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The Dangers of Political Neurolinguistic Programming | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

0:08
Speaker 1: Good morning, David. Thank you very much for joining me again.
0:12
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here again.
0:13
Speaker 1: Brian, thank you, well, yeah, thank you for giving up time.
0:17
Speaker 1: I must say that you came and joined us on
0:19
Speaker 1: the UK column News. We had an extremely good response
0:25
Speaker 1: to the segment that you did about NLP and government's
0:30
Speaker 1: use of NLP, so I was very very keen to
0:33
Speaker 1: follow up on that. And you can't see them because
0:37
Speaker 1: they're slightly out of camera shot at the moment. But
0:41
Speaker 1: I've got about five books that I thought i would
0:46
Speaker 1: introduce some little bits from. So these books represent really
0:51
Speaker 1: my learning journey in matters to do with NLP. But
0:56
Speaker 1: we'll come on to those in due course. Perhaps you'd
0:59
Speaker 1: be kind enough just to tell the audience a little
1:03
Speaker 1: bit about yourself, because I am sure that there's going
1:06
Speaker 1: to be new and different people listening into today's audio
1:11
Speaker 1: so today's interview, So just introduce yourself and tell us
1:16
Speaker 1: a little bit about not only your professional work as
1:21
Speaker 1: an n LP Master Practitioner, but also some of the
1:25
Speaker 1: places that you've worked.
1:30
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, sure, I'll try and keep it as brief
1:33
Speaker 3: brief as possible. I've had many changes, but I was
1:38
Speaker 3: in an it company for fairly senior management within it,
1:42
Speaker 3: and the choice came to as to whether to do
1:44
Speaker 3: an MBA or not, because it seemed that a lot
1:48
Speaker 3: of people were doing were getting funded to do nbas
1:52
Speaker 3: and you only got promoted into the royal family of
1:56
Speaker 3: the company, if you like, if you had an MBA.
1:59
Speaker 3: So I look to the curriculum, didn't think it would
2:03
Speaker 3: be add any practical use to me at all. And
2:09
Speaker 3: at the same time, I was discovering NLP, which had
2:11
Speaker 3: just started to come over from from the US, so
2:14
Speaker 3: that that that made a connection with me much more
2:19
Speaker 3: than the NBA, because it was about people. It was
2:22
Speaker 3: about communication, it was about rapport, it was about you know,
2:27
Speaker 3: how to get the best out of yourself and the
2:30
Speaker 3: best out of other people.
2:31
Speaker 2: And I didn't see any of that in the NBA curriculum.
2:34
Speaker 3: That was all kind of quantity of analysis and all
2:36
Speaker 3: that kind of business stuff.
2:39
Speaker 2: So I went to the course and took all my.
2:46
Speaker 3: Traumas with me, if you like, and I had a
2:51
Speaker 3: tremendous experience. So I went on another course, did another
2:57
Speaker 3: practition I did two practitioner courses and then went on
3:00
Speaker 3: to do a Master Practitioner course and then I went
3:03
Speaker 3: on to do a trainer training course in NLP and
3:07
Speaker 3: then began to utilize some of the NLP material within
3:11
Speaker 3: the training of the organization.
3:15
Speaker 2: And so that was kind of my first initiation I think.
3:19
Speaker 3: Into with with NLP and how to use it, not
3:22
Speaker 3: just for myself, and I would say that it got
3:26
Speaker 3: me over a very arduous period within the business because
3:33
Speaker 3: this was a big, huge business. It was six and
3:35
Speaker 3: a half thousand employees and growing like crazy. And the
3:39
Speaker 3: chairman phoned me up one night in his Northern voice
3:42
Speaker 3: and he said, he said, David, can you come in
3:45
Speaker 3: early tomorrow because I'm going to sack your boss.
3:48
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, this is interesting.
3:51
Speaker 3: I think the boss needed sacking anyway, so I thought
3:54
Speaker 3: that this was unexpected. So so anyway, the story was
3:59
Speaker 3: he asked me to look after the organization until he
4:03
Speaker 3: could find a replacement. And there's no way at that
4:08
Speaker 3: point I was in any position to run the organization
4:11
Speaker 3: at all, so so as caretaker, I was happy to
4:15
Speaker 3: take that on. But what happened was, because there were
4:21
Speaker 3: so many problems and issues within the service part of
4:23
Speaker 3: the organization, I was getting all kinds of flat thrown
4:27
Speaker 3: at me from from the salespeople, from the accounting people,
4:32
Speaker 3: you know, the non engineers. And it was you know,
4:36
Speaker 3: I was getting up early, had having any sleep, you know,
4:39
Speaker 3: get home at about eleven o'clock at night and then
4:42
Speaker 3: get up at like five to get in early for
4:44
Speaker 3: a meeting.
4:44
Speaker 2: And sort things out.
4:46
Speaker 3: And I think it was NLP that really helped me
4:48
Speaker 3: through that phase because I was able to hold my
4:51
Speaker 3: own I was able to present myself as a confident
4:54
Speaker 3: individual regardless of what they're throwing at me and blaming
4:58
Speaker 3: me for that I was was caretaking. So so I've
5:02
Speaker 3: had it to be quite an effective resource for managing
5:05
Speaker 3: myself amidst other situations.
5:11
Speaker 1: David, perhaps I could just come in there and and say,
5:14
Speaker 1: for people who have never heard of n l P before,
5:19
Speaker 1: tell us, can you tell us a little bit about
5:22
Speaker 1: what it is. You already said that it's helped you
5:26
Speaker 1: and and this this helped your performance in a in
5:29
Speaker 1: a stressful job. What is what is n LP and
5:35
Speaker 1: how how how does it help in that respect?
5:40
Speaker 3: Neuro Linguistic programs, it's about the brain, how the mind works.
5:45
Speaker 3: Linguistics it's about the verbal language that you use through
5:50
Speaker 3: my voice but also through internal dialogue and it's also
5:54
Speaker 3: about the body language, physiology, and programming is really relating
6:00
Speaker 3: to the fact that throughout a day, you know, we
6:04
Speaker 3: usually call it habits. I've got a habit of doing
6:06
Speaker 3: something well, NLP would say, well, that's a program you're running,
6:09
Speaker 3: So it's a habit basically. So it's it's how to
6:13
Speaker 3: break habits that are not that are that are not
6:16
Speaker 3: helping you and replace them with a habit that is
6:19
Speaker 3: helping you. So, for example, in a tough meeting, when
6:22
Speaker 3: I'm getting all kinds of warfare thrown at me because
6:27
Speaker 3: the last CEO did a shirt job and left a
6:30
Speaker 3: mess behind. Now I was getting the blame for that mess,
6:34
Speaker 3: you know. So rather than feel intimidated and getting to
6:39
Speaker 3: be kind of smaller and going red and embarrassed all
6:42
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, I was able to hold my
6:44
Speaker 3: own and say, no, I'm not running that program. I'm
6:46
Speaker 3: running a program of confidence. They can throw what they
6:49
Speaker 3: hell like at me. It'll just go over my head.
6:51
Speaker 3: That'll be fine, the meeting will go, will be over,
6:54
Speaker 3: and then we'll get on with business. So so it
6:57
Speaker 3: kind of I think reframing, reframing your your response to.
7:05
Speaker 2: What's going on around you. I guess is one way
7:07
Speaker 2: of saying that.
7:09
Speaker 1: Right, excellent. And so you've given us an example of
7:13
Speaker 1: your personal experience of not only benefiting from n LP
7:18
Speaker 1: but using n LP to to help make progress in
7:23
Speaker 1: a business sense. Can you also just give us a
7:26
Speaker 1: couple of examples of where you've also been able to
7:31
Speaker 1: get into organizations or you've been used in other organizations.
7:35
Speaker 1: I think you've done some governmental work at one stage.
7:40
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, Well the way it goes is, I would
7:48
Speaker 3: be one stage, I was running open a n LP program,
7:51
Speaker 3: so I was inviting you know, the public to come
7:54
Speaker 3: along to an NLP course and experience it for themselves,
7:58
Speaker 3: of course have you known. And then you'd get a
8:00
Speaker 3: chief executive or an operations director come along and they
8:04
Speaker 3: get a lot of benefit out of that, and they'd say, oh,
8:06
Speaker 3: we want this in our organization.
8:08
Speaker 2: So you know, whether the people want.
8:10
Speaker 3: It or not is another question, but you know, they say, oh,
8:13
Speaker 3: come and do some NLP in our organization.
8:15
Speaker 2: Help us with this.
8:16
Speaker 3: So so I've worked in many different organizations. I've worked
8:21
Speaker 3: in engineering, aerospace, accounting, investment, banking, and of course yes,
8:29
Speaker 3: government and and in each each time, you know, it's
8:39
Speaker 3: you ask them what do you want to get out
8:40
Speaker 3: of this program?
8:41
Speaker 2: What is it you want to get from this program?
8:43
Speaker 3: So if it if it's engineering, it's about they'll say, oh,
8:46
Speaker 3: we we need to we need to share information more,
8:48
Speaker 3: and we need to work better as a team, so
8:51
Speaker 3: we can work as that as an outcome using an
8:54
Speaker 3: LP as the as the modus operandi for for achieving that.
