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Speaking With Tin Men, a Men's Issues Advocate | Fireside Chat 225 · Honey Badger Radio

• 0:00
  Hello everybody, and welcome to Honey Badger Radio. My name is Brian and
• 0:03
  this is the fireside Chat, and today our guest is Well, your name
• 0:09
  is George, but you are known as uh tin tin Men. The tin
• 0:14
  the tin Men is the name of my account, but my act name is
• 0:16
  George. Yeah, hello George. Everybody say hello to George if you want.
• 0:22
  I'm not telling you what to do, but you probably will choose.
• 0:25
  And I am also joined by my dog, Jojo, who you can see
• 0:28
  is sleeping on his bed. Um. It's always nice to have an animal
• 0:31
  around, I think. Yeah, I see your dog too on the couch
• 0:37
  there. What breed is that? She's a whip hit a whippit. Oh
• 0:41
  I like those dogs. Yeah. Didn't get me started, because I'll spend
• 0:44
  the whole two I was talking about home out of my dog. Same.
• 0:49
  Yeah. So Jojo is American foxhound Australian cattle dog mix. So he's interesting
• 0:56
  mutt, but just a mutt nonetheless. Anyway, stopped by embarrassing myself and
• 1:00
  sure name he told me on name. My name is Brian Martinez. It's
• 1:04
  okay, I'm the I'm I'm the producer at Honey Badger Radio. But I'm
• 1:10
  not what most people think of when they think of Honey Badger Radio because Honeybage
• 1:14
  Radio was started by women that were advocating for men, men's rights, men's
• 1:18
  issues, and they've been doing it for over ten years. I kind of
• 1:23
  like started off as a fan and I wanted to help them, and as
• 1:26
  an artist, I did some work for their website and then they brought me
• 1:30
  on to talk about an experience I had in university, and I've been working
• 1:36
  with them ever since. So I'm I'm the the token man on Honey Badger
• 1:42
  Radio. Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean I would love to talk to
• 1:46
  you about being a man in this space because about it, like, yeah,
• 1:49
  well, I just feel like, honest, I wonder how much people
• 1:52
  listen because obviously the minds that need to be changed, in my opinion,
• 1:56
  are, I guess, the all the feminist voices, and typically I didn't
• 1:59
  find feminists who speak to listen to someone like me, especially a white guy,
• 2:05
  especially a push white guy as they call me. So I mean I'm
• 2:07
  interested as if you've had a sim experience, do you find that your female
• 2:10
  colleagues, the women that you work with, a more affected changing minds?
• 2:14
  And hundred percent. Like the thing is is that obviously there have been men,
• 2:20
  and it's not really like it comes down to whether or not the arguments
• 2:23
  are good. And I think that there have been men doing this longer that
• 2:27
  make the exact same arguments, but when it comes from a woman, people
• 2:30
  are more likely to listen. And that includes me because you know, when
• 2:34
  I found Honey Badger Radio, I first was this is years ago. I
• 2:39
  was watching I was talking to a friend of mine and we were both like
• 2:44
  having a lot of trouble with relationship. We're looking for, you know,
• 2:46
  a partner, long term, monogamous, wanted to get married, so a
• 2:50
  family, things like that, and we were running into lots of problems.
• 2:53
  And we were in Chicago, big city, lots of people, so no
• 2:55
  no shortage of people, but we weren't finding any women that were like either
• 3:01
  liked us or were going to like you know that we're pursuing the same kind
• 3:07
  of goal. And my really close friend who I was, who had known
• 3:12
  since college, he told me about this phenomenon in Japan called the herbivore men.
• 3:15
  Have you heard of the herbivore men or the grass eater man? Oh?
• 3:19
  Yeah, So that's what got me started, and it's still a thing
• 3:22
  that goes on there. So I looked into some of that, and through
• 3:24
  that I found miktow content, which, like the people who were making it
• 3:30
  then, are not really on the Internet anymore. But I was watching a
• 3:32
  lot of miktow content trying to absorb this stuff. And then I came across
• 3:36
  Karen Strawn, a girl writes what, and I binge watched all of her
• 3:40
  videos, and then there was It just went from there. I was following
• 3:43
  all kinds of other people. So what I and I and I every time
• 3:47
  I think about that, I go back and I say, you know,
• 3:51
  if it weren't if it weren't for women talking about this, I probably wouldn't
• 3:54
  have been interested. I probably would have thought of it. And because I
• 3:58
  was a blue piled guy back and I probably would have thought, oh,
• 4:00
  these are just man whining, right, And that's kind of like what most
• 4:03
  people think when you tell them, oh, I'm a man, I advocate
• 4:08
  for men. At least that's what it was maybe five years ago or so,
• 4:12
  although I do think that that's changing today. I think that there's a
• 4:15
  lot more openness and more people are bringing these things up. So that's really
• 4:19
  the short version of my story. Similar yeah, similar to me, but
• 4:23
  swap out Karen Strown bringing Aaron Pittsy. Yeah, okay, it was it
• 4:27
  was Aaron. I was just like, yeah, yeah, oh my god,
• 4:31
  I got I was lucky enough to interview Aaron Pitsy and I I've hung
• 4:34
  out with her a couple of times. So considering I'm I'm an ocean away,
• 4:40
  you know, it's not easy. We've been some dick measure getting on
• 4:44
  it. But I've always say, met Aaron pity twice. I'm not being
• 4:49
  competitive, but we talk about later about me night. I mean, she's
• 4:55
  a role model, I think, not to me, but to a lot
• 4:57
  a lot of the community. And I really have a lot admiration for her.
• 5:00
  Yeah. I've made it a bit of like a life goal of mine
• 5:02
  to just tell as many people about her as possible. So whenever that,
• 5:06
  whenever the words Aaron Pitzier brought up, I always make sure there's at least
• 5:10
  two minutes of empty space so I can explain to people the story of Aaron
• 5:14
  Pittsy and then their face, their face is absolutely shocked. Like I remember,
• 5:18
  we interviewed her only a few weeks ago. Of a crew film crew.
• 5:21
  I remembers looking across at the director photography and he was shaking his He
• 5:27
  was absolutely outraged about her, and he couldn't wait until finished rolling so he
• 5:30
  could jump in and be like, I've got so many questions, and he
• 5:32
  was just he was livid. He was like, why does no one know
• 5:35
  that I'm anyway? Well, we can get into that, but firstly,
• 5:41
  I just want to say, so you have been talking about men's issues for
• 5:45
  how long, like on your own how long you've been doing that for where
• 5:47
  I remember I remember when I it was the centenary of a hundred years since
• 5:51
  to vote? So what was that? I was twenty nineteen and it was
• 5:57
  coming up to it, and I just again stuneboard. That's the fact that
• 6:00
  half of men in nineteen nineteen also couldn't vote, and those men also won
• 6:04
  the right to vote alongside the Suffragetts and women. And I was just like,
• 6:09
  I'm going to sit back and I'm going to wait for this one hundred
• 6:11
  anuniversity to roll around, and I'm going to see if that gets any sort
• 6:14
  of mention. And it didn't really did. I mean, at best,
• 6:16
  it was like a little footnote and that half of men couldn't vote. And
• 6:21
  then I guess, I guess I had a few different personal experiences that once
• 6:27
  I got refused a rental on a flat because I was a man. Yeah,
• 6:32
  health to comfort and safety of the landladies. She didn't want a man.
• 6:36
  Yeah. And then I was to start. I guess that started.
• 6:40
  That was the that was the thread he pull and then it comes out and
• 6:43
  then everything and rebels. So that was two nineteen, so I got to
• 6:46
  say four years. But I really kicked it into high gear, like constant
• 6:50
  posting every single day to twenty twenty during lockdown. Now it became like a
• 6:55
  little bit of like abby yeah, yeah, I couldn't believe it. I
• 7:00
  can't believe. I was like, look all these amazing discussions that aren't being
• 7:01
  hard. I'm a content creator. I can have these conversations. I can.
• 7:05
  I can all the good thing about men's issues up because everyone's so afraid
• 7:10
  to talk about them. It's excellent. It's excellent for me because I'm looking
• 7:13
  for original content, and all of it's original because no one's talking about it.
• 7:16
  No one dares pick up the fruit, the forbidden fruit, for example,
• 7:19
  we eat it, but oh, I'll just like yeah, exactly.
• 7:25
  So I'll say twenty nineteen, so I guess four years, three and a
• 7:28
  half years. Yeah, and um, we're okay. So uh I heard
• 7:33
  of you, well you reached out to us, but weirdly enough right around
• 7:38
  the same time or at least you. So Allison is the she's the boss
• 7:43
  of Honey Badger. Yeah, she's the big Badger in charge. And I
• 7:47
  she lets me use her Twitter account because I got banned from Twitter like a
• 7:53
  few years ago and I haven't been able to get back on, even after
• 7:56
  Elon Musk bought it, and I've been I've been sending them messages and they're
• 7:59
  like, well, we're looking to it or whatever, right, but I
• 8:01
  think there's a lot of people waiting to get back on. So, um,
• 8:05
  like Karen just got back on Twitter not long ago. Also, So
• 8:07
  anyway, Alison's been letting to use her account in the in the meantime.
