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Patriots Catch-22 10/1: Bills Preview, Injury Updates, Key Matchups · Patriots Catch-22

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: This is the Patriots Catch 22 podcast with Evan Lazar
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: and Alex Barth. I'm Evan Lazar.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: I'm Evan Lazar.
• 0:09
  Speaker 3: I'm Evan Lazar. Hello, everybody.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Nailed it.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Joined, as always, by our star.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: That's a fit. That's a match.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: No risk it.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: No risk it.
• 0:16
  Speaker 4: 42.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Here is Evan Lazar.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And Alex Barth. I just think Christian Ellis continues to
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: be awesome, and I think it should be talked about more.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: As a blitzer, there was one play in particular, though.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: He's great as a blitzer. They threw a screen where
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: he was the only guy on that side of the field,
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: and he ended up avoiding the block and making the
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: tackle for just a two-yard gain. That play had a
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: long way to go if he doesn't make that tackle.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: and he somehow got off the block and made the
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: play as really the only guy within like 20 yards
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: of the screen. He's just been really good. we are
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: coming in hot this morning yep alex you you were
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: you were early today not even.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Early on tuesday not even on time.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: He was early so we've already been bickering with each
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: other for 45 minutes so uh mostly about the red
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: socks to be honest which uh you know disappointing loss
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: for them uh last night obviously and alex very upset
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: about that but this is not a red sock show
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: so we're gonna We're going to talk Patriots.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I could give you some good baseball X's and O's today.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Apparently. I mean, I just got lectured on pitching decisions
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: in a 9-0 game. Anyways, we're going to talk Patriots.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk Bills. And we're already fired up,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: so I can't wait to get to the Bills segment
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: of this portion of this show.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Well, here's what we're going to do. Since you just
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: don't understand my take on all this. Before I give
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: a take, because the last thing I want to do
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: is offend the Josh Allen industrial complex.
• 1:52
  Speaker 5: Good.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: So I am going to run my takes by you
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: before I give them.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: So that way we make sure it's a Josh Allen
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: approved show.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: All right. Uh, I want to, I have two opening takes. Well, well,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: two things I want to get to in the open,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I guess is a better way to put this. We
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: do have to talk a little bit about injuries. We
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: got the first injury report of the week yesterday. First
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: practice media access yesterday. I'll remind people that practice access
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: this time of year is like 10, 15 minutes.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: We got like 20 yesterday, which was long.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: We don't watch the whole practice like we do in
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: training camp.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Stretching and just kind of the individual drills.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Right. But we have a little bit of injury updates.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: And then I also have a take on the offense
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: that I want to start with. But quickly on the injuries,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: just get sort of this housekeeping stuff to the side.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: The three DNPs, and then we'll get to the quarterback,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Christian Gonzalez, Morgan Moses, Christian Barmore, a lot of shoulders,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: a lot of people with shoulders. So Gonzalez and Barmore
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: have the shoulder injuries that they suffered in the game
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: on Sunday in Jacksonville. Morgan Moses is playing through a
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: foot injury. Do you have any concerns about any of
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: those three guys playing in this game on Sunday? I
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: know it's early in the week relatively, but yeah, I mean,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: we know.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: We'll see. The fact Gonzalez finished the game, came right
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: back in and finished the game, I guess is encouraging.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: He's probably a player who can get a.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Feels like maintenance.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, veteran rest day. They've given Barmore some maintenance days
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: this year, but those have mostly been on Thursdays, so
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: that's a little different. And then Morgan Mose looked like
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: he was going through it last week.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: He was getting up slow a lot when they tried to,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I think, go into not necessarily hurry up and get
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: up to the line. He was sometimes, you know, one
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: of the last guys up there. So it'll be interesting
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: to see where he's at. We'll see today though. I mean,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: they've pretty much stuck to that rule. You know, some
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: guys have come back and practice on Friday. You don't
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: practice Wednesday and Thursday. You don't play.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: So today's really the big day for that group.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I've sort of, you know, off piggybacking off
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: of that. Wednesdays with Mike Rabel feel like if you
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: were dinged up in the game, you kind of get
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: a maintenance day on Wednesdays. That's how they've handled a
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: lot of these guys in this regime over the last
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: two years. So I'm never overly concerned about injuries like
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: this until they're not out there on Thursday. So unfortunately,
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: we're taping this before Thursday's practice, so we can't tell
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: you if they're going to be out there on Thursday
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: or not. But just as a rule of thumb, I
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: would say if they're back out there on Thursday, then
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Wednesday is kind of serving as a maintenance day, extra
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: rest day for some of the guys that got banged
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: up in the game that are maybe, you know, hurt,
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: but not injured, you know, or banged up, but don't
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: have like structural damage to anything and have any serious injuries. Uh,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the good news, uh, is that on the return side,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Eli Raritan, Craig Woodson, Draymond Jones, all at practice today, uh,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: I actually thought that the edges played pretty well and
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: that came on Sunday and weren't the problem. But still
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: getting Draymond Jones back is important and the rotation is
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: important and having three guys that you feel like you
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: can play versus two is important. But I think more importantly,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: not to take anything away from Draymond Jones, is Eli
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Rairdon and Craig Woodson being back at practice and hopefully
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: playing in this game on Sunday, I think would be
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: huge for them.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it would, especially Raritan, just getting more out of
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: the tight ends, kind of stressing the Bills' defense a
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: little bit. Vrabel mentioned what he brought as a blocker
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: as well. Blocking, blocking, blocking. Yeah, so hopefully those guys
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: are on the right track.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: All right, the last one, we got to mention the quarterback.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Drake May on the injury report is a full participant
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: in Wednesday's practice with a right shoulder injury. Just off
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: the top, I don't know anything. I have no inside information.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Based off of what's being reported out there, though, it
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: does sound like most people are being told that this
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: isn't a major cause for concern. Now, it's never great
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: to see the quarterback on the injury report ever.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: How many weeks in a row was Tom Brady on
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: there with the right shoulder?
