Latest / Petty and Unbothered / # 19 - A Petty Betty Rivalry
Transcript
- Robin Axline: Hello and welcome to Petty and Unbothered. This is Robin and Laura, what's Tita Lors: Watch out up! Robin Axline: up? How's your heart today, Laura? Tita Lors: Sorry, I just bit into a cracker. Robin Axline: I just bit into some cheese. Tita Lors: How is my heart today? It is... So I've been in recovery from being sick because having children, there's test pools for bacteria. Especially if they go to school or daycare or whatever. Yes, they're little pee-pee dishes. It's gross. Yeah, so I've been recovering and I've been I got a watch that Google watch or whatever and it keeps telling me that I'm stressed out because my heart rate is so much higher than it usually is because I'm having a hard time breathing. Yeah, that's usually what I don't like being sick because when I get sick it ends up turning into like a respiratory thing every single time. So now my watch thinks that I'm stressed out all the time because mostly because I can't breathe and my heart rate is increasing. So my heart is stressed. Yeah, my little heart is stressed. Robin Axline: Your literal part, yeah. Yeah. Aw. Tita Lors: But I think I'm like, I'm in a really feel good place. We just finished that recording. ended up so it ended in a really great heartfelt place, I think, for me. So I'm still riding the high of that. Yeah. And we we've taken a break because, know, I lost my dog, I got sick, taxes, my God. I know it comes in three. So that's three things. Hopefully that's it, right? And I'm just happy to get back into the swing of things with you and recording again. Yay! Robin Axline: Yeah, me too. I'm like really, really stoked on it because I was really missing our little ritual of recording and chatting Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: and all that good stuff. Tita Lors: Yeah, same. I would get like midweek midway through the week and be like, I'm just gonna text her randomly. I have nothing to say, but. Robin Axline: Yeah, no, I feel you. I experienced the same. So I think I might have said something Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: just random to you as well. Tita Lors: Yeah, just as some kind of interaction. But yeah, I'm good. Except I guess there's something in my eye, which is why I keep messing with it. Yeah, we're good. I think it's gone. Robin Axline: Okay, cool, cool, Yeah, so, Tita Lors: How are you? How's your heart? Sorry, didn't even ask you. Robin Axline: it's all good, all good. My heart's good. I'm still riding that high as well from the positivity that was just radiating from the podcast, our last one. And so I'm feeling Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: good about that. The sun is out, which is great. The weather's been so peculiar lately, so. Tita Lors: yeah. Yes. Has it been like super hot and then like storming? Yeah. It's weird. Robin Axline: Yes. Yeah. There was actually like little snowflakes this weekend too. Tita Lors: No way. Robin Axline: Yeah. Like when, so I went to Montreal, which I'm speaking of riding a high and I'll, I'll have more stories about that. But I was there from Thursday Tita Lors: Yes. Yes. Robin Axline: to Monday and it snowed there a little bit and rained. Yeah. And then when I got Tita Lors: Wow. It's like almost May and it's still snowing. Robin Axline: I know, right? Yeah, there was this this really light blanket of white. It was just so random. And then when I returned to the city, there was like little snowflakes on the way home. So it was just bizarro. Yeah. Tita Lors: It seriously is. Robin Axline: But yeah, my heart's good. Happy to be back in the studio with you. Tita Lors: EEE Robin Axline: Yeah, and I am happy that I ate so much poutine while I was in Montreal and I got to practice some of my French, which was fun. Tita Lors: fun, is it put in like made out of like meat, pork, stuff? Robin Axline: Yes, but I purposefully did research. Yeah, it's like a, well, it's like a beef or pork Tita Lors: okay. Robin Axline: or whatever gravy, a meat gravy. Tita Lors: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Robin Axline: I found quite a few places that had veggie options. Tita Lors: okay, that's cool. Mm-hmm. You lost me at olives, but yeah. Robin Axline: The olives aren't for everybody, I suppose. Tita Lors: You Robin Axline: But yeah, no, I just said Tita Lors: you Robin Axline: give me the veggie special or whatever and it was that. And I also Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: just had a classic version as well. So lots Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: of fries, cheese, and gravy. Vegetarian, of course. Yeah. Tita Lors: Yum. Yeah. Robin Axline: So good. And now I'm like detoxing from that. That's kind of a lot, but yeah, Tita Lors: I Your body. Yeah. Robin Axline: so I'm thinking about all the yummy food that I ate. I went to the two rival bagel places. Tita Lors: How did they compare to New York bagels? Robin Axline: They're very, very different. super like, they're lot thinner. They're a little dense in quality and Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: they have kind of like a, actually a rewind. So I've been to the two rival spots in past visits, but this one I just went to the Fairmont Bagel Place and it had like a little bit of like a honey taste to it. Tita Lors: Ooh, okay. Robin Axline: little sweet. Yeah, it's it's it's delicious. It's just different. And Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: they're not even like the kind of place that smears a bunch of cream cheese on it. Like if you want cream cheese, they'll give you like a packet like this small and then you have to like do it yourself with a plastic knife. It's Tita Lors: No! Robin Axline: kind of like not ideal, but you have to kind of like Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. It's like Philadelphia cream cheese. Robin Axline: It is. Yeah. And then you have to like rip the bagel in half and like do it yourself. It's just kind of like not not Tita Lors: no... Robin Axline: the best situation, but overall, of course, I enjoyed it. So good stuff. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm actually so excited for, um, we're, I've been complaining because there's not like good bagel places here. Um, we're at least not where I'm at. Or you have to drive, Anyways, so we're getting, I think it's not your mother's bagels or call your mother bagels or something, which is like Jewish bagels. And I hear a lot of really good things and they're comparable to like New York bagels and it's gonna be right across the street and the plaza across the street for me and I cannot wait to finally have bagels. Me too! Robin Axline: They're good. Yeah. How convenient. Tita Lors: So that'll be that'll be in my future soon, allegedly come the summer, in the next few months here for me as we're recording. It should be here! Robin Axline: Yay! I was gonna say could mail you some too, but if worse came to worse. I Tita Lors: Ooh! Yes. Robin Axline: totally could though. Yeah. so yeah, Tita Lors: That would be so good. Robin Axline: I'm doing, doing, doing the thing, adjusting back to New York life over here. It's good. And, no, Tita Lors: Sorry, I was blowing my nose. Robin Axline: no worries. But, yeah, I... from a previous episode that you brought to us regarding the Oscars and one of your facts I was thinking about recently I was telling my brother the three options that it could be and so I was just having fun Tita Lors: yeah. Robin Axline: with it and I was thinking petty petty things that kind of come out of that. And I realized Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: I kind of did a little digging. And the one that you said about Betty Davis and her husband's rear end or behind posterior story coming out of the shower or whatever that was. Tita Lors: Yeah, my god, it's so weird. Robin Axline: And I was thinking how bizarre that was. So I Tita Lors: You Robin Axline: was like, wait, that was kind of funny. Tita Lors: Hehehehe Robin Axline: And so I looked it up and one of the part of the lore is that she claimed that she coined the word Oscar. Like she Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: was like, I made it up. Tita Lors: Uh-huh. Bow down to me, even though they were using it before her, yeah. Robin Axline: everybody like, yeah, bowed down to me. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. So, yeah, I looked into it and kind of got into the pettiness of Bette Davis and I was like, oh, yeah, and then she had that rivalry with Joan Crawford. And then I was like, oh, yeah, and then there was that TV show that came out in like 2017 called Feud. It's like a Ryan Murphy style. It's called Betty Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: and Joan. Feud Betty and Joan. Did you watch that at all or? Tita Lors: I'm gonna look it up. I didn't watch that. I'm like, what is this? It sounds familiar, but now I'm gonna look it up. Feud, Betty, and June. of course. my God, I love these two actors. I haven't seen it, but now I want to. Robin Axline: It's really one of those easy watch things and you can easily like... Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: You can even like... I wouldn't recommend this but you can even go into the kitchen and make a little snack and come back and you wouldn't miss much. It's just kind of Tita Lors: Anything? Robin Axline: easy to binge and just have it going. So Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Robin Axline: I was like, yeah that show. And then I was... Tita Lors: So something to put in the background while I write an episode. Robin Axline: 100%. Yeah, you could totally multitask Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: with that. You just, I mean, some of it you can just listen to, but the costumes and the Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: vehicles and all that is great to look at as well for that era. Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: Anywho, so I just kind of like went into the snowball from your fact. Tita Lors: huh. Robin Axline: And was like, yeah, they had this wild rivalry. And so I thought. The thing to do Tita Lors: Let's get into it. Robin Axline: is let's get into it. I just had like a pause here. Cut that out. Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: But any who, the energy that was between the two of them sounds exhausting. And Tita Lors: Ugh, man. Robin Axline: it went on for like years and years apparently and I was just thinking to myself like I don't even have the energy to return one text message let alone maintain a grudge for like decades literally. Tita Lors: Keep up a feud. Robin Axline: So crazy. And also Tita Lors: man, it's easier than you think. I'm like, oh, yeah. Robin Axline: Personal experience. Tita Lors: I mean, it's not like anything I think of on a regular basis. I don't have to like think about all the time, but there's definitely one specific person who any people know that when her name gets brought up, I'm like, God. Robin Axline: Yeah, I guess I do have something like that in my life. I'm just like, Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: don't even talk about it, please. Tita Lors: Yeah, seriously. Do we have? I know she's your friend, but geez, how? Robin Axline: Yeah. Let's just keep it out of the combo. Yeah. Tita Lors: Yeah, seriously. Robin Axline: But the other thing I read is that upon learning of Joan Crawford's death, there's a famous quote from Betty Davis in Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: 1977 when she passed. She said, you should never say bad things about the dead. You should only say good. Joan Crawford is dead. Good. Tita Lors: my god Robin Axline: I was like, holy cow, she's still, still going. Tita Lors: Seriously? Wow, I bet you they're keeping it up in death too. Yeah. Robin Axline: So before we get into it, I wanted to ask you something. If you had Tita Lors: Yes. Robin Axline: to be stuck in a petty rivalry for the rest of your life, would you rather it be loud and explosive or quiet and psychologically unsettling? because I feel like those are basically the only two options in Hollywood and I feel like Yeah, feel free to answer if you think of one, Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: but. Tita Lors: I'm thinking, I think I'm a subtle, petty person, like subtle digs and passive aggressive stuff. So I'd probably do that one. Like, I don't have to look bad. You can look bad. You can look stupid and out loud if you want to. That's on you. But everything that I do, you're going to think it's directed at you, but you're not going to know. Robin Axline: No, I like that. I like that version. It's not hurting any- I mean it is, but it's not like, it's not Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: so loud that other people experience it too, Tita Lors: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, I don't want to make myself look stupid just because you suck. You make yourself look stupid. Robin Axline: True, true, Yeah, but I feel like this story got me thinking Tita Lors: cough Robin Axline: too, like Petty used to have like craftsmanship. Like there Tita Lors: Yes! Robin Axline: was like effort to it and now it's just sub tweets or back then it was like Tita Lors: Mm. Yeah. Robin Axline: emotional warfare and now not so much. Tita Lors: Yeah, back then it like really made you, it got under your skin and you're like, did? What? Lived with you? There is Robin Axline: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and... Tita Lors: a very subtle art to it now. there is, there was and is. Right. Robin Axline: Back then. I still... yeah. Tita Lors: Yeah. Like if you do it right, it's an art form. Being petty is an art form, I think. Robin Axline: Indeed. 