Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 40: How Can Churches Recognize and Address Weaknesses? Tim Challies' Leadership Advice. +Review of the Worst Soda In the History of the World.

Transcript

Episode 40: How Can Churches Recognize and Address Weaknesses? Tim Challies' Leadership Advice. +Review of the Worst Soda In the History of the World. · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

• 0:00
  Speaker3: Today, we're continuing our conversation with Tammy and Samuel about how churches
• 0:07
  Speaker3: turn around, how they identify their weaknesses, how they go from slumping and dying to renewal.
• 0:14
  Speaker3: And I was really struck by one of the things that Samuel said in the middle of the conversation.
• 0:19
  Speaker2: And I think if we start focusing away from being consumers to being a church,
• 0:26
  Speaker2: renewal would follow, revival would follow.
• 0:44
  Speaker2: Leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,
• 0:48
  Speaker2: soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship
• 0:52
  Speaker2: and the broader kingdom of God.
• 0:54
  Speaker2: Join hosts Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission
• 0:59
  Speaker2: Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry
• 1:03
  Speaker2: and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
• 1:06
  Speaker3: Hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 40 of the Every Church Flourishing podcast.
• 1:13
  Speaker3: My co-host, Pastor Christopher Cole, and I are discussing church renewal,
• 1:19
  Speaker3: church revitalization with two church members that are going through the process
• 1:24
  Speaker3: themselves, Samuel and Tammy.
• 1:27
  Speaker3: We're going to pick up that interview right in the middle. Let's go.
• 1:31
  Speaker1: Pastor Chase, what would you like to know next?
• 1:35
  Speaker3: So I'm kind of fascinated by the whole process of recognizing your weaknesses
• 1:41
  Speaker3: and doing something about it.
• 1:43
  Speaker3: People aren't good at that. Churches aren't good at that.
• 1:47
  Speaker3: I don't know that any of us likes to be made aware of our weaknesses.
• 1:53
  Speaker3: A guy I really like is Tim Challies. And Mark Halleck, who is somebody that
• 1:58
  Speaker3: Chris Cole really likes, posted a quote from Tim a couple of days ago,
• 2:03
  Speaker3: Which he said this, and it applies to pastors and leaders.
• 2:06
  Speaker3: He says, the apple does not fall far from the tree applies not only to fathers
• 2:11
  Speaker3: and their children, but also to founders in their organizations.
• 2:15
  Speaker3: And this is the first lesson.
• 2:16
  Speaker3: Just as a founder's strengths will be embedded in an organization he creates, so will his weaknesses.
• 2:25
  Speaker3: Just as his strengths may be integral in causing that congregation to rise,
• 2:30
  Speaker3: his weaknesses may be integral in causing it to fall.
• 2:34
  Speaker3: Thus, a wise leader tries to gain an awareness of his weaknesses and in some
• 2:39
  Speaker3: way oppose them or mitigate them, perhaps through policy, through limiting his position,
• 2:45
  Speaker3: or by hiring people whose strengths counter his weaknesses.
• 2:50
  Speaker3: And I think a wise church would do that kind of thing as well.
• 2:55
  Speaker3: And certainly a wise pastor, whether or not he's founded the church or not, should do that.
• 3:01
  Speaker3: And a big part of that is knowing your weaknesses. And I don't think I wanted
• 3:06
  Speaker3: to know my weaknesses in my 30s.
• 3:08
  Speaker3: In my 40s, I started to realize, hey, there probably is some things you're good
• 3:13
  Speaker3: at, and there's some things that you stink at, and it's hindering the church,
• 3:19
  Speaker3: and we need to fix this. And
• 3:21
  Speaker3: I guess my way of fixing that is to try to recruit people who have strengths
• 3:27
  Speaker3: in areas where I have weakness and just let them run in those areas of strength.
• 3:33
  Speaker3: But the part that's fascinating for me, especially for you guys,
• 3:37
  Speaker3: is the identification of weaknesses. So let's talk a little bit about that.
• 3:42
  Speaker3: Tammy, first to you, was there anything you heard during the renew process,
• 3:46
  Speaker3: especially the early stages that
• 3:49
  Speaker3: you didn't want to hear, but maybe later realized that probably is true.
• 3:55
  Speaker3: Talk about that question and maybe the difficulty of examining a church's weaknesses.
• 4:01
  Speaker0: So having been a part of corporate America for 32 years, I mean,
• 4:04
  Speaker0: we get annual reviews where we're constantly being, you know,
• 4:07
  Speaker0: banged over the head for our weaknesses and then praised for our strengths, right?
• 4:10
  Speaker0: So I'm used to that process. So going through the discovery phase and evaluating
• 4:15
  Speaker0: how the church has been doing to me was like part, you know,
• 4:17
  Speaker0: part for the course, right? It's not a big deal.
• 4:19
  Speaker0: Having said that it was hard to see how it was impacting the other people,
• 4:24
  Speaker0: especially people who had been there for a long time because they felt like
• 4:28
  Speaker0: the, there was a lot of negative feedback that came back
• 4:32
  Speaker0: from the congregation, from the people that we were asking to fill out the surveys
• 4:35
  Speaker0: that were kind of showing that there was, that people weren't happy.
• 4:38
  Speaker0: And even though they were coming and loyal, or.
• 4:41
  Speaker0: That they weren't happy. And, and, you know, I think there was,
• 4:45
  Speaker0: I definitely sensed that there were people that were not happy about that.
• 4:49
  Speaker0: And that, and they felt also like, Hey, we're still here. The people that causes
• 4:53
  Speaker0: problem aren't here. Right.
• 4:54
  Speaker0: Why, you know, why is it being placed at our feet? And I think we've had to
• 4:58
  Speaker0: be, I think pastor Chris and I have had to work hard, right.
• 5:01
  Speaker0: To just kind of talk about, look, like there's, we're, we're not,
• 5:04
  Speaker0: we're not focusing on placing blame. What we're trying to say is this is an
• 5:09
  Speaker0: issue. We need to fix it. Now let's focus on moving forward.
• 5:12
  Speaker0: But if you don't identify the issue, then you don't fix it, then it's going
• 5:15
  Speaker0: to keep being an issue. So I'm not mad at anybody for where we are.
• 5:20
  Speaker0: I'm not mad at the mistakes that were made. What I'd like to do is now that
• 5:23
  Speaker0: we know, if we don't do anything about it, then I'm going to get mad.
• 5:26
  Speaker0: If a year from now, we're still in the same problems, I'm going to be upset.
• 5:31
  Speaker0: But now that we know, let's do something about it. So to me,
• 5:34
  Speaker0: that was kind of the process that we had to, what I liked about the discovery
• 5:38
  Speaker0: was that it forced that evaluation.
• 5:40
  Speaker0: It would not have happened otherwise. And it forced people to,
• 5:44
  Speaker0: they, I don't think everybody has fully bought into that. We need to make changes.
• 5:48
  Speaker0: That's the funny part, right?
• 5:50
  Speaker0: But they know, they know, but they're not bought in yet. Right.
• 5:53
  Speaker0: So we're still going through that process because the church knows,
• 5:55
  Speaker0: like we, because we shared the data with the church, right?
• 5:58
  Speaker0: So the church knows, and it's small enough that everybody talks to each other.
• 6:01
  Speaker0: So everybody knows like,
• 6:02
  Speaker0: we need to make changes.
• 6:04
  Speaker3: So coaches, teachers, business leaders, like you're talking about,
• 6:09
  Speaker3: personal trainers, all of these kind of people sort of delight in this process
• 6:13
  Speaker3: of identifying a weakness and strengthening it.
• 6:17
  Speaker3: But it seems like churches just hate it.
• 6:20
  Speaker3: It's almost like, hey, give me five bad things about your kids.
• 6:24
  Speaker3: We take it so personally, but there's actually some great benefit to finding
• 6:30
  Speaker3: a weakness and turning it into a strength.
• 6:31
  Speaker3: So Tammy, what would you say to churches who are avoiding the process of renewal
• 6:37
  Speaker3: because of the fear of pain or hurt feelings?