• 8:11
  So that's why I've been talking to you through Allison's account because I don't have
• 8:15
  my own what we're gonna say, I mean an account. She's was she
• 8:20
  bound, she was she was banned. Yeah, so this was before like
• 8:24
  this is before you know, like when Jack Dorsey was still running things and
• 8:28
  um, and that's fine, like whatever, right. Karen didn't care anyway,
• 8:31
  but when she came back on, she was like, oh, I'm
• 8:33
  back. I guess right, so whatever. So but the but the it's
• 8:37
  interesting timing, just like I guess Providence that you know you you we were
• 8:43
  talking to you about coming on our show and then at the same time we
• 8:46
  um were responding to a video put out by another men's advocate, Chloe Roma.
• 8:54
  You probably know Roma Army or whatever, and yeah, and we were
• 8:58
  sort of responding to that in a video that we did, and then she
• 9:03
  dropped your name and in the description there was your your stuff. So it's
• 9:07
  interesting because there was like a you know, you can see that we're sort
• 9:11
  of traveling in similar spaces. Yeah, it's a small world, but I
• 9:13
  mean the men's the men's issues conversation is very small, so you know,
• 9:18
  um, but I guess what I wanted to ask. So that's how I
• 9:22
  heard of you outside of like the exchange we had on Twitter. Have you
• 9:26
  ever have you heard of us? I assume you know Karen Strawn, but
• 9:30
  I mean yeah, I mean, I mean, if Karen Strawn's hiding in
• 9:33
  that COPD behind you, but yeah, I definitely, yeah, I know
• 9:39
  Karen. I read her scathing Reddit comments I've seen. She's extremely charismatic person,
• 9:46
  very interesting and obviously YouTube video isn't really really great too. See on
• 9:50
  the Red Pill she makes excellent points. Uh huh. But then I understands
• 9:56
  and she sort of took some time off. Whether voluntarily or she's band,
• 10:00
  I don't know, but I'm from a fan of from like what YouTube or
• 10:03
  something or um. I mean, I know she took a hiatus and Reddit.
• 10:09
  I mean, I can't speak for her, but yeah, yeah,
• 10:11
  My understanding is that I think she took some time off, read it and
• 10:15
  seemingly banned from Twitter. That's a new thing I just learned. M Yeah,
• 10:20
  and I mean she I guess she used the household name of the honey
• 10:22
  patches and enjoyed watching your content. This new podcast as based catching myself up.
• 10:26
  Thank you. Excellent, excellent artwork, great branding. Oh yeah,
• 10:30
  thank you. Thank Your work is not all me, but a lot of
• 10:33
  it is me, but not. Animation is exceptional chocolate. Oh yeah,
• 10:39
  that's yeah, that's not me, but but it is interesting. It's interesting
• 10:43
  because a lot of these issues I feel suffer from a bit of a brand
• 10:46
  identity crisis where they're presented in a way that I don't think it's particularly effective.
• 10:50
  And that's why I find it interesting, because my expertise aren't necessarily in
• 10:54
  research or psychology or all these differently. My expertise are in the creative industry
• 10:58
  and presenting, presenting ideas in a way that makes them engaging, makes them
• 11:03
  accessible. And I don't I don't I've ever seen a channel other than my
• 11:09
  own that presents ideas quite like yours in terms of visually, and that animation
• 11:13
  is exceptional, and the branding is great that even your little microphone down there
• 11:18
  love it. The name Honey Badgers. Oh yeah, right here, Yeah
• 11:20
  my idea, Yeah, really great, so modern. Thank you for places
• 11:26
  it's Yeah. I think there's definitely conversation to have about the brand any crisis
• 11:31
  of men and boys issues, because ultimately the facts are overwhelmingly like shocking.
• 11:39
  Information is shocking, the data of shocking. It's like we've been dealt a
• 11:43
  winning hand of cards, but we just can't seem to put them down in
• 11:46
  the right way. And I feel like they're putting down in the wrong way
• 11:48
  often. I mean, I talked about the Red Pill documentary so interesting.
• 11:52
  But that film is just badly made. And I like Kassie Jay, but
• 11:56
  I feel like it could have been better. Why do you Okay, No,
• 12:00
  that's fair. Um, I was gonna ask, so you documentary?
• 12:03
  Yeah, yeah, no it is great. Um, and I've like,
• 12:07
  I love Cassey j. I mean I've hung out with her many times.
• 12:11
  I think we could be really close friends if she didn't live in California and
• 12:13
  I didn't live in Virginia. But um, she's a great, a great
• 12:18
  person, and I'm so happy for her. She's just had her second child,
• 12:22
  uh and they look really happy. But anyway, well, um,
• 12:28
  without well, I guess when you say that there are problems with the film,
• 12:31
  are you just talking from like a sort of like uh cinema, you
• 12:37
  know, like, let's say a craft aspect, like the way that it's
• 12:41
  crafted, like how it's shocked or scripted or whatever. I'd have to go
• 12:46
  for it with fine tieth kind with you, and that would be any probably
• 12:50
  boring experience. But yeah, I mean we don't have to do that.
• 12:52
  I'm just I just want to get the part. So I'm a professional filmmaker,
• 12:56
  so I can that sped my biggest expertise in terms of documentary film.
• 13:01
  Yeah, and I want to remind I want to say again like that documentary
• 13:05
  is excellent. It is definitely worth watching. I'm also a big fan of
• 13:07
  Cassie. It's the content and the things have been brought up. I don't
• 13:11
  think it's certainly not bad, and the information certainly comes across, but it's
• 13:15
  this bits where like sound like it sounded like really important. That bad sound
• 13:20
  Oh yeah, sure there there. I do remember at least one interview with
• 13:24
  a guy and the sound current really bad. Karen's interview. Yeah, well
• 13:28
  Karen's was could have been better too, Yes, but I mean there was
• 13:31
  another gentleman. It was really scene. But if there's a sequel, Cassie,
• 13:37
  please reach out and I will love to help support and bring a little
• 13:41
  bit more polish professional She's she's not a documentary filmmaker. That wasn't I'm not
• 13:45
  sure if that was her nessary a job and she's working up a tiny budget.
• 13:50
  Yeah, I really think she did a great job. But I thought
• 13:54
  it's more that the issues are deserving of more and I would love to make
• 13:58
  a documentary in the future. A film costs money and it's true, it's
• 14:03
  will be well sitting here creating memes of my up top for three, but
• 14:07
  to create film, like just to get that interview of Aaron in the bag
• 14:09
  thousand pounds size, like just the kinds of crew and kit higher and like
• 14:15
  it's not there wasn't much money in a space, as you know. And
• 14:18
  I understand me. I'm sure it's about I mean, if we wanted to
• 14:22
  make money, we'd be feminists. But I can come back to that.
• 14:24
  I mean, that's where the money is. So but yeah, I mean,
• 14:30
  I guess like I would call it a first out for Cassie because she
• 14:35
  did make another she wanted to make films, but now that she's got a
• 14:39
  family, she does have a project in the works. And I'm I don't
• 14:43
  want to speak for her, but she m Unfortunately, Cassie J had a
• 14:48
  miscarriage and it was very traumatic for her. This was before she had two
• 14:52
  other children, and so she thought it would be really good to do a
• 14:54
  whole documentary about miscarriages and U So, I don't know where that is right
• 15:01
  now, but that was like her next project. And I think that because
• 15:05
  of all the stuff she went through just just trying to get this film released
• 15:11
  and I'm a Maid to begin with, I think it was really it was
• 15:15
  really hard on her, the way the media treated her and everything. You
• 15:18
  know, it was very brutal. And it almost tells you that, like
• 15:20
  it doesn't matter if you are a woman speaking for men. If you're speaking
• 15:26
  for men, you're going to run into problems. Right. They might be
• 15:28
  a little kinder to you, like maybe they'll just try to slander you in
• 15:33
  the media or something like that, but with men, it's you know,
• 15:37
  they won't even give you a platform. I mean, have you seen the
• 15:39
  protests where doctor Warren Farrell This was a while ago, Yeah, Toronto,
• 15:46
  you've seen that, Okay, yeah, so yeah yeah. So um.
• 15:52
  With that being said, why do you think there is so much resistance to
• 16:00
  having those issues be heard. When I speak to people whose minds I want
• 16:07
  to change, often I realized it's not even necessarily about them information or data
• 16:11
  I presents them. Often I see their ideas are not necessarily attached to a
• 16:17
  sense of like rationale or logic or reason, but they're sort of embedded into
• 16:21
  their very identity. It's like in their skin. People wear politics and these
• 16:26
  days like some sort of fashion accessory to look good and sound sound. I
• 16:29
  make friends. And when you have a certain group, a certain set of
• 16:33
  political ideas, like such as feminist feminists, like theory, often that isn't
• 16:37
  just a set of ideas. That's your friends, that's your job, that's
• 16:41
  your community, that's like your family. And you, I mean, I'm
• 16:45
  sure you know as well as I do. If you step out of that,
• 16:48
  you're ostracized. If you question it, you're ostracized. And I don't.
