Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / How to Fund your Fashion Business, with CinCin’s Co-Founder Geo Moriarty (Part 1)

Transcript

How to Fund your Fashion Business, with CinCin’s Co-Founder Geo Moriarty (Part 1) · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

• 0:00
  This is Gio Moriarty for Female Startup Club. Welcome back to the show. It's Dune here, your host and hype girl. If you're new, holy damn, I'm so happy you found us. I love that for you and I love that for me.
• 0:25
  Today, we're learning from Gio Moriarty, who is one of the co-founders behind my absolute go-to favorite fashion label.
• 0:35
  If you can imagine the vibe of FSC, but in fashion form, I mean, this is it. It is bold. It's bright. It's super cool. It's giving maximalist, OTT, absolutely everything and all the things I love, right down to their hot pink couch in their retail store.
• 0:58
  Gio and I go back circa 15-ish years and watching her build this business from the ground up into a multi-seven-figure empire has been nothing short of bloody amazing to say the least.
• 1:13
  And if you're in fashion, I think you're going to love this episode. Seriously. We're talking through the manufacturing piece and the printing piece, even down to the nitty gritty of why you should or should not use silk. We talk about how to fund a fashion business and why it's so tricky. We talk about retail. We talk about wholesale, the marketing piece, all of it. There's literally so much gold packed into this episode. I know you're going to love it.
• 1:40
  Now, we did have a few minor tech issues here and there, so if you notice anything, please just bear with us. I can promise you it is worth it. Let's get into today's episode. This is Gio for Female Startup Club. Gio, hi. Welcome to the Female Startup Club podcast. Hi, Doonie. Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Thank you.
• 2:04
  I'm so excited about today and I want to give some context for our listeners because you and I have known each other since I feel like maybe even school or certainly like around that time when we graduated. I can pinpoint. I know where it all started. You can pinpoint? Yes. You dated my very good friend Dan and I remember getting to know you and you were really...
• 2:32
  switched on then, like you had a fashion blog. Wait, it was more a blog that was like a portfolio of your work. But yeah, I was like, ooh, that girl's really career focused. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. It's such a long time ago. I feel like that's 15 years ago, which it kind of freaks me out saying that. Maybe even nearly 20 years ago. We have a connection through Lou when you worked at the Iconic in Sydney as well. We've kind of stayed in the same network.
• 3:02
  Yeah, yeah. I feel like, I mean, I knew you a lot longer before Lou came to the Iconic, like we were both brizzy gals. But yes, that also loops us back in. And I feel like I've watched you over your career dabble in a few different things to do with fashion and all these kind of things before you started Chin Chin. And it's been such a joy watching you on the sidelines and kind of
• 3:26
  What's happened now with you and Lou, you know, where the business is today and what you've managed to build is just so impressive to me. So I'm so excited for this. Me too. I mean, I remember when your podcast first came out, I thought, that'll be fun going on that. Yeah.
• 3:42
  Yeah, here we are. Here we are. I actually, I was wearing my chin-chin bikinis that I bought in Bali yesterday and they make my boobs look so good. I don't know if I told you that last time, but my best friend was like, your boobs look like the best boobs I've ever seen. I love hearing that. I know. That's amazing. It's the bikinis. That's what we want. Thank God. There's a payoff to these blood, sweat and tears.
• 4:06
  It's all for your booze, isn't it? I know, I know. I feel like Chin Chin speaks to my soul in fashion form. But I want to go back to the beginning. I want to understand the start of your story with Chin Chin. How did you and Lou kind of come up with this idea? Where does it all start? So Lou and I are old friends and we both worked in fashion for years and years. That was our thing, right? And then we traveled for three months.
• 4:36
  monumental travel experience. So we were away for three months, but this was after ending relationships, moving out of houses, changing cities. Lou left a really stressful job that gave her, like, adrenal failure at a fashion head office. And I basically split up with my fiance. I moved out of that house, and we were like, yep, we're off. We're doing this. And then three months later, we returned back to Sydney. I moved to Sydney from Brisbane.
• 5:05
  I actually started a business with someone else and quite quickly realized that that was feeling not right. And I thought I better pull the pinnacle. And then Lou and I were chatting. We just got on this roll. I remember it was like in Bondi, a sunny afternoon. And we just got really excited, like almost worked ourselves up. It's crazy to this day how our ideas are so on the same page.
• 5:33
  We just got so excited. So I guess the root of it all was our creative idea, that we were linked through that. And I think it was also timing, the perfect time. And we did decide, let's create a fashion label. And I guess it was a passion project in the beginning. And we didn't know what we were getting into at all. And never would I have thought that it would end up like this. And it's amazing. It's better than I could ever have envisioned, actually.
• 6:00
  So at that time, were you already living in Bali? Like did you already have that kind of life or were you like, oh, I should move to Bali to start the brand? No, you were already living in Bali. I lasted in Sydney for six months and then my lease ran out and I'd always wanted to go to Sydney and Bali, sorry, and it never felt daunting to me. It always felt really like a comfortable thing to do. So I was like, all right, I'm going to Bali. And to avoid a big hoo-ha, I just said, okay, I'm going to go for three months.
• 6:30
  kind of knowing that it wasn't going to be three months. But then went there, and we were already in the process of setting up the brand. But we did buy off a lot in the beginning. Placement print, which is a process of getting the motif onto certain garments in a fixed way, so that you don't print a roll and cut the pattern pieces off that. You have a sixth piece of the pattern on every garment pattern piece.
• 6:58
  So that is tough, especially in the beginning. And even the girl that we had helping us, we asked her to help us with our second collection and she said, dear, I don't want to do it. I'm so sorry, but I can't do it again. It was too hard. Like it was just so, I think now we find it a lot easier. But back then we had to lay out all the patent pieces individually on the roll. So if you order 20 small, 20 medium, 20 large, you've got to lay them all out. Like you can't just print. It also costs more money and waste more time.
