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History of the Trail of Tears, Part II · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know from house Stuff Works
0:04
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
0:13
Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's over there.
0:17
Speaker 1: And this is part two of the Trail of Tears,
0:20
Speaker 1: which we already did part one. If you haven't heard that,
0:23
Speaker 1: I would strongly recommend you go listen to that one first. Yes, uh,
0:27
Speaker 1: and just a fifteen second recap of part one. Um,
0:31
Speaker 1: we earned eighteen thirty roughly, and uh, America is getting
0:37
Speaker 1: along great with Native Americans and they say, why don't
0:40
Speaker 1: we all just live together and we can all just
0:41
Speaker 1: share wealth the end. Oh wait, that's not what was
0:45
Speaker 1: happening at all. No Americans wanted more land Indians headland.
0:50
Speaker 1: Americans felt that the Indians weren't putting it to good
0:53
Speaker 1: enough use and used that to morally justify forcing them
0:56
Speaker 1: to leave their land. That's right in the forum officially
1:01
Speaker 1: of the eighteen thirty Removal Act. And uh, that's where
1:05
Speaker 1: we pick up in the government said, you know what,
1:08
Speaker 1: let's start off with future podcaster Chuck Bryant's tribe, the
1:14
Speaker 1: Choco Tall. Are you Choco Tall? I have very uh
1:18
Speaker 1: negligible amount of chocodall as long as it's not negligent. No.
1:24
Speaker 1: In fact, I'm not exactly sure how much, but I
1:26
Speaker 1: know my uh we but I think my dad did
1:29
Speaker 1: my family tree at one point and I got some
1:31
Speaker 1: chocd on me. I love Choctaw. Yeah, that's great. So
1:34
Speaker 1: they picked the Choctall because they said, um, well they're
1:39
Speaker 1: pretty friendly and we think this can be a good
1:42
Speaker 1: um I mean, was it sort of a proof of concept?
1:44
Speaker 1: That's what I how this could work. They said, how
1:47
Speaker 1: about you guys go first? And the Choctaw said, okay, fine,
1:51
Speaker 1: we'll sign this. We'll sign this treaty where we're going
1:54
Speaker 1: to seed all of our land east of the Mississippi
1:58
Speaker 1: to the federal government and in exchange, we're going to
2:02
Speaker 1: get a sizeable amount of land in this new Indian
2:05
Speaker 1: territory what you guys will later call Oklahoma. And the
2:10
Speaker 1: Choctaw again, they they went largely willingly, even though they
2:16
Speaker 1: were split internally, like all the tribes were to some degree, right,
2:20
Speaker 1: but the the there were and there were three divisions.
2:23
Speaker 1: In the Eastern division, which was led by Chief Mushila
2:26
Speaker 1: tobi Uh. He basically said, you know what, we're not
2:30
Speaker 1: gonna win this war. Let's just we'll just sign this treaty.
2:34
Speaker 1: So he negotiated the treaty, and the Choctaw moved, and
2:38
Speaker 1: as they were moving, they they the whole thing was
2:41
Speaker 1: carried out, The whole Indian removal process was carried out
2:45
Speaker 1: by the War Department, which in and of itself says something.
2:48
Speaker 1: The fact that it's being carried out by federal soldiers
2:52
Speaker 1: with guns and bayonets, um, rather than say, some other
2:56
Speaker 1: civilian department. That in and of itself says a lot. Right,
2:59
Speaker 1: that's going to form a certain type of um tension
3:05
Speaker 1: to the whole thing. Yeah, it reminds me of the
3:07
Speaker 1: great movie. Uh, Doctor Strangelove. There's no fighting in the
3:11
Speaker 1: war room. It's one of the best lines from that movie.
3:15
Speaker 1: So the Choctaw are going. Some of them said no,
3:18
Speaker 1: I'm not going, and they were shackled and bound and
3:20
Speaker 1: were forced to undertake this journey. Um. I think if
3:25
Speaker 1: you if you look at the the trail that the
3:29
Speaker 1: Cherokees took, I think it was like miles for them.
3:34
Speaker 1: They were coming from the Carolinas and Georgia by way
3:37
Speaker 1: of Middle Tennessee. I think. But the choctawer we're coming
3:42
Speaker 1: from Mississippi and Alabama. It may have been a little shorter,
3:44
Speaker 1: but regardless, the Choctaw were forced to march Um with
3:49
Speaker 1: very little supplies, with very little care taken to prevent
3:52
Speaker 1: them from dying, Um for several hundred, if not a
3:55
Speaker 1: thousand miles out of their homelands to this new Indian
3:59
Speaker 1: terror tory, and a lot of them did die on
4:01
Speaker 1: the way. Yeah, And I get the feeling that the
4:04
Speaker 1: you know, the ones dying were like the attitude as well,
4:08
Speaker 1: that's just fewer people we have to worry about. That
4:11
Speaker 1: is very astute. I think that that is kind of
4:14
Speaker 1: the impression that it was kind of like you're you're lucky,
4:18
Speaker 1: we're letting any of you move anyway and not just
4:20
Speaker 1: exterminating all of you. Right, and again, like I pointed
4:23
Speaker 1: out in the last episode, um, there was I think
4:27
Speaker 1: in this other attitude that like, well, I mean, you're
4:30
Speaker 1: you're American Indians. You can just it doesn't matter where
4:33
Speaker 1: you're from. You can get along out there, Like it
4:35
Speaker 1: doesn't matter that you're coming from the lush, green uh
4:39
Speaker 1: southeastern what would become United States and moving out to
4:42
Speaker 1: the Great Plains, which you know nothing about you don't
4:44
Speaker 1: know how to succeed their farm there. Necessarily, they probably
4:47
Speaker 1: could have figured it out because they had done so
4:50
Speaker 1: all across North America for you know, eons, but um,
4:54
Speaker 1: it was they weren't set up for success in any
4:57
Speaker 1: way being relocated. So Choctaw died along the way out
5:04
Speaker 1: of twenty thousand died in three waves of migration, and
5:09
Speaker 1: the first group to arrive in Oklahoma found some reporters
5:13
Speaker 1: waiting there and um, there too already, Yeah, there were
5:17
Speaker 1: settlers and when the I'm sure when the eastern tribes
5:20
Speaker 1: got there, they were like white people, know you promised, Um,
5:27
Speaker 1: But when the when the first group, the first of
5:30
Speaker 1: the three Choctall waves, and from what I understand, they
5:32
Speaker 1: were the first ones to move under the Indian Removal Act.
