Latest / Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe / Why do we sleep and dream? (featuring Dr. Gina Poe)

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Why do we sleep and dream? (featuring Dr. Gina Poe) · Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe

0:06
Speaker 1: Sleep.
0:08
Speaker 2: We spend around a third of our entire lives doing it,
0:11
Speaker 2: completely oblivious to the world around us. Some animals, like cheetahs, toads,
0:17
Speaker 2: and squirrels, spend at least half of their lives asleep.
0:21
Speaker 1: It's kind of baffling when you think about it.
0:23
Speaker 2: Time spent sleeping is time that can't be spent doing
0:26
Speaker 2: things like searching for food, and if you're a wild animal,
0:29
Speaker 2: time spent sleeping is time when you're less able to
0:32
Speaker 2: detect a predator in the area.
0:34
Speaker 1: So why do we sleep?
0:36
Speaker 2: It turns out this activity that swallows up so much
0:40
Speaker 2: of our short time on this planet is really hard
0:43
Speaker 2: to study, but scientists have made some headway on this
0:46
Speaker 2: question of why do we sleep? And today we're going
0:49
Speaker 2: to talk to doctor Gina Poe about why we sleep
0:52
Speaker 2: and chat with her about other fascinating questions like do
0:55
Speaker 2: mushrooms sleep, does an octopus dream? And does all all
1:00
Speaker 2: of our brains sleep at the same time or do
1:02
Speaker 2: some parts fall asleep before the others?
1:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Sleepy Universe.
1:21
Speaker 2: Hi.
1:21
Speaker 3: I'm Daniel, I'm a particle physicist and I don't sleep
1:25
Speaker 3: particularly well.
1:26
Speaker 1: Hi I'm Kelly Wiersmith.
1:27
Speaker 2: I study parasites and space, and I'm not gonna blame
1:29
Speaker 2: it on the parasites. But I don't sleep very well either,
1:32
Speaker 2: But I love sleep, Like when eight to thirty comes
1:35
Speaker 2: around every night, it is like the only thing on
1:37
Speaker 2: my mind. Zach is like, it's only a thirty Are
1:40
Speaker 2: you going to pull an all niner and stay up
1:42
Speaker 2: past nine? And I'm like, I'm gonna do everything I
1:45
Speaker 2: can and be in bed by the time nine o'clock
1:46
Speaker 2: rolls around.
1:47
Speaker 3: Young people don't appreciate how nice it is to be
1:49
Speaker 3: home in the evening and have no plans, I.
1:52
Speaker 2: Know, and have a comfy bed. Ah the blessing that
1:55
Speaker 2: is a comfy bed. It's one of my favorite things.
1:58
Speaker 4: It is.
1:59
Speaker 3: Yes, when sleep well, it is definitely one of the
2:01
Speaker 3: best things in the world. But when it's fraught, man,
2:03
Speaker 3: I've had nights that lasted a thousand years.
2:05
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, no, me too.
2:07
Speaker 2: We went camping once and it was a little bit
2:09
Speaker 2: rainy and wait, so we weren't really camping. My daughter
2:12
Speaker 2: and I were sleeping on the trampoline and it started
2:14
Speaker 2: to rain and then it got really cold, and then
2:17
Speaker 2: my back hurt. But I didn't want to ruin the
2:19
Speaker 2: night for her, and so I tried to make it work.
2:21
Speaker 2: And then at like five am, I was like EIGHTA,
2:24
Speaker 2: we're moving inside.
2:26
Speaker 1: I needed a nap. This is miserable.
2:28
Speaker 3: Well, it's amazing to me that sleep is something we
2:30
Speaker 3: just cannot do with that that we have to accomplish
2:32
Speaker 3: every single day, and also that it's something you can't
2:35
Speaker 3: really try to do. It's like something you have to
2:38
Speaker 3: try to not do, you know though, Like the harder
2:41
Speaker 3: you work at sleeping, the more you get worked up
2:43
Speaker 3: about it, and the harder it is too sleep. It's incredible.
2:47
Speaker 3: It seems so fragile. It's incredible that it ever works.
2:49
Speaker 3: I don't know.
2:50
Speaker 2: Yes, I think you and I are making clear that
2:51
Speaker 2: we don't have a very good relationship with sleep at all.
2:54
Speaker 1: But I wake up a million times in the middle
2:56
Speaker 1: of the night, and it's a.
2:57
Speaker 3: Thing, and it makes me wonder, like why we evolved this,
3:00
Speaker 3: why it's such an important part of our life cycle?
3:02
Speaker 3: If it's yet so fraud and so fragile, right, it
3:05
Speaker 3: seems like kind of a bad idea.
3:07
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's possible that you and I
3:08
Speaker 2: are just broken in a particular way. And that this
3:12
Speaker 2: problem with sleep is not present for everyone. I mean,
3:14
Speaker 2: my kids conk out and they are out and it's
3:17
Speaker 2: fine for them.
3:18
Speaker 3: But that's also an age depending thing, right. A lot
3:20
Speaker 3: of kids have no problem with sleep, sleep all night,
3:22
Speaker 3: sleep anywhere, all the time. But then as you get
3:25
Speaker 3: older sometimes it gets harder to make it work.
3:27
Speaker 1: I agree.
3:28
Speaker 2: But so today's episode, we're talking to a sleep experts
3:31
Speaker 2: and we forgot to ask her about tips for how
3:33
Speaker 2: to solve our sleeping problems. She didn't solve our sleep problems, yes,
3:36
Speaker 2: but a guest wanted to know about dreams, why we dream,
3:40
Speaker 2: interpretations of dreams, et cetera. So, what is the weirdest
3:44
Speaker 2: dream you've ever had?
3:45
Speaker 1: Daniel?
3:45
Speaker 2: And let's keep it short, because I think notoriously people
3:47
Speaker 2: don't want to hear about dreams that other people have had.
3:51
Speaker 2: So real, quick, weirdest dream you've had?
3:53
Speaker 3: Well, as you know, I think a lot about aliens,
3:56
Speaker 3: and so lott of my weird dreams have aliens in them,
3:59
Speaker 3: and they're pretty weird and sometimes they eat me or
4:02
Speaker 3: my children, and sometimes it's my fault. Oh no, And
4:05
Speaker 3: so yeah, those are pretty weird dreams.
4:07
Speaker 2: There are so many insights about you wrapped up in
4:10
Speaker 2: that story. For me, it was my mom and I
4:14
Speaker 2: teamed up with the Berenstein Bears. We were a crime
4:16
Speaker 2: fighting organization and a murderer was on the loose and
4:18
Speaker 2: the murderer killed me because my mom, you know, went
4:22
Speaker 2: off down a hallway and we split up, which classically
4:24
Speaker 2: you should never do, and the Berenstein Bears had gone
4:26
Speaker 2: another way and anyway, big mistake. Yeah, But all right,
4:30
Speaker 2: So I don't know that there's much you can extract
4:33
Speaker 2: about me out of that dream in particular, but we
4:36
Speaker 2: are going to talk to an expert on sleep and dreams,
4:39
Speaker 2: doctor Gina Poe, and she's going to answer all of
4:42
Speaker 2: our questions about sleep and dreams.
4:44
Speaker 3: And she's going to blow your mind about what it
4:46
Speaker 3: means to sleep across the animal world.
4:48
Speaker 2: And so let's start by listening to the question from
4:51
Speaker 2: our listener that got this whole interview started.
4:54
Speaker 4: Hi, Daniel and Kelly. This is Carrie from the Pacific Northwest,
4:58
Speaker 4: and I was wondering if you can do show on dreams,
5:02
Speaker 4: why we dream, what part of our brain is being
5:05
Speaker 4: used when we dream, and just everything about dreams.
5:09
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you Kerre for that wonderful question, and
5:11
Speaker 3: all of you out there listening, if you haven't already
5:14
Speaker 3: fallen asleep to this podcast, you are welcome to send
5:17
Speaker 3: us your questions about the universe. We will try to
5:20
Speaker 3: answer them, and we will sometimes rope in a world
5:23
Speaker 3: class expert to give you answers.
5:25
Speaker 2: And let's bring that world class expert on now. On
5:28
Speaker 2: today's show, we have doctor Gina Poe. She's the Eleanor
5:32
Speaker 2: Leslie Professor of Innovative Brain Research at UCLA. In addition
5:36
Speaker 2: to research, she directs three university programs aimed at supporting
5:40
Speaker 2: undergraduates who are underrepresented in STEM fields. She's done so
5:44
Speaker 2: many incredible things. I'm just going to cherry pick a few.
5:47
Speaker 2: Gina and her colleagues sent four rats to space as
5:50
Speaker 2: part of NASA's Neurolab mission to study how brains map
5:54
Speaker 2: the three D world in weightlessness where you don't really
5:56
Speaker 2: know what side is up. And she's well known for
5:58
Speaker 2: her discovery that's is important not just for remembering things,
6:02
Speaker 2: but also for forgetting things. Her lab at UCLA focuses
6:06
Speaker 2: on sleep and memory, which are the topics we're going
6:08
Speaker 2: to be chatting about today. Welcome to the show, doctor Poe.
6:11
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
6:13
Speaker 1: We're super excited, Gina.
6:15
Speaker 3: I have a first question, which is sort of goofy,
6:17
Speaker 3: which is what do you call a rat you send
6:19
Speaker 3: into space? Is it a ratronaut?