• 7:28
  Yeah, it costs more money, but does it also mean it's harder to kind of mass produce anything because it kind of more aligns itself to being small batch because it's so hands-on to do that technique? Absolutely. You can do it commercially 100%, but it's going to use more fabric and show up to errors and take a lot more time and care and skill. So that's why expensive prints are placement. Like they'll have a border on the bottom of a pair of pants
• 7:57
  a cuff or even just like a digital kind of graphic print. It will be in one spot. Imagine if you have like a sunset. Well, you wouldn't want one shirt that just has a corner of a cloud or something. But cheap brands, if you look at fast fashion, it's all small repeat prints, usually with a lot of black lines. So if there's an error, it just gets hidden.
• 8:20
  And for you, when it was like in the beginning, the early days, what was the vision at that point? Was it like, hey, let's just do some resort kind of bold patterns out there, like different styles? Or what was the vision? I think we never used the word resort. Resort is like, yeah, I still struggle with that word a bit. But we started off doing silk pantsuits.
• 8:51
  print and we're inspired by Italy which seems so cliche now but it got under our skin and yeah we did really luxurious pleated pants. Do you have a pair? No. Yeah I have some from the original or like the early maybe the first or second collection. The pink ones with the 12. Okay yeah they're not the original original but we started with that and then matching the
• 9:20
  button-up shirt, and it was a really cool look, and we've brought it back now. Like, our roots are still present, because I love that look. It was almost like a silk pajama suit, I guess you could say. And printing on silk is hard, too. Like, not only is the natural fiber printing another ballgame, but silk fades. It's just tricky, I think.
• 9:41
  As you've come like a few years into the journey now, when you think about the manufacturing piece and the fabrics and the dyeing and that kind of, and the evolution that you've had, do you still do the same things? Like are you still doing that printing on silk or has it changed? And what have you learnt through the manufacturing piece? So much. The learning curve is deep. Yeah, it's really been...
• 10:07
  a crazy learning experience. So basically all our processes were fine-tuned, but they're very different from when we started. And I guess there's no handbook. And a lot of people are very, you know, unwilling to give away information. I can't just go to someone and say, hey, how do we do this? It's really trial and error. And then seeing what works best, seeing what sells best, and seeing what gives you the best quality. But now it's also finding your suppliers. So the printer we started off with,
• 10:38
  hard to work with, just slow. And now I think we have a really good relationship with the people that we work with. And I mean, things are different because the volumes are so much higher. So we make an effort to meet face to face. And we now know how the whole process works, like all the machine areas. That gives a lot of insight too. But definitely, the fine tuning will never stop. We're still learning so much about... Even now, I'm trying to source different fabrics to...
• 11:08
  you know, some garments you want to make, your fabric library doesn't really lend itself to that exact thing. So you're always trying to, also I think finding the perfect fabric that you keep in your fabric library is like really labour intensive. Yeah, wow. I've never even heard of that, your fabric library. I've never even heard of that. I think I just made that up. I've never said that before, but it gets the point across. We have our regulars that, yeah, I just love.
• 11:36
  Can we go back to like the money piece in the beginning? Because I feel like a lot of people listening who are maybe dreaming about starting a fashion label one day would love to know, you know, how much does it cost to start a fashion label? What did you need to invest even when it was at that level of passion project? Like what is the kind of realistic capital that you need to get started and how were you funding it in the beginning? We were funding it through, well, I had,
• 12:03
  So this isn't my first brand. The brands before were my practice runs and they were much smaller. But I closed down the brand that I had before that and sold off my remaining stock wholesale very cheaply, which was actually a regret of mine even closing that brand. I sort of just kept it running. But so I put some money in that way and then there was my business partner also contributed her share. But to be honest,
• 12:31
  I mean, we weren't fully trying to bootstrap, but our investment in the initial stages was small. And we didn't even realize, you know, we were thinking very small at that point. We didn't think, let's create a two year plan and see, you know, put it into phases and how many collections that we really just thought. Actually, we didn't do much thinking in the beginning. It was just creating and then seeing what was left.
• 12:57
  And we did reach a point where we were like, okay, well, we've exhausted our funds. We need to get some more. So it's just crazy thinking back to how small we saw it in the beginning. But I guess that's what gets you the way you are. Otherwise, the barrier to entry would have been too big in our minds. But I would say if your listeners would really like pragmatic tools, it depends on the level you want to go.
• 13:24
  You could, like, my level before that was $2,000. Maybe I started that. And that was my bread and butter. Like, that was my money that kept me alive pretty cushionly. It was good. I traveled the world, like, doing that and just working on my laptop at night. But nowadays, if it was me starting a new business, I'd want to have a certain standard to be imagery, and you'd want to do things right.
• 13:49
  But then you could even get away with doing super small POs or starting off on pre-order. You could be super savvy. I don't think you need more than $10,000 or even $5,000 to start something. Get a friend, take some photos on your iPhone, you know. Like my first brand that I would sell every day, it was a self-timer in my lounge room.
• 14:14
  I don't even know how to use the camera. The times have changed again. There's a lot of competition and you have to be a little bit more split to elicit trust from your buyer. But I do think don't let the dream go if money is the obstacle. Oh, I love that. Because the banks are not going to give you money in the beginning. I'll see what reaction you get in bills. Easier said than done.
• 14:38
  Yeah, one foot in front of the other. In that beginning, like first collection, how many pieces did you have and what were the minimums you had to order at that time? Oh, it was very small. But I think tightly edited is the way to go in the beginning and you're not trying to be a supermarket of clothing, probably not unless that's your business model. Niche is the way to go. I remember listening to all these marketing podcasts and they were like, specialise, specialise, specialise, do what you do and do it really well.