• 16:52
  I know people who if they were to believe what I believe and would
• 16:55
  say the things that I say, they would they would literally lose friends as
• 16:59
  I have, and they would lose money, and they might even lose their
• 17:00
  job, Like I know people that work for feminist charities and their job is
• 17:04
  conditional on them believing these ideas, and that creates a set of ideas that
• 17:08
  are so rigid that they simply can't be changed. And people don't want to
• 17:14
  lose their community or their friends. And I understand, I totally understand that,
• 17:18
  And it's not it's more about changing your actual identity when your politics are
• 17:23
  wrapped up in how you identify. If you identify as a certain political group
• 17:27
  or a thing like you can't change it, and it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing
• 17:33
  to be wrong. Yeah, yes, yes, if you badge yourself with
• 17:37
  something so much, and then if you find out that badge is wrong,
• 17:41
  it's like I always describe as like walking around a food in between its teeth
• 17:45
  and even walking around a free matief all day, and then you find out
• 17:48
  that it's any embarrassed and a lot of people don't like it, and yeah,
• 17:53
  well there there, there is, there is. They are ego invested
• 17:56
  so that you're right. And what's interesting is that you're mentioning you're using the
• 18:03
  term political to describe this. Now. I used to think when I started
• 18:08
  this that talking about men's issues should not be a political issue. But then
• 18:15
  I later realized I sort of shifted that and I said, okay, okay,
• 18:18
  maybe it's political, but it shouldn't be partisan, right, Like it
• 18:22
  shouldn't be something where, you know, advocating for men means that you have
• 18:26
  to like oppose women somehow, like that it's a zero sum game. And
• 18:33
  I still think that that is true, but that doesn't work because it has
• 18:40
  been made political. Like you know, the saying the personal is political comes
• 18:44
  from feminism, right, and even though I might say, well, look,
• 18:47
  I'm not I just want justice. I don't even want to call it
• 18:51
  equality because I think that that's a messy word, and you know, I
• 18:55
  don't think it's very useful. But and I don't want to call it fairness
• 19:00
  because I think that comes a little messy too. It's but I will call
• 19:03
  it justice, like what is you know? How how do you give every
• 19:07
  person their due based on their limits and their abilities or whatever. And I
• 19:15
  don't think that we're doing that for men. And I think that a part
• 19:21
  of that comes down to not acknowledging the fact that men and women are different.
• 19:26
  I mean, like, not just physically but psychologically emotionally. Are we
• 19:32
  evolved differently everything? Right? I mean, we're more the same than different.
• 19:36
  And nobody's saying that you should put restrictions on this group or that group.
• 19:40
  But if we treat them like they're the same, but we favor women,
• 19:44
  then you're going to have a situation where men are being treated like women
• 19:48
  and they're going to be expected to act like women and be more like women
• 19:52
  because we are presenting our population as you know, the feminine is somehow better
• 20:00
  and the masculine is unnecessary. Right, that makes sense. I feel like
• 20:04
  it. You're half right in a sense that where but where I don't know
• 20:10
  if you're right, is that we are willing to explore differences but only when
• 20:12
  women are different to men, or like, for example, like if we
• 20:15
  look at the American well, if they're better than men, Yeah, I
• 20:19
  mean, as we can talk a little bit about that's a very interesting area
• 20:22
  of discussion. But I was thinking about if we talk about a space where
• 20:25
  men have dominated, let's just say that corporate America, where you know,
• 20:29
  for a hundred years the biggest companies have been run by men, had been
• 20:32
  run by male boards. Eighty percent of boards in America run by our male
• 20:37
  sure, and that that I think there is a good argument that that sort
• 20:41
  of environment leads to working environments to the benefit of other men. Not necessarily
• 20:45
  in like a intentional way, but just that's just natural what happens when you
• 20:48
  have a space created by a certain group. That's fine. But I don't
• 20:52
  see that same idea consistent across education. For example, I'd be like in
• 20:57
  the UK, we found out we need that one in four schools in the
• 21:02
  UK have no male teachers, so not single male teaching at school one in
• 21:04
  four schools, and not twenty percent of all costumes have a man. So
• 21:10
  there's almost as an exact same disparity of men to women in costumes as there
• 21:14
  are men boardrooms. No one's willing to talk about are we creating an educational
• 21:18
  costume as beneficially goes? And I feel like that's a good argument. I
• 21:21
  can speak to both of those things. But let's back up and look at
• 21:23
  the CEO thing for a moment, because we do hear this a lot,
• 21:26
  and there's a couple of things that I think, you know, the longer
• 21:30
  I've been doing this, the more I realize that when we when people throw
• 21:33
  and I know that this is commonly said, right, Oh, all the
• 21:36
  big companies are run by men, the top one percent is mostly men,
• 21:37
  etc. Right, politicians are all men, And that's an easy thing to
• 21:42
  say, and if you don't think too much about it, then you'll just
• 21:45
  go along with the patriarchy narrative. Right. But but let's let's look at
• 21:51
  this again for a moment. First of all, yes, most CEOs and
• 21:56
  most people on boards at large corporations are men, but how many homeless are
• 22:00
  men? Like? What? Like? There? Yes, there's there's there's
• 22:04
  a lot of men at the top. This is what we call the apex
• 22:07
  fallacy, but there's far more at the bottom. And I'm not just talking
• 22:11
  about like you know, when when there are people who are destitute, Um,
• 22:17
  women are far more likely to get shelter and support and whatever they need
• 22:22
  right faster than men will. So we are when people point at the very
• 22:26
  top, and it does it for me anyway. It exposes the fact that
• 22:30
  they're not even looking at the men at the bottom. They don't care about
• 22:33
  that, right, They're looking at the men at the top, and they're
• 22:34
  saying, why don't I have what he has? And and so it's I
• 22:38
  think it's a very unfair way to look at things. Plus I think that
• 22:42
  to be a CEO of a company you need a specific kind of mindset.
• 22:45
  So of course most men, like not not even the homeless men, but
• 22:49
  just like the average man is not going to be able to do that.
• 22:52
  So we're looking at the not just the top one percent or more accurately,
• 22:57
  the top one percent of the top one percent of men and saying this is
• 23:03
  unfair to women. But we're not even looking at the other ninety eight percent
• 23:07
  or ninety percent of men that are just swimming in the middle somewhere, you
• 23:11
  know, just doing their Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like the yeah,
• 23:17
  it's like the bell the bell curve. Yeah, exactly. So that's
• 23:21
  the one thing. And to the education thing. Um, you know,
• 23:26
  well, we could get into how I'm not even sure that education is as
• 23:30
  useful as it's supposed to be anymore, just because of the stuff that they
• 23:33
  teach. But but like back away from that for a moment. I think
• 23:37
  one of the reasons why you have more women in education partly because that's what
• 23:41
  they're interested in, where just like you know, running a business or or
• 23:45
  or going in the military, doing the dangerous work is the sort of the
• 23:47
  stuff that men are more inclined to do. As partly that, but it's
• 23:52
  also that, um, there is a stigma around being a male teacher now
• 23:56
  because there is this especially at the younger levels. Right, So if you're
• 23:59
  doing if you want to do preschool or daycare or kindergarten as a man,
• 24:04
  you are viewed with suspicion. There is this because there is this threat narrative
• 24:08
  around men that feminism is created that essentially presumes that they any man it's like
• 24:14
  Schrodinger's uh, you know, child abuser or or a pedophile. And no,
• 24:19
  I mean, I mean, this is not an exaggeration. This is
• 24:22
  a fairly common thing. You know. That was a great film. And
• 24:25
  I don't like to bring in like movies as examples because I think that they
• 24:29
  tend to be bad examples, you know. But there is a great movie.
• 24:33
  I can't remember the name of it right now, I'm sorry it but
• 24:36
  it it a Mad's Michelson is in it, so you know, you might
• 24:38
  know him from Casino Royale. The Hunt. Yes, The Hunt. Yeah,
• 24:42
  I think it is so good. Yes, yes, And it's a
• 24:47
  very it's a very good example of the kind of thing that can happen.
• 24:49
  It doesn't necessarily mean that it has happened, but it can happen. And
• 24:53
  so there is because we view men in this way, because it's been told
• 25:00
  us over and over and over again that men are violent, that men are
• 25:02
  abusive, that men are toxic, that men are these negative things, all
• 25:06
  these negative qualities. And at the same time, our culture does not acknowledge
• 25:11
  that women are capable of all of the same things. Right that it's about
• 25:15
  capacity, not necessarily like you know, whether the outcomes are the same.
• 25:19
  Um, then people are going to view men. They're more likely to view
• 25:22
  men with suspicion. They're more likely to wonder, or why does this guy
• 25:26
  want to be a teacher? You know, I mean, does that does
• 25:29
  that not make sense? Or that makes total sense? But that's besides the
• 25:32
  point of what I was talking about. I'm saying that the fact that these
• 25:34
  classrooms exist that dominated by women is leading to Is that leading to an educational
• 25:38
  system for whatever reason it's happening, But is that creating a system of learning
• 25:44
  that is more favable to and well creating that's a creating system that's fable to
• 25:48
  GOLs, Yeah, and even like a working But that's that's kind of my
• 25:52
  point, because you you create the threat narrative, then more women get the
• 25:57
  job than those women in turn raised girls and boys like girls. So you're
• 26:03
  you it's it's not it's like it is the way that I think it tumbles
• 26:07
  downhill from the top. Because so I'm I'm gonna be fifty years old in
• 26:12
  September. Yeah, I'm gonna be fifty years old in September. I know
• 26:17
  there's some grades and this is the most unbelievable. So thank you, thank
• 26:25
  you. You're like thirty something, right, You're like your thirties. Thirty
• 26:29
  something, okay, thirty one now, well anyway, I'm gonna be fifties.
• 26:36
  So I'm only saying that because when I was in grammar school in the
• 26:40
  eighties, my I had male teachers and female teachers, and there wasn't we
• 26:47
  didn't have the same kind of teaching that we do now. I think there's
• 26:51
  something about the curriculum has certainly changed. It's not only become more girl focused,
• 26:55
  but it's it's really moved away from boys. Um, the way that
• 26:59
  boys learn, you know, Like when I was when I was a child,
• 27:02
  we would go on field trips, we would like I would handle things,
• 27:06
  you know, because boys, yes, exactly. Um and UM.
