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Can psychic detectives really solve crimes? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious ex M Triumph
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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Welcome to a special New Year's
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Speaker 1: Day edition of Crime Stories with Nancy Grits. We start
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Speaker 1: eighteen by looking at psychic detectives who helped solve crimes.
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Speaker 1: Believe them or not, their stories are fascinating. I never
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Speaker 1: once introduced a psychic into court because a it's not
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Speaker 1: hard evidence be the defense would cross examine those witnesses
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Speaker 1: to h E, double l and back. So in my
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Speaker 1: world as a felony prosecutor, if I can't see it,
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Speaker 1: touch it, smell it, here it, it doesn't exist in
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Speaker 1: the world of hard evidence. And my job was to
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Speaker 1: put hard evidence in front of a jury to prove
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Speaker 1: somebody needed to go to jail for the rest of
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Speaker 1: their life or worse. But then everything changed. I Meancy Grace,
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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: What do you think about psychics and specifically about psychic detectives,
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Speaker 1: because today we have an all star lineup of some
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Speaker 1: of the most well known psychics in the world to
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Speaker 1: talk about not just does another realm exist, but what
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Speaker 1: they have done to help solve criminal cases. With me,
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Speaker 1: Noreen Rnair gil st John, Alison Dubois and of course
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Speaker 1: death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan forensic expert, to weigh in
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Speaker 1: on the let's just say the world of here and
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Speaker 1: now and Alan, Jackie Howard, We're all here and again
2:02
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I'll tell you just
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Speaker 1: got mortgage. It's you an ideal and harsh reality and
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Speaker 1: cold hard fact. Before I get to our ladies, just
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Speaker 1: got Come on. If I tried to bring a psychic
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Speaker 1: into court, I would be laughed down the courthouse hallway
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Speaker 1: right out the front door. And I could be looking
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Speaker 1: for a job I don't know, uh, door to door
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Speaker 1: back and cleaner salesperson. I guess I don't know what
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Speaker 1: I would be doing with that law degree, because there
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Speaker 1: would be enough skeptics too ruin a verdict and I
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Speaker 1: could never risk that. Yeah, Nancy, I'm a I'm a
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Speaker 1: forensic scientist, and I concur with uh with much of
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Speaker 1: what you had said relative to being able to not
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Speaker 1: just qualify, but quantify those things that we see before
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Speaker 1: us in the field and in the laboratory, that sort
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Speaker 1: of thing. And it's very hard with that exactly. But
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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what changed my mind This is when
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Speaker 1: it all changed for me. I had been out of
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Speaker 1: the Court for Courtroom for a year or two and
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Speaker 1: I got um drafted by the Larry King staff and
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Speaker 1: to be not just a guest, but to be Larry's
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Speaker 1: regular guest host for about five years. And it was
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Speaker 1: an honor and a privilege to do that. And I
3:18
Speaker 1: remember one time Larry had to go somewhere. He was
3:22
Speaker 1: out in California and I was in New York. He
3:24
Speaker 1: had to go somewhere out of town. He couldn't tape
3:27
Speaker 1: that day, he couldn't go live. We went live that
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Speaker 1: night on Psychic Detectives, and I gotta tell you, I'm like, oh, okay, whatever,
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Speaker 1: I'll do it, I'll do it. So I started preparing
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Speaker 1: for the show. You know, I would do hours and
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Speaker 1: hours of preparation and listen to this Joe Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: Mr nonbeliever. I started reading about a Burbank woman who
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Speaker 1: had never had a psychic vision in her life, and
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Speaker 1: she allegedly has a psychic vision. And I've putting that
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Speaker 1: in quoties that leads detectives to the body of a
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Speaker 1: murder victim. Now this is what went down. This woman
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Speaker 1: Etta Louise Smith out of the Blue, says that she
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Speaker 1: had a vision about a body out in the middle
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Speaker 1: of like a canyon rural area, and I think, as
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Speaker 1: I recall it, that she saw white Okay today. She
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Speaker 1: she she keeps having the vision and it's so overwhelming.
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Speaker 1: She gets members of her family to go with her
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Speaker 1: and they go driving around Joe Scott. They find the
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Speaker 1: body of a beautiful young nurse. It was two days
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Speaker 1: after the nurse is very highly publicized disappearance. As I
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Speaker 1: recall it, the nurse us was coming home from work
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Speaker 1: one evening. You know, they have crazy shifts at a hospital.
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Speaker 1: She's at a red light and a bunch of guys
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Speaker 1: that she didn't know drove up beside her and they
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Speaker 1: kidnapped her and ended up beating her and dumping her
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Speaker 1: body in a rural area above lake View Terraces okay Um.
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Speaker 1: About forty five minutes after she finds the body with
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Speaker 1: her family members, they called police and the police are
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Speaker 1: there now. She is there with two of her children
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Speaker 1: and a niece and they find the body and they
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Speaker 1: leave police to the location in Lopez Canyon out in
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Speaker 1: the middle of a canyon, Jobe Scott. She finds a body. Well,
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Speaker 1: they the police get there and guess what they do?
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Speaker 1: They arrest her. After hours and hours of interrogation, they
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Speaker 1: arrest at a Smith Nancy. Let's listen to what Eda
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Speaker 1: Smith told Oprah Winfrey about how she followed her psychic
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Speaker 1: instincts and got arrested for it. Well, what really brought
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Speaker 1: it about was I was listening to a news broadcast
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Speaker 1: on a radio, and uh, the night before a girlfriend
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Speaker 1: had called me on the phone and asked me if
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Speaker 1: I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped,
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Speaker 1: and you felt what? Um, Well, what really brought it
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Speaker 1: about was I was listening to a news broadcast on
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Speaker 1: a radio, and uh. The night before, a girlfriend had
6:35
Speaker 1: called me on the phone and asked me if I
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Speaker 1: had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped and
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Speaker 1: was missing in our area, and I said no, I
6:42
Speaker 1: hadn't heard about it. So that day at work. The
6:45
Speaker 1: following day, at work, I listened to the radio and
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Speaker 1: they said that they had found the ladies vehicle on
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Speaker 1: a dead industreet and that they were making a house
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Speaker 1: to house search for her. And as soon as they
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Speaker 1: said house to house search, it was as if I
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Speaker 1: heard someone speaking to me, says she's not in a house.