• 15:08
  So we did our silk pantsuits in two prints, like a really graphic red and beige one. And then the cooler end of the colour palette was like all purple and pale pink and blue. And then we just had matching swimsuits. So two bikini sets and one swimsuit. And we did them, every piece in two prints. Ah, and then two scarves. Really small. And that wasn't enough. That was enough for...
• 15:35
  interchangeable styling. So the head-to-toe look could be headscarf, bikini, or the swimsuit or the bodysuit and the pants, oh, and the shirt. And was that like, as in when you say small, do you mean like 20 units per item or do you mean like 200 units per item? I was just talking about the range plan. So on paper, the amount of styles that we had, to me, now that's small. But I actually think it's perfect to start off with that. So it would have been two shirts, two pants, four bikini, two swimsuits.
• 16:05
  And then minimum order quantities, I can't even remember. I know the minimum that we could order was 12 with our supplier. But then our swim guy, we could order whatever actually. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, we just, I mean, things are not, probably not going to fly out the door when you launch your brand. So, yeah, we ordered small and it probably was 20 pieces to begin with, but yeah.
• 16:31
  The lead times are so short. I could just print another 10-meter fabric back then and order another 10. This wasn't a part of our world thinking of big PR numbers and getting investors for that. I feel like we had pretty much summed up the manufacturing piece. So I want to kind of shift gears and talk about marketing, but specifically the launch. I love to always find out those early days. How did you get started? How did you get your first sale? What was that process?
• 17:02
  So the process was, I don't want to say anticlimactic, but it didn't work towards having like a database pre-launch. It was just a bit of a soft launch. Now I look back, I can give it that name. But at the time, we didn't categorize it. It's slow. You don't get fireworks and a big hullabaloo. Like you're live and then you wait for orders to come in. So we got our first sale. Oh.
• 17:31
  I always used to remember this girl's name. She's ordered from us since, which is really cute. But I mean, go on, go them to kind of take a punt on this random new Instagram brand. So there must have been something in our product that they liked, but the sales were very slow in the beginning. But we're very lucky because early on in our first collection, we got picked up by Moda Operandi and sold wholesale to them. So that was the kicker.
• 18:00
  Oh, wow. Straight away. Yeah. Okay, wait. Let's unpack this for a second. So did they reach out to you or were you actively pursuing retailers at that point? I've never successfully actively pursued a major retailer. It has never worked. Every single major retailer we've partnered with has sought us out. Right. In the first three years of our business, we haven't acquired any new majors in the last two years. So that's...
• 18:30
  Do you know what that tells me? They're very interested in getting the hot new thing. Emerging brands have a lot of appeal for them because they want to be the first one to get it. You're not saturated. You're not on every website. But then there are other things that they're not wanting to encounter, which is you being unprepared, not being able to deliver on time. And we did have some insight because a friend of mine knows the buyer at a certain major and
• 18:56
  She was like rooting for us and she gave us some advice like you've really always got to appear that you're going to deliver, try to do the three seasons a year instead of dropping down to two because they really won't back you if they think that there's any possibility that you won't be able to fulfill what's after you, which has never occurred to me.
• 19:17
  Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. So all the major retailers, they all want three collections a year minimum or just like three full stop? Two minimum, but really to compete and offer newness and stay relevant, if you want to grow as a brand, I think three is probably minimum, which sounds like a small amount, but per year, so every four months, God, it just creeps up.
• 19:43
  But there could be like three seasons and then you do a collaboration per year, so then it's four. There is also, if you do three, quite a large gap in between two to three and then that's a bit of a cash flow gap as well, which can be a challenge. Oh, my gosh. To me, three sounds like a lot. I'm like, holy shit. Are you planning your collections for like, like do you already know what's coming out all of next year? Absolutely. So we know now what's coming out. Oh, my God.
• 20:11
  That's crazy. The end of July now, we know what will come out in the end of Jan or mid-Jan. You know what? That's not even that crazy. It should probably be an extra season ahead. So as soon as these, like literally next week, I'm set for the new collection that'll come out in May. Yeah. But you have to be ahead because we need three months to produce anyway. So we'll go to market for it with the collection three months before we deliver it.
• 20:38
  So, okay, I've got more questions about, wait, about who did you say the first retailer was, Moda? Moda Operandi, yeah. Yeah. So had you, when you say you've never successfully pitched or like gotten someone that you were chasing, are you actively like, you know, sending emails and lookbooks and that kind of thing? Oh, let me define that because, yeah, that could be misleading. So we have an agency now and we're in showrooms with our agents
• 21:06
  in like America and Europe and Australia, and they have out all of our samples so buyers can come through and feel and see the samples and then place their order. They've only gotten us one new major retailer though. It's all been independent boutiques. But when I say that I didn't ever successfully get one, it was when friends and I that were in the industry would swap buyers contact and we'd kind of do a cold reach out or an intro.
• 21:34
  And initially there was some excitement, or not excitement, acknowledgement, and they'd be like, yes, this looks great, or I'll pass this on to a different department. Right. I've tried it with a few people. It never worked on both sides.
• 21:47
  Wow, that's so interesting. So you've got to kind of really just hope that they're looking at your brand. In the beginning, just to paint the picture, when Moda reached out to you, how many followers did you have on social media? Do you think they cared about anything about that? Or was it literally just like, your clothes are different, they're unique. I personally love it. I think our customers will love it. I want to chat.