100%. Tita Lors: Yeah, but I think people are just very much like for the quick, like clap backs and stuff now and not the kind of insidious things that really live with you. Yeah, for the rest of your life. Robin Axline: Like that slow burn. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally, totally. But yeah, so basically today I wanted to talk about Joan Crawford and Bette Davis and their celebrity feud. I think... Yeah. Tita Lors: Yay. And for those who don't know who these two people are, do we get a background history? Robin Axline: Yeah, so essentially they were like top of the game kind of it women at the time and they were both kind of aging around the same time same era where studios were changing things and they weren't getting as many roles they basically just kind of aged out of the situation, I guess you could say. But yeah, they were in a... They were both top tier Warner Brothers actresses. But as I was mentioning, their roles became limited and women, even back when they started, women were constantly ranked against each other and there was not as much room for Tita Lors: Mm. Robin Axline: leading women as you can imagine. And Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: also the competition was basically built into the job. So I think before anything personal even enters the Tita Lors: I imagine that it got worse after the Academy Awards. Robin Axline: yeah, I have some stories to tell you about that. So yeah, but Tita Lors: I'm so excited. Okay, let's go. Robin Axline: yeah, I mean, that's like a really general, I feel like I could have just gone into hours about their careers and different things, but this time I'm keeping it a little bit more towards like the petty element. maybe we can- I mean Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: this one was hard because there were so many different avenues I could have taken but I could- that would Tita Lors: You have. Robin Axline: be like days and days long. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you know the Tita Lors: Multiple episodes. Robin Axline: no more wire hangers of it all. Tita Lors: Yes, my gosh, you unlocked a memory and what movie is that? Robin Axline: It's, Mommy Dearest. It's based on the book Tita Lors: Yes! Robin Axline: that her daughter wrote, I believe, Joan Crawford. Tita Lors: my gosh, hold on, I need to write this down so I can remember for later. Robin Axline: I mean that is iconic. I mean she's basically Tita Lors: Yes! Robin Axline: she's a queer icon as well I would say. Tita Lors: I'm gonna watch it again today probably. Robin Axline: Don't take any tips from that. Tita Lors: I'm seriously... Robin Axline: But yeah, it's very, very interesting life they both had. But I'm Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: going to jump over that. Maybe we can go back another day. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: I guess I was going to be before before before I was going to say, you think people can pick up that kind of competition without even directly interacting? I think yes. With the women like being pitted against women you kind of like have that feeling of like a competition even if you haven't even met kind of like they if you knew of the other person Tita Lors: yeah, yeah for sure it happens a lot in pop culture or in like music especially right like JLo versus Mariah Carey Robin Axline: I don't know her. The I don't know her of it all. That's another one we should talk about. I have lots to say. Tita Lors: Yeah, yeah, exactly. We should for sure. But yeah, right, like and it happens a lot with like artists being pitted against each other because their music or their art is being compared. And it's always well, who did it better? Who does it best? And they do it especially to women like two people can't Robin Axline: especially. Tita Lors: hold that. Yeah, right. It's a lot of like, well, who's the better between the two of them? And I, don't hear that really with men too often, like which guy did it best? Nobody cares. They're both just equally good. So I know. So for sure, I think you can know somebody and just because of the pressures or whatever end up in a heated rivalry and you don't even know it sometimes. Robin Axline: Yeah, I mean, you know, this just a memory popped up is when I was in performing arts school. That happened almost every other day, you know, like somebody would get a role or praise or whatever. And then you're like, you know, like, what's up with that person? And you don't Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: even it's like a competition that you didn't even know was happening. Tita Lors: Yeah, my gosh, you also unlock something for me and like in my family too, where like parents, they are in like competition with each other to be the best parent in the family or whatever. Like my parenting is better than your parenting. I'm a better parent than you. Look at my child. And then they're competing with each other through the progress of their children. And it yeah, that happened to me and one of my cousins and it like It was so bad and the teachers could see it that they made us go to different schools. Robin Axline: That's crazy. Yeah, so yeah, it can happen in a lot of different elements, I believe. Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: So this kind of was happening between the two women just because there's only so many spots apparently back in the day. But I'm going to start with a story. It's the one I was actually going to say about the Oscars. So this is 1963 and Basically, Betty Davis was not- this is a movie that they made together, whatever happened to Baby Jane, which I'll get into in a minute. They had a rivalry throughout that. Betty Davis is nominated for Baby Jane and Joan is not. And instead of just stepping back, Joan Crawford contacted- I don't know if all, but most of the female nominees for best actress and says, if you win and you're not there, I'll accept the award for you. Because she Tita Lors: Wow. Robin Axline: like couldn't handle that she wasn't nominated. Tita Lors: At all, yeah. Robin Axline: And like she even one gal she talks her out of it almost she's like well you're busy doing a play you don't want to have to bother with this like x y and z kind of and Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: you know this other one was like you're in New York and this is in LA what a bother kind of thing Tita Lors: to have to go all the way over there. Robin Axline: Yeah, so she got a few yeses like, okay, sure. Like if I win, you can accept my award. I'm not even going to go to the award show. And so the one that Tita Lors: Wow. Robin Axline: won. and the other thing is Betty Davis was like pretty darn sure she was going to win. So Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: here's the shock is that she didn't win and and Bancroft won for the Miracle Worker. She played Annie Sullivan. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. that movie sounds so familiar. Robin Axline: It's, Well, Patty Duke... yeah, so Patty Duke played Helen Keller in that movie. And she did an amazing job. Yeah, Tita Lors: Okay, yeah, that's exactly what I thought it was. Yep. Robin Axline: and so she kind of felt like... she should let her shine and so that was part of the reason why she was like, Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: yeah, accept the award for me. So basically Joan got on stage and did this like, she read her speech, but she was almost acting like it was hers kind of. And she took, she took Tita Lors: Wow. Robin Axline: the Oscar home and I'm eventually imagining that she gave it to Anne Bancroft, but she was like, Tita Lors: I would hope so, my gosh. Robin Axline: She like acted like it was her award, seriously. Like, delulu vibes. Tita Lors: That's... wow. Robin Axline: And I know it was like partially just the pettiness of being like, I won and you didn't too. Yeah, Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Or I get to accept an award and you don't. Robin Axline: yeah, and it really gotten Tita Lors: Wow. Robin Axline: Betty's craw, I'm sure. Tita Lors: Yeah, is there a third like video of this right now? Or they just described it. Robin Axline: It's just a description, but, well, in Feud, they kind of show it. Yeah. Tita Lors: Yeah, I would love to see. Okay. Robin Axline: But the book, there's a couple of biographies I've perused in the past, and it kind of describes that Tita Lors: huh. Robin Axline: as well. Tita Lors: Wow, Robin Axline: Yeah. Tita Lors: I couldn't even imagine doing something like that. Robin Axline: I mean, it's just so wild. And I feel like her motivation was like, you know, I'm not going to win, but I'm still going to shape how how the night feels for me. And that really, I Tita Lors: Yeah. Uh-huh. Robin Axline: thought really crossed the line into petty. Tita Lors: Yeah, I'm like, I'm going to experience this vicariously. And like, knife in the like twisting the knife in the wound is like, if she gets to accept the award, then the bonus is like, well, obviously you lost. So I get to stand up here. And you don't. Womom. Robin Axline: Yeah, it's just, I just, couldn't like jump over that. It was just like so crazy. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: I feel like this episode might just be me bringing you two women who desperately needed therapy in 1962. Tita Lors: Seriously? Robin Axline: It's like, was like, I could think I was like, Laura, help them. Yeah, jump in a time machine. Tita Lors: Please come in my office. Let's talk about this. I know. Why do you need this so much? What part needs validation? Robin Axline: know, right? So yeah, back to the kind of description of what was going on. If you dear listeners, readers, publicists. Tita Lors: haha Robin Axline: So Joan Crawford was an extremely controlled image image focus, like curated public identity type person, like very buttoned up and worried about what people Tita Lors: Did she have like OCD? Robin Axline: I think so. I'm pretty sure there's some of that. Don't quote me, but... Tita Lors: Yeah, don't quote me either. I'm not the one diagnosing her. I'm just trying to remember from watching Mommy Dearest. That was like a long, long, long, time ago for me. But it's, I feel they definitely give like OCD vibes. Robin Axline: Mm-hmm. I think, well, yeah, I could imagine. I mean, she was like really particular about things. So it could have been like an Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: undiagnosed thing. And honestly, Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: they were both, both women were full on alcoholics. So that doesn't help either. Tita Lors: Yeah. Yeah. Robin Axline: Like very irrational alcoholics. But. Yeah, so it Tita Lors: my god, yeah. Robin Axline: probably goes along with her being buttoned up and just kind of like just so about things and Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: the polar opposite was Betty Davis who was very like intense and blunt and she wasn't interested in making anyone comfortable when she spoke. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: Like she would give these really kind of aggressive answers in interviews and things. So there was already, I feel like that, yeah, I mean, like get it girl. Especially in Tita Lors: good for her. Robin Axline: that day and age. I'm sure she had a right to in some ways. But yeah. Tita Lors: Yeah. Is it Betty Davis? Is Betty Davis the like pinup poster girl? Was that her or am I thinking about something, someone else or something else? Robin Axline: She might have been because she was like pretty like glam back in the day. But I don't think it's it's probably not who Tita Lors: Yes. Robin Axline: you're thinking of. I don't know. Tita Lors: Like with the handkerchief and the hair, strong arm image. Was that Betty Davis? Yeah. Robin Axline: Rosie the Riveter. That's I mean, I don't I don't know about that one, but let me see. Davis pin up girl. yeah, she she definitely did some poses like that. But I don't know if it's if she Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: did a Rosie the Riveter picture. Tita Lors: Okay, no, nevermind, I think you met somebody else. Robin Axline: Okay. No problem. Tita Lors: All right, continue. Robin Axline: this out. Yes. So yeah. So when was, Tita Lors: So one was very button up and polished. The other one was like, get what you get. Robin Axline: yeah, like. I can speak my mind. don't need to make anybody feel comfortable. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: So to me that really screamed friction already. what's Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: interesting to me is that there wasn't one... I know! We Tita Lors: Neither of us can talk today. Robin Axline: didn't do our, you know New York, you need New York, you know you need unique New York. Tita Lors: Holy crap! Wait, you know New York. Robin Axline: New York. You need New York. You know you need... No, you already did it! New... You know New York. Tita Lors: You know, you know, oh my God, you know, you, you know, New York, you need New York. Robin Axline: New York. You know you need unique New York. Tita Lors: You know you need unique New York. Crap, good for you. I'm not gonna do it. I'm so congested. Robin Axline: Next time, next time. We'll do, I'll run you through some warm-ups before our next app. Tita Lors: I know. We'll just have like a side if you want to pay for it listening to us struggle. Listen to me struggle. Robin Axline: Ooh, that... Yeah, that'll be the bonus. So you gotta get on Patreon for that one. Mm-hmm. Tita Lors: I know, Whenever we have one. Robin Axline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shout out if you would subscribe to