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Speaker 1: And as soon as that thought registered, I saw exactly
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Speaker 1: where she was. It was like there was a picture
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Speaker 1: in front of me. Who I I didn't know the
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Speaker 1: name of the street, but I knew the area, I
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Speaker 1: knew how to get there, and I just I just knew.
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Speaker 1: So what did you do? Tell called police? Well, this
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Speaker 1: was about three o'clock in the afternoon. I was at work.
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Speaker 1: I'd get off work at three thirty and I'm arguing
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Speaker 1: with myself all the way home because when I get
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Speaker 1: to a certain intersection, I either turn right to go
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Speaker 1: home or I can turn left and I'll be right
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Speaker 1: in front of the police department. So I'm saying I
7:36
Speaker 1: should stop, and I'm saying now I should go home. Well,
7:40
Speaker 1: when I got to that intersection, I said, let him
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Speaker 1: think I'm nuts. I have to stop. And it's exactly
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Speaker 1: what I did. I talked to a homicide investigator, told
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Speaker 1: him exactly the area. I said, I I knew that
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Speaker 1: it's on the right hand side going up this canyon road,
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Speaker 1: and that there was a dirt path going towards uh
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Speaker 1: this person and with the heel behind her. He said
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Speaker 1: they had not checked that area, but that they would,
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Speaker 1: and I said, well, you know, I have a feeling
8:14
Speaker 1: I will also. Inside I wanted to be wrong, but
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Speaker 1: I also felt that if I didn't check, I'd never
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Speaker 1: know the truth. I'd never know if they checked, I'd
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Speaker 1: never know for sure whether I was right or wrong.
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Speaker 1: And I wanted to be wrong. I was hoping I
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Speaker 1: was really wrong. So you went there yourself, or you
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Speaker 1: went there with them? No, I went by. I didn't
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Speaker 1: go with them. I went home. I told my children
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Speaker 1: why I was late coming home, and they wanted to
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Speaker 1: go with me. I told him I was going. And
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Speaker 1: I feel bad about that now because at the time
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Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking properly. I wouldn't have taken the children
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Speaker 1: out to look for someone. But as he was saying,
9:04
Speaker 1: when you get in, because how how old were your children? Nine? Ten? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: I took two children with me, plus a niece who
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Speaker 1: was twenty one at the time. And you found the
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Speaker 1: body ultimately, yeah, yeah, you found the body. And and
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Speaker 1: and you were saying what Charles was saying that what
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Speaker 1: when you get close? Because I knew when we got
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Speaker 1: in the canyon, I could I could feel um, I
9:33
Speaker 1: could feel the terror. I could feel vibrations of something
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Speaker 1: that wasn't normal. I felt scared myself, you know, I
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Speaker 1: could feel it just like he since Jennifer, since her.
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Speaker 1: You said you felt her. That is amazing, That is amazing.
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Speaker 1: Police later arrested you because well, they said I knew
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Speaker 1: too much about it not to have been involved, because
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Speaker 1: I had this rived in detail where she was up
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Speaker 1: this canyon road on the side, on the right side,
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Speaker 1: with a dirt path going to her and I held
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Speaker 1: behind her. I said I had to have been there
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Speaker 1: to have known that. So long story short, Joe Scott.
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Speaker 1: She didn't take kindly, as you can imagine, getting arrested.
10:19
Speaker 1: After hours and hours of interrogation, she sued l A
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Speaker 1: p D. And she got a huge settlement from l
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Speaker 1: A p D. Now, when I read this story, and
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Speaker 1: I read several more like it, and I did the
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Speaker 1: Larry King show that night, and I was questioning the
10:42
Speaker 1: cops that were on the case, cops Joe Scott, police officers,
10:47
Speaker 1: and they're like, we don't understand it, but it happened
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Speaker 1: in Joe Scott. We did several shows like that, and
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Speaker 1: we would have three or four cases on each show.
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Speaker 1: And I got the opportunity to talk to the sidekicks,
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Speaker 1: which I had never done before, to question the police officers,
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Speaker 1: some of the victims families, and I walked away going, Okay,
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Speaker 1: this does not make sense in my head, but it happened.
11:16
Speaker 1: I don't It's just like you know, the telephone and
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Speaker 1: the TV and the radio and the cell phone. I
11:22
Speaker 1: don't know how it happens, but I know that it
11:25
Speaker 1: does happen. I know when I flicked the light switch,
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Speaker 1: light comes on. I don't have to think about, Wow,
11:30
Speaker 1: how did we harness electricity? How do we get it
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Speaker 1: into the room without burning the house down? I don't
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Speaker 1: think about that, but I know that it happens. Joe
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Speaker 1: Scott and this happened. I think that for us, you know,
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Speaker 1: we're for us in investigations, were so pragmatic about everything,
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Speaker 1: and and we spend we spend so much of our
11:51
Speaker 1: time trying to cut through what is fact and what
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Speaker 1: is fiction. We were lied to a lot, I think
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Speaker 1: in our field, UH trying to get to the truth.
