Latest / Auto Collabs / The Tyranny of Over-Disclosure with Brian Maas

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The Tyranny of Over-Disclosure with Brian Maas · Auto Collabs

• 0:00
  Hey, Paul, what's short and stubby and not here? [upbeat music] This is Auto Collabs. [laughs] A chicken nugget. Chicken nuggets. [laughs] And Michael Cirillo. Oh.
• 0:18
  Ah, got him. He's on the other side of the world right now. He is. It's unbelievable. He, he posted about it yesterday. That, that, that man is in the Middle East. He's in Pakistan, I believe. Yep.
• 0:30
  And, [laughs] and he ca- so he can't be here today. He can't be here. He can't be. [laughs] We're so sad. It's, like, one of the very few times where we're not all three together.
• 0:38
  I, like, we love having guests on this podcast, legitimately, but we also love the micro moments that we get with just the three of us to make- It really is... stupid comments about nothing. It, it- So, [laughs]
• 0:51
  Well, with Cirillo, it's, it's this blend because he's always good for some comic relief. Right. Uh, slightly irreverent sometimes. But then he just comes across with, like, the deepest question known to man.
• 1:03
  So, like, you never know- It-... but it's really hot or cold. It's comic relief, total joke, or it's, like, an incredibly serious question. Just something that we can never even think about. Uh- I know...
• 1:12
  speaking of things that we couldn't think about, I, I mean, us being on the East Coast and Central Time Zone, thinking about operating in the West Coast is- Yeah... like, it's like a foreign country in my world.
• 1:24
  It's so crazy how that is. Right? Yes. Yeah.
• 1:27
  Um, so today we've got Brian Maas, uh, the president of the California Auto Dealers Association, and we've gotten the opportunity over the last, I don't know, year now at this point- Yep...
• 1:38
  to just kinda get to know him and Autumn and the marketing team and, and hear exactly what they're doing. They came to us kind of through the More Than Cars channel, um, after seeing that- I got to spend time...
• 1:47
  It was myself, Al, and Jordan got to spend some time with them at their dealer reception at NADA a few weeks back. And the, the moment I walked in there, like, the vibe was different.
• 1:59
  Number one, everyone was, like, dressed really well, and I was like, "Oh, this is California." We're in California now. Welcome to California. Right. Yeah, right. But everybody was super warm.
• 2:05
  Everybody had boat shoes and no socks, and pants that were just- It, they looked better than me-... rolled to the core. Yeah. [laughs]... that's all I can say. They were dressed better than me.
• 2:11
  Um, and, and everybody was just very, like, warm and welcoming and, and was having, you know, fun-loving, but very serious about, like, doing a great job to serve cu- customers.
• 2:22
  And so it kind of brought me right back to the fact, like, yeah, no matter where you go in this industry, right, you see this table stakes of giving the consumer what they want and understanding the importance of giving them a great experience, like- Yep...
• 2:34
  through and through, and serving them well. So, uh, we hope you enjoy this conversation with us and Brian Maas, uh, learn a little bit about the West Coast if you live on the East Coast and you, you don't get there that
• 2:44
  often. [upbeat music] Hey, Brian, it's so good to have you here. Thanks for joining us today on Auto Collabs. Thanks, guys. Happy to be here.
• 2:53
  It was so much fun that, uh, like, some of the ASOTO team got to hang out with the California Auto Dealer Association at the NADA show. Um, you know, it's always tough, right?
• 3:03
  You have these two coasts, and even though it's one industry, uh, you know, going coast to coast is difficult.
• 3:09
  And I have to tell you, spending some time with the California auto dealers, like, in the room, meeting a lot of people, I, I had a feeling.
• 3:16
  I told Kyle, this was like, "Man, we're really m- I feel like we're really missing out." So we're really glad to bring some of that energy, uh, into the ASOTO verse today. Awesome. Happy, happy to join you guys.