• 6:41
  Speaker0: I mean, churches are made up of people and if everybody's resisting,
• 6:45
  Speaker0: then that's a problem right there, right?
• 6:47
  Speaker0: So, you know, if you're a church that firmly believes that you've done everything
• 6:52
  Speaker0: you can, but for whatever reason, things just aren't working,
• 6:54
  Speaker0: then going through discovery process is going to give you information.
• 6:59
  Speaker0: It's not meant to point the finger. It's meant to give you information so you
• 7:02
  Speaker0: can have, you know, an understanding of things that you can do to improve.
• 7:05
  Speaker0: And I think that every year, how many times do you do something and then you
• 7:09
  Speaker0: get a survey? It's so annoying, right?
• 7:12
  Speaker0: We're getting surveyed to death and they're like, what was good? What was bad, right?
• 7:15
  Speaker0: Everybody does it, but you're right. Churches don't want to do it.
• 7:18
  Speaker0: It's like, look, even Jesus came and he graded seven churches.
• 7:23
  Speaker0: So like, it's not like you shouldn't be graded. And the key is that,
• 7:27
  Speaker0: are you willing to, there's a scripture that talks about like a wise person will take,
• 7:33
  Speaker0: I don't remember the exact words, but it's like a fool won't listen to discipline,
• 7:38
  Speaker0: but a wise person will take it as something good, right?
• 7:41
  Speaker0: So we need to lean into, hey, we want to be around. We want to be salt in light. We want to help people.
• 7:47
  Speaker0: And if we're not growing, then we need to lean into the fact that we need to
• 7:52
  Speaker0: learn and grow from that.
• 7:56
  Speaker0: Unfortunately, there's a lot of people that come to the church and they all
• 7:59
  Speaker0: say things like, well, I'm doing what God wants us to do. I'm listening to the
• 8:03
  Speaker0: spirit and God must weep. I'm sorry.
• 8:06
  Speaker0: He must weep because he didn't send a son to die for us to have little churches
• 8:10
  Speaker0: that are dying. Like that's not what he did or.
• 8:12
  Speaker3: What he wants. No, I agree. I totally agree. And I think you're referring to
• 8:17
  Speaker3: Proverbs 12, 15. The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
• 8:20
  Speaker3: but a wise man listens to advice and a wise church listens to advice.
• 8:27
  Speaker3: So Samuel, over to you. Talk about the pain process for you guys.
• 8:32
  Speaker3: How painful was it? Was there things you heard during the process that kind of hurt?
• 8:37
  Speaker3: But later on, you're like, yeah, we needed to hear that. This was a good thing.
• 8:40
  Speaker3: And what would you say to churches who are avoiding the hard questions and the
• 8:45
  Speaker3: process of renewal because of their fear of pain or hurt feelings?
• 8:49
  Speaker2: Our situation is a little different, right? So if Pastor Chris,
• 8:53
  Speaker2: let's say, came to us in 2016 and said, hey, I'm going to
• 8:57
  Speaker2: something is wrong with your pastor search, we would have had a really strong pushback.
• 9:04
  Speaker2: But we've gone down that route like four times.
• 9:10
  Speaker2: So to be honest, like, I mean, even before any survey came out, we knew.
• 9:15
  Speaker2: And then Pastor Chris was saying, like, I mean, he asked us once during in that
• 9:20
  Speaker2: whatever corridor, but he actually asked us in different situations three,
• 9:25
  Speaker2: four times the same question.
• 9:27
  Speaker2: Why do you keep choosing the same pastors, like different backgrounds,
• 9:30
  Speaker2: different theological stances? Like, why do you do this, right?
• 9:33
  Speaker2: Why do you do this to yourself? And we have no answer, right?
• 9:37
  Speaker2: The problem is, like, for us, I think this was one of those areas that was really
• 9:43
  Speaker2: painful, I guess, to look at, right?
• 9:46
  Speaker2: Because you have to honestly evaluate yourself in terms of why did we land here?
• 9:53
  Speaker2: I'm going to speak for myself, okay, because I think the church as a whole has been diligent.
• 10:00
  Speaker2: But the fact is, I know on a personal front,
• 10:05
  Speaker2: We have kind of ignored some of the red flags and things like that because we
• 10:12
  Speaker2: are basically thinking either we're kind of thinking in terms of a mob.
• 10:16
  Speaker2: Hey, everybody else seems to be saying yes. Maybe we should say yes and not
• 10:20
  Speaker2: worry about this one aspect that is like really bugging.
• 10:23
  Speaker2: Are not listening to each other enough when somebody is like raising real concerns, right?
• 10:29
  Speaker2: Because again, we want to kind
• 10:31
  Speaker2: of like go with this, hey, let's all unanimously agree to this, right?
• 10:37
  Speaker2: Some of those things are like, see, ours is an older church and as an older
• 10:42
  Speaker2: church in the sense, like most of the congregation is retired,
• 10:45
  Speaker2: most of the congregation, right?
• 10:47
  Speaker2: So honestly, we're always looking for younger people and especially if they
• 10:52
  Speaker2: have kids, we love the fact that, oh, we can start this ministry again, kind of thing, right?
• 10:58
  Speaker2: And all of the last four pastors, young, young with kids, but we don't have
• 11:04
  Speaker2: any kids ministry or any of that sort today, right?
• 11:07
  Speaker2: And we ignored everything else because we got this. And
• 11:14
  Speaker2: One of the things, again, like last week when we were studying experiencing
• 11:17
  Speaker2: God, about God's will, right?
• 11:19
  Speaker2: Really understanding and knowing what God's will is.
• 11:23
  Speaker2: Tammy, you were saying like you can just go off into 10 different paths and
• 11:27
  Speaker2: just feel very productive. I'm doing this, this, this, this at church and completely
• 11:32
  Speaker2: miss out on what God actually wants you to do.
• 11:34
  Speaker2: And I think we have unfortunately been down that path and it's hard to kind
• 11:39
  Speaker2: of re-examine ourselves. It was hard last Sunday to just rethink,
• 11:44
  Speaker2: hey, is this ministry that I love so much? Is it God's will?
• 11:49
  Speaker2: Right so so those kind of questions were difficult and actually you
• 11:56
  Speaker2: you go to a doctor and sometimes they give you bad news but that helps you to
• 12:01
  Speaker2: become better right and try to fix it and so on i think we shouldn't be afraid
• 12:06
  Speaker2: to get ourselves diagnosed in fact maybe romans 12 is about that
• 12:12
  Speaker2: Constantly renewing, constantly checking, constantly re-examining,
• 12:17
  Speaker2: and I think not just individually, but as corporately, as a church,
• 12:22
  Speaker2: I think we should continue doing that and keep that fear aside and see
• 12:28
  Speaker2: what we can fix.
• 12:30
  Speaker0: By the way, because I've been part of a really, really small Bible study and it never grew, right?
• 12:35
  Speaker0: And I was always like, Lord, why isn't this Bible study growing?
• 12:37
  Speaker0: And then he kind of made me realize,
• 12:40
  Speaker0: because he wanted it to be small, to be a place of refreshment and fellowship
• 12:45
  Speaker0: with this small group of people that we could support each other in a deeper
• 12:48
  Speaker0: way than if we were a big group, right?
• 12:50
  Speaker0: And so I remember thinking, well, maybe churches are just supposed to be small, right?
• 12:55
  Speaker0: And one of the things that I've realized is that if a church is not growing and it's dying, right?
• 13:00
  Speaker0: And going through this process has made me realize that.
• 13:06
  Speaker0: Churches are different than like a little Bible study. You can have a small
• 13:09
  Speaker0: Bible study that goes 20 years, it's fine.
• 13:12
  Speaker0: But for a church to be 20 people over 20 years, I mean, people are going to die, move, it will die.
• 13:20
  Speaker0: You have to be in this constant state of, you know, renewal and bringing in
• 13:24
  Speaker0: younger people. And I just, I mean, it was happening at the big churches I was
• 13:28
  Speaker0: at, but I never thought about it for this church until we went through this process.