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Speaker 1: And it's we're biased in that sense in that we
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Speaker 1: assume many times that most of the people that we're
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Speaker 1: talking to are trying to deceive us. In some well,
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Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, and that may be true,
12:17
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that's not true. Your point. What
12:19
Speaker 1: I'm saying is if I can't understand it, if it's
12:22
Speaker 1: not two plus two equals four, I'm not putting in
12:24
Speaker 1: front of a jury, bam. End of story. If I
12:29
Speaker 1: can't prove it at a crime lab, or I can't
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Speaker 1: see it here it tasted, touch it, or smell it,
12:34
Speaker 1: it's not my world until I spoke to Edda. With
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Speaker 1: me right now, three of the most well known psychics
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Speaker 1: literally in the world, Noreen Ranair, Gail st John, Alison
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Speaker 1: du Bois. First to you, Alison du Bois, so great, ladies,
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Speaker 1: to have all of you. Alison, tell me how you
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Speaker 1: became a psychic. When did you first have any psychic
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Speaker 1: vision or experience? Um? I it started when I was
13:10
Speaker 1: really little. I mean I was six years old and
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Speaker 1: I went to the first funeral I ever attended, and
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Speaker 1: it was my great grandfather's. And I came home from
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Speaker 1: his funeral and my mom tucked me into bed, and
13:21
Speaker 1: I looked at the foot of my bed and he
13:23
Speaker 1: was standing there, and he he actually looked like he
13:26
Speaker 1: had no lines on his face, and he looked happy,
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Speaker 1: and he said, tell your mom, I'm not in pain
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Speaker 1: anymore and I'm still with her because he had died
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Speaker 1: of intestinal cancer or very painful death. So I got
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Speaker 1: out of bed and I told my mom, Grandpa's in
13:38
Speaker 1: my room and he says, to tell you he's not
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Speaker 1: in pain anymore and he's still with you, and um,
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Speaker 1: she told me to go back to bed. So it
13:44
Speaker 1: was the seventies. They didn't know what to do with
13:46
Speaker 1: kids like me at the time, so that was my
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Speaker 1: first experience. You know, I'm I'm looking at a photo
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Speaker 1: of you right now, Alison du Bois, Alison Dubois, do
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Speaker 1: you b brother? Oh? I S dot com? And I
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Speaker 1: already know you, but I'm just looking at you. And um.
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Speaker 1: When people think of mediums or psychics, they think of
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Speaker 1: some crack pot uh dressed and I guess a gypsy
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Speaker 1: outfit over a fake crystal ball in a dark room. Okay,
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Speaker 1: that's that's what they think of. It couldn't if you
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Speaker 1: guys look up these three ladies, Noreen, Gail and Alison.
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Speaker 1: They're beautiful and there I guess I only and I
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Speaker 1: don't mean this as an insult. They're normal. They're regular
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Speaker 1: people like you and me that have had an event
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Speaker 1: in their lives that took them down the road of
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Speaker 1: psychic medium. So tell me when your next vision was
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Speaker 1: or your next I don't know if I call it
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Speaker 1: a vision or experience. Allison. You know, I had experiences
14:47
Speaker 1: through my whole childhood. I guess when I was a teenager,
14:50
Speaker 1: when you get really turned up because of the hormones
14:53
Speaker 1: and all um, I moved my bed from against the
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Speaker 1: south wall over to the east wall. And my friend Barbara,
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Speaker 1: who was ending the night that night, was like, what
15:02
Speaker 1: did you do that for? And I said, you know
15:04
Speaker 1: voice that I've heard my whole life told me to
15:06
Speaker 1: move the bed, and I said, so I moved the
15:09
Speaker 1: bed because it has already saved my life once before,
15:12
Speaker 1: when I was eleven and um, that night a truck
15:15
Speaker 1: drift through my bedroom wall and if I hadn't moved
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Speaker 1: the bed, Barber and I would have been under the truck.
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Speaker 1: So my friends always just chalked it up so well,
15:23
Speaker 1: that's just Allison, you know. So I thought everybody could
15:27
Speaker 1: do what I did. They just didn't talk about it,
15:29
Speaker 1: like wink wink, not not. But it wasn't until I
15:33
Speaker 1: was in turning a homicide to be a prosecutor. That
15:37
Speaker 1: I start, I realized that other people didn't necessarily see
15:40
Speaker 1: her hear what I was seeing and hearing, and that
15:42
Speaker 1: was news to me. Um Alison Jackie Howard my buddy
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Speaker 1: here in the studio. It's Alands counterpart. We're both holding
15:50
Speaker 1: up her arms to compare goose bumps. Also with me
15:55
Speaker 1: in addition to Alison du Bois at Allison Dubois dot com,
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Speaker 1: Arene Ranier and Gail Saint John Norraine. If it's not
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Speaker 1: too intrusive again, ladies, thank you to all three of
16:08
Speaker 1: you being with dust Marine. When was your first I
16:12
Speaker 1: don't know what else to call it but psychic experience.
16:15
Speaker 1: I was all grown up and I was pretty much
16:17
Speaker 1: a skeptic. I thought all psychics told clients table could
16:20
Speaker 1: marry a told ark handsome man, and they stole chickens
16:24
Speaker 1: or something of the sort. So I was very surprised
16:26
Speaker 1: when I started meditating. Uh. I didn't believe in psychic phenomena,
16:31
Speaker 1: and I went almost immediately into a trance and gave
16:34
Speaker 1: a Winnebagel Indian who was at the table with my girlfriend,
16:38
Speaker 1: who was also skeptic. The next nun. Uh information, which
16:43
Speaker 1: hold on, I've got two skeptics, and one is the
16:45
Speaker 1: next nun. You know. That just reminds me. Let me
16:48
Speaker 1: tell you, Norain. When I was a FED before I
16:50
Speaker 1: became a felony prosecutor, I was prosecuting uh some people
16:55
Speaker 1: with the Federal Trade Commission in the Consumer Protection and
16:57
Speaker 1: I Trust division. And it was a weight loss product,
17:01
Speaker 1: which I knew from examining and speaking to scientists, had
17:04
Speaker 1: nothing in it at all that would be at weight loss.
17:08
Speaker 1: It's something called gore g u a R. I've never
17:11
Speaker 1: had a chance to work that into a conversation since
17:13
Speaker 1: that time, but are kind of expands in your stomach
17:17
Speaker 1: and makes you feel full for a minute and then
17:19
Speaker 1: basically no, nothing to make you lose weight. Then I
17:24
Speaker 1: started sifting through all the letters of complaints and I
17:27
Speaker 1: found one letter from a nun that swore she lost
17:31
Speaker 1: forty pounds using whatever it was. I don't even remember
17:34
Speaker 1: the name of it. And I took it into my
17:36
Speaker 1: boss's off As I was holding I'm like, we're screwed
17:40
Speaker 1: because this nune says this worked and she used it
17:44
Speaker 1: for six months. And let me tell you something. You
17:46
Speaker 1: put this Nune up on that on that witness stand.
