Latest / The Front / Hedley Thomas’ new podcast investigation, The Poisoned Wife

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Hedley Thomas’ new podcast investigation, The Poisoned Wife · The Front

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: It's Friday, August twenty one, twenty twenty six. Rental tenants
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: in some of Labour's most marginal seats have already absorbed
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: annual rent rises of up to six and a half
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars, and now rents are set to head even higher.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: That's an exclusive live now at the Australian dot com
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: dot au. Taxpayers are forking over seventeen billion dollars each
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: year in corporate welfare. That's bailouts, tax concessions and other assistants.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: And that comes after Canberra's gross debts past one trillion dollars.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: The government says Labour's actually brought debt down. Who killed
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Roslyn McQueen? Today is launch day for something very special
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: here at the Australian and New Headley Thomas cold case investigation.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: The Poisoned Wife is a podcast examination of how a
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: thirty year old pregnant mother died of strychnine poisoning in
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: her own home and nobody has been brought to justice.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Hedley and his fellow investigator Karina Berger are here. In
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: just a moment, Roslyn McQueen was thirty years old, the
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: mother of a toddler named Jody, and pregnant with her
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: second child when she died suddenly in nineteen eighty six.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: She died in agonizing death from strychnine poisoning, but for
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: three months police were unaware of how she had died.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: It was a mystery.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: This is Hedley Thomas, the Australian's National Chief correspondent with
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: producer Karina Berger. Headley has been investigating what happened to Roz.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Her husband Ray suggested that she had cancer, and then
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: he suggested that perhaps she had depression and she was
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: a big warrior. But fortunately toxicology tests that were done
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: soon after her body was taken to the mortuary came
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: back showing that in fact, a massive dose of strychnine,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: this incredibly powerful poison, had been ingested by Roz and
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: she would have died in a fairly brief window of time,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: in a huge amount of pain.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Her toddler was playing by her feet when she died. Karina,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: what do you know about who Roz was and what
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: sort of mother she was.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: We've been speaking to Rosa's best friend from the time,
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Wendy Beatty, and she's been giving us some beautiful insights
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: into Roz.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: She always wanted to be a mother.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Always she doated on her little girl, Jodi, and the
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: new baby she was carrying, a little boy that she
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: was going to name Christopher, was just going to complete
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: her family. So she was obviously a very dedicated mother
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: to her daughter and looking forward to having a new baby.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: And she'd also been a very happy young woman. According
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: to Wendy, they'd worked together in banks in Bendigo, they'd
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: flatted together, and they'd had a lot of fun in
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: their twenties.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: This story is so reminiscent to me Headley of the
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Teacher's Pet, the investigation that you launched in twenty eighteen
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: into the murder of Lynette Simms, a woman living in
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Sydney who was married to a man called Chris Dawson.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: Convicted murderer Chris Dawson will wake up this morning in
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: a small concrete prison cell after he was found guilty
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: of killing his first wife, Lynette, forty years ago.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: One of the similarities is that in both of these
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: cases there was someone else on the scene, a teenage babysitter.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: In this instance, it was a young woman called Donna,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: who was actually a child. She was sixteen years old
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: at the time. What do we know about Donna and
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: what was going on in the family home.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Donna was living with her mum and dad, Alfred Glennis,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: in a place called Kangaroo Flat, not far from Lockwood,
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: and she had left school at about the age of fourteen.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: She was working at kmart as a shop assistant. But
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: she'd become good friends with both Ray and ros McQueen,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: and she would help with babysitting and chores around the house,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: and she was very close to Rose. They had a
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: nice connection. Ray McQueen, however, it seems took a very
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: significant interest in her. In the last year of Ross's life,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Ray McQueen, Ross's husband became infatuated with this girl. Witnesses
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: saw it. Ray's wife, Roz saw it, and certainly Donna
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: saw it too, and she had feelings for him. She
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: didn't disguise those to the police when they began investigating.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: She was very candid, very open about her love as
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: she saw it at that very tender age for Ray McQueen.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: So it's complicated. The police believed that Ray McQueen murdered
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: his wife Rose, so that he could be with Donna,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: and Donna after Roz died, wanted to be with Ray
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: a year later. By the time an inquest was on,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Donna had certainly changed her mind. I'll just point out
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: the difference in their ages. Clear. When Rose McQueen died,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: her husband, Ray was thirty three years old, Donna was sixteen.