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: I was just about to say that. I think that this, though,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: this injury in particular, a right shoulder injury to a
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: right-handed quarterback.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Is not.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Out of the realm of like normalcy, like for like
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: they throw a lot, they throw a.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Lot, right? They get hit maintenance.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: They throw a lot and they get hit. Uh, so
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: receiving treatment, uh, you know, being on an injury report
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: as a full participant with a little bit of a
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: shoulder soreness or shoulder pain, whatever you want to call it.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: I think it was like 10 years that Brady was
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: on the injury report with right shoulder soreness. So I
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: don't think that it's anything to sound any alarms about
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: based off of what everybody is reported and saying about this,
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: but it, you know, we're doing the news and he's
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: on the injury report. So it is what it is.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: It's obviously a little more notable because he's coming off
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: of that injury last week. Mike Vrabel was asked about
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: it on Monday last year. You mean last year? Yeah. Um,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Mike Vrabel was asked about it on Monday said that
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: he didn't, expect any, you know, issues from it. You know,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: I think it's, for all we know, it could have
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: happened last week, right? It could be unrelated. I don't
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: know that for sure.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: He did take some hits in that game, certainly. Yeah. But,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: you know, I think after what happened last year and
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: then just him struggling to start season, if he was
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: playing fine and this happened, you just, I mean, I'm
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: not saying it would be nothing, but it would be like,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: all right, you know, season's underway, some bumps and bruises.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: If he's a limited participant, that's another story. But, Yeah,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, we'll see. It's been kind of weird with it.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: They've downplayed it. May downplayed it. I know he kind
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: of talked around it a little bit on Sunday. When
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: he got asked about it, he got asked directly yes
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: or no yesterday and said it wasn't impacting the way
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: he was throwing the ball or his decision-making, which has
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: been the bigger issue. But, I mean, it's something to watch.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Quarterback's on the injury report. It's something to watch. Like
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: you said, it's not totally unheard of for a guy
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: to just be on there because he's getting maintenance on
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: his shoulder because he's throwing, you know, how many– Throws
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: as a quarterback making practice times three days a week
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: plus the game.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Plus he's taking hits. Like, you got to get that
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: looked at.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: It's maybe a little bit different because he does run.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: And so he maybe is a little bit more subjected
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: to hits than, like, a Tom Brady was in his career.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: He hasn't taken a hit really on a run this year,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: has he? I think it's not a bad job.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: No, but he's still getting hit and getting taken to
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the ground and stuff like that. I would just say...
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: Going back to Brady for a second, and I mentioned
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: this the other day, I was scrolling the other night
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: and I came across a video of Tom Brady talking
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: on a panel somewhere. It's old. It's not a new video.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: And he was asked, when did you become a robot?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: When did you become obsessed with... Your body and TB12
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. And he said that
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: right around like the mid 2000s, like 2005, 2006, let's
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: call it somewhere around there, he started to have a
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: lot of right shoulder fatigue and right shoulder pain. And
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: one of the things that he mentioned, along with his
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: diet and his exercise regimen changing and Alex Guerrero and
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: all that stuff was his mechanics, was his throwing mechanics.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: And like, again, I don't know that any of this
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: is an issue for Drake May. I'm just saying just
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: from experience, you know, watching Brady and listening to Brady.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: One of the things that. throwing mechanics that's important is
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: like the mechanical chain right so it starts with your
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: feet then it usually goes to like your hips and
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: torso then your shoulders and then your arm and like
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: really sound mechanically sound quarterbacks they don't put all the
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: stress on their arm to throw the ball they spread
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: out the stress throughout their body and sometimes when you
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: are a quarterback, that's throwing a lot with your arm
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: and your arm is doing a lot of the heavy lifting.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: That's when your arm can start to get a little
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: bit sore and wonky. So I think that these are
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: all things that as a young player, Drake may probably
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: isn't overly concerned about, but with Brady, it didn't happen
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: until he was probably in his late twenties that had
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: started to be an issue.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And that's when you start to make adjustments and maybe
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: hone in a little bit more. So that's something that
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: I'm looking for moving forward in general, just from an
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: offensive standpoint is that you'd want to see Drake Mays
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: footwork and his mechanics be a little bit cleaner. I
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: never expect him to be Tom Brady, right? But I
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: think that that's a starting point. Let's talk about the offense.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I have a take because I think there's a lot
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: of questions, a lot of we're all trying to solve
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: this problem and we have zero say in it, but
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: we're all trying to solve it anyway. And, uh, you know,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: what are your ideas for waking this offense up and
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: fixing this offense and fixing Drake may, I think it's
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: a big subject, the conversation that's kind of, uh, catch
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: 22 related, you know? And one of the things that,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: that dawned on me when I was preparing for the bills,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: looking at their offense is just the splits between the
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Patriots and the bills as an under center operation. And
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: I know you don't believe me, but I want the
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Patriots to play from under center. The guys that I
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: really think are great at play calling and at play design,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: like Kyle Shanahan and Ben Johnson and those guys, they're
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: all under center heavy offenses. All their offenses rank near
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: the top of league and under center rate. So before
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: I get into it, This whole take, like I, I
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: don't want them to be a shotgun heavy offense necessarily,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: but I think we're getting into the point of the season. Uh,
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: now three games in about to be four games in
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: where you're starting to get a lot of data and
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: like the sample size is starting to emerge where you
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: kind of understand what the team is good at and
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: what the team isn't good at about. I would say, uh,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: around like halloween right so we're not quite there but
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: we're getting there uh you know faster than maybe it
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: appears the patriots right now are ninth in the league
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: in under center rate so they have the ninth highest
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: under center percentage so their top 10 team this is
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: a big part of what they want to do do
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: you know what they were last year they were top
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: 10 as well okay they want to play from under
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: center like they want to be an under center football
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: team However, as of right now, and it's only three games,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: but as of right now, they are 31st in the
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: league in EPA per play from under center. They are
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: also dead last 32nd in the league in yards per
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: play from under center. If you're not, you don't want
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: to use the math. You can use just pure yards
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: per play. They're only averaging 3.4 yards per play from
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: under center right now. That's last in the NFL. So
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: as much as, I understand that they want that to
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: be a big part of their identity. And I think
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: it should be, you know, holistically you get into the
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: season and I think you start to figure out, all right,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: like what is this personnel good at? Like what, what,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: what is this team good at? What is this offense
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: capable of doing? And even though the numbers from the
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: shotgun are not, amazing because of the turnovers. They're not great.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: They're still instead of 31st in EPA per play from
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: under center, they're 18th in shotgun.