• 3:24
  How, how is that, though? Like- [laughs]... when, uh, uh, because I'm sh- you know, so much of our industry right now is...
• 3:34
  A- and, and even just the country, like, looks at California from a retailing landscape, a political landscape, a culture landscape, and so there's a lot driven by what's happening- Mm-hmm... in California.
• 3:46
  But it's like four hours behind everything, I feel like. [laughs] At least in my world. In your world it isn't. It's like, "Ah, we're in the real time."
• 3:52
  But how, how d- like, where does that come into play in, in your world? Do you guys feel that kind of necessity to be at the front and to be talking about the things that are at the front?
• 4:05
  I- Or is it just kinda normal at this point and pace for you? Yeah, it, it's a little normal. We're, we're used to it.
• 4:11
  Um, but the fact that we're the pace setters for pretty much everything, uh, some trends that are good, some trends maybe not so good.
• 4:22
  [laughs] Um, but, uh, you know, if you look at the history of California from the Gold Rush to, you know, present day, we've been leaders in technology, in the defense industry.
• 4:33
  Um, you know, we're the largest state for auto retailing. One out of every eight cars sold in the United States is sold in California. I mean, the market's- There's a stat... uh, the market's huge.
• 4:45
  Um, and, you know, Hollywood's based here. I mean, you can go on and on and on. A lot of the things that people talk about start in California. Man.
• 4:56
  Uh, so I heard an interesting stat, or an interesting piece of information, is that you, um, don't have social media, but you kind of a voracious reader of news. Like, and I know a lot of...
• 5:11
  Uh, Kyle and myself, right, like, we spend a lot of time on social media. A lot of people do. Um, what is...
• 5:17
  You're, you're at the lead, the head of the pack, or people are relying on you to kind of keep tabs of what's going on.
• 5:22
  Can you tell us, like, what is your rou- regular routine, or how do you consume news and process it in bulk like that when it's not in, like, three-second LinkedIn feed mode?
• 5:32
  S- so, you know, part of it is a, a, a personal interest. I- I've always been, uh, a big consumer of news from a lot of different sources, uh, including, of course, your newsletter.
• 5:45
  Um, but trying to stay up to speed with what folks are talking about. And, uh, my personal feeling is some of the social media, it's hard to, uh, figure out what's really going on.
• 6:02
  Uh, you know, you can follow trusted sources, of course.
• 6:05
  Um-But, you know, uh, following all the major papers in California, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, figuring out what people are talking about, and then obviously following the industry publications to learn what folks are talking about.
• 6:22
  So I feel like, uh, the more I know about what's going on and what people are talking about, the better I can serve our members, because they expect us to be on top of whatever trend is happening. They do. How... Yeah.
• 6:37
  Go ahead. And, and how do they get to the ground?
• 6:39
  Like, you know, because a lot of people are very, very close to their dealer associations and they're extremely involved, and some, uh, may not really know exactly what's going on at the dealer association, especially deeper into the dealer, uh, uh, into the dealer body or into the dealership and, and less of, like, the executive team.
• 6:57
  How do you get to the ground reconciling what's happening in culture and what's happening in, in the economy and, and serving the actual dealer body?
• 7:05
  What are the practical ways in which you're serving, like, current day right now? Yeah. It's, uh, it, it's a good question. I think what we realized, um, and in some ways it was the gift, uh, that COVID brought to us.
• 7:19
  We had to completely pivot in how we, uh, talk to our dealers, what we talk to them about, uh, our modes of communication, right? We couldn't do live events.
• 7:30
  We used to do seminars up and down the state and, you know, all that kind of stuff. We couldn't do that.
• 7:35
  So during the midst of COVID, especially, um, when it started in 2020, we were sending daily alerts to our dealers seven days a week for the first two months because local jurisdictions were shifting their policies and all kinds of crazy stuff was going on.
