Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / JK’s All Blacks Tax Scheme, Springboks Selection Debate & Surprise ABs Bolter!

Transcript

JK’s All Blacks Tax Scheme, Springboks Selection Debate & Surprise ABs Bolter! · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
Right, welcome to rugby rivals. We're all over the world at the moment. We've got John Kerwin's in Italy,
0:05
Victor Matthews in Japan. We're in training camp at Miyazaki in southern Japan.
0:11
You stay in the hotel on the water? Yes, yeah, with a nice golf course.
0:15
There's a good surf spot just out that window there. Does it look like I can surf, John?
0:22
I'll tell you what is looking good today, Victor. Ricardo.
0:26
Yeah, he's finally graced for his look. Look, very good, Ricardo. What's going on?
0:31
Do you want to say that? Yeah, you're dead, mate. That's dead.
0:34
Right, it's just that whatever is at the top of the pile, I just was lucky this week.
0:40
Andrew Trimble is somewhere in Ireland. How are we doing, Lads? Good, right. What time are you there?
0:45
Morning, Andrew. Are you well? Yeah, it's a five o'clock. I've done a five o'clock podcast before,
0:50
fellas. Sorry, it's my mistake. If you work with Eddie, you don't have a lot of
0:57
off-time. I have to take the time that we've got to open. Make sure and say tonight,
1:03
this doesn't work for Trimble and the podcast. He'll respond well. I'm sure he'll
1:10
appreciate where we're coming from. Have you been working for ready for long?
1:13
Is this a new thing or have you had a relationship with him for a while or what?
1:17
I came over a few times when he was at Centauri to come and help and now when he got the Japanese
1:25
job he asked me just to. So last year I ran the lineouts for them. This year they've got a Japanese
1:32
guy and I'm almost more a second voice for Eddie. He likes to bounce things off so just looking at
1:41
everything and giving my opinion. So it's a nice, I have very good relations with Eddie. I really
1:46
enjoy it. So it's good. Does he argue with you? I think we think the same about the game. This
1:54
one or two things that we argue, not argue, but we're strong-walled, but on other things,
2:03
especially in the evenings after a glass of wine or two, just talk about it and the next day you
2:08
see starts introducing it. So first of all I want to ask you about something that happened in
2:19
England, then called flying through the air and landed with the yellow card. Fair or not, Victor?
2:25
You know our feelings about red and yellow cards, I really hate them, but I think in the way they
2:33
interpret the laws these days, I think it was a yellow card. I don't know. I think there was maybe
2:41
a little bit of intent. Oh, it was just really clumsy and you probably get that when a prop runs
2:47
full speed for more than 20 meters. So they struggle to stop. They struggle to think and I think
2:55
you went into the air and that was very clumsy. So unfortunately I think in his last game,
3:01
no one wants to see that. I mean, he was a great player, great for the game as well and the
3:06
prettier that it ended like that. Okay, okay. Yeah, well look for me, I think there's a bigger picture
3:11
here in Victor and I've been chatting about it. So when you think about the last couple of weeks,
3:16
you think about to provide in the Chiefs game, you think about Dan Cole, you think about
3:23
the bulls versus the shark with over down to 13 players. As a game, do we need to re-look at
3:29
intent? You know, when you think about it by the eye one, it was, you know, a tackle that pushed
3:35
them in. You know, it's such a fast-moving game. Now, I think the mitigating factor with Dan
3:42
Cole was like, did he drop his shoulder? If you've done that, that's just stupid. But I still think
3:47
on report is a better thing for us to go to to check things. So for me, what's happening and I
3:57
keep talking about the fan is all of a sudden over three weekends, the fan has spent good money
4:02
to see not 15 versus 15. And you know, and Dan Cole, a great player, you know, great career,
4:12
would you like to see it end like that if that's the end? No, unless you're the player at the other
4:17
end of the prop landing on your face. If there's malice, I think we need to get towards
4:22
is their malice. And if you look at all those red cards, then like Victor said, you know, if Dan
4:29
dropped his shoulder, then that's stupid and you go, you deserve it. If it's clumsy and there's
4:35
no malice, then that's different because when you think about head contact in the other games,
4:41
same scenario was their malice. And so, and he did the moments really hard, guys, like he did
4:48
the moment of your referee and let's not bring the referees into this because not their fault,
4:51
they are doing their job. But a hit of the moment in big games, they are under as much pressure as
4:58
you can. So take a little bit more time, put them on report, let TMO do his job, and then maybe
5:03
re-address it in a few minutes, I don't know. Trimby, did you watch the game? And if you did,
5:07
what did you think of Finn Russell's performance? I only saw a bit to the game. And Finn Russell,
5:13
obviously, like him versus Pollard is your classic two different styles and the clash of those
5:19
two styles and obviously Finn Russell came on top. But the downcalls piece, there's the intent,
5:25
and then there's the clumsiness. And I think it definitely leans more on clumsiness. I'm not sure
5:30
if he intended it, but he's not technical enough to, as you say, Victor, to run 20 meters and then
5:37
get in the air, there should be a legislation for tighthead props, and then there should be something
5:42
else for the other 40 players on the pitch. But there's also the category of not being intentional,
5:51
but not being careful, basically, throwing yourself in there thinking who knows what might happen.
