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Christ Alone and the Homiletical Moment with Bob Hiller · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Ministry of Mighty podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_00: ministries.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm of course your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church in
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Paxonis,
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Pennsylvania.
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SPEAKER_00: And on today's episode, I am just
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SPEAKER_00: Bob Hiller Bob is the contact
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SPEAKER_00: He's a great preacher great thinker and a great he's he's
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SPEAKER_00: Starrer
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Faithful to the Word of God while also understanding that ours
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is a moment in
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history and perhaps time and culture that is fraught with
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questions and intentions
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SPEAKER_00: and things that should and ought to be described.
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SPEAKER_00: And what constitutes the homiletical moment.
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So it was really fun to talk with Bob He's just a fun guy to
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talk to And hopefully
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you will enjoy this episode You'll be blessed by it Especially
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whether you're a
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preacher Or whether you're a person who listens to preachers I
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think this episode
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SPEAKER_00: will really bless you
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SPEAKER_00: Pastor Bradley Grace
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SPEAKER_00: Man, Bob Hiller, it has been so long since I've seen you.
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SPEAKER_00: I think we were just sharing right beforehand.
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It's been roughly like two years since we were last together
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over at Here We Still Stand.
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SPEAKER_00: How are you?
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SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
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SPEAKER_00: And how is life right now?
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SPEAKER_01: Things are good.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm...
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SPEAKER_01: I was just telling you, we talked a bit before the show went on.
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SPEAKER_01: I had 10 years in the ministry at this particular church.
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I'm coming up on my 20-year anniversary in the ministry,
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which is kind of surreal.
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SPEAKER_01: My daughter's about to graduate high school.
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SPEAKER_01: It's kind of amazing right now.
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SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I'm getting older.
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SPEAKER_01: I think that's how I'm doing.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm getting older.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the general consensus, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Everyone's getting older.
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SPEAKER_01: It has to be the direction we go.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh man, but what a milestone, two decades of ministry.
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SPEAKER_00: This is,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: the proverbial question that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: when you talk to preachers or pastors or like,
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have we ever gone back to some of those year one sermons and
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re-listened to them?
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SPEAKER_00: Or is that just something you've like burned?
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SPEAKER_00: Were they on cassette tapes?
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SPEAKER_01: Should we ask that?
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SPEAKER_00: Wow.
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SPEAKER_01: No, they were not on cassette tapes.
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my wife and I were cleaning out the garage the other day and
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she found VHS tapes of
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her dancing when she was like a kid yeah I'm like do you want
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to keep these and
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she's like how would we even watch them I don't have any idea
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yeah the other thing
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SPEAKER_01: that happened to me speaking of this
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I had a guy I'm talking to and he records music and he gave me
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some CDs like I'll
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listen to him I can't find a place to listen to him I don't
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have a CD player on my
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car I don't have a computer it's like tech has changed a lot in
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the last 10 years
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what were we talking about I've already forgotten it's the age
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oh yeah I've looked
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at the old sermons every now and then I'll go back and I'm kind
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of struggling to
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find something so I'll go through old sermons for illustrations
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my old sermons
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SPEAKER_01: Now, I don't know how long you preach.
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SPEAKER_01: I generally preach 15-20 minutes is a long one.
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SPEAKER_01: My old sermons were 27 minutes and they weren't good.
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SPEAKER_01: I looked back and I'm like,
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SPEAKER_01: man,
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SPEAKER_01: there's just a lot of stuff here that is unhelpful for the argument.
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SPEAKER_01: I think I'm doing a Bible study in the pulpit.
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but in fact I'm just kind of putting people to sleep the stuff
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I was saying wasn't
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SPEAKER_01: particularly helpful forced illustrations that I I felt like I needed an
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illustration for every point and it was it was just became
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cumbersome and so I've
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SPEAKER_01: I've kind of
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SPEAKER_01: Looked back on those and laughed a bit.
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SPEAKER_01: They weren't terrible sermons.
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SPEAKER_01: They just, they weren't very good.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think to myself,
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what a remarkably kind and patient congregation I had to have a
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first year guy and
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SPEAKER_01: help him learn how to preach because they really did.
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SPEAKER_01: They really taught me how to preach.
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SPEAKER_01: And what's funny is I was there for 10 years, just under 10 years.
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SPEAKER_01: Steve McLaughlin
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I was such a great preacher but my congregation I was very
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comfortable with them
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and I knew them well and I had a cohort of guys which we can
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probably talk about in
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a little bit we got together every Tuesday and we translated
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the text and we would
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have a drink together and go out for tacos and just talk
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ministry and life and I
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really was formed those guys cared a lot about preaching and
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that really helped
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form the way I think homiletically and so I that's when I feel
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like my sermons
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SPEAKER_01: became
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SPEAKER_01: Better for the church.
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SPEAKER_01: Um, does that make sense?
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SPEAKER_01: So, um, yeah, yeah, that's it's kind of fun to watch that trajectory.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually speak to that if you can.
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SPEAKER_00: I think there's this notion,
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SPEAKER_00: at least in my Baptist circle sometimes,
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like we have a lot of – the way we set up churches sometimes is
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like there's a lead
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SPEAKER_00: pastor,
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SPEAKER_00: and usually he's the guy,
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SPEAKER_00: and he's off doing his own thing.
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SPEAKER_00: He's exposing texts by himself,
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SPEAKER_00: and it can sometimes lend itself to this lone wolf sort of theory,
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SPEAKER_00: like I'm the guy,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm exposing –
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But it's always appealed to me and it's always seemed like it
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would be so much more
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SPEAKER_00: conducive to producing.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to use the word producing,
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but like producing or discovering things within a text when
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you're bouncing it off
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SPEAKER_00: each other.
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SPEAKER_00: So talk about the experience and how that really formed you.
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I just heard a phrase yesterday I get the free press I don't
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know where that puts
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SPEAKER_01: me politically But I like the articles there And
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Barry Weiss the lady who runs the Free Press wrote an article
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where they're doing
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some changes over there to bring more communal conversations
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into the work they do
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and shows she had this line where she said we need to think for
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ourselves but we
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don't need to think by ourselves and I thought that applies
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really well to
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preaching we preach to our congregations I'm preaching up there
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it's the Lord using
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SPEAKER_01: my words up there I preach by myself in a sense
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But I'm not learning to write sermons and I'm not learning to
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preach by myself.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm preaching with others.
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And so one of the things,
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so as you know,
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I do this thing called Crafted Preaching over at 1517.
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And one of the things we have as part of our platform there is
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something called Talking Shop.
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SPEAKER_01: And you'll see there's groups of guys who sit around.
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Sometimes they'll have cocktails in their hands,
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which I'm sorry,
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Baptists.
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SPEAKER_01: What I meant was...
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Brown water in their hands drinking Welch's grape juice and
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they'll be they'll just
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be talking about the text they'll talk about the verses they'll
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bring interpretive
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issues into it and they'll bounce ideas off of each other and I
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those things like
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SPEAKER_01: Bring Back Fond Memories.
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SPEAKER_01: One of the groups is guys I used to get together with and I can hear the
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conversations we have and it helps me think more deeply about
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the text because
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SPEAKER_01: they're seeing things I don't see.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm seeing things they don't see.