5:35
Speaker 1: But when they got there, there were some reporters there
5:37
Speaker 1: that said, you know, how, how was it basically one
5:41
Speaker 1: scale of one to ten. And one of the Choctaw
5:44
Speaker 1: chiefs who who it was exactly was lost to history
5:47
Speaker 1: was either Chief Nitta Catchy or Chief John Harkins, and
5:51
Speaker 1: one who described it as a trail of tears and death.
5:55
Speaker 1: And that's where the Trail of Cheers ultimately got it's
5:57
Speaker 1: its name from was an an unknown Choctaw chief who
6:03
Speaker 1: were the was among the first to arrive in Oklahoma. Yeah,
6:07
Speaker 1: and you'll hear um a lot of names in this
6:11
Speaker 1: part two, like Chief John Harkins, and you're like, wait
6:14
Speaker 1: a minute, that doesn't sound like a very American Indian name.
6:17
Speaker 1: And these are just great examples of how unculturated some
6:21
Speaker 1: of these factions of tribes had become like they were
6:24
Speaker 1: speaking English, they were had English names, and um still
6:29
Speaker 1: being removed. Yeah and again traded extensively white people. A
6:33
Speaker 1: lot of them were Christian Um, some of them fought
6:36
Speaker 1: alongside the federal government, and yes, they were still being removed,
6:40
Speaker 1: all right, So the Trail of Tears was kind of
6:43
Speaker 1: coined there, although it wouldn't like you said earlier in
6:46
Speaker 1: the first episode that the the the Cherokee Trail of
6:50
Speaker 1: Tears is sort of what most people think about is
6:52
Speaker 1: the official Trail of tears. But regardless, this reporter got this,
6:56
Speaker 1: blasted it out, and the whole world sort of is
7:00
Speaker 1: now privy to these stories of this atrocity going on.
7:03
Speaker 1: So you might think, well, they probably just tried this
7:06
Speaker 1: once then and got so much blowback that they said Yeah,
7:10
Speaker 1: this is does not look good for us. Um, so
7:12
Speaker 1: we should kind of stop it. Yeah that's not how
7:14
Speaker 1: it went. No, not how it went at all. No,
7:16
Speaker 1: the the whole process ground on. I think there was
7:19
Speaker 1: kind of a probably a sense among the pro removal
7:24
Speaker 1: factions in Washington saying like just died out of its
7:30
Speaker 1: way less than we thought it was gonna be, you know,
7:32
Speaker 1: an acceptable amount of casualties. Basically, so um and um.
7:36
Speaker 1: With with the white Americans as well, the idea was
7:41
Speaker 1: ultimately Indians are gonna be free from encroachment by whites
7:46
Speaker 1: out there in Indian territory. The War Department is tasked
7:49
Speaker 1: with making sure that happens. The War Department did not
7:52
Speaker 1: do that, and in fact, when they got out west,
7:55
Speaker 1: they found the same type of harassment and encroachment that
7:59
Speaker 1: that they experienced east of the Mississippi as well. Well,
8:04
Speaker 1: maybe worse too, because not only were white settlers west
8:06
Speaker 1: of the Mississippi encroaching, they, like we talked about in
8:10
Speaker 1: episode one, there were already plains Indians. They were like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
8:13
Speaker 1: whoa who who are these people? You know, I know
8:16
Speaker 1: they look like us, but we're different, you know. And
8:20
Speaker 1: the White settlers, like what are you talking about, Like,
8:22
Speaker 1: we're encroaching on your land too, So it was it
8:25
Speaker 1: was not friendly in any way, you know, this arrival. Plus,
8:30
Speaker 1: also after the War of eighteen twelve and um the
8:33
Speaker 1: Seminole Wars, the US didn't have any European powers on
8:38
Speaker 1: the continent any longer, which meant two things. One, the
8:42
Speaker 1: Indians weren't a useful buffer between the US and say
8:45
Speaker 1: the British, they didn't need. They weren't needed in that
8:49
Speaker 1: respect any longer, which put them in a very shaky position.
8:53
Speaker 1: And then secondly, there was no European power that the
8:57
Speaker 1: Indians could ally themselves with to check a Erican aggression
9:01
Speaker 1: against they had done with both Britain and Spain. So
9:03
Speaker 1: after that and during this Indian removal process, part of
9:07
Speaker 1: the reason why it was so rough and brutal was
9:11
Speaker 1: because there was no reason outside of anything moral, to
9:16
Speaker 1: check American aggression in this process. Yeah, so things got worse.
9:21
Speaker 1: A bad situation got worse. Right here in Georgia again
9:25
Speaker 1: with the Cherokee Nation, they held these lotteries between eighteen
9:29
Speaker 1: o five and eighteen thirty two. They had seven lotteries
9:32
Speaker 1: basically where you could Uh, a white male could, if
9:36
Speaker 1: you're over eighteen years old, could buy a lottery ticket
9:39
Speaker 1: for four bucks about a hundred dollars today, and that
9:42
Speaker 1: would give you a chance if you were picked to
9:44
Speaker 1: buy a hundred and sixty acre tract of land that
9:48
Speaker 1: was not theirs, right, That kind of says it all. Yeah,
9:52
Speaker 1: And those those a lot of those parcels still exist.
9:55
Speaker 1: You can trace the the land parcels back to the
9:59
Speaker 1: original lot today. We call them subdivisions. Yeah, you know, yeah,
10:04
Speaker 1: he said about three quarters of these parcels in Georgia
10:07
Speaker 1: you can still trace backs. That's amazing. So the Chickasaws
10:10
Speaker 1: were up next, Chuck. They were sick of being harassed
10:13
Speaker 1: and um by white settlers and said, we're out of here.
10:17
Speaker 1: We'll we'll we'll take the government up on its offer.
10:20
Speaker 1: Here are all of our lands east of the Mississippi.