5:56
I'm not taking enough care, and I think he's guilty of that. And then the other one, the argument
6:02
you often hear is, was he in the air early, and then you're protected, but that's not right,
6:07
because if you jump before the boss kicked, what are you jumping at? You were to the boss kick
6:12
then getting the air, and his was just, it just didn't look like he meant to do it, but it looked
6:17
like he didn't care what happened. And if you don't care, then ultimately he deserves what he got.
6:23
Should we be getting rid of, we're doing this for player safety and I'm all for that, but should we
6:27
get rid of players being in the air? Like, why don't we just let the catcher catch the ball,
6:33
give him a few yards, and then he can run at you, it might create a safer situation.
6:40
Like some people might say, oh, that's taking a contest out of the game, but most of the dangerous
6:45
stuff that I see is when a player's feeder off the ground. So why don't we just say no one can
6:51
jump off the ground? You can't jump and try and stop a ball anymore. And if you're catching a high
6:56
ball, the defenders just have to come, stop and let them give them three hours to counter attack.
7:02
Because if we're worried about player safety and it's happening a lot, like some of the
7:06
scary stuff for me is when two players are colliding media trying to catch a high ball.
7:10
No, high ball, the high ball, like that competition in the air is a huge part of the game.
7:16
As a winger, that's one of the most interesting parts of the gets. That's the piece of the
7:20
game that I think they need to protect. And that's the piece they brought in that the escort lines,
7:26
like being more fussy about the escort lines, penalizing, getting in the way, obviously, to allow
7:31
that contest in the air. And for a while, and we just, this is the problem, there's no consistency.
7:36
We go back and forth, we penalize it one week, and then we don't penalize it the next.
7:39
When we penalize it and guys get out of the way and they allow that contest in the air,
7:44
I think that is part of a spectacle that I think we need to protect in the game.
7:47
This is like a winger saying protect this in the same way. In fact, you're probably going to say
7:52
something about the scrum that I don't care about. So I'm with Andrew as well. I think it's a skill
7:59
in the game that you can't take out. I mean, some of the best wingers are so good in the air,
8:03
and I mean, those are probably 80% from your tries, comes off fireballs that you win back,
8:10
because it's broken, play, all of a sudden, there's no defense and then there's space.
8:15
So, y'all for me as well, the other thing is, if guys stay on the ground and they don't get up
8:21
in the air, they're going to get smashed by big hits as well, because that's other thing for
8:25
the wingers to protect themselves, is to go up in the, because in their conquests smash,
8:30
if they just stay on the ground and the guys get in time right, we're going to see a few big hits as well.