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They're saying things in a way that is going to be more helpful
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than perhaps ways
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SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say it.
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And every preacher knows you kind of find your groove,
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which really quickly becomes a rut.
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Like there's a route you're going to go that certainly becomes
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very predictable.
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SPEAKER_01: Having a group of people around you to help preach
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and learn how to sort of hone your craft is going to help you
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get out of that rut
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and it's going to help your sermons preach and pop in a
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different kind of way.
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SPEAKER_01: Not that we're aiming at like, I mean, no, I think it's okay to say it.
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SPEAKER_01: Like we want engaging sermons.
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We want to engage people with the word of God and we don't want
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them to be sitting there
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SPEAKER_01: Pastor Bradley
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um but you bring your congregation in on it so um the week
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before your sermon uh
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you send the text out to a select few people and you say what
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do you think of this
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what does this make you think of and you start to hear their
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stories and their
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thoughts on the text and that starts to inform your preaching
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and then when the
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sermon's done you find a group of people and say what'd you
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hear this week what'd
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you get out of it what did you think and you get feedback on
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your sermon and so you
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SPEAKER_01: have this communal
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um the community is participating in the sermon in a new way so
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that it's not just
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their TED talk they're getting from the pastor on Sunday
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morning but they're
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actually now engaging the text differently they're thinking
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about uh the Bible in a
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in a um homiletical fashion that is to say how are they hearing
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it how is it being
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SPEAKER_01: proclaimed how is it applying um
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SPEAKER_01: And it's more engaging.
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SPEAKER_01: So you stop thinking about the preaching event merely as an event,
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SPEAKER_01: but more as a life,
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SPEAKER_01: a life,
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SPEAKER_01: a part of the life of the whole congregation.
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SPEAKER_01: And well,
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SPEAKER_01: then,
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SPEAKER_01: and then with that part of the life of the group of pastors around you,
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we're in this preaching life together and preaching informs
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what we do and it
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SPEAKER_01: shapes what we do.
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SPEAKER_01: So we shouldn't be doing it in an isolated fashion.
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SPEAKER_01: I hope that made sense.
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SPEAKER_01: I got a little rambly there, but, um,
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SPEAKER_01: I think that was crucial.
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SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I don't have that anymore.
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SPEAKER_01: I do have an associate pastor,
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SPEAKER_01: and I find that when we sit down to work through the texts,
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SPEAKER_01: my sermons are better.
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SPEAKER_01: He's a very sharp guy.
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SPEAKER_01: And so when I hear his thoughts,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm able to think differently about the texts that I'm going to proclaim.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's so crucial.
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SPEAKER_00: It's just like,
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SPEAKER_00: it's a fallacy to assume that our Christian life is,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: Jesus,
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SPEAKER_00: my Bible,
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SPEAKER_00: and me,
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SPEAKER_00: and like,
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SPEAKER_00: that's all I need.
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SPEAKER_00: But I tend to think that sometimes, just by the way, you know,
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: As cliche as that might sound,
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SPEAKER_00: it's actually not far from the truth,
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SPEAKER_00: and I think you find that within Paul's letters.
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SPEAKER_00: Like,
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it's happening in very on-the-ground sorts of ways with people
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you're rubbing
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SPEAKER_00: shoulders with,
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SPEAKER_00: and sometimes we tend to lose that sometimes where we're just,
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SPEAKER_00: let me isolate myself.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's such a good point.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, Paul doesn't write...
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Dogmatics textbooks right he writes letters to be read in
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churches that we make
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dogmatic textbooks out of which we should that's a good
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practice I love systematic
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theology that's the way you do it but but Paul is writing from
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the word of God um
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for the people and what Paul says as it turns out is the word
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of God to the people
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SPEAKER_01: um in an inspired fashion and and there is a sense in which as pastors um
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SPEAKER_01: We are proclaiming the word of God to the people.
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SPEAKER_01: Now, we're not proclaiming infallible scripture to people.
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But this is where God has placed his word in the mouths of
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preachers and on the
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SPEAKER_01: lips of another to be placed into your ears.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I love what you said a second ago, like the church is
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Not or the Christian life is not me my Bible and Jesus but God
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has given his
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preachers to the church to deliver the word to the body and so
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the congregation the
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preacher needs to view himself not as me above the church but
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me as a part of the
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church not me my Bible and Jesus telling them what to do but
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it's me doing life
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SPEAKER_01: with them um
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And learning how the Word of God needs to be made manifest in
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this place and needs
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SPEAKER_01: to be proclaimed to these people in this place in this particular time,
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SPEAKER_01: which is why homiletics is always such a fascinating homiletics.
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I keep using the phrase the study of preaching is such an
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interesting study because
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what you're learning is you can't just drop dogmatic truths
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from the sky and walk
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SPEAKER_01: away.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's the first thing you learn out of seminary.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I remember teaching a Bible study after seminary and just,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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teaching something like I would have done it with my fellow
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classmates and people
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SPEAKER_01: being really upset and offended.
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SPEAKER_01: And like, what did I say to upset and offend them?
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And I realized like what I said wasn't just this sort of
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philosophy of God.
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but they were hearing it as God is condemning me because of
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this which I did not
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mean or God is saying something to me and I realized like when
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we preach and teach
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there's a living encounter with the word of God that comes out
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of our lips and
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we've got to steward that very well so I like to think of it
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this way uh preachers
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are uh remember Luther's freedom of the Christian the Christian
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is the dutiful
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SPEAKER_01: servant of all subject to none free lord over all subject to everyone uh
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SPEAKER_01: The preacher is sort of like the same kind of dichotomy.
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The preacher is not ever free to speak for God,
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and yet the preacher is bound to speak for God.
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SPEAKER_01: In other words,
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we don't get to just come up with whatever we want this week
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and hop on our hobby
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horse and tell people what we want as though it's God's word
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because we don't get
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SPEAKER_01: to say that.
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We are duty-bound to deliver the gifts that Christ has placed
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on our lips.
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We're duty-bound to proclaim to God's people what God has for
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them to hear.
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And so we've got to find ways to make sure they're hearing that
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faithfully.
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SPEAKER_01: And so we do that in the church.
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And that's what Paul does,
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going back to your point,
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that's what Paul does in his letters.
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SPEAKER_01: The Galatians,
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they get a pretty harsh letter of law about the gospel because
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they're believing
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SPEAKER_01: that circumcision is going to make them righteous.
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SPEAKER_01: The Corinthians get a very heartfelt,
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SPEAKER_01: loving letter for the first chapter,
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and then they just get raked over the coals because of the way
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sin is drawing them
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SPEAKER_01: away from Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: And Paul is, in every chapter of Corinthians, pulling them back to Jesus.
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We've got to know the sins and the troubles and the trials of
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our churches by
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interacting with them so that we can always be drawing them
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back to Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: That's really good, Bob.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think what you mentioned at the head of all that,
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which is something that I don't know why it's like never really
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struck me,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's just kind of hit me like when you're reading the New Testament,
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SPEAKER_00: you're basically like pulling off the shelf a collection of letters,
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SPEAKER_00: which that might sound so elementary.
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But like,
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I have a copy of,
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you know,
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Tolkien's letters,
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or I have a copy of Luther's letters.