• 22:12
  I know for a fact that buyers are looking at your socials and certain buyers from certain majors are very hesitant to take you on unless it's of a certain calibre and different regions look for different things. For instance, like the UAE is really looking for a lot of brand awareness through influences from that region. So Modolf and Randy had a unique business model at the time. They were really the leaders in the whole trunk show. So it's not buy now, wear now.
• 22:42
  It was you watch the runway or you get an exclusive pre-buy. So everything felt very exclusive and special. And then I guess that maybe was where we could become an asset because we were undiscovered and could offer something that no one had seen. So we were included in a group trunk show. But I think they would have liked us because... What was the investment into that? It was a small PO for the trunk show. But sell-through was good.
• 23:12
  Because they're not going to keep buying you if the sell-through is not. So to get that sell-through and to actively make sure that that was going to be a successful partnership, how much money did you need to invest in marketing or additional things? Your marketing would be part of your broad, bigger picture strategy. But to ensure sell-through, I think it comes down to your fits and your fabrics being really...
• 23:40
  Yeah, you just hope you get a low return rate and things fit and people love it. I mean, a lot of it is having that it factor and making people just want your things. And also, it's out of your hands. All you can pray for is good feedback because some retailers, they give you very detailed feedback and it's so useful. And we definitely use that. It's sometimes so detailed. So, an example would be, so different retailers might tell you what colors and what pieces really fit.
• 24:09
  sell the best for them or like the tried and true favorites or they see a trend coming up and then they think you should jump on that. And I'm not anti-trans. I think it's a great way to grow your business, like ride the wave of the trends. And other feedback, especially from our agents, it's really valuable. It can range from, you know, with the UAE, more modest clothing that we'd need to develop our collection to include down to like micro advice.
• 24:38
  Like maybe the buttons here, they had feedback that the logo on the buttons wasn't to their liking. That's real feedback that I've had. Oh, wow. Okay. I thought it was such a nice thing having the logo on the buttons. Yeah, I tend to agree. Love a logo. And your logo is great. Thanks. Wow, that's so cool. Okay, so Moda places this order. It's kind of the first pivotal moment for you guys in business. And this is back in 2019 or 2018 that you launched, right?
• 25:07
  2019 it would have been. Oh, I think it was 2018. So it did feel very exciting at the time. We were excited and we poured over the contract trying to get our head around all the terminology, which now we know off the back of our hand. But in the beginning, again, you can't just Google this stuff. It's like jargon. So, you know, cancel dates, net 30, net 60, it didn't mean anything to us.
• 25:36
  So we were very excited and we didn't have any systems in place. So I remember we had to learn barcoding. Well, not learn it, implement it. And the way we did it, I printed all these little labels on Microsoft Word and would print them like eight to a page and just spend a day like sticky taping sticker paper to a piece of paper on like what? Now we've registered with GS1 barcodes. And that honestly felt like we deserved a trophy.
• 26:05
  after doing that because it's unpleasant. It's admin, right? But you have to have GS1 registered products. Yeah. All the fun things, but it's worth it. It's just getting your product market ready. I don't even know what that means. My God. Okay. Barcoding. Yeah.
• 26:22
  And so what happens after that? Because you get this one order, but like how do you kind of start to build, you know, consistent, stable traffic to your own website and consistent, stable sales through your own e-commerce site as well as continuing to spread through retail and things like that? Well, the retail was the best way to get traffic on our own website and I think that was why we acquired the majors early on because they're just looking at what the other majors are stocking.
• 26:50
  I think that was the best exposure and even getting posted on the major Instagram. Like when we were very young and we got posted on the motor Instagram, I think we wrote off that Instagram post for months. Like it was good. See, this was pre COVID and I always wonder with how we started, if it's completely different now, like I don't even know if the buyers would have taken us on now. I think everything's always just getting a little more slick and the expectations get a little more higher.
• 27:21
  how to grow our business. So good content is always just a chase for new, new, new, more content. And then really defining who we were, like our identity, and trying to remain true to that. And that's ongoing. You're always evolving and growing. But it's a bit of a conundrum. It can be harder than, well, it's harder than I thought, to really pin down your brand DNA.
• 27:50
  But now, also knowing our girl, the Tin Tin girl, we just refer to her or our two or three customers constantly. And I think that's the best way to design and to market.
• 28:04
  How do you approach like influencer marketing, especially in the early days? Because obviously you have a product that's a higher price point. So you can't, you know, gift at scale. So how did you in the very beginning think like, you know, how much of our product should we allocate to gifting? How did you approach that strategy? And then let's talk through how that's evolved. So the gifting scape has changed so much for us. When you start out,
• 28:33
  In a nutshell, no one's interested because it's not really a win-win. The influencers not getting exposure from being posted on your account. So they've really just got to love the product. It was a lot harder to get attention, to get replies, whereas now we're inundated and we actually get quite a few amazing influencers message us that we're so excited to create something with. But...
• 29:01
  Yeah, in the beginning, it was definitely hard. There was a lot more reaching out for less of a response. And we were starting off doing the silk pantsuit, so they definitely had a high cost price for us to gift in the beginning when every piece kind of meant something to us. But as for strategy, we were quite vague. We would just say, let's aim for two gifts a week.
• 29:25
  That was it. Okay. And just on the kind of the chin-chin girl, basically. Yes. But back then now I'm thinking we were really trying to think who is that or giving different people a go because we thought they encapsulated like a different facet of who we were. But, yeah, it's hard and people make a lot less effort when you're an emerging brand or have just launched. No one was ironing our clothes, so they were creased.
• 29:53
  you know, silk pants. They'd literally get them out of the pocket and put them on. And I'm like, we need to make a clause in the gift, although it wasn't a paid gift. Like a paid post. So, yeah.