6:21
Speaker 5: Yes? Actually great?
6:24
Speaker 3: And do they have to undergo like a rigorous selection
6:27
Speaker 3: process you know where they like run on treadmills for hours?
6:30
Speaker 5: Actually yes, yes, we started with forty rats and ended
6:34
Speaker 5: up before so and.
6:35
Speaker 3: Those were the four that had the rat stuff.
6:37
Speaker 5: Yeah, the rat stuff nice, amazing great.
6:43
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's start big with why do we think
6:46
Speaker 2: we sleep? And how well do we understand the answer
6:49
Speaker 2: to this question.
6:50
Speaker 5: There are lots of answers to that question. I think
6:55
Speaker 5: that there probably is one essential reason why we sleep,
6:58
Speaker 5: but we don't know the answer to that question. But
7:00
Speaker 5: we do know a lot of essential things that happen
7:04
Speaker 5: during sleep with which we can't do without. For example,
7:08
Speaker 5: energy metabolism goes way up when we're asleep. What I
7:12
Speaker 5: mean by that is not actually metabolism, I mean restoring
7:16
Speaker 5: energy stores to our entire body. Our mitochondria wake up
7:20
Speaker 5: when we go to sleep, and they are doing their
7:23
Speaker 5: job much much faster and restoring atp to all of
7:27
Speaker 5: our cells. So that's just one essential function of probably
7:33
Speaker 5: twenty that we know of.
7:35
Speaker 3: Why do we have to be asleep for mitochondria to
7:38
Speaker 3: do that? Why can't they just do it while we're
7:40
Speaker 3: doing our thing?
7:41
Speaker 5: I don't know. That's a good question. That's actually a
7:45
Speaker 5: fairly new discovery.
7:47
Speaker 1: And is that happening in all of our cells or
7:49
Speaker 1: just our brain cells.
7:51
Speaker 5: It's been discovered in fruit flies brain cells. Okay, so
7:56
Speaker 5: that's a good question. I imagine it's going on everywhere.
8:00
Speaker 5: But we know that the longer we're awake, the more
8:04
Speaker 5: free adentiicine builds up in our brain, and that free
8:07
Speaker 5: adenticine is a signal for sleepiness. And as soon as
8:11
Speaker 5: we go to sleep within thirty minutes, that freodentisine has
8:15
Speaker 5: been repackaged by mitochondria into ATP. So the freodentisine levels
8:21
Speaker 5: go way down when we're asleep in the first twenty minutes,
8:24
Speaker 5: which is probably why power naps are called power naps.
8:28
Speaker 2: I do love me a power nap, me too. And
8:30
Speaker 2: now I feel way more justified in that you said.
8:33
Speaker 3: There are like twenty different things that happened when we sleep.
8:35
Speaker 3: One of them is we're restoring energy stores. What are
8:38
Speaker 3: some of the other ones.
8:39
Speaker 5: Okay, so well, we know that we consolidate memories when
8:43
Speaker 5: we're asleep, that's my field of research, and that without sleep,
8:47
Speaker 5: we don't put them away long term and our memory stories.
8:51
Speaker 5: Of course, memory is really important for adaptation to our environment,
8:55
Speaker 5: finding where our home is, et cetera. And so that
8:58
Speaker 5: would you can imagine that would be important for life itself.
9:02
Speaker 5: It doesn't seem like all animals should have to learn things,
9:06
Speaker 5: but in fact, every time we've tried to teach any
9:09
Speaker 5: animal something, they've been able to learn it. Even mushrooms
9:12
Speaker 5: can learn it. And there's some interesting study by vlad
9:16
Speaker 5: Vyazovsky that shows that even mushrooms need sleep.
9:20
Speaker 1: Well, what does sleep look like in a mushroom?
9:22
Speaker 5: Like, what are they missing exactly? I don't know, you'll
9:25
Speaker 5: have to ask Glad, but it came up with a
9:27
Speaker 5: very convincing argument that mushrooms do sleep.
9:30
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, so then that I'm going to jump
9:32
Speaker 2: ahead then to another question that I had before, we
9:35
Speaker 2: go back to purposes of sleep. Okay, so I would
9:38
Speaker 2: not have guessed you were going to tell us that
9:39
Speaker 2: mushroom sleep. That's an amazing surprise. I'm going to try
9:43
Speaker 2: sneaking up on some of the mushrooms in my yard.
9:45
Speaker 3: Now, Kelly, they're busy consolidating their memories of the day.
9:49
Speaker 3: You're going to ruin it for them.
9:50
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
9:51
Speaker 2: I know all the tricks they were trying to learn. So, so,
9:55
Speaker 2: what organisms sleep or like? Maybe it sounds like the
9:58
Speaker 2: better question is what organists don't sleep, given that even
10:01
Speaker 2: mushrooms sleep, Like, do bacteria sleep?
10:04
Speaker 5: That is a good question. They definitely have a circadian rhythm,
10:07
Speaker 5: so they have a time when they're not actively pulsing
10:10
Speaker 5: or whatever and times when they are. So yeah, it's
10:15
Speaker 5: a good question. I don't know the answer to that one,
10:17
Speaker 5: and it would be difficult probably to tell in bacteria
10:21
Speaker 5: except for that sort of change in activity. I guess
10:24
Speaker 5: it would be the only way you could tell. Certainly,
10:27
Speaker 5: our gut bacteria are doing different things at night versus
10:31
Speaker 5: the day, and their rhythm gets messed up when we
10:35
Speaker 5: have jet lag, for example.
10:37
Speaker 3: And in all these creatures that sleep, is it all
10:40
Speaker 3: linked to the same day night cycle.
10:42
Speaker 5: Yes, except that, for example, there are rats and mice
10:46
Speaker 5: who sleep during the day. So there are some things
10:49
Speaker 5: that are flipped. The switch is flipped. But even for
10:52
Speaker 5: rats and mice, Melatonin, which is the hormone of darkness,
10:55
Speaker 5: is higher during the night when they're awake and active.
11:00
Speaker 3: So I have a question based on a tiny amount
11:03
Speaker 3: of anecdotal data. When I go to sleep, my dog
11:06
Speaker 3: is in one place, and if I ever wake up
11:07
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night, he's sleeping in another place,
11:09
Speaker 3: And in the morning he's in a third place because
11:11
Speaker 3: he has like nineteen different places he likes to sleep
11:13
Speaker 3: in our house. Okay, so my question to you is
11:16
Speaker 3: what is my dog doing all night? Does he just
11:20
Speaker 3: take naps and then move around? Is he, like, you know,
11:23
Speaker 3: up learning how to make souflets in the middle of
11:25
Speaker 3: the night. Like, why don't dogs sleep all the way
11:27
Speaker 3: through the night? What's going on in my house? Gina?
11:29
Speaker 5: Tell me dogs and cats predators actually sleep a lot
11:34
Speaker 5: more than prey species do. They sleep about sixteen hours
11:40
Speaker 5: a day in a nice home environment. So, yes, your
11:44
Speaker 5: dog is waking up more than you do, probably at
11:46
Speaker 5: night and maybe going to get some water or just
11:50
Speaker 5: checking out the house and finding a cooler place to sleep.
11:53
Speaker 5: But if you were to put a camera on your dog,
11:56
Speaker 5: your dog isn't roaming around and hunting like a cat.
12:00
Speaker 5: A cat is more crepuscular, so they have a lot
12:03
Speaker 5: of activity in the morning and in the evening, but
12:07
Speaker 5: they sleep a lot during the day, and they sleep
12:10
Speaker 5: a lot during the night as well. But dogs are
12:12
Speaker 5: a lot more diurnal like we are. So, yeah, your
12:15
Speaker 5: dog is pretty much rest assured, sleeping all night, just
12:18
Speaker 5: getting up once in a while when they're uncomfortable or
12:21
Speaker 5: they're done with the sleep cycle.
12:22
Speaker 3: I was kind of hoping he was writing like the
12:24
Speaker 3: great American novel in the middle.
12:26
Speaker 2: Yes, so my brain is a little bit stuck on
12:30
Speaker 2: the mushroom thing, and it's making me wonder how do
12:34
Speaker 2: we define sleep? Because you know, I thought maybe we
12:37
Speaker 2: would define it by like brain waves or things that
12:39
Speaker 2: you wouldn't be measuring in a mushroom. So let's let's
12:42
Speaker 2: step back even farther than how do we define sleep?
12:45
Speaker 5: Yeah, so there are animals we can't define sleep via
12:48
Speaker 5: brain waves because their brain isn't organized the same way
12:51
Speaker 5: ours is. In order to be able to see those
12:53
Speaker 5: brain waves, we have to have an alignment of neurons,
12:57
Speaker 5: because each neuron has you know, a t any little
13:00
Speaker 5: electrical signal, and when they're all aligned in the same orientation,
13:05
Speaker 5: you can see that electrical signal sums, and we can
13:07
Speaker 5: see it from a place as distant as the surface
13:10
Speaker 5: of your scalp. There are three layers of skin, four
13:15
Speaker 5: layers of skin actually between your actual brain cells and
13:19
Speaker 5: the electrode, plus bone and water. So you can imagine
13:23
Speaker 5: that that signal would be reduced the further distance you
13:27
Speaker 5: are away from your brain.
