Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Pedro Garcia: For Those Who Doubt, Is It Because Of Jesus

Transcript

Pedro Garcia: For Those Who Doubt, Is It Because Of Jesus · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:02
  Welcome to Worldview Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events, defending biblical Christianity. No topic, off limits. And now, here's your host, David Fiorazzo.
• 0:20
  Welcome, family and friends in Christ. We appreciate you guys tuning in and sharing another podcast. I love it. It's just so great we get to cover all kinds of topics. I've got a former atheist that we're talking with about his journey today, and his name is Pedro Garcia, and I want to share his website.
• 0:39
  Is it because of Jesus dot com? Is it because of Jesus dot com? And a brand new book we're going to be talking about. It's called For Those Who Doubt. And I love it. Conversations for Those Deconstructing Their Faith. And so a lot of good information in here. I can't wait to dive into it with Pedro Garcia. Welcome, brother. Good to have you on the podcast.
• 1:05
  Thank you so much, David. Thank you. Yeah, so you have a little accent still because you moved here from Spain, from what I understand, and you're in Tennessee. But tell us about you actually played the saxophone and you were a finalist on Spain's Got Talent. And tell us about that journey. And I think a lot of our viewers would want to know about that.
• 1:31
  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I was talking to a friend this morning and I told him 14 years ago I was cursing God in Spain. And two weeks ago I became ordained as a pastor in my church. Wow. Like, what else can I say? Like, there's nothing else to say about that.
• 1:49
  Cursing God in Spain, being ordained as a pastor. Those are interesting bookends, and now the journey from the pastor continues as a pastor continues. So congratulations. I'm glad you're on the right side now, Pedro.
• 2:05
  Yeah, no, it was interesting. I grew up in Spain and I started playing the saxophone when I was very young. I went to the conservatory there for many years. And yeah, I started composing my own music. And one day I just saw the TV show ad and I said, you know what? I kind of want to try something different. Let me just go. And to be honest with you, the first time that I was there for the castings, everyone was laughing really hard at me because of what I was doing.
• 2:34
  But I kept serious because I was I really intentionally went to do what I did. But then they gave me another opportunity and then I got to the finals of the show. And that was what allowed me to travel, you know, all around the world teaching and performing. And that's when they invited me to be a guest professor at an university here in Nashville. And that's how I connected to the city and then Christians. And that's where the story began a little bit.
• 3:01
  Well, you've got an amazing journey from atheism to now a vibrant faith in Jesus. So a lot of people, I'm sure, want to know, how did that happen? How did the Lord Jesus get a hold of you when you were going down a completely different path?
• 3:18
  Well, you know, long journey, but I would say as a summary, I started meeting Christians here. Even though I studied music, my passion has always been philosophy and the big questions in life. So when I was having conversations with Christians, they showed me a way of being first, an innocence, a way to take care of others that really helped.
• 3:42
  like shattered a little bit the way I, the things I was bringing inside of me. And then, of course, I was invited to read the Bible. And when I first read the Sermon of the Mount, David, I saw three things. The first thing was when I finished it, I thought, you know, I'd like the world to be like this.
• 4:02
  I really would love for it to be like that. Then I also realized, wow, and Jesus is actually claiming to be God. What an interesting thing, because if God were to exist, he would say stuff like that. And then the other thing, I was always very scared of death. And Jesus always also said that he put an end to it, and he did it at the resurrection. So the Sermon on the Mount was very impactful in my life.
• 4:31
  And after that, just I fell in love with Jesus. Wow. There's a lot in there. And isn't it nice to be liberated from that fear of death? Death no longer has a sting. If you're a believer in Christ, if you're in the family of God, we look forward to that day. We don't have to be afraid of it. And I think also, Pedro, maybe you can speak to this, and then we'll dive into your book.
• 4:53
  But I think it also that gives us compassion for others around us who to them, if they don't know Christ and are not saved, all they have is this life. And so they're they're living with that perspective, with that worldview, like this is all there is. So, of course, they're afraid of death. So we have the best news in the world to share with them. Could you speak to that before we move on?