• 30:06
  increasing the bane of my existence. Yeah, it's interesting because I would have thought it would have been like the same as retailers being like, I've discovered a new brand that isn't everywhere. So as an influencer, especially one who's, you know, a fashion or beauty influencer who is kind of discovering things and doing different things that it would have been the opposite. That's interesting. I really think it's a, from their perspective, they're trying to get exposure with every post. Right. Right.
• 30:36
  Yeah. God, I'm just thinking back to some of the shots that it was. I think the whole Instagram landscape was different. People are pros now. It's not okay to just take a little grainy selfie in the bathroom and they're like that. People have full-scale production now in their spare room. Yeah. And there were no real, no video either. So, I mean, it's a lot more fun now, really, if you think about it. Agreed.
• 31:06
  And what about, you know, for you, when did you start investing in paid media? So ads on Meta and Google or whatever it might have been. And what was your budget in the beginning? Like when were you like, oh, we should start dabbling in this side of business? So we dabbled from the beginning in a tiny way, testing the waters, doing what our friends had done, which was run ads themselves. And I mean, maybe, well, I know they had success doing that, but I think
• 31:36
  another landscape, the ad landscape just moved so quickly. So that wasn't cutting the mustard. And then we did make a conscious decision. Cutting the mustard. Have you not heard that from our dude? I'm going to use that. No. Oh, my God, I love that. Cutting the mustard. Go on. So we did make the conscious decision. Right, okay, it's time to really maybe move out of passion project land
• 32:06
  And we did then get a bit more serious and we wanted to go, I don't want to say go hard with advertising cause it's always like a process of starting somewhere and building on that. Also, I don't know if we had it that much data to be successful in the beginning cause our pixel was still growing and we've learned a lot through doing our meta ads. That's for sure. I think,
• 32:37
  I mean, we were such a small fire when we started doing meta ads as well. It's also finding the right fit. Who is going to run your ad? We were even thinking, do we keep doing it in-house? Do we get like a freelancer? Do we work with an agency? And I mean, it's a riddle. You're always trying to, even if you have a really successful ad, when is it going to end? Or, you know, how long will it last? How much more budget do we put in?
• 33:03
  if you replicate that exact same thing, there's no guarantee that that's even going to have a good result. It's really crazy. It's not how I expected it to be. It's not a quick fix. It's not like let's get capital to put into ads to guarantee an output. So to me, I still haven't sold the meta ads Rubik's Cube. And I think it's,
• 33:26
  can be quite risky. I really think starting small and just building on your wins. And also you will work out a basic skeleton of your formula. So we found what worked for us was we call them our transitions. And it's our girl getting changed into lots of different outfits, you know, TikTok style, but we'd edit that for real. So it would be a little bit more, I don't want to say classy, a bit more, um,
• 33:52
  aesthetically polished and chic and the music would be different to TikTok music. But whether it's the girl clicking her fingers or the song has like a beat to it where the outfits change, they work for us. That was quite good. And because we have so many prints and so many colors or so many different ways to style one piece, I think it really captured people's attention. So they'd watch her. And I'd always get DMs of screenshots of the girl moving like, what's this outfit, blah, blah, blah.
• 34:22
  Oh, I love that. Yeah, so that's why I say it's a bit more fun because it is like more dynamic and entertaining. I guess it is entertainment-based now because it's all about capturing people's attention for longer. Yep, totally. When you think about like, you know, the ads side of things and the influencer gifting side of things and the other marketing initiatives you do, you know, maybe around pop-ups or retail or whatever, do you think that...
• 34:50
  for you guys in the fashion industry, it's kind of like all of these things kind of just are working kind of holistically together or is there one thing that you're like, this is really what does it for us? Like, you know. I think it's holistically how it fits together. I've never thought of it as holistic, but that's, yeah, bigger picture, broader way of thinking. And I think we're still really getting that into our hands. Everyone works together. Everything supports each other.
• 35:19
  So there's no use spending money on meta ads if you don't have the supporting EDM and the stories. And, you know, it's got to be cohesive. It's got to capture people and you've got to have purpose. And I don't think there's one key. I think one doesn't exist without the other. But really, the root and the foundation of it all is product 100% and then content. Because you can have,
• 35:48
  a white T-shirt and the content, how you present that white T-shirt, you know, your brand identity has got to come through with that. Yep, totally. Yeah, it starts with a product that is something people obviously want, love, want to tell their friends about and how that's presented online. And the quality is good and, yeah, because marketing, what if you did have an amazing result but you don't have, like, a strong foundation in your business either?
• 36:19
  I think there's a lot to be said for the slow turtle wins the race. Yeah. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah. Just keep chipping away. Yeah, I think that's part of the problem in today's world. It's like...
• 36:32
  We look at people online and we look at brands online. And, of course, it always seems like that brand has just popped and it's just happened overnight. But, of course, it's taken 10 years of previous knowledge and previous things stacking together and slowly coming up to whatever that brand or founder is doing now. And I used to think, oh, we'll reach that milestone and that's when everything will change or we'll get a break.
• 36:59
  like someone famous for where, and now I'm sure that that's not how it works. I imagine it to be like a house and you're just putting bricks, tiny little bricks and building that house. It's cumulative. Everything's cumulative. And then in a year you look back and go, whoa, we've come so far. But it never feels like this whoosh. Sometimes if it's a whoosh, that's detrimental. I feel like the motor thing, we were unprepared. The learning curve was steep. And...
• 37:27
  If that order was huge, we would have stumbled massively and we might have burnt that bridge because there would have been faulties, I'm sure, if the order was like four times the size. And delivery times, it was just so hard back then. Now we have all of our supply chains and our own factory ironed out so well. Timing is not a problem, but it can ruin your business if you cannot deliver on time.
