Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1010 - The Behaviour Curriculum With Susie O'Brien

Transcript

#1010 - The Behaviour Curriculum With Susie O'Brien · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Good day. This is doctor Justin Colson. So glad
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  Speaker 2: that you've joined me for a conversation today with Susie O'Brien.
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  Speaker 2: Susie is an author of parenting books, also a reporter
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  Speaker 2: for The Herald Sun and a range of other publications,
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  Speaker 2: mainly writing about education stuff and parenting stuff. I always
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  Speaker 2: enjoy chatting with Susie and always enjoy her insights when
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  Speaker 2: she writes. Recently, Susie published a piece that really caught
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  Speaker 2: my attention. She's going to join me now to discuss
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  Speaker 2: what's happening in schools when it comes to kids, the
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  Speaker 2: curriculum and challenging behavior. Susie, Welcome to the Happy Family Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you tell us about this new story that has
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  Speaker 2: hit the papers and what it means for families.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's quite fascinating, Justin, because last year the OECD
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  Speaker 1: Education Body came out and found that they were assessing
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  Speaker 1: the way fifteen year olds behaving schools and we found
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  Speaker 1: that Australia came thirty third out of thirty seven countries globally.
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  Speaker 1: You think, how can we and educated democracy have worse
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  Speaker 1: behavior in classrooms than a whole heap of other countries.
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  Speaker 1: So this sparked a Senate inquiry and one of the
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  Speaker 1: things coming out of that Senate inquiry was the suggestion
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  Speaker 1: that we need to go back to basics and teach
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  Speaker 1: kids in school how to behave.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is a federal Senate inquiry. The Commonwealth
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  Speaker 2: looked at it and said thirty three out of thirty
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  Speaker 2: seven looks pretty ugly. And the feedback from teachers. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I'm in and out of schools almost every day and
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  Speaker 2: teachers I hear horror stories. I'm not going to share
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  Speaker 2: them on the podcast right now, but the the kind
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  Speaker 2: of stories though that most parents, if they knew that
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  Speaker 2: this was happening, they would well, I'll just put it out.
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  Speaker 2: They probably wouldn't want to send them to school. The
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  Speaker 2: stuff that goes on in Australian schools is literally and
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  Speaker 2: unquestionably shocking, not at every school, but at many schools,
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  Speaker 2: too many schools, and to rank thirty thirty three out
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  Speaker 2: of thirty seven is terrible. So okay, we've got the
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  Speaker 2: federal government has an inquiry and says we need to
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  Speaker 2: go back to basics. What does back to basics mean
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  Speaker 2: when it comes to behavior at school?
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  Speaker 1: Well, they had a look at what's happened in other
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  Speaker 1: countries and the UK is really leading the way, and
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  Speaker 1: the UK bought in something called a behavior curriculum.
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  Speaker 2: I might just jump in before you talk about UK's
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  Speaker 2: behavior curriculum because the United Kingdom has been known for
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  Speaker 2: decades to be a terrifying place to be a teacher, Like,
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  Speaker 2: schools don't feel safe in the UK, right, This is
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  Speaker 2: a well known stereotype, right.
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  Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that they did a couple
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  Speaker 1: of years ago is putting something called the Behavior Curriculum,
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  Speaker 1: which is basically teaching behavior and respect and basic manners
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  Speaker 1: to children in the same way as you teach reading, writing,
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  Speaker 1: and arithmetic. So it's not assuming. So that basically all
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  Speaker 1: the experts are saying, no longer can we assume that
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  Speaker 1: kids come to school knowing how to behave, And no
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  Speaker 1: longer can we assume that teachers come to the classroom
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  Speaker 1: knowing how to teach behavior, knowing how to manage behavior.
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  Speaker 1: So there's two issues that teachers don't know what to
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  Speaker 1: do and the kids don't know what to do. So
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  Speaker 1: two of the things that came out of this Senate
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  Speaker 1: inquiry was looking at curriculum materials to help schools and
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  Speaker 1: to help teachers manage behavior in class. And one of
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  Speaker 1: the biggest things is from the beginning of the school year,
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  Speaker 1: from the beginning of prep, day one, foundation, whatever you
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  Speaker 1: call it, setting out the expectations in a very very
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  Speaker 1: clear way. So teachers tell kids and they practice it,
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  Speaker 1: and they drill it, and they go through it exactly
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  Speaker 1: how they need to behave what are the expectations on them?