8:36
So yeah, I'm with Andrew. I like that they clean up the road to the ball, so it's a fair contest,
8:42
because a lot of the injuries came actually from guys that had to go around guys, all of a sudden
8:47
they go, they slip in. Now that's the open way to the contest, I think it's much safer. So I
8:53
actually like the new rule the way they are playing it at the moment. So that's good. So jump
8:58
things allowed to stay in the game, that's good to hear. Ben's defeating the balls. I mean,
9:05
was anyone expecting it to be that one sided? Well, I said it. I think we said it last week,
9:10
and this is I reckon one of the biggest things that the Lions will have, one of the greatest things
9:17
that islands, I mean, I've seen, I've seen islands shut out the all blacks with absolute discipline
9:23
on their ball retention, absolute accuracy when they're cleaning out the rucks, all sorts of support,
9:30
right? I don't know if they paint by numbers, but when you can't get the ball off them, what happens,
9:35
and I've, like I said, I've seen it happen to the all blacks, and I think it happened to the balls,
9:39
as you start not playing the game that you wanted to play when you get out there, like the physicality
9:47
Victor, with the sharks and the balls versus the physicality of the balls versus the Lions,
9:52
though, was just different because that is the secret of Irish rugby at the moment, just their
9:59
complete ability to take the ball away from him, and it's so frustrating. It was frustrating for
10:07
me as an all black supporter and ex-player standing on the sideline watching, how do we get the ball,
10:11
and you could see the all blacks get frustrated, and I just think that's what happened to the balls,
10:16
Lanes, they're at the best. Yeah, well, I said it a few weeks ago, I'd say that I think Lanes
10:21
still will have a chance against all blacks. I really think they're a fantastic side, and I think
10:28
in the past, with trying, probably putting more of the focus towards the Champions Cup,
10:36
they weren't ready for URC semis and finals, but I think at this stage, they just
10:41
are far the best team in the URC, and there's not really teams that can compete with them,
10:47
and again, I think it was a different Lanes team as well. They played more like final semi-final
10:55
playoff rugby, where they put all the pressure on the balls, they're kicking game with spot-on,
11:00
the accuracy and everything, and we all thought the balls will get the upper hand at scrum times,
11:06
I mean, they got the first two penalties or scrums after the first penalty kicks for the corner,
11:10
line-out drive, try. So, yeah, just the accuracy, and then the second thing is Jock and Nino
11:17
almost rushed the fence. I mean, it looks like the balls had no idea how to play rugby.
11:23
Everything was one runner out, slow ball, they didn't get any momentum. I don't think
11:31
David Kruehl had 13 touch the ball twice in the whole game, so they had a finish just
11:37
smothered the balls and they didn't have any plans. We said at half-time at Super Sport on the weekend
11:42
they haven't thrown a punch, but I think it's because Lanes there was so accurate, Jock,
11:47
like you said, they just don't give you any opportunities because they so accurate at everything.
11:53
And the balls probably don't quite know, this is easy to say in hindsight, but they probably
11:58
don't quite have the game that Northampton brought to Lester in that they haven't the ability or
12:04
enough deception or enough kind of thought around their fees played to outsmart this Lester
12:08
defense. That combined with Lester were on it against Northampton. There were four or five
12:13
times in the game, you would spot someone who wasn't good in his kick chase, wasn't getting
12:18
making good decisions, wasn't getting up on his line speed. Northampton took advantage of that
12:24
they didn't get anywhere near as many opportunities and when they did get the opportunities they
12:29
weren't technical or thoughtful enough around their fees play to take advantage of that, so that
12:33
made them look pedestrian. Lester got on top more and more, although there was and there's
12:38
something about Lester's mindset and it's just a slight vulnerability. In running 50 minutes when
12:43
the ball scored, everybody went, ooh, because we've seen this over the last number of years we
12:47
went, oh there is there is something here we've seen this there is a template to beating Lester again
12:52
their head a little bit. Laura Shale was the perfect example. Go down and then just get in their
12:56
head and just gradually chip away and get back in and then Lester start overthinking and panicking
13:02
because it's happened in the past. Everybody in this stadium including 15 Lester players were
13:06
thinking the same thing. There's a chance here they could they could kind of wilt a little bit
13:12
but ultimately and we've probably seen the development and I'm sure Jack Nenebar is right at the
13:16
middle of everything here in terms of that development that Lester mindset was good enough to flip
13:21
the script and change their outcome on this occasion. Maybe just quickly I think that five minutes
13:26
before half time when the balls were only lined for 10 minutes. I think it's a ball scored there.