• 27:11
  I just was super engaged back then. And I did substitute teaching for a
• 27:17
  bit for the last few years. And here in Virginia, which is ah.
• 27:21
  I wouldn't say it's a conservative state, but it's kind of a mix
• 27:23
  as opposed to Chicago. UM. I did some substitute teaching there and the
• 27:29
  kids were like, they did never read Treasure Island, They never read these
• 27:33
  adventure stories. The time machine and like you know, uh orwell, they
• 27:37
  didn't read any of those things. They had these very simplified books. And
• 27:41
  these were kids in sixth grade, seventh grade, middle school, and they
• 27:45
  were um, they were about relationships. They weren't like you know, they
• 27:48
  didn't even read the Iliad or the Odyssey. They didn't know about any of
• 27:52
  those things. And I couldn't I couldn't believe it, and I didn't know
• 27:56
  what to do. Although the teachers there, so I don't think it it's
• 28:00
  coming from the people that are on the ground floor, because they were very
• 28:03
  grateful, Like I'm I couldn't tell you how many times a woman a teacher
• 28:07
  would say, Wow, it's sure is nice to have a man around here,
• 28:11
  right. I mean I heard that all the time. So I didn't
• 28:15
  think it's I'm not saying it's it's that's consciously happening. I don't think like
• 28:18
  women are like getting classrooms and like secretly am I just feel like I feel
• 28:23
  like, but I do think that the curriculum influences them, like it's I
• 28:29
  don't I think that. You know, when we talk about um feminism,
• 28:33
  I think it's important to note because I've I've been trying to help people understand
• 28:37
  this. The feminist perspective is not it's it's all everyone's perspective. It's the
• 28:44
  default. It's if you're if you're if. It doesn't matter if you're on
• 28:48
  the right or on the left. Everyone is to some degree they have feminist
• 28:52
  beliefs. Right, So like maybe the far left is like ultra progressive,
• 28:57
  like intersectional, you know, Black Lives Matter, feminists and maybe, but
• 29:02
  then maybe on the right it's like second Wave or you know, First Wave
• 29:06
  and um. But but they all have that. They all have that shared
• 29:11
  belief like almost everyone. And the it's hard to the reason why I bring
• 29:15
  that up is because when I it's hard not to know that and then assume
• 29:22
  that it won't have any influence over people, even if they're not trying right,
• 29:26
  like you said, like the teachers are not. Maybe they're not necessarily
• 29:30
  thinking I'm going to engineer the women to succeed in the boys to fail.
• 29:33
  Right, Definitely, they're definitely not. Yes, that's not but that but
• 29:37
  yeah, go ahead, go ahead. I want I want to qush that
• 29:41
  narrative as much as I want to qush the other things, like this is
• 29:42
  not some nefarious narrative, some gaggle of women not controlling it. I feel
• 29:47
  like women are just behaving in a way that they know best because women don't,
• 29:49
  in general see to see things same as men. And in a space
• 29:52
  where it's dominated by women's such education, I feel like that's nature're going to
• 29:56
  lead to learning styles and attitude that are more beneficial to girls, in the
• 30:00
  same way that a corporate space that's dominated by men, not necessarily just at
• 30:04
  the CEO level, but right across the organization that is going to create space
• 30:08
  for men's working needs. And I feel like this is huge, huge evidence
• 30:12
  for how education is set up more for girls and boys. You mentioned vocational
• 30:17
  learning, but you could always talk about how some people it's a controversial thing.
• 30:19
  Some people talk about red shirting boys. Some people talk about the style
• 30:25
  of learning, which is based a lot around sitting quietly and reading, is
• 30:27
  more geared towards girls and it's for boys. That's something I find really personally
• 30:32
  relatable. And then there's also the fact that women see boys behavior differently to
• 30:37
  men. Male teachers such yourself are less likely to problematize boys so called bad
• 30:42
  behavior. So maybe a female teacher sees a boy's naughtiness as being naughty,
• 30:48
  but a male teacher might see is in being disengaged or board, in which
• 30:52
  case the problem is different. The problem that one is a bad boy.
• 30:55
  This one is a disengaged boy. And also like boys is like more more
• 31:00
  space, they more n spatial learning or vocational learning. Sure they as arguments
• 31:06
  that they developed later, So maybe should start school a year later. And
• 31:11
  the thing is that the big, the big elephant room is like, we
• 31:15
  don't really know. We only have different ideas someone which are given you.
• 31:19
  But no one's trying to find out. No one's trying to find No one's
• 31:22
  trying to answer that question, right, And that's the big that's the big
• 31:26
  question. Why is why is this conversation happening between us not happening at the
• 31:29
  highest level of government? Like boys, I've not been behind a little bit.
• 31:32
  They've been behind every single area, every single age group in every single
• 31:37
  western country for three decades, as far behind now as women worth fifty years
• 31:41
  ago. Nothing is being done well some that's the big thing. Yeah,
• 31:45
  some men, some men in I guess you could say positions of political influence
• 31:49
  have brought it up. Josh Harley, who's like a. I don't know,
• 31:53
  he's like a senator or a congressman or something. He did a whole
• 31:56
  thing on it, but no, no one's listening. There is also that,
• 32:00
  so I think I think where um, I think that. I don't
• 32:06
  think it's a cabal, Just to be clear, I don't think that that's
• 32:09
  going on. But I do think that there is a narrative, a general
• 32:15
  a belief about the way the world works that has been influenced by by these
• 32:22
  ideologues, so academics, intellectuals. I'm not saying teachers. I think teachers
• 32:28
  just think that what they're doing is the right thing in most cases. But
• 32:31
  I do think there's an issue. Did you have when you were a child,
• 32:36
  did you have recess? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
• 32:40
  My recess extended across the entire school day. I just I just run around
• 32:44
  school paying wild Honestly, I was just like I didn't do at school.
• 32:50
  I didn't come up with great grades, but I knew I wasn't cheapid.
• 32:53
  Yeah, my parents so routine. He cooled into school saying he's a smart
• 32:58
  boy, but he's not trying hard. And and that was always my fault.
• 33:01
  I was the one that got sat on the end of the bed and
• 33:04
  sort of in a kind way told that I'm not doing it right. I'm
• 33:07
  not behaving popularly, and at no point that any of my teachers or my
• 33:09
  parents consider maybe that style of education isn't suitable to George's needs. And I
• 33:16
  think hopefully since leveland school, I've found ways to which I can self direct
• 33:20
  work and educate myself and do like my own learning, and I feel like
• 33:25
  being a lot better. But sitting down in a room and reading there's still
• 33:30
  not something I can do now, Like I don't read books. I listened
• 33:31
  to audiobooks, I go on walk so I I liked it, and I
• 33:36
  like, I just wasn't. I don't think school was suitable for me.
• 33:38
  I don't think it's a suitable lot of girls either, But it's less suitable
• 33:42
  for more boys. And that's I think it's partly what's causing the growing disparity
• 33:47
  between boys and girls. Yeah, And I just think we at least need
• 33:52
  to find out, Like there is no national coalition for boys and men in
• 33:57
  education, but the certainly is that organizational woman and girl. So why is
• 34:01
  that? Well, you know, Philip Davies, I think as a party
• 34:07
  and he's I've met him and he's a good guy. So but again I
• 34:10
  think, um, yeah, it's it is a challenge. I think the
• 34:15
  education system has lots of challenges, but definitely the main one is the way
• 34:21
  that boys and girls are educated, I guess and um, I think it
• 34:25
  creates it's going to create problems for both because even though girls are getting a
• 34:31
  better education here in the States, women get way more degrees, you know,
• 34:37
  men are more likely to drop out. Um, and people would say
• 34:40
  it's not only because of the way that we educate boys and the way that
• 34:45
  the curriculum is sort of oriented and how it is. Essentially the idea is,
• 34:51
  well, you know, because boys and girls are basically the same.
• 34:55
  If we you know, orient the education towards like the way the girls learn,
• 35:00
  the boys will pick it up and they're just not. But there's other
• 35:04
  issues as well. So with that said, I want to ask I saw
• 35:08
  you are. You did an interview with a guy. I'm sorry I can't
• 35:12
  remember the name of the channel, but he asked you what the top three
• 35:15
  men's issues were. And by the way, people I said in the beginning,
• 35:20
  because I call I titled it that you were a men's issues advocate and
• 35:22
  I didn't say men's rights advocate, but yeah, but I've never gone.
• 35:28
  But I want to explain why. It's not because I think men's rights activist
• 35:31
  is a bad word or a dirty word. It's not that at all.
• 35:36
  I would also call myself an issue's advocate. The reason is because the word
• 35:39
  rights. So I get hung up on words because I think that we use
• 35:45
  we play loose with them a lot, and so rights is very specific,
• 35:49
  and I think it's like a sub category of issues. A lot of the
• 35:52
  issues we're talking about don't really have anything to do with rights. There are
• 35:55
  things that are cultural, there things that are social. There are things that
• 35:58
  are maybe economic and relational, and so rights doesn't fit neatly into those categories.
• 36:06
  But we talk about rights as well as all those other things. Right.
• 36:09
  So that's why I use the word issues. And I say that because
• 36:13
  someone sent me a super chow that's what we call our super chests, to
• 36:19
  go directly to us. It's an anonymous person. They give us five dollars
• 36:22
  and they say it doesn't matter what we call ourselves. They hate the idea
• 36:24
  of men being treated with compassion. It's just a matter of time before they
• 36:28
  drag the term am I A through the mud. Well, I don't use
• 36:30
  the term am I A, which is men's issues advocate. I don't.