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: And they're actually fifth in yards per play from shotgun.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: So again, small sample size, but I think that when
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: you look at them right now, I don't hate the
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: idea for now of finding ways to operate more from
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: shotgun and be a little bit more of a spread
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: oriented football team. And I think it relates to the
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: running game. You know, like, can you spread defenses out
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: instead of trying to put multiple tight ends on the
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: field or a sixth offensive lineman or a fullback and
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: trying to just run downhill at teams? Can you spread
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: teams out a little bit more light in boxes, get
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: them into, you know, uh, coverage personnel, whether it's nickel
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: dime personnel, whatever the case may be, uh, maybe incorporate
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: a few more RPOs here and there as well, and
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: try to run the ball that way, because clearly running
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: the ball from under center is not working, you know?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: So I, I, I, I don't want to ditch under
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: center completely. Cause I believe in it as like an
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: identity thing. Uh, but I do think that just looking
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: at it from a data perspective and also just watching it, uh,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: that right now they're just not very good at it.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: And if you're not good at something, then you probably
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: shouldn't do it as much as you're doing it.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think spreading things out will just help
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: make things easier for Drake May, too. It makes his
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: defense declare a little more. He can kind of get
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: a better idea of what he's looking at. So I
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: do think there's something to that, going at a shotgun,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: letting Drake May see the whole picture. Now, I don't
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: think it's a permanent fix. I think it's something that,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: you know, in the offseason you need to work on,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: because I think you need to be able to do both.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: to really be a high-level offense in the NFL. But, yeah,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I think more shotgun, spreading things out more, and especially, like,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: they're not getting a ton of help from Reggie Gilliam
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: So that downhill run game, the line can't get that
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: initial push. Just forcing the defense to play a little
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: thinner would probably help.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I just feel like they.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: We're starting to see more and more that just being
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: an offense that just gets on double teams and moves
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: people at the line of scrimmage and can really just
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: kind of power up and just out-muscle and out-will teams
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: that way. I just don't think that that's what their
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: personnel is best at right now. So I think that
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: there's ways from Shotgun to really start to get creative
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: with different... formations and different motions and different schemes like
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: RPOs and things like that. Quarterback runs, you know, at
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: this point they got to find ways to move the
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: ball and put points on the board.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: So I'm not the hugest fan at either of running
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Drake may a ton and maybe a lot of those
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: runs that are option runs where he doesn't actually run
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: a ton, you know, like it's just a threat of
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: him running. Or maybe it's an RPO or there's a
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: screen attached to it or a slant flat or a
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: curl flat attached to it that has a route being
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: run on the outside. But I just think in general,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: that's probably where they're better at right now. And the
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: yards per play number in shotgun, I think kind of
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: tells the story of they can move the ball and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: they can hit explosive plays. You know, another stat that
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: they're down near the bottom of the league and from
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: under center is explosive play rate. And I think that
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: some of the things that you're seeing schematically from teams
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: when they're under center, first of all, like up front,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: they're run blitzing them a lot and they're stunting inside.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Jacksonville stunted inside a lot against them and they're kind
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: of blowing up their interior runs by either stunting or
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: slanting or penetrating to the inside. The other thing that
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: teams are doing more and more of, just generally speaking,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: not just to Drake May, is they're changing the picture
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: on play action. So when he turns around and puts
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: his back to the defense on play action, he's looking
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: at one thing pre-snap. It's a single high shell pre-snap.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: And then when he turns back around to throw the football,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: now all of a sudden they're in a two high defense.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: And so I wonder how much of that is also
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: holding up, you know, the fumble where the ball just
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: slipped out of his hand. That's one of those looks
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: where he's under center. He turns around to play action pass.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: He looks down the field and all of a sudden now, oh,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I thought that this was post safety, you know, a
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: single high safety. And they're actually in quarters. They're actually
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: in two high safety. This is not what I was
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: expecting to get. And maybe that moments of hesitation and
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: that sort of indecisiveness is is stemming from that. So again,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I'm with you. I don't think that that's a consistent
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: way to live in shotgun all the time. Like I,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think that I don't want to call it gimmicky,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: but I don't think that it's like a great way
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: to be, especially when it, you know, it gets to
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: December and January and the weather starts being a factor
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: and all those types of things. But right now, they've
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: got to find ways to put points on the board,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: and they've got to find ways to win some football games.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: And so I think at this point in the season,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: leaning heavier into that, I think, is really the way
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: to go. I mean, I know on Tuesday I was
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: talking a lot about motions and things like that, and that,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I think, is a big part of the under-center stuff.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: With all that type of stuff, though, I'll give Taylor
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Kyles his flowers on this because he keeps reminding me
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: of this. you can't just all of a sudden be
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: a Kyle Shanahan offense overnight. Like the motions and the
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: things that they installed, they've been running those things since
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: the spring. They install those things in OTAs.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: That's what I was trying to tell you.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: So you can't just all of a sudden be this
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: like exotic window dressing offense overnight. So if that's not
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: necessarily part of their, their install, that's not like a
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: big part of their playback. Now I still think they
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: could do it more and I'll push back on that.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Like I still think that that could be a bigger
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: thing that they do, but if that isn't something that
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: they feel like they major in, like they can't just
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden snap a finger and be a
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: big part of what they do. Then I think spreading
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: defenses out, going shotgun and trying to run the ball
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: that way is maybe a better answer to what they're doing.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: The other thing, just quickly on the run game, and
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: then we'll talk about the bills. Travion Henderson last year.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: was 49% of his runs were to the outside. That
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: number has decreased this year by over 10%. Only 37%
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: of his runs through two games, you know, he's only
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: played two games, have been to the outside. So, like,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: all of these things are, I think, factors in all
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: of this. So, when you look at the Bills' defense,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: some of the things that they've struggled with on tape,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: outside runs, you know, crack tosses, you know, toss the
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: ball outside, and RPO runs. And, you know, because they'll match...
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: spread formation, usually in a too high safety shell. And
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: you can usually run the ball against that, uh, a
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: little bit more effectively. So this seems like a week
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: where it kind of lines up with the bills weaknesses
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: as well to maybe try to get the ball outside
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: a little bit more and try to run the ball
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: out of shotgun a little bit more. Uh, let, let,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: let's set the stage, the stage for the bills though.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: I was just a little anecdote on the bills, but
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I need to get your temperature check on the bills
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: right now because, uh, we disagree on the bills every year. Yeah.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: It's one of the, I think, uh, best debates of
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: the show ongoing running debates. Uh, so where is Alex
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Barth on the three and Oh, Joe Brady, Buffalo bills
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: They've looked good. I'd like to see them. I guess
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't say face a little diversity, the Houston game
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: they did. And they, they came out good at the end.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Like they've, they've, they look like the bills. They look
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the same as they did. I know defensively they're different schematically,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: but like, They look the same as they did under
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Sean McDermott. It's a good start. They play the Rams
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: in a couple weeks. That'll be interesting. So, yeah, I
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't think they look any noticeably better,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: noticeably worse. They kind of look the same. They went
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: to two, and I don't mean that as a knock.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: They've been a good team. They still look like a
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: good team. The turnovers may be starting to catch up
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: with them a little bit more. They had none the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: first two weeks, so they had a few chances. They
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: had five last week, including three from Allen, so... We'll
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: see if that was kind of regression of the mean,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: if it's a sign of things to come, because that's
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: always like, the Bills live and die on turnovers. That's
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: just what they are. They are what their quarterback is.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: When he and they don't turn the ball over, they're
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: very hard to beat because they play a very explosive
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: style that comes with risk, and when they mitigate the risk,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: it's all explosiveness. When those risks come back to bite them,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think they necessarily, maybe more now with James Cook,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: have the patience and the sustainability to battle through it.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: So let's see. The turnover started catch up to him
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: last week. The Chargers are ass. I'll tell you, team,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I have changed my opinion on it. I thought the
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Chargers were going to be okay. Chargers might suck. I
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: don't know. Do you feel differently?