8:59
Speaker 3: Or it might be, you know, these managers need to
9:03
Speaker 3: understand how to work effectively with people, so that would
9:06
Speaker 3: be the you know, the focus and the outcome of
9:09
Speaker 3: an NLP program for that organization. The interesting thing is,
9:13
Speaker 3: you know, whenever I worked in government, they didn't seem
9:17
Speaker 3: to be interested in outcomes. They seem to be interested
9:21
Speaker 3: in what are we going to use this for? What
9:23
Speaker 3: do we want to see as a result. At the
9:25
Speaker 3: end of the day, they just wanted to learn NLP.
9:30
Speaker 2: And so.
9:34
Speaker 3: It's very it's very very different if you if you
9:37
Speaker 3: want to learn if I think you'll understand this is
9:40
Speaker 3: with your background. If you want to learn something is
9:43
Speaker 3: if you can apply it instantly immediately. Let's say you
9:46
Speaker 3: want to learn a language. If you want to learn Spanish,
9:48
Speaker 3: it's much easier if you're in Spain and you're hearing
9:50
Speaker 3: the language around you. So if you don't really have
9:55
Speaker 3: an outcome, something to apply or new learning to, then
9:58
Speaker 3: that learning can be a waste. It'll soon kind of
10:02
Speaker 3: leave you if you're not using that. And I got
10:04
Speaker 3: the sense with the government that they didn't really have
10:09
Speaker 3: a particular outcome or an intention in mind for why
10:13
Speaker 3: they wanted to use NLP, unless, of course, they were
10:16
Speaker 3: keeping that to themselves.
10:18
Speaker 1: David, forgive me, let me, let me just come back
10:21
Speaker 1: in there. What when you're talking about this and an
10:25
Speaker 1: interaction with the government department, what what year are you
10:30
Speaker 1: talking about?
10:33
Speaker 3: Okay, so be a quite kind of quite vague. I'm
10:38
Speaker 3: probably talking two thousand, two thousand and two, maybe something
10:43
Speaker 3: like that.
10:44
Speaker 1: Right, And you'll probably guess the reason I asked that
10:47
Speaker 1: question is because I was curious as to how early
10:53
Speaker 1: on in the government's drive towards the use of NLP
10:58
Speaker 1: and behavioral insights as they came to call it, that
11:04
Speaker 1: in my mind, really started to furn up firm up
11:07
Speaker 1: around twenty ten, so roughly eight years five eight years
11:13
Speaker 1: before that time, there was clearly you are demonstrating that
11:17
Speaker 1: there was clearly interest in the powers of NLP using
11:22
Speaker 1: that within government.
11:25
Speaker 3: Absolutely and before that, because the first corporation to.
11:34
Speaker 2: Do NLP training was IBM in the US. You may
11:39
Speaker 2: have researched this.
11:40
Speaker 3: I know you're excellent researcher and you really go to
11:43
Speaker 3: go deep. But the people who are initially trained with
11:48
Speaker 3: in Southampton, who were a really good organization. The key
11:54
Speaker 3: trainer was an ex IBM consultant and his co trainer
11:59
Speaker 3: was an some sort of with IBM, and I b
12:02
Speaker 3: M had trained significant numbers of people in the US
12:06
Speaker 3: in n l P way before it actually came over
12:10
Speaker 3: to to the to the UK. So so I think
12:15
Speaker 3: it's probably been going on for longer than you know
12:18
Speaker 3: than the my involvement with with government.
12:21
Speaker 2: In n LP.
12:23
Speaker 1: Well, I would certainly, I would certainly guess that, but
12:27
Speaker 1: sometimes it is difficult to get information from back in
12:31
Speaker 1: the early days. You you've done all this work and
12:36
Speaker 1: you've we we've had good conversations about the effectiveness of
12:42
Speaker 1: n LP, and you've also said very clearly that you
12:45
Speaker 1: have you've seen benefits from it on on yourself and
12:51
Speaker 1: with other people and other organizations.
12:55
Speaker 3: Me.
12:56
Speaker 1: I recently sent you an article that I'd written quite
13:00
Speaker 1: some years ago called from Magic to Madness with a
13:06
Speaker 1: secondary headline of the government's NLP Assault on Our Minds,
13:14
Speaker 1: and you kindly agreed to have a read through that. Now,
13:17
Speaker 1: it was a pretty tough article I wrote because at
13:20
Speaker 1: that stage, and I think we're talking about twenty eleven,
13:25
Speaker 1: I was getting very concerned at watching a government starting
13:30
Speaker 1: to use these I'm going to say sophisticated. You can
13:35
Speaker 1: come back at me in just a moment as to
13:38
Speaker 1: whether that's an appropriate word, but I thought they were
13:41
Speaker 1: quite sophisticated techniques in order to change people's behavior in
13:48
Speaker 1: line with chosen government policies. And I'd been particularly interested
13:54
Speaker 1: in twenty ten when the British Cabinet Office had produced
13:59
Speaker 1: a document called mind Space, and I was stunned when
14:04
Speaker 1: I read that document for the first time to see
14:07
Speaker 1: the government, the British government boasting that it could change
14:11
Speaker 1: the way people thought and the way people behaved. And
14:14
Speaker 1: it then said, and if they realize that their thinking
14:19
Speaker 1: patterns or their behavior has changed, they won't necessarily know
14:23
Speaker 1: that it's changed, or if they do know that their
14:27
Speaker 1: thinking and behavior has changed, they won't necessarily know how
14:32
Speaker 1: it has changed. And I thought, my goodness, this sounds
14:37
Speaker 1: dangerous to me that such technique should be in the
14:41
Speaker 1: hands of the government. And then later in the document
14:46
Speaker 1: I was amused, or maybe a bit amused, to see
14:49
Speaker 1: the government acknowledging that thought by saying, well, one of
14:54
Speaker 1: the things is we'll have to be careful that the
14:56
Speaker 1: public don't accuse us of manipulation. But really, the mind
15:02
Speaker 1: Space document said to me that here was the UK
15:07
Speaker 1: government boasting of its ability to use these behavioral interventions,
15:14
Speaker 1: and NLP was clearly one of the basis of basics
15:18
Speaker 1: of these in order to change the way we the
15:21
Speaker 1: public thought and behaved. And for me this was dangerous
15:27
Speaker 1: because if you look at the way the government behaves,
15:32
Speaker 1: which can be everything from lying propaganda to rule breaking,
15:37
Speaker 1: for them to have the power to manipulate the way
15:40
Speaker 1: the population thinks and behaves was very dangerous. So I
15:45
Speaker 1: sent you that article. I didn't know whether you'd ever
15:48
Speaker 1: speak to me again because it was pretty hard on
15:52
Speaker 1: It was clearly.
15:53
Speaker 2: Not a fan of NLPIN.
15:55
Speaker 1: I can see that, well, well, this is one of
15:59
Speaker 1: the things, really, David, that I'd like to talk about
16:01
Speaker 1: with you, because you have responded to me in that
16:08
Speaker 1: first interaction we had by saying, well, you know it
16:13
Speaker 1: depends who's using it as to what benefits come out
16:16
Speaker 1: of it. So I hope in this discussion we can
16:19
Speaker 1: sort of get into some of the concerns versus some
16:23
Speaker 1: of the benefits with you. But perhaps I could just
16:27
Speaker 1: ask first of all, and you come back at me
16:30
Speaker 1: as you like. I sent that paper over to you
16:33
Speaker 1: because I ended it by saying that we should get
16:36
Speaker 1: rid of NLP because it's a very dangerous weapon in
16:41
Speaker 1: the hands of the government. You've actually also now expressed
16:45
Speaker 1: concerns about the political use of NLP. Where does it
16:50
Speaker 1: sit in your own mind? Do you just feel that
16:52
Speaker 1: we need to be careful if these techniques are being
16:56
Speaker 1: used for the government or have you got to a
16:58
Speaker 1: point where you're thinking this is getting a bit serious?
17:04
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a that's a great question.
17:09
Speaker 3: I think it's about your level of consciousness, right, because
17:12
Speaker 3: we know in the UK today there are many people
17:16
Speaker 3: who are angry, they're going on protests there that maybe
17:22
Speaker 3: they part of what we call woke. Now where did
17:25
Speaker 3: they get that from, you know, or maybe they're they're
17:28
Speaker 3: part of another group, Antifa or something else? Where did
17:30
Speaker 3: they get that from? So it doesn't need it doesn't
17:33
Speaker 3: take a lot to persuade somebody that this is good
17:38
Speaker 3: and that's bad, and that because that's bad and that
17:41
Speaker 3: you're good, you need to do something about these bad people.
17:44
Speaker 2: Right.
17:45
Speaker 3: So so this is how the government is setting people
17:47
Speaker 3: up regardless of then that doesn't need an LP techniques.
17:50
Speaker 3: That's just repetition through the media and people grasp onto
17:56
Speaker 3: something and then they they build it up in their
17:59
Speaker 3: own mind. So some people are using self hypnosis even
18:03
Speaker 3: though they don't know it, by grasping hold of an
18:06
Speaker 3: idea and then building on that idea. So the first
18:11
Speaker 3: thing to say is that I think Bandler and Grenda
18:15
Speaker 3: didn't invent anything. They didn't create NLP, they didn't invent NLP.
