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BREAKING: MAN HELD IN HEALTH-BOSS-SHOOTING, SILENCER, FAKE ID’S · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:07
Speaker 2: Bombshelle.
0:08
Speaker 3: Tonight, in the last hours, a man nabbed in the
0:11
Speaker 3: health Boss assassination with him a ghost gun, a silencer,
0:17
Speaker 3: multiple fake IDs, and a handwritten manifesto attacking the health
0:24
Speaker 3: care industry. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
0:29
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.
0:31
Speaker 4: Earlier this morning, in Altoona, Pennsylvania, members of the Altuona
0:35
Speaker 4: Police Department arrested Luigi Mangioni, a twenty six year old
0:40
Speaker 4: mail on firearms charges. At this time, he is believed
0:44
Speaker 4: to be our person of interest.
0:46
Speaker 2: That's right.
0:47
Speaker 3: In the last hours, a person of interests nabbed in
0:49
Speaker 3: the fatal shooting of healthcare boss Brian Thompson. From what
0:55
Speaker 3: we understand, McDonald's employee and Altoona in western Pennsylvania spotted
1:02
Speaker 3: the guy and thinks he looked like the health Boss assassin,
1:09
Speaker 3: probably trying to use a fake ID in a McDonald's.
1:13
Speaker 3: According to law enforcement and the New York Post, the
1:17
Speaker 3: man being eyed for the cold blooded execution of Brian Thompson.
1:23
Speaker 3: The guy has a gun, a silencer for fake IDs,
1:28
Speaker 3: and other items consistent with what Elie was looking for
1:33
Speaker 3: in the case.
1:34
Speaker 1: But is it him?
1:36
Speaker 3: Does he match this description? According to a McDonald's employee,
1:40
Speaker 3: he does.
1:41
Speaker 2: What else do we know? Where?
1:43
Speaker 3: Is Altoona, Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania, two hundred and eighty miles
1:48
Speaker 3: away from Manhattan, a little over a five hour drive.
1:53
Speaker 2: But the man hunt.
1:55
Speaker 3: Across the nation going in every direction from Manhattan. Divers, drones,
2:02
Speaker 3: you name it, all used employed to find the killer
2:07
Speaker 3: of the health care boss. What led to the detainment
2:13
Speaker 3: of this guy? We also understand that in his possession
2:18
Speaker 3: is a New Jersey ID at fake ID, possibly used
2:24
Speaker 3: to check into that Manhattan hostel.
2:26
Speaker 2: In the last hours police press conference listen.
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Speaker 5: A man was taken into custody today at Altuda, Pennsylvania
2:31
Speaker 5: this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangioni.
2:36
Speaker 5: He's a mail twenty six years old. He was born
2:38
Speaker 5: and raised in Maryland. We know he has tys to
2:42
Speaker 5: San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii.
2:46
Speaker 5: He has no prior arrest history in New York. Members
2:50
Speaker 5: of the NYPD Detective Bureau are currently traveling to Pennsylvania
2:53
Speaker 5: with members of the Manhattan District Attorney's Office to interview
2:56
Speaker 5: this subject. This case was brought to a successful conclude
3:00
Speaker 5: usion based on the coordinated effort between numerous NYPD units,
3:04
Speaker 5: including the Intelligence and counter Terrorism Bureau, our federal partners
3:08
Speaker 5: at the FBI, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, and of course,
3:13
Speaker 5: members of the Altoon of Police Department in Pennsylvania. On Thursday,
3:17
Speaker 5: one day after this crime was committed, the NYPD released
3:20
Speaker 5: a photo of the shooter in this case. This picture
3:22
Speaker 5: was obtained by the NYPD during one of their extensive
3:25
Speaker 5: video canvases. We took that photograph and we asked for
3:28
Speaker 5: the public's health in identifying this subject, and the public responded.