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  Speaker 1: Because we're finding this is what all the experts are saying,
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  Speaker 1: kids don't know and teachers don't know.
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  Speaker 2: Susie, you're not necessarily advocating for this, you're simply reporting
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  Speaker 2: on it. So I'm not asking you to defend this decision.
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  Speaker 2: I want to bounce something off you though that I
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  Speaker 2: struggle with. There's a tension that I feel when I
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  Speaker 2: hear you saying this, Well, there are two things. First
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  Speaker 2: of all, good like getting a year nine student or
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  Speaker 2: a year eleven student to buy into this like they've
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  Speaker 2: had eight, nine, ten or eleven years of not having
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  Speaker 2: this kind of structure. That's just presenting a really big challenge.
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  Speaker 2: It really has to start at the beginning and be
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  Speaker 2: rolled out in the junior years, and those kids have
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  Speaker 2: to get used to it and bring it along and
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  Speaker 2: recreate the culture. But secondly, my experience has been that
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  Speaker 2: most teachers do this anyway. Most teachers are aware quite
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  Speaker 2: explicitly of what they expect of children, pretty good at
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  Speaker 2: letting them know exactly what they expect of students. They
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  Speaker 2: often have rules at the front of the room. The
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  Speaker 2: students have voice in developing those rules. When you're describing
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  Speaker 2: this to me, and again, I know you're not the
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  Speaker 2: architect of it, But what's different about what teachers are
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  Speaker 2: typically doing to what this curriculum is going to require
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  Speaker 2: of them?
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  Speaker 1: I think the biggest difference is that it's setting it
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  Speaker 1: a school wide standard, and it's up to each school
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  Speaker 1: to set what their standard is. But kids are going
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  Speaker 1: from class to class and teacher to teach a year
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  Speaker 1: to year not quite knowing what the exact expectations are.
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  Speaker 1: And so I think there is also a feeling amongst
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  Speaker 1: some teachers that there is so much emphasis these days
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  Speaker 1: on the individual and the need for people to express
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  Speaker 1: their individuality and so on, and the rights of the
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  Speaker 1: individual student, that the right that that has come before
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  Speaker 1: the rights of the group, and so what some teachers
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  Speaker 1: are saying, and as you put out, all teachers will
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  Speaker 1: be behind this, is that they want to get the
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  Speaker 1: focus back on the group and they want to ensure
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  Speaker 1: that there is room for kids with special needs or
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  Speaker 1: whatever like. It's not just a kind of blunt instrument,
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  Speaker 1: but that they start moving away from this focus on
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  Speaker 1: every individual and looking at the group as a whole
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  Speaker 1: and how they can work better together.
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  Speaker 2: As you've spoken with educators around the country about this, cuzy,
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  Speaker 2: is there enthusiasm for it? They rolling their eyes and saying,
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  Speaker 2: here we go another new program. How's the general response
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  Speaker 2: been from those that you've spoken with.
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  Speaker 1: I think a lot of teachers say, help USS get
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  Speaker 1: control back in their classrooms. They are so exhausted. They
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  Speaker 1: don't feel supported by parents. They often don't feel supported
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  Speaker 1: by their principles. They feel that they're at war with
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  Speaker 1: their kids half the time, you know, in the classroom,
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  Speaker 1: and what they want is better support. And this is
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  Speaker 1: a way to give them one form of support where
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  Speaker 1: the school sits down with every parent, every group of
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  Speaker 1: kids at the beginning of the year and they set
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  Speaker 1: out what those expectations are. So that the teachers are
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  Speaker 1: not reinventing the wheel every single class and telling kids
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  Speaker 1: what the rules are in this particular classroom, so that
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  Speaker 1: the work, some of that work has already done by
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  Speaker 1: the time the kids arrived. And you know what, teachers
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  Speaker 1: are voting with their feet. I guess you could say
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  Speaker 1: they're deserting the profession in droves. They don't want to
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  Speaker 1: be teachers. They didn't sign up to be teachers for
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  Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. What they want is a calm
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  Speaker 1: classroom that's conducive to learning. They don't want to be
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  Speaker 1: spending two thirds of their time telling kids off.
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  Speaker 2: Is there any international evidence to support this? I mean,
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  Speaker 2: you've indicated that the UK is working on it and
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  Speaker 2: seems to be making some progress. What do we know
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  Speaker 2: about that and is there anything else that we can
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  Speaker 2: lean on here or is the government just running at
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  Speaker 2: this and saying we need to do something. This looks
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  Speaker 2: good enough for now. Where are we in terms of evidence?