• 5:18
  Yeah, absolutely. The one thing I would say, David, is we can talk about it coming out from the book, but I just don't see, I see people as potential Christians.
• 5:31
  I just don't see, you know, if I go and see, oh, you're an atheist and agnostics. Okay, you are a beautiful creation that is far from God. And you can be exactly what I have become because of Jesus and through spirit. Spirit, I haven't done anything. So seeing people as potential Christians, he saw me like that when I was cursing him, walking down the streets of Spain. I want to bring that same grace to people when I have conversations with them.
• 6:01
  That's awesome. Great perspective, brother. So I've got a little bit of information before we dive into the book. It's a growing number of Americans now identify as atheist or agnostic. You were an atheist for years and years, much of your life. And those with no religious affiliation, we know now they're called nuns, meaning they don't have any. 31% of
• 6:26
  of Americans. That's pretty concerning, understanding how we were founded as a nation, understanding the massive Christian influence we...
• 6:37
  We used to have, and now the church, I know, as you know, being a relatively new American, the church in America has some issues with the concepts of salt and light, actually influencing our world, our culture for Christ, being ambassadors, outspoken ambassadors, just proudly representing Jesus and the good news. And we have a lot of churches that are hiding their light.
• 7:03
  But here we are now. You started a multi-year journey when you were an atheist to prove Christianity is nothing more than a crutch for the ignorant. Tell us about that, because that was part of your maybe meeting Christians, maybe some debates along the way. Tell us part of that, Pedro.
• 7:26
  Well, yeah, I mean, my experience in Spain with Catholicism, for example, and of course, I'm talking, David, about my experience with it. I cannot talk about Catholicism as a whole. That's a different conversation for another time. My experience of Catholicism was really bad. So my questions were not welcomed and I just didn't have opportunities to really explore.
• 7:51
  And then something happens. Long story short, a priest asked me and my father to lie about something. And we actually had to do it because it was very strange. But when I saw a priest asking me to lie about something horrible that happened, I didn't have the mental capacity to distinguish between people who claim to follow Jesus and Jesus himself.
• 8:19
  So I put both of them together and there was some resentment. And I was 12 years old. I don't know how to process stuff myself. So what you do is that these resentments start building. And what happens is that you start because you don't know how to process the pain in your heart. What many non-believers do
• 8:40
  is that they start building intellectual walls about the hearts that are broken. And that is something that I call intellectual shielding. So there are people in the United States that know the Bible probably better than you and I, but they read it in order to disprove it continually. Yeah.
• 8:58
  And when you see the pattern, David, you realize, okay, I see that you know a lot, but what is it that makes you, encourages you every morning to wake up and find new arguments to disprove something that you claim is false at this point? There's a behavioral pattern behind all of that. And usually it's a person that is broken. Something happened to this person.
• 9:22
  And that is not that doesn't make them be less of a person or anything, but it's just talking to the person behind the comments. So that was kind of a journey for me when I met some Christians here. And I just realized, you know, this is again, this is everywhere. They they're claiming things that they don't exist and they base their lives on things that cannot be proven.
• 9:44
  But yeah, to be honest with you, since I like philosophy, I read a little bit, you know, the history of Western philosophy. And even the philosophers that were the most atheistic, they would actually engage with the question with respect. Like this is something to talk about. And yeah, that journey, I just realized, OK, so believe in God, lowercase g, is actually a probably might be a rational thing to do.
• 10:14
  And then the other thing that happened to me was that I just thought that to prove that you are a competent person, it all has to be intellectual. What an incredible life from the enemy. Yes. What an incredible life from the enemy. Then you read scripture and you have our powerful and amazing, graceful God using people that, like the humblest of all, decently.
• 10:42
  changing the world and you realize, well, Lord, I'm very sorry. And then, of course, I realized that I was broken for many, many reasons. And you get to the point that, hey, self-help books are very good, but they're very bad at resurrection. And...