13:31
It might have been a different game in the second half but because they kept them out and I think
13:36
it's better to set it off to it's when you see the one guy making a hit you just want to get up
13:41
getting that line you want to make another hit so I think that the fence just before half time
13:47
gave him so much energy that they started believing and yeah it's actually funny a year ago
13:53
at Loftus but again when it started raining before the game everyone said yeah it will be in the
13:58
favor of the balls I knew it won't be because we not used to playing in the wet and a year ago
14:04
against this rush the fence really was so good about where those cross kicks and everything I've
14:10
been and this game all of a sudden everything just fell flat I think he kicked a cross kick once and
14:15
they was not even a wing on the wing so yeah the balls went on the game as well one other one
14:21
other thing and that really quickly Jake Jake White came right after the game and said we need
14:26
more international players at the balls if we we need to fight fire with fire all this all this
14:30
sort of stuff and I wasn't a fan of listening to that to be honest because lester where lester
14:35
are strong this is a business rugby is a business night where lester are strong there's three or
14:40
four different areas it's commercially where they're strong is their pathways it's their connection
14:44
with the schools it's the lester brand all of that contributes together to make lester this
14:51
this team full of internationals and this pathway where next year there'll be another international
14:55
player coming from the schools into their academy and it's the commercial it's a lester are an
14:59
absolute juggernaut and that they're all performers everybody that who leads all those departments
15:03
within lester they are all performing extremely well and they're doing their job incredibly well
15:08
to a low jackena bar to get the job across the lane I agree with that and I'll come back to
15:14
my question Victor because I will answer that I did listen to Jake and it comes into to the
15:21
question I'm gonna ask Victor but I agree with you and you're like like for me there are different
15:27
philosophies around world rugby right we spoke about this international you know rebel tournament
15:32
going on and the reason why I supported it is because would we be able to get richi merwana
15:38
to mwana to play for New Zealand and play in that rebel league rather than lose them to Japan so
15:46
so that figure of made a decision and this comes back to my question Victor so that figure made
15:50
a decision to leave the brotherhood of the south southern hemisphere right but if the bulls may
15:56
if the bulls had been playing in super rugby and then played that final do you think they would have
16:02
been better prepared to play lester and I said it before I said with South Africa having all
16:11
our spring box where our top players playing overseas unfortunately I mean we spoke about a two
16:17
weeks ago about the four top club teams in world reckoning there wasn't a South African team because
16:23
we just don't have the top players playing in the country I mean if you take that bulls team
16:28
you add hundred pollots young surfant and that play there uh currently are and so on the wing
16:34
all of a sudden it's a different player um I remember back in the day in super rugby iena
16:39
came here before we won this first super rugby seat listen if you want to win a super rugby or you
16:44
want a champion's cup if you want to compete with a lester then you need to have at least about
16:50
six seven fifty cap spring box you need two three players that will walk into a world 15
16:56
um but the bulls unfortunately just don't have the team to compete with the base teams in the world
17:03
at the moment and I know there's one or two signings under a pollots coming over I think you'll
17:08
make a big difference young surfant ain't is coming back from Montpellier that I rate very highly
17:15
so just those two guys will have a massive impact in that team but I mean this bulls team wouldn't
17:20
be able to beat any of the top two three um all black teams as well but but but that is not an
17:27
issue Victor because for me I think that's the political decision that South Africa have made by
17:33
letting the players play overseas so you've got to go well done the bulls there must be three or four
17:38
young guys that have played in that final that are getting experience that are then going to be
17:43
available for us see you've just you can't have everything and this is the problem that I'm talking
17:47
about like one at one of the greatest things rugby players and artists don't leave Ireland
17:52
because you don't have to pay tax or you get a tax reduction which retains your players in your
17:58
country so because we are a game now that is that is divided by riches we need each country needs
18:06
to find its way so I just think and I like Jake white who's a good man but mate that's that's
18:12
the mandate you've got right mandate is our best players are playing overseas please try and
18:17
create and no one should criticize them they say mate you made the final good on your brother
18:21
you've done a great job you've developed four guys they played lengths they got their ass cook