• 13:32
  Speaker0: So even though maybe it didn't work out, Samuel, I mean, I do think that the
• 13:36
  Speaker0: focus on the younger generation to me is definitely key.
• 13:41
  Speaker1: I am loving this conversation that we are getting to have with you guys.
• 13:45
  Speaker1: In part, a lot of our listeners are pastors and church leaders.
• 13:50
  Speaker1: And I want to just be very honest here and say that I am deeply familiar with
• 13:56
  Speaker1: with what it feels like to a pastor to walk into a church and see the same six people there again.
• 14:06
  Speaker1: And I know what it feels like to watch a congregation shrink rather than thrive or to grow.
• 14:14
  Speaker1: And I know the feelings that are associated from the pastor's side when we watch a church decline.
• 14:22
  Speaker1: But the reality is most people in the Christian world are not pastors,
• 14:29
  Speaker1: and they may not hold various really visible leadership positions in the church.
• 14:35
  Speaker1: So I want us to talk briefly about what does it feel like?
• 14:41
  Speaker1: You're a member of a church. What does it feel like to experience a season of
• 14:46
  Speaker1: decline or to realize that you're in decline?
• 14:50
  Speaker1: And what do you think pastors, denominational leaders, guys like me that you
• 14:56
  Speaker1: think, man, you just don't know what it feels like.
• 14:59
  Speaker1: What do we fail to understand about the experience of the church members there in the pews?
• 15:07
  Speaker1: Samuel, what do you think?
• 15:09
  Speaker2: Pastor Chris said you wanted an honest answer.
• 15:12
  Speaker1: I want an honest answer. Yeah, give it to us. Here we go. We like honest conversations
• 15:17
  Speaker1: here on Every Church Flourishing.
• 15:21
  Speaker1: We give honest soda reviews, and we have honest conversations. That's right.
• 15:27
  Speaker3: Your slogan.
• 15:29
  Speaker2: To me, I think it's very broad, but I think there are two types of,
• 15:34
  Speaker2: two categories of folks, right?
• 15:37
  Speaker2: And when I say folks, it's all of the church, including the pastor.
• 15:41
  Speaker2: One basically says, like, you know, I'm going down with this ship,
• 15:46
  Speaker2: okay, wherever it goes, right? And the other is basically like, I'm out of here, right?
• 15:51
  Speaker2: And the folks that I find, like, you know, again, this is all very limited experience, right?
• 15:59
  Speaker2: The folks that I see are ready to go down with the ship are the ones who are ready to do anything.
• 16:06
  Speaker2: They are ready to ask for help. They're ready to...
• 16:09
  Speaker2: Try out different things, give up things and so on, right?
• 16:13
  Speaker2: And try and see how and what could help and pray versus, this is the unfortunate
• 16:21
  Speaker2: truth, versus folks who actually just leave because they're not really invested into the church.
• 16:28
  Speaker2: Maybe they've not developed that level of relationships and so on as members.
• 16:33
  Speaker2: But from my perspective, I think the most disheartening thing is the pastors
• 16:39
  Speaker2: who just look at the signs and then the first thing they do is just exit, right?
• 16:46
  Speaker2: And to me, it's almost like as if, are pastors looking at this as a job or as a call?
• 16:53
  Speaker2: The Developing Christ-Centered Church book was like a bomb to our soul,
• 16:58
  Speaker2: just going through and understanding how churches should function and so on, right?
• 17:04
  Speaker2: And just looking at that, I wish we had more pastors like Pastor Henry,
• 17:10
  Speaker2: who would be like, hey, I'll call to Calvary.
• 17:14
  Speaker2: I don't care whether you pay or not.
• 17:16
  Speaker2: God will take care of that. I'm going to minister here because that's my call.
• 17:21
  Speaker2: Versus, yeah, what we see is almost, to me, it almost feels like it's disheartening
• 17:27
  Speaker2: because it feels like John 10, 12, except the first moment you see a wolf.
• 17:32
  Speaker2: So from a denominational leader's perspective, I mean, this is almost like a church problem, right?
• 17:39
  Speaker2: So I think I like the fact that a program like Renew is helping churches like
• 17:45
  Speaker2: us to put policies in place that are healthy, right?
• 17:51
  Speaker2: Maybe another thing to do would be to actually not just as part of Renew,
• 17:58
  Speaker2: Any church being able to reach out and say, hey, can you just go look at all
• 18:03
  Speaker2: the things that we're doing?
• 18:05
  Speaker2: And since you have access to like hundreds of churches, are there things that
• 18:09
  Speaker2: we could do better? Maybe that's one way to look at it.
• 18:12
  Speaker2: There's maybe, I mean, autonomy is a big deal, right?
• 18:18
  Speaker2: So maybe if there was a way
• 18:21
  Speaker2: to basically say, hey, this is a service that you're providing,
• 18:26
  Speaker2: just let us know who your pastors are and we could help you kind of like validate
• 18:30
  Speaker2: like pastors coming in and we could help you validate and stuff like that, right?
• 18:35
  Speaker2: And maybe those are some of the things that, you know, as at a denomination
• 18:39
  Speaker2: level, maybe they could help.
• 18:42
  Speaker2: The real thing that can help is pastors without a call to pastor.
• 18:47
  Speaker3: Amen.
• 18:48
  Speaker1: Well, I couldn't have paid Samuel in six packs of our favorite soda better as a setup.
• 18:56
  Speaker1: I did not, but I do want to say for our listeners who are listening to this,
• 19:02
  Speaker1: if you are listening to this and you go, hey, I don't know that our church needs a renew process.
• 19:08
  Speaker1: This. We talk on our Mission Advance team about four core strategic priorities.
• 19:15
  Speaker1: And our third strategic priority is what we call STIR.
• 19:19
  Speaker1: It's an acronym from Hebrews 10, 24, where we want to stir up one another to love and good works.
• 19:26
  Speaker1: And STIR is an acronym for strategy, training, insight, and inquiry.
• 19:32
  Speaker1: And guess what? We do offer those same tools that we offer in a package format
• 19:38
  Speaker1: in our renew process, we do offer them to churches.
• 19:42
  Speaker1: We can coach your pastor search process. We can give you the assessment tools,
• 19:47
  Speaker1: and we do do that with churches.
• 19:49
  Speaker1: So thank you, Samuel, for that setup. I don't think that was deliberate,
• 19:52
  Speaker1: but I'm grateful for that.
• 19:54
  Speaker1: Tammy, back to you. What does it feel like as a church member to watch the process
• 20:00
  Speaker1: of decline, experience it, And what do you think pastors and leaders aren't
• 20:05
  Speaker1: getting about how it feels as a church member?
• 20:10
  Speaker0: So I want to go back to what you guys were just talking about,
• 20:12
  Speaker0: which is that I think that if we would have run the discovery part of the renew
• 20:17
  Speaker0: process in 1970, 1980, we might
• 20:22
  Speaker0: have put in place the processes and never ended up where we ended up.
• 20:24
  Speaker0: So I would encourage any church, even if you consider yourself healthy,
• 20:28
  Speaker0: I think that every, I don't know if it's every year, but every couple of years
• 20:31
  Speaker0: that you should go through this process of this, the stir thing that you're
• 20:35
  Speaker0: talking about, or the discovery part of the renew process
• 20:38
  Speaker0: to help you understand when you're sort of becoming too insular, right?
• 20:43
  Speaker0: To understanding like kind of how the world is changing and the things that
• 20:47
  Speaker0: you're going to need to do to matter to people. Right.
• 20:50
  Speaker0: And as somebody in the pew, you know, I actually had an opportunity to be part
• 20:54
  Speaker0: of a church that went from 400 to a thousand.
• 20:56
  Speaker0: And, and then I think it even got maybe as high as 2000 people.
• 21:00
  Speaker0: And I remember that was really exciting. And I wanted to invite people and there
• 21:04
  Speaker0: was a lot of ministry going on.
• 21:06
  Speaker0: And, and I was, to me, it felt really like a happy time. And the only reason
• 21:10
  Speaker0: why I probably, like I said, that I even stayed at Oak Grove was because we
• 21:14
  Speaker0: were in the COVID lockdown. I was with my mom and my stepfather and I was just being with them.