• 36:34
  I mean, I'm not even making that up. I'm just saying that I'm
• 36:37
  talking about this on a broader scale. Hope you guys understand what I mean.
• 36:39
  Because when you say rights, then what happens is people say, you
• 36:44
  know what rights, and then there are some but it's a short list,
• 36:47
  right, So I think to any number of doubts, who losing the children
• 36:52
  exactly like father's father's rights is father's rights, the right to body integra tape,
• 36:59
  which is made it by circumcision. It's just the basic to the right
• 37:02
  to equal protection, which is obviously violated by the Draft America. There are
• 37:07
  there are literal rights that men do not have that women do. Yeah.
• 37:12
  Yeah, but it's broader than that. At the same time, I feel
• 37:15
  like issues, I feel like that, I feel like I wonder if that
• 37:16
  to solve issues is it's well, it's issues with my postman. But I
• 37:22
  mean, I use it because some things are just not rights, but they're
• 37:29
  important, that's all, you know, Like things like um, the way
• 37:32
  that we the way that we cover crimes committed by men and committed against men.
• 37:40
  So, for example, if a woman pins a man down, drugs
• 37:45
  him or whatever, and assaults him sexually, we don't call it what it
• 37:50
  is, but when a man does it, we do. And because we
• 37:52
  don't call it what it is when a woman does it, it changes the
• 37:57
  data. This is why the data is not really reliable, because people will
• 38:00
  say, well, look at how often men, you know, commit this
• 38:02
  heinous crime, and but then I say, well, what about when women
• 38:06
  do it? Which is you know, they're pretty close actually in terms of
• 38:08
  the numbers, But because the definition is something else, we can't really look
• 38:13
  at it. And I think that that again, I think that's by design.
• 38:16
  But part of it is also because we generally do have less compassion for
• 38:21
  men. And I think it's like a it's like an evolved necessity, right
• 38:25
  like yeah, I mean yeah, yeah. So it's always a bit both,
• 38:30
  isn't it. Everything is always a bit of both. It's certainly there
• 38:32
  has to be some sort of biological foundation to why do we have less compassion
• 38:37
  for men, And a lot of that is it seems to be rooted in
• 38:39
  like reproductive value, but it always also I feel like it's also culturally enforced
• 38:45
  that men are just not as deserved as deserving us of compassion in the same
• 38:49
  way as women are. Yeah, we can have we can have more compassion
• 38:52
  for everyone, to be honest, but I feel like men are suffering a
• 38:55
  particular I agree with that compassion. I agree with that. Okay, So
• 39:00
  I just wanted to answer that that super child, Thank you, and I
• 39:05
  hope that you guys understand what I mean. So I want to talk about
• 39:08
  something else. This is like I think that when you start this journey of
• 39:14
  looking at men's issues and and and you're and you know it's it's important to
• 39:21
  note that examining men's issues benefits women as well. Like this is this is
• 39:25
  not, like I said, not a zero sum game. Obviously, this
• 39:29
  is gonna be good for everybody because you need men and women in a society.
• 39:31
  They're basically like the core of everything else, every law, every everything.
• 39:37
  It comes down to men and women. If we lose, if our
• 39:39
  government's collapse tomorrow, if the churches all burned down, if everything has gone,
• 39:44
  there's still men and women. That's that's what it comes down to.
• 39:46
  So um so then this is the thing that people must wrestle with Uh,
• 39:54
  I'm gonna ask you, and I know that you know this is a this
• 39:59
  is a a charged word, But what do you think, Well, what
• 40:06
  is feminism? I guess for you what is it? First? I mean,
• 40:13
  that's a very broad church, isn't it. I mean there's a lot
• 40:15
  of different things, a lot of different people. It changes over time and
• 40:17
  in different parts of the world, and in there's different types of groups.
• 40:22
  Is like, obviously there's conservative feminism and liberal feminism and moderate feminism and like
• 40:28
  marksist feminism. I mean there is no single word. I mean, is
• 40:31
  there is there anything that unites all feminisms, like one thing that's sort of
• 40:37
  like, is at least consistent throughout. I don't believe you can be a
• 40:42
  feminist about believing in patriarchy theory because otherwise about patriarchy theory being attached to your
• 40:45
  beliefs, I don't really know what feminist is. Like the vast majority of
• 40:50
  the population want totally quality of sexes. But the usp of feminism is surely
• 40:55
  patriarchy theory surround it and order surrounding theories are around that. Yeah, that's
• 41:00
  why it pisses me off. Whenever you criticize feminism. You get accused of
• 41:05
  being anti women's rights and it's like, no, no, no, no,
• 41:07
  I'm totally for women's rights totally, and nowise an anti women like people
• 41:12
  seem to conflate feminism with women, Yes they do. Feminism is a distinct
• 41:16
  political movement. Women is a type of person we can criticize. We can
• 41:21
  criticize the ideas of a political movement all day, and we should, and
• 41:23
  there's a lot to be criticized, but that doesn't mean we're attacking women as
• 41:27
  a group, Like women are no more deserving of being attacked than men.
• 41:30
  So I really it pisses me off, and I feel like people do on
• 41:34
  purpose. They use their gender as some sort of like morality shield to stop
• 41:37
  feminism from receiving the scrutiny deserves. They're like, you're attacking women, and
• 41:42
  I'm like, stop doing that. That's so cowardly. And I would say,
• 41:46
  yeah, you can absolutely be a women's rights advocate as I am and
• 41:50
  not be a feminist. In fact, most people that agree. In the
• 41:52
  UK, it's an eighty one percent of the population believe in totally total quality
• 41:58
  of sexes, which is quite low, and then only only about twenty one
• 42:02
  twenty percent of feminists. So most people that believe in equality of sexes are
• 42:07
  not therapists. Are not that feminists or therapists. And again, I feel
• 42:13
  like it's a dishonest thing to conflate feminism of being believing in equality. They
• 42:17
  have that people like Emma Emma Watson saying that if you believe in equality,
• 42:21
  you are a feminist, and it's you're not. Yeah, And then you
• 42:22
  have like Annie, who was it, I've got a name, Annie.
• 42:27
  Something of a was like, you're either a feminist or misogynists. Oh yeah,
• 42:30
  yeah, yeah, Well you know, okay, so you're hitting on
• 42:35
  the core thing. So no matter what flavor of the thirty one flavors of
• 42:39
  feminism you choose to subscribe to, you have to believe in patriarchy because that
• 42:45
  is the that is like, you know, if there's like a single foundation
• 42:50
  that feminism is built on, it's this idea of patriarchy. Am I Do
• 42:52
  you disagree or agree with that? No? I think that's something I mean,
• 42:55
  I guess I think that's true because about that theory. I don't know
• 43:00
  what the movement's even about over them, like a general generalized women's movement,
• 43:05
  but one of the things I learned about Erin Pitsie, for example, is
• 43:07
  that she was an ardent women's rights advocate, was right from the start,
• 43:13
  like extremely pro choice, extremely against her a man having to sign like certifficates
• 43:17
  for his wife to open a bank account. She talks with huge compassionate and
• 43:22
  personal experience about the need for women's movement. But she was never a feminist,
• 43:27
  never, never, never, And she's not an ex feminist. She
• 43:29
  was never a feminist, And actually I got on, yeah, I'm saying
• 43:32
  that, yeah, but she was an extremely progressive women's rights advocate, and
• 43:37
  she was like pro choice in a time where it was unpopular. And she's
• 43:42
  religious and no one could ever question her love of women and her and her
• 43:47
  need and her drive to protect women. But she was never a feminist.
• 43:52
  And I guess she's an MRA now. So it's like, how do you
• 43:53
  deal with the fact that the first refuge in the world was opened by an
• 43:58
  Mray's kind of yeah, dum dumbing thing to say it is, but it
• 44:02
  does. Aaron Pitzy's story does expose a lot about the movement. But okay,
• 44:09
  so let me give you the death Well the definition I use for patriarchy
• 44:15
  because I need it to be kind of straightforward, okay, And this is
• 44:17
  the way that it's always defined. Okay. So patriarchy is the idea that
• 44:22
  throughout history men have basically run everything. Right there, So they they they
• 44:30
  dominated women, they oppressed women, or they at least were women were subservient
• 44:35
  to men, and men build society right at to the benefit of men and
• 44:40
  at the expense of women. Is how they define it. This is how
• 44:44
  I've seen it everywhere. Okay. So so then we have to ask,
• 44:47
  because this is all feminisms fall into it. I don't care if it's intersectional.
• 44:52
  I don't care if it's second wave, first wave suffragette proto feminism,
• 44:55
  like even before we called it feminism, the same kind of behavior or believe
• 45:00
  system. So if it is the case that throughout most of human history,
• 45:05
  if not all, because some people would argue, we still live under a
• 45:07
  patriarchy, men have built society to the benefit of men and at the expense
• 45:14
  of women. When did that end or did it? How long ago do
• 45:21
  you think me? How do you think how long ago do you think men
• 45:24
  like owned or ran a society at the expense of women, and did the
• 45:29
  benefit of themselves. I mean, so I can't honestly ask expect me to
• 45:35
  answer that well, I mean I don't. I don't know, but you
• 45:37
  might agree, because, like I think, the big question is that why
• 45:42
  were I mean, I think women were suppressed. I think women were excluded
• 45:45
  from the workplace. I feel like men were centered and men's needs were lifted
• 45:49
  up historically speaking. But my channel isn't a history lesson. And sure it's
• 45:54
  also important to work out why that happened. And I don't think it's because
• 45:59
  men are like aging in some sort of group malevolent behavior to suppress and women.