18:25
they'll learn move on right because every country now is working I mean I see you know Farrell's
18:30
going back to the UK because he probably wasn't that comfortable in France um so we've all got to
18:36
try and look at the retention of players differently yeah the the tax thing in Ireland just to
18:41
explain that a little bit it's 40% of the tax that you pay are of a capped 10 year period
18:47
but just to be clear it only applies um to the Irish Republic so Ulster players don't get it
18:53
if you're based in in Belfast you play pay taxes to the UK so I didn't get a single penny of tax
19:00
by whenever I retired sorry mate sorry mate luckily we've got you on the podcast now otherwise
19:06
you would be surfing exactly yeah I'm making up for a night it's a great system Andrew so if I've
19:12
understood right I think it applies to artists and stuff like you know to you to and people like
19:17
that right so so what happens is you get that 40% back at the end of your career like a lump sum
19:22
though don't you correct yeah I mean that's what we need to do in New Zealand if we want to keep
19:26
ritu moanga and and and that sort of stuff I think it's a great idea I think you were talking about
19:32
okay this um breakaway league um well it'll be nice to actually pay guys the way they should be paid
19:39
pay them well enough that after they finish their career they're going to retire well one or two
19:43
of those Irish guys they were it did leak out what lancera pen a number of their players what
19:48
their ira few supplement them and it seemed to be the number soon to be reasonably accurate there
19:53
it's about a month ago this kind of leaked out was doing the rides a number of WhatsApp groups
19:57
and then I'm sure there's a lot of people thinking oh if you get paid that for 10 years what's for
20:01
what sort of lump sum are you going to get when you finish it's a nice little pension when you're
20:06
mid 30s 36 years old um so we're probably getting slightly towards that um what you described Victor
20:13
that's did what was the wasp and what are they earning we didn't get those WhatsApp so what sort of
20:18
money was it there's there were like three or four of them in right half a million uh
20:23
tag for long 600 um and then there were like to it got to the you know kind of tier one tier two
20:30
two three down towards tier three was like 300 grand and there were guys who weren't weren't
20:35
established internationals there may be you know a handful of Irish caps or maybe 10 Irish caps
20:40
but you know still and maybe not even starting for lancera or starting the occasional game but not
20:45
regulars if everybody's fit long mat love good on them just getting back to your to your lengths
20:50
to juggernaut I think you know when when jameson gibson park gets injured and then the reserve
20:56
halfback comes on who's a young man and does scores that tri like you know you know that you're
21:02
doing something right I don't know what it's like in in um so they're frica victor but I think
21:08
you know when I look at you guys play you have a a wealth of talent that is coming through and I
21:14
think when you see you know that young guy come on and score that try you go well you know they're
21:18
going to be okay yeah the one thing I ask them because they've got like this uh squat that they
21:26
use in the urc where they almost got a three teams that can play and I ask him how do you get these
21:32
guys that's on the other side to be so sharp and it sounds like they never have like two sites
21:38
they're almost always have three squats doing all the draws and they mix and match them the old
21:44
and it's never like a A side and a B side and yeah Andrew said it that I think the systems that
21:49
they're going in place there many if you look at the coaches involved there as well it's world
21:54
class coaches and that's why they're world class team yeah I think also um the idea of starting
21:59
um Jordy Barrett and the finals probably not a bad idea so I think that paid off quite well for them
22:04
um let's just look forward to the super rugby final I'll let you lead it off JK Crusaders chiefs
22:10
what's going to happen yeah well that that was another frustrating thing if you're a blues
22:14
tragic like me um you know the yellow card from um you know Hoskins was reckless and but once again
22:25
I think if he had have been on the field when you do 42 42 rucks towards the end you know you have
22:31
one extra player then possibly the outcome might be different but you know the Crusaders had a
22:38
horrible year last year they've come back on you know you've got to be really proud of what they've
22:42
done I mean a lot of us around the country like to beat up on them um you know it was nice to have
22:48
a change and winning but um I think I want the chiefs to win just because I think they've been
22:53
knocking on the door I was really consumed when they lost to the blues um just because I'm worried
22:59
about the lengths that affect that big dimension about losing um you know losing the the those
23:06
big finals the chiefs deserve to win but can they um keep keep their metal in that final which the
23:14
Crusaders are so so good at doing and have practiced like 19 times in the last 23 seasons so
