commit suicide, because that
54:01
Speaker 1: would be the final way for him to take control
54:03
Speaker 1: of the situation. Dale Carson, how did he commit suicide ultimately, Well,
54:09
Speaker 1: he'd already tried to do it on one occasion by
54:11
Speaker 1: slitting his wrists, and later he snuck into the prison
54:15
Speaker 1: grounds and had permission to be in the greenhouse, where
54:18
Speaker 1: he took some propane loose from his container and inhaled
54:23
Speaker 1: it to the point that he died. Why did they
54:25
Speaker 1: let him in the greenhouse, Dale, Well, that I can't
54:28
Speaker 1: tell you, but I'm glad they did. And with that note,
54:32
Speaker 1: I'm signing offen Goodbye, frid