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: No, I don't feel differently.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I don't even mean this to knock the bills. Like
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: they've just played some very uninspiring football.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: I've always felt, and I thought watching Justin Herbert last week,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: He had some Drake May turnovers in that game. One
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: of them didn't count. There was a penalty on it,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: but it was a bad play. Maybe he saw the
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: flag and just threw it up. I don't know.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: That's the one you're talking about. I think they were
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: talking about this on the broadcast that he thought he
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: had a free play and he didn't.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: So he threw a ball. directly to the post safety
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: on one of the interceptions. I think the one that
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: did count. And then he threw another one that he
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: kind of just like threw up in the end zone,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: sort of like the Travis Hunter interception on Sunday. And
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: so that was kind of odd. I just never really
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: got the Jim Harbaugh shine when they hired me that higher.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: And like, they kind of thought that that was going
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: to make them this like tougher football team. I just
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: never really bought it. And so I'm not all that
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: surprised that the chargers are still charging. Like they look good.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: They have good players. They, they have, you know, if
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: you're building like a Madden roster or a fantasy roster,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: like it's not a bad team.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Uh, but it's never like tangible, but back to the bills. Um, so,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: so you're ready to admit the bills are pretty good.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: I never said they weren't good.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: You kind of did.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: I never said they weren't good. I thought they were
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: going to have some regression this year.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: And they're 3-0.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: A lot of season left.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So you think the regression could still come? You're not
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: ready to give up on the take?
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I only turned the ball over five times last week.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: You're so take-cornered that you're not ready to admit that
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: they are.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Not going to have regression. I thought they'd win less
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: games this year than they did last year. They won, what,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: 11 last year?
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: They're not going to win less games.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: We'll see.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of season left.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: He does have a good point.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Well, this is talk radio 101. He's not wrong yet.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: So you don't admit that you're wrong until you're wrong.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Well, they went from no turnovers to no turnovers to five.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: So let's see how that goes. I am impressed that
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Allen isn't even on the injury report. That was a
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: big shot he took to his knee last week. So
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: let's see how he yields up. Sorry, I was supposed
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: to run these by you. I meant more in the
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: idea of the Patriots-Bills game.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, I think that's the best that I'm going to
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: get out of them.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Is that not an accurate assessment of where they are?
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: They're playing well. The turnovers crept back in last week.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I suppose. And I guess defensively.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: They turned the ball over five times last week and
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: still won the game pretty comfortably.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: We agree the Chargers are not very good.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, but even if we think the Chargers are very good,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: they put 36 points up on the Texans, which is
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: really impressive. And in that Lions game, I mean, he
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: was the player of the week coming off of the
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Lions game. He was excellent in that game. I think
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: the biggest thing that I'm seeing with Allen, that really
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: just kind of like shows his maturation.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: As a player. Oh, so just real quick, has the
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Texans defense regressed?
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: See, so now the Texans defense regressed. The Chargers aren't
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: actually good.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: 19th in points against this year for three weeks.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, how many points? 19th in points against. Okay.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: All right. I think Allen right now, and some of
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: it is irrational confidence at times, and I'll give you that,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: but Allen right now is seeing the field exceptionally well.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I really feel like he's getting to that point where
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: he's starting to really... not only just be able to
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: make the big plays, but also process the game. His
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: manipulation of coverage, he's got a great pump fake now
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: to move zone defenders and come back to things in
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: the middle of the field. He threw a touchdown to
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Josh Palmer against the Lions. And I didn't get a
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: chance to sneak it into anything because it just didn't fit.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: But he threw a touchdown pass to Josh Palmer against
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: the Lions that I know was a coverage bust. But
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: if you go back and you watch that throw, watch
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: how early Allen throws that ball. He is just seeing it.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: really cleanly right now like really quickly like as soon
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: as he sees that the safety on that side of
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the field is attaching to the the deep post and
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: isn't going to carry the seam the ball is already
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: he's already into his throwing motion the ball is already
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: out of his hand When we talk about these things
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: with Drake May in terms of trust and anticipation and
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: feel and that kind of stuff, Allen's doing all those
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: types of things. Now, he still has some wonky turnovers
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: like he did last week. I told you, I texted
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: you earlier that I thought they didn't play well last week.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Obviously didn't. He turned the ball over three times. But
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: I think that that's really what I'm seeing with him
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: as a passer. That's really impressive. Now, just talking a
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: little bit about the Bills' offense, I think the Bills
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: offense has really kind of reinvented itself over the last
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: couple of years. They are like a bully ball offense.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: So this is the first thing I want to ask you.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Am I allowed to say that I am, especially in
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: this matchup, much more concerned about the Bills run game
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: than pass game?
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: to me, that's not offensive to Josh Allen.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: So I think the best way I can describe it
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: is that Josh Allen's the head of the snake, but
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: I think James Cook is like the engine.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Of the offense.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: You know, I think those are two different things. Like
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: I think Josh Allen is, uh, probably opening up a
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: lot of the things that James Cook is getting because
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: teams are worried about the deep ball and his ability
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: to run and all those different things. So I'm sure
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: that that softens the box a little bit for James Cook.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: But their run game, like basically multiple years in a
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: row now, is one of the best in the league.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Through three weeks, they're number one in EPA, number one
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: in success rate. They are the best run offense in football.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: through three weeks. They play from under center at the
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: third highest rate in the league. They play with multiple
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: tight ends at the highest rate in the league. Nobody
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: plays more multiple tight end sense than Buffalo.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Well, because they do use Kincaid as a receiver.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: And I want to get to Kincaid in a second.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But they have kind of reinvented themselves in this way.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: And I think that your point about turnovers, and it
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: didn't work last week fully, but I think that's where
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: it stems from a little bit, is that They just
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: decided that we are just going to drop back a
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: little bit less so that the volume doesn't present as
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: many turnover opportunities when we have those turnover worthy plays,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: but we're still going to be ultra efficient because the
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: run game is going to be good. And Alan on
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: the move is just dynamic, you know, and they boot
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: the quarterback out. Like he's just a problem. And they
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: do that at a very high rate as well. So I,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I am with you. I think the best part about
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: the Bills' offense right now, and it all goes hand-in-hand,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: like Allen obviously has an impact in this sense as well,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: but the best part about the Bills' offense right now
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: is putting the quarterback under center, running the football at
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: James Cook, and then scripting plays in the play-action passing
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: game off of the James Cook runs. You can get
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: boat race. by Buffalo right now in that phase of
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: the game.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Without them throwing the ball.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Or with them throwing the ball on design play actions
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: where it's very scripted, which I think helps with the turnovers.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: That helps.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they play a very safe brand of football.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Right, and it helps Allen, and he's still so explosive.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: that they can still generate the big plays, even if
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: they're kind of being a little bit more conservative schematically.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Well, James Cook can generate big plays too. I mean,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: his ability to, he.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: He, his cuts and like everybody's at the point.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Of attack, his ability to redirect when the hole's not there.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, you see it like four or five times
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: a game with him. Just, they try to run up
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the middle of the holes, not there. It's one cut
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: to the outside. And now he's on the edge. And
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: you talked about this on Tuesday. It's something we're seeing
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: teams do to the Patriots defensively, uh, When you see
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the inside run and those edge guys start to suck
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: in a little bit.