that. We'd love to have you. Bonus stuff. Bonus content like me trying to have you do tongue twisters. Tita Lors: I know, Say these things. Yeah, you can have me do tongue twisters and I'll teach you Tagalog. Some words are... Indeed, yeah. Robin Axline: deal. All right, it's on. All right, guys, stay tuned. Tita Lors: There's some sentences that are tongue twisters in Tagalog where I'm like, what? Stop. Robin Axline: my gosh. Tita Lors: It's way too many syllables for one word. Robin Axline: Yeah, because when you've said things I'm looking at the word I'm like, it says that? Okay, Tita Lors: Hahaha! Robin Axline: interesting. Man, that's funny. Okay. No, it's all good. Tita Lors: Alright, okay, okay, I'll stop interrupting you. Go, go, go. Robin Axline: okay yes so the friction was definitely real between these two personalities already and like i mentioned they were kind of aging stars and Joan couldn't really get a script that didn't scream age, like she was getting like grandma roles from her Tita Lors: Mm-mm. Robin Axline: agent and things that just really didn't make her feel. worth worthy of an actor Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: like herself. And so the Asian basically was like, well, why don't you go find your own material if you think you're so hotsy tosy. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm Robin Axline: So her and some other colleagues went through books and to see Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: if there could be like an adaptation of a really good book. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: And at the time there wasn't a lot of like murder mystery horror genre. It started to ramp up Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: with Psycho and that was a huge hit. So she found this book. Yes. Tita Lors: Hitchcock. Robin Axline: And so there was a space for that at this time. It just wasn't super popular and she found this book called Whatever Happened to Baby Jane and it. Tita Lors: Mm. Robin Axline: was a unanimous like, yeah, we should definitely make this into a movie. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: It's budget friendly, because spoiler alert, it only takes place in a house. There's like, hardly anything some very Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: small cast. It's basically the two women Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: and maybe a handful. I don't remember exactly, but maybe just a few other people. And it's filmed kind of spookily so you could operate it with a smaller crew. So they were Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: like, yes, yes, and yes, perfect. And so Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: she would star in it and had to figure out who else would be a big enough actor to kind of co act off of. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: and Betty Davis came up and she was like, damn it, I don't really want that. But Tita Lors: No! Robin Axline: yeah, she agreed to have her do it and basically talked her into it, even though they were already kind of rivals of each other. And Tita Lors: Could you do that? Could you work with somebody that you knew did not have good feelings towards you? Robin Axline: Man, I think that would be incredibly difficult. Like, Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: because then you're signing up for who knows how long of that. And I think it eventually would wear Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: away at you. I think. Tita Lors: Yeah, like if we can't have a chit chat about being respectful of each other or like figure out what's going on here, like I don't want to work with you, especially if you're going to be passive aggressive and a bitch the entire time. I'm sorry. I know we're not supposed to be using that word towards each other. It's just like. I know if you're not gonna be nice, right? Like, Robin Axline: Yeah. Tita Lors: damn. I won't be nice back. How am I supposed to act? Robin Axline: Right. Yeah, that's wild. I think in her case, it was a bit of a desperate move because of her livelihood Tita Lors: Mm. Robin Axline: and wanting to do quality work. So I Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: think that would be really hard. I think I could white-knuckle it. But wouldn't be fun. Yeah. Eat humble pie. Whatever Tita Lors: Yeah, swallow my pride a little bit. Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: else there is. What about you? Tita Lors: Yeah, gosh. That's so rough. Could I do it? Yeah, I don't- could I? Like, if I absolutely had to. Right, like if my- if I needed to put food on the table and survive. Like you said, I would white-knuckle it or I'd like try to have a respectful conversation with the person. Robin Axline: yeah, that would be the mature move for sure. Tita Lors: Yeah, but if you're gonna keep being there, there would probably come a point where it's like you need to get your shit together or quit and then you don't get your stupid ass movie. How about that? Robin Axline: Yeah, yeah, I bet you back then it was harder to get people to go to bat for you as far as that. They're just like, Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: deal with it, it's Hollywood. But I feel like now Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: I would secure somebody to be on my side just to make sure Tita Lors: Mmm. Robin Axline: things couldn't get any worse. Tita Lors: Yeah, it's such a shame because especially back then with like the culture around women as actresses or women in the workforce, you would think that they'd want to be like champions of each other and to support each other. it would have been like a hey, girl, I'm struggling with how society is painting us and telling us that we have to be old when we're not even old. let's do this amazing project together and show these people like how awesome we are so they could stop painting us in this corner, right? Like you would hope that's what it is. Robin Axline: Yeah, yeah, just work it out in the remix, ladies, you know? Squash that beef. Yeah, that would be great. Tita Lors: Yeah, seriously. Right? But no, yeah, instead, they kind of like internalized it and instead of going up against the man, you know, they, yeah. Robin Axline: Yeah, it's a bummer. It's a bummer. So just to jump back in the studio also, this is exactly what we're talking about, was like, they are kind of a rival actors. And so this would be Tita Lors: Hmm. Robin Axline: like great for publicity. Like having Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: these old school, like big time actors in a movie that kind of hate each other. So they were, huh? Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Yeah. How? Real sorry, sidetrack. How old were they when they did Baby Jane? Do you know? Robin Axline: You I think I wrote it down and I don't know. No, no, no, no, no. You asked the Tita Lors: Sorry, I asked a lot of questions. Robin Axline: greatest questions. Let me just Google it. Maybe we can cut this too. Tita Lors: You Robin Axline: Ages. Betty D... Oh, okay. So it was 1962. Betty Davis, who played Jane, was 54. And Joan Crawford, Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: who played the sister Blanche, was 57 to 58, it says. Tita Lors: So still relatively young-ish. Robin Axline: Yeah, I mean, it's it is like sad that they were reduced to playing grandparents in things. Tita Lors: Yeah. Although, freaking, I saw a thing where was like, Melissa Joan Hart is playing a grandma. She's 50! Robin Axline: crazy you know what's funny is she came up on my algorithm the other day and she was doing push-ups with high heels on and she was like I'm 50 year you know she did I know Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: and then she also did that Sally O'Malley from SNL oh Tita Lors: I don't know what that is. Robin Axline: it's brilliant character you gotta look it up Tita Lors: Sorry. I love her. Robin Axline: It's Molly Shannon at one of her best. You know, she, know that one, man, this is a side tangent that we can also edit, but she, Tita Lors: It's fine. Who doesn't love a side tangent? Robin Axline: yeah, right? Do you know, do you remember the Sama Donna one? Tita Lors: I bet if I saw it I would know, but... Robin Axline: Basically, she's like trying to say her name or not trying to say her name. She's trying to say simmer down. But she's like some Madonna and then she's like, if you Tita Lors: huh. yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Simma down. Yeah. Robin Axline: go to a record store and you look up Donna Summer, you're going to look it up last name first. So it's some Madonna, some Madonna. Tita Lors: Yeah Robin Axline: Just some Madonna. I love that one. Tita Lors: You Robin Axline: And then also her she goes, I can kick. And I'm 50! Tita Lors: You Robin Axline: She's wearing like a full-on jumpsuit and her hair's all big. It's so good. Tita Lors: Uh-huh. my gosh. Robin Axline: So good. Love her. Tita Lors: Good from Nick what Nick at night Nickelodeon to to this I can't Right, are we thinking of the same person? Yes, Melissa Joan Hart. Wait Exactly Robin Axline: Oh, Melissa Joan Hart. Yeah. Yes, from Clarissa Explains It All to being 50 and doing a Molly Shannon impression. She did that. Yeah. No, Tita Lors: Yeah, I mean she's only... no good. Robin Axline: she's like, I'm 50. She like copied it. It was so funny. Tita Lors: Hehehehe Robin Axline: was like, oh, man, wild. Tita Lors: Yeah, she's only, what, 10 years older than us. Robin Axline: Don't even start with that. Tita Lors: I know. Robin Axline: Don't even. Tita Lors: I'm doing a month to month countdown of when I turn 40. Robin Axline: stop. It's not that bad, I think. But she Tita Lors: man. Robin Axline: is like a brilliant businesswoman, which she's done. She has like all these Hallmark Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Robin Axline: movies under her belt. She kind Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: of just like went where the money was and didn't buck it, I think. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. She's like, is what I'm good at. This is my lane. We're sticking to it. Robin Axline: Yeah, yeah, I did listen to her podcast a little bit, but it wasn't really my jam. And yeah, Tita Lors: I didn't even know she had one. Robin Axline: there was like a lot of I mean, no offense, but there's like a lot of like mommy talk with her co host and stuff. Tita Lors: uh-huh. Robin Axline: like, I just don't want to listen to this right now. Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: It just seemed like it was like a lot of filler sometimes. So but I was such a fan. Tita Lors: yeah. And there could be like... Robin Axline: Sabrina the Teenage Witch of it all. Tita Lors: Ugh, yes. So good. nostalgia. Seriously. Alright, back to these alleged grandmothers. I mean, guess, like late 50s. Robin Axline: Yeah, yeah late 50s is well no I'm not stop stop I'm not gonna like Demi Moore is like what is she 50 something Hold on Tita Lors: Yeah, I mean, OK, if I do the math, if I am once I'm mid 50s, my oldest will be like early 20s or just barely turning 21. Technically not a bad time. I wouldn't recommend that anybody have a kid at 21. But. Robin Axline: No, you have so much more life to live. Tita Lors: Yeah, seriously. But, know, you're an adult, you theoretically done most if not all of your like undergrad stuff. So 21, 22, not a horrible time to start a family. So I could presumably become a grandmother in my mid fifties, mid to late fifties. That's so young. Robin Axline: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's I've. So young, but I've seen grandparents Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: that are super young. It's not. I mean, not that unusual. Now, Demi Moore is 63 years old. Tita Lors: Me too, yeah. That's not... In these days... Wow. my god, I can't, I'm gonna ask another, this is gonna take us down another tangent. I'm gonna ask it anyways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Robin Axline: It's okay. I didn't mean to interrupt you before there's a delay, so... Tita Lors: Gosh, I need to get better internet, I think. But have you watched Substance yet? Robin Axline: yet. I've seen it multiple Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: multiple times. Tita Lors: my gosh, the ending, was like, what did I just watch? Robin Axline: my god, it was delicious. Tita Lors: I saw the ending and I was like, this is so Robin's movie. yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah, but I Robin Axline: really? It was totally my vibe. Like head to toe, like everything, especially the body horror of it all. Chef's kiss. Tita Lors: was like, I was getting through it and I was like, oh, how interesting. What a thinker, blah, blah, blah. And then I got to the very end and I was like, what the hell is happening? Robin Axline: It's like a typical chaos, like old school, just everything go to some other place. Tita Lors: Yeah, yeah, it like escalated quickly. But I maybe think of it because, you know, she's the age that she is. And sometimes we have thoughts and our first the first thoughts in our head is like, what we were taught to think and to believe. And then the next thought is what we actually who we actually want to be right in my first thought there was, how brave of her to like show her real body without it being like blah, blah, blah, right? And I was like, what a stupid, horrific thing to think. Like it's not a, aging is not a brave thing to do. Aging is just a thing you do. And it's so amazing that her and like, especially Madonna after her coming out in like Coachella with Sabrina Carpenter and all that stuff that these women are paving the way to say