10:23
Speaker 1: We'll take some land west of the Mississippi. And the
10:26
Speaker 1: government said, great, here's a treaty, let's sign it. Uh,
10:30
Speaker 1: slape each other on the back, maybe have a cigar,
10:32
Speaker 1: and that's that. And the Choctawk got or the Chickasaw
10:36
Speaker 1: got out to Indian Territory and found they didn't have
10:40
Speaker 1: any land out there. Yeah, they had to negotiate with
10:43
Speaker 1: the Choctaw who'd gotten out there a year or two earlier,
10:46
Speaker 1: to buy some of their land. Talk about a raw deal, Well,
10:50
Speaker 1: it is a raw deal. And it's interesting that some
10:52
Speaker 1: of the um I mean, I don't think word was
10:56
Speaker 1: getting back, but you could see a little bit of
10:58
Speaker 1: the wisdom of well, hey, the writings on the wall,
11:02
Speaker 1: So at least we can get out there early and
11:04
Speaker 1: claim some land of our own. And that's what happened.
11:07
Speaker 1: You know, the Choctaw had claimed this land, and then
11:09
Speaker 1: the Chickasaw had to come out there and deal with them.
11:11
Speaker 1: Well I think I think no, I think they they
11:14
Speaker 1: had been given actual territory by the federal government, but
11:19
Speaker 1: they they it didn't pan out. They hadn't actually gotten
11:23
Speaker 1: that land, right, I mean, it wasn't, like you said,
11:25
Speaker 1: the War Department just sort of wash their hands of it.
11:27
Speaker 1: All right. So then you also have the Seminole as well, Right,
11:31
Speaker 1: the Seminal took a different tax. They they were definitely
11:35
Speaker 1: the ones that were the biggest thorn in the side
11:38
Speaker 1: of the Indian removal process. Yeah. Sure, So you remember
11:41
Speaker 1: back in I think eighteen seventeen, eighteen eighteen, Andrew Jackson
11:45
Speaker 1: fought the First Seminole War. He did not win the
11:47
Speaker 1: first Seminole War. The Seminoles were still there, and although
11:52
Speaker 1: he did get a lot of land from the Spanish
11:54
Speaker 1: in Florida, the Seminoles ultimately came out on top. The
11:57
Speaker 1: Second Seminole War took play when the UM when the Seminoles,
12:02
Speaker 1: a very small faction that were prepared to leave, went
12:07
Speaker 1: against the wishes of the tribe in general, and negotiated
12:10
Speaker 1: secretly with the federal government to see the land and
12:14
Speaker 1: the seminal. The rest of the Seminole tried said no,
12:17
Speaker 1: they didn't represent us, we're not leaving in. The federal
12:20
Speaker 1: government said, oh yeah, well we're gonna come down and invade.
12:23
Speaker 1: And the Second Seminole War UM went from eighteen thirty
12:27
Speaker 1: five to eighteen forty two. Yeah, man, seven years, that's tough. Yeah.
12:31
Speaker 1: Thousands and thousands of people died. It was a war,
12:34
Speaker 1: straight up war between the Seminoles and the federal government.
12:37
Speaker 1: And again the Seminoles won. Yeah. You said here that
12:41
Speaker 1: the UM in today's dollars, the government spent about two
12:45
Speaker 1: billion dollars fighting the war. About a billion billion dollars. Okay, yeah,
12:51
Speaker 1: sorry about that. Um So, that's number two. The Third
12:54
Speaker 1: Seminal War was from eighteen fifty five to eighteen fifty eight,
12:58
Speaker 1: and that was the last attempt of the US to
13:01
Speaker 1: say please get out of here all, not please, but
13:05
Speaker 1: get the heck out of here. And that failed. And
13:08
Speaker 1: so eventually the Seminole got paid pretty good money the
13:12
Speaker 1: holdouts there for their land. So you know, I mean,
13:16
Speaker 1: if there's a success story and all of this the Seminoles,
13:21
Speaker 1: but yeah, it it also resulted in the deaths of
13:24
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Yeah. Uh So this next part
13:28
Speaker 1: is sort of sets up to play out over kind
13:32
Speaker 1: of the remaining years of the Trail of Tears. And
13:34
Speaker 1: there are important names in here that, um you should
13:37
Speaker 1: take note of, So get out your pad and pen exactly,
13:41
Speaker 1: don't literally take a note, especially if you're driving. Um So,
13:46
Speaker 1: the Cherokee they they sort of did a similar thing
13:48
Speaker 1: that the Seminoles did, when a small group of people
13:52
Speaker 1: make this treaty that the rest of the tribe doesn't
13:55
Speaker 1: necessarily agree with. And this time it was called the
13:58
Speaker 1: Treaty of New Ecatoa. I thought it was Atkatoa at
14:02
Speaker 1: first two but then I stopped and realized, I think
14:05
Speaker 1: it's etoa Eta. I think, so all right, we'll go
14:08
Speaker 1: with Echtowa. I like that better anyway. Uh So, they
14:11
Speaker 1: were about twenty Cherokee leaders that um and the names
14:16
Speaker 1: they were headed at this point at Chief John Ridge,
14:20
Speaker 1: his brother Major Ridge. Uh stand, how do you pronounced
14:24
Speaker 1: that last name? I think W A t I E.
14:28
Speaker 1: And alias Buddha no um. And again a lot of
14:32
Speaker 1: these names are very Anglo because they had assimilated at
14:35
Speaker 1: this point, and Glow or French. Well, yeah, some of
14:38
Speaker 1: them were Budinos. I think definitely French. Um. So they
14:44
Speaker 1: were about twenty of them and all though, and those
14:46
Speaker 1: were the most notable, and they became known as the
14:49
Speaker 1: Treaty Party. They were the ones that met with federal
14:50
Speaker 1: agents negotiated this treaty where they would give up this
14:53
Speaker 1: land in exchange for you know, kind of the same
14:56
Speaker 1: old story, the cycle that happens again and again and again.
14:59
Speaker 1: So imagine if you were a Cherokee and you were like,
15:02
Speaker 1: we're not leaving, We're staying. We're gonna fight this in
15:04
Speaker 1: the courts. We're gonna, you know, take our guns to
15:07
Speaker 1: him if we have to. We're not leaving our land.
15:10
Speaker 1: And you find out that twenty twenty Cherokee leaders went
15:14
Speaker 1: secretly behind the back of the rest of the Cherokee Nation,
15:17
Speaker 1: the other eighteen thousand members of the did the Eastern
15:21
Speaker 1: Tribe and secretly negotiated away that land that you had
15:25
Speaker 1: just vowed to protect and never leave. There's a lot
15:28
Speaker 1: of anger, yes. So the ones that decided that they
15:32
Speaker 1: were going to stay were led by Chief John Ross.