13:29
Speaker 3: So that's what brain waves are. Sorry to interrupt, I
13:31
Speaker 3: just I've always wondered brainwaves are measurement of the electrical
13:35
Speaker 3: field caused by firing neurons.
13:37
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly. They actually don't even have to fire. The
13:41
Speaker 5: membrane potential just has to depolarize or hyperpolarize so become
13:46
Speaker 5: more positive or negative.
13:48
Speaker 3: It's amazing there's any signal in there at all. Yeah,
13:51
Speaker 3: why are the neurons oriented physically in the same way
13:55
Speaker 3: so that they can constructively build a signal? That's incredible.
13:58
Speaker 5: Yet why is a great question. I don't know the
14:01
Speaker 5: answer to that, but they are the biggest neurons in
14:05
Speaker 5: our brain. Are these things in our cortex called pyramidal cells,
14:09
Speaker 5: which are shaped like pyramids, which is why they're called
14:12
Speaker 5: parametal cells, And they are just oriented on the folds
14:16
Speaker 5: of our brain facing outward, and there are tufts of
14:21
Speaker 5: antenna at every pole of the pyramid, and the ones
14:25
Speaker 5: at the base are called baseler dendrites, and the ones
14:28
Speaker 5: at the top are called aprical dendrites. And the apical
14:32
Speaker 5: dendrites are the ones that reach all the way to
14:34
Speaker 5: the very surface of our brain, and they are the
14:36
Speaker 5: ones that get communication from other areas of our cortex.
14:40
Speaker 5: So when we're thinking thoughts, that's all come again our
14:44
Speaker 5: apical dendrites. When we're feeling feelings that are coming from
14:47
Speaker 5: the outside, like our sensations, they come in at the
14:51
Speaker 5: baselin drites, and the ones that are closest to the
14:54
Speaker 5: apical dendrites, not the distant ones, So they're just all
14:58
Speaker 5: aligned like that in our stray of our cortex, or
15:01
Speaker 5: as you've probably seen them, they're folded. So it's only
15:05
Speaker 5: at the top of those striations that you can get
15:09
Speaker 5: the electrodes and see what's going on. So we can
15:12
Speaker 5: with our electrical EEG electrodes, you can only see a
15:16
Speaker 5: small percentage of what's going on in our brains, and
15:19
Speaker 5: only what's at the surface because as the distance increases,
15:24
Speaker 5: the signal decreases. Exponentially.
15:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we use that information to define sleep
15:30
Speaker 2: in organisms where that works. Yes, is that otherwise what
15:34
Speaker 2: kinds of things would we be looking for in organisms
15:37
Speaker 2: that have a more like distributed nervous system where it's
15:39
Speaker 2: harder to do that kind of stuff.
15:41
Speaker 5: Yeah, So organisms like the octopus, it has more ganglia, like,
15:47
Speaker 5: it doesn't have a cortex like we have. And so
15:50
Speaker 5: the neurons are there, of course they're there. They are
15:52
Speaker 5: all over their legs and central brain area, but they're
15:58
Speaker 5: organized in very kind of more random fashion. So even
16:02
Speaker 5: though they're just as electrically active as ours our, the
16:05
Speaker 5: electricity you know, is going in different directions and so
16:09
Speaker 5: it doesn't summate, so we can't really see them with electrodes.
16:13
Speaker 5: So instead we need behavioral measures. And so animals usually
16:20
Speaker 5: have a typical sleeping position or positions. Even the sea
16:24
Speaker 5: elegans worm has this typical sleeping position and they sleep
16:28
Speaker 5: like it's called a shepherd's hook. It looks kind of
16:30
Speaker 5: like a question mark. That's their sleeping position. It's kind
16:33
Speaker 5: of cute. Yeah, it's really cute. And then they're all
16:37
Speaker 5: these animals are less sensitive to what's coming in from
16:40
Speaker 5: the outside, so I wouldn't suggest this, but you can
16:43
Speaker 5: tap on your fish tank at night and the fish
16:46
Speaker 5: won't respond the same way that they respond during the day.
16:49
Speaker 5: During the day they'll respond right away and swim around,
16:53
Speaker 5: but at night they'll just sit there and maybe a
16:56
Speaker 5: few seconds later they'll sort of arouse and respond. So
17:00
Speaker 5: they're less responsive to the outside world. But it is
17:03
Speaker 5: a reversible state. To determine and distinguish it from coma,
17:09
Speaker 5: it's homeostatically regulated, which means that all animals that you
17:13
Speaker 5: deprive of sleep will try and get more sleep the
17:16
Speaker 5: next opportunity they have. So there is a great study
17:20
Speaker 5: of jellyfish, which don't have a central nervous system either
17:24
Speaker 5: at cal Tech that showed that these cassiopeia, which are
17:28
Speaker 5: these upside down jellyfish sleep at night like we would expect,
17:32
Speaker 5: and what they do is they find the bottom of
17:33
Speaker 5: the tank or whatever they find something to rest on
17:36
Speaker 5: to sleep, and then they just start pulsing more slowly.
17:40
Speaker 5: And then if you wake them up a bunch of
17:43
Speaker 5: times at night by giving them a jet of water
17:46
Speaker 5: or something to deserve them from their sleeping position, they
17:49
Speaker 5: will wake up, pulse faster, try and find the bottom
17:52
Speaker 5: again and go right back to sleep. And if you
17:55
Speaker 5: do that all night long, the next day they'll map
17:58
Speaker 5: a lot more. WHOA, I know.
18:01
Speaker 3: Do you need some sort of ethics review to torture
18:03
Speaker 3: these jellyfish this way all night long?
18:05
Speaker 5: You know?
18:06
Speaker 3: Is that a yes or no?
18:08
Speaker 5: I wasn't sure, no, but thankfully not.
18:10
Speaker 2: How many people are doing this so if they had vertebrae,
18:14
Speaker 2: you would have to yeah, right, exactly exactly.
18:17
Speaker 3: Oh, I see, So rats have ethical protection, but jellyfish
18:21
Speaker 3: you can torture as much as you like all their
18:22
Speaker 3: larve right right.
18:23
Speaker 2: Wow, we would not call it torture, Daniel, the physicists.
18:28
Speaker 3: I'm trying to speak here on behalf of the jellyfish.
18:30
Speaker 3: This sounds like torture to me. You come in my
18:32
Speaker 3: room and wake me up ten times a midd of
18:34
Speaker 3: the night, I'm not going to be very pleasant the
18:36
Speaker 3: next day. I'm going to do more than just nap,
18:38
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that much.
18:39
Speaker 5: Yeah, you can't get their consent with people. You know,
18:43
Speaker 5: you get people volunteering for these kinds of studies all
18:46
Speaker 5: the time, and yeah it's not great, but they you know,
18:49
Speaker 5: they like contributing to our knowledge of what sleep is
18:53
Speaker 5: about and seeing what their own sleeper is like. We
18:56
Speaker 5: can't give the same feedback to jellyfish, but we do
18:59
Speaker 5: allow them to sleep the next day nop as much
19:02
Speaker 5: as you want. You can also give them caffeine. It
19:05
Speaker 5: works the same way. It keeps them up and makes
19:08
Speaker 5: them more active. Interestingly, in that study of jellyfish sleep,
19:12
Speaker 5: they found that they pulse more slowly at night. If
19:15
Speaker 5: you wake them up, they pulse faster. But in a
19:18
Speaker 5: I think it was figure two of that paper they
19:20
Speaker 5: don't even describe. There are periods of time when they're
19:22
Speaker 5: not pulsing at all, which is, you know, like not
19:25
Speaker 5: breathing essentially for twenty or thirty seconds at a time,
19:30
Speaker 5: and that could mirror the second stage of sleep, which
19:34
Speaker 5: I'm sure we're going to get into later, which is
19:36
Speaker 5: our dream stage at sleep, and in order to not
19:39
Speaker 5: act out our active dreams, we actively inhibit all of
19:42
Speaker 5: our muscles, not our breathing muscles, thankfully, not our heart muscles, thankfully,
19:47
Speaker 5: but all of our anti gravity muscles, so that we
19:52
Speaker 5: are acting out our dreams. And it seems like jellyfish
19:56
Speaker 5: have the same kind of called atonia no muscle tone,
20:00
Speaker 5: that we have, and they do it periodically throughout the night.
20:03
Speaker 5: The authors of that paper didn't describe a second state
20:06
Speaker 5: of sleep for jellyfish because I guess they just wanted
20:09
Speaker 5: to avoid controversy, or maybe they had it in the
20:11
Speaker 5: original draft and reviewers just said you need more evidence.
20:16
Speaker 5: But also spiders and octopus they all have this second
20:21
Speaker 5: stage of sleep. And when spiders have atonia, what do
20:25
Speaker 5: you imagine that they look like?
20:26
Speaker 1: Do they look like the dead dried up?
20:28
Speaker 5: Yes? Really they do.
20:30
Speaker 2: Wait, so like if I find a black widow in
20:32
Speaker 2: my garage and it's all dried up, it might just
20:34
Speaker 2: be sleeping and not dad.
20:35
Speaker 5: It might just be sleeping.
20:36
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, that's a little scary.
20:40
Speaker 5: Okay, it might be in that RAM sleep. Now. We
20:42
Speaker 5: call it ram sleep in humans because we have rapid
20:45
Speaker 5: eye movements and that corresponds with our dreaming. Actually, spiders
20:50
Speaker 5: also have rapid eye movements during that state.