• 7:54
  It was crazy. Absolutely. And I think our dealers were conditioned to rely upon us,
• 8:01
  uh, to figure out what the heck was going on, in some cases in their own jurisdiction, because they weren't getting a straight answer from, you know, the city or the county or the state.
• 8:11
  And we took it upon ourselves to talk to them about that, and that's carried through. So our cadence of communication has, uh, amped up exponentially since then.
• 8:23
  We've got a, a, a great comms team that is communicating on all the social channels.
• 8:29
  Um, I, I, uh, you know, uh, try and, uh, talk to, uh, traditional news media whenever I can, uh, to really talk about who we are and what we're doing, uh, for dealers and their customers.
• 8:44
  Yeah, that was my follow-up question to what, when you started talking, was gonna say, was going to be, like, has that change stuck, right? The dependence on the dealer association.
• 8:54
  Sounds like it has, um, which is, is a huge benefit, right?
• 8:58
  Because everyone was playing in their own little sandbox, even within the state, and then this brought, like, a solidarity and a dependence on one another, right?
• 9:06
  I think of the ATA and it's like that is, that's a one another organization. Yeah. It's not like a separate organization. It is a collective of, you know, the dealers.
• 9:17
  Uh, uh, especially in, uh, you know, what we focus our association... And again, California is a little unique than, you know, some of our other states where maybe they're not over-regulated or- Mm-hmm...
• 9:30
  their legislature isn't in session 10 months a year every year like we are in California. [laughs] Yes. Um, so we, we focus on advocacy on their behalf, uh, in Sacramento and with state government, uh, and compliance.
• 9:48
  Our dealers need to know what the rules of the road are, and California's rules, I can say confidently, are the most complex in the country. So they rely on us to help them navigate through that.
• 10:00
  COVID, I think, reinforced that but, you know, we've got employment laws that are, uh, crazy. We've got, uh, very detailed advertising and sales rules, and the list goes on and on and on.
• 10:13
  So, um, being a resource for our dealers who have questions about, uh, what the rules of the road are. And we don't have an ax to grind. We represent all dealers.
• 10:24
  We're trying to help them navigate through this stuff, and we want to be a trusted source for them. You represent so many dealers and obviously various size, shapes, uh, dura- like, how long they've been in business.
• 10:37
  If you were to, like, give us maybe three categories, how would, how would you bucket out the dealer, the dealers into three categories, the ones that you serve? Yeah. I think, um, there's the lar- That's a thinker.
• 10:50
  I know it. Hard questions... there's the largest groups, some public, some private, and these are, you know, uh, large organizations. And in California they might represent anywhere from 10 to 50 stores. Mm-hmm.
• 11:05
  Um, so they're organized like a corporate entity. They have a corporate headquarters. They have com- chief compliance officers, what have you. So that's one category.
• 11:16
  Um, the next category I'd say is kind of the, the mid-sized group, uh, anywhere from two to 10 stores. Um, these are folks that are potentially growing.
• 11:27
  They, uh, represent typically a region, although in some cases they're expanding beyond a particular area of California. And, um, their needs are a little bit different.
• 11:37
  They want to grow, but they're nowhere near as big as some of the, the larger groups. And then we still have, uh, especially in a state as big as California, small groups. You know- Mm-hmm...
• 11:48
  the one or two, three store folks, uh, where the owner/operator is in the store every day- Mm-hmm... um, working with, uh, his or her staff to, uh, sell vehicles in their local community.
• 12:02
  And their needs are all a little bit different.But, uh, the great thing about an association is we try and find the common ground that every dealer has in common, right? We wanna protect- Yeah...
• 12:15
  the franchise laws, we wanna make sure that, um, dealers have a voice, uh, in Sacramento no matter their size. And, uh, that's how we combine the three groups that I outlined. Yeah.
• 12:31
  Now you, uh, you said a couple times, like, how do we care for the customer in that?