15:36
Speaker 1: He was a very powerful chief um in the East
15:40
Speaker 1: for decades. He had been negotiating to that point fairly
15:45
Speaker 1: successfully with the federal government, saying, okay, if you're going
15:50
Speaker 1: to if you're gonna take this land, we're gonna sell
15:52
Speaker 1: it to you, and you're gonna pay through the nose
15:54
Speaker 1: for it. Even though they still gave him a pretty
15:58
Speaker 1: fair price, like four dollars and something per acre when
16:01
Speaker 1: the going rate was about fifteen. But this was this
16:05
Speaker 1: was much more money twenty million dollars I think in
16:08
Speaker 1: in eighteen thirties dollars than um then the government was
16:14
Speaker 1: prepared to spend, which was zero. It was no, you
16:18
Speaker 1: give us the land and you you can move out
16:20
Speaker 1: west instead. So they were negotiating a treaty or John
16:24
Speaker 1: John Ross was with the blessing of the Cherokee Council
16:28
Speaker 1: and the Cherokee people as a whole. And one of
16:31
Speaker 1: the other um parts of that that negotiation was that anyone,
16:36
Speaker 1: any Cherokee would be recognized as a full U. S. Citizen. Yeah,
16:41
Speaker 1: it sounds like he had like a couple of different
16:43
Speaker 1: versions of the offer. One as you can have all
16:45
Speaker 1: this land for twenty million bucks, or you can have
16:49
Speaker 1: some of it for four million bucks, let us keep
16:51
Speaker 1: some and whoever wants to stay can become full citizens
16:55
Speaker 1: with all the rights afforded to a full citizen. So
16:57
Speaker 1: he was actually in the middle making what was, you know,
17:02
Speaker 1: not a bad deal for his people, know, and again
17:04
Speaker 1: and he had the full the blessing of the Cherokee
17:06
Speaker 1: Council to do this. Yeah, And did he not know
17:09
Speaker 1: at all that the Treaty Party was doing this from
17:12
Speaker 1: what I understand, No, it was a secret, secret negotiation
17:15
Speaker 1: and they were happening concurrently. So the the John Ross
17:20
Speaker 1: faction was negotiating for about four bucks an acre, the
17:23
Speaker 1: the Treaty Party negotiated for about a dollar five and acre,
17:27
Speaker 1: or about five percent of the value of the land.
17:30
Speaker 1: And they the government said we'll go with you. Guys.
17:34
Speaker 1: They signed the treaty. Uh. The Cherokee when they found
17:38
Speaker 1: out about it, um, basically signed a petition saying that's
17:43
Speaker 1: an illegal treaty. We don't we don't condone that. They
17:46
Speaker 1: got something like seventeen thousand signatures. They're only eighteen thousand
17:50
Speaker 1: Cherokees in the East. And the Senate still ratified it. Yeah,
17:55
Speaker 1: they said, that's just very Let's see all those names,
17:58
Speaker 1: it's very impressive. Uh, let me rip that into shoot
18:00
Speaker 1: two pieces, and we're gonna ratify this. Uh, and it
18:04
Speaker 1: becomes a federal statute. And um, this kind of is
18:08
Speaker 1: what really set everything in motion for the final removal
18:11
Speaker 1: of the Cherokee. Yeah, you Cherokee now have three years
18:14
Speaker 1: to vacate your land. And uh, if you don't, well
18:19
Speaker 1: let's just say you should vacate your land within three years.
18:21
Speaker 1: Is what the federal government said. But they still, for
18:24
Speaker 1: the most part, didn't leave. And we'll take a break
18:26
Speaker 1: here and we'll talk about that process after this. All right,
18:52
Speaker 1: So we're back. Um, the treaty had been signed in
18:57
Speaker 1: against the will of the Cherokee people. They had three
19:00
Speaker 1: years to get I was gonna say, get out of Dodge,
19:02
Speaker 1: But man, why do I keep saying that? Get out
19:05
Speaker 1: of Cherokee? And then I was about to say they
19:08
Speaker 1: had three years to play ball, but they'd be like,
19:10
Speaker 1: what does playball mean? Well, it hadn't been invinited yet either,
19:15
Speaker 1: Get with the chuck. Three years later, only two thousand
19:19
Speaker 1: of the eighteen thousand had migrated west. And so President
19:24
Speaker 1: Martin van Buren, who's as we saw earlier, kind of
19:28
Speaker 1: just continue to carry out Jackson's policies. Yeah. Jackson was
19:30
Speaker 1: a two term president, and the Van Buren presidency just
19:34
Speaker 1: made it twelve basically, yeah, twelve years. Yeah. Uh. He said,
19:38
Speaker 1: all right, well, here's what we're gonna do, because Jackson
19:42
Speaker 1: is telling me I have to do this. We're gonna
19:44
Speaker 1: send in federal troops and you hold outs in Georgia
19:47
Speaker 1: and the Carolina's um. We have a general named Winfield Scott.
19:51
Speaker 1: He's gonna bring about seven thousand men in there, and
19:55
Speaker 1: he's going to ask you nicely to leave, and that
19:57
Speaker 1: he doesn't want bloodshed all while tapping on his side,
20:01
Speaker 1: are on us hip exactly, which is basically what happened. Yeah,
20:04
Speaker 1: he had a he had a quote here you want
20:05
Speaker 1: to read that he read a statement he said, the
20:08
Speaker 1: blood of the white man or the blood of the
20:10
Speaker 1: red man, may be spilt, and if spilt, however accidentally,
20:14
Speaker 1: it may be impossible for the discreet and humane among
20:16
Speaker 1: you or among us, to prevent a general war and carnage.
20:20
Speaker 1: Think of this, my Cherokee brethren. I am an old
20:23
Speaker 1: warrior and have been present at many a scene of slaughter.
20:26
Speaker 1: But spare me. I beseech you the horror of witnessing
20:30
Speaker 1: the destruction of the Cherokees. In other words, don't make
20:34
Speaker 1: me kill all of you. And let's think about what
20:37
Speaker 1: we will. We have seven thousand men behind me. Yeah,
20:41
Speaker 1: and think about where this came from. Like this was
20:44
Speaker 1: we want your land. You have to leave. That's that.