• 30:28
  Speaker 6: Yep.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: And now suddenly Cook's gone from the A-gap to outside
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: the tackle like that. And he's got a runway and
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: he's gone.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: He's smooth, man. He's really smooth.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Might be their best offensive player.
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: Of course.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Of course you would say that. He's really smooth. He's
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: definitely their best skill player. No doubt about that. They
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: have a really good offensive line, too. In terms of
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: trying to defend them, I would say.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: You have to stop the run.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: You have to stop the run.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: You have to stop the run. And if you don't
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: do that, nothing else is going to happen.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: So in order to stop the run, though, and this
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Patriots team has struggled to stop the run, definitely last week,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I would say, and even a little bit, I would say,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: in the opener, at times they struggled to stop the run.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, like Pittsburgh has an okay rush offense statistically,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: but I'm not really afraid of anything with Pittsburgh's offense.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: In terms of stopping the run, I do think that
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: this is a game where I would expect or hope
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: to see the Patriots play like 50% man coverage in
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: this game. Because if you're going to try to stop
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: the run, then you need to get as many hats
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: in the box as you possibly can. And I think
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the worst thing that you can do is play a
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: lot of zone and then have all those linebackers or
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: your second level players. Now they're in conflict all the
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: time because they have zone responsibilities in the past game
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: and then they have run responsibilities in the fits and
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: And so now when they play action, it's like you're spinning.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: And that's, I think, what was happening a little bit
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: to the Lions is their heads started to spin because
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: it was like, what are we... Am I dropping? Am
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: I covering my zone? Or am I playing to run here?
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: And the Bills just had them in a blender. They
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: just didn't know what was coming. So... The two kind
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: of issues, like I would play a lot of man. Now,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: the two issues that that presents are Josh Allen, him running,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: and extending plays is a concern. And then you mentioned
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Dalton Kincaid. I think DJ Moore, Khalil Shakir, Keon Coleman,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I will take Christian Gonzalez, Marcus Jones, and Carlton Davis
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: all day against those three receivers. I think they can
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: win those matchups across the board. The issue that I
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: would have is, How are you going to contain Allen
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: in the pocket and prevent him from scrambling all over
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: you if you're in man-to-man coverage? And how do you
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: cover Kincaid? Are you bracketing Kincaid? Are you double-teaming him?
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Are you thinking, and we bring this up all the
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: time and I feel like it never happens, but are
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: you thinking about putting one of the corners on him?
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, in theory, this is where a player
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: like Jalen Reed would be huge. Now, we'll see if
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: he's up for it. They've kind of eased him into
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: the offense. But in either of those roles, either spying
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Allen or, right, he's kind of here to be. Remember,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: we thought this was going to be Marte Mampu for
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: a few years. He's kind of here in that role,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: whether it's spying Allen or covering Kincaid. You know, somebody
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: like him, Christian Ellis has been playing well. Maybe he
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: goes there. I would not– I think Carlton Davis on
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Kincaid would not be a bad matchup if you want
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: to go that route. I think that could make sense.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Kincaid is a dynamic receiver. He's number one in the
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: league right now in yards by tight ends, you know,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: receiving yards by tight ends.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Because he's a wide receiver.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: He's explosive. He's good up the seam, but he's also good,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: you know, at the top of the route and he
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: can get open. uh, at the top of the route
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: as well on like angles and slants and things like that. Uh,
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: he's an impressive player. He's had an impressive start to
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: the season. And, uh, that would be the matchup that
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: would worry me the most other than Alan killing you
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: with his legs. If you're going to play that much, man,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I like the idea of Ellis, uh, as a spy
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: and Ellis, Ellis will punish you too, if you run. So,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that that's something that we've seen before. Uh,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that the other concern or issue
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: that you have with Josh Allen is like, If you
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: have a DB spying him, he's bigger than the defensive
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: back is.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: No, it has to be a linebacker or safety.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: And I don't think Spillane's got the foot speed anymore
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: to do it.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: It has to be Ellis or Reed. Reed's a bigger
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: defensive back.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Reed might be able to do it.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're not going to have somebody who's 240
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: spying Allen. Like, that's just not realistic.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: No, but he is 240.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. You're not going to get somebody who's... Actually,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: how big is Ellis? Ellis isn't 240. He might be
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: up there.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: 230.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: And he hits.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, he'll... Just have him do what he did
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: against Jackson Dart last year. Obviously, it won't be as easy, but... Maybe, like, don't,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: you know... That one was, like, borderline.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: It was right on the sideline.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's great.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: No, but you know what? This kills me all the time.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I've told you this. Let me say it. Am I
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: allowed to give my take about teams respecting Josh Allen
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: too much?
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: This is your, this is, no, I don't want it.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Cause apparently I just defend.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: It's bills week. And I feel like you're holding back.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: It's a very powerful, it's a very powerful lobby. The
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Josh Allen industrial complex. I don't want to run a
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: foul of it.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: You better not.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: So I want to make sure. Because you see it
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: where I don't know if it's cause he's so big
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: and guys don't want to deal with the contact or
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: they're worried about the, the, the QB call flag, the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: superstar QB flag. I, um, It was either 21 or 22,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: the game here. I think it was Mack Wilson. They
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: had Allen pinned to the sideline.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: But nobody actually pushed him out of bounds. Yeah. And
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: he just kind of got next to him.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Like, you have to finish plays against Josh Allen. And
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I don't want this to come across as, and this
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: is in all actuality, like... obviously don't take cheap shots.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: You don't commit penalties, but like, yeah, there might be
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: a superstar flag. You have to finish the play. You
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: have to finish the play. He is going to finish
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: the play.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: He is.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: He is going to play till the whistle. You have
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: to as well. And so it's not as simple as
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: we'll just kind of guide him. I know the sidelines
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: never missed a tackle, but it's not as simple. It's
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: just kind of guide him out of bounds. Like you
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: have to make sure he gets out of bounds because
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: as long as he has a blade of grass between
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the green and the white, he's still a threat to
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: make a play. So, like, I know I get what
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: you're saying about Ellis and that play on Jackson Dart,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: but like him among all quarterbacks, you have to take
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: that risk. And I will say the NFL is kind
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: of pulled back a little bit. There was one in
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Monday Night Football where Jalen Hurt got hit maybe like
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: a hair late.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And they talked about on the broadcast. We're like, well,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: you know, when they didn't get when they gave the
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: quarterbacks that call, you really couldn't. force them out of
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: bounds and they were just getting extra yards. So like,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: and I, this.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Is me is a king.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Holmes is amazing at that.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: He like tiptoes down. And you know what?