3:33
Speaker 5: Hundreds of tips began to pour into our hotline. Each
3:35
Speaker 5: tip was investigated thoroughly, and we began to release additional
3:40
Speaker 5: photographs as they came into our possession. The NYPD provided
3:44
Speaker 5: these photos to numerous media outlets. Local, national, and international
3:48
Speaker 5: outlets released the photo via television, print, social media, and
3:53
Speaker 5: online content. Luckily, a citizen in Pennsylvania recognized our subject
3:57
Speaker 5: and called local law enforcement of the Altoona Police Department
4:01
Speaker 5: responded to the call and based on their investigation, they
4:04
Speaker 5: notified the NYPD. This investigation is still active and ongoing.
4:09
Speaker 5: Thank you very much.
4:11
Speaker 6: I had a couple of questions about the document that
4:14
Speaker 6: he was found in possession with. Can you go a
4:16
Speaker 6: little bit more in depth about those motivations that you mentioned,
4:20
Speaker 6: was that CEO specifically named in that document? Was there
4:24
Speaker 6: anything more about him wanting to go after others? And
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Speaker 6: also in that document, was there any indication that explains
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Speaker 6: us how the level of detail that he went into
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Speaker 6: killing him, like, is there anything.
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Speaker 5: Else that That document is currently in the possession of
4:39
Speaker 5: the Altoona Police Department as part of their investigation, but
4:41
Speaker 5: just from briefly speaking with them, we don't think that
4:44
Speaker 5: there's any specific threats to other people mentioned in that document,
4:47
Speaker 5: but it does seem that he has some ill will
4:50
Speaker 5: towards corporate America.
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Speaker 7: Can you point to a single linchpin that help practice case.
4:56
Speaker 5: There's numerous lynchpins in this case, and the fact that
4:58
Speaker 5: we've recovered an enormous amount of forensic evidence, an enormous
5:03
Speaker 5: amount of video, and once again with your help and
5:06
Speaker 5: the public SELP so I couldn't. I really couldn't put
5:09
Speaker 5: it on one thing, but if I had to, would
5:11
Speaker 5: be the release of that photograph from the media. We
5:13
Speaker 5: had divers in the ward yesterday that came up negative
5:16
Speaker 5: results the passport. We don't believe that he was planning
5:19
Speaker 5: on doing any traveling at this time. We don't think
5:20
Speaker 5: he at this point our investigation, we don't think he
5:22
Speaker 5: was trying to flee the country.
5:23
Speaker 2: Person at McDonald's, were they buying food? What were they
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Speaker 2: doing at that exact court.
5:27
Speaker 5: He was an employee at the McDonald's.
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Speaker 7: But what was the suspect?
5:32
Speaker 5: He was sitting there reading, Well, the suspect.
5:36
Speaker 7: If you brought back to New York and chards.
5:38
Speaker 5: Here and when, We're going to have to work that
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Speaker 5: out with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office in Altoona, Pennsylvania.
5:44
Speaker 5: He's going to be facing gun charges there, and at
5:46
Speaker 5: some point we'll work out through our tradition, to bring
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Speaker 5: him back to New York to face charges here, working
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Speaker 5: with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office.
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Speaker 7: Hi Nada from the New York Post.
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Speaker 5: I was just hoping to get more details of the
5:57
Speaker 5: capture itself.
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Speaker 1: Did he put up a fight?
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Speaker 2: Did you say through the cops?
6:01
Speaker 4: And we've also recorded that he published online anti health
6:05
Speaker 4: KA industry rantings.
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Speaker 2: Can you share with us some of the services that
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Speaker 2: he posted on.
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Speaker 5: We're still working through his social media. We're going to
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Speaker 5: do a complete scrub of that prelomin earily. Like I said,
6:14
Speaker 5: he seems that he has some ill will tod Corporate America,
6:17
Speaker 5: but that will all come out as part of our investigation.
6:19
Speaker 5: We're not done here. We're still going to be putting
6:21
Speaker 5: this together. We're still going to be working very hard
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Speaker 5: to bring this to a successful conclusion.
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Speaker 3: A ghost gun, a silencer, fake IDs, and a handwritten
6:31
Speaker 3: manifesto attacking the healthcare industry sounds.
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Speaker 1: Like our guy.