• 10:59
  That's when everything turned to me. Philosophy, science, a little bit of sociology, how Christianity expanded, the facts that you and I, David, are talking about Jesus 2,000 years after a random person in first century Palestine was just walking around saying these things and look at what happened to the world.
• 11:20
  And 2000 years later, it's just everything about it. It's unbelievable. But of course, the cross is something that you can contemplate. But when you really understand with your heart what it is, that changes everything.
• 11:37
  Yeah, I think God uses both faith and intellect. And absolutely, absolutely. And I want to ask you about the subtitle of your book and explain something, because it says conversations for those deconstructing their faith. So explain to us what it means to deconstruct. Obviously, that's a negative term. It means, what is it, breaking down? Explain why you use that in the subtitle.
• 12:06
  So if you allow me, David, real quick, the title, For Those Who Doubt, Is It Because of Jesus? The reason why I wrote the book is because I've had conversations with atheists and non-believers for more than 10 years. And in my case, I've never met one person that left Christianity because of Jesus.
• 12:27
  Then I learned that that is the question. That's why I use my social media handle and everything. Is it because of Jesus? David, the answer is usually no. Can you believe that? Could you imagine saying to someone, I doubt this, that, I don't believe anymore. You ask them, is it because of Jesus?
• 12:44
  The answer is usually no. It's something else. It's unbelievable. Or it really is unbelievable to me because Jesus is, I mean, if you leave Christianity, the best way in between quotations, all of this, I don't wish this for anyone. But the actual way to leave Christianity for sure is actually saying no to Jesus because he is the Alpha and the Omega. He is Christianity.
• 13:07
  But well, so that is the reason for the question, is it because of Jesus? But the deconstruction, you said it really well. So imagine that you grow up in a legalistic home, let's say, and then you are 18 or 20, whatever, and then you go, you know what? I think my parents taught me that love must be earned.
• 13:28
  And I think, well, you know, because I needed to do good things all the time to earn their love. And all of a sudden they realize, oh, yeah, Christianity is not like that. And they taught me Christianity was like that. OK, so there's a moment that they go, OK, I need to know if this is true or not. So what they do is to get the most basic beliefs of Christianity and the way they got to them.
• 13:53
  to compare with actual scripture to see if they actually believe something that is right. So a legalistic person, let's say, that grew up in a legalistic family, they go, oh yeah, I don't need to earn love by actions. God loves me. So they...
• 14:09
  they deconstruct that and rebuild it with truth. And they do it, they do it, they do it more and more with all beliefs, eventually get into the position of, oh, wow, I'm really, I'm close to Jesus now, or I'm actually living the faith. The problem with the deconstructionism, to deconstructing, the problem with it is that usually the motivation in the heart is, oh,
• 14:34
  I want to live Christianity already, but I want to look intellectual about this. So I'm going to build these walls around me so that it can look very cool. No, I deconstruct this. Usually it's something, it's a person that has a broken heart for some reason. They just don't know how to process the pain. We all go through pain. And because they don't know how to process and being vulnerable makes us look vulnerable to people.
• 15:01
  They just built intellectual walls to make us look good and fine. But that's not usually the story about this.
• 15:10
  Yeah, you're right about a lot of people not being able to process pain, because we're sold in some circles that Christianity is, you know, it's just a good life, a happy life, a blessed life. Nothing bad happens right, and you can visualize success, and that's not the gospel. Jesus said, in this world you will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world. And I know I'm preaching to the choir here, Pedro.
• 15:36
  But tell us why you chose to write the book, also in the subtitle, Conversations. Why you chose to write the book in the format that you did and explain for those that haven't seen the book yet. It's not a chapter written by Pedro. It's Conversations with Different People. Explain that format and why you chose to do that.
• 15:58
  Well, it is interesting because this is actually not my first book officially. The first one was like the idea of this book, but it was more like me talking about topics. And I gave it to friends that love me so much and can be honest with me. And they told me, Peter, this is horrible.
• 16:16
  They didn't like it at all. Meaning not like that. I'm trying to be funny about this. But it sounded more like a manifesto. Like, there are many books written like that. But it was a friend of mine that was agnostic that told me, Pedro, I think you should write this book in a story as a novel.