18:20
Speaker 3: All they did was to look around and say, hm,
18:23
Speaker 3: who are the people they are doing fantastic therapy? So
18:27
Speaker 3: you know, they went and found people like you know,
18:30
Speaker 3: Virginia Satire, the family therapist, Fritz Pearls, who would have
18:36
Speaker 3: people talking to a chair an empty chair, Gregory bateson
18:44
Speaker 3: Milton Erickson, which is where the hypnosis comes from. And
18:47
Speaker 3: by modeling these people and finding out how it is
18:51
Speaker 3: that they can get excellent results and others in their
18:56
Speaker 3: profession and not getting anywhere near those results.
18:59
Speaker 2: So they were modeling people that did things extremely well.
19:03
Speaker 2: So NLP is like an eclectic.
19:09
Speaker 3: Growing toolbox if you like that draws from anything that's effective.
19:15
Speaker 3: If that's effective, let's bring it in here. If that's effective,
19:19
Speaker 3: let's bring it in here. And then suddenly they say
19:21
Speaker 3: what shall we call this thing? And they ended up
19:23
Speaker 3: calling it neurolinguistic programming whatever, So they didn't actually create anything.
19:30
Speaker 3: I think what Richard Bandler did though, he did a
19:33
Speaker 3: fantastic job in the area of what we call submidalities,
19:36
Speaker 3: and he did a lot of research and submidalities and
19:38
Speaker 3: it invented some or designed some very effective techniques.
19:44
Speaker 2: Based on that.
19:45
Speaker 3: So it's like anything. You can invent a gun and
19:50
Speaker 3: that gun can be used for killing animals for food,
19:56
Speaker 3: or it can be used to rob a bank. Recently
20:00
Speaker 3: have the UK government saying, you know, there's a lot
20:02
Speaker 3: of knife crimes, so we need.
20:03
Speaker 2: To ban knives.
20:05
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I have knives in my kitchen. You know,
20:10
Speaker 3: it's not the knife that's the problem, it's the person
20:12
Speaker 3: wielding the knife that's the problem. So so whilst you know,
20:16
Speaker 3: nuuringuistic programming was designed to help people through a therapeutic process,
20:25
Speaker 3: and then because it was so successful at that, it
20:28
Speaker 3: went on to helping people who wanted to acquire more
20:32
Speaker 3: materialistic gains. You know, in sales, we want more sales,
20:37
Speaker 3: more commission, et cetera. So they started using it because
20:40
Speaker 3: they could see that as an advantage. The fact that
20:45
Speaker 3: some bad people, you know, and I consider our government
20:49
Speaker 3: to be some of the baddest people on this planet.
20:53
Speaker 3: They either there are you know, they're either trying to
20:57
Speaker 3: destroy everything or they're just going along with doing anything
21:00
Speaker 3: because they have their spineless Those kind of people might
21:05
Speaker 3: use it, But it's not the technology that's the problem.
21:08
Speaker 2: It's the people that are using it that there's the issue.
21:13
Speaker 1: Right, that's I'm going to say that that's a fair point.
21:17
Speaker 1: I'd just like to add into your gun analogy. This
21:22
Speaker 1: is very true. Guns very very rarely just go go
21:26
Speaker 1: off fire on their own. So usually it's going to
21:30
Speaker 1: be the person plus the gun, which is the dangerous concept.
21:34
Speaker 1: But we also we also have the issue of a
21:37
Speaker 1: gun versus a sniper's rifle. And of course the sniper's
21:42
Speaker 1: rifle is variation on a gun, but its use. In
21:47
Speaker 1: its use, the victim, the person being shot very often
21:53
Speaker 1: has no idea that a gun is pointed at them,
21:56
Speaker 1: and the first thing they know is when they've been hit.
22:00
Speaker 1: Maybe they don't even realize that and they're gone. And
22:04
Speaker 1: of course one of the immense powers of I'll qualify it,
22:10
Speaker 1: and the qualification might be incorrect, and you challenge me again.
22:13
Speaker 1: But if I say, with sophisticated higher level techniques, is
22:19
Speaker 1: that an individual may not even know that the government
22:24
Speaker 1: is using applied psychology to get that person to adhere
22:29
Speaker 1: to the government's desired behavior instead of that individual's instinctive behavior. Yeah,
22:39
Speaker 1: so that is I suppose application of NLP.
22:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I got a couple of responses to that.
22:47
Speaker 3: I think the first one is that somebody designed that gun,
22:51
Speaker 3: that sniper rple. That's a sniper rifle. Right, So if
22:55
Speaker 3: we decided that we were going to ban sniper rifles,
23:00
Speaker 3: then you know, the police would come around or the
23:03
Speaker 3: army will come around checking that we don't have any guns.
23:06
Speaker 3: But they still have them. The bad people would still
23:11
Speaker 3: have them. If we banned NLP, it would mean that
23:14
Speaker 3: every therapist and a lot of hypnotherapists use NLP. A
23:19
Speaker 3: lot of other types of therapists now use a lot
23:22
Speaker 3: of NLP language to help relax their clients, get them
23:26
Speaker 3: into a good state of mind, that kind of thing.
23:29
Speaker 3: So if we stop people using NLP, the government would
23:32
Speaker 3: still have it.
23:34
Speaker 2: That's the problem.
23:35
Speaker 3: It's the bad people are in charge, and it's the
23:37
Speaker 3: bad people that have all the you know, they have
23:40
Speaker 3: the weapons, the guns, that have anything they want because
23:44
Speaker 3: they'll just take it, or they get someone bay somebody
23:46
Speaker 3: aload of money to design something for them. So while
23:49
Speaker 3: we have bad people in charge, they are always going
23:51
Speaker 3: to be bad people around and so it's rarely the
23:56
Speaker 3: technology or the technique that's the problem. It's the people
24:01
Speaker 3: that have the you know, the worst intentions in mind
24:05
Speaker 3: for using those things. I think I believe that that's
24:07
Speaker 3: the problem because I've seen so much good with NLPs,
24:10
Speaker 3: so much good. I mean, I could keep you here
24:14
Speaker 3: for hours, Brian talking about the you know, miraculous changes
24:19
Speaker 3: that people have gone through.
24:22
Speaker 1: David's I wanted a broad discussion about NLP, and really
24:28
Speaker 1: we've we've got into a critical point here because yes,
24:33
Speaker 1: I have been very concerned and focused on the government's
24:38
Speaker 1: use of it, and I want to talk more about that.
24:43
Speaker 1: But in my gur. I have no formal training in psychology.
24:48
Speaker 1: The only things that I know have come from my
24:51
Speaker 1: own life experience. Life experiences, and I've always been very
24:55
Speaker 1: interested in people, and I think I get on with
24:59
Speaker 1: most people pretty well. But I have now read quite
25:03
Speaker 1: a lot of books, not only about NLP and mindfulness
25:07
Speaker 1: and applied psychology. So I'm not a professional. I've had
25:12
Speaker 1: no professional training, but I have a bit of understanding,
25:16
Speaker 1: and I have to say that, yes, I can also
25:19
Speaker 1: recognize that these techniques can help people in a number
25:26
Speaker 1: of different ways, and I've seen some of these techniques
25:30
Speaker 1: help people, So it's only fair for me to come
25:34
Speaker 1: back to you by saying that. So just because you've
25:39
Speaker 1: touched on it, tell us a bit more about where
25:42
Speaker 1: you've seen people really benefit from the use of NLPM,
25:47
Speaker 1: and in what circumstance was that that applied. Was that
25:51
Speaker 1: a sort of one to one consultation or were you
25:54
Speaker 1: dealing in a in another form?
26:03
Speaker 2: Okay, with a danger, I'll try and keep it brief.
26:06
Speaker 3: But there was an Albanian chap and he came on
26:10
Speaker 3: our public course and he came in it was like
26:14
Speaker 3: a three day introductory course, so he came in a
26:15
Speaker 3: three day introductory course and he really enjoyed it. After
26:19
Speaker 3: the course, he contacted me and said, I have a problem.
26:21
Speaker 3: I said, what's the problem and he said, I want
26:27
Speaker 3: to start a dance school for children, but I can't
26:33
Speaker 3: seem to get anything done. And I said, okay, let's
26:37
Speaker 3: do someone to one. So we did someone to one
26:39
Speaker 3: with this guy. I'll leave his name out of it.
26:44
Speaker 3: It seemed that he when he was being raised in Albania,
26:48
Speaker 3: his father was extremely violent towards him and his mother.
26:53
Speaker 3: His big brother was also violent towards him, so he
26:56
Speaker 3: had a very traumatic and violent upbringing. He managed to
27:01
Speaker 3: make it to England. He was a dance a dancer
27:06
Speaker 3: and a dance instructor and he'd been going to talking
27:12
Speaker 3: therapy for three and a half years weekly. So I said,
27:18
Speaker 3: so when you go to a therapy what happens? He said, well,
27:22
Speaker 3: they just get me to talk about my past. And
27:24
Speaker 3: I said and he said, well, no, that's it. And
27:27
Speaker 3: I said, well that's not really therapy, that's just having
27:30
Speaker 3: a chat, you know, So let's sort this out. So
27:34
Speaker 3: within the next hour we'd sorted him out. He didn't
27:37
Speaker 3: need any more therapy and it only took an hour
27:39
Speaker 3: of NLP techniques to.
27:41
Speaker 2: Reframe his his meaning of.