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people take it as a knock. Like, well, you
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: say he's getting off. He's no, these guys are smart. They,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: the court, these quarterbacks know exactly where the line is.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: And if you don't go right to that line, They will.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: And so I don't get, cause it's me. I don't
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: know how people are going to take it.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: And Alan lowers a shoulder.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: He does. I don't mean this as take cheap shots
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: at it. It's just, he's going to play to the whistle.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Trying to be so careful.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: I just want the, as a whole, I don't want
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: to be somebody who's accused of saying players, because they shouldn't,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: especially after it happened in that Oregon USC game. I
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: don't know if you saw that yet. Don't do that,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: but you have to play to the whistle. Against him.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: And teams don't. They respect him. I don't know what
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: it is. With him and Mahomes especially. Maybe it's just
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: the calls they get. But it'll burn you. You might
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: get a 15-yard penalty. Or he might throw a touchdown.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: You have to finish plays. He's thrown so many.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Crazy throws out of structure against the Patriots over the
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: last six years, where he is right up against the
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: sideline and he'll throw it back into the end zone
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: across his body. Like he has no problem doing that.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: The Lions picked one off on him and there was
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: a flag on the play. The only other thing I
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: was going to add, then we have to take a
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: quick break, is... When he throws you the ball, catch it.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: You have to. I know.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: That sounds so simple. Remember, there's been.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: So many of these. The J.C. Jackson one here a
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: couple years ago.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Lassiter in the opener against Houston.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: It sounds crazy.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: When he puts the ball on the ground, go get it.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: He will throw you one or two.
• 38:09
  Speaker 5: Catch it. Please.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: You have to get. He's not going to. When he
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: gives you the chances, you have to take them.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The Lions had.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: You cannot give this guy extra chances.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: A goal line.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Am I allowed to say that? Because I said that
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: after the Houston game and people got mad at me.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: So, the one that I think, like. the Houston one
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: obviously was a huge play in the game and a
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: huge time in the game for that to happen. But
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: the lie, he threw one back into the end zone
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: against the lions. The exact play that you're talking about,
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: where he was running up against the sideline, he threw
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: back into the middle of the field. It got tipped
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: in the defensive lineman, actually caught the tip and intercepted
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: the pass and, And the Texans got called for like
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: an illegal con or the lions got called for like
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: a legal contact or something. And it wiped out the
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: penalty and they just Buffalo just scored on the very
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: next play. And like, those are the types of things
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: that you just, you can't, you.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Don't have that room for error on defense when he
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: throws you on and he will throw you in one,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: maybe two, you have to catch it.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: All right, let's take a quick break. And I want
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about the, uh, the bills
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: defense and we'll do key matchups.
• 39:11
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  Speaker 2: Catch, catch, catch, catch, catch. All right. The last 15
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: minutes here, I want to talk about a little bit
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: more about the Bills defense because we've been very offense
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: heavy for a good reason on both sides, both teams here.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Quickly on the Bills scheme, and then I have a
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: couple of key matchups that are on the defensive side
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: of the ball, too. They changed their scheme. It's a
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: completely different defense. They're running a 3-4 defense.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: Uh, defense.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Now, uh, Sean McDermott for a decade in Buffalo ran
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: a four to five nickel with a four, three over
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: front where they had four guys down on the line
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: of scrimmage. And they played a lot of zone coverage,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of match zones, a lot of cover too. Uh,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: that was the defense that he played in Carolina. That
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: was the defense that he brought, uh, when he became
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: the bill's head coach. Uh, And now, you know, Jim
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Leonard is running a odd front 3-4 team that is
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: playing with five guys on the line a lot. And
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: it has really unlocked Greg Rousseau in particular, which we'll
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: get to a little bit more. But I think that there's...
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: some opportunities to throw the ball on this team. Now
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: they've been very good, uh, out of two high safety shells. Uh,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: they have not been as good against single high safety shells.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: So for the third consecutive week, I'll say it again.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: You got to run them out of the two high
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: shells over and over again. Uh, I feel like a
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: broken record on that one. Uh, but I think it's
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: another one of those weeks, uh, as you know, he
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: segued a key matchups, Alex, where, uh, this all starts
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: up front. Like, can the Patriots' offensive line handle what
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: has become a really, really good Buffalo Bills defensive front
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: led by one of your guys, Deion Walker?
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Deion Walker, stud. Absolute stud. Unicorn player, is playing up
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: to every bit of it. And then they also have
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Ed Oliver in the middle, too, who's a good player, which,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a key matchup right there. Whoever is
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: at right guard, Jared Wilson and Elijah Tucker against those guys,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: And I think just to kind of go back to
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: what we were talking about at the top of the show,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: how the Patriots can adjust their run game, they've mostly
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: tried to be between the tackles. You have to get
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: the ball to the outside in this game. You're just
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: not running on Deion Walker and... at Oliver with any
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: sort of regularity. You're not going to, especially not Walker.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: I agree. And just like watching Buffalo on tape this week,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: you know, a lot of good plays out of like
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: crack tosses and counters.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: They're still not great against the run.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: They're not there. This is kind of a weakness on weakness.
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: The bills right now are 23rd and 27th in EPA
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: and success rate against the run. So they're, they're bottom
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: 10 in the league in both metrics.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Do you know the split inside the tackles and outside
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: the tackles?