• 12:35
  And the interactions that I've had with you and your team is, like, that's an extremely point, uh, uh, uh, extremely, like, large point in the way that you, uh, head to, uh, the state government but also work with the dealers.
• 12:51
  Um, how do you balance the fact that, like, you know, regulation and laws and compliance and doing business, it has to be met with an association also caring about the c- customer experience or how the customer's getting interacted with with all of those things that I just listed off?
• 13:10
  Look, it, it all starts and ends with the customer.
• 13:13
  I mean, dealers are in business to serve the personal transportation needs of, uh, the people that visit their store, whether they're buying a car or servicing a car or getting parts or, um, you know, in the F&I buying other products.
• 13:28
  And, uh, if we don't help the dealers understand, uh, what the trends are, what consumers are expecting, what the regulators think the dealers should be doing relative to- [laughs]... consumers, which is- Yeah...
• 13:41
  an important part of it. And part of our job is to educate, um, the policymakers that they may have an idea of what a dealership looks like- Mm-hmm... but it's not necessarily, uh, factually based.
• 13:55
  And so we have to go in- Right... and explain to them, "No, this is what you require for a car sale to occur."
• 14:03
  The conditional sales contract that our dealers use is 27 inches front and back, and probably 80% of that is mandated by either federal or state law. Wait, you're talking about 27, like, if you stack the paper?
• 14:19
  No, I'm talking the contract is 27 inches long. Front and back. [laughs] Front and back.
• 14:25
  And there are requirements on font size, placement, font color, uh, what have you, and dealers have to navigate that very carefully. Now, the good news is there's lots of vendors that help them do that. Mm-hmm.
• 14:40
  But, um, they need to make sure they're following the proper protocols and procedures, otherwise, uh, regulators are gonna come after them and say, "You're not- Yeah, and, and-... serving your customers"...
• 14:51
  the other part of that is, like, hey, you have to have this, whatever that is, 54-inch long contract, basically, that you need to make sure the customer still has a great, you know, experience when they sign it, [laughs] right?
• 15:09
  Like, that's the...
• 15:10
  I think that's the dichotomy you're pointing to, is, like, here's all of the rules and regulations that pertain to listing out all of these things on a contract, and we also want the customer to have a really great experience, which is why we put all this in place.
• 15:24
  Mm-hmm. But yet they, they're looking at a contract going, "What am I actually signing myself up for at this point?" Well- So that's the conversation you have. Right.
• 15:32
  And we have, constantly have a conversation with policymakers, uh, and we want to avoid what I call the tyranny of over-disclosure. So somebody- Mm-hmm... might come up with a good- That's a great phrase...
• 15:45
  uh, somebody might come up with a good idea, um, and say, "You know what? We need to tell consumers that, you know, this is the rule or this is the, the right or opportunity that they have.
• 15:57
  Let's create another form and require the dealer to present the form to the customer every time they sell a car."
• 16:04
  We have, um, you know, a, a rule in California, you have to have front and back license plates on every car.
• 16:11
  And, uh, people who buy high-end cars don't want the minimum wage employee drilling holes in their front bumper, so they frequently- Naturally... decline to have the license plate.
• 16:23
  We have to give customers a front license plate bracket disclosure form to indicate that, uh, we've given them the bracket and they understand the obligation that they are required, uh, to display front license plates.
• 16:40
  That's all great, sounds good in isolation, but when you pile that on a 27-inch contract and a number of other disclosures, it's like sign here, sign here, sign...
• 16:51
  Nobody's reading it, nobody's paying attention- That's true... to it. Flying through it. And it, it doesn't help, uh, customers. So that's the dialogue we're having where- Mm...
• 17:01
  we need to strike a balance between- Yep... uh, providing customers valuable information, but providing them so much information that the real details they care about get lost.
• 17:14
  Can you imagine if, like, there were over-disclosure requirements on, like, a dating website? [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Exactly. No, no, no, no, no.