• 37:52
  Yeah, Jesus. Gosh, did I see that you were recently featured in Vogue? Yes, we were in a beach thing. That is so cool. Thanks. Congratulations. How did that come about? Not sure. They posted that one and we just Googled it and found it. But we've been included. We've had PR agencies in the past and they got us one inclusion and then two other ones.
• 38:22
  quite a long time ago actually, happened organically. They included us in an Australian, it was called Beach Please. Like the 10 new swim brands or the eight new swim brands that you need to know now. And it's always exciting being anywhere near Vogue. Like it just really pinched me. I mean, the dream, the actual dream. Yeah, it is, yeah. Have you had any celebs wear your clothes? Yes.
• 38:51
  We had Lily Reinhart where I think a few times it seems super lovely. Love her. I want to talk a little bit more about the retail side of the business because that's obviously a big part of what you guys are focusing on and what you're doing. And I feel like you're stocked in just so many cool ones. I think I saw you're just stocked in Revolve now too. We are, yeah.
• 39:13
  At the stage of the business that you're at now, a couple years in, obviously, like growing, doing really well, what is a ballpark kind of PO that a major retailer would place? Like, what's the kind of level of order? Is it like 100 grand, 50 grand, more? And like, what's the, I don't know, how does it work, basically? And you don't need to be specific, but like just ballparks. I'm actually going to say there is no ballpark.
• 39:41
  Because I talk to all my friends. Okay. All my, not friends, like the contacts in the industry and we kind of keep close and always swap info because it's like gold. It's seriously like how much was your PO? What are your terms? What are your discounts? Oh, the terms, yeah, key. What do you mean discount? So when you make a partnership with a retailer, you'll have an initial markup, an IMU percentage, and then often there's a trade discount.
• 40:10
  or a marketing co-op discount and it depends on your shipping terms. It could be like, well, if you're not doing landed terms with us, then we need a trade discount of this, but we do land it now. But also some bigger retailers will just want a discount because they are who they are. Right. Okay. Got it. Yeah. But as for the figures thing...
• 40:35
  It will also change wildly throughout the lifespan of your business. And I guess every market, and market is like the selling period for a collection, you're building on what you've done before based on their feedback. You go and you make your collection bigger and better and you hope it's just the best thing they've ever seen. And then your orders will grow. And then eventually you'll have breakthroughs where it grows a lot. And then you're also hoping that your sell-through continues to improve. So our sell-throughs,
• 41:02
  also reveals where your customer is. So Revolve has proven to really be in line with our customer. She's more of a party girl. USA is definitely our market. You know, it's fun, flirty, a bit sexy, whereas other retailers have a very different woman. And then there are facets of our brand that cater to that woman, but it's definitely not just like this all-encompassing yes. So Revolve is definitely our market.
• 41:31
  They're the most exciting stockers. Yeah, I can see that. Even just thinking about them in general, it seems like it would be. Yeah. And they're great with recuts. The US is a recut region, whereas like Europe, they're just going to put all their eggs in the basket in the initial order. Out of all your major retailers, what's the biggest PO that you've gotten? Hmm.
• 41:56
  I can't be that specific, Dean. Sorry. Nice try. Nice try. I'll always try. Okay, well, I actually can tell you, though, I'm waiting on a very exciting PO, and I think it will – I'm hoping when we get off this call that it's come in, and that will be the biggest PO we've ever received, maybe three times as big. We're chatting, like, do we have capacity to fulfil this? Funding. Where are we at with this? So, okay. Okay.
• 42:25
  I need to touch wood now because we haven't got it yet, but I'm pretty sure it's in the bag. And that is exciting, but also a little bit like you've got to make sure that you're equipped. Like the terms and conditions are long. So, you know, if a sell-through is poor, are they going to make you take products back? Is there going to be a product swap? There's all sorts of things we need to consider because the stakes are higher. Like, yes, it's really exhilarating, but then we've got to deliver like the pressures are off.
• 42:55
  Oh my gosh. Well, I'm so excited for you. I can't wait to hear if that goes through. Oh, thanks. Me too. I hope so.
• 43:04
  You touched on something I want to ask about there. It's actually a two-part question. It's about the funding side of how you keep going and like the working capital side and also the terms. And, you know, how do you go about negotiating better payment terms? Have you been able to kind of across your retailers? And, yeah, like how are you funding each order? When you get a huge order that's three times the size, I imagine you have to be like, okay, fuck, where do we get the money from? Well, where do I start?
• 43:31
  So in fashion, the cash flow cycle is brutal. They say that most fashion labels die in their third season because you've outlaid for your first season, you haven't recouped for your second season, and then you need to produce a third season. So everybody, well, this is what like a maven of the industry told us in the beginning. She's like, yes, you've made it to your third season. Yeah.
• 43:59
  So there's that. And obviously the payment terms with majors can be, through COVID, net 90. So we would have to deliver our goods. And three months later we receive payments. So they say, really, it was like four months, five months, six months. It's so frustrating. So cash flows a bit, basically, with fashion. Like that's just the way it is. And then terms. So initially, too, you are...
• 44:28
  catering to their whims. You just want your foot in the door. You'll do anything possible to be represented by them. And after our motor operandi experience, I knew that the exposure is just so great that it really is worth it. Even if you say, oh, this is just a PR exercise, it's worth it. So initially the terms were experts because we're shipping everything from Bali, which is not very desirable for a major to take on.
• 44:57
  I remember one time for Shopbox, they agreed to XWorks, which means we ship it from Bali and then it lands in the United States. So it's subject to custom. They had an agent, their own agent, and they organized the label for its shipment and it was stuck in there for months. And they kept asking us for help and we couldn't help. It was like in the USA, like you have your agent, you need to do it. But yeah, because if they didn't get it in time for the season, maybe they'll never order from us again.