like, Yeah, I'm aging and what of it? Like, this is my body and what of it? What are you gonna do? Like, I am aging and I refuse to stop existing. I refuse to stop having roles where I dress like, where I am the main character and where I dress like the sexy person that's desirable. Like, I will not be quiet for you. Yeah, like it's so, it's so awesome. They're like paving the way for us to be able to just age. And while yes, perhaps they have done work and whatever, blah, blah. Robin Axline: Just a little bit. Tita Lors: Yeah, a little here and there touch ups, but like, whatever. They're Robin Axline: Yeah. Tita Lors: still aging and not fading away. It's so cool. Robin Axline: That is wonderful. Yeah, I don't know how much of that representation we had. Not as much, perhaps. So kudos to them. Mmm. That. Tita Lors: Yeah, yeah, well, because like the golden girls, yes, you're seeing the golden girls were in their 50s. Like that's what it meant to be 50. Robin Axline: That blew my mind when I found that out. Tita Lors: Yeah Robin Axline: Like, seriously? When Tita Lors: Right? Robin Axline: I grew up watching it as a kid, I was like, this is like a boring old lady show. And then when I got older, Tita Lors: Uh-huh. Robin Axline: I was like, this is tight. But I didn't realize they were that young. Tita Lors: Me either. I thought they were like 60s, 70s perhaps. Like I loved watching them. They were so much fun and their like banter was so great and I wanted to be just like them. Robin Axline: Hmm. Yeah, we all have a little bit of everybody inside of us. Tita Lors: Yeah, yeah. So like, again, just circling back to how horrible for these two women that they, they not only are not allowed to age with grace, but they're being like pushed out probably for a younger model. Robin Axline: yeah, definitely. From what I've read, they Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: definitely struggled with that. Getting parts and... Yeah, yeah, the studio of it all, Tita Lors: Yeah, and then they're being pitted against each other. Yeah. Robin Axline: they were just like, boy, we can milk this for all it's worth. Let's get these two ladies in a movie together and just see what happens, Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: kind of vibe, which is awful also. It's like... sad too because they were both so petty apparently that they were like who's gonna own this comeback and it turns into something bigger than tension because it's a story that everybody's watching like i think in Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: the paparazzi there was starting to be some stories kicked up and just wasn't wasn't very wholesome And Tita Lors: Hmm. Robin Axline: so I will bring up another petty story that I found was interesting is There's... Yeah. Joan becomes deeply associated with PepsiCo after marrying the chairman of Pepsi. So Pepsi Tita Lors: Mmm. Robin Axline: became... This is before branding deals and things were like so for- at the forefront, I would say. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: Pepsi became part of her identity. So she'd be seen drinking Pepsi all over the place. Tita Lors: Wow, she was an influencer. Robin Axline: Right? Yeah, that's what I mean. And she would have actually what's really crazy. And I don't know if this is I don't know if there's 100 % true, but from different sources and also in the TV show, she actually had a Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: Pepsi machine brought to the set so people could have Pepsi's. Yeah. And she Tita Lors: Hardcore influencer. Robin Axline: Yeah, and she'd have Pepsi in her dressing room and she just put it like all over the place like, look at me, I'm so fancy about I'm married to a soda person. And Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: so the pettiness part is that Betty Davis was so annoyed by it she's like she's like Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: stop it i don't care and she made sure that her dressing room had coca cola all over the place like she had um almost like a ice chest thing of just coke like boom like Tita Lors: code. Robin Axline: you think you're so soda i'm soda too Tita Lors: Hehehehe Robin Axline: And I was like, wow, how petty to like go out of your way to basically counter brand you Tita Lors: Mhm. Align with a brand. Yeah. Yeah! Robin Axline: like without even saying anything. And then it just Tita Lors: That's so funny. Robin Axline: kept escalating on set and reportedly during filming, everything got so tense that they stopped speaking to each other directly. And Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: anything they had to say to each other about the script or blocking was like, like one was like, can you, I read, can you move slightly to the left in this part? Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: And they tell it to a crew member and they would have to tell them. Tita Lors: Wow. Robin Axline: Yeah, like they literally like Tita Lors: This is so childish. Like this is stuff that you do when you're a kid. I'm not talking to you anymore. Tell Robin Axline: Yeah. Right? Tita Lors: so and so that their feet smell. Robin Axline: Yeah, essentially, yeah. But yeah, Tita Lors: you Robin Axline: I guess they're like, can someone tell Miss Crawford this? And I just, wow, I thought that was pretty insane and childlike, like you said. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. It is. Robin Axline: So my question about that is do you think that silence is more intense than arguing? Tita Lors: Yes. Robin Axline: Yeah, that's what I thought too. Tita Lors: Yeah, silence says, and I think we've said it before, right? Like silence is very loud and it says a lot. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: Yeah, and I also think what makes this interesting is they didn't just dislike each other. They maintained this rivalry for like years. And at some point it became lesser about the original conflict and part of their identity. Like people Tita Lors: Mm. Robin Axline: saw them as kind of a bitter rivalry people. And it just didn't have to be Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: like that. Like we were saying, they couldn't have worked it out in the remix, but apparently not. And I guess I was just wondering what do you think each of them was actually trying to protect emotionally? follow-up question also, like at what point does competition turn into fixation? Tita Lors: gosh. I think I wonder, obviously I can't know for sure, but there's a lot about like, know, context clues and the times and the era and all of that. But their worth and their value, I think. Like, they came in simply, a lot of people from the stories that I've read, like you got roles to... simply because of your looks. Whether or not you actually could act, debatable. Whether or not you actually did have talent, debatable. But you