• 17:26
  You need to dic- disclose the allergy, you need to disclose [laughs] what you did last summer, you need to disclose all the things. [laughs] Yeah. That's funny right there.
• 17:34
  Let's, let's say we'd have a lot more single people if, uh- We- [laughs] I don't even wanna buy a car anymore... those were the rules. Right. [laughs] I don't wanna buy a car anymore. Um- That's amazing.
• 17:44
  So the, let's, let's pivot the conversation for a minute to the EV conversation- Sure...
• 17:48
  because California has been in the game for a really long time, uh, has way more EVs on the road, way more advanced charging infrastructure and experience overall.
• 17:58
  Um, we're seeing just, just this week, right, we see Apple pull the plug on their EV, uh, we see BYD saying they're not coming to the United States, um, and, and just a lot of other people largely pulling back from this, you know, EV momentum that's been going.
• 18:13
  What's the perspective of California?
• 18:15
  Because you all seem to have at least-Had a headstart in building infrastructure, seeing how people adopt it, and maybe you have some of the answers to the questions that are being asked about how to charge my vehicle, how to use it in different...
• 18:27
  Well, I wouldn't say that many different weather climates, but, you know, not too much cold in California.
• 18:32
  But, um, you know, what's your perspective as you watch it unwr- you know, kind of, like, roll out across the country? What would you say to the dealers that live in the different climates where EV adoption is low?
• 18:42
  Um, I'm just really curious what your perspective is, 'cause you're at the front of the pack. Yeah, I think the, the short summary I'd say is electrification of the vehicle fleet is coming.
• 18:52
  What, uh, we can't agree on is how fast it's gonna come and what, what's gonna be required to happen by certain dates.
• 19:02
  California's enacted a policy that says 100% of new vehicle sales in 2035 have to be, uh, zero emission. Mm-hmm.
• 19:11
  So, that is the policy of the state of California, and it's the policy of several other states that have adopted the Air Resources Board's rules.
• 19:20
  So, we're trying to work with policymakers to educate them on how we get from where we are today, which is about 21% EV penetration in California, to 100% in just 11 years. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 19:36
  And, um, we're gonna need more infrastructure. Yes, we have more than any other state, but, um, it's not as ubiquitous as gas stations, and that's kind of what consumers expect when they buy a car.
• 19:47
  I can go to a local gas station. The price is posted up there. Um, that's what they expect. Mm-hmm. That's not- we're nowhere close to that in, um, EV infrastructure or transparency yet.
• 20:01
  Uh, so, uh, w- we want to be realists. And, you know, here I'd say the market is king.
• 20:09
  You know, consumers speak with their dollars, and they're, they're signaling right now that, um, as much as the manufacturers are making these cars, maybe they're too expensive.
• 20:21
  Maybe they're not, they don't meet the needs of customers. Um, and, uh, I suspect that policymakers are gonna have to take a hard look about the pace at which they expect this transition to happen.
• 20:37
  Uh, we're in a position where we're trying to be supportive as best we can. Mm-hmm. Uh, we sell what customers want to buy, though.
• 20:44
  And if they don't want to buy these cars, we're gonna figure out how to stock the ones they do want to buy. Right. And we see in California, you know, hybrids, um, are doing great. Plug-in hybrids are also doing well.
• 20:57
  And I think what that tells us is consumers want options. Mm. They just don't want to be dictated that this is the only path you go down. Um, they want choice.
• 21:08
  Yeah, and I mean, the, I- I'm, I'm really interested to see what happens in Q1 this year, right? Because, uh, California, and by that nature, the rest of the US in Q4 saw a downturn in, uh, EV sales from Q3.
• 21:25
  And so, like, whether or not that was market dictated or interest dictated is still yet to be determined until we see, like, pace over Q1, Q2.
• 21:35
  And I'm hearing, like, the putting the, putting the money on the hood is starting to incentivize a greater level of adoption at some, in some markets in Q1.