6:37
Speaker 2: But what else led to this entertainment in Pennsylvania?
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Speaker 3: Hey, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us are now psychoanalyst out
6:46
Speaker 3: of La, author of deal Breaker. You can see her
6:48
Speaker 3: on Peacott Now Doctor Bethany. The theory that the assassin
6:54
Speaker 3: meant to scatter toy monopoly money over the dead body.
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Speaker 2: That tells me a lot about him.
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Speaker 3: He's got a lot of time sitting in somebody's basement,
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Speaker 3: thinking and plotting.
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Speaker 2: It almost rules out a day job in my mind.
7:10
Speaker 3: But that said, we know he's white male, we know
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Speaker 3: he's got money and a guy that can fund himself
7:18
Speaker 3: cash wise.
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Speaker 2: For nearly two weeks, in Manhattan.
7:23
Speaker 3: We also know that while he may have meant to
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Speaker 3: scatter fake monopoly money all over the dead body, sending
7:30
Speaker 3: a message as if the nine millimeter bullet didn't do that,
7:34
Speaker 3: he didn't leave the money behind. But he did leave
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Speaker 3: behind a water bottle with DNA and fingerprints on it.
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Speaker 2: He left behind.
7:42
Speaker 3: A candy or bar wrapper. He left behind a burner phone.
7:47
Speaker 3: If they can break into that burner flowe burner phone,
7:50
Speaker 3: that is going to be a tremendous source of evidence.
7:53
Speaker 3: But he forgot to strow the money.
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Speaker 7: Ah, Nancy, he forgot it. This guy is obsessional. In
7:59
Speaker 7: the crime world, say methodical, I say obsessional, meaning he
8:03
Speaker 7: has been thinking about this for a long long time.
8:06
Speaker 7: When I have a patient like this come into my
8:08
Speaker 7: Beverly Hills office, they usually are enraged at one person,
8:13
Speaker 7: and that is all they can talk about. What they
8:15
Speaker 7: would like to do, what the what the person's look
8:18
Speaker 7: on their face would be like, you know, Nancy, With
8:21
Speaker 7: obsessional paranoia, the person the person sort of alleviates their
8:28
Speaker 7: rage by constantly thinking about inflicting harm on the victim.
8:33
Speaker 7: But I also think although he obsessed about this and
8:36
Speaker 7: planted out, this was his first crime He did not.
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Speaker 7: He did not think about what it would be like
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Speaker 7: to drop a candy wrapper, drop the water bottle. He
8:46
Speaker 7: didn't have time to plan, He didn't have time to
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Speaker 7: scatter the monopoly money. This was all in his head.
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Speaker 7: You'd never practiced before.
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Speaker 3: Hey, you know what, Tom Smith, former NYPD knows this
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Speaker 3: area like the back of his hand. Tom the burner
9:03
Speaker 3: the cell phone. I mean there's an outside chance it's
9:05
Speaker 3: his actual cell phone. But the report's we hearing is
9:08
Speaker 3: it's a burner phone. Lauren Colin, Yes, no burner phone,
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Speaker 3: actual phone.
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Speaker 2: Burner phone, Nancy, Tom Smith. What I'm coming to you
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Speaker 2: about is the phone? What an idiot? I think.
9:18
Speaker 3: Bethany's right, this may be his first time at the rodeo,
9:21
Speaker 3: and you know, like, let me think of.
9:23
Speaker 2: A good one. Robert Blake remember when he and his henchman.
9:28
Speaker 3: Got his bodyguards, got together and murdered Bondi Lee Bakley, And.
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Speaker 2: They had this extensive to do list.
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Speaker 3: Very often you can catch the purp because of their
9:39
Speaker 3: to do list and they're over planning, right. Uh. But
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Speaker 3: the burner phone, they're really hard to break into. Do
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Speaker 3: you remember in the Alexe Burrogg trial, they had to
9:49
Speaker 3: bring in the secret service to crack his phone.