• 21:19
  Speaker0: I wasn't necessarily being at the church, but I was being with them at the church.
• 21:22
  Speaker0: And I had matured enough in my faith that I could kind of get fed the word the
• 21:27
  Speaker0: way I needed it because I wouldn't say I was getting that at church.
• 21:30
  Speaker0: And I so but I will tell you it's sad it's sad to be in the pews and to see an you know a,
• 21:38
  Speaker0: church it's empty and then and then you have like you have critical mass let's
• 21:42
  Speaker0: say you have 30 people and all of a sudden it's 25 and then it's 20.
• 21:47
  Speaker0: And you and you're sitting there going how do we survive this and you know for
• 21:52
  Speaker0: our church we were fortunate in that we were able to do some rental stuff to,
• 21:58
  Speaker0: because without that the church would have died years ago right so so we god
• 22:03
  Speaker0: really i i believe god wants our church to be thriving because he,
• 22:07
  Speaker0: He's keeping the doors open. He's keeping us alive. But this is our opportunity to do something.
• 22:12
  Speaker0: Like we're, you know, we're kind of running out of time because as Pastor Chris
• 22:16
  Speaker0: knows, you know, our congregation is getting older and older by the day.
• 22:20
  Speaker0: So we got to do something soon, right?
• 22:23
  Speaker0: Or we got to do it now. So yeah, it's a bummer. It's a bummer.
• 22:26
  Speaker0: And like I said, I kind of thought that it was okay for a church to be small,
• 22:30
  Speaker0: but I kind of realized through this process that churches, that is not true
• 22:33
  Speaker0: because as the church declines, the ministry, your ability to do ministry declines.
• 22:38
  Speaker0: If you don't have the ability to do ministry, people aren't going to want to
• 22:41
  Speaker0: bring people to those churches.
• 22:43
  Speaker1: Yeah. Two words that we use rather than small or big or some people,
• 22:50
  Speaker1: I've even been accused of this.
• 22:51
  Speaker1: We had a church pull out of our renew process because I happened to use a megachurch
• 22:58
  Speaker1: as an illustration. And their argument was that I was trying to tell them they
• 23:03
  Speaker1: had to become a megachurch.
• 23:04
  Speaker1: So I just want to clarify for our listeners that what we want to talk about
• 23:08
  Speaker1: are, is your church sustainable and is it persistently fruitful?
• 23:13
  Speaker1: And so there can be sustainable congregations that are being fruitful that are
• 23:18
  Speaker1: not big. They're not huge, but there are.
• 23:22
  Speaker0: They need to be a certain size, right? I mean, like, I feel like if you started
• 23:25
  Speaker0: saying, hey, you know, if you can get to 200 and sort of retain that level and
• 23:29
  Speaker0: you have younger families coming in and you're watching sort of your age of
• 23:32
  Speaker0: your population of your church.
• 23:34
  Speaker0: Like, to me, that's that's that's that's good.
• 23:37
  Speaker0: Right. But once you get below 50 and especially when you don't have any younger families.
• 23:42
  Speaker1: Like it is you are you are naming those dynamics so, so well.
• 23:46
  Speaker1: It is exceedingly challenging.
• 23:49
  Speaker1: We've sort of set a benchmark for minimal sustainability in the Bay Area at
• 23:57
  Speaker1: around 120 people actively attending the church.
• 24:03
  Speaker1: You've got to be somewhere between 120 to 150 active attendees to really be sustainable.
• 24:09
  Speaker1: But at the same time, you want to say, hey, some churches are just going to
• 24:12
  Speaker1: be very good churches at 200 people.
• 24:16
  Speaker1: And they're going to raise up leaders, they're going to multiply,
• 24:18
  Speaker1: they're going to reach out, they're going to multiply.
• 24:20
  Speaker1: But it's very hard to do that once you start reaching below that 120 person line.
• 24:26
  Speaker1: And the reason why is just because if you only have four people on your child
• 24:32
  Speaker1: care team and one gets sick on a Sunday and one
• 24:35
  Speaker1: Has to leave for work somewhere and then one of those other people moves suddenly,
• 24:40
  Speaker1: now all of a sudden you're in crisis in that department.
• 24:44
  Speaker1: And it happens over and over again across the church, right?
• 24:47
  Speaker1: And so while we want to emphasize the idea of sending capacity,
• 24:51
  Speaker1: churches reaching to a place where
• 24:53
  Speaker1: I'm like, hey, listen, you want to get your church to the place where you guys
• 24:57
  Speaker1: are raising up the next generation of pastors, missionaries,
• 25:01
  Speaker1: replanters, and those things.
• 25:03
  Speaker1: And that can happen at 120. It can happen at 150.
• 25:08
  Speaker1: It can happen at, praise God, there are churches that do reach that 1,500 and
• 25:13
  Speaker1: beyond, and that's great, but that's not most churches.
• 25:17
  Speaker1: And we're not talking about becoming a megachurch. We are saying we want you
• 25:22
  Speaker1: to flourish and we want you to be sustainable in very real, pragmatic ways.
• 25:28
  Speaker1: Pastor Chase, what's this conversation stirring up in you? What?
• 25:33
  Speaker3: What kind of things can an ordinary church member, not a pastor,
• 25:37
  Speaker3: not a leader, you know, well, hopefully a leader of some sort, but not a pastor.
• 25:43
  Speaker3: What kind of things can an ordinary church member do to help renew a declining or plateaued church?
• 25:52
  Speaker2: I think the biggest problem that I see right today is how people perceive church in the sense.
• 26:02
  Speaker2: Unfortunately if you think of church as something where you consume it could
• 26:08
  Speaker2: be consuming preaching right it could be consuming services it could be consuming
• 26:13
  Speaker2: i mean you could take just about
• 26:14
  Speaker2: anything child care right like recently i was seeing something but as
• 26:21
  Speaker2: If we continue in that posture i don't think it is healthy at all instead for
• 26:26
  Speaker2: every single one of us i liked how Tammy started off this by saying
• 26:32
  Speaker2: God placed her in this church, and I think every single one of us has been placed
• 26:39
  Speaker2: in the church that we are at for a purpose.
• 26:42
  Speaker2: And the question is, what is that purpose, right? What is God's will?
• 26:46
  Speaker2: What does God want me to do in this church in doing it?
• 26:51
  Speaker2: I'm not saying go do 100 projects or something, right, like start different
• 26:56
  Speaker2: programs. No, not really.
• 26:57
  Speaker2: But why did God place me in this church?
• 27:01
  Speaker2: What does he want me to do here? Because at the end of the day,
• 27:04
  Speaker2: there's so many verses, I think, even Hebrews or Colossians that talk about,
• 27:10
  Speaker2: we are here to build each other up.
• 27:12
  Speaker2: And it's not pastor's job, right? Like to build every single one of us up.
• 27:16
  Speaker2: It is every single one of our job to make sure that all of us are building each
• 27:22
  Speaker2: other and growing together.
• 27:24
  Speaker2: And I think if we start focusing away from being consumers to being a church,
• 27:32
  Speaker2: renewal would follow. Revival would follow.
• 27:35
  Speaker3: That's great, Samuel. And I will say this before we go to Tammy,
• 27:40
  Speaker3: just give me just a second to jump up on my soapbox and holler and get all activated.
• 27:48
  Speaker3: I sort of intentionally put ordinary church member in there to be antagonistic
• 27:55
  Speaker3: Because I don't think there's any such thing as an ordinary church member.
• 27:58
  Speaker3: One of the things that I firmly believe in the church is that sometimes we're
• 28:03
  Speaker3: way too pastor-centric.
• 28:05
  Speaker3: And I think I can say that as a pastor, somebody who's been in pastoral ministry for 30 years,
• 28:10
  Speaker3: The pastor, I think the greatest secular equivalent comparison to who a pastor
• 28:17
  Speaker3: is, is a football coach or any kind of coach.