27:47
Speaker 3: His upbringing into something more positive so that he could
27:50
Speaker 3: get over that and kind of move forward.
27:53
Speaker 1: So sorry, I've been coming back in because I'll have
27:58
Speaker 1: so many questions about this. So when you say he
28:03
Speaker 1: was he was reframed. Was that reframing an application of
28:11
Speaker 1: techniques by yourself and then he responded to those techniques
28:16
Speaker 1: without being fully aware of if it was moving his
28:23
Speaker 1: mindset from point A to point B and this was
28:28
Speaker 1: helping him, it was taking him on a journey, which
28:31
Speaker 1: was which was helping him? Did he realize that that
28:35
Speaker 1: mindset was changing and how it was changing or are
28:40
Speaker 1: you saying it was successful because in the beginning he
28:44
Speaker 1: was depressed and down and then by the end of
28:47
Speaker 1: the session he was clearly feeling in a different place.
28:50
Speaker 1: But how he got there he didn't really know.
28:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he was conscious of the whole process. Yeah,
28:58
Speaker 3: And he's very simple. So so you can if you
29:04
Speaker 3: keep using your past as an excuse, you're a victim
29:08
Speaker 3: of your past, and the ly you use that as
29:11
Speaker 3: an excuse for not being able to do something, well,
29:13
Speaker 3: it's because I didn't have the upbringing, it's because et cetera.
29:16
Speaker 3: My mother, my father didn't never did this or help me.
29:20
Speaker 3: You become a victim, right, So it's important to to,
29:24
Speaker 3: you know, deal with those past traumas experiences in such
29:28
Speaker 3: a way that they become more of learning experiences. This
29:32
Speaker 3: is how I got to where I am today, you know,
29:35
Speaker 3: so you look at the positive benefits. Now, you don't
29:38
Speaker 3: necessarily say that to him. You can ask him and say, well, look,
29:42
Speaker 3: you know, in what ways has your past perhaps facilitated
29:48
Speaker 3: you being here today with this amazing ambition that you've
29:52
Speaker 3: yet to realize? All right now, in me saying that,
29:56
Speaker 3: there's a little bit of artfully vague language from Miltonaire,
30:00
Speaker 3: there's a little bit of suggestion, but I'm not telling
30:03
Speaker 3: him anything. He's listening to that and then making his
30:06
Speaker 3: own mind up, so he decides what the past means,
30:11
Speaker 3: what the new reframed meaning is.
30:13
Speaker 2: But also with n LP.
30:17
Speaker 3: And we can get to why why it's it will
30:21
Speaker 3: never be offered in the NHS. For example, you're watching
30:27
Speaker 3: the eye patterns, you're you're listening to the voice tone,
30:29
Speaker 3: you're watching the skin color, you're it's what's called sense
30:32
Speaker 3: forory acuity. As the client is is processing this procedure
30:38
Speaker 3: that you've offered them. You can see, Oh, you just
30:42
Speaker 3: had an image. What was that image? Yeah, I had
30:45
Speaker 3: an image. I could see blah blah blah, whatever it is. Okay,
30:48
Speaker 3: what color was the image, what size was it, et cetera.
30:51
Speaker 3: Really okay, so we know I would know that an image,
30:55
Speaker 3: that image is not going to help him if if
30:58
Speaker 3: the image keeps coming up every time thinks about the
31:01
Speaker 3: past or whatever. So we help him to change the image.
31:05
Speaker 3: And it's just a habit like anything else, you know,
31:08
Speaker 3: Like you know, if I pick my nose, I scratch
31:10
Speaker 3: my bomb, that's a habit. But if I always have
31:13
Speaker 3: a habit of seeing an image, a negative image in
31:16
Speaker 3: a certain way. And these images, by the way his
31:19
Speaker 3: mind images, they have a way of they're very precise.
31:22
Speaker 3: They'll come to you in exactly the same kind of
31:25
Speaker 3: location around your body, in exactly the same whether it's
31:28
Speaker 3: color black and white, size will be absolutely exactly the same.
31:36
Speaker 3: So what we do is we reframe that, we change
31:38
Speaker 3: the habit, all right, So you say not that this
31:41
Speaker 3: instead not that this, and we kind of repeat it,
31:44
Speaker 3: repeat it, repeated, until in the end, when he thinks
31:48
Speaker 3: about his past, he no longer can see the negative
31:50
Speaker 3: images that have been holding him back. He sees the
31:53
Speaker 3: positive images that actually sees that as actually something that
31:57
Speaker 3: created some strength in him to do what he had
32:01
Speaker 3: to do in order to get on board. So it
32:07
Speaker 3: is quite sophisticated some of the techniques, and you do
32:10
Speaker 3: need to do a lot of training to be very
32:12
Speaker 3: very good at this. Now I just finalized that story
32:17
Speaker 3: because he went away a happy bunny, and I never
32:21
Speaker 3: heard from him for about nine months, and suddenly I
32:24
Speaker 3: got a card through the door after nine months and
32:27
Speaker 3: it said you are cordially invited to the first dance
32:33
Speaker 3: marathon in an area of London involving something like I
32:38
Speaker 3: don't know, twenty five different schools. He'd been around twenty
32:41
Speaker 3: five schools teaching young kids to dance this particular thing,
32:45
Speaker 3: and then this was at Wembley Stadium. So he managed
32:49
Speaker 3: to get himself to Wembley Stadium nine months later, having
32:53
Speaker 3: taught all these children to dance, and I was almost
32:56
Speaker 3: in tears. I went in there and sat there and
32:59
Speaker 3: watched it him and all the children perform, and I thought, Wow,
33:02
Speaker 3: you've done it. You've achieved your goal what you wanted
33:04
Speaker 3: to do. I'm just so so happy for the guy.
33:09
Speaker 2: So so that that.
33:10
Speaker 3: Was just one example and there and there are many.
33:15
Speaker 3: But the thing that comes to me, Brian is it's
33:19
Speaker 3: our level of consciousness. Now, if someone's trying to influence
33:23
Speaker 3: me in my mind, whether it's through the media or whatever,
33:27
Speaker 3: I'll notice that because I know what the signs are,
33:31
Speaker 3: and I'll take control and take responsibility for my own
33:35
Speaker 3: reaction and response to those things. But not everybody does that.
33:39
Speaker 3: A lot of people they don't read anything. They don't
33:41
Speaker 3: they've they left school and then that's the end of
33:44
Speaker 3: their education, and then their education from there on becomes
33:48
Speaker 3: whatever they see on their phone or their TV screen
33:51
Speaker 3: or whatever, So they would not notice whether they're being
33:55
Speaker 3: hypnotized or not. Unfortunately, and I think there's a large
33:58
Speaker 3: proportion of our population that are very susceptible to hypnosis
34:03
Speaker 3: because they can't see the signs. I mean, the signs
34:07
Speaker 3: at the beginning of COVID were just so in your face,
34:11
Speaker 3: so in your face that you know, only if you
34:14
Speaker 3: were your consciousness was at a level that I can
34:17
Speaker 3: notice these things. I can see these things that you
34:20
Speaker 3: would be able to resist what it is.
34:23
Speaker 1: Okay, David is very thank you for sharing that with us,
34:27
Speaker 1: and a very lovely story. It's very interesting that you
34:33
Speaker 1: talked about using techniques on that gentleman and and you're
34:39
Speaker 1: watching his reaction and you take him from a bad
34:42
Speaker 1: place into a better place. And then you've gone on
34:45
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit more. But now you've introduced
34:48
Speaker 1: another term, and that term is hypnosis. And therefore I
34:54
Speaker 1: have to ask, within the overall descriptor of NLP, what
35:02
Speaker 1: is talking and therapy might be the use of linguistics,
35:08
Speaker 1: when does the barrier change to hypnosis? Because if hypnosis
35:14
Speaker 1: is being used, as far as I understand, people are
35:19
Speaker 1: being taken into a brain state where they are not
35:22
Speaker 1: fully conscious and aware of what's happening of their surroundings
35:26
Speaker 1: or what's happening to them. So can you qualify that
35:30
Speaker 1: a bit? Where does hypnosis sit in the NLP suite
35:35
Speaker 1: of techniques?
35:37
Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm not trained in hypnosis, but I've done
35:41
Speaker 3: a lot of reading in hypnosis. I've been on events
35:44
Speaker 3: with hypnosis. But there's nothing new in hypnosis that are
35:49
Speaker 3: different kind of levels of hypnosis. So for example, the
35:53
Speaker 3: most basic, you know, even a person who doesn't know
35:56
Speaker 3: anything about hypnosis can put you in a trance. Right, So,
35:59
Speaker 3: for example, the guy in the office who never stops
36:03
Speaker 3: talking and you just manage to you know, you're passing
36:05
Speaker 3: him in the corridor and you're saying to yourself, oh,
36:07
Speaker 3: I hope he doesn't say anything, because this guy I
36:09
Speaker 3: never get away from him, you know, And suddenly he
36:11
Speaker 3: start he says.
36:12
Speaker 2: Oh, hi, Brian, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah,
36:14
Speaker 2: and suddenly you're listening to him. Right.
36:16
Speaker 3: So unless you say to him, sorry, I'm an urgent meeting,
36:21
Speaker 3: I need to talk to you later and go, that
36:23
Speaker 3: would be someone that's consciously aware, although other people will
36:28
Speaker 3: just be stand there and wait for him to finish
36:29
Speaker 3: talking totally fixed.