9:51
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I agree with Lauren. It's a burner phone
9:55
Speaker 8: and who knows what's on there. Yeah, he could just
9:57
Speaker 8: use it for simple things. Again, if he play hands
10:00
Speaker 8: it out and knows Berner phones and what to use
10:02
Speaker 8: them for, there may not be a lot on there,
10:06
Speaker 8: but the ability to break in there might not be
10:08
Speaker 8: that difficult because of the low technology that Bernard Phone
10:12
Speaker 8: and Giugi are and the limited amount of information that'll.
10:15
Speaker 3: Be on there, all the surveillance video, all the pictures
10:18
Speaker 3: that we've got so far talking on the phone just
10:22
Speaker 3: before the murder. Hey, Doctor Bethany Marshall, and then I'm
10:25
Speaker 3: going to follow up with renowned defense attorney Jason Oceans.
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Speaker 2: Dr Bethany, He's not worried.
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Speaker 1: Look at him.
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Speaker 2: He has practiced this over and over and over.
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Speaker 3: He has been watching the victim like a hawk from
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Speaker 3: the moment the victim got into town. This guy knows
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Speaker 3: the itinerary by heart. He knew that there was a breakfast,
10:46
Speaker 3: he knew that that started at eight o'clock. He knew
10:50
Speaker 3: that the victim was going over ahead of time from
10:54
Speaker 3: the Hilton over to the Executive Forum, where he was
10:58
Speaker 3: set to speak that morning.
11:00
Speaker 2: Now, all of.
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Speaker 3: This surveillance video is from individuals and businesses along the trek.
11:08
Speaker 2: Check it out.
11:09
Speaker 3: So what I'm getting at, Dr Bethany, this guy's cold,
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Speaker 3: cool and calculated.
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Speaker 7: This is definitely cold blooded and methodical. To use the
11:18
Speaker 7: panel's term, Nancy. There's one thing this guy forgot to do.
11:22
Speaker 7: He didn't watch the Nancy Grace Show, because if he had,
11:25
Speaker 7: he would have known that there were surveillance cameras all
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Speaker 7: along that street. And that fifteen minute phone call. That
11:32
Speaker 7: makes me wonder if this is like the DC Sniper
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Speaker 7: where an older, more ruthless person recruited a younger person,
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Speaker 7: or that he's acting in concert with somebody else and
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Speaker 7: that's why he's on that phone.
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Speaker 3: Hey, Lauren, it was a call fifteen minutes before the shooting,
11:48
Speaker 3: not a fifteen minute phone call.
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Speaker 2: Correct.
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Speaker 9: Correct, The phone call occurred at six thirty am.
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Speaker 3: So, Doctor Bethany. But I agree with what you were saying,
11:57
Speaker 3: but he did not yet.
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Speaker 2: For fifteen minutes.
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Speaker 3: It's all just as if he's checking in, because I'm
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Speaker 3: wondering is he speaking or is he listening?
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Speaker 2: I can't tell.
12:06
Speaker 3: Plus his mouth is covered right there and I'll tell
12:09
Speaker 3: you why Jason Ocean is joining me renow defense attorney
12:12
Speaker 3: joining us out of this jurisdiction. Who also, you and
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Speaker 3: I have walked this track before together at Jason Ocean's
12:19
Speaker 3: back around or TV and HLN Day's Jason true. The
12:27
Speaker 3: reason I'm wondering if he was listening to something and
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Speaker 3: not talking. I prosecuted an arson murder, and just before
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Speaker 3: the guy burned his mansion down and tried to fake
12:39
Speaker 3: that his wife died in the fire from smoking elation,
12:43
Speaker 3: he called and checked the weather channel. Jason, I was
12:47
Speaker 3: so happy he called and checked the weather channel to
12:51
Speaker 3: find out if it was going to rain the day
12:54
Speaker 3: he was setting the house on fire. So, for all
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Speaker 3: I know, this guy's checking the bus schedule or checked
13:00
Speaker 3: was it?
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Speaker 2: Now? I know he was not on a flight. I
13:02
Speaker 2: know he was on a bus.