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  Speaker 1: Well, they have been drawing quite closely on some of
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  Speaker 1: the work from the UK and Professor Tom Robinson I
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  Speaker 1: believe his name is, it's really sort of the pioneer
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  Speaker 1: in this area, and they have found some remarkable results,
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  Speaker 1: particularly in schools with a high disadvantage population, schools that
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  Speaker 1: in some ways are the most chaotic because often kids
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  Speaker 1: are coming to class with a whole heap of other
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  Speaker 1: stuff going on in their own lives, and they're not
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  Speaker 1: necessarily set up just to prioritize their learning. And I
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  Speaker 1: think there is this assumption that somehow kids won't like this,
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  Speaker 1: they'll see it as too punitive or too harsh. But
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  Speaker 1: if you think about it, a lot of the time
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  Speaker 1: kids like certainty. They like knowing what they're expected to
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  Speaker 1: do well.
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  Speaker 2: And you can have rules without note. You can have
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  Speaker 2: rules without being punitive. You can have rules without being harsh.
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  Speaker 2: You can just these are the rules. And when you
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  Speaker 2: draw that bright line, the kids know what the expectations are.
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  Speaker 2: Research shows pretty clearly that children thrive when they understand
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  Speaker 2: their expectations, and when we have high expectations, even with
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  Speaker 2: kids who are neurodiversion. This isn't rocket surgery, I don't think.
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  Speaker 2: Having said that, I was reading the article City and
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  Speaker 2: it indicated things like getting kids to line up before class,
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  Speaker 2: standing up when somebody enters the room, or pushing their
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  Speaker 2: chairs in. I mean, this stuff sounds especially for primary school.
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  Speaker 2: It sounds really basic. Do the political leaders, do the
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  Speaker 2: education gurus really think that getting kids to line up
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  Speaker 2: in two straight lines outside of a classroom is going
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  Speaker 2: to move the needle.
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  Speaker 1: I think that this is one of the things that
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  Speaker 1: they've found in the UK, that these sorts of things
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  Speaker 1: have moved the needle because it is changing the way
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  Speaker 1: that kids are behaving in the classroom and outside of
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  Speaker 1: the classroom, because it's not just all about them doing
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  Speaker 1: whatever they want whenever they want to do it. It's actually
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  Speaker 1: about them becoming subserving and could you say to the group,
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  Speaker 1: to the group dynamic. And there has been a lot
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  Speaker 1: of pushback from certain parents who say, don't treat my
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  Speaker 1: kid like a convict or don't treat my kid like
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  Speaker 1: a prisoner while they're lining up, But again you go
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  Speaker 1: back to the way, you know, little preppies on the
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  Speaker 1: first week. Often the teachers are relying on those sorts
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  Speaker 1: of basic things because they need to sort of show
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  Speaker 1: the kids that this is a very different place. You
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  Speaker 1: can't behave like you do at home, and so that
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  Speaker 1: these rules are sort of brought in. I think a
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  Speaker 1: lot of teachers and kids are just crying out for
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  Speaker 1: calm that they're sick.
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  Speaker 2: Of the chaos, a sense that regardless of what happens here, Susie,
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  Speaker 2: there's going to be phenomenal change over the next decade
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  Speaker 2: in education. This is obviously part of it, whether it's
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  Speaker 2: regressive or progressive. Time will tell thank you for doing
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  Speaker 2: the journalism you do, Thanks for sharing this or as
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  Speaker 2: your share, and thanks for filling us in on this
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  Speaker 2: new update that we'll roll out across Australian schools beginning
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, certainly, Way and New South Wales have already started
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  Speaker 1: implementing some of these curriculum materials and a little bit
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  Speaker 1: up to the individual schools to see how they use
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  Speaker 1: it and what they want to do, and this will
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  Speaker 1: continue in other states throughout this year, so we certainly
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  Speaker 1: should see some differences from the startup next year.
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  Speaker 2: Suzi O'Brian, author journalists for The Herald Sign and a
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  Speaker 2: range of other publications. Absolute delight to have you on
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  Speaker 2: the podcast again. Thanks for generously sharing your time and
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  Speaker 2: filling us in anytime.
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  Speaker 1: Justin thank you.
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  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: would like more information about this story, we will link
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: to it in the show notes. And for more information
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: about making you family happier helping them to thrive, please
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: visit us at happy families dot com dot au