had a body that people wanted to look at. You had a face that people wanted to look at. And that made you a commodity. I think people tend to, I actually just said this in a session recently, where people, they tend to, confuse their, um, the worth, what did I say specifically? They compute, they confuse their self-worth with the, like, with the value that they're producing. Hold on, I think I wrote it down somewhere. Robin Axline: Sounds really good. Tita Lors: Yeah, I feel like I was really smart. Okay. The value of the work you're doing is not the same as your worth. Robin Axline: Wow, that's a really profound statement. really like that. Tita Lors: Yeah, and I think a lot of people, especially in spaces where what you produce. is important, especially in like how you get paid and how you level up in the industry and all of that stuff. gets so easy to confuse the value of your work for your own self value that you don't have value outside of what it is that you're making or producing or providing for other people. So I think, especially in the entertainment industry and in creative spaces, when your work is physically you, it's so confusing. And then people don't want seemingly you anymore as a human being. It's not that they don't want you as a human being. It's just that their roles are not being created around this particular idea or whatever. So it's not, we don't want Betty Davis, it's just there aren't roles that are meek, meager male minds at the time can fathom a 50 year old is going to be able to portray. But it, it, yeah, it's very personal. So I think that they were, they're protecting their own sense of self and their own self worth and their value is what I would imagine. Robin Axline: Yeah, no, I totally, I totally am with you on that. think. Yeah, you nailed that. Wow, I'm gonna be thinking about that for a minute, because that was a lot. Tita Lors: haha Robin Axline: And then just with the other question, I'll give my two cents about it. The one about competition Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: turning into fixation is I Tita Lors: Ooh, yeah. Robin Axline: feel like. At least in their situation, the attachment to being angry at someone can almost feel like comfort over time because you're like conditioning yourself to like Tita Lors: Mmm. Robin Axline: have that feeling like that tension within or whatever it is that connection Tita Lors: I'm gonna... Robin Axline: with another person that's not exactly a happy connection can be like a fixation that you're just Tita Lors: Mm-hmm Robin Axline: prone to. attached to. So I think, I Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: think that's definitely a thing that competition can turn into. And just by being attached Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: to being angry. Tita Lors: Yeah. Almost like comfort. Like who would I be if I wasn't angry with you? What would it Robin Axline: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Tita Lors: be like if we didn't have this tension between us? Yeah. Robin Axline: Yeah, totally. so that just about does it for the questions I had on this story, but I also wanted to bring in a little tidbit that I thought. This is almost a hearsay thing that the crew brought up, but it's never been like a credible Tita Lors: Hmm. Robin Axline: source, but basically. Apparently during the filming it got so intense that at one point Betty Davis actually kicked Joan in the head. Which is so crazy. also, know. Tita Lors: Wow. Props on flexibility though. That's not easy to do. Robin Axline: That is so true. See, you can be any age and still kick somebody in the head. Tita Lors: See? Robin Axline: And then another kind of hearsay one Tita Lors: you Robin Axline: that is pretty, it's popped up in almost everything I read was where, wait, I know, Shade, you haven't, have you seen the movie or the, whatever happened to baby Jane? Tita Lors: Which one? Baby Jane? no I haven't, no. Robin Axline: Okay, so. I'm not gonna spoil anything, but one sister Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: is... Well, this is the other meta part about it, is that they're both aging stars. Like, Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: they were child actors in the story. So, it's even more like... Tita Lors: wow. Robin Axline: I never even thought about it that way, but I just kind of had this, Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: But, the one sister ends up in a wheelchair. And so the other sister is kind of stuck taking care of her and her life kind of sucks because of that. So she Tita Lors: Yeah. Robin Axline: there's parts where she drags the sister around. It's very physical. Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: And so the dragging around the sister to that drug around was Joan Crawford. And Tita Lors: my gosh. Robin Axline: basically what she did that was super petty is she put weights under her costume. Tita Lors: you Robin Axline: so she basically was like, you have to lift me out of bed and you have to drag Tita Lors: Mm-hmm. Robin Axline: me around, but I'm secretly wearing weights to make your life horrible. Like, cause apparently Tita Lors: my gosh, harder. Robin Axline: it did like bother her back. This is all hearsay, but apparently Betty Davis was like, my back. Tita Lors: Yeah, mean... weight is hard to drag around. Robin Axline: Yeah, especially with added weights too. Like a full-on woman with, yeah. So I just wanted to add there's a Tita Lors: Yeah, seriously. It's bad enough. my goodness. Robin Axline: lot of funny little stories like that that Tita Lors: Yes. Robin Axline: are hearsay but they're fun to imagine and incredibly petty. Tita Lors: It's so petty. gosh, tit for tat. That's so funny and like horrible at the same time. Robin Axline: Yeah, so I'm gonna close the book. I'm gonna close the book on this story today. Tita Lors: Okay. Robin Axline: Some more may come up, but I just think this is one of the ultimate petty situations I've. And Tita Lors: Rivalries, yeah. Robin Axline: the funny, like I told you before. It all came from your Oscar fact, and then I just kind of like extrapolated on it it really gave me a great I Tita Lors: huh. Robin Axline: was like, how could I never think about this so petty? Tita Lors: I know it's so wild how like you could just research something like even when I was doing the research for last week's episode. I was like, how am I going to work this into like pettiness? And then I saw the stuff about like the fake war. I was like, seriously? Robin Axline: yeah, that was a good one. That was crazy. Tita Lors: I know! How petty can you be? Like, your freaking ego can't handle it, so you're gonna, like, have a fake... you're gonna have a fake battle. Yeah. So stupid. Robin Axline: Yeah. That's nutty. So I know we're running out time, but do you want to do a petty battle? Tita Lors: I do hold on.