• 16:33
  And I just got so excited when he told me that, that that's what I did. I wrote a novel, but in the form of conversations, because after having this small ministry that I had called Ask and Wonder, I brought atheists and Christians together to have conversations. I usually moderated discussions, but I also became the Christian speaker sometimes.
• 16:55
  And I just realized many things I learned through all of that is Christians usually don't engage with people that don't believe. And if they engage with their family members and there's so much feelings going around that they don't know how to approach the conversation well,
• 17:13
  So I thought, OK, this book, if I allow them to be a part of this conversation, it's almost like they're sitting at the table, but they don't have the camera on them to know what to say in the moment. So the story is a Christian that is losing his faith and an atheist that became a Christian.
• 17:33
  that is helping him through this journey. It's a very raw book, very raw, to show reality as is. So people can see, oh, there's the character that is a Christian that is very legalistic. There's the atheist that is just all over the place with these emotions. And there are people just, it's very raw. Now, the main reason why I wrote the book is because when Christians doubt
• 18:02
  they tend to isolate themselves. That happens so much. I kind of show my doubting to people because they're going to think that I'm sinning and all of that. So they just don't do it. But what I want with the book is the whole novel goes through all the chapters, all the characters. They go to the end. And at the end, the reader is going to face the question themselves.
• 18:26
  If they're doubting, is it because of Jesus? And the whole bit that they realize, oh, wow, no, I'm not. I'm not doubting because of Jesus. And that means the world. So the whole story, all the characters, and apparently people are loving the ending so much. It's very raw, but at the end, actually the reader is facing the question. So if you are praying for someone for many years, you just don't know, and sometimes you feel, I just...
• 18:55
  I sometimes feel like I don't want to pray for them anymore. Many years, this is the book that you would get to them. Or if you're a Christian that wants to have conversations better with non-believers, this is a book as well about this. And it's going to show you reality as is. This is a book that, for example, the youth...
• 19:15
  Before going to college, they go, oh, so this book is going to show them the world. They can read it with the parents, youth pastors. There are many ways to approach. But the main reason why I wrote it was that way. So because in conversations, you show who you are, not only what you know.
• 19:37
  That's an excellent point. Excellent point. By the way, I don't remember if I mentioned it is on Amazon. For those who doubt, is it because of Jesus? And again, all of his social media and the main website for Pedro Garcia, is it because of Jesus?
• 19:56
  dot com. So you mentioned legalism and an atheist looking at someone who is very legalistic. I would imagine that for atheists, they can look at hypocrisy, too, and that can turn people off. But what are some other reasons, different reasons for atheists or others, their non-belief in God?
• 20:17
  Yeah, I know, David, that we have mentioned this before, but we're so good at coming up with incredible, intellectually amazing arguments. But the common denominator is a broken heart.
• 20:33
  It's just what it is. It really, it's always that. I have met one person in 13 years that I actually believe he left Christianity only and exclusively because of intellectual reasons.
• 20:48
  It's just not common. It's rare, huh? Oh, it's so rare. So, yeah, I would say that, yeah, something happens to them growing up, someone overstepping in their relationship that this person that is doubting half with Jesus, claiming to be Jesus themselves, or becoming more pharisaical with the gospel,
• 21:14
  And there are many things, a pastor misusing the word of God to do something. There are so many things, but usually it's pain that wasn't processed properly. And after that, the intellectual shielding starts building. So I would say that there are people suffering, and that is the actual reason why people leave the faith.
• 21:40
  So I wanted to ask you this. You say that followers of Jesus live in a continuous paradox. What do you mean by that?
• 21:51
  Yeah, what I mean by that is, yeah, everything is a paradox about Christianity, to be honest with you. Like a God that becomes a human being to die for his creation. I mean, the whole history of religion was humanity sacrificing their sons to the gods, and all of a sudden God, the real one, sacrificed his son for humanity.