20:53
Speaker 1: And do all of their eyes move?
20:54
Speaker 5: Yeah, their eyes move. You can only see it in
20:57
Speaker 5: very young spiders where they don't have the dark yet coloring,
21:01
Speaker 5: so you can see through their carapace and see their
21:04
Speaker 5: eyes moving and also coolly. When we're in rams sleep,
21:08
Speaker 5: our eyes don't always move conjointly like if they do
21:12
Speaker 5: when we're awake, so we could have one eye moving
21:15
Speaker 5: this way and it's just not for some reason. Maybe
21:17
Speaker 5: our brainstem areas that are helping our eyes track the
21:21
Speaker 5: world are not coordinated when we're in reun sleep. And
21:24
Speaker 5: that's true at spiders as well. So during wakefulness their
21:27
Speaker 5: eyes move together in a ram sleep state, which we
21:29
Speaker 5: can call rams sleep, and spiders, because their eyes are
21:31
Speaker 5: also rapidly moving, their eyes don't move conjointly. In cockroaches
21:37
Speaker 5: they have rapid intennel movement sleep, so they're antenna well
21:41
Speaker 5: you know, hu jiggle.
21:44
Speaker 3: That almost sounds cute wow.
21:46
Speaker 5: And bees as well. Bees will have rapid intennel movements sleep.
21:49
Speaker 2: And do we have evidence for these animals that they're
21:52
Speaker 2: also consolidating memories while they're sleeping or do we think
21:55
Speaker 2: they're doing something different.
21:57
Speaker 5: I don't think they're doing something different, for example, in
21:59
Speaker 5: the act, so they don't. Actually I don't know if
22:03
Speaker 5: anybody's looked at the eye movements of octopuses. I think
22:06
Speaker 5: probably they have, and they probably do move as I recall,
22:09
Speaker 5: But any case, what they do, one of the ways
22:11
Speaker 5: you can tell they're in rem sleep is that they
22:14
Speaker 5: flash their colors, so their camouflage gets flashy, like, for example,
22:21
Speaker 5: a dog twitching its pause.
22:23
Speaker 3: That sounds like science fiction. That's crazy, Yeah, I.
22:26
Speaker 5: Know it is crazy. So they have a sleeping position too.
22:29
Speaker 5: They don't like to sleep except if they're safe, like
22:32
Speaker 5: crawled into a hole in a rock or something like that,
22:36
Speaker 5: because they also are prey for other sea animals, so
22:40
Speaker 5: they try and get to a safe place and a
22:42
Speaker 5: place where when they're flashing they can't be seen.
22:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd want to hide that color party, yeah, for
22:47
Speaker 2: sure from predators.
22:48
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.
22:49
Speaker 3: So this has been a fascinating tour of sleep across
22:52
Speaker 3: the animal kingdom and the fungal kingdom and all sorts
22:55
Speaker 3: of crazy stuff. But it sounds to me like the
22:56
Speaker 3: fundamental answer is that we don't really know what sleep is.
23:00
Speaker 3: Is we have this thing in humans we call sleep,
23:02
Speaker 3: and we can find correlated activities and other creatures that
23:05
Speaker 3: are not the same because they have different brains and
23:07
Speaker 3: different bodies, but we still call them sleep. What is
23:11
Speaker 3: the thing we can say unifies sleep across all of
23:14
Speaker 3: these folks. How do we know we're not just projecting
23:17
Speaker 3: our human experience onto mushrooms and black widows?
23:21
Speaker 5: Right? Well, I think the less responsive to the environment.
23:24
Speaker 5: You're not reproducing, you're not ingesting food. Actually in ungulates,
23:31
Speaker 5: let's go back to ungulates for a second. I think
23:34
Speaker 5: that was studied in I think it was camels ruminants,
23:38
Speaker 5: not ungulates ruminants. So they were thought to sleep a
23:43
Speaker 5: lot less because they're actively chewing a lot. But in
23:46
Speaker 5: fact they can chew while they're asleep. So it is
23:49
Speaker 5: a really good question.
23:50
Speaker 2: WHOA, I'm lucky I can't chew while I'm asleep. I
23:53
Speaker 2: know i'd get myself in trouble. I do love food.
23:57
Speaker 5: Yeah, well it's kind of like tea grinding, I guess
24:01
Speaker 5: in humans, but you know they have something to chew
24:03
Speaker 5: on their cud. So that's a really good question. And
24:06
Speaker 5: I think that it's still controversial, Daniel, because if you
24:10
Speaker 5: define it behaviorally, you would say someone who's sleepwalking isn't
24:15
Speaker 5: sleeping because they're walking. But in fact we know because
24:19
Speaker 5: we can measure eeg that they are asleep while they're sleepwalking.
24:23
Speaker 5: So it is tricky. But we do also know that
24:26
Speaker 5: the brain at least is doing something wildly different, wildly
24:31
Speaker 5: different than when we're awake. We are not processing the
24:34
Speaker 5: outside world in the slow wave state of sleep, which
24:38
Speaker 5: is one of the two states. Our brain activity electrically
24:42
Speaker 5: is periodically active and inactive, and the frequency is about
24:47
Speaker 5: one hurts. So we have this blip of activity and
24:51
Speaker 5: then a lot of silence, and this silence is something
24:54
Speaker 5: you never see during wakefulness, and then a little blip
24:58
Speaker 5: of activity and then a lot of silence, And so
25:01
Speaker 5: consciousness is probably completely severed during those periods of time
25:06
Speaker 5: when the brain is completely inactive, and those little blips
25:09
Speaker 5: of activity one hundred milliseconds long or so are probably
25:13
Speaker 5: too short to be called consciousness and certainly too short
25:16
Speaker 5: to write memories into any long term stores. So that's
25:20
Speaker 5: probably why we consider ourselves unconscious. During rem sleep, it's
25:25
Speaker 5: an entirely different state. The brain is super active, but
25:29
Speaker 5: that activity is all internally focused, so not focused on
25:34
Speaker 5: what the outside world is, but this inside reality. And
25:37
Speaker 5: that's probably the case of octopuses when they're flashing their camouflage.
25:43
Speaker 3: All right, So that's been a fascinating discussion of meditative
25:46
Speaker 3: mushrooms and napping black widows. When we get back, let's
25:49
Speaker 3: talk more about what's happening while we sleep and what
25:52
Speaker 3: it means to dream.
26:13
Speaker 2: All right, So I remember hearing that something like dolphins
26:17
Speaker 2: and birds sleep with half of their brain at a time,
26:20
Speaker 2: which sounds great because then you can be awake. But anyway,
26:24
Speaker 2: so my question is is that actually happening, and what
26:27
Speaker 2: does that look like and what are the like bonuses
26:30
Speaker 2: or drawbacks of that technique.
26:32
Speaker 5: Right, Well, if you're a dolphin, the bonuses that you
26:35
Speaker 5: can continue to breathe all night long while you're sleeping solid,
26:38
Speaker 5: so the half of your brain that's awake keeps the
26:41
Speaker 5: dolphins swimming at the surface and able to breathe all
26:44
Speaker 5: night long. They switch sides, so one half of the
26:48
Speaker 5: brain is sleeping for a while and then the other
26:50
Speaker 5: half of the brain sleeps for the rest of the
26:52
Speaker 5: time and just switch back and forth. Interestingly that the
26:56
Speaker 5: one neurochemical that seems to be changing when the consciousness
27:01
Speaker 5: side changes is a seat of coline, which is a
27:04
Speaker 5: neurotransmitter that goes all over the brain from one area
27:08
Speaker 5: of the brain stem and it's considered to be the
27:12
Speaker 5: searchlight of consciousness. So when you're thinking about walking upstairs,
27:17
Speaker 5: a seedal coline goes to the motor areas that are
27:21
Speaker 5: responsible for your feet walking upstairs, and when you're thinking
27:24
Speaker 5: about doing math, A set of coline goes to the
27:27
Speaker 5: math areas of your brain and away from the walking upstairs.
27:30
Speaker 5: If you're doing walking upstairs and doing math at the
27:33
Speaker 5: same time, of course, the seat of colon is in
27:34
Speaker 5: both places.
27:36
Speaker 2: And you're probably gonna fall fall anyway.
27:40
Speaker 5: So for dolphins fur seals that are out hunting for
27:45
Speaker 5: long periods of time and not accessing land for several weeks,
27:49
Speaker 5: they can also sleep un a hemispherically. Whales sleep, you know, hemispherically.
27:54
Speaker 5: And it's true, the side that's a sleep that doesn't
27:57
Speaker 5: have these heatal cooline has the big slow waves of unconsciousness,
28:01
Speaker 5: and the side that's awake looks like, you know, awake,
28:04
Speaker 5: and the eye is open on that side and all
28:06
Speaker 5: of that. So actually, so we control our brains. This
28:11
Speaker 5: is a little confusing. Our left side of our brain
28:14
Speaker 5: controls the right side of our bodies. So if the
28:15
Speaker 5: left side of the brain is awake, the right eye
28:18
Speaker 5: is open and watching the world around them, and vice versa.