17:49
Speaker 1: It's over. Okay, we gotta rethink this whole thing. You're
17:53
Speaker 1: telling me. You're sitting there with an X nun and
17:55
Speaker 1: what happened. Well, she was a disbeliever and everything too.
17:59
Speaker 1: So we got we uh after Joe, after the episode,
18:02
Speaker 1: we got rid of Joanne And did you believe this stuff?
18:04
Speaker 1: I said, no, she must have done something to us.
18:06
Speaker 1: So we decided to meet that night. Her husband worked late.
18:10
Speaker 1: She was out of the convent now like ten years
18:13
Speaker 1: and had been in the comment for about ten years,
18:15
Speaker 1: and we started doing what the books we're talking about.
18:17
Speaker 1: We would practice. Uh. So that's how it began. And
18:20
Speaker 1: then at work I couldn't think. Uh. I just wanted
18:24
Speaker 1: to see if it worked. And I was in PR
18:25
Speaker 1: and advertising, so I could bring clients too high at
18:28
Speaker 1: hotel and show them in case they wanted to rent
18:30
Speaker 1: a lecture hall or something, and I would rush them
18:33
Speaker 1: to lunch and say, look, I really don't believe in this,
18:35
Speaker 1: but I'm read if you hold a person's rings or
18:38
Speaker 1: watch and you put it to your forehead, you can,
18:40
Speaker 1: And so I'd be grabbing their watch to ring off
18:42
Speaker 1: to practice on people. I didn't know, and uh, it
18:46
Speaker 1: was working. Of course I got fired, I think not
18:48
Speaker 1: a very good psyche got three months later. Uh, and
18:51
Speaker 1: so that's when I went full time, dressed like a
18:53
Speaker 1: gypsy and and started in the nightclub. I was still
18:56
Speaker 1: trying to prove, uh that this really was real. And
18:59
Speaker 1: then science got involved Duke University, a lot of testing
19:03
Speaker 1: at Rhyan Research, and I still love testing my mind
19:06
Speaker 1: of what it can do. And I do still a
19:09
Speaker 1: lot of work and I'm working a lot now in
19:11
Speaker 1: South Africa. Okay, I'm just taking all of this in.
19:17
Speaker 1: Gil St John also with me, in addition to Alison
19:19
Speaker 1: Dubois and Mareene were near gil St. John. You and
19:23
Speaker 1: I've spoken many many times, although guys on professional level,
19:27
Speaker 1: I have not consulted with girl St John. Okay, I'm
19:31
Speaker 1: still clinging to the fact that this may not exist,
19:35
Speaker 1: even though I know that it has actually happened. Gil
19:42
Speaker 1: St John. I want to hear your first so called
19:46
Speaker 1: I don't know what else to call it, unless you, ladies,
19:48
Speaker 1: can enlighten me psychic experience. Um well, I vividly remember
19:54
Speaker 1: I was about four years old. Um, my mother was
20:00
Speaker 1: outside talking to the neighbor. Even we're talking about the
20:04
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, so you can kind of picture how that is.
20:08
Speaker 1: I'm two houses down playing with the other little girl.
20:13
Speaker 1: We're used to having a great time, like you know,
20:16
Speaker 1: real little kids are doing and and watching our mom's talk.
20:20
Speaker 1: And and I look up at her house and it
20:24
Speaker 1: was on fire. And I'm at an age where, you know,
20:30
Speaker 1: comprehension isn't the greatest. But I so I looked down.
20:33
Speaker 1: I look up again, and the house is on fire.
20:36
Speaker 1: Now at this point, I'm scared. I'm running home. If
20:40
Speaker 1: I'm running back, you know, just quickly, I glanced again.
20:42
Speaker 1: The house is not on fire, and I'm running up
20:44
Speaker 1: to my mom and I'm yelling, mom, Mom, Mom, and
20:47
Speaker 1: she's trying to, you know, keep me quiet for a minute.
20:50
Speaker 1: And she shuffled me into the house. I think she
20:54
Speaker 1: said something neighbor. I think she got hurt. And we
20:57
Speaker 1: get into the house and she said, what what what
21:00
Speaker 1: are you hiring about? Fire? I said, I saw the
21:03
Speaker 1: house on fire. I saw the neighbor's house on fire.
21:06
Speaker 1: She said, it's not on fire, and I insisted, I said,
21:10
Speaker 1: I saw it, but I know it's gone now. She said,
21:14
Speaker 1: you like, what exactly did you see? And I said,
21:16
Speaker 1: it was burning, there was smoke, I saw people there,
21:21
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21:24
Speaker 1: she said, you know you need to not say these things.
21:28
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21:32
Speaker 1: these things. And my grandmother came out of the other room.
21:35
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21:37
Speaker 1: been in our family. We don't you don't say these things.
21:40
Speaker 1: I was so confused at that point I let it go.
21:44
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21:50
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21:53
Speaker 1: a young age, of like what if, what if they?
21:56
Speaker 1: What if somebody would have and and thank goodness, nobody
21:59
Speaker 1: got hirt hurt in the fire and they all got out,
22:02
Speaker 1: But what if what if somebody had gotten hurt? And
22:06
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22:09
Speaker 1: have warned them. And I lived with a guilt for
22:12
Speaker 1: quite some time and trying to deal with visibility and
22:18
Speaker 1: where's that line with me? Naren Ranier, Gil Saint John
22:24
Speaker 1: Alison Dubois, Joseph's Got Morgan death investigator and professor of
22:29
Speaker 1: forensics at Jacksonville State University. My buddy Alan Deep joining
22:34
Speaker 1: me from l A and Jackie Howard here in the studio.
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24:26
Speaker 1: Today we are speaking with three renowned so called psychic detectives,
24:33
Speaker 1: Noreen Ranier, Gail say John Allison at Dubois with me,
24:37
Speaker 1: death investigator Joe Scott Morgan, Alan Duke and Jackie Howard.