13:03
Speaker 3: But every time I'm headed to Legordia, I call or
13:07
Speaker 3: I check online to see if my delta flight is delayed. Okay,
13:12
Speaker 3: how do I know if he was just checking something
13:14
Speaker 3: or actually speaking to someone. In Bethany's train of thought,
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Speaker 3: what if he calls someone it was a quick callment,
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Speaker 3: Hey I'm on the way right now, I'm walking I
13:24
Speaker 3: just passed Starbucks. It could be that it could be anything.
13:28
Speaker 10: Anta I think the theory that, you know, the potential
13:31
Speaker 10: theory that he was directed by someone and that's why
13:33
Speaker 10: he was on the phone is fascinating. Then also struck
13:37
Speaker 10: by that his lack of knowledge, you know, the overall
13:42
Speaker 10: aspect of the cameras that are everywhere. I think he
13:45
Speaker 10: didn't plan for that. That was the one thing in
13:47
Speaker 10: this seemingly meticulous planning that was that was not done.
13:51
Speaker 10: But that phone call could be very critical if we
13:54
Speaker 10: can find out if it was an incoming or an
13:56
Speaker 10: outgoing call, and the limited technology it has the ability
14:00
Speaker 10: to bust that phone up.
14:01
Speaker 3: I got to figure out how the Secret Service actually
14:04
Speaker 3: cracks it. You'd think it would be easy, because you know,
14:08
Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum with me forensic expert. When I was researching
14:11
Speaker 3: for my last book, Don't Be a Victim, I found
14:14
Speaker 3: out that about I think it was seventy percent or
14:17
Speaker 3: eighty percent, some crazy astronomical number of people still use
14:24
Speaker 3: the factory code UH that they had on answer machines,
14:28
Speaker 3: or they do one two three four is their code
14:31
Speaker 3: or one one one one, or of course sixty nine
14:34
Speaker 3: sixty nine that's now tried and true, or let's see
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Speaker 3: lucky numbers that they come up with, like seven seven
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Speaker 3: seven seven.
14:43
Speaker 2: It's so predictable.
14:45
Speaker 3: But then you got somebody like this who's uh half smart,
14:50
Speaker 3: and he's probably got some bizarre code on his cell
14:54
Speaker 3: phone the burner. You know how long it took them
14:57
Speaker 3: to crack Alex Murdog's. Finally they had to ring in
15:00
Speaker 3: the secret Service to do it.
15:01
Speaker 11: Exactly. Mean, if you look, that phone call could have
15:04
Speaker 11: been something as simple as he called him sick to
15:06
Speaker 11: work because he knew wouldn't gonna make it. Who you
15:08
Speaker 11: can call it? Six forty five am is a very
15:11
Speaker 11: small group of people, so it could have been he's
15:14
Speaker 11: checking the bus schedule because he's leaving that morning and
15:17
Speaker 11: wants to make.
15:18
Speaker 2: Sure that's smart. It's smart, smart way.
15:21
Speaker 3: But you just you just really gave me clue, Cheryl,
15:26
Speaker 3: who are you going to call at six o'clock.
15:28
Speaker 2: In the morning?
15:28
Speaker 11: Okay?
15:29
Speaker 2: Not very many people?
15:31
Speaker 11: Okay, go ahead, because if you call your mom or
15:34
Speaker 11: a sister or something like that, you're going to scare
15:36
Speaker 11: the day like that of them. So it's got to
15:37
Speaker 11: be somebody that's obvious. So you can leave a message
15:41
Speaker 11: for somebody, because you know they're not at work at
15:43
Speaker 11: you can check the bus schedule. I'm not as interested
15:46
Speaker 11: in that as I am his other messages. What he
15:49
Speaker 11: wrote on the shellcasing, the threat before the murder, the
15:53
Speaker 11: fact that he would choose New York and not the victim,
15:57
Speaker 11: Poe state, why not shoot him at any red light works?
16:01
Speaker 3: Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, you just gave me another tidbit. Hold on,
16:05
Speaker 3: I want to tell everybody. At first we were led
16:08
Speaker 3: to believe that the bullets were engraved in some way with.