28:22
Speaker 5: But so rim sleep rapid I'm of sleep. The one
28:26
Speaker 5: that I talked about where you have atonia seems to
28:30
Speaker 5: occur only very briefly in these animals that are uni
28:33
Speaker 5: hemispherically sleeping, So there's something different about rimsleep that really
28:38
Speaker 5: requires atonia, and maybe that's why it's only fifteen seconds
28:42
Speaker 5: long in the dolphin. And we haven't recorded the EEG
28:46
Speaker 5: the electrodecephalogram from dolphins or whales. It's a little more difficult.
28:51
Speaker 5: There's a lot of fat between, you know, to help
28:54
Speaker 5: them float between their skin and their brain, and no
28:58
Speaker 5: one has attempted it. But we do have another state
29:02
Speaker 5: of sleep in whales at least, and I don't know
29:04
Speaker 5: if it's been observed in dolphins. It would be interesting
29:07
Speaker 5: to see, but where they're not just floating at the
29:09
Speaker 5: surface and breathing and sleeping one hemisphere at a time,
29:12
Speaker 5: but they're actually below the surface instead of a horizontal position,
29:17
Speaker 5: in a vertical position either head down or head up.
29:21
Speaker 5: And usually what they do is they start with head
29:23
Speaker 5: down and then as the waves and tides move their
29:28
Speaker 5: atonic bodies, they eventually sort of go to the head
29:32
Speaker 5: up position. It's just they have a lot of fat
29:33
Speaker 5: in the head. That's the one that's the more neutral position,
29:37
Speaker 5: and they will do that for twenty minutes at a time,
29:39
Speaker 5: and that's where their body is completely also atonic, and
29:43
Speaker 5: then they swim to the surface and breathe and wake
29:46
Speaker 5: up and breathe again.
29:47
Speaker 3: But I'm not sure I follow the basic idea of
29:49
Speaker 3: why some animals do this and some don't. You said,
29:52
Speaker 3: you know, dolphins need to keep swimming and breathing, but
29:55
Speaker 3: we also need to keep breathing while we're asleep. Why
29:58
Speaker 3: don't we do this as well.
30:00
Speaker 5: Right, because well, we can breathe while we're asleep without
30:05
Speaker 5: having to swim, you know, we just you know. So, Also,
30:11
Speaker 5: dolphins in Wales breathe voluntarily, so it actually requires a
30:17
Speaker 5: voluntary sort of waking brain to breathe, whereas we breathe
30:21
Speaker 5: involuntarily when we go unconscious. If we were holding our
30:24
Speaker 5: breath before we went unconscious, we will start breathing again.
30:27
Speaker 3: And whales and dolphins have ancestors that were land animals, right,
30:30
Speaker 3: which probably slept more like us. How do you think
30:33
Speaker 3: that evolution happened? How do you evolve this kind of thing?
30:36
Speaker 5: Right? I don't know. It's incredible, you know the differences
30:41
Speaker 5: between species. It's really a beautiful and amazing thing.
30:45
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that seals when they go off on
30:47
Speaker 2: long foraging trips can do uni hemispheric sleep? Do they
30:51
Speaker 2: alternate between un a hemispheric sleep and then everything? Yeah,
30:55
Speaker 2: like the whole brain going, oh wow, they can do both.
30:57
Speaker 5: Yeah, when they're on what land they do by you know,
31:00
Speaker 5: whole brain sleep.
31:01
Speaker 1: Wow.
31:01
Speaker 5: Yeah. And there's an elephant seal that isn't found to
31:07
Speaker 5: do in a hemispheric sleep, either on land or at sea,
31:11
Speaker 5: And so that was used to argue that maybe sleep
31:15
Speaker 5: isn't necessary because they would be out there foraging for
31:17
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks and they're not sleeping for those
31:19
Speaker 5: couple of weeks, and then they go back to land
31:21
Speaker 5: and they don't have homeostatic rebound like they had been
31:25
Speaker 5: sleep deprived for a couple of weeks. So it was
31:27
Speaker 5: thought that maybe these are animals that don't need to sleep,
31:30
Speaker 5: and maybe sleep isn't necessary or at least not always
31:32
Speaker 5: homeistatically regulated. But a few years ago someone at EC
31:37
Speaker 5: Santa Cruz outfitted these elephant seals with head caps so
31:41
Speaker 5: they could record from their brains while they're out there swimming,
31:45
Speaker 5: and they found that in fact, these head caps also
31:48
Speaker 5: had GPS. They found that they actually do sleep while
31:51
Speaker 5: they're out there foraging, and what they do is they
31:54
Speaker 5: take a deep breath, you know, lots of deep breath.
31:57
Speaker 5: They swim down, down, down to a depth beneath where
32:02
Speaker 5: sharks and killer whales would predate them and where if
32:07
Speaker 5: they fall asleep, and when they fall asleep, they start
32:10
Speaker 5: sinking instead of floating back up. And so what they
32:14
Speaker 5: do is they go into slow wave sleep, and they
32:17
Speaker 5: have these beautiful slow waves and they're just kind of
32:20
Speaker 5: coasting down as they go into slow wave sleep. And
32:23
Speaker 5: then when they go into rem sleep with the atonia,
32:27
Speaker 5: whatever body position they're in, if it's less than perfectly straight,
32:31
Speaker 5: which always is going to be less than perfectly straight,
32:34
Speaker 5: they'll start spiraling. You know. The fin that's down will
32:37
Speaker 5: make them spiral. So they will spiral down and down
32:40
Speaker 5: and down until they hit the ocean floor, or until
32:44
Speaker 5: about seven or eight minutes have passed and they start
32:48
Speaker 5: the oxygen need starts giving, making them decide that they
32:52
Speaker 5: need to wake up. And so they wake up and
32:54
Speaker 5: start swimming up to the surface. And they even while
32:57
Speaker 5: they're swim into the surface, they can hold their breath
32:59
Speaker 5: for all long time. So even when they're swimming to
33:02
Speaker 5: the surface, they could have little naps and then swim
33:05
Speaker 5: some more and yeah, it's super cool. So really, sleep
33:11
Speaker 5: has been found in every animal, and in every animal
33:13
Speaker 5: we look closely enough, seems to have these two stages
33:16
Speaker 5: of sleep, so both stages, and both stages are independently regulated,
33:21
Speaker 5: so both stages seem to be important.
33:25
Speaker 2: So wait, when one hemisphere is asleep, I assume that
33:28
Speaker 2: they're less good at doing like, they can't have social
33:30
Speaker 2: interactions or anything like that. They're just watching out for
33:33
Speaker 2: predators and trying to breathe.
33:34
Speaker 1: Is that right?
33:34
Speaker 5: Yes? Okay, I think so, Oh yeah, we don't see
33:37
Speaker 5: social behaviors which would take the whole body. I suppose
33:41
Speaker 5: they could flat one fin waving hey guys, taking a nap.
33:46
Speaker 3: Okay, And it makes sense to me that predators might
33:49
Speaker 3: sleep like they eat very calorie rich food, they don't
33:52
Speaker 3: need to move around their conserving energy. But pray. It
33:54
Speaker 3: seems to be like a huge disadvantage to ever go
33:57
Speaker 3: to sleep.
33:57
Speaker 5: That's right.
33:59
Speaker 3: Does that mean that it must be fundamentally important that
34:02
Speaker 3: you can't escape at this no evolutionary path away from it.
34:05
Speaker 5: I think that's what it means. Yes, So I would
34:07
Speaker 5: love to see sleep in the pond organism that can
34:14
Speaker 5: survive in space and radiation tartar grade tartar grades. I
34:18
Speaker 5: would love somebody to do with sleep in tartar grade
34:21
Speaker 5: study because because they survive so well despite all of
34:26
Speaker 5: these different assaults on them, they can they have amazing
34:32
Speaker 5: abilities to rebuild broken double stranded breaks in their DNA,
34:38
Speaker 5: which seems to be also one of the functions for
34:40
Speaker 5: sleep is to rebuild a double standard breaks in our DNA.
34:46
Speaker 5: So another animal that seems to be really good at
34:50
Speaker 5: repairing their DNA is the naked mole rat, which are
34:53
Speaker 5: really ugly or cute whatever you think.
34:58
Speaker 3: It's a personality test. Actually what the you like the
35:00
Speaker 3: naked mole rat?
35:02
Speaker 5: It is. So there are some studies done in San
35:06
Speaker 5: Diego and then some more studies done in Russia that
35:10
Speaker 5: of sleep in the naked mole rat, and they seem
35:13
Speaker 5: to sleep so much more than the rest of us.
35:16
Speaker 5: And the naked mole rat. And like other rats which
35:20
Speaker 5: live about two years, the naked mole rat can live
35:23
Speaker 5: thirty five years and when they die it's usually from
35:26
Speaker 5: accidents or injuries or something like that. So why do
35:30
Speaker 5: they live so much longer? Well, they have this superior
35:32
Speaker 5: ability to repair their double stranded breaks in DNA and
35:37
Speaker 5: their rim sleep is about fifty percent of their sleep,
35:41
Speaker 5: which as for us, it's about twenty five percent on
35:44
Speaker 5: a good day. For rats and mice it's more like
35:48
Speaker 5: twelve fifteen percent, but with naked mole rats it's fifty percent.
35:53
Speaker 5: And that's as much RAM sleep as we get as babies.