• 21:45
  I wonder, uh, have you heard anything n- now through two months in Q1 about the way that people are interacting with EV purchasing as compared to Q4, or is it still too early to tell?
• 21:59
  It's probably a little early to tell. I think if you look at, um, inventory numbers for dealers, especially of EVs, uh, the day supply is, uh, still pretty high, even in a place like California. Hmm.
• 22:15
  And, um, we're gonna have to figure out how to, you know, rightsize that. Um, you know,
• 22:22
  you look at this industry over the last five years, uh, we had, you know, a more or less normal market in 2019, then we had COVID where dealers were selling vehicles at MSRP or in some cases higher than MSRP.
• 22:36
  There was no supply. Uh, there was still demand.
• 22:40
  Um, and now we've kind of flipped back to, you know, closer to a more normal environment where, uh, you know, supply of vehicles that consumers aren't interested in is growing, and vehicles where, um, you know, there's high demand- Hmm...
• 22:58
  there's not as much supply. I mean, you ask any Toyota dealer right now- [laughs]... they can't keep, they can't keep a hybrid vehicle in stock. Right. That's right. Because that's what consumers want.
• 23:10
  And I think what we've done when we've advocated, uh, to CARB is provide options and get consumers conditioned to buying vehicles that are alternative powertrain.
• 23:27
  Yes, we understand that the mandate is to go 100% EV in 11 years.
• 23:33
  But now that we've, uh, passed the stage of early adoption and you have to go to the mass market and talk to, you know, average customers, um, getting them out of an I- That curve gets steeper real quick.
• 23:48
  Yeah, you got to get- Yeah... them out, out of an ICE car into a hybrid and pat yourself on the back that that's progress. It's so rational, though. You know, and you get them from a hybrid to a plug-in hybrid.
• 23:58
  That's progress. You can't expect every Californian to snap their fingers and all of a sudden stop driving an ICE vehicle and be in an EV instantaneously.
• 24:10
  Change lifestyle, add a charger, change the way they drive through the day. Like, it's a whole, it is- It-... it's a, it's a wild kind of- Yeah, I've-... a position that we're asking people to jump...
• 24:19
  I've said it's the most radical transformation-... in, uh, personal transportation since we went from horses to internal combustion engine- It's done, yeah... vehicles and then- Wow... you know, 100 years ago.
• 24:32
  And, and we didn't even have, back then, if you look at the, like compare the two, we have such a rational path to EV. Like, you just laid it out.
• 24:40
  We have gasoline, now we have hybrid, and we have plug-in hybrid, and then we have full electric. Back then, they didn't even have those. Like, there was no stairsteps. It's like- Right...
• 24:50
  this one, you feed and it poops, and this one- [laughs]... you don't feed. [laughs] Right. [laughs] You pour gas in it and it just goes, right? Two different- there's, there's, it's, there's such...
• 25:00
  You just- as you were talking through it, I'm like, it is so plainly rational that you would stairstep people through that. And that is just how people change.
• 25:08
  If you just study, like, the, the sociological points of how people change, it's that way. Yeah. Yeah.
• 25:15
  It's, a- and the industry, uh, and you gotta compliment the automakers here, a lot of the successful changes in vehicle technology have been seamless to the consumer. Yeah. You know, we installed- Yeah...
• 25:30
  catalytic converters. Nobody, nobody griped about that. I mean, no. Yeah. Uh, we've got, you know, ABS brakes.
• 25:36
  We've got other technological advancements that have happened where the actual driving experience for consumers hasn't changed or has been made better, uh, than it was previously.
• 25:51
  The challenge with the electrification of the vehicle fleet, and Kyle, you mentioned it, is you're asking customers to change their driving behavior. Um- Yep...
• 26:02
  you can't go to a place and charge your car in five minutes. It's not possible. Nope. So, how are you going to adjust as a consumer? If you live in multifamily housing, where are you going to charge your car?
