Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #238 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones

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#238 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones · Wrongful Conviction

0:04
Speaker 1: Since our initial and second release of this episode, there
0:07
Speaker 1: have been even more developments in the case of Julius Jones.
0:10
Speaker 1: While the litigation continues around the issue of whether or
0:13
Speaker 1: not the use of substitute drugs and leafal injections violates
0:16
Speaker 1: the Eighth Amendment ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment, Oklahoma
0:20
Speaker 1: stumbled blindly forward, causing yet another botched execution, this time
0:25
Speaker 1: for John Marion Grant on November one, twenty twenty one.
0:29
Speaker 1: Despite this tragic event and a recommendation from the Oklahoma
0:33
Speaker 1: Board of Pardons and Paroles to commute Julius Jones's sentence,
0:36
Speaker 1: his execution date continued to loom on the eighteenth, but
0:40
Speaker 1: through the tireless advocacy of Julius's family, Kim Kardashian, the
0:45
Speaker 1: Reverend C. C. Jones, Davis, Attorney Dale Bash, Scott Budnick, myself,
0:49
Speaker 1: of course, had so many others, along with countless concerned
0:53
Speaker 1: citizens like you. Governor Stitt finally granted Julius's clemency just
0:57
Speaker 1: hours before he was set to be killed. Now, you
1:01
Speaker 1: might recognize that the tone of my voice still sounds heavy,
1:04
Speaker 1: and that's because although Julius will be spared, the fate
1:07
Speaker 1: of another grizzly and bungled execution in Oklahoma, the conditions
1:12
Speaker 1: of his clemency are hardly caused for celebration. The governor
1:16
Speaker 1: commuted his sentence to life without the possibility of parole,
1:20
Speaker 1: along with the gratuitously cruel stipulation that Julius shall never
1:25
Speaker 1: be eligible to apply for or be considered for a commutation, pardon,
1:31
Speaker 1: or parole.
1:32
Speaker 2: For the rest of his life.
1:34
Speaker 1: However, Julius's attorney, Dale Bash, assures me that the fight
1:38
Speaker 1: for this innocent man's freedom is far from over. On
1:44
Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, Paul Howell was shot
1:47
Speaker 1: twice at a driveway to Edmund, Oklahoma, in a robbery
1:50
Speaker 1: for his GMC suburban. According to his sister, the shooter
1:54
Speaker 1: was an African American male wearing a red bandanna across
1:57
Speaker 1: his face and a stocking cap with up to an
2:00
Speaker 1: Jim Harris sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous
2:04
Speaker 1: non incentivized sworn affidavids, the co defendant in this case,
2:08
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan, has since bragged about being the shooter and
2:12
Speaker 1: framing his former friend Julius Jones. On the night of
2:16
Speaker 1: the shooting, Julius was at home with his family the
2:19
Speaker 1: evening following the murder. Chris Jordan spent the night at
2:22
Speaker 1: the Joneses, which was when he said he hit the
2:25
Speaker 1: gun in a second story call space. Confidential informants in
2:30
Speaker 1: the stolen car trade, including a longtime associated Chris Jordan
2:33
Speaker 1: ladel King, deflective investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius. Chris
2:39
Speaker 1: eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones
2:45
Speaker 1: for the murder. On July thirtieth, police searched at Jones's
2:49
Speaker 1: home and found the gun exactly what Chris Jordan is
2:52
Speaker 1: believed to have hidden it. With nothing presented to defend
2:56
Speaker 1: against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of ladel
3:00
Speaker 1: King and Chris Jordan, Julius was sent to Oklahoma's death Row.
3:04
Speaker 1: On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's
3:07
Speaker 1: fierce's advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with his attorney,
3:11
Speaker 1: Dale Bash and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones.
3:17
Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopp Today, we're here
3:34
Speaker 1: to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death
3:36
Speaker 1: row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for a crime
3:39
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very
3:43
Speaker 1: special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her
3:46
Speaker 1: from having been on this podcast before, Kim Kardashian West.
3:50
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
3:53
Speaker 3: Hi, thank you for having me again.
3:55
Speaker 1: I can't overstate the importance of you being here today
3:58
Speaker 1: with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible
4:01
Speaker 1: action that we can, and I mean the audience too,
4:04
Speaker 1: Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this
4:07
Speaker 1: fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Can
4:10
Speaker 1: you tell us when you first heard about this case.
4:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from
4:19
Speaker 3: a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her,
4:23
Speaker 3: and she was kind of reiterating the same information about
4:28
Speaker 3: Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought,
4:34
Speaker 3: I have to look into this. And I say this
4:38
Speaker 3: all the time because we have such an amazing group
4:41
Speaker 3: of people between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone.
4:46
Speaker 3: When all of the big players really feel the same
4:50
Speaker 3: way about a case, I know that we have to
4:54
Speaker 3: be loud, and I feel in my soul that we
4:58
Speaker 3: are early enough because execution date for Julius hasn't been
5:02
Speaker 3: set yet that I feel like now is the time
5:06
Speaker 3: where we all just have to come together and really
5:08
Speaker 3: make a difference in his life.
5:10
Speaker 1: What about this particular case, about his case makes you
5:13
Speaker 1: so passionate and what sticks out to you the most
5:17
Speaker 1: about Julius's case?
5:18
Speaker 3: There's a few things. Being a young honor roll student athlete,
5:24
Speaker 3: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
5:29
Speaker 3: always says what an amazing person he is, that grew
5:32
Speaker 3: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
5:37
Speaker 3: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
5:41
Speaker 3: set up the way he was just really rubbed me
5:45
Speaker 3: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life,
5:50
Speaker 3: was just taken away. It always goes back to me
5:53
Speaker 3: thinking about what if that was my son? What would
5:56
Speaker 3: I do if my son got set up like this?
6:01
Speaker 3: So we got to fight for this guy, We got
6:04
Speaker 3: to help him get his life back.
6:07
Speaker 1: The next voice you hear is going to be the
6:09
Speaker 1: voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who
6:14
Speaker 1: is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare?
6:20
Speaker 1: When did you get involved with it?
6:22
Speaker 4: In twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent
6:27
Speaker 4: Julius in clemency proceedings.
6:30
Speaker 1: And this really is a terrible crime. I mean, you
6:33
Speaker 1: have Paul Howell, a forty five year old church deacon
6:36
Speaker 1: and business owner, family guy, returning to his parents' home
6:40
Speaker 1: in the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school
6:42
Speaker 1: supply shopping trip with his seven and nine year old
6:45
Speaker 1: daughters and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now,
6:49
Speaker 1: as he was getting out of the nineteen ninety seven
6:52
Speaker 1: GMC suburban, a black man and a stocking cap with
6:55
Speaker 1: about an inch of hair sticking out from the bottom
6:58
Speaker 1: and a red bandana tied around his face stepped up
7:01
Speaker 1: to Paul and demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice,
7:05
Speaker 1: mortally wounding Paul. As his daughters and sister ran screaming
7:11
Speaker 1: to the house for cover, the gunman sped away in
7:13
Speaker 1: the suburban. And from what we know now, and remember
7:16
Speaker 1: this is an addition to what was known when we
7:18
Speaker 1: first released this episode, according to three men and counting,
7:22
Speaker 1: not just the original two. These are three men who
7:25
Speaker 1: all knew Chris Jordan in prison and or in jail.
7:28
Speaker 1: And none of these men have been incentivized in any way, okay,
7:33
Speaker 1: And they've all sworn to have been told by Chris
7:36
Speaker 1: Jordan directly that Chris did this shooting and that his
7:40
Speaker 1: former friend Julius Jones was not involved. I mean, that's
7:44
Speaker 1: powerful stuff right there.
7:46
Speaker 2: Okay.
7:46
Speaker 1: But at the time of this investigation, the cops went
7:50
Speaker 1: looking for the usual suspects in the stolen car trade.
7:53
Speaker 1: First they went to a guy named Kermit Lottie. He
7:55
Speaker 1: led them to laddel King, who was an associate of
7:58
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan, who then had them to Jordan and eventually
8:02
Speaker 1: Julius Jones. But the cops caught Chris Jordan first, Right,
8:07
Speaker 1: So can you walk us through some of the things
8:10
Speaker 1: that Chris Jordan told them?
8:12
Speaker 4: Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, according to
8:17
Speaker 4: Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case,
8:21
Speaker 4: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban
8:26
Speaker 4: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood,
8:31
Speaker 4: and according to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of the
8:35
Speaker 4: car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot
8:39
Speaker 4: Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's
8:43
Speaker 4: what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius.
8:48
Speaker 4: Tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is
8:53
Speaker 4: Chris made seven different statements to the police and those
8:58
Speaker 4: statements were in constant and at one point the police say,
9:03
Speaker 4: what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't
9:07
Speaker 4: have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that
9:12
Speaker 4: there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but
9:16
Speaker 4: the police continued to focus on Julius.