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SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we don't treat those as
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Profound as I think we ought to and yet I have there's way more
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insights that you
16:26
SPEAKER_00: can get into Tolkien's mind or Luther's mind by reading
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SPEAKER_00: letters that he wrote to people in real life situations.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think you're not reading Tolkien's myth,
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you're reading his letters and you're finding out way more
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about what is actually
16:42
SPEAKER_00: behind the myth.
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SPEAKER_00: Some of those awesome things that you get insights on,
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SPEAKER_00: you find out from Tolkien's letters or Luther's letters.
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And I think what a profound insight that we have that you're
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getting inside,
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SPEAKER_00: we could say,
16:56
the heart of God or the mind of God when you're reading these
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letters that were
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SPEAKER_00: written to
17:00
SPEAKER_00: David Gardner
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That's not what is first given to us Which I think there's
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something profound about
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that I think Think of the book of Revelation I mean that is the
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first part of
17:36
Revelation Is you're getting God literally saying Here's what I
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see you doing
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Here's what I need you to stop doing And here's the gift I have
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for you at the end
17:43
of it I mean it's You're seeing the very heart of God For those
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particular churches
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In those particular places And then we can learn from that The
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way in which God
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SPEAKER_01: engages God
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SPEAKER_01: so that we learn how to do that for our own congregations as well.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a beautiful insight.
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SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I wanted to talk to you about preaching just because,
18:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:07
you're one who spends a lot of time thinking about the craft of
18:10
preaching,
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SPEAKER_00: if I can use that phrase.
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SPEAKER_01: I like that phrase, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: 1517.com backslash craft of preaching.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: A little plug there.
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SPEAKER_00: No, you spent a lot of time thinking about that.
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But also,
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as we've kind of chatted,
18:24
you've done your fair share of preaching.
18:28
And I think in some ways,
18:31
as someone who loves to study homiletics and hermeneutics and
18:36
I think there's always been some sense in which preaching feels
18:42
like it's somewhat
18:43
SPEAKER_00: precarious in the sense that like,
18:45
SPEAKER_00: it's not culturally favorable.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: I think it's
18:49
gone through seasons of that but what what do you what would
18:52
you say makes
18:54
preaching uniquely difficult in our present moment in 2026 what
19:00
is there something
19:01
or is there just a sense of things so to speak yeah so boy
19:06
there's a lot there's
19:07
probably a few things I gotta think this through a second I
19:09
think first I first I
19:12
SPEAKER_01: think
19:13
Preaching is not falling on as hard of times as we might think
19:17
because you'll hear
19:18
a lot of conversation about like we're entertainment driven so
19:22
we need to make the
19:22
sermon super entertaining and you'll Brad was it your article
19:26
you wrote recently on
19:27
your Substack about preachers dressing up on stage as chickens
19:31
or something like
19:32
SPEAKER_00: this like
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh, gosh.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: They dressed up as Toy Story characters.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Toy Story characters.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And so what we're saying,
19:43
SPEAKER_01: in essence,
19:43
SPEAKER_01: like what you're preaching there,
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SPEAKER_01: because everything happening in the service preaches.
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SPEAKER_01: Everything preaches.
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SPEAKER_01: And what you're preaching there.
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SPEAKER_01: The other is the word is not engaging enough.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: This word is not strong enough for you to be entertained.
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So what matters is your entertainment and we'll couch the word
19:59
of God within the
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SPEAKER_01: confines of Woody and Buzz Lightyear.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: So that it's now entertaining you.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: How bizarre this is.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Steve McLaughlin
20:31
People's ability to sit and listen and engage thoughtfully is
20:36
not as far gone as we
20:37
SPEAKER_01: might think.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: I think podcasting proves this as well.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: People are willing to listen to a two-hour podcast,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: maybe not straight through and they can pick it apart as they go,
20:48
SPEAKER_01: but people are still willing to engage ideas,
20:50
SPEAKER_01: engage thoughtful conversation.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: And so I think what's incumbent upon preachers is to
20:58
is to just be engaging and thoughtful and think through what
21:02
you're preaching don't
21:02
just get up and give your standard lecture but pursue
21:07
engagement pursue becoming
21:08
good at your craft so that's that's one thing I was just
21:10
reading I'm starting to
21:11
SPEAKER_01: read a book oh I forgot the name of it now
21:21
I'm sorry it'll come back to me but the author is one of these
21:24
great Fred Craddock
21:25
Fred Craddock's book oh yeah I have that book something about
21:29
hearing something
21:32
listening to preaching anyways you can edit that whole
21:34
miserable thing out but Fred
21:35
Craddock makes the argument that like hey you enough of this
21:40
like the sermon
21:41
doesn't need to be engaging that we're just going to get up and
21:43
we're going to
21:43
interpret text and then sit down and everyone's going to be
21:46
converted like there's
21:47
SPEAKER_01: a sense in which I think we can
21:50
SPEAKER_01: Be too boring on purpose.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we're not actually going to engage the people.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: And this is a way of tempting God to say like, um,
21:59
I'm not going to try with my sermon I'm just going to kind of
22:02
mail it in and say
22:03
like the things that I know are right and sit down that's not
22:06
how Paul works that's
22:07
not how we're called to work TED Talks I think have shown us
22:10
that people are
22:11
willing to listen to engaging material and guys there is
22:13
nothing more engaging than
22:16
the Bible I forget who said it but if your people think your
22:19
sermons are boring
22:19
SPEAKER_01: it's your fault it's not the Bible's fault the Bible is nothing if not
22:24
fascinating and people want to know it people are starving to
22:27
know how the Bible
22:28
engages cultural questions they want to know what the Bible
22:30
actually means and what
22:31
it's about and we get to tell them that it's all of Christ and
22:35
so this is a great
22:36
thing I think the culture is ready for that however in in
22:40
desires of that in a
22:41
particular way however I do think the preacher does have a
22:47
couple things working
22:48
SPEAKER_01: against them um
22:51
One of the nice things about podcasting and TED Talks is you
22:53
can take it or leave it.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: You can dismiss it and say, I like this idea.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't like this idea.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: It's an opinion I can engage.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: Where the preacher's job is to stand up and say,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: instead of by the command of Jesus,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm about to speak to you.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to give you the word of God.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: And we have to understand that people,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: preachers don't have,
23:13
SPEAKER_01: the listener doesn't have the option of not
23:16
Trusting the preacher unless the preacher has proven himself to
23:19
be untrustworthy
23:20
and I think that's really one of the big things the preacher
23:22
has working against
23:23
them is that we just don't trust authority anymore and we don't
23:28
trust people up
23:29
front unless they've earned our trust and so the preacher your
23:33
job is simply to
23:34
SPEAKER_01: speak the word of God and get out of the way um
23:38
SPEAKER_01: But the people are already coming in,
23:40
SPEAKER_01: not trusting you,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: and they're already coming in,
23:43
viewing you as one more talking head that they get to choose
23:46
whether they like what
23:46
SPEAKER_01: you said or not.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And we're not called to be talking heads.
23:51
We're called to be ambassadors of Christ,
23:54
to be proclaimers of some good news.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's not an option, what we're preaching.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: We're not free to preach whatever we want and give our opinions.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: We're bound to preach the Word of Christ.