• 46:04
  I just feel like if you actually go back in time to a pre
• 46:07
  industrial world where work wasn't me sitting sitting here typing away with my supple hands,
• 46:13
  it was your plowing fields who had done minds you were going to war.
• 46:16
  Like the barriers for being able to work are very physical, high stam
• 46:21
  on the jobs, and men were just more geared to do that, to
• 46:23
  like to do the farming, to work the fields and women. And again
• 46:28
  it's the simper time where women didn't have access to be put to control.
• 46:30
  They were expected to have, you know, six or seven children for child
• 46:35
  to even make it past its fifth birthday was a flip of a coin like
• 46:37
  fifty fifty, and he had to educate those kids, had to cook for
• 46:40
  those kids. There are no white goods, there are no ovens. There
• 46:43
  was enough nothing like woman. A woman's day was doing that a man who
• 46:46
  was out in the field and she was there. And like since the pill,
• 46:51
  since the industry revolution, since white goods became like common in domestic space,
• 46:54
  like that is what liberated women and men like forget about feminism those things.
• 47:00
  Well, but I think it's I think it's important that we recognize because
• 47:05
  what you're basically saying is it was bad for everybody. Well, I wouldn't
• 47:07
  even say it was. If you if you got into a time machine and
• 47:10
  went back to those years and you asked them if it's bad for them,
• 47:14
  they probably would shrug and say, what are you talking about, because like
• 47:16
  that's just that wasn't even yeah, Like they would say, what do you
• 47:21
  mean it was bad? This is just life, right. Women would yes,
• 47:24
  they would tend to the home, they would raise the children. The
• 47:28
  um, I don't know when you say expected to have kids, I don't
• 47:30
  think men were saying you have to have kids. I think women wanted kids
• 47:34
  and men wanted to give them kids. I think it was an agreement,
• 47:37
  but they were always there was always that the occasional like man who didn't you
• 47:44
  know who's lived as a bachelor, and maybe they did, like Isaac Newton,
• 47:47
  they went and did something else. But there was also the occasional woman
• 47:51
  that went and did her own thing as well. I don't think there were
• 47:52
  ever restrictions. I mean, like the first uh, one of the first
• 47:59
  female property owners was a black woman in the United States in the eighteen hundreds,
• 48:04
  like while slavery was still going on, so this was These are things
• 48:07
  that sort of like shake up what we are led to believe about the way
• 48:13
  life was. And the reason why I think the understanding of the reason why,
• 48:17
  I think it's really important to understand what patriarchy theory suggests or says about
• 48:24
  the relationship between men and women throughout history and in the present, and if
• 48:29
  you can, if you throw it aside and simply look at the time period
• 48:32
  for what it actually was, which was men and women trying to survive every
• 48:37
  day, doing what was necessary, working together right, No, because there
• 48:43
  was no opposition, Like women did not hate men and men did not hate
• 48:46
  women, And I would argue that even now men don't hate women, and
• 48:52
  even feminist women don't really hate men. They they're just sort of like,
• 48:58
  you know, are taught to fear them and to be suspicious of them.
• 49:02
  But they don't. I don't think they want that, you know. Like,
• 49:07
  But but I believe that patriarchy theory is the reason why we have all
• 49:15
  of this, all of these problems with men, because as long as we
• 49:17
  believe that men are still on top, then men can't have problems. And
• 49:22
  when they do have problems, and you've said this yourself, what what do
• 49:25
  people do? They blame other men for men's problems, right, because well,
• 49:30
  it's patriarchy, so men, did we blame men? Like if you
• 49:34
  education, like whenever I talk about boys being behind, so often the answer
• 49:37
  is, well, boys should work harder, or if you look at like
• 49:39
  men's men dying earlier, it's like all men should go to the doctor,
• 49:44
  or men killing themselves and men should talk more, or like this man got
• 49:46
  stubbed to death? Oh who did it? Men? And it's just like
• 49:50
  god, yeah you really, well yeah, lacking any sort of common sense
• 49:53
  or compassion, absolutely, we don't they really wait, it works. It's
• 49:57
  like with women, when a woman has an issue, we look at how
• 50:00
  we change society, which is the correct thing to do. But when it's
• 50:02
  men, it's like, well, how can men change themselves? And it's
• 50:06
  just again another misbalance. And I mean, going back to patriarchy. It's
• 50:09
  frustrating because often when I talked to someone about patriarchy, they are often talk
• 50:15
  about the same things what I'm speaking about. But I just call him gender
• 50:17
  norms, and I just wish instead of using the word patriarchy, used the
• 50:22
  word gender norms, and suddenly we're a lot more on the same page.
• 50:24
  Like patriarchy as an actual word, patriotarchy means father ruler, that ruler,
• 50:30
  the father's father, dominator, and like, don't I don't think a father
• 50:35
  is a ruler in any capacity. I don't think they ever were. I
• 50:38
  don't speak to a father in family court, if any kind of ruler of
• 50:44
  anything. I don't. I don't think. Yeah, I don't think they
• 50:46
  ever were. I don't even think they are in any part of the world.
• 50:49
  I think that we are. We have been conditioned to think of it
• 50:53
  that way. But I think that the relationship between a husband and a wife
• 50:57
  has always been like you know, uh, I don't know the captain of
• 51:01
  a ship and a navigator or their or their first mate or something like it.
• 51:05
  It doesn't mean the man, you know, can like decide the I
• 51:09
  don't know whether a woman lives or dies like every day, I think it
• 51:13
  they work together like that. You can look at stories of you know,
• 51:16
  old stories of women whose husbands die in war or working or whatever, and
• 51:22
  they take over the business and they do it because it's in honor of the
• 51:27
  family that they have they have built. Right. Um. I think that's
• 51:30
  also what patriarchy is supposed to mean. I mean, feminists have made it
• 51:35
  into this this thing about men ruling over women, but it's really just a
• 51:38
  woman like the man's name you know, is carried on, right, That's
• 51:43
  why a woman would take a man's name when they get married. Um.
• 51:46
  But it doesn't mean the man is better or anything like that. It's just
• 51:50
  like, um, you could even look at it like a small reward for
• 51:54
  them, you know, for for taking a woman into your home as your
• 52:00
  wife and starting a family with that woman. And again I'm not I'm not
• 52:05
  necessarily calling for a return to some you know, like uh, like old
• 52:09
  school whatever, because I know that's not for everybody, but but to act
• 52:14
  as though it was evil, I think that's the problem because then people will
• 52:19
  go too far the other way. I mean, I'm sorry, I we
• 52:22
  got a little off track. What what what do you want to say to
• 52:25
  that, because I feel like I'm well, I mean, I just think
• 52:28
  it's difficult because I live in the UK and I live in twenty twenty three.
• 52:32
  I don't know. I can't comment on what's happening one hundred years ago,
• 52:36
  and I can't comment what's happening across the other side of the world.
• 52:37
  Like, I feel like there are serious issues and you could describe them as
• 52:43
  patriarchy. Never parts of the world and in the parts of time, I'd
• 52:45
  be a lot more waiting to have that conversation than the one here in the
• 52:49
  UK, where I don't think that's irrelevant, right right, Well, And
• 52:52
  I just feel like I don't I alwas say, like going back to my
• 52:53
  experience in the cup industry, it's like these words they're so spooky sounding,
• 52:58
  like scary, pay the patriarchy, even like the mannisphere of toxic masculinity.
• 53:05
  I'm like, look, we are grown ups. We are grown ups.
• 53:07
  And that the patriarchy theory is sixty years old now and since then we have
• 53:12
  developed like economic psychology, like amazing like studies and where we can actually have
• 53:17
  real academic scientific discussions without these words that are meaningless and scary sounding. And
• 53:25
  that's the problem with patriarchy theory in terms of the way it's presented, as
• 53:29
  it has so many different definitions one you've said, I've said in there's many
• 53:32
  more between, and it has a laws of order aniability to it where handy
• 53:43
  right, I mean yeah, it's like, well it has this thing called
• 53:45
  modern Bailey fallacy where someone's like, we live in a patriarchy and you're like,
• 53:49
  well, prove it, and then they'll say there are more male MP's,
• 53:53
  more more menum positions to power, and I'm like, actually, that's
• 53:57
  not the same. Though that is a is a very reasonable observation, not
• 54:00
  really can't disagree with if I don't think, but that's not the same as
• 54:04
  we live in a patriarchy, which is like a tyrannical press a class of
• 54:07
  men, which is not the same as they're being more MPs in Westminster.