35:57
Speaker 5: So when we are, you know, learning so much from
36:00
Speaker 5: our environment. And actually I want to give you another factoid,
36:05
Speaker 5: which is learning requires double stranded breaks in our DNA,
36:09
Speaker 5: So every time we learn, we're breaking our DNA in
36:12
Speaker 5: order to do that. So, yes, I know why, I've
36:16
Speaker 5: never heard that before. Yeah, I don't know why. I
36:19
Speaker 5: don't know why. But sleep helps repair repair that and
36:25
Speaker 5: so so what are naked mole rats doing there? Babies
36:28
Speaker 5: are learning, of course a ton, right and there they
36:32
Speaker 5: have about fifty percent when they're born. So why are
36:35
Speaker 5: naked mole rats having so much rem all through their lives?
36:40
Speaker 5: Are they learning a lot? And there's also seem to
36:42
Speaker 5: be any evidence that they're so much smarter than anybody else.
36:46
Speaker 3: They're writing the great American novel.
36:47
Speaker 5: Of course, baby writing the American novel, but the only
36:52
Speaker 5: they can read.
36:53
Speaker 3: So you have a lot of questions about sleep and
36:55
Speaker 3: all these creatures any humans. Tell us a little bit
36:58
Speaker 3: about how we've learned these things, like experiments have you done?
37:02
Speaker 3: How do we know these things? Yeah, other than torturing jellyfish?
37:05
Speaker 5: Right, watching, right, watching? Just anybody can be a scientist,
37:12
Speaker 5: as you know, you just need to. You need to
37:15
Speaker 5: observe the world around you, ask questions and try and
37:19
Speaker 5: answer them by perturbing that that universe and seeing what happens.
37:24
Speaker 5: So we knowie, sleep is homiostatically regulated, even in ourselves
37:28
Speaker 5: because when we get less of it one night, we
37:30
Speaker 5: are sleepier the next day our drive to sleep is higher.
37:33
Speaker 5: But yes, there have been some key experiments throughout history.
37:37
Speaker 5: For example, the discovery of rapid I movement sleep was
37:40
Speaker 5: probably not the discovery of rapid I sleep at Rapit
37:43
Speaker 5: the first report of rappidive I haven't sleep that other
37:46
Speaker 5: people could read, and that was an observation made by
37:51
Speaker 5: at the University of Chicago by a research scientist who
37:56
Speaker 5: is actually the trainee of another research who was studying sleep. Yes,
38:02
Speaker 5: had EEG electrodes on people's brains, and this trainee said, hey,
38:10
Speaker 5: there seems to be this second state where eyes are
38:12
Speaker 5: moving and there's a bit of twitching and respiration changes,
38:17
Speaker 5: and the principal investigator the PI didn't believe it, you know, like, yeah,
38:22
Speaker 5: it's just a little bit of wakefulness or something else.
38:24
Speaker 5: Sleep is just one thing, and it's a we thought
38:27
Speaker 5: at that time it was a disconnect from the world
38:30
Speaker 5: and it was saving energy, which doesn't appear to be
38:33
Speaker 5: very true. Actually. So this trainee hooked up the sun
38:39
Speaker 5: of the PI and all night long. And this was
38:43
Speaker 5: a young kid, I think ten years old or younger,
38:47
Speaker 5: who has more rem sleep and is very thoroughly asleep.
38:51
Speaker 5: Kids for it's hard to disturb them. It's hard to
38:53
Speaker 5: wake them up out of sleep. Yeah, And so showed
38:59
Speaker 5: the record to the PA, this is your son. Look
39:01
Speaker 5: at these states, and the p I said, wait a minute,
39:04
Speaker 5: and Edison's sleep another night and watched them and you know,
39:08
Speaker 5: tried to poke them awake during their rem sleep. When
39:11
Speaker 5: he thought that one must have been a wakefulness, the
39:15
Speaker 5: sun was quite quite heavily asleep, and realized that, okay,
39:20
Speaker 5: there may be you know, maybe there's something to this,
39:22
Speaker 5: maybe there's a second state of sleep. So it's kind
39:25
Speaker 5: of you know, observations like this, someone saying, hey, this
39:28
Speaker 5: is weird. This doesn't follow my hypothesis is what I
39:31
Speaker 5: thought would happen, you know, and then pursuing that thing
39:35
Speaker 5: that's weird to its end to see what the answers
39:39
Speaker 5: are for humans.
39:40
Speaker 3: You're obviously limited in the experiments you can do. I
39:43
Speaker 3: want to ask you a weird question. Imagine that we're
39:46
Speaker 3: not limited.
39:47
Speaker 1: I think that's the only kind of question you asked me.
39:49
Speaker 3: I know this one's going to feel a little extra weird.
39:53
Speaker 3: Imagine you weren't limited by any ethical concerns and you
39:56
Speaker 3: only had scientific questions. What experiments would you do to
40:00
Speaker 3: learn more about sleep? You know, slicing brains open, torturing people,
40:04
Speaker 3: sticking things inside them. I don't know. What would you
40:06
Speaker 3: do just from a scientific point of view to learn
40:08
Speaker 3: about sleep? What experiments do you wish you could do?
40:11
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, if it weren't for the dangers involved,
40:16
Speaker 5: I would put electrodes in my own brain, a ton
40:18
Speaker 5: of them. I would put a thousand of them in
40:20
Speaker 5: my own brain. Because one of the things that we
40:23
Speaker 5: have discovered from people with electrodes in their brain, and
40:27
Speaker 5: they put electrodes in their brain because they want to
40:29
Speaker 5: find out where epilepsy is starting. So that they can
40:32
Speaker 5: go in and just take out that little section of
40:34
Speaker 5: brain which is generating epilepsy all over the brain. So
40:40
Speaker 5: when we have looked at twelve of those people who
40:43
Speaker 5: had electrodes already implanted in their brain, and we find that,
40:47
Speaker 5: in fact, sleep isn't a whole brain phenomenon one third
40:51
Speaker 5: of the time. For example, your hippocampus, which is involved
40:54
Speaker 5: in recording memories in the first place and then consolidating
40:58
Speaker 5: those memories to other parts of the brain. Here hip
41:00
Speaker 5: campus can be an entirely different sleep state than the
41:03
Speaker 5: cortex is, and it's about a third of the night
41:05
Speaker 5: that it's in an entirely different state. So, for example,
41:08
Speaker 5: you hip the campus can go into rapid eye movement
41:10
Speaker 5: sleep faster and better and longer than the cortext does.
41:15
Speaker 5: It can go to sleep actually the first place, sooner
41:19
Speaker 5: than the rest of the cortext does. So you could
41:21
Speaker 5: be in bed reading a book and about two minutes
41:24
Speaker 5: on average before you're actually fall asleep and the book
41:28
Speaker 5: hits your face or whatever it is, your hippa campus
41:32
Speaker 5: is already asleep. It's not going to remember those that
41:35
Speaker 5: last page that you read. You can also tell when
41:38
Speaker 5: you're falling asleep, you have to reread the same patches
41:41
Speaker 5: again and again. What was that? I don't know, you know, ugh,
41:44
Speaker 5: what was that? And that's called sleep onset amnesia. And
41:49
Speaker 5: we found in people that your hipp a campus can
41:52
Speaker 5: be asleep for twenty whole minutes before the rest of
41:55
Speaker 5: your rain is asleep. So don't have a critical conversation
41:59
Speaker 5: with your bed partner while they're trying to fall asleep,
42:01
Speaker 5: because it's possible they will not remember the conversation the
42:04
Speaker 5: next day at all.
42:05
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you have just inserted yourself in my marriage.
42:11
Speaker 3: I have a no important conversation after ten pm rule.
42:14
Speaker 3: There you go, which is controversial in my marriage.
42:18
Speaker 1: It seems reasonable.
42:19
Speaker 2: I'm almost always asleep by ten pm, so ZECH would
42:23
Speaker 2: not make much progress anyway.
42:24
Speaker 3: But now I have a scientific foundation for winning.
42:28
Speaker 5: You do you do?
42:29
Speaker 3: Thank you, Gina?
42:29
Speaker 4: Yes?
42:30
Speaker 1: And well science.
42:31
Speaker 5: Yes.
42:32
Speaker 2: All right, Let's hope we help some other marriages as well.
42:35
Speaker 2: And when we come back, we will talk about dreams. Okay,
42:58
Speaker 2: we're back and we are finally going to answer are
43:00
Speaker 2: our listeners questions about dreams?
43:02
Speaker 1: So Gin know, when do we dream? And why do
43:06
Speaker 1: we dream? Tell us about dreams?
43:08
Speaker 5: It's a great question, and we can only study dreams
43:11
Speaker 5: in people because we can only ask people about their dreams.
43:14
Speaker 5: It's a hard one because you can only ask people
43:17
Speaker 5: about their dreams when they're awake, so it's kind of
43:20
Speaker 5: a retrospective study rather than a live study. However, we
43:27
Speaker 5: do dream most when we're in rapid I'm at sleep,
43:30
Speaker 5: when our bodies are actively inhibited from acting out those dreams.
43:35
Speaker 5: So that's a good thing.
43:36
Speaker 3: But how do you know that if you can only
43:37
Speaker 3: ask people about their dreams later.