16:14
Speaker 2: Deny defend deposed.
16:18
Speaker 3: We now know it was written with black sharp which
16:24
Speaker 3: tells me even more. Do you know that you can
16:27
Speaker 3: get a handwriting sample off of that?
16:30
Speaker 2: Not that I think police.
16:31
Speaker 3: Are gonna need a handwriting sample when they've got fingerprints
16:34
Speaker 3: in DNA, but you never know what might click with
16:37
Speaker 3: the jury.
16:38
Speaker 2: What about it? Cheryl?
16:39
Speaker 11: One hundred? But again, it tells you he took extra
16:43
Speaker 11: time to leave a message on shellcasings. He took extra
16:46
Speaker 11: time to get the monopoly money. That's a message. Shooting
16:50
Speaker 11: him in New York City the morning of that meeting
16:53
Speaker 11: was a message. He could have shot him anytime in
16:56
Speaker 11: his home, stated a red light, but he didn't. This
16:59
Speaker 11: is somebody. It was laser focus about his intended target
17:04
Speaker 11: and his motive.
17:06
Speaker 1: Period crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
17:21
Speaker 2: Welcome Back.
17:21
Speaker 3: A person of interest in the execution style murder of
17:26
Speaker 3: healthcare boss Brian Thompson has been nabbed nabbed in western
17:32
Speaker 3: Pennsylvania carrying very incriminating items. An eagle eyed McDonald's employee
17:38
Speaker 3: called law enforcement.
17:40
Speaker 4: The suspect was in a McDonald's and was recognized by
17:44
Speaker 4: an employee, who then.
17:45
Speaker 1: Called local police.
17:47
Speaker 4: Responding officers questioned the suspect, who was acting suspiciously and
17:51
Speaker 4: was carrying multiple fraudulent IDs as well as a US passport.
17:56
Speaker 3: First, I want to go out to our dive expert.
18:00
Speaker 3: I'm curious about the search in the lake at Central Park.
18:05
Speaker 12: The New York Police Department dive team is called into
18:07
Speaker 12: action after the discovery of the backpack near Hexherre Playground.
18:10
Speaker 12: The divers are seen trawling a Central Park pond behind
18:13
Speaker 12: an area cordoned off with police tape next to Bethesda Fountain,
18:16
Speaker 12: in a body of water known as the Lake near
18:18
Speaker 12: Central Park boat House. The NYPD has been searching Central
18:22
Speaker 12: Park since the gunman was seen escaping on an ee
18:24
Speaker 12: bike into the park. Police have not yet recovered the
18:26
Speaker 12: distinctive gun used in the shooting, and it's unclear if
18:29
Speaker 12: officers recovered any evidence from the water.
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Speaker 3: Joining me special guest Ben Dobin, Virginia Beach Emergency Medical Services,
18:38
Speaker 3: also the Dean of Professional Services at Virginia Wesleyan University.
18:44
Speaker 3: He is an expert diver and he is actually a
18:47
Speaker 3: dive instructor. Well.
18:49
Speaker 13: I do a lot of police diving also and just
18:51
Speaker 13: into emergency diving. And so I'm looking at this on
18:54
Speaker 13: Google Maps, and it's a relatively closed area, so that
18:57
Speaker 13: makes it a lot easier than having to go into
18:59
Speaker 13: the ocean or you know, a great lake or the
19:00
Speaker 13: chest Pea Bay, So it makes it a lot easier
19:03
Speaker 13: for the divers. It's also I just looked it up,
19:04
Speaker 13: it's only four to six feet deep, so that also
19:07
Speaker 13: makes it a lot more simple to do a dive operation.