23:22
well I think if uh if the game was in Hamilton I think the chiefs might have done it um if I'm
23:29
right they're going to Christchurch okay so um yeah I'm a big fan of what Lentz has bought and
23:38
saving New Zealand um these are no harder place to do than Christchurch to go down to Christchurch
23:45
playing a semi-final final uh I won't go against the Crusaders but I mean that you've got the
23:53
chiefs like I've been knocking on the door so I'm hoping for them that they win Andrew you've got
23:58
the view on the on the super rugby final um some stop pop top I think it was it was at 30 knockout
24:03
games um uh Crusaders have won 30 to zero it's just it's just incredible and even just the mindset of
24:13
you know when you go somewhere you're you're not going to win you know you're you're going to go
24:16
somewhere no one it needs to be incredibly I was gonna say it needs to be a very special performance
24:22
or complete unique performance that has never even existed so it's hard even to imagine what
24:26
the template is to win uh somewhere like that so all of that is just history and it's just the
24:31
weight of of expectation and mindset of the players and all of that yeah and it doesn't just come
24:36
from nothing they have earned that reputation and they've earned that kind of mental edge that we'll
24:40
have and that's the sort of thing gets them across the line if you get some across the line 30 times
24:44
in the past it gets them across the line for the 31st time that's a really it's a really difficult
24:49
place to go too because unfortunately after the earthquake you know they've put up a temporary
24:54
stadium the change rooms are shit um it's cold it's just a lot of nice place to go and that
25:00
and that's the Crusaders site you know they just go well this is our home and we love it and you
25:06
can come down here and freeze in the change room and and get the shit kicked out of you um it'll
25:11
be really interesting if they can maintain that uh you know maintain that when they go to the new
25:16
stadium which will be pretty awesome I'd love to see if this brick away league is successful
25:21
eventually and all the players are getting paid like a couple million quid to play rugby
25:25
wonder if they ever still maintain that mindset let's keep the change in room shit that's let's
25:29
make them uncomfortable it's like going to boss and all lints that being in those um changes
25:37
dragons away only period yeah it's difficult the old are the old Glasgow and Fairhill
25:42
and change rooms times there it's like it's like it's like it's like getting into like a little
25:47
one of those little sleeping docks in it and a double-decker boss or something and uh and then
25:51
they'd be cheering upstairs if they win we got beat by Glasgow in that place I hated that place
25:57
I never want to go back it's like Brody did uh yeah going to those um away games yeah there's not
26:06
even a toilet you have to sit in the ground if you're at number two well JK is older than you both
26:13
so you know you remember Athletic Park and some of those horrific grounds are the sort of yeah well
26:18
I played a test match once and I made the mistake of leaving my bag on the ground in the change
26:22
room in Athletic Park and I came back after the game and the change room had flooded so everything
26:29
was wet that was a that was a really interesting place to play Victor you're in uh you're in
26:34
Japan at the moment helping the Japanese team prepare for the Pacific Nations Cup which is
26:40
obviously an incredibly important tournament for the development of those nations um so help
26:46
just give us an insight into what's going on and and what you're doing yeah I just arrived
26:51
here this morning um slept over in Tokyo last night and after 18 hour flight um arrived and we
26:59
went straight to the training ground with Owen France he arrived with me um yeah just helping
27:06
them out consulting him here for two weeks um having a look at everything they do giving my
27:13
input uh got a lot of respect for Eddie Jones good friends with him as well so yeah nice to work
27:20
with him and I think the Pacific nation's so important for these guys uh I think you guys
27:25
saw it uh with the islanders playing in the super rugby now as well um I mean if we want to grow
27:33
the game we need more competition and we need more than eight nine teams competing at the highest
27:38
level so uh for Japan America Fiji these guys need to play consistently against some of the better
27:49
opposition out there better teams out there so um yeah hopefully they can win it this year they
27:54
lost last year against Fiji in the final um hopefully they can go and stay further this year
28:00
Eddie actually started with a lot of youngsters except for Leechi that played a few games
28:06
I don't think there was anyone that did more than 20 test caps so a young team uh this year they'll be
28:12
warm mature and hopefully we can push a bit further Ricardo I was I was the coach when it got
28:18
introduced and World Rugby have done an amazing job because it's quite a big cost um but it's
28:24
an incredible tournament we started out by coming last and in the end we won the we beat Fiji in Fiji
28:34
to win the Pacific nation's Cup and like Victor said it was fundamental because now the the