24:07
Having helping people convincing people that what the sermon
24:11
is,
24:11
is not another TED talk.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: I think it's kind of a hard thing for us.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: We're not just another view of things.
24:17
And this is where I think denominationalism becomes kind of
24:20
tricky for us is
24:21
SPEAKER_01: because if people say I don't like this pastor's views on things,
24:25
SPEAKER_01: I'll go find a pastor whose views I like.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: But if your pastor's preaching views, he's not doing his job.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: The pastor's preaching the Word of God.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And so we don't present something optional from the pulpit.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a hard thing to figure out.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, totally.
24:44
It's this distrust of authority and people in charge where
24:49
we've been called to
24:49
SPEAKER_01: actually be trustworthy stewards,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
24:54
SPEAKER_00: I would put it like,
24:55
SPEAKER_00: we sometimes think that pastors and preachers are lecturers,
24:58
SPEAKER_00: but actually we're storytellers.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: when we're,
25:04
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:05
SPEAKER_00: whenever I'm approaching a sermon,
25:06
SPEAKER_00: I want to approach it in the sense that I want to bring people on,
25:11
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:11
SPEAKER_00: sort of a journey of catharsis,
25:14
SPEAKER_00: if I can say it that way,
25:15
SPEAKER_00: where it's like,
25:16
SPEAKER_00: here's this huge problem,
25:19
SPEAKER_00: a problem
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Chris Chris Chris
25:50
Christopher Nolan fan The first time I watched Dunkirk in
25:53
theaters World War II
25:54
movie It's roughly 90 minutes long It's one of his shorter
25:56
films It's one of his
25:58
SPEAKER_00: shorter films
26:18
and the first time I watched it I wasn't really sure what he
26:20
was doing because as
26:22
Nolan you know if you know anything about Christopher Nolan
26:24
movies he loves to do
26:25
stuff with time and it's always you know that's his shtick I
26:28
guess but if you watch
26:30
it you know there's one storyline that happens over the course
26:33
of a week and
26:33
there's another storyline that happens over the course of a day
26:36
and there's another
26:36
storyline that happens over the course of an hour and then all
26:39
of a sudden they all
26:40
SPEAKER_00: converge
26:41
at one moment and you're like it's kind of like this cathartic
26:46
sort of moment as
26:47
all of these storylines and emotions are all finding this point
26:52
where they're all
26:53
SPEAKER_00: being drawn and I think about just not like
26:58
SPEAKER_00: I think about that in terms of methodology,
27:00
SPEAKER_00: in the sense that like we can draw all of these storylines together.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: And the point where they're always going to converge is the cross.
27:08
This is always going to be where all of these stories overlap
27:12
in terms of meeting
27:13
SPEAKER_00: in terms of depth in terms of emotional payoff,
27:16
SPEAKER_00: if you will,
27:16
SPEAKER_00: in terms of actually what they mean and what they're pointing to.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: And with that.
27:23
I would say as a homiletical sort of lens everything is going
27:28
to converge on the cross.
27:30
what more compelling story are we able to tell well not much
27:35
more than that this is
27:36
where they all meet and yeah I find that so instead of like let
27:40
me show you this
27:43
you know this this thing from political urgency or social
27:48
whatever yeah actually no
27:49
let me tell you something way better and truer than whatever
27:52
else is going on
27:53
SPEAKER_00: I think that's 100% right.
28:13
um is the the urgency of now um that we see like social media
28:17
everyone's got to be
28:17
reactionary everybody's got to have an opinion and a view on
28:20
something um because
28:22
that's what matters now um and as a preacher we we have to
28:27
convince people and I
28:28
think you said it beautifully the thing that really matters is
28:31
Christ like that's
28:32
the thing that matters the most there's a there's a really
28:36
popular preacher out
28:37
SPEAKER_01: here in Southern California who
28:39
SPEAKER_01: I heard an interview with recently and he said,
28:42
I've heard preachers say that all they do is preach the gospel
28:46
and I tell them for
28:47
that they need to repent because there's a lot of things going
28:49
on that we have to
28:50
SPEAKER_01: be engaging.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life.
28:54
The preacher needs to repent for preaching the gospel because
28:57
there's something
28:58
SPEAKER_01: more relevant going on.
29:00
Where are we in the church if we're saying that there's
29:02
something more relevant than Jesus?
29:07
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that's not what he intended to say by that.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: I think what he meant was...
29:11
I pray what he meant was there's preachers who are dodging real
29:16
life issues in people's lives.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: They're dodging them and just sort of using the gospel as an excuse.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Now that obviously would be a problem.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something we have to sort of correct.
29:30
But the way we engage what's going on in the world is not by
29:34
reacting constantly to
29:36
SPEAKER_01: the latest X conversation.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: But the way we engage what's going on in the world is
29:42
SPEAKER_01: is with Christ, is going back to the wisdom of God who is Jesus.
29:46
So this last week,
29:47
and maybe I don't want to use myself as an illustration,
29:50
but I'm going to.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: This past week,
29:53
SPEAKER_01: timestamping this thing,
29:54
SPEAKER_01: there was a shooting in the Islamic Center in San Diego.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: A couple guys,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: wicked guys,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: kind of decided to take it upon themselves to go after Muslims,
30:06
and they wrote like a 75-page manifesto about the people they
30:11
were going to kill.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: And so what do you say about that?
30:14
SPEAKER_01: You kind of got to talk about that from the pulpit.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: You can't pretend like there wasn't this horrifying shooting,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: even if it is of people from a different faith,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: a horrifying shooting from these evil men.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: How do you engage this?
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Well,
30:28
it so happens that this past Sunday in our church was the
30:32
Sunday of Pentecost and
30:33
so we celebrate Christ giving the Holy Spirit to the church and
30:37
then the Parthians
30:38
and Medes and everybody you list all the names of the people
30:40
who are coming to
30:40
faith well in this manifesto these guys listed all the people
30:44
that they hated and
30:46
all the people they thought were needed to be removed from the
30:49
earth so that they
30:49
could start kind of their new build their new kingdom of evil
30:54
or whatever I don't
30:54
SPEAKER_01: know but
30:56
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, isn't this interesting?
30:58
SPEAKER_01: The church's way of engaging different cultures,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: different people,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: even different faiths,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: the church's way of engaging this,
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Christ's way of engaging this,
31:08
is by pushing his church into the world to proclaim the
31:10
forgiveness of sins and to
31:11
SPEAKER_01: draw all people to himself.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: And he quotes Joel,
31:15
SPEAKER_01: Peter on the day of Pentecost quotes Joel as saying,
31:18
and the Spirit of God would come so that everyone who calls on
31:20
the name of the Lord
31:21
SPEAKER_01: would be saved.
31:22
Whereas the spirit of the shooters and the spirit really of
31:25
this kind of culture
31:26
that's beginning to atomize itself constantly and sort of
31:30
define itself by what
31:31
SPEAKER_01: it's not and who it's against,
31:34
SPEAKER_01: that attitude is everyone who disagrees with me should be removed.