• 26:14
  Where are you gonna do all that? Um, so we have to be a little bit patient.
• 26:20
  We can certainly encourage people with tax credits and other things to think about and really seriously consider making the transition, but we also have to be realistic that you just can't snap our fingers and have it happen.
• 26:35
  Yep. Well, hey, Brian, you're obviously, uh, thinking ahead of the pack and, and having to move in places that a lot of the country isn't.
• 26:42
  So, appreciate you doing the diligent work and, and serving the dealers in the way that you did, the way that you do, and I really appreciate you being on Auto Collabs and joining us today.
• 26:52
  Well, Paul, Kyle, thanks a lot for all the time. Really appreciate it.
• 26:56
  [upbeat music] All right, so this is, it's, it's interesting to me because from an outsider's perspective, someone that doesn't live in California, you would kind of expect California to just be, "Oh, yeah, everybody's into this EV thing.
• 27:12
  Quite clearly we're growing at a rapid pace," right? 20% market share has EVs. Um, with, like, we're, we're fully prepared. And so for him to say, "No, there's no way we have the charging infrastructure.
• 27:25
  The next layer of adoption is just the same as the majority of the country where we don't know where we're gonna get it from," and- Uphill battle. Right... and it's an uphill battle all the way. Yeah.
• 27:35
  Yeah, I mean, it makes sense that California's, like, early adopters are done, rests in at around 20%, and everywhere else it's resting in at about 8%. Right. Right? 'Cause the technology really was pioneered out there.
• 27:46
  Uh, there's just more sun out there, right? And there's, uh- There you go... there's definitely more environmental, um, like, mentality out there, like, this is good for the environment.
• 27:55
  And, uh, you know, obviously Tesla was out there, like, all the, all the first, the first mover or so. But, you know, you have the early adoption, s- adopters in the beginning if you ever see the curve, right?
• 28:03
  And then you see a real steep incline, and at the tippy top of that is mass adoption, right? That's a hard climb.
• 28:11
  And, um, I think he just did an amazing job of laying out the steps we can take to get there, the rational steps we can take, and him, you know, bringing up that by 2035, California's, like, their, their law is that every car, 100% of drivetrains have to be full electric.
• 28:28
  And so- I would love to see some level of, like, production timeline that aligns with a potential consumer demand timeline, right? Like, how do we... I bet you in an office somewhere, Toyota has it.
• 28:41
  We mentioned it on the pod- Toyota definitely has it... in conversation, right? But it's like, what's the climb? What's the path to get there? And how do we go through the hybrid to plug-in hybrid to, to EV?
• 28:51
  And is, is, can we m- can we get closer now, because we've had the last few years of data, can we get closer to a projected timeline where kind of consumer demand, public infrastructure, private infrastructure, and, um, and, and production all kind of, like, come in sync- Mm-hmm...
• 29:11
  um, without a forced thing, but knowing that there's a great end result in mind? Mm-hmm. I, I feel like there's some accountant or some person that loves spreadsheets somewhere- [laughs]...
• 29:21
  that's ready to put that together. Probably.
• 29:24
  I'm not convinced either that if we looked at Toyota's spreadsheet or their graph or whatever it was, that there wouldn't be this little dark horse in there called hydrogen- Ah...
• 29:34
  that had, that had a, had a place on that sheet. Yep, yep. We'll, we'll see how that, how it boils out. But obviously, um, California leading the way.
• 29:40
  We can learn a lot from the way they've been adopting and the challenges they're having at 21% that a lot of people are feeling at, like, 5% adoption. So, uh, obviously, great to spend some time with Brian.
• 29:50
  Great to spend some time with you. Thanks for joining us here today on Auto Collabs. Sign up for our free and fun-to-read daily email for a free shot of relevant news in automotive, retail, media, and pop culture.
• 30:03
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• 30:14
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Auto Collabs. [laughs] Why are we recording? Are we rolling yet?
• 30:33
  Not yet