• 45:27
  But they did and now we ship everything landed. But now we have an agent too. We're not doing the negotiating ourselves. So an agent over time will work to just get the best deal. It's not even always about the best terms. It's about them ordering more or them balancing their swim order with more resorts or like if we have a swap, getting the best arrangement out of that. How do you get an agent?
• 45:57
  So agents, you just find one that would work for your niche and your product and be a really good fit that you think will work their butt off to sell your product. And then you may or may not pay a retainer and you're represented in their showroom space. And then every market, they will use their relationships as the buyers to sell your goodies. Right.
• 46:22
  So back to the funding piece for working capital. When you're a fashion brand, even if it's not you guys, but what is the playbook for capital then? Like where do you go as a fashion founder to be like, okay, I need funding to like, are you going to like Shopify capital or PayPal capital or are you going and finding investors or are you personally getting investment or credit cards or bank loans or like what is it? Very good question. So as a rule,
• 46:52
  People will fund an invoice, but they're not going to fund maybe there's losses and you're trying to say, that's different. When you just need money to produce because people want your product, it's great. Like Shopify Capital is a no, I think. When you really dive deep into the terms, not good. I think it's an emergency button. What's not good about it?
• 47:21
  I think it's like short-term parachute vibe. I just think the terms are not good at all. And if you went under, Shopify is never going to lose because they'll be the first person that that money goes to. I don't know. Not cutting the mustard. I think it's not at all. It's not cutting the mustard. Basically, the terms are crap. So you're paying too much interest. So like any margin that you had, is there really going to be any cream left on top? I don't know.
• 47:51
  I wouldn't think you'd even want to run your business on that. But then again, if you're being offered quite good money on your Shopify capital, if it pops up when you look at your store, there's $100,000 for you to take if you want it. That means you're doing all right. That means the sales are coming in. So surely there's another avenue to get funding. So what we did was make a five-year model, which was very detailed, with an actuary who's a data nerd and a genius.
• 48:20
  really, because he would think so logically and that's also planning. That's not my forte. And we budgeted every little bit. And obviously a model is not real life. You're creating this kind of playbook, a fantasy of how the next five years are going to play out. But we were hoping that, yep, once we get this amount of money to sustain us through the fashion season and these two months, you know, net 30, you know, all the,
• 48:49
  production cycles, even if our orders go up to this point, yep, we'll still have enough money with the capital that we've got now. So we are predicting a long time ahead. And if things go better than the model, that's fine. You can always find a way to fund that. And there's a lot of different ways. You could have a direct investor or you could even do factoring where they'll help you pay an invoice. Still tricky.
• 49:19
  I mean, is bootstrapping even possible? I don't know. It comes to a certain point. In fashion, it would be pretty hard. Yeah, right, right. And so for you, you guys have investors or an investor that helps you kind of like keep going over this five-year plan? We have, yes. But then you've got to be planned. You can't go to – they're not like a money bag like, oh, hey, we need a bit more. It's like, no, well, why?
• 49:48
  It needs to be all laid out and then you're responsible for sticking to your budget and performing. Where did you find your actuary? I haven't heard that word before. Your data guru. If you Google it, it will say like someone who analyzes numbers to blah, blah, blah. He's extremely analytical. Like it's so awesome to have that yin and yang thing.
• 50:12
  just to have brains that work differently to yours. Like even Lou, my business partner, I feel like we work so complementary to each other. And did you find him on Google or like through a recommendation or something? No. He used to live in South Africa where Louie, my business partner, lived and he was just known in her network, recommended from a friend. Right, right, right. Okay. And so he works with you as like a consultant whenever you need kind of thing. Yes. But he's quite involved in the business.
• 50:43
  goes above and beyond and helps us not just with numbers but with like logistics and stock system, all sorts. Whenever we're stuck, we can go to him for knowledge and say, can you draw up a comparison of this and this? Or can you really unpack the numbers behind this? Like I know I'm getting these statistics, but when you factor in like fees, interest, this, or when we put money into that, like what actually comes out? It's interesting.
• 51:11
  We're very lucky that he genuinely cares about Xinjiang. Like, he wants us to succeed. Oh, I love that. Yeah, he's good. He chairs our meetings. He's the mediator sometimes. Is he? Like, the voice of reason. Or the voice of unreason a lot of the time, actually. Because he's so methodical. Yeah, I guess our minds just think so differently, so...
• 51:33
  I have to keep him in tech sometimes. Oh, my gosh. You recently launched a store in Bali. I was lucky enough to go there and do some shopping. And you also launched the Darmaria pop-up store, which I drove past and was like, holy shit, that's so cool. How's it going? What's the impact been since you kind of launched these physical representations of your brand? Well, there's been a lot of buzz. I think...
• 52:03
  It's just amazing to have a space that represents who you are as a brand and to be able to have people in and it almost be like a showroom because it's just the best possible way and the most beautiful space to display our wares in and we've designed it ourselves. So, yeah, I think it's aesthetically punty, yeah. And I think the impact is very good for brand building,
• 52:33
  hype aside from it being really fun like a project that we were just dying to do for a while and I think the position's really good and as Bali grows I know that will become quite a hub because already there's some of the best restaurants on that street but I think it'll be our home for a while. Shelter's on that street right? It is and Barvera. Yeah Barvera's really cool. And there's also a new one opening soon so yeah it's all happening back then.
• 53:01
  And the sole rooftop is also on that street, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Do you think you will open more stores? Like is your goal to be like have a boutique in, you know, Australia or the US or something? We talk about that as being a goal down the track. I'd love to have boutiques.