31:38
So you've got these two counter – this preaching of the gospel
31:42
that produces this
31:43
heart that says everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will
31:45
be saved versus the
31:47
spirit of the culture which is saying everyone who disagrees
31:49
with me must be
31:50
SPEAKER_01: removed.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And maybe not in these violent,
31:52
wicked ways but certainly like in the cancel culture or in the
31:55
way we do our
31:56
SPEAKER_01: politics now that everyone we disagree with needs to be removed.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Segregated from,
32:02
whereas Christ calls us to sort of dive in headlong with
32:05
preaching of the gospel
32:06
SPEAKER_01: and the proclamation of law and repentance and the forgiveness of sins.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: The whole point being,
32:12
SPEAKER_01: here we have a cultural moment that needs to be addressed,
32:16
but we address it not by saying shooting is bad or Muslims are
32:20
getting what they
32:21
SPEAKER_01: deserve or some nonsense like this.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: We engage it by saying, hey, Christ came to die for all of these people.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: and our heart is shaped by that.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: It's not shaped by the wickedness of the culture around us.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes we have to,
32:37
and I do think also we have to pick and choose what are the
32:40
cultural moments that
32:41
SPEAKER_01: are worth engaging and what of them are the sort of rage bait of the day.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: And do we really need to engage that?
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, do I really need to engage every week?
32:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm wrestling with that though, I really am.
33:13
We did a show on some similar stuff on Whitehorse a few months
33:17
ago and the producer
33:18
SPEAKER_01: afterwards came up to me and I was like,
33:20
SPEAKER_01: look,
33:20
SPEAKER_01: the culture doesn't drive anything.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: We preach the gospel.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: That's what we do.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And he came up to me afterwards.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: He's like, I'm not sure I agree.
33:26
And I've really been wrestling with what he said because he
33:30
came from the point of
33:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
33:31
what about like with racism in America and the race issues back
33:34
in the 60s?
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't the pastor have responsibility to preach to that?
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: And you think about what about abortion?
33:41
SPEAKER_01: or what about gay marriage or something like this?
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't the pastor have a responsibility to preach to that?
33:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think yes,
33:47
but is the responsibility to side with a particular cultural
33:52
view or is the
33:53
responsibility to proclaim law and gospel into that for the
33:58
sake of the hearer in a
34:00
SPEAKER_01: different sort of way than just us versus them?
34:04
Because I think my fear is that when the cultural moments are
34:09
driving your preaching,
34:11
SPEAKER_01: Your preaching becomes very quickly,
34:12
SPEAKER_01: I thank God that I'm not like sinners over there,
34:14
SPEAKER_01: or you do a lot of examining of specs in other people's eyes.
34:19
When Christ has called me and you as pastors to proclaim
34:22
repentance and the
34:23
SPEAKER_01: forgiveness of sins to the people in the seats,
34:25
SPEAKER_01: right?
34:26
SPEAKER_01: So how do I engage them with that stuff?
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
34:30
SPEAKER_00: and I think that's a good point to make,
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Bob,
34:32
because I think preaching law and gospel isn't just meant to
34:37
expose them over
34:39
SPEAKER_00: there.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: It's meant to expose us right where we sit.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think any cultural moment that we,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: as you said,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: that we choose to engage or that we perceive that,
34:50
SPEAKER_00: no,
34:51
SPEAKER_00: this is worth bringing into the homiletical moment—
34:55
SPEAKER_00: It has to be done, I think, through that lens.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: I think you're right.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't think like every single...
35:02
We're not opening up the newspapers and finding our sermon
35:05
texts from there.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: That would be, you know, just political...
35:09
Homological suicide,
35:10
if you will,
35:10
that would just be terrible for your church.
35:14
But it doesn't also mean that we walk through life like
35:17
ostriches with our heads in
35:18
SPEAKER_00: the sand either.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
35:21
I don't think that either of those extremes are what Paul calls
35:27
Timothy to do,
35:29
SPEAKER_00: especially like thinking about the pastoral epistles.
35:33
He,
35:34
you know,
35:35
the proverbial saying,
35:36
you know,
35:36
he says,
35:37
you know,
35:37
preach the word.
35:39
um in season and out of season in season right right right
35:42
regardless of what
35:43
moment you're in there is a word that is relevant and it's the
35:47
word that's
35:47
evergreen uh it's the word of the gospel and that's why we
35:50
continue to preach it
35:52
that's why we continue to proclaim it I think I I've thought a
35:55
lot about this too
35:56
Bob and I I I think as pastors sometimes we can have so much we
36:03
can almost
36:04
SPEAKER_00: White Knuckle are sermons and what we want them to mean.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: To the point that we kill them.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's good.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: And a long time ago, I wrote an essay for Mockingbird.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to, again, use myself as an illustration, but you did.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: So I guess I will.
36:23
I wrote this piece and it was all about this French literary
36:27
critic who had this
36:28
SPEAKER_00: notion of the death of the author,
36:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:31
SPEAKER_00: and for work to survive.
36:34
the author has to die to what its meaning is and we can find
36:38
this through you know
36:39
all sorts of things um you know like did you know did Stanley
36:46
Kubrick really want
36:47
The Shining to be an apology for you know the moon landing well
36:54
I don't know but
36:55
SPEAKER_00: that's what maybe Kubrick did with the movie um so
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, at least some people think that he did.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: But like,
37:06
so these people are deriving meaning from something that maybe
37:09
the original author
37:10
SPEAKER_00: didn't intend.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: And I think for preachers,
37:15
we are given this amazing responsibility where we can die to
37:19
what maybe we want the
37:21
sermon to mean by entrusting it to the Holy Spirit who's going
37:24
to bring it back.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: to the people exactly where they are.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: So we don't have to white-knuckle the grip over meaning or application,
37:33
SPEAKER_00: those very popular words that are used in homiletic classes.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: You've got to apply these certain things.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
37:42
SPEAKER_00: but also the ultimate applicator of preaching is the Holy Spirit,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: who always ensures that the Word never returns void,
37:50
SPEAKER_00: no matter what season we're in,
37:52
SPEAKER_00: no matter what moment we're in.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: So honestly,
37:56
like my job as a preacher is as you said preach God's word and
38:00
get out of the way
38:00
or we could say deliver the goods and then die because that's
38:05
good your your
38:07
responsibility at that point is yes discipleship classes yes
38:11
blah blah all those
38:12
things but you know we could just thinking like this we're
38:17
dying to whatever we
38:20
SPEAKER_00: I've had some people come up to me and um
38:23
SPEAKER_00: at churches sometimes where that's like, oh, I love your sermon.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: And they'll tell me what they get out of it.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, that's not what I was hoping you would get.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: I was nowhere near what I was trying to say.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: And yet somehow, yeah, that's good.
38:37
But there's part of me that's,
38:39
I've,
38:39
this is,
38:40
talk about things I've learned.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: The thing I've learned is not to like,
38:44
get all up in arms at that individual because they learned
38:47
something that I didn't
38:49
SPEAKER_00: want them to learn.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the Holy Spirit was leading.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if they're going off into some heresy, maybe I would address it.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: But at least if it's not heretical, you can win.
39:00
The Holy Spirit is bringing these people this truth in their
39:05
particular moment.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: And I don't have to white-knuckle meaning for them.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: That's the Holy Spirit's job.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: That's a great way of saying it.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
39:14
SPEAKER_01: that's,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: I think every preacher's had that experience where they're like,
39:17
SPEAKER_01: you heard me say what?