36:31
Speaker 2: Now that's hypnosis.
36:32
Speaker 3: The guy has got you in him notic trance because
36:34
Speaker 3: you don't no longer have that sense of I'm in
36:38
Speaker 3: charge of who I am, so you there listening to him.
36:43
Speaker 3: So you know, there's another form of hypnosis. If somebody
36:49
Speaker 3: holds their hand out to shake your hand, you know,
36:52
Speaker 3: you know what that gesture is. You'll go and shake
36:54
Speaker 3: their hand. But suddenly if halfway through of their hand
36:57
Speaker 3: coming out, you open your arms and give them a lug.
37:01
Speaker 3: Then they'll follow you, so they're kind of following following you,
37:05
Speaker 3: and that's that's a kind of a mild form of hypnosis.
37:09
Speaker 2: But then.
37:10
Speaker 3: There's self hypnosis, so just kind of relaxing yourself and
37:15
Speaker 3: and using you know, what's called artfully vague language, which
37:19
Speaker 3: we can get into if we have a.
37:21
Speaker 2: Little bit more time, just to calm your mind and.
37:26
Speaker 3: Relax yourself from give yourself a sense of a sense
37:29
Speaker 3: of focus or.
37:30
Speaker 2: Whatever that might be.
37:32
Speaker 3: So a hypnotherapist will it all begins with rapport, So
37:38
Speaker 3: have some rapport with your client first and notice what's
37:42
Speaker 3: going on with the client. So a broad brush would
37:49
Speaker 3: be using hypnosis because it's I think that this would
37:54
Speaker 3: be a better technique to use considering the condition that
37:58
Speaker 3: you have. Or it might be that actually this is
38:01
Speaker 3: my specialist area and I will use hypnosis to help you.
38:07
Speaker 2: It's kind of a it's kind of a choice. I think.
38:10
Speaker 3: At some stage I was watching a Richard Bandler presentation
38:14
Speaker 3: and he said, he said, well, these days, he said,
38:16
Speaker 3: I always use hypnosis because I'm just fed up a
38:18
Speaker 3: listening to people's sub stories. Well I can understand that.
38:24
Speaker 3: I can understand that.
38:28
Speaker 1: But he's in saying that he's he's demonstrating. And I
38:35
Speaker 1: use this phrase because if I remember, if I remember
38:39
Speaker 1: a little bit later in this discussion or comment on
38:46
Speaker 1: a paragraph of a book where it's talking about power,
38:49
Speaker 1: when he makes that statement, that's a pretty hard statement.
38:54
Speaker 1: These people are very weak. Therefore, I am going to
38:58
Speaker 1: use this more sophisticated technique, hypnosis in order to get
39:03
Speaker 1: where I want I want to be? Or am I
39:07
Speaker 1: being cynical?
39:09
Speaker 2: I think a.
39:09
Speaker 3: Little bit there, Brian, Yeah. All I can say it
39:15
Speaker 3: say is that you know I've done. I did a
39:21
Speaker 3: practitioner course, I did an introduction a practitioner, a master practitioner,
39:24
Speaker 3: a trainer training, and then I went on and I
39:27
Speaker 3: offered myself as a facilitator on four or five or
39:30
Speaker 3: other you.
39:31
Speaker 2: Know, different.
39:34
Speaker 3: Organizations NLP courses, and then I went on to do
39:38
Speaker 3: a trainer training for three three weeks with with Wyatt Woodsmall.
39:42
Speaker 3: I've never seen I've never experienced anybody trying.
39:46
Speaker 2: To use it with malice.
39:47
Speaker 3: All I've seen is just really really great experiences from
39:54
Speaker 3: people from using n LP And I think that's you know,
40:02
Speaker 3: it's down to our again. It comes back to being
40:04
Speaker 3: down to our level of consciousness. You know, what are
40:06
Speaker 3: we aware of? And I think what hypnosis does is
40:09
Speaker 3: it gives us a little bit more perspective on what
40:11
Speaker 3: we are aware of and kind of not aware of.
40:17
Speaker 3: You know, hypnosis has been used in dentistry, in medicine
40:23
Speaker 3: and a lot of places. But I don't want to
40:25
Speaker 3: say one thing. The thing about NLP one of the
40:28
Speaker 3: things that a lot of people don't like, and it
40:32
Speaker 3: tends to be the people who are formally.
40:35
Speaker 2: Trained in medicine.
40:39
Speaker 3: For example, and and Richard Banger and Grinda came up
40:44
Speaker 3: against this very early on because they wanted to work.
40:47
Speaker 2: They were working with.
40:50
Speaker 3: Mentally ill patients in the hospitals in California, and of
40:55
Speaker 3: course the doctors didn't like the fact that, oh they've
40:58
Speaker 3: been treating this guy for six nine months and had
41:02
Speaker 3: no improvement, and okay, Richard band can come along and
41:05
Speaker 3: fix him in ten minutes.
41:06
Speaker 2: That's not right, you know. So it didn't do them
41:11
Speaker 2: any favors in the days.
41:13
Speaker 3: Now. The thing is about NLP. And let's let's take
41:16
Speaker 3: the NHS for example. And I have delivered to NLP
41:20
Speaker 3: training with within the ANHS, but the NHS would never
41:24
Speaker 3: offer NLP. And the reason they would never offer it
41:27
Speaker 3: is because they can only offer things that can.
41:30
Speaker 2: Be prescribed, very prescriptive. You know, this is a procedure.
41:36
Speaker 3: It goes from one to ten, and that's what you do,
41:38
Speaker 3: and they offer that to everybody, regardless of what their
41:41
Speaker 3: issue is. NP doesn't work like that. NLP is a
41:45
Speaker 3: it's very eclectic. The skill is not in any particular procedure,
41:52
Speaker 3: but in the practitioner noticing what's happening with the clients
41:58
Speaker 3: such that they can suggest the best possible or choose
42:02
Speaker 3: the best possible way forward, whether it's this technique, that technique,
42:07
Speaker 3: hypnosis or not hypno, whatever it might be. You notice
42:11
Speaker 3: things happening with the client. Now that would be very
42:13
Speaker 3: difficult to train within the NHS because they just used
42:17
Speaker 3: to procedures. You do this, then you do this, and
42:20
Speaker 3: you do this, then you do this regardless of the patient. Right, well,
42:23
Speaker 3: for all patients with NOP, it's like it's very personal.
42:27
Speaker 3: I'm working with you and so I'm noticing your eye movements,
42:31
Speaker 3: I'm noticing your voice tones, I'm noticing your physiology, I'm
42:35
Speaker 3: noticing the color of your skin. I'm noticing all the
42:37
Speaker 3: things about you that connect so that I can not
42:42
Speaker 3: only get a good rapport and get some trust going
42:45
Speaker 3: so that I can help you in the best possible
42:47
Speaker 3: way or help you to help yourself in the.
42:49
Speaker 2: Best possible way. It would be the best thing to say.
42:53
Speaker 2: And so therefore.
42:56
Speaker 3: What the NHS did is to say, well, let's take
43:00
Speaker 3: a little bit of NLP and let's call it cognitive
43:04
Speaker 3: behavioral therapy.
43:07
Speaker 1: I was going to mention CBT, and you've you've brought
43:10
Speaker 1: it in nicely, so yes, carry on.
43:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, because that can be a procedure that you can
43:15
Speaker 3: give to anybody and who supposedly will use it to
43:18
Speaker 3: fix fix someone.
43:19
Speaker 2: So there's a very very big difference.
43:21
Speaker 3: So because NLP can't be put in a box, it
43:24
Speaker 3: can't be constrained in that way, and that the key
43:29
Speaker 3: to success with NLP is with the actual practitioner in
43:34
Speaker 3: what they notice and how they use those techniques. They
43:39
Speaker 3: won't they won't use it, they won't have it, they
43:41
Speaker 3: can't put it in a book in a box. So
43:43
Speaker 3: so so they'll naysay it and say no NLPs.
43:46
Speaker 1: But they but they do promote CBT very strongly. If
43:51
Speaker 1: you go on most well, if you go on the
43:54
Speaker 1: NHS main website, I've found quite a lot written about
44:01
Speaker 1: c b T and the use of CBT by the NHS.
44:06
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, c b T for sure.
44:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they've they've taken a small element of n
44:11
Speaker 3: LP and put it in a box.
44:13
Speaker 2: It's no longer n l P. It's c BT. That's
44:18
Speaker 2: that's the thing.
44:18
Speaker 1: So and if sorry, just let me let me get
44:22
Speaker 1: this one over to you as well. Is therefore mindfulness?
44:27
Speaker 1: Is that a similar situation where one particular element of
44:33
Speaker 1: of the n l P library as has is being
44:38
Speaker 1: used and it's called mindfulness. Is mindfulness equivalent c BT?
44:45
Speaker 2: It's another good example. Yeah.
44:47
Speaker 3: So, so mindfulness has a prescription.
44:52
Speaker 2: This is how you do it.