• 53:21
  Maybe a Miami or LA store. Oh, my God, Capri. Let's do it. Oh, my God, Capri. That would be so sick. Oh, wait. That's what I was going to ask you. Do you guys do like Miami Swim Week and these kind of big fashion, you know, trade show events? Or is that not part of the strategy? We did. We've done it once. We did it last market. So just two months ago, we were at Cabana, which is one of the main – there's Cabana and Swim Show, I think.
• 53:51
  at Miami and we did Cabana. So it's, yeah, a trade show. We had our main line displayed next to our collaboration with Herve Leger there and it's just really good because people can experience the samples. Wow. That's key, being positioned next to someone like that. Yeah. Well, we're represented by our agency, so it's all the other brands in the agency that,
• 54:18
  In our booth, it's good. I know they represent us really well. I just love the thought of people stumbling on us more than usual. So a lot of independent boutique buyers are there. Also, we didn't show. We didn't do a show. Like, there's no models on the runway. I'm not even sure if that's the best path for us long term. What's been the impact so far? I mean, it's two months, so I feel like it's still early days. But what's been the impact? The impact...
• 54:47
  It wasn't too huge, to be honest. I wonder about the relevancy of that compared to just our regular show, because it is quite specific. It's in Miami, right? So I know it's indie boutique focus, indie boutique buyers are the people that are going to be there mainly. But do you know what it might be like, an impact that you can't
• 55:13
  quantify because it might be buyers that have done a couple of buyers from you but seeing you at cabana instills your credibility and they build hype and they can talk to the agent about our collection and it just really builds your brand like you're there your presence alone is important totally but it's not like we acquired all these new stuff it's because we already were showing in
• 55:41
  showrooms in LA, New York, Paris, London and two in Australia so that was just an added one. That's so cool. Yeah it's a lot it's a lot of samples soon it's nearly a thousand samples a season that we have to get out and get shipped back to my mum in Australia sorry mum. To your mum oh I love that shout out to your mum being part of the business. Hey mum.
• 56:08
  Do you ever travel to like all these places to be part of the showings or are you going to start? To be honest, I don't think buyers want to talk to you. They want to get their buyers done and they want to be a bit brutal and talk to the agent and be like, oh no, I don't like the red. Think it, they'd have to pussyfoot around us a bit. Yeah, just be really upfront and honest. But then again, I'd love to have a relationship with the buyers more. That's something I've wondered. Is it detrimental that I'm not getting to talk to these buyers? But
• 56:37
  I think there is a definite expiry date for when Lou and I can get away with not being over there at certain market periods, like maybe we could do an event or something. But next year we'll definitely be heading to LA to forge some relationships and just be on the ground. But, I mean, it's not essential. Zoom calls and just the product speaks for itself, really. We're also not a brand. It's not called Gio and Lou, right?
• 57:07
  It's not dependent on us. Yeah. I think as well, like the pandemic changed the way that everything works and maybe before it put more pressure on people to travel and be part of these things. But now in today's world, everyone's like, no, let's do it. Let's do it on a Zoom call. But I do think, I completely agree with you. I just know Lou and I could sell our collection better than anybody else. I know that. That's for sure.
• 57:38
  We know the product inside out. We've been through the process of making it from start to finish. And I think the way we wear it and the way that we're
• 57:47
  have extra insight. It's a shame that we can't do that. I think that's true for every founder. Yeah, true, true. It's the same for every founder. You're always going to be the best seller and the best representative for your brand because no one cares as much as you do. Yeah. That's for sure the truth. Get me in that showroom. I don't think I'm a very good salesperson really, but for my sincerity of the excitement that I have about my own
• 58:17
  with
• 58:19
  Yeah, I would disagree. I would say maybe in the typical sense of a salesperson, sure, but because you live and breathe your brand, you're the best person to be the seller of your brand. If you were starting a fashion business or a fashion brand, rather, tomorrow, what would you do the same or differently if you had to kind of pass on some advice for anyone listening who wants to start a brand or is in the fashion industry or is interested about fashion?
• 58:49
  So I know it's really boring and it's probably not what anyone wants to hear, but I would budget everything and plan exactly where every dollar is going to go initially. So one day you don't go, oh, shit, I want to do that now, but I did that. So now I don't have any funds for that. I would plan everything. And what would I do differently from what we did? I would have a much stronger aesthetic and vibe for Instagram.
• 59:19
  as basic as that sounds, I think having a super strong and defined identity is so important in the beginning. And you're never going to do everything perfectly in the beginning. The mistakes are the most valuable thing. Any mistakes you want to share? That's what business is. It's mistakes and problem solving and then doing things better the next time. But what would I not do?
• 59:46
  I wouldn't use silk. It's so expensive. Do you use silk now or you've switched away from silk? No, I've switched away from it. There's so many things that just don't work. So our customer's jet set. They're on holiday. They're going to vacay. Silk is a crumpled mess when you take it out of your suitcase. And we do prints. It's got to be vibrant. It's got to last. Silk fades in yellow.
• 1:00:17
  Yeah, semi-synthetic or a blend is going to hold that colour so much better. And silk pools easily. Also, when you're wearing our clothing in hot environments that might be sweaty or even near a pool, you need something quick dry that is not going to look like a rag after a few wears. It can't be that special. It's not evening wear. You're not wearing it to a ball. Some pieces of ours you are. But definitely as we were very swim and sarong focused and cover-ups,
• 1:00:47
  Silk is not the way to go. I love that. So, okay, let me funnel that into it. Be realistic with your product. Think it's not just, you're not just being an artist. This has got to be a viable commercial product. Take steps in any way possible just to reduce the cost. Because I'm saying you're probably doing your fingers wrong and you're not making it as funny as you think in the beginning. So get that cost down. Great advice. I love that. Thank you so much.
• 1:01:20
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 1:01:44
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 1:02:07
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.
• 1:02:22
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 1:02:47
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 1:03:09
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.