9:19
Speaker 1: And something that really struck me when reading about this
9:22
Speaker 1: case is that, according to the non incentivized witnesses who
9:26
Speaker 1: knew Chris Jordan in jail, prison, or both, as well
9:30
Speaker 1: as to statements that Jordan himself later made to the police,
9:34
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan on the night after the shooting, but before
9:38
Speaker 1: he was arrested and gave his initial statement, slept at
9:42
Speaker 1: the Joneses home. Chris left the Jones' home, which is
9:45
Speaker 1: where he said he stashed the murder weapon. So on
9:50
Speaker 1: its face, the gun being found at the Joneses looks
9:53
Speaker 1: damning for Julius at that time, but now in hindsight,
9:58
Speaker 1: it just further points in that the direction of Chris
10:01
Speaker 1: Jordan's culpability.
10:02
Speaker 4: Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police,
10:08
Speaker 4: he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and
10:11
Speaker 4: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men
10:16
Speaker 4: that he spoke to while in custody in the county
10:19
Speaker 4: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the
10:23
Speaker 4: murder and hid it in Julius's parent's house. We understand
10:28
Speaker 4: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of
10:33
Speaker 4: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then
10:38
Speaker 4: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where
10:44
Speaker 4: we think Chris told them the gun would be located.
10:47
Speaker 4: We also know that there were other people involved, namely
10:52
Speaker 4: Kermit Lottie and Ladel King, that had a lot to
10:56
Speaker 4: gain by pointing in Julius's direction away from themselves.
11:01
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Lyddell.
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Speaker 4: Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop
11:08
Speaker 4: on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was
11:12
Speaker 4: a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars.
11:16
Speaker 4: Laddel King was a close confidante of Kermit's and was
11:22
Speaker 4: known for his involvement in that trade. Laddel King was
11:26
Speaker 4: also a confidential informant, and in exchange for providing information
11:32
Speaker 4: to the police, he would be allowed to carry on
11:35
Speaker 4: with some of his illegal activities. At the time of
11:39
Speaker 4: Julius's trial, laddel King was facing bogus check charges and
11:45
Speaker 4: as an habitual offender he was looking to twenty years,
11:49
Speaker 4: and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation.
11:54
Speaker 4: Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger
11:58
Speaker 4: at Julius.
11:59
Speaker 1: So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort
12:04
Speaker 1: of a unit.
12:04
Speaker 3: Right.
12:05
Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You
12:10
Speaker 1: have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the
12:15
Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that
12:18
Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent robbery a tragic death. But
12:21
Speaker 1: we know a number of things that would make anyone
12:24
Speaker 1: go wait. I mean, for instance, we know that the
12:28
Speaker 1: number of shellcasings tuned the scene was something that was
12:31
Speaker 1: known and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the
12:34
Speaker 1: police even asked or suggested it. We know that the
12:37
Speaker 1: witnesses were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone
12:43
Speaker 1: very much like Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius.
12:46
Speaker 4: Megan Toby, mister Howell's sister, was in the car with
12:51
Speaker 4: him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified
12:54
Speaker 4: that she saw the person who shot her brother, and
12:58
Speaker 4: she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana
13:03
Speaker 4: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half
13:08
Speaker 4: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap.
13:11
Speaker 4: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop,
13:17
Speaker 4: very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his
13:21
Speaker 4: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's
13:25
Speaker 4: hair was short. Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder,
13:30
Speaker 4: Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had
13:33
Speaker 4: a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo
13:38
Speaker 4: of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never
13:43
Speaker 4: shown to the jury at trial. We also know that
13:47
Speaker 4: Julius was at home with his family at the time
13:51
Speaker 4: mister Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening,
13:57
Speaker 4: Chris and Julius were supposed to down to Norman, Oklahoma,
14:02
Speaker 4: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius
14:06
Speaker 4: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said
14:10
Speaker 4: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen
14:13
Speaker 4: would show up until close to midnight.
14:17
Speaker 1: We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his
14:20
Speaker 1: mother Madeline. Now Here you have a son who is
14:23
Speaker 1: excelling in so many ways, co captain of three different
14:28
Speaker 1: sports teams in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University,
14:34
Speaker 1: great looking young man with his whole life laid out
14:37
Speaker 1: in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible,
14:42
Speaker 1: terrible turn.
14:43
Speaker 5: It's been a twenty plus year shot and I really
14:50
Speaker 5: can't often find the worst explain what it's been like.
14:54
Speaker 6: We just got blindsided.