20:49
Speaker 1: And now it's gotten to the point where we're going
20:51
Speaker 1: to kill you if you don't leave. And when they
20:56
Speaker 1: came and forced them to leave finally, uh and eighteen
21:01
Speaker 1: thirty eight, at gunpoint, they said you have to leave now.
21:06
Speaker 1: And and it was not gather your stuff and leave,
21:09
Speaker 1: it was stop what you're doing and leave. Most of
21:13
Speaker 1: the people um were not able to get their supplies together.
21:18
Speaker 1: Some were able to grab blankets, A lot of them
21:21
Speaker 1: were barefoot um and they were herded out of their houses. Yeah,
21:25
Speaker 1: you said there was one case where there were these uh,
21:28
Speaker 1: there was a small child who had died. Uh at
21:30
Speaker 1: the night that they were preparing for burial, and they
21:34
Speaker 1: turn guns on them and said no, no no, no, you
21:36
Speaker 1: can't even do that. Get out, And they had to
21:38
Speaker 1: leave this body of a child behind by itself. Plus
21:43
Speaker 1: they also had to suffer the um in dignity of
21:46
Speaker 1: watching white settlers loot their houses as they were being
21:49
Speaker 1: marched away. Oh yeah, the people that have been encroaching
21:52
Speaker 1: all these years had free reign at this point. It
21:54
Speaker 1: was open season. So the the the federal government had
21:57
Speaker 1: built thirty one posts around the Caroline and is in Georgia,
22:00
Speaker 1: which were basically like temporary holding stations before the forced
22:04
Speaker 1: migration began. And like a third of the people who
22:08
Speaker 1: died during this um removal process among the Cherokee died
22:13
Speaker 1: in these posts. They died of exposure, they died of hunger.
22:17
Speaker 1: There's like disease ripping through these things. It was just
22:20
Speaker 1: a terrible situation even just to start. Yeah, and you know,
22:25
Speaker 1: as far as what's going on today, regardless of how
22:27
Speaker 1: you feel about deportation, just look into deportation facilities. Are
22:33
Speaker 1: they pretty bad? I mean it wasn't you know, people
22:38
Speaker 1: weren't dying of aren't dying of cholera. But just go
22:42
Speaker 1: look it up. Make your own judgment. I'll say that, Okay,
22:45
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too political here. Um, all right,
22:48
Speaker 1: So there are a couple of routes here that the
22:50
Speaker 1: Cherokee took to get to Oklahoma. Basically, you could go
22:54
Speaker 1: on a boat or you can walk. Right, Maybe if
22:58
Speaker 1: you're old and frail, you might be in a wagon,
23:02
Speaker 1: but basically you're gonna walk. Yeah. The draft animals were
23:05
Speaker 1: for carrying supplies. The wagons were just for the elderly
23:09
Speaker 1: and maybe like little little little kids. Um, but yeah,
23:13
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to walk in Again. A lot of
23:15
Speaker 1: these people were removed from their homes with and not
23:17
Speaker 1: giving even enough time to get their shoes. So they
23:20
Speaker 1: were walking barefoot twelve miles. Yeah, and I think about
23:24
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand by foot in about three thousand. We're fortunate enough,
23:28
Speaker 1: I guess you could say, to go by steamship. Yeah.
23:31
Speaker 1: And we should say also that the experience of this
23:34
Speaker 1: is not it's not the same for everybody. Right, there
23:37
Speaker 1: were plenty of very wealthy Cherokees who who arranged for
23:41
Speaker 1: their own passage west, including one guy, rich Joe Van.
23:47
Speaker 1: He was I don't know where he made his money,
23:49
Speaker 1: but he was a wealthy Cherokee who um traveled privately
23:54
Speaker 1: on his own steamship. Yeah. I mean, if he owned
23:57
Speaker 1: a steamship, he's doing pretty well. Sure. Uh. And again
24:00
Speaker 1: you point out in the article this is it's just
24:03
Speaker 1: another reminder of how uncultured some of these Native Americans
24:06
Speaker 1: have become at this point. And they were still like, now, man,
24:10
Speaker 1: you're ostensibly living like a wealthy white person, but you're
24:15
Speaker 1: still Indians. To get out right them again, the overlooked
24:21
Speaker 1: group in this too seems to be the African American slaves. Um. Again,
24:27
Speaker 1: some Cherokee's owned slaves, and the slaves were made to
24:31
Speaker 1: to go on the Trail of Tears with them as well. Yeah,
24:34
Speaker 1: or forced to. Um, you know. The ones who didn't
24:37
Speaker 1: have to go west were forced to relocate from all
24:39
Speaker 1: over the colonies, largely down south to support the cotton industry.
24:44
Speaker 1: That was a big deal. Um. So this land that
24:47
Speaker 1: opened up immediately became like cotton land, and it created
24:53
Speaker 1: the biggest agricultural economy in the world. The American South
24:57
Speaker 1: had the biggest, largest, most robust agricultural economy in the
25:01
Speaker 1: entire world during this period as a result of this
25:04
Speaker 1: land opening up. But part of that required this slave
25:07
Speaker 1: labor and so um, the slave trade increased dramatically during
25:13
Speaker 1: this period as well. So the the forced removal of
25:17
Speaker 1: Native Americans led to a forced diaspora of African Americans
25:22
Speaker 1: into that land that had just been vacated where they
25:25
Speaker 1: were forced to work, which is, Yeah, it's an overlooked
25:28
Speaker 1: part of history for sure. I mean, we all understand,
25:32
Speaker 1: we know about slavery, and we know that it happened,
25:35
Speaker 1: and that was in the South or whatever. But this
25:37
Speaker 1: this period was where it just steps up exponentially as
25:42
Speaker 1: a direct result of the forced removal. Yeah, I mean,
25:46
Speaker 1: like hundreds of thousands of acres of land all of
25:49
Speaker 1: a sudden that needed tending to um, millions of acres,
25:53
Speaker 1: millions of millions of acres, Yeah, which is a lot
25:56
Speaker 1: of hundreds of thousands. Be like does of acres about
26:02
Speaker 1: forty million dozen? Uh So back to the the westward
26:08
Speaker 1: trail of tears Um. This first migration was in the
26:13
Speaker 1: summer of eight and I don't know if anyone out
26:17
Speaker 1: there has ever walked from Georgia to Oklahoma at all.
26:22
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's like a thing hike the Trail
26:26
Speaker 1: of tears. Uh jeez, I don't know. I bet somebody does,
26:30
Speaker 1: probably like in an awareness campaign or something. I could
26:34
Speaker 1: see that. Um, so that it was in the summer heat.