• 28:20
  Speaker3: Because Ephesians 4, one of my favorite chapters in the Bible,
• 28:24
  Speaker3: Ephesians 4, 11 and 12, Paul says, God, the Holy Spirit gave some to be apostles,
• 28:30
  Speaker3: prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
• 28:33
  Speaker3: What's the role of the pastor and teacher? to equip the saints for the work
• 28:39
  Speaker3: of the ministry to build up the body of Christ.
• 28:42
  Speaker3: Now, how much of an impact is coach Nick Saban going to have on the game on a Saturday morning?
• 28:49
  Speaker3: Well, a lot when he was coaching, but he's not going to actually be out there
• 28:54
  Speaker3: in the trenches blocking, tackling and throwing and catching and all of that.
• 28:59
  Speaker3: And so many of us have this idea that the church hinges on the pastor,
• 29:04
  Speaker3: but the pastors are not the primary players. They're the primary equippers.
• 29:08
  Speaker3: Yes, they should do ministry too.
• 29:10
  Speaker3: They should clean toilets. They should evangelize all of that.
• 29:13
  Speaker3: But the bottom line is the church goes forward by the
• 29:19
  Speaker3: ministry, the Holy Spirit empowered ministry of these extraordinary church members
• 29:25
  Speaker3: who were equipped ideally by the pastor and teacher.
• 29:28
  Speaker3: So there is no ordinary Christian. There is no ordinary church member.
• 29:33
  Speaker3: Same question over to you, Tammy.
• 29:35
  Speaker3: What can extraordinary church members do to help declining and plateauing churches?
• 29:42
  Speaker0: This question actually kind of made me exhausted because that's what I sit in
• 29:46
  Speaker0: the pew all the time thinking, what can I do? What can I do, right?
• 29:49
  Speaker0: And to me, without, and I know Pastor Chris and I have talked about this, but
• 29:55
  Speaker0: without having a pastor kind of setting the stage setting the strategy and and
• 30:00
  Speaker0: rallying the troops to do stuff I just feel like we're kind of listless and I I,
• 30:06
  Speaker0: I just feel like, so what can they do right now until we get a pastor,
• 30:11
  Speaker0: a full-time pastor in place, is I know they need to pray for us and pray for the church.
• 30:16
  Speaker0: I know that they need to get informed, so know what's going on,
• 30:20
  Speaker0: so when we're voting on stuff, that they can be prepared to vote.
• 30:24
  Speaker0: Because we had some contentious conversations. We had even voting to do the
• 30:29
  Speaker0: renew process and the replanter process.
• 30:31
  Speaker0: We weren't, Pastor Chris and I weren't completely convinced we were going to
• 30:34
  Speaker0: get the votes, right? But thank God people were paying attention, right?
• 30:38
  Speaker0: So it's paying attention, understanding, and then trusting that the leaders
• 30:44
  Speaker0: that you've picked are working through the mechanics of getting stuff rolling, right?
• 30:49
  Speaker0: I liken it to you need to let them fix the engine before you can all get in
• 30:54
  Speaker0: and go somewhere, right?
• 30:55
  Speaker0: And the engine is corroded. It's falling apart.
• 31:00
  Speaker0: It's got major issues of things we need to fix. And I'm really grateful for
• 31:05
  Speaker0: our congregation because I don't know why, but a lot of them trust me.
• 31:09
  Speaker0: I don't know why, because I don't, I, they've been here decades.
• 31:13
  Speaker0: I just showed up, but I think they sense that I'm really trying to help the church do what's right.
• 31:18
  Speaker0: And I have no other, I, I'm not, I don't get paid. I have, this is all volunteer.
• 31:23
  Speaker0: This is just that I love the Lord and I would like to see this church.
• 31:27
  Speaker0: I wanted to go back to being 200 people where they had a children's ministry.
• 31:31
  Speaker0: Like, we actually have the facilities for it. You know, we have the rooms.
• 31:35
  Speaker0: And there's another church that read from us that uses those rooms.
• 31:39
  Speaker0: And that's wonderful. But I'm like, my goodness, it's like this church used
• 31:42
  Speaker0: to be a vibrant church. And now it's not. So I don't know what's going to happen. We'll see.
• 31:49
  Speaker0: But yeah, so I just think pray, be engaged, pay attention.
• 31:53
  Speaker0: And then when the pastor or the group ask, you know, for you to help, if you can, you should.
• 31:59
  Speaker0: But like I mentioned, we have serious health issues going on in our church right
• 32:02
  Speaker0: now. So it's hard to get stuff done.
• 32:04
  Speaker1: Guys, I have so loved this conversation that we are having. I am conscious,
• 32:08
  Speaker1: though, that our time for recording is drawing to a close. So we're going to
• 32:13
  Speaker1: wrap up with a final question.
• 32:16
  Speaker1: As you look into what is happening around you right now at your church,
• 32:22
  Speaker1: what signs of genuine renewal or signs that give you hope
• 32:29
  Speaker1: have you already seen?
• 32:31
  Speaker1: And I'm, you know, it'd be fine if you want to give us, you know, some practical things.
• 32:37
  Speaker1: But what, when you look at it and you just go, I think God's beginning to do
• 32:42
  Speaker1: something here. Well, I think God is beginning to move in a way that we hadn't seen before.
• 32:48
  Speaker1: If any, what signs might you be seeing right now in your church context that
• 32:54
  Speaker1: you go, I think God is on the move and God's doing some things that we didn't see before.
• 32:59
  Speaker1: And I'm excited to see where this is going to go. Tammy, we'll start with you.
• 33:04
  Speaker0: Okay. So maybe, maybe signs of some hope is that we got the process approved
• 33:09
  Speaker0: and we got a board and we had our first board meeting. So like that was long
• 33:12
  Speaker0: time, you know, waiting for that to happen.
• 33:14
  Speaker1: And that's not a, that's not a small thing.
• 33:18
  Speaker0: No, it was, that was a lot. It was, it was a lot.
• 33:20
  Speaker0: And then I know this is going to sound really trivial, but we decided the board
• 33:24
  Speaker0: agreed that we should remove this playground.
• 33:27
  Speaker0: And I loved the feedback about, you know, it's not a good idea to do that,
• 33:31
  Speaker0: that people are going to feel like you're abandoning families,
• 33:35
  Speaker0: we should put up a sign. And so then, you know, one of the pastors,
• 33:38
  Speaker0: he has a, and they kind of asked me to do it. And I'm like,
• 33:42
  Speaker0: I don't have design skills, you know, like I was kind of like,
• 33:44
  Speaker0: why am I getting asked to do this?
• 33:46
  Speaker0: But anyways, one of the pastors on the board was like, I'll make it for you.
• 33:49
  Speaker0: And he did. And it was, and it's wonderful. And hopefully we'll finally get it.
• 33:52
  Speaker0: It took, there was, there was a couple of issues. And so hopefully we'll get it soon.
• 33:55
  Speaker0: But that to me felt like, even though it's a very slow start,
• 34:00
  Speaker0: like it felt like, okay, there's some, something moving and that I wasn't there,
• 34:04
  Speaker0: but I heard they recently baptized somebody who would come to our church in the last six months.
• 34:08
  Speaker0: I mean, that's something, you know, but I still, we're still a church in decline,
• 34:14
  Speaker0: right? So until, you know, I feel like until we get that first young family
• 34:19
  Speaker0: that comes and actually stays that we're a church in decline and we'll see.
• 34:24
  Speaker3: All right.
• 34:24
  Speaker0: This is God's property. So let's see what he wants to do.
• 34:28
  Speaker1: That's awesome. Samuel, how about you? Early signs of genuine renewal,
• 34:34
  Speaker1: hope, things that go beyond just those ordinary things we might count?
• 34:41
  Speaker2: So a couple of things, right? A few things. From a service point of view,
• 34:46
  Speaker2: I think, in a sense like the way we conduct worship service and so on,
• 34:52
  Speaker2: things have changed a lot to focus more on rare, especially from the point of view of Renew.
• 35:00
  Speaker2: We started incorporating corporate prayer as part of worship service.