14:56
Speaker 1: It sure seems like he went from the American dream
14:59
Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful
15:03
Speaker 1: night July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell
15:07
Speaker 1: us what was happening that night and why and how
15:10
Speaker 1: you know that Julius could not possibly have been there.
15:13
Speaker 5: That was kind of a busy day for us. I
15:17
Speaker 5: was trying to do Antoinette's hair, was fixing spaghetti, but
15:23
Speaker 5: Julius was.
15:24
Speaker 6: There all day long. They played monopoly.
15:28
Speaker 7: There were a few of us playing Monopoly.
15:29
Speaker 8: Julius was there playing Monopoly, and my oldest brother, Antonio
15:35
Speaker 8: and another young man that.
15:37
Speaker 2: Was over there.
15:37
Speaker 8: They got mad at me because I gave Jus all
15:40
Speaker 8: my money and property. I had to do that because
15:42
Speaker 8: I had to get my hair done. So it's specific
15:45
Speaker 8: things like that, like I know that it was around Jesus' birthday.
15:49
Speaker 8: Jesus friand had a big chocolate chip cookie that she
15:52
Speaker 8: gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in
15:55
Speaker 8: and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie.
15:58
Speaker 8: And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to
16:01
Speaker 8: go to work. My mother went to go take him
16:03
Speaker 8: to work. Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like,
16:06
Speaker 8: oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking?
16:09
Speaker 8: And I kid you not. He waited at the back
16:10
Speaker 8: door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth, waiting for
16:13
Speaker 8: Mom to come home so he could tell that somebody
16:15
Speaker 8: ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well,
16:17
Speaker 8: you know, I was like, Tony h a cookie, and
16:20
Speaker 8: so I'll never forget that day.
16:22
Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody
16:25
Speaker 1: would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie
16:29
Speaker 1: was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's
16:32
Speaker 1: just one of many, many things, you know. So July
16:35
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, he's home with you, sounds like sort of
16:38
Speaker 1: a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in
16:42
Speaker 1: the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, Chris
16:46
Speaker 1: is at your home. Right, he spent the night that night,
16:49
Speaker 1: which is when he had the opportunity to plant the gun.
16:53
Speaker 1: Do you recall Chris being at your house that night?
16:56
Speaker 5: Thursday was trash day and Jews usually take some my
17:01
Speaker 5: trash out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway,
17:05
Speaker 5: But Chris was kind of like a shadow was there?
17:09
Speaker 1: Answer that, were you there that night? Do you remember
17:11
Speaker 1: if Chris was at the house?
17:12
Speaker 8: I know Chris was there because I heard him come
17:15
Speaker 8: upstairs and go into the room that was Julius.
17:18
Speaker 1: The very next day, the police would surround the Jones's house.
17:21
Speaker 1: Julius family was purp walked out of their own home,
17:25
Speaker 1: and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out
17:27
Speaker 1: front to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden.
17:30
Speaker 1: Julius was appointed a good attorney, mister Barry Albert, who
17:34
Speaker 1: was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style,
17:38
Speaker 1: But mister Albert he died shortly before the trial, leaving
17:42
Speaker 1: his new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that
17:47
Speaker 1: they didn't put on any defense whatsoever.
17:51
Speaker 4: When it came time for Julius to present his case,
17:55
Speaker 4: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense. The
18:01
Speaker 4: lawyers did not put on testimony from the family who
18:05
Speaker 4: would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not investigate
18:10
Speaker 4: and present evidence from two people who were in jail,
18:15
Speaker 4: who didn't know each other and independently came forward and
18:19
Speaker 4: said that Chris Jordan told them that he said Julius up.
18:24
Speaker 4: He told one of the men that he planted the
18:27
Speaker 4: weapon in Julius's house, and he told both of the
18:31
Speaker 4: men that he would be getting out of prison after
18:34
Speaker 4: serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for his testimony
18:38
Speaker 4: against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made to the
18:44
Speaker 4: police during his interrogation were never explored by the defense
18:50
Speaker 4: when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris.
18:54
Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable. Why
18:59
Speaker 1: did your would have voted to convict They didn't have
19:01
Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying.
19:04
Speaker 1: What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial.
19:09
Speaker 5: Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the
19:13
Speaker 5: attorney that we had, mister Abbot, he was very thorough
19:18
Speaker 5: and he talked to us and he said, I just
19:19
Speaker 5: need to get Chris on the stand. Miss Abbot had
19:24
Speaker 5: a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they
19:30
Speaker 5: wanted more time, and then after he passed away than
19:34
Speaker 5: they wanted to immediately start up with trial and everything.