39:19
SPEAKER_01: I didn't, I didn't say that.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: But this is how, this is how it landed for them.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: And it was exactly what the Spirit wanted them to hear.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: And so,
39:26
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
39:26
SPEAKER_01: you just kind of get up there and deliver your,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: and you start to,
39:30
SPEAKER_01: it does make this,
39:31
SPEAKER_01: the homiletical task,
39:32
SPEAKER_01: it makes preaching a little bit easier.
39:34
I'm going to preach the text and let the Holy Spirit do His
39:36
work and just kind of
39:37
SPEAKER_01: get out of the way.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really good.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: I liked a phrase you used a little bit ago.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: Is this cultural moment worthy of the homiletical moment?
39:53
I think that is a brilliant phrase because what's worthy of
39:56
being preached this Sunday?
39:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, Jesus Christ alone is worthy of being preached.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: in that moment is worthy.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: He's the only one worthy of dominating my pulpit.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: And if I'm going to bring in what's happening within the culture,
40:12
is it going to remove the worth of Christ and replace it with
40:14
something else?
40:17
SPEAKER_01: That's a really I'm going to be chewing on that phrase for a while.
40:19
What's worthy of being in the pulpit this Sunday is what's
40:22
happening outside
40:23
SPEAKER_01: something we have to address?
40:25
SPEAKER_01: Or is it something that's just a distraction?
40:28
SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: That's that's a really interesting way of thinking.
40:31
um yeah helpful very helpful to go to go back to what we were
40:36
kind of talking about
40:36
SPEAKER_00: at the beginning well let me ask you another question
40:41
We were talking about the precariousness of preaching and maybe
40:46
that's not always
40:47
the case and maybe it just feels that way because we're
40:49
preachers and sometimes
40:51
SPEAKER_00: preachers are somewhat self-involved.
40:53
But what's a pressure that you would describe as unique to 2026
41:01
that wasn't unique 20 years ago?
41:04
SPEAKER_00: We could immediately talk about technology, social media, the level of...
41:11
SPEAKER_00: I think certain things are more
41:44
The political The politicization I can't say the word
41:51
Politicizing everything Can't
41:53
SPEAKER_01: say the word Has become a real significant issue That
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Everyone is viewing everything within the realms of politics.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: So,
42:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:04
my wife doesn't like LeBron James because he has a particular
42:06
stance on something
42:07
SPEAKER_01: like,
42:07
SPEAKER_01: okay,
42:08
SPEAKER_01: but what does that have to do with him playing basketball,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: right?
42:13
There's politics has infiltrated every conversation and the way
42:19
we view anything that we do.
42:21
And so we have to find a way to have Christ shine above all of
42:26
that,
42:26
I think.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: And that's certainly one of the things that has changed.
42:32
I think the conversation and maybe again is something I just
42:35
wasn't aware of,
42:36
but I've really been captivated lately by Carl Truman's work
42:42
and the rise and
42:43
triumph of the modern self and just the awareness I have now
42:47
that I didn't have 20
42:48
SPEAKER_01: years ago.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: of how self-involved, like you said, preachers are.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: Everybody is, and everyone is kind of the center of their own universe.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: And this has been this way,
42:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
42:58
SPEAKER_01: for decades upon decades,
42:59
SPEAKER_01: but just the naming of it has helped me see it better lately.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: Identity politics drives everything.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: And so we have to address those kinds of things.
43:10
I don't remember thinking about transgenderism at all in 2006,
43:16
apart from like
43:18
some random thought or comment but now it's it's the political
43:23
hot touch point um I
43:25
SPEAKER_01: don't know I things have changed uh I think COVID changed a lot I think
43:30
divisiveness within the communities we live in is much stronger
43:34
and starker than it
43:35
was uh prior to 2026 I think that was really a touch point um
43:41
for our country the
43:42
SPEAKER_01: church has to be aware of um
43:46
SPEAKER_01: Should I get a shot or not?
43:47
SPEAKER_01: That's a political question.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: It's not a health question any longer.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, just the politicization of everything.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Politicization, political AT, making everything political.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: You got it.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: You got that.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: That's a new word.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you'll get this reference.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: I've often referred to this as like the first take problem,
44:09
SPEAKER_00: where,
44:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:10
SPEAKER_00: like Stephen A.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: Smith and Skip Bayless,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: back when that show was like the height of what ESPN was producing,
44:18
SPEAKER_00: they would have arguments for hours.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: about LeBron versus Jordan.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: This was always the one they would go to.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Who's the goat?
44:25
SPEAKER_00: And if you're a LeBron guy, you obviously can't be a Jordan guy.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: And that sense of dichotomy, like you would say politicization, I agree.
44:38
I also think it's like this notion of everything is being
44:41
dichotomized or binaried.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're a Jordan guy, you can't be a LeBron guy.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: And automatically that means I have to dislike you.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: You clearly don't understand basketball.
44:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
44:58
And that I think has definitely become something that you feel
45:02
all the time.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: Like there's no nuance to any conversation where like if I were having a
45:11
SPEAKER_00: conversation about Jordan and LeBron,
45:13
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't just focus on them as individuals.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: But hey, let's focus on how drastically.
45:20
The game of basketball has changed in the time in which those
45:24
two guys were at the
45:24
SPEAKER_00: peak of their NBA powers.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Like if you look at the tape of the 1998 NBA Finals,
45:31
SPEAKER_00: and then you put on the tape of the 2016 NBA Finals,
45:34
SPEAKER_00: it would be like watching a completely different game.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't even be the same.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: You couldn't even compare them in a lot of senses.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: And some people would say, oh, it was so better back then.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know if it was better, but it's definitely different.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely different.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: And,
45:50
SPEAKER_00: like,
45:50
we can have a much more nuanced conversation about both of
45:54
their athletic prowesses
45:57
SPEAKER_00: by just noting the fact that we don't have to,
46:00
SPEAKER_00: like,
46:00
SPEAKER_00: you said,
46:01
SPEAKER_00: like,
46:01
SPEAKER_00: identity,
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Paul,
46:02
we don't have to identify with a certain camp and then
46:05
automatically ostracize or
46:07
SPEAKER_00: find opposition in those in the opposite side.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: Because I think, and then to bring this home theologically,
46:16
SPEAKER_00: The gospel doesn't do that either.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: The law and the gospel don't do that either.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: The law and the gospel don't know of us versus them.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: It just knows everyone's a sinner.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: Romans 3, there is non-righteous.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't partition us.
46:32
I was preaching about this because a couple of weeks ago I
46:33
preached about...
46:36
SPEAKER_00: That moment with Cornelius in Acts chapter 10 and where,
46:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:41
SPEAKER_00: the the wideness of God's mercy,
46:43
SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
46:43
SPEAKER_00: is opening up for Peter.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: You know,
46:45
he sees the vision of the all the pork and the bacon that he
46:48
gets to eat now
46:49
SPEAKER_00: because Jesus and,
46:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:51
SPEAKER_00: that's not really what the vision means,
46:52
SPEAKER_00: but it's part of what it means.