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I don't off the top of my head. But the
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Patriots are obviously bottom of the league in a lot
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: of run statistics right now. So this is kind of
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: who can strengthen a weakness better in this game. Can
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: the Patriots find a running game? Can the Bills find
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: a run defense? Even though they've changed their scheme, they've
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: changed their coaching staff. The Bills have not been able
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: to stop the run in a couple of years now.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: It's been an issue for them for a while. Everyone,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I think, thought in a lot of ways that it
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: was a McDermott schematic thing because they were playing the
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: way that they were playing and the structure.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: That's a Billy Bean thing.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Also, the scheme, I... I don't know. You know, I
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: don't know what it is. Like you look at Dion
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Walker and Greg Russo, these guys are, are Adonis's, they're
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: huge dudes. Like you would think that they would be
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: able to, to stop the run. You know, in the
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: old scheme, they played so much zone coverage that their
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: linebackers were a little bit more finesse, like Matt Milano's
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: and trim and stuff like that. So I think a
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: lot of it was chalked up to that. Uh, and
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Oliver is a smaller guy. He's a great player. Don't
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: get me wrong, but he's not like a block eater
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: or like a space eater. He's a, he's a pass rusher.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I want in a guy that wants to get up
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: the field. So can the Patriots find a run game
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: against Buffalo?
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: The bills have actually, they've allowed 4.9 yards per carry.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: I'll give you the EPA plus 0.17 inside the tackles.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Outside the tackles, they've actually been a lot better.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: 3.4 yards minus.
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: 16.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: That's not what I would say anecdotally it looks like.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: That's not what it looks like on tape.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: No.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: No.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: So maybe we'll look deeper into those numbers.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Maybe there's one play. It's still early in the season.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: There could be one play skew on that.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Even still, I would say like watching Jameer Gibbs run
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: against them a couple of weeks ago, a lot of
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: those runs are like pointed outside the tackles and then
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: it's being cut back into the middle of the field.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: So I think that that's maybe where the numbers are
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: being a little bit skewed from because Gibbs did hit
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: some right up the middle, but they were on plays
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: that he was aimed outside and cut it back through
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: the middle of the field. Um, but that that's really
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: the key to the game to me. And it will
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: be until they stop, you know, until they're able to
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: run the ball a bit more consistently as a, you know,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: can they get last year? They face two high safeties
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: at a 38% rate, the Patriots this year, they're facing
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: it at a 51% rate. Yeah. And so everybody's asking like,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: where's why what's wrong with Drake may, where's the deep balls,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: where's the downfield, you know, go balls on the outside,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: the numbers, um, they're taking it away. That's what it is.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Like if you don't get single high safety and you
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: don't get man to man a lot, like you're not
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: going to be taking deep shots to, you know, number
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: one receivers outside the numbers when they're clouding the deep
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: part of the field. Like it's not there.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to be a broken record, but
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: you have to earn those plays.
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: And the only way you get them. And it's something
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: that Josh Allen did that turned his career around him
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: and my homes and my homes and a number of
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: other guys.
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: And some of the guys that have a lot of talent,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: but aren't as good, haven't earned that, you have to
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: hit the underneath stuff. You have to run the ball.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: You have to hit your checkdowns. You have to create
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: after the catch. You have to give defenses reasons to
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: be more concerned about the short, intermediate parts of the field.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Until you do that, they're going to take away the
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: deep stuff all day and dare you to go on
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: the 12-play drive. Because most quarterbacks, most offenses in the
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: modern NFL... cannot do it.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: And the quarterbacks get impatient, which is what's happening.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: That's why they can't do it. Yeah, no, they have
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: the talent to do it, but this generation of quarterbacks
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: wants their highlights. That's what they want. They want... Dang.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: We went there.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: No, it's all of them. What do you mean, they?
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: No, I said you went there. That it's a generational thing.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: I think so.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: You think so?
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Do these quarterbacks approach the game the same way as Brady, Manning... Uh,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe breeze is an exception here.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. But I think that Rogers,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: I think the difference though, and this is like.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: A big offense is not quarterback.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: It's a bigger conversation that we probably don't have time
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: for right now. Uh, but I think the, the difference is,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: is like Brady Manning breeze. Those guys had to play
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: that way. They weren't physically gifted enough to play a
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: different way. They couldn't play out of structure, and they
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: couldn't run around.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: But it's not just that. You can hunt big plays
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: from in the pocket.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: But they couldn't play. They didn't have the physical talent
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: that Josh Allen and Drake May.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: And Patrick Ross. I'm not talking about the running around
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: and all that.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: But just in general.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I'm just talking about the emphasis of staying on schedule,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: taking what the defense gives you, like that whole thing.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: I think that that stems from the fact that those players,
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: to succeed, they needed to win up here. and they
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: needed to win that way. Like Brady, I think would,
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: has said that numerous times that like his superpower was
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: his brain. I think that these younger quarterbacks, and I
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: think this is sort of just where quarterbacking is gone
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: for better or worse. Their superpowers are their physical gifts. Like,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: so they, they're winning in different.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Ways, but it's, Not, but Brady.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: And I'm not necessarily saying that that's better or worse.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying that that's what it is.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: I think it makes it a lot harder. Forget the,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: but the physical gifts aside, like Brady could go out
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: there and hunt explosive plays when he was given a chance.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: It didn't necessarily look the same, but he could go
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: out there and say, I'm going to throw the deep
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: ball all day today. I'm not going to worry about
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: what's underneath. I want to go over the top. And
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: he still had the ability to do that. Yeah.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: But he, but he had to, he had to win
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: the game between the years. He knew that. He had
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: to master the game like that. Peyton Manning had to
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: master the game like that. How about Rodgers? He played
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: like this at a younger age. The way that all
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: these kids are playing these days, and I hate to
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: say kids, I'm like some old man, but the way
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: that they're all playing these days, Rodgers is probably one
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: of the first ones in this generation to start doing that.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: You're focusing too much on the athleticism.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: It's not just the athleticism.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: Maybe the they should have been offensive coordinators, not just
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: the quarterbacks. What team's value has changed? It used to
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: be sustained drives, time of possession, ball control. If you
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: got it all in a chunk, great.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: So you're saying that the emphasis on explosive plays has
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: changed the way quarterbacks are approaching playing the game.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: And that has changed the way defenses approach quarterbacks. Yes.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Because the defenses know... The offenses are going to come in.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: We need to hit X explosive plays to win this game, right?
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: So let's just take, let's sell out to take those away.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Let's take those away no matter what. And if they
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: go down the field with 15 four-yard plays, so be it.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Because we don't think they'll do that. The impatience with
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: the quarterbacks I'm talking about is because that's how they're coached.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about, this isn't an anti-Stanahan thing.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: This goes back to like high school. This is just
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: how it's coached.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I don't think that Shanahan does any of that.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: No, this is how it's coached now. It's hunting the
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: big play.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: I just wonder if this is like a chicken or
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: the egg thing. I think that these quarterbacks... are relying
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: more on their physical gifts than the quarterbacks that you're
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: talking about.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: You've got to ignore the physical part of it.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: But that's what it is. But that's what they're good at.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: They're good at being athletes, and they're good at throwing
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: the ball down the field, and they're good at running
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: and scrambling.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Brady and Manning and Brees were good at throwing the
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: ball down the field too.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: They were accurate throwing the ball down the field. They
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: didn't have arms like these guys do.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: They had big arms.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: They had good arms. Breeze didn't have a big arm?