19:38
Speaker 6: And we were there every day. But one of the
19:41
Speaker 6: excuses after Miss Abbot had passed, they said the reason
19:45
Speaker 6: they didn't call us on the standing after they had
19:47
Speaker 6: sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It was
19:52
Speaker 6: just a mockery.
19:55
Speaker 8: I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the
19:58
Speaker 8: word we risked. I think I was a little older
20:01
Speaker 8: than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you couldn't put
20:04
Speaker 8: people on the stand to help my brothers defense.
20:07
Speaker 7: There was no defense there. And I mean it just
20:10
Speaker 7: that pisces me out.
20:27
Speaker 3: It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel.
20:32
Speaker 3: It just makes me so mad. Especially if it's an
20:36
Speaker 3: appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have
20:39
Speaker 3: the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting
20:41
Speaker 3: appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective and not
20:45
Speaker 3: help but actually hurt your case so much. I mean,
20:47
Speaker 3: I don't know how I could live with myself if
20:51
Speaker 3: I was an attorney like that. But I think, especially
20:55
Speaker 3: with Julius's case, he just didn't get a fair trial.
20:58
Speaker 1: Bottom line, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense
21:02
Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with.
21:05
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets even worse.
21:09
Speaker 4: During the trial in the jury room, one of the
21:12
Speaker 4: jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here?
21:17
Speaker 4: We ought to just take that end out back and
21:22
Speaker 4: bury him outside the jail, and one of the jurors
21:27
Speaker 4: approached a bailiff told him what she heard and asked
21:31
Speaker 4: to talk to the judge on the record. The judge
21:34
Speaker 4: sort of dismissed it as well, he could have been
21:38
Speaker 4: talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who the
21:42
Speaker 4: juror was talking about. Take the N word out of
21:47
Speaker 4: the equation. You still have a juror who made up
21:51
Speaker 4: his mind and was going to convict Julius and sentence
21:55
Speaker 4: him to death. Throw the N word in there, and
22:00
Speaker 4: the racism is just oozing from this case. We also
22:05
Speaker 4: know that between nineteen ninety five and twoenty twelve, there
22:11
Speaker 4: was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the
22:17
Speaker 4: death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male
22:22
Speaker 4: who is convicted of killing a white male is three
22:25
Speaker 4: times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma.
22:30
Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no
22:36
Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on this case,
22:40
Speaker 1: you guys had your work cut out for you, to
22:42
Speaker 1: say the least. But there was a new law in
22:46
Speaker 1: place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing
22:50
Speaker 1: in post conviction, So you tested the red bandana right.
22:54
Speaker 4: It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years. Doctor Shapiro,
23:00
Speaker 4: he used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology
23:03
Speaker 4: at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed
23:07
Speaker 4: the DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and
23:12
Speaker 4: came to some conclusions. So one of the things that
23:17
Speaker 4: Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the
23:23
Speaker 4: shooter yelled something at her is she was running away,
23:27
Speaker 4: and we identified a stain on the bandana, and we
23:33
Speaker 4: wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it
23:38
Speaker 4: came back negative is to saliva. So we don't even
23:43
Speaker 4: know if that bandana was the same bandana that the
23:49
Speaker 4: assailant wore, because there's not the saliva stain on it
23:54
Speaker 4: that should be there. Because the assailant yelled.
23:58
Speaker 1: Don't forget, this was July in Oklahoma, right, So you
24:01
Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to
24:04
Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone
24:08
Speaker 1: is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation
24:12
Speaker 1: on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe
24:17
Speaker 1: into the bandana that they're supposedly wearing on their face.
24:19
Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was
24:22
Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandana or whether the gun was taken
24:24
Speaker 1: and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they
24:27
Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put
24:30
Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead, But the state made
24:32
Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several
24:37
Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of
24:40
Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can
24:45
Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people
24:48
Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute,
24:50
Speaker 1: Then you know, I guess I got the right guy
24:52
Speaker 1: after all.
24:53
Speaker 4: Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the DNA
25:00
Speaker 4: was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests
25:07
Speaker 4: that the DNA could have been transferred to the item.
25:12
Speaker 4: So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled
25:17
Speaker 4: by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible
25:23
Speaker 4: that any DNA on there that could be consistent with
25:27
Speaker 4: Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer
25:32
Speaker 4: of the DNA.
25:34
Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me
25:38
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts.
25:41
Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short
25:46
Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap,
25:49
Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan gave a
25:53
Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he
25:56
Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting
26:01
Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police found it in Julius's
26:04
Speaker 1: house on more than one occasion. There's no salary DNA
26:07
Speaker 1: on the bandana in evidence, and it doesn't seem to
26:11
Speaker 1: be the one that was worn across the shooters or
26:13
Speaker 1: anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff.