44:53
Speaker 3: This is how you do mindfulness, and everyone can do
44:56
Speaker 3: it the same way. I think mindfulness is it's like,
45:04
Speaker 3: although it's kind of a therapy, I don't think it's
45:06
Speaker 3: aimed at resolving anything. It's I'm kind of helping the
45:10
Speaker 3: mind to calm down so that you don't feel so
45:13
Speaker 3: stressed anymore. And I don't think it's necessarily come from
45:19
Speaker 3: NLP though. I think it's you know, there's a lot
45:21
Speaker 3: of people being talking about calming the mind, you know,
45:25
Speaker 3: keeping the mind quiet, you know, the monkey mind that
45:28
Speaker 3: kind of thing.
45:28
Speaker 2: A lot of psychologists over the.
45:30
Speaker 3: Time have been talking about this anyway, and I think,
45:33
Speaker 3: you know, mindfulness has kind of come out of you know,
45:36
Speaker 3: that kind of work.
45:38
Speaker 2: Okay.
45:40
Speaker 1: Another question which comes into my head is that you've
45:43
Speaker 1: talked about the reluctance of the NHS to adopt some
45:48
Speaker 1: of the NLP techniques. You've said because they're not prescriptive,
45:54
Speaker 1: but also there's quite a lot of interaction with an
45:59
Speaker 1: injured with an individual required in order to use the NLP.
46:03
Speaker 1: You've you've talked about paying attention to their body language
46:06
Speaker 1: and eye movements and and so you're really engaging with somebody.
46:11
Speaker 1: There's a slight irony here, I think, because many people
46:14
Speaker 1: would say, well, that's what GPS used to do, that's
46:18
Speaker 1: what the doctor used to do when somebody came to
46:21
Speaker 1: them who was unwell. They would actually be talking to
46:24
Speaker 1: that patient and spending time really trying to understand what
46:28
Speaker 1: was the matter with them, whereas in the present day
46:31
Speaker 1: many people would say, we've we've got a young GP
46:34
Speaker 1: sat in front of a computer and they just want
46:38
Speaker 1: enough information to enter in the commuter into the computer
46:42
Speaker 1: in order for it to tell them what drug they
46:46
Speaker 1: should prescribe, so there's very little interaction between the GP
46:52
Speaker 1: and the patient.
46:54
Speaker 2: I agree, I'd agree.
46:55
Speaker 3: And you know, coming back to the fact that you know,
46:59
Speaker 3: there's nothing invented about NLP, It was just modeled from
47:03
Speaker 3: other people. There will be, or there used to be,
47:06
Speaker 3: and there probably still is. Some doctors that are very
47:10
Speaker 3: tuned into their patients and pay a lot of attention to.
47:12
Speaker 2: What they're doing. And you know, they whether they're using
47:15
Speaker 2: NLP or not. You know, this is a natural thing
47:19
Speaker 2: to do. You know.
47:20
Speaker 3: So if I'm speaking to someone with someone and as
47:27
Speaker 3: I'm talking, I noticed their eyes go up to the right,
47:31
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, oh, they just had an image in
47:33
Speaker 3: their mind.
47:34
Speaker 2: I wonder what they're thinking of.
47:35
Speaker 3: Is it something that I've said that they've connected with,
47:39
Speaker 3: or is it something else that's coming in interfering with
47:41
Speaker 3: our connection. So as I might ask them and say, yes,
47:48
Speaker 3: stop what I'm saying, and to say what's on your
47:50
Speaker 3: mind at the moment and find out what that is. Now,
47:54
Speaker 3: a doctor might naturally, naturally do that without any training.
47:57
Speaker 3: You know, he notices the client is doing something thing,
48:00
Speaker 3: is doing some processing. You may not know what it is,
48:03
Speaker 3: but he might say what was that a thought you had,
48:06
Speaker 3: what you're thinking about right now, because that might be
48:09
Speaker 3: absolutely crucial too, you know, to the healing process. You know,
48:14
Speaker 3: if there could be something getting in the way, it
48:16
Speaker 3: could be a limiting belief of value or some bad
48:19
Speaker 3: experience that they're recalling or something like that. So so yeah,
48:24
Speaker 3: I think I'm not I'm not certainly not comfortable in
48:29
Speaker 3: front of a doctor these days. Uh.
48:33
Speaker 2: And but I have met one or two.
48:38
Speaker 3: Doctors. In fact, I met a heart surgeon that was
48:42
Speaker 3: treating treating my wife and he was terrific, Absolutely terrific guy.
48:47
Speaker 3: I thought, But you know, a heart surgeon up in
48:52
Speaker 3: the higher exulons of of the health health system rather
48:57
Speaker 3: than you know, the people that are kind of down
48:59
Speaker 3: below just seeing just trying to deal the drugs.
49:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, now where do I want to go?
49:08
Speaker 3: Right?
49:08
Speaker 1: Just before we I want to get back to the
49:10
Speaker 1: bad guys. But you've taken us through positive things about
49:17
Speaker 1: NLP and techniques. You also briefly talked about the problem
49:24
Speaker 1: of people not being aware or really not studying and
49:29
Speaker 1: paying attention to what's happening to learning. You said to
49:34
Speaker 1: me previously when I said, well, what can people do
49:37
Speaker 1: to protect themselves? From should we call it malicious application
49:42
Speaker 1: or political application of NLP techniques? And you said people
49:48
Speaker 1: need to be aware of what those tech techniques are
49:52
Speaker 1: so they they're pre warned and this then provides them
49:57
Speaker 1: with some defense. Could you elaborate on that a bit.
50:02
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's a lot easier these days because
50:04
Speaker 3: we know if the government's telling us something, we should
50:07
Speaker 3: be ignoring.
50:07
Speaker 2: It, right.
50:08
Speaker 3: So, you know, you and I have raised our consciousness
50:13
Speaker 3: to the level that we know to do that.
50:15
Speaker 2: Right.
50:16
Speaker 3: There are some people that are still following. But the
50:17
Speaker 3: government's saying, how have they not got that picture? How
50:22
Speaker 3: they not not realized that? You know, this is that
50:25
Speaker 3: they're trying to influence your mind and your behavior. And
50:30
Speaker 3: these are people that probably never been in a self
50:33
Speaker 3: help bookshop ever. You know, these are people that, let
50:37
Speaker 3: you know, that left school and thought, ah, my learning
50:40
Speaker 3: is finished.
50:41
Speaker 2: Now it's time to have a family and eat some
50:44
Speaker 2: chocolate or whatever it might be. I don't know what's TV.
50:48
Speaker 3: There's still a lot of those people around you know
50:50
Speaker 3: that that have no interest in improving themselves. And I
50:54
Speaker 3: think this is going to create a bit of a
50:56
Speaker 3: divide in society. And you know, and it's not the
51:03
Speaker 3: usual divide of you know, rich and poor. It's not
51:07
Speaker 3: the usual divide of qualified unqualified. It's it's it's higher
51:13
Speaker 3: consciousness or lower consciousness. I think that's that's that's the case.
51:17
Speaker 3: And and for me, you know, n op is a
51:20
Speaker 3: is a wonderful way of exploring how the mind works,
51:24
Speaker 3: how it's connected to the body, understanding you know, hypnosis,
51:28
Speaker 3: whether that's from someone else or self hypnosis, such that
51:33
Speaker 3: you do notice when people are trying to influence you
51:38
Speaker 3: in some way, and if that's a positive influence, then
51:41
Speaker 3: let's have some you know. But if it's a negative influence,
51:44
Speaker 3: so we can go Sorry, John, not today.
51:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, So being being informed is a very good position
51:51
Speaker 1: to be in because if you've done your research and
51:55
Speaker 1: you've read the books, not only have you got that
51:58
Speaker 1: knowledge in your head and you can use it, but actually, yeah,
52:01
Speaker 1: I think most people grow from spending time researching and
52:07
Speaker 1: learning and reading what others have written on various subjects.
52:10
Speaker 1: So I think there's there's a lot of common sense
52:13
Speaker 1: in that. To my right tier on the on the
52:19
Speaker 1: little note table, I've I've got a series of books
52:21
Speaker 1: which will make sure they're listed together with this interview
52:26
Speaker 1: but I'll bring some up on camera. So I've got
52:30
Speaker 1: the original The Structure of Magic by Bandler and Grinda. Well,
52:38
Speaker 1: the other one I've got is Reframing. I don't know
52:41
Speaker 1: if that's number two. Yeah, and we just say to
52:45
Speaker 1: people that Bandler and Grinda have I got this right.
52:49
Speaker 1: One was a psychologist and one was a computer programmer,
52:53
Speaker 1: which probably gives the reason that we got to neuro
52:57
Speaker 1: linguistic programming.
52:59
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Grinda was a linguistics professor.
53:02
Speaker 1: I think, right, okay. And another book here is on mindfulness,
53:10
Speaker 1: which I've mentioned, And then let's go in a different direction.
53:16
Speaker 1: Now this book I was you can see my notes
53:19
Speaker 1: in the sticking up from the top of it. This
53:22
Speaker 1: is Changing Behaviors on the Rise of the Psychological State.
53:27
Speaker 1: And it's by three university academics, Rece Jones, Jessica Pikett,
53:34
Speaker 1: Mark Whitehead. And this book is now very very difficult
53:39
Speaker 1: to get hold of, but I found it. I found
53:44
Speaker 1: it to be a fantastic book because these three individuals
53:49
Speaker 1: had effectively researched and written about the chronology of the
53:55
Speaker 1: use of NLP or behavioral change techniques inside the British government.