• 22:12
  Like that is one or, for example, what Paul says, you see every morning in the mirror, you see your body decaying, but internally you're becoming younger in the spirit because, you know, even though that you're going to die, you're going to live forever. That is, I mean, what an incredible thing to live in those two realities.
• 22:32
  So yeah, it's almost like we sometimes try to find mathematical answers for Christianity, but there's certain things about it that can only be understood through a relationship.
• 22:45
  Amen, brother. So you also say, we were talking about intellectuals before, people that are intellectual. I'm thinking that the main religious leaders and political leaders in Jesus' time were the most educated, right? But it seems like they were bent on tradition and not having a relationship with God. And in our day and age, it seems like intellectuals, you might think of the college professor or scientists or...
• 23:13
  Are they the furthest away from God because of their knowledge? So let me ask you this. Do you see a conflict between science and faith?
• 23:25
  Yeah, well, I don't. I don't. I really don't. Are there questions about this for which I still don't have answers? Absolutely. But I think it was the Belgian Confession in the 16th century that puts it really beautifully, which is God has written two books, the Book of Revelation, Scripture, and then you have the Book of Nature.
• 23:46
  So those two books are telling us incredible things about who he is and his character. And I really don't. I just don't see any conflicts. I can give you a snippet of it. One of the reasons why it's because it really blows my mind. The universe is written in a language that cannot be seen.
• 24:07
  which, by the way, Psalm 19 talks about this. It's mathematics. We actually need to invent graphs to actually put it on paper digitally, numbers and equations. But it's out there. It's ready to be discovered. And it happens to be the case that you need a brain that we have in order to understand it.
• 24:27
  And it's a language that is out there and it's written already. You need someone intelligent to know how to read it. So I don't think that all of this comes out of an unguided process of atoms.
• 24:43
  clashing with each other with no purpose. I just see purpose in everything. I really do. And actually scientists are the one that should be the most in awe with Scripture because they go to a laboratory expecting that the universe is going to be in order and they go and they find order and then they communicate it. Oh yeah, there is a pattern here, you know, let me...
• 25:06
  Let me show it to you. So the God question is so unescapable to me. It's just I don't see any conflict there. Praise God. Yeah, I agree with you completely. I mean, creation testifies to the presence and the existence of God. I mean, you read that in the Psalms, in Romans 1. Creation groans, you know, until the return and the renewal of all things. Last question. I wish we had more time.
• 25:36
  Because the book title is, For Those Who Doubt, Is It Because of Jesus? And you said, you know, 99% of the time it's not because of Jesus. But is it wrong to have doubts along the way in one's faith or journey? Yes. So, no, it's not. And Scripture is very clear about this. You have the last prophet of the Old Covenant, John the Baptist, doubting. Right.
• 26:01
  Jesus. And what he does is to send his disciples to him. And when he hears the doubts, Jesus actually compliments John after hearing that he's doubting because he sends an answer back through the prophet Isaiah. And the key is here, someone is listening, is doubting, is that there are two ways to doubt. You can doubt towards Jesus or you can doubt away from him. Mm-hmm.
• 26:27
  There are many people that doubt in Scripture. Elisha on a mountain, kill me now. David, like, tell me one person that is not, like, that Scripture is not scared of doubting. Doubting is not a sin. But what you do with it, of course, the enemy might want to use it. But if you bring...
• 26:46
  your doubt to the one that did everything for you already. What the doubt is going to cause you is to build a deeper relationship with him. The doubts are expectives. What you do with the doubt is the most important thing.
• 27:02
  Amen. I'm so glad I got that question out before the end, Pedro. But thank you so much. Great conversation. I just pray for good success for you. Continued passion and success in your just evangelism and your sharing of the gospel and all that you're doing in ministry. The website, again, friends, is it because of Jesus dot com. Brother, thanks for writing for those who doubt. Let's keep in touch, OK?
• 27:29
  Thank you. All right. God bless you, brother. Thank you, friends. Thank you, friends. I really think you'll enjoy the format of the book, the conversational style of the book. You'll really appreciate that. And God bless you. And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter. See you next time.