26:37
Speaker 1: It's it's not forgiving in any way. UM. A lot
26:42
Speaker 1: of people died on that first wave. And I don't
26:44
Speaker 1: think we mentioned that. Chief John Ross, he was the
26:47
Speaker 1: last of the Cherokee of his group to to leave,
26:51
Speaker 1: to pick up and leave. Yeah, the federal government was
26:55
Speaker 1: doing such a disastrously bad job of overseeing this migration
27:00
Speaker 1: that John Ross went to General Scott and said, please,
27:04
Speaker 1: if we're going to migrate, let me oversee the remaining
27:08
Speaker 1: migrations because you guys are botching this. And Scott actually said, okay, fine,
27:14
Speaker 1: you can oversee the migrations. Despite Andrew Jackson angrily writing like, no,
27:20
Speaker 1: there's a terrible idea, Do not do that. You can't
27:22
Speaker 1: let the Indians oversee their own forced migration, you dummy,
27:26
Speaker 1: Scott still did it. He stood up to the political pressure. Um.
27:30
Speaker 1: And so the Trail of Tears historically, what you think
27:33
Speaker 1: of the official trail of tears started at the Rattlesnake
27:38
Speaker 1: in Rattlesnake Springs, Tennessee, which is where he said, Is
27:42
Speaker 1: that middle Tennessee. I think it's middle like around Memphis.
27:45
Speaker 1: Maybe is in Memphis in the center, Memphis, West Nashville.
27:49
Speaker 1: Then I think it's around Nashville. Okay, Tennessee is uh
27:52
Speaker 1: you know, my family's from Tennessee and your chop taw
27:57
Speaker 1: Well Mississippi, uh, before Tennessee, but mainly from West Tennessee,
28:03
Speaker 1: which has got probably more in common with Arkansas than
28:08
Speaker 1: like Nashville. You're like, maybe you've heard of my cousin.
28:12
Speaker 1: He was falsely accused of killing some boys back in
28:14
Speaker 1: the eighties. Oh, the Memphis Three. No, not a cousin,
28:18
Speaker 1: but they were in Arkansas, West Memphis, Arkansas. It's confusing. Um,
28:24
Speaker 1: it's not that confused. Well, I mean West Memphis, Arkansas.
28:28
Speaker 1: You hear Memphis, you generally think of Tennessee. That's the
28:30
Speaker 1: east Memphis. We should do a show in Elvis, are we? Well,
28:37
Speaker 1: we do one on grace Land. Yeah. And I think
28:39
Speaker 1: that's when I pointed out to that God Bless my
28:42
Speaker 1: dear departed grandmother, but she was of that camp like, oh, Elvis,
28:46
Speaker 1: he's poor thing. He just his doctors killed him. And
28:49
Speaker 1: I was like grandmother. He was a big fat junkie,
28:52
Speaker 1: died on the toilet. Made some great music though. Um.
28:57
Speaker 1: All right, So Elvis Aside Rattlesnake Springs, Tennessee is where
29:00
Speaker 1: the Trail of Tears, officially the route kind of began. Um.
29:04
Speaker 1: And it went through And this is something that I
29:07
Speaker 1: never considered it went or you know it. Let's take
29:09
Speaker 1: a break. That's a good little teaser there, and we'll
29:12
Speaker 1: talk about, um, the impact it had on these towns
29:16
Speaker 1: that it went through. All right. I teased that I
29:41
Speaker 1: had never realized this. But um, the old story you
29:45
Speaker 1: heard about white people lining up in their towns to
29:48
Speaker 1: watch the Native Americans passed through and shed a tear
29:51
Speaker 1: for them, which is bunk. Or maybe one person did,
29:54
Speaker 1: probably yeah, Um, but it had a big like you
29:59
Speaker 1: can't move eighteen thousand people, and that was just the
30:02
Speaker 1: Cherokee without um. You know, there's a big economic boon
30:07
Speaker 1: that can happen when you go through a town of
30:09
Speaker 1: that many with that many people. And they went through many, many,
30:12
Speaker 1: many towns. The government spent two and a half two
30:16
Speaker 1: point one five billion dollars in two thousand fifteen money, um,
30:21
Speaker 1: moving the Cherokee and all of that was for things
30:24
Speaker 1: like supplies and stuff like that. So the entire um,
30:29
Speaker 1: I think Arkansas, I think it was Arkansas. Their entire
30:34
Speaker 1: agricultural economy shifted from the cotton boom that was going
30:37
Speaker 1: on in the rest of the South to growing corn
30:40
Speaker 1: strictly to supply the federal government for this migration. Yeah.
30:46
Speaker 1: The Trail of Tears itself had its own economy, right,
30:49
Speaker 1: it's own moving portable economy. Yeah. A lot of cottage
30:53
Speaker 1: industries grew up where um, you know, peep townspeople would
30:58
Speaker 1: get into like porting, ferrying, helping carry supplies, or moving
31:03
Speaker 1: people across bodies of water. Um. Some were exploitive, not surprisingly,
31:08
Speaker 1: Like there were people who said, well, this is my land,
31:11
Speaker 1: and I'm going to charge each of you a fee
31:12
Speaker 1: for crossing over it, and then an exit fee when
31:15
Speaker 1: you get to the other side kind of stuff, you know. Yeah,
31:18
Speaker 1: and some of the town's would, I guess, despite the
31:21
Speaker 1: fact that it would could have been a bit of
31:24
Speaker 1: a temporary economic boom, refused to even let it happen,
31:29
Speaker 1: Like you can't have passage through my town, even though
31:31
Speaker 1: it's easier on you. You got to go around this
31:35
Speaker 1: entire town. Yea cape gerro Doe. UM did that in Missouri.
31:38
Speaker 1: They said, it's way easier to cross the Mississippi through town,
31:43
Speaker 1: but there's another crossing two miles up and it's treacherous,
31:46
Speaker 1: but you've got to take that one. So some of
31:49
Speaker 1: this was documented by UM white soldiers who were overseeing.
31:53
Speaker 1: I guess from the War Department. Um, should we read
31:56
Speaker 1: a couple of these accounts? Well, yeah, I think we should.