54:01
Speaker 1: I was just trying to look at the date here
54:03
Speaker 1: for this book twenty thirteen actually it was written. And
54:06
Speaker 1: at one point there's a table which I may be
54:10
Speaker 1: able to just get in front of the camera, hopefully
54:13
Speaker 1: you won't be able to read it, but just to
54:15
Speaker 1: show that there's a table there and in huge detail
54:19
Speaker 1: with the date listed down the left hand side. They're
54:24
Speaker 1: talking about publications that were being used at on Sory
54:30
Speaker 1: in that particular year, and then they were also talking
54:34
Speaker 1: about people and events connected and the start of the
54:40
Speaker 1: table is two thousand to two thousand and three. They're
54:44
Speaker 1: mentioning a publication called Libertarian Paternalism is Not an oxymoron.
54:51
Speaker 1: And then the key people that they're talking about at
54:54
Speaker 1: that stage were indeed Sunstein and Taylor or Taylor who
54:59
Speaker 1: I believe you mentioned a few moments ago. But they
55:03
Speaker 1: take it right the way through so that you can
55:06
Speaker 1: see what meetings were taking place in the higher levels
55:09
Speaker 1: of government, and you can see that a huge amount
55:14
Speaker 1: of government attention was being focused on learning more and
55:19
Speaker 1: more about behavioral insights reframing techniques. And then, of course
55:27
Speaker 1: I've already said that the government had produced this Cabinet
55:31
Speaker 1: Office document on the use of these techniques to get
55:35
Speaker 1: people to do what the government wants them to do. Now,
55:38
Speaker 1: of course, the government suggested from the outset that it
55:43
Speaker 1: was being very nice, and they were very quick to
55:46
Speaker 1: use this wonderful term nudge. We're just giving people a
55:50
Speaker 1: little nudge to get them to do the things the
55:53
Speaker 1: government thinks are the right things to do. I've got
55:56
Speaker 1: some other things to say, but I'll let you respond
55:58
Speaker 1: to it. Should we be trusting government nudges?
56:04
Speaker 2: We'll just take the.
56:05
Speaker 3: Word nudges away, and no, we shouldn't be trusting the
56:09
Speaker 3: government with anything, nothing at all. They've proved themselves that
56:17
Speaker 3: to be the enemy of the people.
56:20
Speaker 2: That's simple.
56:20
Speaker 3: And once you reach that conclusion that our government is
56:23
Speaker 3: the enemy of the people, you don't trust anything that
56:26
Speaker 3: they do or say anymore.
56:28
Speaker 2: Some people do.
56:29
Speaker 3: Some people still think they're going to vote in Nigel
56:32
Speaker 3: Fararge and everything will be fine. You know, really, you
56:36
Speaker 3: know that the corruption in the system is so deep.
56:39
Speaker 3: You know that it's I would say, it's hard to
56:44
Speaker 3: keep your head above water and stay morally, you know,
56:47
Speaker 3: intact within that system.
56:48
Speaker 2: It's just all around you.
56:50
Speaker 3: It's a seething mess of corruption, deceit, lies, whatever else.
56:57
Speaker 3: So no, I would not trust anyone that was connected
57:00
Speaker 3: with with Westminster with anything.
57:03
Speaker 2: Whether it's nudge or or anything at all. And that's
57:06
Speaker 2: the key thing.
57:08
Speaker 3: And again that's something that you have to research and realize.
57:11
Speaker 3: You know that these people who are supposed to be
57:14
Speaker 3: serving us as civil servants are not. They're serving themselves
57:19
Speaker 3: and they detest us except for the fact that they
57:23
Speaker 3: can extract huge amounts of taxes that they can put
57:25
Speaker 3: into line their own pockets with or go and murder
57:29
Speaker 3: somebody with. It's just it's just crazy.
57:33
Speaker 1: Well, David, you're not mincing words there, and so thank
57:40
Speaker 1: you for that. One of the things that you mentioned
57:46
Speaker 1: when we first spoke was that you had been very surprised,
57:50
Speaker 1: if not stunned, at the lack of reaction two not
57:57
Speaker 1: only the political use of n LP, but dangers associated
58:01
Speaker 1: with that, the use of that NLP colleagues, other NLP
58:07
Speaker 1: trained colleagues were not standing up to say this is wrong.
58:12
Speaker 1: And you'd express surprise that there was such a limited
58:17
Speaker 1: reaction amongst the NLP professional community against this political use
58:23
Speaker 1: of these techniques.
58:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
58:27
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. I mean, I will always
58:29
Speaker 3: been a bit of a rebel. I've always been one
58:31
Speaker 3: to call things out if I could. But I think
58:34
Speaker 3: there's you know, the chose training organizations are making a
58:38
Speaker 3: lot of money. Some of them are having you know,
58:42
Speaker 3: NLP seven day seminars and they'd be one hundred, two hundred,
58:46
Speaker 3: three hundred. If it comes to Tony Robbins, you know,
58:49
Speaker 3: he'd have thousands of people in the same room, so
58:51
Speaker 3: would Bandler and Grinda. There'd be thousands of people there.
58:55
Speaker 3: So you know, I guess they don't want to destroy
58:58
Speaker 3: their income stream by you know, I mean I spoke
59:01
Speaker 3: out on LinkedIn because that's where all the NLP trainers
59:05
Speaker 3: were on LinkedIn and cities. Hey, look, this is hypnosis
59:09
Speaker 3: by the government. You know this, let's call it. We
59:12
Speaker 3: need to call it out. No one called it out.
59:14
Speaker 3: My account was closed in the next day because I
59:18
Speaker 3: didn't did agree with with with what I was saying.
59:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was.
59:25
Speaker 3: I was very disappointed, really modern surprise, disappointed that we
59:31
Speaker 3: could we could be calling it out.
59:33
Speaker 1: So could it? Could it be there's probably a little
59:36
Speaker 1: bit of a naughty comment from me, but could it
59:38
Speaker 1: be that some of those trained NLP professionals need a
59:42
Speaker 1: bit more of your advice, which is that they need
59:45
Speaker 1: to do a bit more learning so that they would
59:47
Speaker 1: understand that they are themselves under threat.
59:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, you tell them, you tell them that. Bro Okay,
59:58
Speaker 2: well I think yeah.
1:00:00
Speaker 3: And I think you know, there are some fantastic NLP
1:00:02
Speaker 3: trainers out there, you know, but there are, but they
1:00:04
Speaker 3: are still human.
1:00:05
Speaker 2: There's still human beings.
1:00:07
Speaker 3: And I think there is a danger that and I
1:00:09
Speaker 3: think you mentioned it in your in your article that
1:00:12
Speaker 3: you know, you can get to a level that you
1:00:13
Speaker 3: feel you're untouchable, you know, and and it's never the case.
1:00:18
Speaker 3: You know, you have to remain humble. You have to
1:00:20
Speaker 3: remain the fact that I am human. I know I've
1:00:24
Speaker 3: learned all these fantastic ways of helping people, but I
1:00:29
Speaker 3: also need to, you know, take responsibility for myself too.
1:00:34
Speaker 3: We're all working progress. No one has achieved the ultimate. Hey,
1:00:39
Speaker 3: I'm all done now, we're all still learning.
1:00:43
Speaker 1: Okay, Now that's that's fair comment. Now, I know I
1:00:47
Speaker 1: on the clock, but I wanted to close on some
1:00:52
Speaker 1: serious stuff because we hope ultimately that people are going
1:00:56
Speaker 1: to learn from this discussion and they're going to do
1:00:58
Speaker 1: their research and that'll help them protect themselves. But I've
1:01:02
Speaker 1: got another book here called the indoctrinated brain. This is
1:01:06
Speaker 1: why a German doctor called Michael Nells. I had the
1:01:12
Speaker 1: opportunity to interview him a couple of years ago. Really
1:01:17
Speaker 1: interesting man, and he wrote this whole book because he
1:01:21
Speaker 1: was outraged at how COVID nineteen and the lockdown was
1:01:26
Speaker 1: used by governments not only in UK but in the
1:01:32
Speaker 1: western hemisphere of the States as well to control people.
1:01:36
Speaker 1: And in particular, his book is talking about the huge
1:01:41
Speaker 1: damage that the COVID period did on people's minds, the
1:01:46
Speaker 1: huge rise in depression and a whole range of other problems,
1:01:50
Speaker 1: not only as a result of fear, but as a
1:01:53
Speaker 1: result of people being denied normal human, loving human interaction
1:02:00
Speaker 1: within families or with strangers, with strangers. So it's a
1:02:06
Speaker 1: very powerful book. He's a neuro man himself, so we're
1:02:11
Speaker 1: not just talking a GPS. He's working at the higher
1:02:18
Speaker 1: levels of the brain. And he was very, very outspoken
1:02:23
Speaker 1: in saying that what was done, what the techniques that
1:02:27
Speaker 1: were unleashed on the public, were outrageous and very dangerous.
1:02:32
Speaker 1: And of course, the other thing that I touched on
1:02:34
Speaker 1: with you previously, and I think we just should revisit it,
1:02:38
Speaker 1: is the fact that during the COVID period in UK
1:02:43
Speaker 1: the lockdown, the British government had set up a team
1:02:47
Speaker 1: of scientists which they called SAGE, nice little acronym there.