24:40
Speaker 1: I want to go to Noreene Ranier. Noreen, do do
24:45
Speaker 1: you recall a particular case that you worked on. This
24:50
Speaker 1: case dealt with a victim that is last named Sullivan
24:56
Speaker 1: that was ultimately discovered dead. Um It was a missing
25:02
Speaker 1: person case and an agent with the Montana Department of Justice,
25:08
Speaker 1: the d o J contacted you in way back after
25:13
Speaker 1: watching you on television, he was skeptical. He says, he
25:17
Speaker 1: met you, flew to Florida to meet you to see
25:20
Speaker 1: if you were the real deal. He says he gave
25:24
Speaker 1: you no information about the unsolved case and wanted to
25:28
Speaker 1: find out if you could possibly help find a Montana
25:32
Speaker 1: State auditor Walter Sullivan. Noreene, do you recall the Sullivan
25:38
Speaker 1: case out of Montana? Oh, yes, it is what happened.
25:45
Speaker 1: I got a phone call from them. They had detective
25:49
Speaker 1: uber Ubi. I had seen me on television, and I
25:52
Speaker 1: want to know how I worked, UH, And I po
25:54
Speaker 1: him that used the police because I worked all of
25:56
Speaker 1: the United States. Would send me something off the victim
25:59
Speaker 1: that wouldn't interrupt their crime, like a shoe or belt
26:02
Speaker 1: buckle or uh something, And they didn't want to send
26:06
Speaker 1: the evidence they had, so they flew out. And usually
26:10
Speaker 1: I do things over the phone, so I was surprised
26:13
Speaker 1: to see them with the camera, UH, and they videotaped
26:16
Speaker 1: uh the session and they would give me no feedback
26:20
Speaker 1: usually on the phone. I just asked if it's a
26:23
Speaker 1: homicide or a missing person case. I don't ask for
26:25
Speaker 1: their name because the skeptics always say that we look
26:28
Speaker 1: it up and we know everything about the person. So
26:30
Speaker 1: I never know the name of the victim until I
26:33
Speaker 1: start the case. So they told me they named the victim,
26:35
Speaker 1: and I described him to make sure I was tuned in.
26:38
Speaker 1: Uh I forgot. I think I was holding something of
26:40
Speaker 1: the victims. UH did a bunch on him. And they
26:43
Speaker 1: were very bad at giving me feedback. And usually I
26:46
Speaker 1: just like to know if I'm in the right zone. Uh,
26:49
Speaker 1: you know, did he have you know the ball here? However,
26:51
Speaker 1: I described him, but they have no feedback whatsoever. And
26:54
Speaker 1: then they gave me U the projectile the bullets that
26:58
Speaker 1: uh he had been shot with, and then I got
27:01
Speaker 1: all sorts of new pictures. I saw three men, uh
27:05
Speaker 1: they and I remember my head hurting terribly. I was
27:08
Speaker 1: outside of a blue building walking towards it when these
27:11
Speaker 1: men jumped me and they started hitting me, and the
27:14
Speaker 1: one in the head hurt me the most. Uh described.
27:19
Speaker 1: There was two Mexicans and then the third man. We
27:21
Speaker 1: just have an artist. I always worked with an artist
27:23
Speaker 1: when we have homicide cases, so it helps the police
27:27
Speaker 1: with the elimination of suspects. For the artist was drawing
27:30
Speaker 1: the faces. I was seen off but I remember my
27:34
Speaker 1: head hurting so badly. Even after I came out of
27:37
Speaker 1: my tramps, I was still hurting. Uh. After describing the
27:41
Speaker 1: three men, the two Mexicans and the one other older man, Uh,
27:46
Speaker 1: they just started asking me questions, and then I would
27:49
Speaker 1: respond to the questions how he was killed? Uh, you
27:52
Speaker 1: know why I was killed. I saw a lot of
27:53
Speaker 1: numbers around uh the victim, and he turned out that
27:59
Speaker 1: he was into finance a great deal. Uh. I don't
28:02
Speaker 1: remember everything, but they were just very pleased with what
28:06
Speaker 1: I gave them. Uh. I forgot what else they wanted
28:09
Speaker 1: to know. Oh, I had to draw things for them.
28:11
Speaker 1: They they want to know what the gun looked like,
28:13
Speaker 1: and I was trying to tell them that you had
28:15
Speaker 1: to use two hands on it, and they still couldn't understand.
28:18
Speaker 1: So I got a piece of paper and a pen
28:20
Speaker 1: and drew it. And it turned out it was like
28:22
Speaker 1: a K nine. I still don't know guns, but it
28:25
Speaker 1: drew it just like it it was. Uh. So they
28:28
Speaker 1: were very happy with all the evidence. I mean, I
28:31
Speaker 1: did a lot more, but I can't remember everything, and
28:34
Speaker 1: I don't feel that I ever solved crimes. I think
28:38
Speaker 1: that I'm like, uh giving them more I'm a tool
28:42
Speaker 1: and if they know how to use me, right, and
28:43
Speaker 1: a lot of police don't. Uh, if they know how
28:46
Speaker 1: to use me, and I try to write how how
28:49
Speaker 1: best I work, I'm just a tool for them to
28:51
Speaker 1: get more evidence, and that's what they bring to court. Wow.
28:57
Speaker 1: Back to our skeptic, Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator and
29:02
Speaker 1: professor forensics at Jacksonville State University. Okay, Joe Scott, did
29:07
Speaker 1: you hear that? Oh yeah, I heard it. Nancy heard
29:10
Speaker 1: it loud and clear, and uh, for all I know,
29:12
Speaker 1: it could just be a random shot in the dark. Uh.