26:17
Speaker 1: Forget to incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury,
26:21
Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough
26:26
Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that
26:28
Speaker 1: the only thing connecting him to it are the words
26:31
Speaker 1: of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to
26:36
Speaker 1: be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could
26:39
Speaker 1: almost get refused. I mean, they were given an offer
26:41
Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences
26:45
Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius.
26:51
Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up?
26:53
Speaker 4: That's it? And one would think that, you know, why
26:56
Speaker 4: is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row?
27:01
Speaker 4: But that's not how it turned out.
27:03
Speaker 1: This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact
27:06
Speaker 1: to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten
27:10
Speaker 1: letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him
27:12
Speaker 1: in any way?
27:14
Speaker 3: I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has
27:18
Speaker 3: to say, and I mean, what I can't understand, but
27:22
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who
27:28
Speaker 3: could just be so angry at the world. And I
27:31
Speaker 3: don't know how I would act if I was in
27:33
Speaker 3: his situation, But to see the grace that he has
27:37
Speaker 3: and to see how he's fighting through this and won't
27:40
Speaker 3: give up, it inspires me. So I want to fight
27:45
Speaker 3: like I we need him to get out. I mean,
27:49
Speaker 3: just to even know that because he was an athlete,
27:52
Speaker 3: to see a lot of athletes support him and write
27:56
Speaker 3: letters on his behalf now to send to the governor
28:00
Speaker 3: has been so amazing to see. You know, when he
28:02
Speaker 3: was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and
28:06
Speaker 3: is completely in support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote
28:10
Speaker 3: an amazing, heartfelt letter for the governor to see in
28:14
Speaker 3: support of Julius's release. Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing
28:20
Speaker 3: people that really want to see him released as well,
28:23
Speaker 3: people that grew up there, people that played there. Carmelo Anthony,
28:27
Speaker 3: who played in Oklahoma for a little while. His wife
28:30
Speaker 3: is my best friend.
28:31
Speaker 4: You know.
28:31
Speaker 3: I sent him all the facts and he wrote a
28:33
Speaker 3: letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that
28:36
Speaker 3: has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays
28:40
Speaker 3: attention before it's too late, because we will not go
28:43
Speaker 3: out easy on this one.
28:45
Speaker 1: And we know that the governor of Oklahoma is a
28:48
Speaker 1: guy who cares about criminal justice reform. He's done some
28:54
Speaker 1: positive things for sure. It would be hard to imagine
28:57
Speaker 1: that he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't
29:00
Speaker 1: be moved to take action here. Between the outcry and
29:04
Speaker 1: the public, the support of prominent people, faith leaders, business leaders,
29:10
Speaker 1: so many different people, and the facts of the case
29:13
Speaker 1: cry out for justice. Yeah.
29:15
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone always asks me like, well,
29:18
Speaker 3: what can we do? And I think the most important
29:21
Speaker 3: thing to do is call the Governor's office and elected
29:26
Speaker 3: officials that can really make a difference and just be
29:29
Speaker 3: really loud. And you should go to Justice for Julius
29:33
Speaker 3: Jones dot com. First of all, look into his case.
29:37
Speaker 3: Everything is on this website, from the documentary The Last
29:41
Speaker 3: Offense with Viola Davis to where you can sign the
29:45
Speaker 3: petition in favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe
29:50
Speaker 3: to stay up to date on what's going on. And
29:53
Speaker 3: it even gives you a link to email the Parole Board.
29:57
Speaker 3: I do believe that the Parole Board is like in
29:59
Speaker 3: favor reform. I believe everyone is very compassionate from what
30:03
Speaker 3: I've heard. So I just urge everyone please sign the
30:07
Speaker 3: petition for Julius Jones if you're moved by his story.
30:11
Speaker 3: I've done it. I believe in him so much. I
30:13
Speaker 3: believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot Com.
30:29
Speaker 1: When we initially released this episode, as you heard mentioned
30:32
Speaker 1: several times throughout, there were two witnesses who had been
30:35
Speaker 1: in jail with Chris Jordan, and they are Manual Little
30:38
Speaker 1: John and Christopher Berry. Now since then there's been a
30:41
Speaker 1: third man. Now, mind you, only the state can incentivize
30:46
Speaker 1: a witness. Everybody knows this right. It's totally illegal for
30:50
Speaker 1: anyone but the state to bribe a witness. So these
30:54
Speaker 1: men have nothing to gain by coming forward. In fact,
30:57
Speaker 1: they have a lot to lose. Here's what Manuel Little
30:59
Speaker 1: John said in his two thousand and four sworn Affidavid Quote.