1:02:53
Speaker 1: But within SAGE there was another specialist unit called spy B,
1:02:58
Speaker 1: and minutes of that internal organization spy BE revealed that
1:03:07
Speaker 1: they were discussing making people more fearful, using techniques behavioral
1:03:14
Speaker 1: techniques to make people feel more fearful of the whole
1:03:18
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen environment in order that people would adhere more
1:03:23
Speaker 1: closely to the government's rules and regulations. And when I
1:03:30
Speaker 1: first saw these minutes, my lay person brain said, this
1:03:35
Speaker 1: is amazingly dangerous. But of course later on the minutes
1:03:40
Speaker 1: did circulate a bit more widely in the public sphere
1:03:44
Speaker 1: and other professionals were saying that this was very dangerous.
1:03:48
Speaker 1: So I know that you're aware of this action by
1:03:53
Speaker 1: the government to induce greater fear in the population during COVID.
1:03:59
Speaker 1: Why do you think they did that and what do
1:04:01
Speaker 1: you consider the risks of that political agenda?
1:04:07
Speaker 3: Well, I think they were told to do it. I
1:04:08
Speaker 3: think all the people that we can see on that
1:04:12
Speaker 3: stage from stage Behavioral Insights Institute government are doing what
1:04:18
Speaker 3: they're told to do.
1:04:20
Speaker 2: By a higher.
1:04:21
Speaker 3: Power that wants to instill so much fear that we
1:04:25
Speaker 3: all go and get the poison job.
1:04:27
Speaker 2: That's that's my that's the way I think about it.
1:04:31
Speaker 3: But I think I think you know your point about
1:04:34
Speaker 3: you know, people making themselves aware.
1:04:37
Speaker 2: Read some books.
1:04:38
Speaker 3: I think the books you've you've shown a great examples.
1:04:44
Speaker 3: But I think what's even more concerning is that is
1:04:47
Speaker 3: the children.
1:04:48
Speaker 2: Now, so this isn't so much NLP. It's we know
1:04:54
Speaker 2: that if you can get a.
1:04:55
Speaker 3: Child at a young age three, four, five, six, seven
1:04:58
Speaker 3: years old, they're brain is very, very plastic. You can
1:05:03
Speaker 3: teach them anything, they'll lap it up. But then once
1:05:06
Speaker 3: the child is seven or eight years old, that is
1:05:09
Speaker 3: they developed that as part of their personality. So they're
1:05:14
Speaker 3: going after the children in the schools, and the school
1:05:17
Speaker 3: curriculum has changed in order to feed children with all
1:05:22
Speaker 3: this indoctrination. So if you're a parent or a grandparent,
1:05:26
Speaker 3: then certainly I would encourage you to do some research,
1:05:31
Speaker 3: get some books, read into it, look into it, find
1:05:34
Speaker 3: out what's going on, go to the school look ask
1:05:36
Speaker 3: to look at the curriculum, because you know, once the
1:05:40
Speaker 3: child comes out at seven or eight years old, then
1:05:44
Speaker 3: they're going to have that personality ongoing into adulthood.
1:05:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, a very very good point. And of course children
1:05:54
Speaker 1: are our future, so it's beholden on all of us
1:05:58
Speaker 1: as adults to look on to the children. Otherwise we
1:06:02
Speaker 1: don't leave anything on the planet. The other thing, of course,
1:06:07
Speaker 1: by talking to your children is you're helping to teach
1:06:11
Speaker 1: your children how to think independently for themselves. And I
1:06:15
Speaker 1: know that this is this is one of the increasing
1:06:18
Speaker 1: complaints of the state education system that it is very
1:06:23
Speaker 1: much teaching children that they have to know certain things
1:06:28
Speaker 1: by rote and not to be free thinkers. But you're
1:06:34
Speaker 1: here expressing very much that if people are helping to
1:06:39
Speaker 1: keep their brain in a informed and thinking mode, that
1:06:42
Speaker 1: is great protection to the to the use of these
1:06:46
Speaker 1: reframing techniques.
1:06:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know.
1:06:50
Speaker 3: I think what I would say that one of the
1:06:53
Speaker 3: good things to come out of all this hawful stuff
1:06:56
Speaker 3: that we're unveiling, you know, is that is that this
1:07:01
Speaker 3: is the era in our super learning. I think, you know,
1:07:04
Speaker 3: we all have to learn so much. I mean, I've
1:07:06
Speaker 3: read so many books in the last five or six
1:07:08
Speaker 3: years compared to I thought I was reading a lot
1:07:11
Speaker 3: of books until we got to twenty and twenty, I've
1:07:16
Speaker 3: probably trebled my capacity of what I'm reading, what I'm researching,
1:07:19
Speaker 3: what I'm looking into. And of course there's still a
1:07:23
Speaker 3: large part of the population that are not doing that.
1:07:27
Speaker 3: They're not and so I can see this gap widening that,
1:07:31
Speaker 3: you know, between people that just still going from day
1:07:34
Speaker 3: to day, part of the system in the matrix, doing
1:07:36
Speaker 3: what they're you know, looking for satisfaction in everything, you know,
1:07:42
Speaker 3: having no ambition, just living from day to day, and
1:07:45
Speaker 3: then the people that are really know that they need
1:07:49
Speaker 3: to learn. There's lots to learn about now, there's so
1:07:51
Speaker 3: much to learn.
1:07:51
Speaker 1: About coming up to the top of the hour. So
1:07:57
Speaker 1: one last question, and that is that many people are
1:08:01
Speaker 1: feeling under huge pressure. They know something's wrong at the moment.
1:08:06
Speaker 1: They've been through all the horrors of COVID nineteen and lockdown,
1:08:12
Speaker 1: the wars overseas, the constant talk with the government of threats,
1:08:17
Speaker 1: whether it's the whether it's climate change or the price
1:08:21
Speaker 1: of oil or the rising food prices. There's a lot
1:08:24
Speaker 1: of fear being delivered to the public. And we certainly
1:08:30
Speaker 1: know here at the UK column that many people are
1:08:33
Speaker 1: feeling fearful and anxious just to end by giving people
1:08:39
Speaker 1: a little idea of what they can do to lift
1:08:42
Speaker 1: their spirits and become more effective at fighting back against
1:08:47
Speaker 1: the matrix as you've described it.
1:08:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I think number one. If you have a
1:08:55
Speaker 3: TV in the center of the room and other chairs
1:08:58
Speaker 3: around it, which is the typical layer, then change it.
1:09:01
Speaker 3: Don't make the TV the center of your of your life.
1:09:05
Speaker 3: Don't look to entertainment if you get tired, look for
1:09:08
Speaker 3: something more constructive than that. Don't stop feeling as if
1:09:12
Speaker 3: you Oh, I think I'll just watch a movie tonight.
1:09:15
Speaker 3: I'll just watch this and watch that. The propaganda is
1:09:18
Speaker 3: coming through the TV like crazy. He's coming through not
1:09:20
Speaker 3: just news, it's coming through programs. It's coming through sitcoms,
1:09:24
Speaker 3: it's coming through cartoons and everything. So stop watching the TV.
1:09:30
Speaker 3: Start watching things that make some sense. So, for example,
1:09:33
Speaker 3: yesterday I found a fantastic new video by Bill Cooper,
1:09:37
Speaker 3: or one of Bill Cooper's videos, and it was the
1:09:41
Speaker 3: Life of Bill Cooper.
1:09:42
Speaker 2: And I thought, wow, you know, I know, I thought
1:09:43
Speaker 2: I knew about this.
1:09:44
Speaker 1: You're talking, you're talking Bill Cooper. Behold a pale horse.
1:09:49
Speaker 2: That's the guy.
1:09:50
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yes, yeah, yeah, And I learned you know,
1:09:54
Speaker 3: there's still a lot more I learned learned from that,
1:09:56
Speaker 3: so so get rid of the TV. Don't listen to everything.
1:10:01
Speaker 3: Question everything, question every single thing that you hear. Don't
1:10:06
Speaker 3: take anything for granted, even if you have trust in
1:10:11
Speaker 3: the person saying it. Just don't take anything for granted
1:10:14
Speaker 3: unless you research it yourself. And and and stay relaxed
1:10:21
Speaker 3: and stay can't stay can't If you get a sense
1:10:25
Speaker 3: and I hope that most people do, get a sense
1:10:28
Speaker 3: that you want to do something to to try and
1:10:31
Speaker 3: stop what's happening, then find some group to join you
1:10:35
Speaker 3: you can, you can share with, but you know, and
1:10:39
Speaker 3: and have some humility in it as well, I think
1:10:41
Speaker 3: is the key thing.
1:10:43
Speaker 2: And protect the children. I think that's it.
1:10:48
Speaker 1: Brilliant David, thank you very much. That was really enjoyable
1:10:52
Speaker 1: and I think we covered we covered some really good
1:10:56
Speaker 1: points there. I could have gone on for another two hours,
1:10:59
Speaker 1: but no, that's absolutely perfect. So that's a thank you
1:11:06
Speaker 1: to the audience for joining us. And who knows, maybe
1:11:09
Speaker 1: we can do some more in due course.
1:11:12
Speaker 3: Well there's plenty more to discuss, Brian, so any thank
1:11:15
Speaker 3: you very much.
1:11:15
Speaker 2: It's been a very enjoyable hour. Thanks