• 35:06
  Speaker2: And this was just before we, I mean, a few months before we had to make some
• 35:11
  Speaker2: decisions, especially around Renew. And we were thinking we should pray as a church.
• 35:15
  Speaker2: And what better time than let's do it during the worship.
• 35:19
  Speaker2: And it's kind of strange, but we had a complete random stranger show up suddenly in our church.
• 35:26
  Speaker2: And he attended for a few months, maybe, and he wanted to become a member.
• 35:32
  Speaker2: Apparently, someone told him, you must go to Calvary. He came from Europe or something, he says.
• 35:37
  Speaker2: And someone said, you must go to Calvary. And I have a doubt,
• 35:40
  Speaker2: maybe they meant chapel, but he was here with us.
• 35:45
  Speaker2: I had an opportunity, like, since he wanted to become a member,
• 35:48
  Speaker2: I had an opportunity to sit down and talk with him. Like, you know,
• 35:52
  Speaker2: what does he even know? What does it mean to become a member?
• 35:55
  Speaker2: And so we had that conversation and he decided and
• 36:01
  Speaker2: he got baptized the pastor joshua baptized him he's moved to florida but that
• 36:06
  Speaker2: was very strange coincidence while we were going through
• 36:11
  Speaker2: so to me there are probably a bunch of things like that which are it might look
• 36:16
  Speaker2: small like i was trying to quantify some of these things being a very small church if
• 36:22
  Speaker2: let's say one person says, I want to do more than what I'm already doing.
• 36:27
  Speaker2: And I'm not talking about the core. The core is always ready to do way more
• 36:31
  Speaker2: than what any single person should do, right?
• 36:34
  Speaker2: I see that too. And I love the fact that people are actually stepping up and
• 36:40
  Speaker2: trying to see what else they can do, what else they can help with.
• 36:45
  Speaker2: So yeah, so lots of lots of positive changes. And of course,
• 36:50
  Speaker2: The best one, I think, is we don't have to call 911 for pulpit supply.
• 36:57
  Speaker0: Yeah, praise God for that process.
• 36:59
  Speaker3: Guys, I think this has been a very beneficial conversation for us.
• 37:05
  Speaker3: So often, I'm a history guy, and so often the story of battles in history
• 37:11
  Speaker3: is told by the higher-ups, but not necessarily by the people in the trenches
• 37:17
  Speaker3: who are doing all the work and making all the sacrifice and
• 37:22
  Speaker3: pouring out their blood, sweat, and tears.
• 37:24
  Speaker3: So I think what we have today is letters from the trenches, observations from the front lines of
• 37:32
  Speaker3: the battle, to not have to be too dramatic, of the church renewal and revitalization
• 37:38
  Speaker3: process, which is not an easy process.
• 37:41
  Speaker3: It's fraught with peril, but absolutely necessary because the alternative is
• 37:47
  Speaker3: just to wither away and die.
• 37:49
  Speaker3: And I can tell both of you, Tammy in particular, you are resistant to that idea
• 37:54
  Speaker3: as well you should be, especially in a time right now when so many churches are closing.
• 38:00
  Speaker3: I really do think, barring a clear word from the Lord, church members who are
• 38:05
  Speaker3: in declined churches should not just go
• 38:10
  Speaker3: gently and quietly into that good night, but they should seek the light
• 38:17
  Speaker3: of Jesus and the ministry of the Holy Spirit and actually do everything in their
• 38:22
  Speaker3: human power and in their praying power to
• 38:25
  Speaker3: See a turnaround happening.
• 38:27
  Speaker3: And I'm so glad to be part of a association that values that and understands that.
• 38:35
  Speaker3: The importance of churches not fading away, but doing the necessary work they
• 38:42
  Speaker3: need to do to step forward.
• 38:44
  Speaker3: So thank you guys for your time. Thank you for your efforts.
• 38:47
  Speaker3: May the Lord bless the revitalization process at both of your churches and make it fruitful.
• 38:54
  Speaker3: And maybe in a year or so, or six months, however long it is,
• 38:57
  Speaker3: we'll have a catch up and see how many further stages you guys are down the road.
• 39:04
  Speaker2: Thank you, Pastor Chase. Thank you, Chris. This has been really educational.
• 39:08
  Speaker2: And Tammy, I have a bunch of follow-up questions,
• 39:11
  Speaker0: But thank you.
• 39:14
  Speaker3: All right. God bless you guys. On to a soda review for Pastor Christopher and I.
• 39:19
  Speaker1: So, Pastor Chase, what is the king of fruits? The king of fruits.
• 39:27
  Speaker1: We know about the king of kings, the lord of lords what is the king of fruits
• 39:34
  Speaker1: lion fruit no the king of fruits coconut is is
• 39:40
  Speaker1: no no no the blue whale fruits no the king of fruits is the dorian the dorian
• 39:48
  Speaker1: now i don't have you ever had dorian
• 39:51
  Speaker3: Now you're not talking about that disgusting fruit that in april 2018 18 evacuated an
• 40:01
  Speaker3: entire Melbourne university library of five or 600 people because there was
• 40:08
  Speaker3: one durian that was smelling bad?
• 40:11
  Speaker1: That is correct. And it's not just one durian that smells bad.
• 40:16
  Speaker1: All durian smells bad. In fact, the durian fruit is banned from all Southeast
• 40:23
  Speaker1: Asian airlines. You cannot open it up. You can't bring it on board the aircraft.
• 40:28
  Speaker1: Singapore's public transportation system prohibits durians being transported
• 40:34
  Speaker1: there. And most hotels ban it.
• 40:37
  Speaker1: In any of their public lobbies because the odor lingers there of the durian fruit.
• 40:45
  Speaker3: So you picked this beverage and I have a question for you and I charge you to tell the truth.
• 40:52
  Speaker3: Did you pick this beverage? Because about three weeks ago on the podcast,
• 40:57
  Speaker3: I called you out for your comments against a Chinese beverage and gave your
• 41:02
  Speaker3: address to the Chinese Communist Party. Is this payback for that?
• 41:06
  Speaker1: It might be payback. It might be.
• 41:10
  Speaker1: I will tell you that I grew up having to eat occasionally durian ice cream,
• 41:18
  Speaker1: durian candy, and durian fruit as a child.
• 41:22
  Speaker1: And this is one of those things you would not want to have experienced in your childhood in Alabama.
• 41:30
  Speaker3: Yeah. Another Indonesia is a lot cooler than Alabama story.
• 41:33
  Speaker1: Yeah, it is. It is so not cooler.
• 41:38
  Speaker1: I promise you, there is not a fruit in the state of Alabama that tastes as bad
• 41:42
  Speaker1: or smells as bad as durian.
• 41:44
  Speaker1: Durian, when it is incredibly ripe, has a cross smell between methamphetamine,
• 41:52
  Speaker1: rotten socks and rotting bodies.
• 41:57
  Speaker3: What? Why are we drinking this?
• 42:01
  Speaker1: Because it is one of the most popular fruits in all of the world.
• 42:07
  Speaker1: The market in China is exploding around durian and farmers in Vietnam and Thailand
• 42:15
  Speaker1: and Malaysia are having to expand their durian crops. The Musang King crop.
• 42:22
  Speaker1: Variant of the durian fruit coming out of Malaysia is very expensive.
• 42:27
  Speaker1: People will pay ridiculous amounts of money for this fruit.
• 42:31
  Speaker3: I don't believe you. Have you not, Pastor Christopher, had enough in your lifetime,
• 42:37
  Speaker3: enough rotten bodies and methamphetamine?
• 42:40
  Speaker1: I have never had the methamphetamines, however. Okay.
• 42:43
  Speaker3: But you have had a few rotten bodies?
• 42:46
  Speaker1: I've had. That's telling. I've been around a few of those.
• 42:50
  Speaker1: It's also famously been compared in both odor and flavor to a very sharp cheese,
• 42:58
  Speaker1: like one of those really stinky European cheeses, crossed with a mushy onion.
• 43:04
  Speaker3: Why would we drink this? Are you a sadist? Is this your way of getting out of
• 43:10
  Speaker3: purgatory, like you mentioned a few episodes ago?