43:39
Speaker 5: Yeah, you just wake them up out of different stages
43:41
Speaker 5: of sleep, and when you wake them up out of
43:43
Speaker 5: round sleep, they're most likely to report having had a dream,
43:46
Speaker 5: and the dream is most likely to be the most
43:49
Speaker 5: bizarre and lengthy. So if you wake them up out
43:52
Speaker 5: of stage two sleep, which is not the deep slow
43:55
Speaker 5: wave unconscious state, but rather the first state you go
43:59
Speaker 5: into when you're sleep, and then the state that you
44:02
Speaker 5: go into right before rem sleep, so it's called a
44:04
Speaker 5: transition to rem there are more dreams, but they are
44:09
Speaker 5: usually very very brief, also bizarre, but they're not long stories.
44:14
Speaker 5: Usually they're just short, little snippets. So when we wake
44:19
Speaker 5: people up out of deep slowly sleep, which is hard
44:21
Speaker 5: to do because there's a lot of sleep inertia. And
44:24
Speaker 5: you ask someone what they were dreaming, they'll say, I
44:26
Speaker 5: have no idea, I wasn't dreaming anything. Let me go
44:28
Speaker 5: back to sleep, you know, grunt and turnover. Right. It
44:34
Speaker 5: doesn't mean that definitively people aren't dreaming as slowly sleep.
44:38
Speaker 5: It might just be that they are not remembering it
44:40
Speaker 5: when we wake them up.
44:41
Speaker 3: But do you have any way to know that their reactions,
44:44
Speaker 3: or their stories, or their retelling of their dreams correlated
44:47
Speaker 3: at all to their real dreams.
44:48
Speaker 5: Yeah, so there is some evidence, but it's controversial, or
44:53
Speaker 5: it has been controversial, because there was this idea of
44:56
Speaker 5: activation synthesis, so that in fact, you just have little
45:01
Speaker 5: blips of randomness when you're an in ram sleep and
45:04
Speaker 5: then when you're awake. Because we don't like little blips
45:06
Speaker 5: of randomness, we sew them into a story. And that
45:10
Speaker 5: dream isn't actually a story, but we've sewn them into
45:12
Speaker 5: a story. And there's some a little bit of evidence
45:15
Speaker 5: for that. For example, if you have an alarm waking
45:18
Speaker 5: you up, you will have a dream that can incorporate
45:23
Speaker 5: that alarm. Not everybody does, but you can have a
45:26
Speaker 5: dream that incorporates that alarm that starts before the alarm
45:30
Speaker 5: started ringing. Like, for example, in your dream, your alarm
45:32
Speaker 5: is a ticking bomb and you have to diffuse it.
45:37
Speaker 5: But in your dream, you're coming up up on the
45:40
Speaker 5: bomb and then you start hearing the ticking And so
45:44
Speaker 5: is it that you've retroactively dreamt about the silence before
45:48
Speaker 5: the alarm starts ringing in order to make this a
45:52
Speaker 5: story or is it that you know We don't know
45:56
Speaker 5: the answer to that. But interestingly, because we can put
45:59
Speaker 5: electrodes in the brains of rats, actually I want to
46:03
Speaker 5: tell you that it doesn't hurt to have an electrode
46:05
Speaker 5: in your brain. With these people with electrodes in their
46:09
Speaker 5: brain for epilepsy will not report any having any pain.
46:12
Speaker 5: Lead actually, strangely, don't have sensory structures in our brain
46:17
Speaker 5: to sense what's there. So rats with electrodes in the
46:22
Speaker 5: brain will not know that they've got electrodes in their brain,
46:25
Speaker 5: and they will sleep wonderfully. They will sleep beautifully, and
46:29
Speaker 5: you can see because you can control what happens to
46:32
Speaker 5: a rat during the days. You know, rats exploring a
46:35
Speaker 5: maze during the day and they're finding food in your maize.
46:38
Speaker 5: They will re dream about that maze. They will reactivate
46:41
Speaker 5: the same neurons that are active in a particular order
46:45
Speaker 5: during the day will reactivate in that order during their
46:50
Speaker 5: dream state of rapid eye movements sleep. And you'd say,
46:54
Speaker 5: why would they dream about the same thing that they
46:56
Speaker 5: were doing during the day. Well, they have a pretty
46:57
Speaker 5: boring life except for that exciting running time, and so
47:01
Speaker 5: they're much more likely to activate that particular dream. But
47:07
Speaker 5: there are a lot of times in rem sleep where
47:09
Speaker 5: they're not activating that daze. And so what are they
47:11
Speaker 5: dreaming about? We don't know. We would have to record
47:14
Speaker 5: every minute of their lives in order to see what
47:16
Speaker 5: they're reactivating and what they're dreaming about. But we do
47:19
Speaker 5: know that they do reactivate the maze, and interestingly, they
47:22
Speaker 5: can reactivate the maze in the same order in which
47:25
Speaker 5: they ran at during the day. But they can also
47:27
Speaker 5: do bizarre things that they can't do during the day,
47:29
Speaker 5: like leap from one side to the maze to the next,
47:32
Speaker 5: like we can in our dreams. We can change scenes, right,
47:35
Speaker 5: we can. You know, suddenly we're in a boat, you know,
47:38
Speaker 5: versus before we were in a house. So and rats
47:42
Speaker 5: can do the same thing. So we can't ask them
47:44
Speaker 5: about their dreams, but we can see their brain activity
47:47
Speaker 5: reactivating this reality that they were in the day before. Also,
47:52
Speaker 5: we have this tiny little brainstem area that inhibits our
47:56
Speaker 5: muscles when we're dreaming so that we don't act them out.
48:00
Speaker 5: When that tiny area of the brain stem degenerates, we
48:03
Speaker 5: act out our dreams. That's called RAM behavior disorder, and
48:06
Speaker 5: people with that have to actually tie themselves down while
48:09
Speaker 5: they sleep so they don't you know, hurt themselves because
48:12
Speaker 5: you're completely insensitive to the world around you. You are
48:15
Speaker 5: totally in your dream world and you could you know,
48:19
Speaker 5: fall downstairs, or walk through a plate growth glass window,
48:22
Speaker 5: or beat your bed partner because you're dreaming about, you know,
48:26
Speaker 5: an alligator over the side of your canoe. So you
48:29
Speaker 5: can also lesion that tiny little area of the brain
48:31
Speaker 5: stem in a rat and see the rat act out
48:35
Speaker 5: their dreams as well. So they will be you know,
48:38
Speaker 5: cowering as though they're dreaming they're being predated upon there's
48:43
Speaker 5: somebody spraying on them. They can fight, they can walk around,
48:47
Speaker 5: they can you know, phantom eat if it's a I've
48:52
Speaker 5: seen the cats do it. They can you know, swat
48:55
Speaker 5: at imaginary butterflies and also pounce on the imaginary prey.
49:02
Speaker 5: So yeah, this is some evidence that all animals seem
49:06
Speaker 5: to dream, including cephalopods which have this flashing of their
49:11
Speaker 5: camouflage while they're in that state.
49:13
Speaker 2: So we think that's a dream where their body is
49:18
Speaker 2: physically responding as opposed to that's just okay, huh.
49:22
Speaker 5: Yeah. So what is the origin of dreams? We don't know.
49:26
Speaker 5: But there is another part of the brain stem that
49:29
Speaker 5: only is active during rem sleep, so during this dream state,
49:34
Speaker 5: and it's filled with big excitatory neurons that project all
49:39
Speaker 5: over the brain, and it starts firing when we are
49:44
Speaker 5: in that end to stage of sleep, which is the
49:46
Speaker 5: state when if you wake someone up, they'll report little
49:49
Speaker 5: short dreams but not long ones, and then it fires
49:52
Speaker 5: like crazy when we're in ramsleep, and it might be
49:56
Speaker 5: the origin of the internal origin of dreams. It's right
50:00
Speaker 5: beneath an area of the brain brainstem called the locus
50:03
Speaker 5: th realist, which gets all sensory information from the outside world,
50:07
Speaker 5: and that is actively inhibited when we are in remsleep.
50:10
Speaker 5: But just beneath that is this area that comes on
50:15
Speaker 5: and comes alive when we're in dream state. So it
50:18
Speaker 5: might be the way we feel things and hear things
50:22
Speaker 5: and start speaking and all of that. Because this suberlist
50:25
Speaker 5: area it's called subserulists projects all over our cortex and
50:31
Speaker 5: we don't know because we haven't been able to control
50:35
Speaker 5: which areas are active and which are not active in
50:37
Speaker 5: the subscuos. To try and control and formulate a dream,
50:40
Speaker 5: like an inception of a dream, we can't do that yet,
50:44
Speaker 5: but maybe someday we will be able to do that.
50:48
Speaker 1: Wow.
50:49
Speaker 2: So there are a lot of people who are interested
50:51
Speaker 2: in interpreting dreams and trying to decide like what they mean,
50:54
Speaker 2: is there any hidden meanings in dreams or is it
50:58
Speaker 2: what's the science there?
51:01
Speaker 5: Again, that's really difficult because again you can only study
51:04
Speaker 5: in waking people. But there is a reactivation of memories.
51:10
Speaker 5: If you deprive someone a person of rem sleep, you
51:14
Speaker 5: will get a much more pedantic mindset. You can't deprive
51:19
Speaker 5: the people of remsleep for very long. That's again independently
51:22
Speaker 5: regulated and if given any nap opportunity. Normally, rem sleep
51:26
Speaker 5: comes after about ninety minutes or eighty minutes of sleep.