46:53
But also now he's learning like the church is made up of all of
46:57
these people from
46:58
SPEAKER_00: all the corners of the earth.
46:59
And then like the first thing that he explains to Cornelius in
47:02
his household is
47:04
SPEAKER_00: ours is a God who shows no partiality.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:07
Like there is no partiality for one group versus the other when
47:13
it comes to the law
47:14
SPEAKER_00: and the gospel.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: No, it knows only sinners.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: And only sinners are then given that word that he ends it on.
47:20
Everyone who believes on this name of Jesus receives the
47:26
forgiveness of sins.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: There's no dichotomy there.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: It's a diagnosis and the offer of deliverance.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's great.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Not a dichotomy, a diagnosis.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: What is the line in Romans,
47:40
SPEAKER_01: is it nine,
47:42
SPEAKER_01: that God has condemned all,
47:43
SPEAKER_01: that he might have mercy on all or something like this?
47:47
SPEAKER_01: The unifying thing that we have...
47:51
is that we have a God who's merciful to sinners and it turns
47:53
out we're the sinners
47:54
all of us and that starting point right uh the starting point
47:58
in all conversation
48:01
um is not that I'm superior than you to you because I got it
48:04
figured out um I'm on
48:06
the right side and you're on the wrong side but rather uh God
48:10
had mercy on me who's
48:11
the chief of sin I mean this is the way Paul talks like God had
48:13
mercy on me who's
48:14
SPEAKER_01: the chief of sinners um
48:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we start to say,
48:18
SPEAKER_01: like,
48:18
SPEAKER_01: okay,
48:18
SPEAKER_01: so now I can look at anybody,
48:20
SPEAKER_01: like that reference to the Islamic Center shooting.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: Those Islamic Center people, they have the wrong faith.
48:26
But it's not because I'm right and they're wrong that they have
48:29
the wrong faith.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: It's because Christ died for them and they don't believe it.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: And so we've got to preach it to them, just as it's been preached to me.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: And by the grace of God, I've come to faith in it.
48:41
and so the driving factor is not making sure everybody's voting
48:47
the right way and
48:48
SPEAKER_01: on the right side and making sure the culture's fixed,
48:51
but rather what drives us is to say the sinners are saved by
48:56
grace alone and we've
48:57
SPEAKER_01: got the gospel that does it.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: And that's what drives us.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
49:01
I think that I remember saying a few years ago there was
49:05
something that came up in
49:06
SPEAKER_01: the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and they said we had a convention
49:10
SPEAKER_01: in which it was said that it was a champion.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: The convention was a victory for conservatism.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: And I thought to myself, that's just the wrong way.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm a very conservative guy.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm significantly conservative.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: But the aim wasn't victory for conservatism.
49:29
The aim was preaching Christ and him crucified to sinners,
49:33
conservative and liberal alike.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: And my fear is that
49:38
That kind of dichotomy between conservative and liberal within
49:43
the church is
49:45
SPEAKER_01: necessary to a certain extent.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: But as soon as it becomes an identity marker as opposed to baptism,
49:53
SPEAKER_01: which is the real identity marker,
49:58
SPEAKER_01: we're doing the church's work in the words of the world,
50:01
SPEAKER_01: is maybe a way of saying it.
50:03
SPEAKER_01: We're using the world's categories and
50:06
um and not the biblical categories and now someone said to me
50:10
well if you talk that
50:11
way you're just talking like a conservative fine if that's what
50:14
you want to label
50:14
it that's fine uh but the biblical categories guide everything
50:19
the biblical word
50:19
guides everything the preaching the teaching the thinking the
50:22
the the social
50:23
activity it's it's guided by the word and God's call to me um
50:27
period and not
50:29
SPEAKER_01: whether this fits the right or the left's party agenda um
50:33
because it's the word that's it's Christ who's Lord it's Christ
50:36
who's Lord over all
50:37
of it and so Christ alone is what we proclaim and to get people
50:42
back to Christ and
50:43
if that means tearing down conservative and liberal idols
50:45
that's what we have to do
50:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know I don't fear I'm just rambling so I apologize
50:53
SPEAKER_00: No, I think you're right.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: I think as I read scripture sometimes,
50:57
and I'm remembering all of these things that either I was
51:00
implicitly or explicitly
51:02
SPEAKER_00: taught on how to read the Bible,
51:04
SPEAKER_00: I often am like,
51:05
SPEAKER_00: I think that sometimes we latch on to the wrong lessons.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: when it comes to the Bible,
51:10
SPEAKER_00: which,
51:10
SPEAKER_00: ironically enough,
51:12
SPEAKER_00: is,
51:13
SPEAKER_00: I think,
51:13
SPEAKER_00: exactly what the people in the Bible were faced with,
51:16
SPEAKER_00: too.
51:17
SPEAKER_00: They're learning and latching on to the wrong lessons,
51:20
SPEAKER_00: which is so fascinating to me,
51:24
SPEAKER_00: that beloved story.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, go ahead.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: The law, sorry, I'm going to interrupt you real quick.
51:29
They latch on to the part of the law that causes their neighbor
51:31
to repent.
51:32
right the laws given to drive you to repentance but the lesson
51:36
I learned is like
51:36
how bad everyone else is in life it's like that's that's not
51:40
the that's not the
51:41
lesson sorry I interrupted you that's really well a good a good
51:45
example just to
51:45
follow up on that is like just everything that is involved with
51:50
quote-unquote how
51:51
to keep the sabbath and like Jesus shows up and he's like you
51:54
you've missed the
51:55
SPEAKER_00: point of this whole thing like yeah
51:58
SPEAKER_00: But like the one I was thinking of in my head is like,
52:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:01
SPEAKER_00: Numbers 21,
52:02
SPEAKER_00: we have that beautiful scene where,
52:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:05
there's all the venomous snakes or whatever in the wilderness
52:09
and it's killing
52:11
SPEAKER_00: people,
52:11
it's causing people to become incapacitated left and right and
52:15
so Moses is crying
52:16
SPEAKER_00: out to God and
52:17
he calls him to make that bronze serpent and puts it on the
52:21
staff and lift it up
52:24
and it's a beautiful picture Jesus is going to use it when he
52:26
talks to Nicodemus he
52:28
used the same sort of language that just as the serpent was
52:31
lifted up in the
52:32
wilderness so I'm going to be lifted up beautiful
52:34
Christological moment but I think
52:36
what some people forget is that that bronze serpent ended up
52:40
becoming an idol for
52:41
SPEAKER_00: the people of God because in like 2nd Kings I think it's like
52:46
1718 or 19 it's around there during the revival that happens I
52:54
think under Hezekiah
52:56
they find this idol they find this bronze thing that had become
53:00
this enshrined
53:02
SPEAKER_00: thing that people love to go to.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: They're almost making pilgrimages to and worshiping to.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's like,
53:08
SPEAKER_00: once again,
53:09
SPEAKER_00: they're learning the wrong lessons from what that was meant to tell them.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: And now they're idolizing this thing.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think it's Hezekiah,
53:18
SPEAKER_00: but whoever the king was in that story,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: he comes and he takes it and he throws it down and smashes it.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: And I remember I preached on that several years ago.