• 43:13
  Speaker1: Well, because, Pastor Chase, a fruit is so popular around the world that this
• 43:21
  Speaker1: fruit is, I think we have to try it as part of our objective soda tasting.
• 43:27
  Speaker3: You know what else is popular around the world?
• 43:30
  Speaker1: What's that, sir?
• 43:31
  Speaker3: Murder. Leprosy.
• 43:33
  Speaker1: Murder.
• 43:34
  Speaker3: Schistosomiasis. Tuberculosis.
• 43:37
  Speaker1: I have no idea what that is.
• 43:38
  Speaker3: Cancer. Those things are popular. I don't want any of them.
• 43:42
  Speaker1: Well, you know, can I just tell you a few more facts here that would steer you away from this fruit?
• 43:49
  Speaker3: Wonderful.
• 43:50
  Speaker1: They are massively heavy and the trees are quite large.
• 43:54
  Speaker1: The mature fruits can weigh, you know, 20 pounds, 15, 20 pounds.
• 43:59
  Speaker3: So it can kill a person in a variety of ways.
• 44:02
  Speaker1: Right. And the word duri that is in the front part of durian
• 44:09
  Speaker1: is the word for thorn or spike in both indonesian and malay so it is a cupboard
• 44:16
  Speaker1: in spikes fruit that smells like death and drops from trees on top of people yeah
• 44:22
  Speaker3: And not only that if you look at the bottle
• 44:24
  Speaker1: Itself it just looks
• 44:26
  Speaker3: Like it's filled with little globules of cutrescence and bacteria and
• 44:32
  Speaker3: anthrax and pus. And it's got that. This is terrifying.
• 44:39
  Speaker3: I'm going to have to go to my counselor after this.
• 44:41
  Speaker1: Yeah, probably. So this particular version that we were able to source comes
• 44:47
  Speaker1: from a very old Japanese beverage company, the Tomomasu Company.
• 44:54
  Speaker1: It's in the Saga Prefecture on the island of Kyushu, and they have more than
• 45:00
  Speaker1: 120 years history making beverages.
• 45:04
  Speaker1: So they are specialists in this, and they are famous, wait for it,
• 45:09
  Speaker1: Pastor Chase, for incredibly realistic fruit sodas.
• 45:14
  Speaker3: You mean they use chemicals to mimic their fruits?
• 45:19
  Speaker1: Well, there is no, It says zero juice in here, but they are known also for making
• 45:26
  Speaker1: their beverages with very good water.
• 45:31
  Speaker3: That's great. What percentage of rotten bodies and methamphetamines is in the
• 45:36
  Speaker3: soda? Does it say on the label?
• 45:38
  Speaker1: It does not say what percentage of that.
• 45:42
  Speaker1: But the good news is that it has carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup,
• 45:48
  Speaker1: thank you, and artificial flavors.
• 45:52
  Speaker1: But if it is flavored like the durian ice cream and candies I was forced to
• 45:57
  Speaker1: eat as a child and discovered my lifelong lack of durian flavor.
• 46:04
  Speaker1: I do want to say this. I have many friends who love, love, love the taste of durian.
• 46:09
  Speaker1: And if you are a listener and you love, love, love the taste of durian,
• 46:13
  Speaker1: I apologize for Pastor Chase's insensitivities tastes here, even as I seek to
• 46:20
  Speaker1: describe this soda accurately.
• 46:22
  Speaker3: Also, I'm sorry that I don't like something that tastes like methamphetamines in rotten bodies.
• 46:27
  Speaker1: But we haven't tasted it yet. Yet.
• 46:31
  Speaker3: Pastor chase okay that's that's true you know what i'm gonna man up and i'm
• 46:35
  Speaker3: gonna give it a try let's do it
• 46:38
  Speaker1: Here we go let's do it let's give it a twist here
• 46:41
  Speaker3: Yeah buddy
• 46:42
  Speaker1: Oh oh it's it's very carbonated
• 46:45
  Speaker3: It stinks yucky
• 46:48
  Speaker1: Oh my god
• 46:50
  Speaker3: I don't i don't know yeah i'm not sure i'm ready to taste that
• 46:56
  Speaker1: Oh it smells just like the durian fruit it does
• 47:00
  Speaker3: It's totally like i imagined
• 47:02
  Speaker1: This is and don't you love the glass bottle of this oh yeah
• 47:06
  Speaker3: It's uh i can barely breathe right now
• 47:10
  Speaker1: It's authentic you should you should definitely save some of this for your family
• 47:15
  Speaker3: To try i'm gonna save a lot of it for my family they're gonna be so excited
• 47:21
  Speaker3: but hey let's pour it out Are you ready?
• 47:24
  Speaker1: Yeah, you pour that out and you take a big...
• 47:27
  Speaker3: Okay, whoa, that's just kind of clear looking.
• 47:32
  Speaker1: Oh, okay. I'm going to go ahead and let's try it now, Pastor Chase.
• 47:36
  Speaker1: Let's try it. Let's try it. Cold, cold.
• 47:41
  Speaker3: Yeah, that's about as gross as a legend to me.
• 47:47
  Speaker3: That's the worst soda I've had in a long time.
• 47:51
  Speaker3: Oh, gross.
• 47:52
  Speaker1: Hey, hey, wait a second.
• 47:55
  Speaker3: Let me try some more.
• 47:56
  Speaker1: Wait, you've got the lid on the bottle. What? That's crazy.
• 48:00
  Speaker3: No.
• 48:01
  Speaker1: You're not drinking this.
• 48:03
  Speaker3: It's open, see?
• 48:04
  Speaker1: That's not a bottle. That's a can. We're drinking this out of a bottle,
• 48:10
  Speaker1: and you don't have that bottle. Oh, but you've closed it up,
• 48:13
  Speaker1: so you don't even have to smell it.
• 48:14
  Speaker3: I wanted to save it for my kids.
• 48:16
  Speaker1: No. No, no. You are going to taste this, because I have now taken two swigs
• 48:21
  Speaker1: of this delicious Tomomasu in Rio.
• 48:25
  Speaker1: Please. There you go. Oh, God.
• 48:29
  Speaker1: There you go.
• 48:31
  Speaker3: It's so bad.
• 48:35
  Speaker3: I'm so bad oh stay stay over there let me
• 48:44
  Speaker3: get my phone i'm gonna dial in nine one and hover my finger i'm not pouring
• 48:50
  Speaker3: this into my cup i don't want my cup to smell like this
• 48:53
  Speaker1: Hey brother fill your cup and let it
• 48:54
  Speaker3: Overflow No. Oh.
• 48:59
  Speaker1: Take another whiff of it. It really helps. Oh, God. It's bad.
• 49:05
  Speaker3: What?
• 49:08
  Speaker1: It's a clear soda.
• 49:10
  Speaker3: No, it's not. It tastes like the thing I said it smelled like.
• 49:14
  Speaker3: Exactly. I mean, I've never tasted one before, but it tastes exactly like I
• 49:18
  Speaker3: would think one of those tastes. This is gross.
• 49:23
  Speaker1: This is one of the most popular flavors in the world.
• 49:26
  Speaker3: People are crazy.
• 49:27
  Speaker1: People love this. I think in a future episode, I need to get some Musang King
• 49:33
  Speaker1: actual durian, and you and I need to eat it on the show together for the joy of our listeners.
• 49:40
  Speaker3: Okay. Well, let me know. That'll be like my lethal weapon day before my retirement
• 49:44
  Speaker3: as a podcast host, so I'll go out.
• 49:46
  Speaker1: Okay. Now, I'm just going to say, here's my evaluation.
• 49:52
  Speaker1: The smell is worse than the taste.
• 49:56
  Speaker1: It does have, having tasted, unfortunately, a good bit of durian,
• 50:02
  Speaker1: both as a child and as an adult missionary, where I was forced to,
• 50:06
  Speaker1: for politeness sake, eat durian.
• 50:09
  Speaker1: It does smell authentically like a mild durian, by the way.
• 50:14
  Speaker1: This would be very mild. And it does have the sweetness, the custardy sweetness
• 50:21
  Speaker1: that can be found in the durian fruit.