51:29
Speaker 5: It's it follows slow wave sleep because your brain needs
51:32
Speaker 5: to be in the perfect state temperature wise, et cetera,
51:35
Speaker 5: in order to go into this dream state of sleep.
51:38
Speaker 5: But if you deprive someone of particularly that dream state
51:40
Speaker 5: of sleep, they will go into rem sleep earlier and
51:43
Speaker 5: earlier because and get more, They'll get more and more
51:45
Speaker 5: of it, and then in fact, just at sleep on
51:48
Speaker 5: set they can go into rem sleep. There does seem
51:51
Speaker 5: to be a lot of anecdotal evidence that that dreams
51:56
Speaker 5: do relate to things that we're experiencing, and for some
52:00
Speaker 5: people more than others. A lot of people don't remember
52:03
Speaker 5: their dreams at all, so they're not the ones to
52:05
Speaker 5: study for this, but those who can remember their dreams
52:09
Speaker 5: sometimes it. In fact, dreams do seem to relate to
52:13
Speaker 5: the things that you've learned during the day or the
52:15
Speaker 5: week before, the month before, and the bizarreness of dreams
52:20
Speaker 5: seems to allow us to put things together. So we
52:22
Speaker 5: wake up with an aha moment, not always, but sometimes
52:27
Speaker 5: with an Aha moment where we've put things together that
52:29
Speaker 5: we couldn't you know, our conscious brain just couldn't let
52:32
Speaker 5: us put together. So the study of dreams and creativity
52:37
Speaker 5: does show that people, for example, doing a task that
52:42
Speaker 5: requires a creative insight in order to do it quickly.
52:47
Speaker 5: About a third of the people doing this task get
52:49
Speaker 5: the creative insight while they're awake and doing the task
52:52
Speaker 5: in the first place. Two thirds of people don't see
52:55
Speaker 5: the hidden rule that allows them to take the shortcut,
52:58
Speaker 5: and of those, half of them through sleep wake up
53:02
Speaker 5: and then can do the creative leap, and then a
53:06
Speaker 5: one third seem to never get it so unfortunately, and
53:11
Speaker 5: those that make that creative leap seem to have a
53:14
Speaker 5: lot more activity in this area of the brain that
53:18
Speaker 5: causes sleep spindles, which is related to these subsrulist area
53:23
Speaker 5: which causes these this activation, this random activation during dreams.
53:28
Speaker 3: Are you saying that people have this idea solve a
53:30
Speaker 3: problem while they're asleep, and then they wake up and
53:32
Speaker 3: they have the solution, or that the sleep is somehow
53:35
Speaker 3: prepared their brain to be able to solve this problem.
53:38
Speaker 5: It seems like they wake up with the solution so
53:41
Speaker 5: that the first time that they're doing it, you know
53:44
Speaker 5: they they've got it.
53:45
Speaker 3: So it is possible to dream up the great American novel.
53:48
Speaker 5: Yes, I think so, all right. There's one famous songwriter
53:52
Speaker 5: who said that when he wakes up. If he doesn't
53:56
Speaker 5: write down the song that he was dreaming about, God
53:59
Speaker 5: will give it to Bob Dylan.
54:04
Speaker 1: That's excellent.
54:06
Speaker 3: So what do we know about the cultural dependence of
54:09
Speaker 3: sleep and dreams? Do people sleep the same way around
54:11
Speaker 3: the world, Do they dream the same way? Do we
54:13
Speaker 3: have the same relationship with dreams around the world.
54:16
Speaker 5: There are cultures that have strong beliefs that these insights
54:20
Speaker 5: that come through dreams come from ancestors. That are you
54:25
Speaker 5: go to visit your ancestors and your dreams and they
54:27
Speaker 5: give you wisdom. Again, there's no scientific evidence, but there are,
54:34
Speaker 5: you know, cultural norms surrounding dreams that are different in
54:37
Speaker 5: different cultures. There's also cultural norms surrounding sleep in general
54:41
Speaker 5: that differ between different cultures. Some cultures don't value sleep
54:45
Speaker 5: at all. It's for the lazy, they believe, and there's
54:50
Speaker 5: nothing good happening except just turning off your brain and resting,
54:53
Speaker 5: and if you're tough, you can do without it. Other
54:57
Speaker 5: cultures have a much more an open or receptive view
55:03
Speaker 5: of sleep, and sleep is something they welcome each night
55:07
Speaker 5: and you with open arms, because that's a time when
55:12
Speaker 5: you know, lots of things happened, like consulting with your
55:14
Speaker 5: ancestors or whatever it is. There's a really cool study
55:19
Speaker 5: in South America by a researcher who's actually at University
55:24
Speaker 5: of Washington in Seattle. He put sleep trackers on people
55:30
Speaker 5: in a village without any electricity in South America in
55:33
Speaker 5: the Amazon, and another set of sleep trackers on people
55:37
Speaker 5: with bare minimum electricity like a single light bulb and
55:41
Speaker 5: a ceiling, and then on people living in the city.
55:44
Speaker 5: And he found that all of these cultures, no matter
55:48
Speaker 5: where they were living, sleep less during the full moon
55:52
Speaker 5: or the new moon. So he was tracking them for
55:55
Speaker 5: a full month and there's a statistical significant difference where
56:00
Speaker 5: people sleep less either the full moon or the new moon.
56:03
Speaker 5: And so you think it's not light because the new
56:06
Speaker 5: moon there's no you know, there's no moon and the
56:08
Speaker 5: only light you see the stars when you're out in
56:11
Speaker 5: the Amazon, if that at all, So it can't be
56:15
Speaker 5: light disturbance. And in fact the people in the city
56:18
Speaker 5: also these are college students, they typically spend very little
56:24
Speaker 5: time looking at the moon or thinking about the moon,
56:26
Speaker 5: so's it seems to be the only explanation that they
56:31
Speaker 5: could come up with in his paper is that the
56:35
Speaker 5: gravitational pull is stronger on the Earth during both a
56:40
Speaker 5: new moon and a full moon, and so maybe there's
56:43
Speaker 5: something have to do with gravity and sleepiness.
56:46
Speaker 3: Maybe that explains why we sleep worse at high altitudes.
56:49
Speaker 3: I always thought that was the oxygen.
56:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, the oxygen definitely does disturb a sleep. Yeah, yeah,
56:55
Speaker 5: I don't know what.
56:56
Speaker 3: About people who have different sensations of the world. Dreams
57:00
Speaker 3: play a different role in folks who have always been blind, Yeah,
57:04
Speaker 3: always been deaf. Can people see in their dreams if
57:06
Speaker 3: they're blind.
57:07
Speaker 5: No, they do if they're not blind from birth, but
57:11
Speaker 5: if they're blind from birth, so no, it's different sensations
57:14
Speaker 5: that are that are activated in dreams.
57:17
Speaker 1: Daniel, do you want to ask your alien question?
57:19
Speaker 5: Oh?
57:19
Speaker 3: No, right, So we've asked you about whether sleep is
57:22
Speaker 3: something that's common across Earth creatures. How common do you
57:25
Speaker 3: think it is across the universe? When aliens come and visit,
57:28
Speaker 3: are they going to need to take naps in between
57:30
Speaker 3: our conversations or do you think this is something that
57:33
Speaker 3: happens only on Earth?
57:35
Speaker 5: Well, it does happen on Earth. But whether or aliens
57:39
Speaker 5: sleep is a good question depends on what Whether aliens
57:43
Speaker 5: need to repair dumble stranded DNA. Do they have double
57:46
Speaker 5: stranded DNA. It depends on whether their energy stores works
57:51
Speaker 5: the same way. That's a great question because there are
57:54
Speaker 5: people who would like to do away with sleep altogether.
57:57
Speaker 5: They think the foo ones who think it's a waste
57:59
Speaker 5: of time, or who would like sleepiness to not affect
58:03
Speaker 5: people's performance, for example. But we have not found anything
58:07
Speaker 5: on Earth at least that can replace sleep itself, and
58:11
Speaker 5: in fact, without sleep, eventually we die, and that eventually
58:15
Speaker 5: is about as long as we take to die without
58:18
Speaker 5: any food, So it's as essential as food for us.
58:22
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's quite possible. There are aliens who don't
58:26
Speaker 5: need sleep work differently.
58:30
Speaker 3: Well, when the aliens do arrive, I think I hope
58:32
Speaker 3: that they're invertebrates so that you can do all sorts
58:34
Speaker 3: of terrible experiments on them. Yeah, I understand.
58:37
Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, no.
58:39
Speaker 2: I think they're coming up with new rules for working
58:41
Speaker 2: on like octopus as well, because oh yeah, they're particularly intelligent.
58:46
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's more complicated.
58:48
Speaker 5: There are already rules for activists. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
58:52
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you so much for chatting with
58:54
Speaker 2: us about sleep and dreams. This has been fascinating and
58:57
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and hear if our listener had questions answered.
59:01
Speaker 4: Thanks for doing your podcast on this. It was really interesting,
59:04
Speaker 4: Doctor Poe was really interesting. I've never knew that people
59:09
Speaker 4: believe they talk to their ancestors in their dreams. I
59:12
Speaker 4: found that fascinating. Thanks for everything you do and I'll
59:15
Speaker 4: look forward to hearing all your future podcasts. Byebye.
59:25
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