31:04
Speaker 1: Jordan stated that he felt kilty because he was going
31:06
Speaker 1: to implicate his co defended Julius Jones in a murder
31:09
Speaker 1: case to avoid getting the death penalty for himself.
31:13
Speaker 2: That's end quote.
31:14
Speaker 1: In Little John's Affidavid, after admitting to hiding the gun
31:18
Speaker 1: in the Joneses home, Jordan stated to Little John, quote,
31:22
Speaker 1: Julius didn't do it. End quote. Julius wasn't there. Then,
31:28
Speaker 1: Christopher Barry in his two thousand and four sworn Affidavid,
31:32
Speaker 1: referring to what Chris Jordan had told him, quote, he
31:36
Speaker 1: was the actual person who shot the victim in his case.
31:40
Speaker 1: Mister Jordan also said of still quoting that because he
31:44
Speaker 1: was the first person to talk to police, he was
31:47
Speaker 1: getting a deal and would not get the death penalty
31:50
Speaker 1: end quote. And finally, in March of twenty twenty one,
31:53
Speaker 1: we have a sworn affidavit from Roderick Wesley and he
31:57
Speaker 1: says the following on video about his interaction with Chris Jordan.
32:02
Speaker 2: Me and Jordan had worked together. One day.
32:05
Speaker 9: We're sitting there and I'm telling him about my situation.
32:08
Speaker 9: He pretty much told me about his. I guess you
32:11
Speaker 9: say he was being sort of remorseful, but it was
32:14
Speaker 9: one of the cases where I'm sorry, but I'm not
32:18
Speaker 9: gonna jump out there and just, you know, throw myself
32:20
Speaker 9: to the wolves like that.
32:22
Speaker 2: And so when he ended up breaking it down.
32:24
Speaker 9: It was pretty much like, you know, yeah, I committed
32:27
Speaker 9: the aid that somebody else is getting accused of. You know,
32:31
Speaker 9: he admitted that he won, you know, did kill it,
32:35
Speaker 9: and it won't this guy. You know, it was a
32:37
Speaker 9: big decision, is do I jump out there?
32:40
Speaker 1: What?
32:40
Speaker 2: But I looked at it as if it was my situation.
32:43
Speaker 9: I was wont with somebody who has information to go
32:46
Speaker 9: ahead and do it because this is man life online.
32:49
Speaker 1: I mean, what can I possibly add to further prove
32:53
Speaker 1: what we've been all saying all along? Julius Jones is
32:57
Speaker 1: an innocent man on death row. And since almost seven
33:02
Speaker 1: million people have signed a petition on Julia's behalf Banker's
33:06
Speaker 1: boxes of signatures were delivered to the Oklahoma Border Pardons
33:10
Speaker 1: in Parole begging for justice in this case. And now
33:13
Speaker 1: since this latest statement from Roderick Wesley, Julius has been
33:17
Speaker 1: granted a hearing. It's a Stage two commutation hearing in
33:22
Speaker 1: front of the Oklahoma Border Pardons in Parole and it's
33:25
Speaker 1: happening on September thirteen, twenty twenty one. But that doesn't
33:28
Speaker 1: mean it's time to rest or relax. Now is the
33:31
Speaker 1: time to ramp up the pressure. If you'd like to
33:34
Speaker 1: add your name to that petition, it's going to be
33:37
Speaker 1: linked in the bio. Please help us keep the pressure on.
33:41
Speaker 1: And with that we're going to go to closing arguments, where,
33:44
Speaker 1: of course, first of all, I think all of you,
33:47
Speaker 1: and now we're going to hear from Dale, Antoinette, and
33:50
Speaker 1: of course Julius's mother, Madeline. But let's kick it off
33:54
Speaker 1: with you first.
33:55
Speaker 3: Kim Oh, thank you for having me on here, and
33:57
Speaker 3: thank you for everything that you do and for showing
34:00
Speaker 3: me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much,
34:04
Speaker 3: and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many
34:08
Speaker 3: cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open
34:11
Speaker 3: up people's minds and hearts that might have been a
34:14
Speaker 3: little bit closed off when it comes to reform, or
34:17
Speaker 3: might not understood how they could help, and then we're
34:20
Speaker 3: giving them a platform where they can help out and
34:24
Speaker 3: be a part of the conversation and help fight for
34:26
Speaker 3: people that really really deserve it.