• 50:24
  Speaker1: That being said, it does taste like chewing your grandmother's socks.
• 50:30
  Speaker3: Come on, Earl. How would you know, Pastor Christopher, what that tastes like?
• 50:38
  Speaker3: Inquiring minds want to know. Is this an Indonesian custom?
• 50:42
  Speaker1: I don't know that I can find too many other things to parallel it to.
• 50:47
  Speaker3: Okay, fair enough.
• 50:49
  Speaker1: But, Pastor Chase, what are your tasting notes? I'm curious.
• 50:53
  Speaker1: You've got to give that a really good taste.
• 50:55
  Speaker3: Let me give you my smelling notes with a little bit of a story. Sure.
• 51:00
  Speaker3: I did something about 15 years ago that I regret to this day.
• 51:05
  Speaker3: My daughter, Abby, and I were walking around Trustville, Alabama.
• 51:11
  Speaker3: My oldest daughter and Abby's sister, Chloe, was practicing soccer.
• 51:15
  Speaker3: And Abby and I were waiting for her to get done. We were walking around Trustville,
• 51:19
  Speaker3: Alabama. We found ourselves in a historic cemetery in Trestle,
• 51:24
  Speaker3: Alabama that had graves dating back to the middle 1800s.
• 51:32
  Speaker3: And again, stupid things do. We found an above-ground crypt.
• 51:37
  Speaker3: Of a person that was buried in the late 1800s and somebody had knocked a hole in it very tragically.
• 51:44
  Speaker3: And I put my nose up to that hole and smelled.
• 51:50
  Speaker3: And what I smelled, I remember, and it smelled exactly like this beverage from
• 51:58
  Speaker3: the seventh floor of Hades.
• 52:01
  Speaker3: And I have never forgotten that smell and how stupid I felt after doing it.
• 52:06
  Speaker3: And now this is a great reminder to not do stupid things in terms of the taste.
• 52:13
  Speaker3: It does taste better than it smells, but that's, that's like saying the bite
• 52:19
  Speaker3: of Eastern diamondback rattlesnake is slightly less toxic than the bite of an
• 52:24
  Speaker3: Eastern brown Australian snake.
• 52:27
  Speaker3: I mean, it may be true, but you don't want to be bit by either one of those
• 52:31
  Speaker3: things. You don't want to drink this beverage.
• 52:34
  Speaker3: Even if, this is worse to me, Pastor Christopher, than Lester's Fixin's Ranch Soda.
• 52:42
  Speaker1: Wow. Okay. All right. So that is a big gauntlet that you have just thrown down.
• 52:48
  Speaker1: And now I am here to affirm that this, in fact, is worse than the Lester's Fixin's Ranch Soda.
• 52:57
  Speaker1: I think we need to take one more taste. Give it one more whiff here,
• 53:00
  Speaker1: Pastor Chase, before you cap that.
• 53:02
  Speaker3: I'm no coward.
• 53:03
  Speaker1: Oh, yeah. Give that a good, deep breath, deep breath smell. So bad.
• 53:08
  Speaker3: Well, folks, we're not exaggerating here.
• 53:11
  Speaker1: Oh, no. We invite you to try the Tomomatsu. It tastes horrible.
• 53:16
  Speaker1: Well, Pastor Chase, I've got one more durian story for you. I got a bunch,
• 53:21
  Speaker1: but I'm going to give you one more here for our listeners today.
• 53:24
  Speaker1: And on September 5th, which was September 5th, obviously just this past week, right? Right.
• 53:32
  Speaker1: 2005, September 5th, 2005, I was working in
• 53:38
  Speaker1: Maidan, North Sumatra, coordinating the INB's disaster relief response for the
• 53:46
  Speaker1: tsunami that had occurred the year before.
• 53:49
  Speaker1: And right near my office, a Boeing 737-200 attempted takeoff and crashed literally
• 53:59
  Speaker1: half a kilometer from my office.
• 54:01
  Speaker1: 500 yards from my office.
• 54:05
  Speaker1: It was a huge tragedy.
• 54:07
  Speaker1: 149 people were killed. There were 100 people on board the aircraft and 49 people
• 54:13
  Speaker1: were killed on the ground.
• 54:15
  Speaker1: Now, what does this have to do? This tragedy of Mandala Airlines flight 091 have to do with Durian?
• 54:22
  Speaker1: The reason the plane crashed in the middle of a crowded city was that the governor
• 54:28
  Speaker1: of North Sumatra had been called to Jakarta and had shown up late at the airport.
• 54:36
  Speaker1: With a present he wanted to bring to all of his governing friends in the capital city of Jakarta.
• 54:43
  Speaker1: And do you know what that present was, Pastor Chase?
• 54:46
  Speaker3: You're not going to tell me it was two tons of durians.
• 54:49
  Speaker1: It was two tons, 2.2 U.S. tons, 2,000 kilograms of durian.
• 54:58
  Speaker1: In fact, of the entire cargo load of 2,749 kilograms, 2,000 kilograms of durians
• 55:07
  Speaker1: were on board that aircraft.
• 55:08
  Speaker1: Now, although the Indonesian version of the NTSB later cleared the durians from
• 55:15
  Speaker1: fault, according to everybody on the ground, the plane was struggling to take
• 55:20
  Speaker1: off with that much durian on board.
• 55:22
  Speaker1: Either that or the pilots were gassed out by the durian and unable to extend
• 55:28
  Speaker1: the flaps on the aircraft. So a real tragedy caused by 2,000 kilograms of durian.
• 55:36
  Speaker3: So Pastor Christopher, you had us drink a beverage today that has literally
• 55:42
  Speaker3: killed people and cleared out university libraries. I appreciate that.
• 55:48
  Speaker3: I award you no stars, and I award this beverage negative five Osteins,
• 55:57
  Speaker3: the lowest possible score, the absolute zero of sodas.
• 56:03
  Speaker1: I am going to withhold that moment because I feel like there might be some future soda.
• 56:08
  Speaker1: I'm going to give this a negative 4.5 Osteins.
• 56:13
  Speaker1: This is a challenging beverage. If you are looking for a challenging beverage,
• 56:18
  Speaker1: to consume. Or if you have friends or family members that you want to entice
• 56:24
  Speaker1: into a miserable experience, I think you ought to pour them a glass of this particular beverage
• 56:30
  Speaker1: and they can consume dirty socks, rotten onions, all kinds of other things.
• 56:37
  Speaker1: And by the way, one thing this has successfully replicated, if you eat fresh
• 56:43
  Speaker1: durian, it causes you to belch and this soda does too. Oh, boy.
• 56:49
  Speaker3: The only soda, Pastor Christopher, I could think that would be worse than this
• 56:53
  Speaker3: one in terms of future scores is Grandpa Strychnine's 100% Pure
• 57:00
  Speaker3: Arsenic and Cyanide Soda, which I would score slightly lower.
• 57:06
  Speaker1: I've heard that cyanide and strychnine have an almond flavor.
• 57:11
  Speaker3: It probably would taste better than this. It might hurt you more,
• 57:15
  Speaker3: but it would probably taste better.
• 57:16
  Speaker1: Oh, I think we ought to cap these things and share it.
• 57:22
  Speaker1: Do you have family members at home that you can invite into sharing this experience with you?
• 57:27
  Speaker3: Not any family members that I hate,
• 57:30
  Speaker1: Unfortunately. Oh, man. Well, some that might have made comments about how you
• 57:35
  Speaker1: dress, in fact, might be.
• 57:37
  Speaker3: Oh, good plan. Good plan.
• 57:41
  Speaker3: Well, I think that's quite enough out of us for now. Next week,
• 57:44
  Speaker3: we have more interviews from people who are on the inside of church revitalization.
• 57:52
  Speaker3: I think you're going to learn a lot about church renewal, church regrowth,
• 57:57
  Speaker3: and addressing weaknesses then.
• 58:00
  Speaker3: Between now and then, check out our website, gcasbc.org.
• 58:06
  Speaker3: Good day to you and Godspeed.