31:59
Speaker 1: This one in particulars from John G. Burnett, who in
32:02
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety, as he was an old man dying, he
32:06
Speaker 1: was interviewed by a newspaper for his experiences because he
32:10
Speaker 1: had been a soldier along the trailer tears with the Cherokee.
32:13
Speaker 1: All right, I'll read one of these, Um. I saw
32:15
Speaker 1: the helpless Cherokees arrested and dragged from their homes and
32:18
Speaker 1: driven at the bayonet point into the stockades, and in
32:22
Speaker 1: the chill of a drizzling rain on an October morning,
32:25
Speaker 1: I saw them loaded like cattle or sheep in the
32:27
Speaker 1: six hundred and forty five wagons and started toward the west.
32:31
Speaker 1: One can never forget the sadness and solemnity of that morning.
32:35
Speaker 1: Chief John Ross led him prayer, and when the bugle
32:38
Speaker 1: sounded in the wagons started rolling. Many of the children
32:41
Speaker 1: rose to their feet and waved their little hands goodbye
32:44
Speaker 1: to their mountain homes, knowing they were leaving them forever.
32:47
Speaker 1: Many of these helpless people did not have blankets, and
32:50
Speaker 1: many of them have been driven from their home barefooted.
32:53
Speaker 1: On the morning of November seventeenth, we've encountered a terrific
32:56
Speaker 1: sleet and snowstorm with freezing temperatures. And from that day
33:00
Speaker 1: until we reached the end of the Fateful journey on
33:02
Speaker 1: March eighteen thirty nine, the sufferings of the Cherokees were awful.
33:06
Speaker 1: The trail of the exiles was a trail of death.
33:08
Speaker 1: They had to sleep in the wagons and on the
33:10
Speaker 1: ground without fire, and I have known as many as
33:12
Speaker 1: twenty two of them to die in one night of
33:14
Speaker 1: pneumonia due to ill treatment, cold and exposure. Among this
33:18
Speaker 1: number was the beautiful Christian wife of Chief John Ross.
33:22
Speaker 1: This noble hearted woman died of martyr to childhood, giving
33:25
Speaker 1: her only blanket for the protection of a sick child.
33:28
Speaker 1: She rode thinly clad the blinding sleet and snowstorm, developed pneumonia,
33:33
Speaker 1: and died in the still hours of a blique winter
33:35
Speaker 1: night with her head resting on Lieutenant Gregg's saddle blanket.
33:40
Speaker 1: So clearly some of the soldiers were kind of haunted
33:44
Speaker 1: with the task that they were given. Yeah, because this guy,
33:47
Speaker 1: John Brunette, was on the trail in eighteen thirty eight,
33:49
Speaker 1: this is eighteen ninety. He's still giving this impassioned like
33:51
Speaker 1: account of it, you know. Man, Um, there was another
33:55
Speaker 1: witness who's who estimated that the Cherokee buried fourteen or
33:59
Speaker 1: fifteen of a people at every stopping place. And this
34:03
Speaker 1: was along this mile trail, which they did about ten
34:07
Speaker 1: miles a day by foot. And as a result, about
34:10
Speaker 1: four thousand of the seven thousand, seventeen thousand Cherokee who
34:15
Speaker 1: uh moved during this migration died along the way. Yeah.
34:20
Speaker 1: And again, um, just like the cycle all Uh. When
34:25
Speaker 1: they got there, they were not met with open arms.
34:28
Speaker 1: Remember the old settlers that we talked about from the
34:31
Speaker 1: very beginning, the very first ones to go out west. Uh,
34:35
Speaker 1: they did not take kindly to their arrival. No, because
34:37
Speaker 1: remember they formed basically a different tribe of Cherokee out there. Yeah,
34:41
Speaker 1: like they were their own tribe that you know, I said,
34:45
Speaker 1: you know what, all bets are off is our land.
34:47
Speaker 1: So when they showed up, the Eastern Cherokees were like, yeah,
34:50
Speaker 1: but there's a lot more of us than there are
34:53
Speaker 1: of you guys. So we're we're in charge now. Yeah.
34:57
Speaker 1: And I think one of the more interesting things, you know,
35:00
Speaker 1: we mentioned when I said to take note with that
35:03
Speaker 1: new Achitoah Treaty with those twenty um, what was it
35:07
Speaker 1: twenty or so twenty leaders leaders that that signed this
35:10
Speaker 1: treaty against the will of John Ross. Those I mean
35:14
Speaker 1: that stuff was like in stone. Now, this faction that
35:18
Speaker 1: was created with that carried through for decades and decades
35:23
Speaker 1: and and and that same line carried over yeah out
35:27
Speaker 1: west as well. Right, So allegiances formed between the treaty
35:31
Speaker 1: party supporters and the John Ross supporters, and ultimately John
35:36
Speaker 1: Ross was able to consolidate power out there, and he
35:38
Speaker 1: became the chief of all of the Cherokees now that
35:43
Speaker 1: they were all out west, the the combined tribe. Yeah.
35:47
Speaker 1: And once once he consolidated power, he gave it a
35:50
Speaker 1: day or two and then he said, okay, it's time
35:52
Speaker 1: to have the treaty party members killed. Yeah. He he
35:55
Speaker 1: had vengeance on his mind for sure, So he dispatched. Uh.
35:59
Speaker 1: And one night on June nine, he dispatched some assassins. Um.
36:05
Speaker 1: They went and found the principal signers. We mentioned Major Ridge,
36:09
Speaker 1: his brother John Ridge, and Elias Budino. They all died
36:13
Speaker 1: that night, but stand Watti interestingly escaped. And I don't
36:19
Speaker 1: think we said you know, we said it. Um. That
36:21
Speaker 1: faction and that divide between the nation was going on
36:25
Speaker 1: for decades. It lasted into the Civil War, and the
36:28
Speaker 1: new Etchetowa supporters supported the South, the others opposed to
36:32
Speaker 1: the North. So the divide between the Union and the
36:35
Speaker 1: Confederacy also fell along that new etchetoa Treaty party and
36:40
Speaker 1: John Ross supporters line still and they fought each other
36:45
Speaker 1: as Confederate and Union soldiers. Yeah. And actually stand Watty
36:50
Speaker 1: became a general in the Confederacy. Yes, he survived the
36:53
Speaker 1: assassination attempt. Uh. He got out because he was warned
36:57
Speaker 1: by the Reverend Samuel H. Worcester maybe Worcestershire. Uh. And
37:04
Speaker 1: he was I think we mentioned him earlier. He was
37:06
Speaker 1: a missionary who originally filed that suit against Georgia on
37:09
Speaker 1: behalf of the Cherokee that went to the Supreme Court,
37:12
Speaker 1: and um he was he warned Watty. Watty got out,
37:16
Speaker 1: went on to fight in the Civil War, and he
37:18
Speaker 1: was the last general to surrender in the Confederacy, the
37:22
Speaker 1: last one, not the last Cherokee general, the last general
37:26
Speaker 1: of the Confederacy to surrender. So he very interesting story there.