34:29
Speaker 1: So thank you, Dale, You've done a fantastic job and
34:33
Speaker 1: I appreciate you making the time. I know it's going
34:35
Speaker 1: to make a difference.
34:36
Speaker 4: Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending
34:42
Speaker 4: before the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board. Julius is thankful
34:47
Speaker 4: for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he
34:51
Speaker 4: has received that is giving him strength. This case got
34:56
Speaker 4: the attention it deserved when Viola Davis in Julius Tennant
35:01
Speaker 4: produced the last defense that put light on this injustice
35:06
Speaker 4: and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me, and we should
35:10
Speaker 4: all be concerned about this, is that without the last defense,
35:14
Speaker 4: no one would be interested in this case. Julius would
35:18
Speaker 4: have been just another African American man in prison saying
35:22
Speaker 4: he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no
35:25
Speaker 4: one would care. There are thousands of julius'es behind bars
35:30
Speaker 4: today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason,
35:35
Speaker 4: and we appreciate that the struggle isn't over. Thank you
35:40
Speaker 4: very much.
35:41
Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know
35:44
Speaker 1: she's mom? So antoinete over to you.
35:47
Speaker 8: So first I would say that my brother, Julius there
35:51
Speaker 8: is Jones. He did not kill Paul. How my brother
35:57
Speaker 8: is a human being. He is not a number. When
36:01
Speaker 8: we consider people human beings and not just numbers, and
36:03
Speaker 8: we really take it into account all the facts. I'm
36:06
Speaker 8: just asking them to correct this wrong. I'm asking you
36:09
Speaker 8: to look at all of the key points in this case.
36:13
Speaker 8: I'm asking you to understand that my brother never got
36:16
Speaker 8: a fair defense. He never got a proper defense, he
36:19
Speaker 8: never got a jur of his peers, he never got
36:23
Speaker 8: a chance to voice what happened to him from his side.
36:27
Speaker 8: And I'm just asking you, as a human being, to
36:31
Speaker 8: understand and take my brother in consideration as.
36:34
Speaker 7: A human being and not a number.
36:36
Speaker 2: He is not a.
36:36
Speaker 8: Person that will take a life. He is a person
36:38
Speaker 8: that will protect a life. He is a person that
36:41
Speaker 8: cares about everybody's well being. To this day, he cares.
36:45
Speaker 8: He cares more about how everybody else is doing than
36:50
Speaker 8: how he's doing. Inside. That's who my brother is. He's
36:52
Speaker 8: a person that cares. He's a loyal person. He is
36:56
Speaker 8: a person that loves life. I never gave up, and
37:00
Speaker 8: I'm still not gonna give up. We shall not give up.
37:02
Speaker 8: We shall not rest. Even though the defense rests for him,
37:05
Speaker 8: we shall not rest.
37:07
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline.
37:12
Speaker 6: First of all, Julius is a good person.
37:14
Speaker 5: He's very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of
37:20
Speaker 5: times he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else,
37:25
Speaker 5: and that's the reason he's in predicament.
37:27
Speaker 6: He's in now, and.
37:32
Speaker 5: I just want to say to the bole board that
37:35
Speaker 5: one science does not fit all and that I would
37:39
Speaker 5: like for them to take careful consideration concerning Julius and
37:44
Speaker 5: to look at what he will be able to contribute
37:49
Speaker 5: to society if they spare his life. We just need
37:54
Speaker 5: to try to get things right because when justice is
37:58
Speaker 5: covered up, it stays cover for so long, but it
38:01
Speaker 5: will either burn through or it will grow. And right
38:05
Speaker 5: now I feel like that justice is growing because it
38:10
Speaker 5: wants to be heard and it wants to be fulfilled
38:14
Speaker 5: what it's really meant to be justice for all, not
38:19
Speaker 5: just for some of us.
38:21
Speaker 6: And you know, freedom is worth more than money.
38:26
Speaker 5: My biggest joy is to help my son home and
38:31
Speaker 5: to be about the things that he's dreamed and long
38:34
Speaker 5: to want to do. And I thank God for this
38:37
Speaker 5: opportunity today to be able to express so many things
38:43
Speaker 5: that I've helped in today. I really thank God for you, Jason,
38:48
Speaker 5: I thank God for people like you.
38:57
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rafel Conviction. I'd like to
39:00
Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cleiburn
39:03
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wartis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music
39:07
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated
39:10
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
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Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and
39:18
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava
39:21
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow
39:24
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam.
39:28
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcast
39:31
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one