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: You don't feel it at the time because you're young
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: and certainly had no full understanding. But I've had a
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: lot of years to think about it, you know, a
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: lot of years of guilt, a lot of years is
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: self analyzing as to what type of person I was
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: back then and what part I played.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: This is such a marker of how much society has
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: changed in the past four decades, isn't it, Karina. I
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: think in the nineteen eighties, these kinds of what we
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: would now think of was completely inappropriate relationships between adults
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: and people who are legally children, were I suppose glossed
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: over or looked away from. What do we know about
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: how that connection between Ray and Donna developed after Roz died.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: Well, very soon after Roz died, Ray and Donna were
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: in touch. Within days of Roz's funeral, Ray had told
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Donna that he loved her, and within eleven weeks of
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: Roz's death, Ray effectively proposed to Donna. He indicated to
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: her that he didn't want to be alone for the
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: rest of his life. He wanted to repartner, and he
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: thought that he'd found his new partner and that it
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: was Donna, and he asked her, according to Donna, if
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: she would move in with him and live with him
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: in a man and wife type relationship.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Headley mentioned that the police believed that Ray McQueen had
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: murdered his wife. The coroner believed that too, and what
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: seems to me quite a remarkable finding. The coroner actually
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: charged Ray with murder. Karina, you're a very experienced lawyer.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: You've got a lot of experience with coronial investigations. How
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: unusual was.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: That, Well, looking at the finding today, it's incredibly unusual.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: It's just an amazing finding. The coroner was so strong
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: in his words. He found that Ray McQueen had murdered
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: Rose McQueen. He discounted all other possibilities like suicide or
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: an accidental ingestion of the strictnine and he was absolutely
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: convinced that Ray McQueen was responsible for Roslind's murder, and
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: as you mentioned, Claire, he did go on to charge
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: Ray with murder and he committed Ray to stand trial
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: in the Supreme Court in late nineteen eighty seven.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: The trial kind of fizzled out though, why well.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: In the early stages of the legal process, the prosecution
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: and the defense teams were arguing about various pieces of evidence,
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: and Justice Gobo, who was presiding over the pre trial
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: arguments at that stage, had to make some findings about
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: whether the evidence should be put before a jury or not.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: There was no jury impaneled at the time this was
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: all happening pre jury, and Justice Gobo found that the
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: evidence was very prejudicial towards Ray McQueen. He also weighed
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: up the potential relevance and evidential value of these pieces
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: of evidence and came to the conclusion that much of
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: it should be excluded. And we think that that's caused
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: the prosecution to reconsider whether they wanted to keep going
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: with the case against Ray.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Helly, you guys have reported that Ray is still alive,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: living a quiet life in Victoria. Did he speak to
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: you and what about Donna.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Ray McQueen has been invited to talk to us and
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: I've approached him a couple of different ways. Thus far,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: we have not heard from Ray McQueen in so far
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: as an interview possibilities concerned. However, that opportunity is always
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: open to him. We have seen and interviewed Donna at length,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: and she's a remarkable woman in her fifties who's carried
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: a very heavy burden of guilt for a long time.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: And she reflects on her role in those years, on
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: her connection to Ray McQueen, the friendship she had at
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: the same time with the murdered wife for us, and
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: she feels enormous remorse and regret. Even though she was
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: only sixteen, she was incredibly naive. She was clearly being
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: groomed and had been for some time, and what she
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: told us is quite remarkable.
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: Even though I know that I was young and naive,
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: it's still really hard. You feel guilt, ashamed, embarrassed, but
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: it's not about us, it's about her, and I think
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: we've just got to get over it and do it.
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: That's why I'm doing it.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: It's amazing to get her on the record too. How
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: did you do that, Claire?
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: It was just I think a stroke of luck, a
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: bit of foot leather. You make your own luck. But
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: she's on the record. She's happy for us to use
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: her name and her husband's name. But we knocked on
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: the door. Her husband was there, Donna was out. He said,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: can you leave your details and I'll let her know.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: You know, he suggested that maybe she wouldn't want to
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: talk to us, and he was very protective of his wife,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: very comfortingly so, and two hours later she telephoned my
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: mobile and asked me what it was all about, and
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: we had a long chat about that. The following morning,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: we sat down and she said, I want to talk
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: about this. I want to help.
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: I made a promise to Ross on her grave some
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: years after that if I ever found out that he
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: was in some way responsible, that I would time the
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: hardest to make sure that he was brought to justice.
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: I'd do anything I could to make sure that he
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: paid the price.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: And so for the next four hours she poured out
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: her heart, and you know, it's a very powerful interview.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And she also discloses something was about the police investigation
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: that I was not shocked by, but certainly a little
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: surprised over. She told us that she was considered a
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: key suspect by the police. The police believed that certainly Ray,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: in the police's view, had killed Roz to be with Donna,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: but they also suspected that Donna was in on it,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: was aware and possibly a participant in that.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: I never ever said let's get together, Hey, let's bump
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: your wife off. I was a sixteen year old girl
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: who had a crush and an older married man who
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: then asked me to go into a physical relationship and
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: to share a home, which then scared me to death.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Claire. By the time the police had concluded their investigation,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: they did not see Donna as a suspect at all.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: She was seen to be an unwitting, innocent, and very
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: vulnerable sixteen year old who had been groomed by Ray McQueen. Now,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Ray has always denied wrongdoing, and that's important we have
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: to stress this. He has not been convicted of anything.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: He has always maintained that he had nothing to do
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: with his wife's death. He has no answers as to
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: how she obtained strictnine. He has suggested that a near
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: neighbor may have supplied it. Police rule that out, but
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: this is a cold case that could be reopened at
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: any time.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Coming up can this cold case be solved. Headley stories
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: come in all sorts of ways to journalists, and this
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: one was a very unusual way that it came to you.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: What happened, Claire.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Turned up in a black and gray suitcase that arrived
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: at our offices in Brisbane.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Feel like you didn't get blown up by the security team.