37:31
Speaker 1: So overall, Chuck, between eighteen thirty and eighteen fifty, I
37:34
Speaker 1: said it was a decade earlier. I think the eighteen
37:37
Speaker 1: thirties were the worst of it. But between those those
37:40
Speaker 1: twenty years, the US government moved more than one hundred
37:44
Speaker 1: thousand Native Americans east of the Mississippi to the west
37:48
Speaker 1: of the Mississippi. And not just the five civilized tribes,
37:51
Speaker 1: not just the southeastern or Eastern churches, northern tribes, like
37:55
Speaker 1: basically everyone who was living east of the Mississippi between
38:00
Speaker 1: Canada in the Gulf of Mexico was pushed away across
38:05
Speaker 1: the Mississippi. And it was the first big massive movement
38:09
Speaker 1: of of Native Americans to what would be basically a
38:13
Speaker 1: sweeping motion by the by America, by the federal government
38:18
Speaker 1: from one edge of the coast to the other, trying
38:20
Speaker 1: to sweep the continent clean of Native Americans. And at
38:24
Speaker 1: first it was here, you go to this other area
38:26
Speaker 1: where Native Americans are, and you can deal with it.
38:28
Speaker 1: And then eventually they started running more out of land
38:31
Speaker 1: more and more, and extermination became more of a policy
38:36
Speaker 1: than than removal. Yeah, because remember we had said that
38:40
Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson said, well, the Mississippi River is clearly going
38:43
Speaker 1: to be our western border. Um. They went on to
38:46
Speaker 1: later say, remember when we said that, we would kind
38:50
Speaker 1: of like all the land and we're gonna take it.
38:54
Speaker 1: And in response, finally it was two thousand nine, I
38:58
Speaker 1: think before any official oology was proffered for um the
39:04
Speaker 1: Trail of Tears, and it wasn't just the Trail of tears.
39:07
Speaker 1: It covered everything, anything that had ever been done to
39:10
Speaker 1: Native Americans by the federal government was summed up with
39:13
Speaker 1: an apology for quote the many instances of violence, maltreatment,
39:18
Speaker 1: and neglect inflicted on Native people's by citizens of the
39:21
Speaker 1: United States. Back to business. Yeah, and that was drafted
39:27
Speaker 1: UM a few years part of that by Kansas Senator
39:29
Speaker 1: Sam brown Back and UM signed into law by President
39:34
Speaker 1: Barack Obama and then I guess another. The closest thing
39:40
Speaker 1: to an apology that Georgia ever gave was back in
39:44
Speaker 1: nineteen six Uh, Georgia adopted the Cherokee rose as the
39:49
Speaker 1: official state flower, and according to Cherokee legend, the flower
39:53
Speaker 1: grew from the tears of the mothers who cried for
39:56
Speaker 1: their children along the way, and the flowers still grows
39:59
Speaker 1: along that official trail of tears today, all the way
40:02
Speaker 1: into eastern Oklahoma. Yeah, and that trail is protected um
40:08
Speaker 1: federally for now at least. So that's trailer tears man,
40:13
Speaker 1: tough one, tough too. Yes. Uh. If you want to
40:18
Speaker 1: know more about the trailer tears, just type those words
40:20
Speaker 1: into your favorite search engine and start learning. And since
40:24
Speaker 1: I said start learning, it's time for listener mail. Uh.
40:28
Speaker 1: This is a correction about the Holy Roman Empire. Hey, guys,
40:32
Speaker 1: I know you'd like to get things right even after
40:34
Speaker 1: the facts, so I thought i'd help you out a bit.
40:36
Speaker 1: Listening to the Death Tax episode picked up on something
40:39
Speaker 1: you said in this and at least one of the
40:41
Speaker 1: recent episode when you mentioned the Holy Roman Empire. It's
40:44
Speaker 1: pretty clearly referring to Rome during the early part of
40:46
Speaker 1: the first millennium. Ce, but it's actually an incorrect moniker
40:50
Speaker 1: for that state. The Holy Roman Empire is it's referred
40:53
Speaker 1: to in history, was a collection of Central European traditionally
40:57
Speaker 1: Germanic U states UH, briefly some of Italy early on,
41:02
Speaker 1: under a loose rule by the Holy Roman Emperor, not
41:04
Speaker 1: the Pope who was the ruling papals who was ruling
41:07
Speaker 1: the papal states when the Holy Roman Empire was in
41:10
Speaker 1: its early existence. Origins of the Holy Roman Empire began
41:13
Speaker 1: in the ninth ninth century, followed by the division of
41:17
Speaker 1: Charlemagne's Frankish kingdom into the three partitions given to each
41:22
Speaker 1: of his three sons, the easternmost, eventually becoming the Holy
41:25
Speaker 1: Roman Empire UH. Without getting into too much specific history,
41:31
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that it's roughly one thousand year run
41:34
Speaker 1: is filled with fascinating events and political structure unique in
41:37
Speaker 1: world history. Catholic Reformation and the Thirty Years War impacted
41:41
Speaker 1: and influenced heavily the political structure of the Holy Roman
41:44
Speaker 1: Empire and his member states for one, and Chris ort Loff, buddy,
41:50
Speaker 1: you are a student of history. Clearly very well done,
41:55
Speaker 1: and thank you for that nice name dropping of Charlemagne
41:58
Speaker 1: to Chris if you want to school it's like Chris,
42:01
Speaker 1: did we love that kind of thing, especially if it's
42:03
Speaker 1: nice and pleasant. Uh. You can tweet to us. I'm
42:07
Speaker 1: at josh um Clark and at s Y s K podcast,
42:10
Speaker 1: Chuck's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant on Facebook and its
42:14
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know on Facebook right. You can send
42:17
Speaker 1: us both an email the Stuff podcast at how stuff
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