• 54:12
  Well, there's not the same arguments and they can't be swapped out, and
• 54:15
  the thing is what the reasonable argument called the mots that is used to progress
• 54:21
  the bailey. So every time you challenge a bailey, the MOT comes out,
• 54:24
  and then that's used to and it's like they're not the same arguments and
• 54:27
  we need to be like that is you've changed. I can make the case
• 54:30
  against the MP thing though, because this is also thrown at us, like
• 54:35
  there has never been a female president. Okay, first of all in the
• 54:37
  United States, and I bet this is true there too. Women make up
• 54:42
  the majority of the voters, so they decide who gets to be president or
• 54:45
  senator or congress person or whatever. Right they are the majority. Secondly,
• 54:51
  the job of an MP or a prime minister or a president is to serve
• 54:57
  the people, so they're not that that is not simply a position of power
• 55:00
  that they're supposed to enjoy for their own benefit. They are servants to us,
• 55:06
  right, So women vote for men who are going or whoever right they
• 55:13
  because there are women that run right. Um, So women will vote for
• 55:16
  the candidate that they think will serve their best interests. So if that candidate
• 55:21
  happens to be a man, I mean, like, does it matter that
• 55:23
  that, Like whether or not the person that is serving women is male or
• 55:28
  female because they're serving women. No, No, right, politicians have a
• 55:31
  mandate and that's what they are supposed to I mean supposed to, right,
• 55:35
  the genitools, I would I would argue that genitals are not as important as
• 55:39
  their policy. No, and I would say there's a lot of policy from
• 55:42
  women that because it means the interests of women. Yeah. I want to
• 55:46
  go back to, like an abortion like one of the key signatories, like
• 55:51
  governor of Alabama who's signed into law like the most devastating, pernicious anti abortion
• 55:58
  laws in history. She was a woman. I'm like, I don't and
• 56:01
  I still don't think that's relevant, Like she didn't sign it because she's a
• 56:04
  woman. Well, most pro life activists are women, So I mean like
• 56:08
  that again, I mean it changes every year some year, Yeah, but
• 56:13
  they are well generally men are not allowed to have be a part of the
• 56:16
  conversation anyway, so it is really just women versus women on that right.
• 56:21
  So um, and and yes, you're right, I mean that I was
• 56:23
  just going to mention if there is a woman we're not allowed to say until
• 56:27
  right, yeah, where are the where are the men? And told me
• 56:31
  the opinion. Right now, You're like, where's the men speaking up?
• 56:35
  I'm like, obviously I'm going to speak up. I am pro pro choice.
• 56:37
  But one time I told no, you just no opinion, and then
• 56:42
  the next ti I'm saying, where the hell are men? Why are they
• 56:44
  being so quiet? Why are you not advocating? And I'm just like Jesus
• 56:46
  factors that you said, men and women in America, the average man not
• 56:50
  figuring about MP's the average man and woman industry in America have very similar opinions
• 56:54
  on abortion, very similar. The differences are based on religion, age,
• 56:59
  and politics. It's nothing to do with gender. Same in Europe. And
• 57:01
  it's like, but the only thing is by if feminism figured us out,
• 57:05
  they might actually get some change. But by endlessly dividing pro choice by gender
• 57:10
  and blaming men, you're actually cutting in half your support, Like half of
• 57:15
  pro choices are men, and by constantly blaming men, it just used alienating
• 57:20
  your own support group, including yeah, yeah, including me. I am.
• 57:22
  I am pro choice. I'm happy to be pro choice, and I
• 57:27
  do feel alienated by the rhetoric. He's stupid signs that held up no,
• 57:31
  like my so called lack of you to us, and it's like it's,
• 57:36
  well, it's obviously a silly way to like exclude people, but it's not
• 57:39
  lament for children. Yeah it is. But I think the assumption that they
• 57:44
  make is that men would not vote in women's best interests, so they should
• 57:49
  be excluded. That that's all it is. Because some men, some men
• 57:52
  are pro life, so that means all men must be pro life because it
• 57:55
  goes back to the patriarchy thing. That's why. This is why I think
• 57:59
  if you're not wrestling with that definition of patriarchy and you ignore the Martin Bailey
• 58:06
  tactic and you say, do you believe men have ever hated women? Because
• 58:10
  that's kind of what it comes down to, um, then and you can't.
• 58:15
  There's there's just no evidence for that. Like even when things were really
• 58:19
  bad, men would go to war and die in the trenches World War One
• 58:23
  and in World War Two and before that, right just so that they could
• 58:29
  protect their women and um. And that was what it was about. The
• 58:32
  same thing with the way that we construct a society. Every invention we made
• 58:37
  that made the life at home easier was done for women. It was like
• 58:43
  where women have to spend you know, twelve hours a day at the river,
• 58:47
  like cleaning clothes like on those you know those washboards, Well we're gonna
• 58:52
  invent the washing machine. Now they don't have to do I mean it was
• 58:54
  we literally made all kinds of things just for women's convenience, and yeah,
• 59:00
  some for men's convenience, so that you know, we can do these like
• 59:05
  energy jobs like drilling and whatnot easier, but even those are there to serve
• 59:09
  women. Like why do we have the internet and electricity and running water and
• 59:15
  you know, streets and cars and and everything else. Well, we're doing
• 59:17
  it because we want to make a We want to build a society that is
• 59:22
  a comfortable place to build families, and families need women, so we do
• 59:27
  this for women and children by extension. I just think, I mean,
• 59:31
  I just think if if we had a time machine and we could go back
• 59:35
  two hundred years from now and look at the life of a typical women and
• 59:37
  they look at the life of a typical man, I feel like you'd have
• 59:39
  a very hard choice on whose life you'd want to live more. But this
• 59:44
  is the man. He's going into a mind he may die. Yeah,
• 59:46
  he's you have to watch twelve Hours and that's his do he doesn't get a
• 59:50
  choice. He doesn't get a choice either. He's not like, nah,
• 59:52
  I'm gonna say home today. Yeah, of course I'm going to play video
• 59:57
  games. The woman has to have like half a dozen more care. It's
• 1:00:00
  just it again, like I said, cook for them, clean from educate
• 1:00:01
  them, no schools, And I'm like that's hard as well. They're both
• 1:00:06
  shit lives. Yes we could who had it more shit? But we need
• 1:00:08
  to acknoledge. Our lives and now are extremely privilege. All of those you
• 1:00:15
  me, everyone listened to this, like we are living in the time where
• 1:00:17
  we are at the north point. We're not one percent of the most privileged
• 1:00:21
  human beings ever to existed. Here we are squabbling. Yeah, our lives
• 1:00:25
  were easier than Louis the fourteenth. Like I mean, like, you know,
• 1:00:29
  monarchs of the past didn't have it as good as we do, so
• 1:00:31
  we should be in the world would not have had that. No, no,
• 1:00:36
  no, so we I mean, I'm all about being grateful, but
• 1:00:39
  but I guess like I think that, Um, well, we gotta we
• 1:00:43
  gotta go into the after show. So if if you want to stick around
• 1:00:45
  for that, yeah, yeah, yeah, it'd be great. I'm sorry,
• 1:00:49
  guys, I kind of like we we got talking. But I hope
• 1:00:52
  that you understand and you know, um, I guess take if you learned
• 1:00:58
  anything, or if you you're gonna follow up on things or whatever. I
• 1:01:01
  hope, Um, where I do have your link tree in the description than
• 1:01:07
  um, but where do you are you most sort of let's say, like
• 1:01:12
  active is it a YouTube channel? Is it a discord? Instagram? Okay,
• 1:01:15
  I don't know. I'm just trying to get that right. And I
• 1:01:17
  mean it's keep talking about getting off of it and go into platforms. But
• 1:01:21
  Instagram the tin men. Oh one word, yeah, tin men. I
• 1:01:25
  always want to get to YouTube more. But oh, it's just too many
• 1:01:31
  ideas, not enough time. Yeah, I understand. Instagram's my job.
• 1:01:36
  I'm good. I'm good on the fly. So I do a lot of
• 1:01:38
  live shit shows. So I like doing that. I like doing interviews honestly,
• 1:01:44
  Um, you know, And and I don't I don't actually talk to
• 1:01:46
  a lot of sort of people in the men's issue space or the gender space
• 1:01:52
  because um, I mean, we all have like the same like, we
• 1:01:57
  all have a lot of the same knowledge. So there is in a whole
• 1:02:00
  lot of new things to get to. But but it's always good to speak
• 1:02:05
  to people that have a les slightly different perspective or they're new to it.
• 1:02:07
  I mean, I've been trying to get like Chloe Roma on, but she's
• 1:02:10
  been like she's texting you, Oh okay. Well yeah, I mean like
• 1:02:15
  if you talk to her, ask her because I'd like to get her on.
• 1:02:17
  We have responded to some of her content in the past. Um,
• 1:02:22
  and I think, you know, it would be interesting if she's willing.
• 1:02:25
  But um, but a lot of times because I'm an artist and I loved
• 1:02:30
  stories and I think stories are very important, so I talk to people in
• 1:02:32
  that sort of creative space a lot. Um. Like last week, I
• 1:02:37
  think I had a guy named Eric July who's starting his own like comic book
• 1:02:39
  company, you know, and he sees a really cool dude. So it's
• 1:02:44
  really good to have you here. Um, check out the links in the
• 1:02:47
  description. Are you do you? Also? Is there a discord and there
• 1:02:51
  is a link Discord is all that you can get to from my Instagram.
• 1:02:54
  Yeah, so go go to the instagram and check it out. It's the
• 1:02:58
  link tree is in the description, and follow them on Twitter. And yeah,
• 1:03:01
  like we're gonna go into the patron show. Now I do have another
• 1:03:06
  superchow. No, thank you, thank you so much. I do have
• 1:03:08
  another supercow from an anonymous person for five dollars if you want. If you
• 1:03:13
  don't want me to know your name, then you can leave it like that.
• 1:03:16
  But if you did, but maybe you because I'm not really sure how
• 1:03:20
  this works, you could. There should be a space where you can enter
• 1:03:22
  your name if you want me to know who it is that's sending this message.