53:29
I just think about like imagine going to Alabama or let's let's
53:33
say Indiana because
53:34
they just won the national the college football national
53:38
championship and imagine
53:39
going to them and taking that crystal ball that they used to
53:42
have when you know
53:43
imagine the crystal ball in the BCS days of college football
53:46
you take that thing
53:47
that's so beloved so coveted because it's like we want it and
53:50
then just smashing it
53:51
SPEAKER_00: into pieces and
53:52
SPEAKER_00: And everyone's shocked, everyone is dismayed.
53:56
SPEAKER_00: Like that,
53:57
SPEAKER_00: even exponentially more,
53:59
SPEAKER_00: because for hundreds of years,
54:01
SPEAKER_00: everyone and their grandma has been praying to this bronze serpent.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: And now this king's like, No, you've missed the point.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: He throws it down.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we we often learn the wrong lessons.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:12
And that's where I think that that's where we come back to the
54:18
Bible diagnoses us
54:20
SPEAKER_00: and it diagnoses all of us.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: And yet the gospel is the same word that delivers.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: And that's always what's happening.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: Repeat on repeat.
54:29
We don't need to draw all of these other things because if we
54:33
focus on this,
54:35
SPEAKER_00: we're going to miss this,
54:37
SPEAKER_00: if that makes sense.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: We can miss the lesson that we're meant to learn.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
54:42
so where the cross then becomes a symbol of power and authority
54:45
in the world as
54:46
opposed to a symbol of repentance and forgiveness and the
54:48
nature of the Lamb who
54:50
SPEAKER_01: sheds His blood.
54:52
SPEAKER_01: We've done this too.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really interesting.
54:56
And so the lesson we learn from the Bible is not that it's the
54:59
Word of God to drive
55:04
SPEAKER_01: us to death and resurrection,
55:05
SPEAKER_01: to repent and believe the good news,
55:07
SPEAKER_01: but rather the Bible is...
55:10
Society's moral standard by which we need to teach the people
55:13
how to be better and
55:14
SPEAKER_01: you've kind of missed the point if you haven't gotten to Christ,
55:16
SPEAKER_01: right?
55:16
SPEAKER_01: You haven't used it to the way Christ has actually given it.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, boy, that's really good.
55:23
SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
55:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: and this is the job of the preacher then,
55:29
SPEAKER_01: to smash the idols,
55:30
SPEAKER_01: to take the BCS trophy and to shatter it to pieces.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: Hezekiah becomes a great model of preaching for us to say,
55:36
SPEAKER_01: like,
55:37
SPEAKER_01: you have used the gift of God,
55:40
SPEAKER_01: which every sin is,
55:41
SPEAKER_01: right?
55:41
SPEAKER_01: It's a distortion.
55:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a distorting of God's gifts for the wrong ends.
55:46
And so now I need to take that away from you and replace it
55:49
with Jesus Christ,
55:52
SPEAKER_01: who alone can save you.
55:53
I've often thought that that's a good way to think that or to
55:56
understand that
55:57
SPEAKER_00: that's what the writer of Hebrews does.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly right.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: He's just flicking off these little trinkets off the mantle.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, you love angels?
56:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, Jesus is better than angels.
56:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you love Moses?
56:11
SPEAKER_00: He's better than Moses.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: He's just flicking off all of these beloveds.
56:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a beautiful scenario.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: That's a great way of summarizing Hebrews.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: He's just showing that Jesus is better.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: All these great saints of yours,
56:22
SPEAKER_01: all the saints Oh they're great,
56:24
SPEAKER_01: you know what they were doing?
56:24
SPEAKER_01: They were looking to Christ Everyone's looking to Christ Yeah
56:30
SPEAKER_00: I would say it's Apollos,
56:33
SPEAKER_00: but if it's Apollos or whoever wrote Hebrews,
56:36
SPEAKER_00: he's kind of showing us what preaching is.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: Because I think in our moment,
56:42
SPEAKER_00: I think you would agree,
56:43
SPEAKER_00: we have a lot of idols,
56:45
we have a lot of trinkets and trophies that we love to put on
56:48
mantelpieces as like,
56:50
SPEAKER_00: this is it.
56:52
SPEAKER_00: And yet we end up clinging,
56:54
we learn the wrong lessons and we end up clinging to those
56:57
instead of clinging to
56:58
SPEAKER_00: Christ.
56:59
And that's where the law and the gospel come into play because
57:01
it exposes that and
57:03
SPEAKER_00: brings us to the feet of Jesus,
57:05
SPEAKER_00: which is where he wants us anyways.
57:07
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: That's beautifully said.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: Very good.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, amen.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: Bob, what are you working on?
57:33
What are some things that you want to promote or where can
57:36
people find you?
57:37
SPEAKER_01: You can find me in a few places.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm serving on the Board of Directors for Whitehorse Inn.
57:43
SPEAKER_01: That's not true.
57:44
SPEAKER_01: Let me double back.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm serving on the Board of Directors for 1517.
57:48
I work on a website called Craft of Preaching that I really
57:51
encourage the pastors
57:52
SPEAKER_01: out there to check out.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to help you with your weekly task.
57:57
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of fun.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: I do.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: I do.
58:01
I am one of the voices on Whitehorse and I'm the Lutheran guy
58:04
on Whitehorse.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's been just an incredible opportunity.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm still not sure why they let me do that,
58:09
but it's a real blessing to be on there with three of the most
58:12
brilliant men I've
58:12
SPEAKER_01: ever met in my life.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: Walter Strickland, Mike Horton and Justin Holcomb.
58:16
SPEAKER_01: Those guys are just just incredibly pastoral.
58:21
theologians and so I encourage you guys to check the stuff
58:23
we're doing out there
58:24
incidentally you'll appreciate this Bradley we're doing a whole
58:27
show on Christopher
58:28
Nolan how about that that was fantastic that's a lot of fun so
58:35
that'll be coming up
58:35
I think in June right around the time the new Nolan movie comes
58:39
out that's going to
58:40
SPEAKER_01: be coming out so check that out
58:43
Yeah,
58:43
and then just preaching and teaching,
58:45
serving my church and loving it.
58:46
So clcfamily.org if you want to check out the stuff going on at
58:50
Community Lutheran
58:51
SPEAKER_01: in Escondido in San Marcos,
58:52
SPEAKER_01: California,
58:53
SPEAKER_01: you can find me there.
58:54
SPEAKER_01: So plenty of irons in the fire.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: Awesome, Bob.
58:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time today.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: It's always good to chat with you,
59:01
SPEAKER_00: and I'll be praying for you in the weeks and months to come,
59:04
but we'll have to not make this as long until your next
59:08
appearance on the show.
59:09
SPEAKER_01: I would love it.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: This is great.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed it.
59:11
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Brad.
59:12
Thanks Bob Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the
59:16
Ministry Minded
59:17
SPEAKER_00: Podcast Again,
59:18
thanks to Bob for hopping on this show It was great to have him
59:21
on Great to talk
59:22
with him again after a little while and catch up with him If
59:24
you want to connect
59:25
SPEAKER_00: with him,
59:25
all the links to where you can find Bob's stuff is going to be
59:29
in the show notes
59:29
SPEAKER_00: for this podcast
59:30
SPEAKER_00: I will see you on the next episode Blessings