28:40
Japanese are used to it because they get to tour probably but back then you know working out how
28:45
to play against a Pacific side when you're giving away a bit of weight um really understanding
28:50
and Japanese style of rugby and it was it was just it's one of the best investments ever and
28:57
you know I think the other thing that's very difficult is that and so World Rugby I think that
29:03
investment has been amazing I think this promotion relegation thing that comes up is always a big
29:11
one right so should six nations have a promotion relegation you know should should Pacific nations
29:17
have a promotion relegation with the championship or extend the championship at some stage now
29:24
I'm going somewhere really dark and and and dirty people we are touching money of the six nations
29:31
so you know try and go there and you will get your head decapitated um probably a little a little
29:37
bit easier in the southern hemisphere because the you know a lot of our competitions lose money
29:42
but we need to have a pathway after this so should the winner of Pacific Nations Cup pay the
29:50
the you know the last person in the championship be it whoever and I believe the same should happen
29:56
with the six nations you know the last team every year should play against George or whoever
30:00
that second six nations team does because then you have a real pathway you have a real pathway
30:06
to the money which then lets you stand on your own two feet having a pathway to the money
30:11
is brilliant and you know English football is a brilliant example of that meritocracy
30:16
you know a promotion relegation a lot but having a pathway to the money means also then there's
30:23
a vulnerability to the money and the commercials of the six nations I'm going to be one of those
30:28
guys then JK responding to this but it kind of feels like the it's there's less jeopardy to like
30:36
that front closed off ring fence franchise model however you call it there's less um there's
30:43
less jeopardy to that because there's no relegation but there's also just a huge vulnerability that
30:48
makes it difficult for people to invest in it and makes it introduces a huge risk factor
30:53
invest in it and it makes it I think it makes it really difficult and if rugby is getting
30:58
probably I think rugby gets a lot of things wrong but like six nations is the one thing they get
31:03
right don't fuck around with the six nations you know like um you know um experiment
31:10
innovate do different things with different leagues and for me just that's the one like if you're
31:14
going to make changes make them small don't don't introduce any risk in that
31:19
introduce risk everywhere else because that's where we need to innovate and do different things
31:23
don't get me wrong I think and a lot of New Zealanders and Australians don't get this but the
31:28
six nation I believe is the greatest tournament um that anyone can witness from a fan point of
31:34
you from a player point of view is it just the tradition is it the tradition that's made it so
31:40
great I mean the six nations will not even change your dates right and I get what you're saying
31:45
yeah I know what you're saying right you know at some stage we're emoning about the French last
31:50
year um last week on the show sort of saying well they don't give a toss about anyone else they're
31:56
going to send their second team to New Zealand because they don't really care um you know at the
32:02
end of the day I get what you're saying but how do how do Georgia then if they're going to invest
32:07
and do a great job and let's just say for the sake of it because you're iris they do a bit of
32:12
better job in their development than Ireland and they start winning a whole lot of football games
32:17
why shouldn't they have a crack at it yeah I mean everyone should be secure with their money
32:22
maybe that insecurity would would create the opposite and you go shivers of everyone's
32:27
got to work like Lentsta you know yeah maybe maybe it's like an ulster but ulster need to pull
32:32
their finger out and start developing better I don't know yeah maybe and yeah like Wales is probably
32:37
the example or or there had been Italy up until last last year or two and there had and that
32:43
conversation and debate was read harder one stage should Georgia be in the six nations rather than
32:48
Italy but unfortunately only Italy was last not when Wales was last that has been spoken about
32:54
exactly yeah so when the Italians are last all let's do promotion relegation when the
32:59
Welshers got us to last and I wrote good exactly but ultimately the driver and we all talk about
33:06
like we're all rugby people we want to see competition we want to see the game develop but ultimately
33:12
it'll be a commercial decision more people want to go to room for the weekend then they want to
33:16
go to Tbilisi and actually we probably might see a good example of how you compelling Tbilisi
33:22
product rugby product can be when Ireland tour there in in July one test the fifth July and I'm
33:31
led to believe it's it's it's an incredible level of intensity and kind of rivalry and it's
33:38
like a soccer crowd and if anything we need to learn from from soccer it's you know like play like
33:44