29:15
Speaker 1: So you're gonna have to prove it to me. And
29:18
Speaker 1: I'm not buying it. I'm not. There's too much. There's
29:20
Speaker 1: too much at risk here. There's too much, Joe Scott,
29:24
Speaker 1: hold on, you know what. That's what they said the
29:26
Speaker 1: first time somebody brought up the idea of fingerprints. I'll
29:28
Speaker 1: look to chew on that for a few moments. Alison
29:31
Speaker 1: Dubois gil st John Noreen Nier with us. Alison Dubois,
29:36
Speaker 1: you also have worked on particular criminal cases. Let's talk
29:43
Speaker 1: about Jackie Hartman. And remember everybody, Alison Dubois actually worked
29:49
Speaker 1: at the Mirracopa County District Attorney's Office in Arizona. In fact,
29:54
Speaker 1: one of her task was organizing crime scene photos. UM
29:59
Speaker 1: I wanted to to you about a particular case, Jackie Hartman,
30:03
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old. What do you recall about that case,
30:08
Speaker 1: Alison du Bois, Well, I was taken to the last
30:13
Speaker 1: place she was seeing, which was kind of like a
30:15
Speaker 1: gas station convenience store, and the first thing that I
30:18
Speaker 1: picked up was that she went willingly. So then the
30:23
Speaker 1: next piece of information that I wrote down was date
30:25
Speaker 1: rate gone wrong. She'd been missing about two weeks. At
30:28
Speaker 1: this point, I said, you can you can hear helicopters
30:32
Speaker 1: overhead where her body is, so they're looking in the
30:34
Speaker 1: right area. UM, I said, there's a small barbecue nearby
30:39
Speaker 1: where you have like a cook out. Her body was
30:41
Speaker 1: rolled down a hill outside the city limits. I said
30:44
Speaker 1: the cell phone tower would be how they find her
30:47
Speaker 1: and I and then I let them know that they
30:49
Speaker 1: would find her body in two weeks, which they did
30:51
Speaker 1: find her body in exactly two weeks. Alison du Bois
30:55
Speaker 1: is referring to the case of Jackie Hartman and nineteen
31:00
Speaker 1: year old nursing student. Jackie's body was found in two
31:06
Speaker 1: thousand seven, within hours of the time du Bois said
31:12
Speaker 1: it would be found. Jackie Hartman's date on the night
31:17
Speaker 1: of her disappearance was ultimately convicted of killing the young girl,
31:24
Speaker 1: Jackie Hartman, nineteen year old nursing student. Now very interesting
31:31
Speaker 1: that she tells police that this was that the victim,
31:35
Speaker 1: Jackie went with her killer willingly that it was a
31:39
Speaker 1: date rape to find the victim through cell phone records,
31:45
Speaker 1: specifically that she would be found in two weeks. She
31:49
Speaker 1: was found thirteen days and twenty something hours from the
31:55
Speaker 1: day the moment that Allison spoke with police. I mean,
32:01
Speaker 1: it just goes on and on and on. Now it's
32:07
Speaker 1: what do you have to say to your critics, Alison? Um,
32:13
Speaker 1: you know, I half of my friends are cops and
32:16
Speaker 1: the county attorneys prosecutors. So, um, I'm critical of myself.
32:21
Speaker 1: So I know what information they need that can actually
32:24
Speaker 1: be helpful and what's just fluff. You know that some
32:28
Speaker 1: psychics give and they get pulled into the emotional state
32:31
Speaker 1: of the victim. I try to go through the killer
32:33
Speaker 1: myself instead of the victim. But for people who don't
32:38
Speaker 1: believe it's not it really doesn't change my life if
32:41
Speaker 1: they don't believe, you know, I mean, at the end
32:43
Speaker 1: of the day, we all die, and everybody finds out
32:46
Speaker 1: that there's life after death and that you know, what
32:48
Speaker 1: we're doing to help to help the police when they
32:51
Speaker 1: hit a wall. We're just a last resort. We don't
32:54
Speaker 1: want to be their first choice of weapon. It's a
32:58
Speaker 1: lot of work for us, and it takes in a
33:00
Speaker 1: otional toll on us. I've never charged to work a
33:03
Speaker 1: case because I've been so blessed in life. It's just
33:05
Speaker 1: kind of how I've given back. But that's just personally
33:08
Speaker 1: how I how I've approached it. So, you know, as
33:11
Speaker 1: far as working cases, there was no monetary gain. And
33:14
Speaker 1: I guess one could say, well, you got a television
33:17
Speaker 1: show about it about you because of it and you
33:20
Speaker 1: did well, and I would argue that, well, then you're
33:23
Speaker 1: just proving that I'm a psychic, because then I knew
33:25
Speaker 1: I was going to become rich off of working cases,
33:29
Speaker 1: you know. So they can't have it both ways, and
33:31
Speaker 1: usually skeptics like to argue it so that no matter
33:35
Speaker 1: what we say or what we do, it's never going
33:37
Speaker 1: to be enough evidence or or impressive enough. And so
33:41
Speaker 1: for those people. I don't really, I don't bother. You know.
33:45
Speaker 1: Many people say that Murder made Alison Dubois famous. Their
33:48
Speaker 1: well known series Medium with story Patricia Arquette, playing a
33:54
Speaker 1: fictional du Bois Well, Patricia Arkett solved a murder a
33:58
Speaker 1: week for seven seasons. Okay, I don't think that your
34:02
Speaker 1: your work is any of your work is uh that regular? Uh?
34:06
Speaker 1: And I don't. I don't know if you ever saw
34:08
Speaker 1: a dime off that. Because TV series can, people can
34:13
Speaker 1: use your likeness or you're the idea of you. Believe me,
34:17
Speaker 1: I know, and uh, I never know about it until
34:21
Speaker 1: tis somebody tells me about it that they've seen it
34:23
Speaker 1: on TV. Nancy, I've got a clip I can play
34:26
Speaker 1: from the television show The Medium. In fact, this is
34:29
Speaker 1: from the premier episode. We just got a call. Apparently
34:33
Speaker 1: he's struck again. He takes their hearts, carves it right
34:37
Speaker 1: out of their chest. There's never anything to do with six.
34:42
Speaker 1: It's biblical. All I know is that they called an
34:45
Speaker 1: ambulance from Mr Push sometime after three this morning. You
34:48
Speaker 1: came to visit me in my bedroom. It was around
34:51
Speaker 1: three thirty in the morning. I thought that I was
34:52
Speaker 1: dreaming they're related. You must have died for a minute
34:57
Speaker 1: or two. The murders of victims, the ones that chooses
35:02
Speaker 1: it's not random. I'm going now to gil St John.