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: My colleague Sarah Elks was a little perturbed, and she
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: texted me at home and said, there's a big case
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: that's arrived for you, and a separate letter with a
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: key in it. Of course, the suitcase was padlocked and
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: it had been sent by a former private investigator. He
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: had spent years investigating Ross's case, using his own funds
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: and giving up a lot of his time because he
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: felt very deeply about what he believed was a serious
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: injustice here. And because he's elderly and I don't think
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: he's very confident that he has a lot of time left,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: he wanted to pass along. He wanted me to take
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: over this investigation that he had been running on his
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: own for so long.
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: I got to the point that I thought, this case
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: is now going to go to someone with a fresh outlook.
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: I've done my best that's cost me a hell a
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: lot of money. We need fresh eyes to do something
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: that I haven't been able to do. I've tried to
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: go in every avenue I can that I fail.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: And the suitcase was full of his workings, all of
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: the documents and material and evidence that he had collected
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: over the years of running this investigation on his own.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: So we've teamed up with Rex at times and checked
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: out so much of what he did, walked in his footsteps,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and gone on the road with him in and around
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Bendigo to try to get to the bottom of this case.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Karina, do you think this is the sort of meta
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: that could be solved?
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I do think it could be, Claire. I think it
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: faces significant challenges, especially being a case that's forty years old,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: but you never know what might happen, especially with publicity
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: like this after all this time, for instance, Hedley and
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: I have been talking about the types of things that
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: could possibly occur for the case to be reinvestigated by police.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: We just don't know, but there certainly are possibilities for
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: the case to take off again.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: What's the legitimate use of strict name? Why would anyone
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: have it?
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: It's poison for rats? And mice Claire. It could wipe
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: out plagues as this old fashioned and incredibly potent poison
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: that would produce an agonizing death. And it was the
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: product of a tree that would grow in parts of
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Southeast Asia even parts of Australia. Came from the seed
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: pods of the strychnoss tree, and it would be used
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: sometimes in people's drinks. It would be sprinkled over meals,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: but it would always produce a very bitter taste. So
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: if you had strictnine on your food and you ingested it,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: you would taste it and it's incredibly bitter. The police
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: theory in this case revolved around these capsules that contained iron,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: an iron supplement that ros was taking for her pregnancy.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: The police view was that Ray McQueen had taken one
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: of his wife's iron capsules, opened it up, emptied the contents,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: and then filled that capsule up with strictnine, put it
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: back together, and then left it for his wife to
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: take at breakfast on the Tuesday morning, and then when
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: she ingested the capsules, you wouldn't have tasted it because
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: you'd swallow that. You wouldn't actually have it on any
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: other food substance. So that you would get the taste
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Karna. Listeners to Headley's podcast will be familiar with you
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: from Bromwin the Bromwin series, but you haven't been a
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: journalist for very long. In fact, you volunteered your services
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: to work with Headley on the Bromwin podcast. Tell me
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: about your journey from being a senior lawyer to being
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: an audio producer on this big investigation.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: It's definitely been a steep learning curve. I had to
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: google what an audio producer did to be honest. But
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: I've learned a lot over the past year or so
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: and be doing a lot of researching and a lot
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: of writing and a lot of editing with Headley. And
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: there's definitely some overlap in the skill sets of a
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: lawyer and a journalist. It's handy when that happens. But
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: I think also writing for a different purpose. I'm not
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: advising clients anymore. I'm educating people and providing entertainment for
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: people and storytelling. So it is a different way of thinking,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: in a different way of working.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Well, Headley and Karina, congratulations on the launch of The
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Poisoned Wife. It's a massive undertaking one of these shows.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I know you guys are already exhausted and we're just
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: launching it today, so congratulations and thanks very much, thank you.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Claire Headley Thomas is The Australian's national Chief correspondent and
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Karina Berger is producer of the new investigative podcast series
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: The Poisoned Wife. Subscribers here at new episodes first at
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the Poisoned Wife dot com, on the Australians App and
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. To contact Headley and the team, email
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: us at the Poisoned Wife at the Australian dot com
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: dot au