• 1:03:24
  But they said, I question those statistics and crime rates. How much
• 1:03:29
  higher would women's crime rates be if they were treated and viewed like men are
• 1:03:31
  by society, And what would men's crime rates look like if they were privileged
• 1:03:36
  and viewed like women are. The fact that men are this disenfranchise and aren't
• 1:03:40
  towering over women in crime rates raises my eyebrows. All right, thank you
• 1:03:45
  for that. Yeah, I mean it's that's a really good point. I
• 1:03:47
  mean it is is a really great article, an empathy cap about that,
• 1:03:51
  about how the criminal system is more biased in favor of women. Yeah,
• 1:03:55
  women get more lenient sentences and a more likely not to get any sort of
• 1:04:00
  prison sentence even with the same criminal record and the crime itself being the same
• 1:04:05
  I mean I could put up the dates and I can't think of it,
• 1:04:08
  but basically as states, and it's like, if women are treated the same
• 1:04:12
  as men, they would be like x up more in prison, or if
• 1:04:15
  men will treat like women would be this many fewer. We covered a story
• 1:04:18
  like yesterday because I do a new show every Tuesday, and then the story
• 1:04:24
  it was put out by The Guardian and they were talking about how women's incarceration
• 1:04:30
  rates had gone up, so more women are going to prison and that this
• 1:04:33
  was a problem because those women were not allowed to go onto internet forums and
• 1:04:40
  they wanted to essentially like get them on and they were advocating that women get
• 1:04:45
  more you know, sort of bonuses and privileges while in prison. Of course
• 1:04:49
  they weren't doing that for men. But it's like, I mean I think
• 1:04:51
  that I think that if you're if you go to jail or prison, there
• 1:04:57
  should be a path to you know, re enter society. Yeah, like
• 1:05:01
  a path of rehability if it's possible. But um, but the forums were
• 1:05:06
  specifically for recruiting, like for you know, sort of rad fem groups that
• 1:05:13
  it wasn't really about like women going and like becoming productive members of a society,
• 1:05:17
  which is a weird thing to advocate for, but that's what they were
• 1:05:19
  doing. I mean, this has happened before. Like if you remember Angela
• 1:05:23
  Davis, she was part of this radical feminist group from the nineteen eighties called
• 1:05:27
  the Weather Underground and they bombed the Capitol and the Well Davis. I don't
• 1:05:31
  know if she was in that, but that's happened. And she was in
• 1:05:35
  Cuba for a long time along with Tupac's mother and they now they're like,
• 1:05:42
  well, at least she is like back out and she's raking in all kinds
• 1:05:45
  of money for like these nonprofit causes, but ultimately she is a feminist and
• 1:05:53
  that's what is making her all the money. So um. But yeah,
• 1:05:57
  so I do think that it's it's straight, but there is definitely a I
• 1:06:01
  don't want to call it two tier justice system, but there's definitely some biases
• 1:06:05
  that we have to like shake. Well, it's possible to have this conversation
• 1:06:09
  about also talking about the intersection of race, where if you're a black man,
• 1:06:14
  then you're going to be paying the double penalty of being black and the
• 1:06:17
  man. When both those groups are giving higher sentences for the same crime.
• 1:06:21
  They compound together, and I think that goes a long way to explain why
• 1:06:27
  there is such a representation of black men in American prisons, because if you're
• 1:06:30
  a man, you get sixty three percent higher sentences for the same crime in
• 1:06:34
  America. If you're black, you get ten percent more. So if you're
• 1:06:38
  black man, it's six I guess you'd be like, obviously it doesn't work
• 1:06:41
  quite of this, but sixty three percent plus ten percent. So that's the
• 1:06:45
  penalty that black men pacer. I want to just put that out there where
• 1:06:48
  it is an issue that impacts I understand that I think essially impacts back man.
• 1:06:53
  Yeah, but I do believe that that's starting the story in the middle,
• 1:06:57
  because I think the real reason why men are even going to jail to
• 1:07:00
  begin with is because they are growing up in fatherless homes. Of men in
• 1:07:05
  prison don't know their father and their father's not involved in their life. And
• 1:07:10
  I think that if we don't address the issue of fatherlessness and fathers being involved
• 1:07:15
  with their children and the you know, all of the stuff that comes with
• 1:07:18
  that child custody and father's rights, etc. Then we're just going to have
• 1:07:21
  more of these other problems, and we don't want. We don't necessarily want
• 1:07:27
  to simply be more fair to male criminals. We just want fewer criminals.
• 1:07:32
  So I think the best way to do that is to try to like bring
• 1:07:38
  the father back into these people's lives and make sure that the men that our
• 1:07:43
  fathers are going to be good fathers. Right. I think that's the more
• 1:07:46
  important thing. There's a really interesting theory, I think it's called Donna Hue
• 1:07:55
  Live It theory, which looked at how legalized the bullsh for women in America
• 1:08:00
  led to a decreasing violent crime and generation later. So in America, a
• 1:08:05
  crime especially or was going up and up and up, and it got to
• 1:08:08
  the nineties and then people were terrified, and then it came down, and
• 1:08:12
  then it went from like three thousand murders a year to about seven hundred murders
• 1:08:15
  a year. And people couldn't work out why. There were lots of different
• 1:08:17
  theories. Is it policing, is it different laws and drugs, is it
• 1:08:20
  you know, the economy and one two economists came along and said, we
• 1:08:24
  think it might be the fact that women won the right and abortion the generation
• 1:08:27
  earlier. And their theory was that a woman who was able to have reput
• 1:08:31
  control was able to choose as and when she has a child, and therefore
• 1:08:35
  that decreases the amount of unwantedness. So fewer women having children they didn't want
• 1:08:42
  as the result of having rutu abortion, and those unwanted children were no longer
• 1:08:45
  growing up to become violent criminals in our lessons, So the idea is that
• 1:08:49
  um very controversial Donny hue Levitt theory. I think it is hypothesis and similar.
• 1:08:57
  Ultimately, that's the same as saying your motherhood leads to criminality the right.
• 1:09:02
  Yeah, yeah, it's the same thing. So I'm getting too,
• 1:09:04
  But now we need to knowing to give us a similar process where we give
• 1:09:09
  I think we should give fathers the right to opt in or out of their
• 1:09:12
  family too, And then I guess that's when you arrive at a voluntary print
• 1:09:15
  or surrender or pay p abortional everyone, all of it. But you're giving
• 1:09:19
  a father the same right to choose if and when he becomes a dad,
• 1:09:25
  and I feel like that, I feel like that's one of the solutions to
• 1:09:27
  fatherlessness because then you're allowing fathers to opt in and be a father when they
• 1:09:32
  want to. But yeah, one hundred percent I feel like, I mean,
• 1:09:36
  if there's one thing that's causing a lot of the issues we talk about,
• 1:09:40
  like suicide, addiction, homelessness, imprisonment, crime which impacts women as
• 1:09:44
  well, so many of these are leading back to, at least in part
• 1:09:47
  too, fatherlessness. Oh yeah, that's like that's like the tree trunk from
• 1:09:54
  which these branches come out. So I mean, I'm totally bored of that,
• 1:09:57
  and I feel Yeah, there's lots to say. I mean, I
• 1:09:59
  feel like we regularly deride and father's even on the media. As we do.
• 1:10:03
  We just think about the fathers that are heroes fifty years ago, like
• 1:10:06
  mister Rogers for example, Exit what a wonderful, wonderful man. And now
• 1:10:11
  what have you got Homo Simpson, Homo Simpson and Peter Griffin. How or
• 1:10:15
  there's just there or there's just no fathers at all, I think, yeah,
• 1:10:19
  or there's no fathers at all, so the ones at wants to be
• 1:10:23
  father's just helping them taken away. But yeah, family cool, yep.
• 1:10:27
  I mean we can get more into that, but we're gonna go into the
• 1:10:30
  Patron show now. So, um, I see that there are some new
• 1:10:32
  faces in our chat. Maybe you're maybe they're followers of you, welcome and
• 1:10:39
  I hope that yeah, but you'll be able to watch it afterwards. But
• 1:10:42
  I'm looking at the live chat right now. There are some new faces in
• 1:10:45
  there. So if you are, if you are here because George is here,
• 1:10:47
  then welcome to Honey Badger Radio. I hope that you subscribe and stick
• 1:10:51
  around. We do content all the time, and you know, sometimes we
• 1:10:56
  get a pretty spicy because I think that, like you know, being I
• 1:11:00
  guess polite has its advantages, but sometimes we just want to put out there
• 1:11:06
  what we really think. And I think that you have to be fearless,
• 1:11:09
  um, if you're going to address these things, because most people just don't
• 1:11:12
  want to hear it. Um. So yeah, go ahead. Obviously,
• 1:11:16
  there's a lot of popular politics going on. A lot of people, like
• 1:11:19
  I said, where politics as some sort of fashion accessory and they're not willing
• 1:11:24
  to like get muddy, getting the getting the ship and roll around with me.
• 1:11:28
  Yeah, they rather just look good. And I'd say it's better to
• 1:11:31
  be right than it is to be popular, even if it makes you unpopular.
• 1:11:35
  So yes, here's to that hopefully as it has you. But well
• 1:11:42
  we haven't been banned yet, but maybe it's because we're beneath their notice,
• 1:11:45
  so we're kind of small, but thanks for well, thanks everyone that's come
• 1:11:48
  across and the Tin Men. Yeah, Honey Badge your radio, please subscribe
• 1:11:54
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• 1:12:00
  up, the live shows. But we also have a main channel just call
• 1:12:03
  Honey Badger Radio. That's where you saw the animation. So there are two
• 1:12:09
  channels. Yeah, I know, and we also are on Twitter at Honey
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• 1:12:29
  thank you George so much for coming on the show. Stick around for the
• 1:12:30
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• 1:12:49
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• 1:12:53
  talk to you all in the next video.