35:06
Speaker 1: Gil St John a renowned psychic as well, along with
35:10
Speaker 1: Narine Ranair and Alice and Duba. Hold on, Joe Scott Morgan,
35:14
Speaker 1: you're chopping at the bit all right way in, Joe Scott,
35:18
Speaker 1: try not to be so negative because I'm getting some
35:20
Speaker 1: kind of a I'm getting a vibration I think from you.
35:23
Speaker 1: It's not a good one. Oh wow, are you Are
35:26
Speaker 1: you having a vision right now? Nancy? Is that? Is
35:28
Speaker 1: that what's going on? My vibes are traveling your way? Yeah?
35:32
Speaker 1: I got I gotta tell you. You know you mentioned
35:34
Speaker 1: fingerprints a moment ago. Uh as somebody said, hey, you know,
35:38
Speaker 1: you know we we can't use these. You're right, you
35:40
Speaker 1: can't use them because it can't be quantified and it
35:44
Speaker 1: can't be proved. You have to be able to replicate
35:46
Speaker 1: this over and over and over using the same test.
35:50
Speaker 1: And that's how we validate things in forensic science and
35:52
Speaker 1: in science in general. You know that as a former prosecutor,
35:56
Speaker 1: As a former prosecutor, I know what I need to
35:59
Speaker 1: do to prove a case. But my mind is open.
36:03
Speaker 1: I firmly believe that there is a lot more in
36:07
Speaker 1: the world of criminal investigation than I know, A lot
36:10
Speaker 1: more in the world than I know. In fact, what
36:14
Speaker 1: I don't know could fill up a million libraries compared
36:16
Speaker 1: to what I do know about this world. I'm pretty sure.
36:21
Speaker 1: Now I want to speak with gil St John, who
36:24
Speaker 1: is a renowned psychic, and she was actually drawn to
36:28
Speaker 1: the spot where little Kelly Anthony's body was found months
36:33
Speaker 1: before the body was found, and even has video to
36:37
Speaker 1: prove it. She came forward to say she was not
36:39
Speaker 1: surprised Kelly was found in the woods off Suburban Drive,
36:43
Speaker 1: that she had been in that area and drawn to
36:45
Speaker 1: that area months before. Um gil St John and her
36:51
Speaker 1: search team is so called the body hunters, went to
36:55
Speaker 1: Orlando to search for Kelly, and on the very first
36:57
Speaker 1: day out of nowhere, she LAIDs them on a blind
37:02
Speaker 1: drive to this spot. Okay, gil St John, can you
37:09
Speaker 1: even explain what's going on in your mind when you
37:13
Speaker 1: have this sort of experience? You know, I'm not sure
37:17
Speaker 1: that there's anything in the sense that you could say
37:20
Speaker 1: is is totally going on, except for it's almost you're
37:24
Speaker 1: sort of trance like semi trance. You're hearing, you're feeling
37:31
Speaker 1: um things from the other side as well as you're Obviously,
37:34
Speaker 1: if you're driving, you have to be very conscious and
37:36
Speaker 1: aware of your driving. UM. But it's something I've always done,
37:40
Speaker 1: is that blind drive. I get to an area and
37:43
Speaker 1: I go to where the person was last seen, and
37:47
Speaker 1: then I pick up on what happened. How do I
37:52
Speaker 1: get to their body? And I just allow myself to
37:57
Speaker 1: drive where the feeling gets strong. If you've ever played
38:01
Speaker 1: that Hot and Cold game when you were a kid, Yes,
38:04
Speaker 1: that's what it feels like. I'm going left and left. Nope, Nope,
38:08
Speaker 1: not losing the feeling. Loving the feeling. Go to the
38:10
Speaker 1: other direction, yep, yep, it's getting stronger going this way,
38:13
Speaker 1: and you you follow. What can you tell me about
38:17
Speaker 1: Stephen Stephen Hoff was a person that they suspected he
38:26
Speaker 1: had left suicide and had left a note they had
38:32
Speaker 1: He had searchers out several times looking for him. UM.
38:36
Speaker 1: He'd been missing around eight weeks at the time that
38:42
Speaker 1: our team was called out. Now, this was a team case,
38:47
Speaker 1: so you have to tread lightly on this because you're
38:52
Speaker 1: going out as a canine handler called out by police.
38:59
Speaker 1: Sort of a conflict of interest with the two. They
39:03
Speaker 1: don't they're there, don't see the psychic, and they don't
39:06
Speaker 1: know that I'm psychic. They don't have any information this.
39:09
Speaker 1: They're calling us out to do a search. They don't
39:13
Speaker 1: even know if he's in this area, and it's a
39:15
Speaker 1: very large preserve area. And we get out there. On
39:21
Speaker 1: that case, I run my canine. I got some information
39:28
Speaker 1: off of my canine. If people don't understand, there's a
39:31
Speaker 1: lot to run a canine, you just don't turn your
39:32
Speaker 1: dog loose and go hey, yeah, um, you got to
39:35
Speaker 1: understand scent theory and how it all works. He gave
39:39
Speaker 1: me some signs in an area that I was told
39:42
Speaker 1: to go over into, and I had two other backup
39:46
Speaker 1: handlers with me, and uh, he kind of told me
39:51
Speaker 1: a story in what he was doing, but my feelings
39:56
Speaker 1: were over writing some of this. Now by this time,
40:01
Speaker 1: the park is getting very busy with people walking on trails.
40:05
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, okay, let's think about logics here. I'm gonna
40:08
Speaker 1: turn a canine loose. We've got people walking in in
40:12
Speaker 1: this area over here, and they're walking dogs. It's gonna
40:16
Speaker 1: be a problem. It's gonna be a problem. So what
40:20
Speaker 1: finally happened. I turned and looked at the two girls
40:24
Speaker 1: with me, and they sort of kind of knew that
40:26
Speaker 1: I did some psychic stuff. But listen, we're all about
40:29
Speaker 1: canines right there. You know that that's that's the bottom line.
40:33
Speaker 1: So and I said, I'm gonna put my dog up.