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: No.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Breeze did not have a big arm.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: They don't. Brady, like.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that they had, like, pea shooters. I'm
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: not saying that they have weak arms.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: The point is what is valued. Like, it's not about.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: The defenses want the quarterbacks to run because it means
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: they're not giving up the 60-yard completion.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: I just think that.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: The athleticism is not. You're missing the point.
• 52:34
  Speaker 5: Good.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I think that this is like, it's a skill set thing.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Like these quarterbacks are good at certain things. Brady, Manning,
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Breeze were good at other things.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: But the mentality is also different.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're playing to their strengths. Like, if you
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: want Drake May to sit there and just all of
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: a sudden start picking apart defenses and dissecting defenses like
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: he's Tom Brady, then honestly, like, that might be why
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: we're in where we're at, like, with him.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: But I think picking apart the defense and dissecting the
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: defense is different than taking the check down when they're playing...
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Fork deep.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: But I think that that's one and the same thing.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: It's thinking the game. It's thinking it through. It's processing
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: the game.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: It's the approach. It's not the in-play processing. It's the approach.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: So you just think that they just are saying, just
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: chuck it down the field regardless.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: That's what they want to do. That's what the offenses
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: want to do.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's what the quarterbacks want to do.
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: Because that's how they're coached.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: I think that's what they're good at. Here's the evidence that.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: It's... a change in philosophy because before the Fangio quarter
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: stuff came in vogue at the end of the Brady
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Manning breeze Rogers era, those guys were letting it rip.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Those guys were doing this. And then the defense is
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: because you had this offensive change in philosophy to, we
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: need to hunt big plays. You had that. And then
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: the member, there was that all the whole, everybody misses
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: the early 2010s and all that offensive output. Then you
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: had the Fangio stuff come in that completely limited it,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: that neutered that deep passing game. And I still think
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: there are some offensive coordinators, and I still think there
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: are some quarterbacks that want to go bombs away. Even
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: though the defense has said, we're not going to give
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: that to you. We know it's what you want. We're
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: not going to give it to you. The ones that
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: get ahead, Allen, Mahomes, are the ones that have said,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: all right, you're not going to give me the explosive play?
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: 15 plays right down your throat. And I'm going to
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: keep doing that to you until you bring those safeties
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: up and you play cover one or cover two and
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: you respect the check down and let me get the
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: deep shots I want. It's easier said than done, but
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: that's the difference to me.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I just think that the athleticism maybe plays. I
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: think we're having a classic semantics argument right now.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: No, I just think you're arguing something that I'm not
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: even talking about.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Well, but you're asking that like that every player has
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: strengths and weaknesses. Like every player has, a skill set,
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: but that makes them good.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: This isn't a specific skill set. It's a mentality. You
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: can get to that mentality in different ways.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: But it's easier for other guys. It's easier for guys
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: to get to that mentality when like, that's like what,
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: like Brady was just precise. Like he was just an
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: efficient guy.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: I would argue it might be easier for, the Allens
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: and Mahomes to run the dink and dunk because they
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: can scramble unlike Brady could.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: I disagree because like like you have to dissect underneath
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: defense you have to be accurate to the short part
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: of the field.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Not seeing underneath defense there is no underneath defense they
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: took it away that's the point.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: But they're still underneath defenders you're still processing coverage you're
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: still seeing where the space is in the zones or
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: whatever like I I think that playing that way playing
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: the way Brady did or playing the way Breeze did
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: or Manning did you're is a skill set. That's a
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: way to play quarterback. That's a strength.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's more the mentality than a physical skill set,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: and the mentality now is.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Being coached differently. It would be like saying some guys
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: in basketball are really good at driving to the hoop
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: and finishing at the rim. Some guys are really good
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: at shooting threes. Like, it's the same thing. Like, it's
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: like a power hitter in baseball versus a guy that
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: hits for average.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: If you can't hit a check down, you're not an
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: NFL quarterback.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: A guy that throws 100 versus a guy that... But
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: it's just all of it, though. Like, it's a mentality.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: It's a skill set. Like, it's just the way that
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: they approach the game. It's the way they play.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: It's their play style. But there were also guys.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, Vic.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Who had that skill set. And teams didn't necessarily play
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: that way because the mentality was to put together these
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: sustained drives. I don't know.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: Vic's not a good comparison because he was so ahead
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: of his time. Like, if Vic was.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: But this is my... Because he was ahead of his
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: time because they didn't use it that way.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: What do you mean? He was just ahead of his
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: time because they didn't know how to use quarterbacks that
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: could run as well as they do now.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Because the philosophy was to.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: Move the ball down the field methodically by throwing it.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: You just proved my point.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I'm telling you that that was how
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: those types of guys play. I don't understand how you
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: don't understand the playing style thing. Like some guys are
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: good shooters. Some guys are good at driving to the hoop.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Some guys throw gas in baseball. Some guys like Sonny
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Gray have to win with like smarts and win with
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: off speed.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Eddie house lights out three point shooter. We would both
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: agree on that. Yeah. Why wasn't he taking 10 threes
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: a game?
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: He was taking a lot more threes for his time
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: than everybody else. Because the overall philosophy was different. Alex,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: what you're asking people to do, and then we have
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: to wrap it up, even though this is good. What
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: you're asking Eddie House to do is drive to the
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: hoop all the time and finish at the rim. That's
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: what you're expecting.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: Him to do. The overall philosophy, the way coaches approach
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: the sport has changed. I think maybe the skill sets
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: of the quarterbacks helped them do it. I think if
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: you didn't have these athletic quarterbacks, I don't know. But
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: the overall coaching philosophy, what offensive coach's value has changed?
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: We are saying the same thing differently, and I think
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: it's funny. Key matchups, Greg Russo against Morgan Moses, Ed
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: Oliver and Deion Walker against the Patriots' interior offensive line,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: whoever the heck is covering Dalton Kincaid. That's what I got.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: I wish that we had more time. I know we
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: got to wrap it up, guys. All right. Patriots Unfiltered
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: is coming up at 11. We'll see you then.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Deuce. Thanks for tuning into the show.
• 58:23
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• 58:25
  Speaker 6: like us wherever you get your podcasts, like Apple Podcasts
• 58:27
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• 58:29
  Speaker 6: New England Patriots YouTube channel to see this show and
• 58:32
  Speaker 6: everything else that we do here at the Patriots.
• 58:33
  Speaker 8: Thanks a lot.