19:10
Speaker 13: But what they're could be doing is they're gonna be
19:11
Speaker 13: looking for anything that they can find. And one thing
19:14
Speaker 13: that your listeners and watchers need to understand is anything
19:17
Speaker 13: that exists above water exists underwater. People use it as
19:20
Speaker 13: a garbage dump. We find you name it bikes, washing machines,
19:26
Speaker 13: shopping carts, so there's a lot of debris. The more
19:29
Speaker 13: people that are around, the more people use that as
19:31
Speaker 13: a dumping ground. But there's two things that I imagine
19:33
Speaker 13: they're looking for just listening to the different news reports
19:35
Speaker 13: and listening to you. They're looking for the firearm, obviously,
19:39
Speaker 13: but that telephone also, they're looking for that. You know,
19:41
Speaker 13: those are both very small items that are relatively easy
19:45
Speaker 13: to discard, and one of the things that if you
19:47
Speaker 13: find an item like that, you're gonna have to recover it.
19:50
Speaker 13: Evidence recovery is the same underwater as it is above
19:53
Speaker 13: water from the police perspective, but the one thing we
19:56
Speaker 13: have to keep in mind is that it's in a
19:57
Speaker 13: different environment. Evidence above is in air, so you all
20:01
Speaker 13: if you do is keep it in the air. But
20:02
Speaker 13: evidence that's recovered underwater you have to recover it with
20:05
Speaker 13: the water. If you take it out of the water,
20:07
Speaker 13: things start to break down relatively quickly. When I'm talking
20:10
Speaker 13: about specifically is fingerprints if you take something out of
20:13
Speaker 13: the water, and fingerprints can last for about a week underwater,
20:17
Speaker 13: so the clock is ticking. But if you remove whether
20:20
Speaker 13: it's a firearm or the telephone or any piece of evidence.
20:23
Speaker 13: You're gonna want to take it out of the water
20:26
Speaker 13: and just bring some of the local water with it
20:28
Speaker 13: and then bring that to your forensics office and then
20:31
Speaker 13: they're going to drain the water and then do all
20:33
Speaker 13: the magic that they do to get the fingerprints off
20:36
Speaker 13: of it.
20:36
Speaker 3: Okay, Ben Dobwin is joining me, not only Dane Professional
20:40
Speaker 3: Services at Virginia Westling and he is a dive instructor
20:43
Speaker 3: and a police diver. Now, Ben, you just taught me
20:46
Speaker 3: something I didn't know. Number One, when items are taken
20:51
Speaker 3: out of the water, you have to preserve them in
20:56
Speaker 3: preferably the abbiant water the water in which they were in,
21:00
Speaker 3: because the moment they hit the air, it starts to degrade.
21:05
Speaker 2: For instance, fingerprints.
21:06
Speaker 3: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of
21:10
Speaker 3: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a
21:13
Speaker 3: hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, I wanted
21:16
Speaker 3: to talk to you about the gun, but I want
21:18
Speaker 3: to follow.
21:18
Speaker 2: Up on what Dobrain is telling us.
21:21
Speaker 3: Yes, prints are preserved underwater because prints, fingerprints are based
21:26
Speaker 3: on the oil in the body oil water.
21:30
Speaker 2: Get it. You can explain better than me.
21:31
Speaker 1: Go ahead.
21:32
Speaker 14: Yeah, our fingerprints come about as a result of the
21:35
Speaker 14: discharge of the fatty lipids that we have in the
21:38
Speaker 14: pores that surround the print that's left behind. Remember, we
21:43
Speaker 14: don't have fingerprints on the tips of our fingers. We
21:45
Speaker 14: have friction ridges that leave behind fingerprints. So in this
21:49
Speaker 14: particular case, we believe that this is a weapon that
21:54
Speaker 14: has a magazine in it, Nancy. So if you have
21:57
Speaker 14: a magazine, that means that you're going to be pressing
22:01
Speaker 14: down on the rounds as you're loading the magazine in,
22:05
Speaker 14: and also you're touching that surface of the magazine. The
22:09
Speaker 14: magazine is this then fitted into essentially the grip of
22:14
Speaker 14: this weapon, and it's kind of in a protected space there.
22:17
Speaker 14: So what Ben is talking about is right on the money.
22:20
Speaker 14: You have this protected space. If you can keep this
22:23
Speaker 14: in the water that it comes from and take that
22:28
Speaker 14: into the lab, they can get around that weapon pretty
22:31
Speaker 14: quickly and raise any kind of latent prints that might
22:34
Speaker 14: be there.