40:35
Speaker 1: And I said what I said, yea, I'm gonna put
40:38
Speaker 1: my dog off. I want to walk around on foot
40:40
Speaker 1: over here. Okay, So we looked put the canine up
40:44
Speaker 1: and walking around, and I knew, you know, I said,
40:50
Speaker 1: I'm gonna turn this on. This has gotta happen. I gotta,
40:54
Speaker 1: you know, nip this in the bud right now. We
40:56
Speaker 1: gotta find this guy. I just turned it on. I said,
41:00
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. You know, I'm not
41:01
Speaker 1: even gonna say anything to my my backup handlers. I
41:05
Speaker 1: just turned it on. I went with my feelings, began walking,
41:10
Speaker 1: going in different places, and they're running behind me, going, Gail,
41:13
Speaker 1: what's going on? What's going what are you doing? What?
41:16
Speaker 1: Slow down? I couldn't. I couldn't slow down by that point,
41:21
Speaker 1: it was so strong the pole. I just went and
41:24
Speaker 1: kept walking. I can't hold back what happened. I walked
41:29
Speaker 1: right up on his body, walked right up on him. Okay, guys, Narine,
41:36
Speaker 1: when there Gail Saint John Allison du Bois, Alison Dubois, Um,
41:43
Speaker 1: could you tell me? You teld me your first experience,
41:45
Speaker 1: but what was your most powerful psychic experience? Um? I
41:50
Speaker 1: heard a voice say, your dad's gonna die at sixty
41:53
Speaker 1: seven of a massive heart attack. So I sent my
41:57
Speaker 1: dad's all the heart specialists trying to intervene and save him.
42:03
Speaker 1: And he had been a professional ballroom dancer for fifty years.
42:07
Speaker 1: He was in good shape, and he died at sixties
42:10
Speaker 1: seven of a massive heart attack. And uh, I think
42:13
Speaker 1: that one was probably the most profound because it was
42:15
Speaker 1: my father. You're really hitting a nerve. Lost my dad
42:20
Speaker 1: two years ago, and I just miss him so much.
42:26
Speaker 1: It's just he was my my soul mate. I miss
42:31
Speaker 1: him so much, and I can only imagine what that
42:34
Speaker 1: must have been like, Narraine, Go go ahead, Allison, But
42:40
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say. I was just gonna say,
42:41
Speaker 1: it's an indescribable ache that never goes away, no matter
42:45
Speaker 1: how many years passed, even though you know they're there
42:48
Speaker 1: and you know that every day wake up a good
42:50
Speaker 1: day because you're a day closer to seeing them again.
42:52
Speaker 1: All of that aside, it's still aches. I'm sorry that
42:56
Speaker 1: you lost your dad. I am thanks. I still have
42:59
Speaker 1: my mom, and you know she's ninety pounds a tiger made.
43:05
Speaker 1: What was your most powerful psychic experience? Uh? Mine was,
43:11
Speaker 1: of course my police work. For the first five years,
43:14
Speaker 1: all I did was homicide because I'm really bad with
43:17
Speaker 1: left and right and I can get lost in a kmart,
43:20
Speaker 1: so I never tried to find people. I just told
43:24
Speaker 1: everybody I'm homicide. A little uh FBI agents life that
43:29
Speaker 1: knew about my work contact me, and her brother was
43:32
Speaker 1: missing in an airplane. UH. And at first to take
43:35
Speaker 1: morant to do it, I can't, saying no, I don't
43:37
Speaker 1: do that. And then finally she brought me some um
43:41
Speaker 1: stuff that he had touched, a wallet and a coin thing,
43:44
Speaker 1: and I did the case, and I gave launch stude
43:47
Speaker 1: and latitude UH and the initials of the cities UH.
43:51
Speaker 1: And they found in the plane that it hadn't it
43:54
Speaker 1: was in a plane, of course, and hadn't exploded. And
43:56
Speaker 1: I remember visually seeing somebody caring something in places under
44:01
Speaker 1: a tree uh, and then walking away. And then I
44:05
Speaker 1: opened my eyes and said, no, you just want him
44:07
Speaker 1: to be alive, but I'm not doing this anymore. And
44:09
Speaker 1: when they found the airplane, the it was they had
44:11
Speaker 1: this woman sitting under a tree like somebody had carried
44:14
Speaker 1: her there, and her brother had walked several yards away.
44:17
Speaker 1: But that was my most because I've never had been
44:19
Speaker 1: into missing people and it was a whole whole new
44:23
Speaker 1: and I'm really good at it now. Gil Saint John,
44:26
Speaker 1: you told me how you initially realized that you had
44:31
Speaker 1: this extrasensory perception. What was your most profound, your most powerful,
44:37
Speaker 1: I guess psychic experience or vision. I really got to say.
44:41
Speaker 1: It concerned my grandmother UM. She was living with us
44:47
Speaker 1: at the time and UM two days prior to her passing.
44:54
Speaker 1: UM I was told about it, and it was a
44:58
Speaker 1: semi dream state, but it was very conscious of what
45:01
Speaker 1: was going on. And UM, I think because at the
45:06
Speaker 1: time I was I was fourteen years old, I really
45:09
Speaker 1: fought it and it was painful and I and I
45:14
Speaker 1: didn't and I wanted to ignore it. And and two
45:17
Speaker 1: days later I held it and she passed away. And
45:24
Speaker 1: that very very powerful and painful and and so many
45:30
Speaker 1: things all at the same time with me, renowned psychics,
45:34
Speaker 1: so called psychic detectives, Mareena Ronair, Gail sat John, Alison
45:39
Speaker 1: du Bois, and skeptic Joseph Scott Morgan. Ladies, thank you
45:46
Speaker 1: for sharing with us. You know, Joe Scott, I guess
45:49
Speaker 1: you and I the two flat feet here will continue
45:53
Speaker 1: putting forward hard evidence, as we call it, but it's
45:59
Speaker 1: very hard to put onlinders and try to ignore the
46:04
Speaker 1: stories that have been factually corroborated from Alison du Bois,
46:10
Speaker 1: Gail st John, and Narene Na. Nancy Grace Crime Stories
46:16
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend. As Crime Stories with Nancy Grace begins,
46:23
Speaker 1: we would like to thank you for helping us grow
46:25
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47:14
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I'm Alan Duke, wishing you a happy and
47:17
Speaker 1: prosperous eighteen