I toured Argentinian 2014 and it was people paying for blood proper soccer support or rugby supporters
33:52
with a soccer mindset and that creates a unique unique product and that maybe that's what Georgia
33:58
got going for it right just before we go JK we've got the all black team being named next week
34:04
so if you've got any bolters for us my my little fast winner from the chiefs
34:10
Leroy Carter Leroy Carter yeah come from sevens is he is he hopefully still
34:17
fine but like what what sevens tour term was repeated efforts like he's just got this engine on him
34:25
and the second thing and this is this is interesting for you to think about Victor I don't think New
34:30
Zealanders had has had real real pace besides will Jordan on the wings now I love a balance of
34:36
wingers and and Andrew you might like to contribute to this because Victor you should stay out of
34:42
this conversation mate just let us good looking guys out the at the back talk about that but I like
34:47
the balance I like the balance of you know a big winger and a real fast winger and I don't think
34:54
New Zealand's had that just recently when Rico was on the wing we had real out now pace with him
35:01
you know sever Reese is a dancer but there's been a couple of occasions where he's lacked the pace
35:05
to finish and I just think when you look at the South African sides Irish sides and some of the
35:10
European sides now there's just a real out now pace so that's that's for me Ricardo is what I
35:17
think we'll we'll see just that opportunity for Lee Roy to bring his pace as long as he's not
35:24
injured obviously yeah it's hard it's hard to replace Pierce from an Irish perspective actually
35:28
there's a lot of that would be one of the criticisms of Irish rugby there's actually a lack of
35:34
outnumbered athleticism I'm pure par on pace my conscience a kind of a distributor James Lowe
35:41
he's a powerful winger but neither of them are proper sprinters so yeah Irish rugby probably
35:46
suffers from the same thing and it's it's something it's death there has to be a place for it
35:52
there it's it's a stereotype you give the ball to put the ball in the hands of your fast winger
35:56
he scores tries and that's it's so so important you need someone to be able to get the ball across
36:01
the line and to be able to win one-on-ones I think I I actually said it last year before one of
36:07
the all-black's game when I looked at the back line and I just said it's not the all-black's
36:12
default because normally when you look at the all-black's team it's like maybe 12 got x factor 13
36:20
was maybe someone solid or the other way around one of the three in the back three was so dangerous
36:25
whenever they got the ball there was trouble so I think definitely that was something that was
36:31
missing with the all-black's in the last few years and I mean we were always almost chasing this
36:37
bigger force the wingers like New Zealand had in the past and then all of a sudden russi win
36:44
then he gave our some of our seven players opportunity and I mean they've been magic for us whenever
36:51
they touch the ball even if there's a line in front of them somehow they can get through it
36:56
with their feet and then they've got that pace but the other thing that you need to wear that if
37:01
you pick a smaller winger is they need to be brave and they need to be able to get up in the
37:07
air and win those balls back and that's something we were lucky with with orange and with
37:14
Archman which are other wingers name Colby Colby and they're dangerous but they brave and
37:21
they're good offenders as well just talking about selection russis picked a random prop from
37:28
Edinburgh Victor yeah we've got a we've got a lot of injuries injuries that lose it at the moment
37:35
we've picked a look at it from carnivorous while I think but isn't that interesting
37:41
that they had all of a sudden if some of these guys decide to leave a bit earlier because I
37:45
don't feel they've got a chance you know and they don't have to make themselves available for
37:50
Scotland or Ireland any more like our guys do they can actually hang out and russis going to
37:56
pick them that's that's a pretty big story I reckon I mean Visa was the same at eight then
38:05
playful South Africa went over played for least they really played well and russi picked him so
38:11
that's one thing that I still struggle with is guys going over the young age and then getting
38:19
picked to come back so I'm still fighting with that one I would love them to first play in South
38:24
Africa make their name play for the box and then go for the money but yeah russis point of
38:32
use if you're South African and sometimes you might even see they might be picked by
38:39
Scotland or Wales or Ireland in there it just gives them one taste match so they can't be picked so
38:44
sometimes you do that as well so yeah he's very open he doesn't mind where they play where they
38:50
start if they South African he will pick them I don't always agree with that I think we've been
38:55
a rapper that there because the last thing I want Victor is for you to be like for one of Eddie
38:59
Jones's meetings so thanks very much gentlemen and we'll catch you on rivals next week
39:05
Saturday 80 for me Victor I'll do thanks guys