22:35
Speaker 3: You did that so eloquently, Joe Scott, I would have
22:38
Speaker 3: just said, you know, like oil and water don't mix.
22:41
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I'm saying here. That one more thing
22:46
Speaker 2: about it.
22:49
Speaker 14: Yeah, you think about. You know, Ben had mentioned how
22:53
Speaker 14: densely populated, and all of us have been to Manhattan,
22:57
Speaker 14: how densely populated this area. This guy and pay very
23:01
Speaker 14: close than you weren't about to say this guy, if
23:03
Speaker 14: he did this, he ain't the first person to think
23:06
Speaker 14: about dumping a weapon into that lake, all right. So
23:09
Speaker 14: they have a herculean task at hand here dealing around,
23:15
Speaker 14: dealing in this filthy water where they're going to be
23:19
Speaker 14: using their hands, crawling along. How many other weapons are
23:22
Speaker 14: in there? Just because you find a firearm e merged
23:27
Speaker 14: doesn't mean it's the firearm that was used.
23:29
Speaker 2: Ben.
23:29
Speaker 3: I want to follow up with you on this is
23:32
Speaker 3: a great thing to throw at Jason Ocean's when we
23:35
Speaker 3: come back. But this guy did so much planning, Ben,
23:39
Speaker 3: But I bet he didn't measure the depth of this
23:43
Speaker 3: lake and has no idea even though it's big, it's
23:47
Speaker 3: twenty acres.
23:50
Speaker 2: I guarantee you he didn't know that it was just four.
23:53
Speaker 13: To six feet year And I just found that Google.
23:55
Speaker 13: And if you go a little bit further north, it
23:57
Speaker 13: looks like there's the reservoir in the and that's forty
24:00
Speaker 13: feet deep, So that is significantly deeper. I mean, it's
24:03
Speaker 13: obviously you can dive that. It just takes a little
24:05
Speaker 13: bit longer to get down and get up, But four
24:07
Speaker 13: to six feet is super easy. If they find something,
24:08
Speaker 13: they can just pop their head out of the water
24:10
Speaker 13: and look at it. And what the what he just
24:12
Speaker 13: said is we've done training dives in local lakes where
24:15
Speaker 13: we have found multiple guns. What we weren't looking for.
24:18
Speaker 13: I mean, we're just doing a training dive and we
24:20
Speaker 13: found guns. I found a flint lock pistol. I wasn't
24:22
Speaker 13: looking for one time, because you know, in a populated
24:25
Speaker 13: era of people think, oh if I if I discard
24:27
Speaker 13: a firearm in this lake, nobody will ever find it. Well,
24:29
Speaker 13: you know it's hard to see, but if people are
24:31
Speaker 13: looking for it, they're gonna find it. If the New
24:33
Speaker 13: York City Police dive team is one of the most
24:35
Speaker 13: respected in the world, if it's in that little area there,
24:38
Speaker 13: they're going to find something.
24:46
Speaker 3: Crime Stores with Nancy Gray.
24:53
Speaker 2: Welcome back. Breaking news tonight.
24:56
Speaker 3: In the last hours, a man nabbed in western Pennsylvania
25:00
Speaker 3: in the Altoona area at a local McDonald's. He has
25:04
Speaker 3: now been arrested on charges relating to a gun. Sources
25:09
Speaker 3: telling us it was a so called ghost gun, a
25:12
Speaker 3: gun that has no serial number that is often put
25:15
Speaker 3: together with a kit. The parts of the gun purchased
25:20
Speaker 3: or obtained separately, a ghost gun and a silencer, along
25:26
Speaker 3: with a hand written manifesto attacking the healthcare industry. Wow,
25:31
Speaker 3: but what else led to tonight's arrest? Joining me right
25:36
Speaker 3: now is expert Tom Smith, NYPD, detective thirty years and
25:44
Speaker 3: the star of the gold Shields podcast. Tom again, thank
25:48
Speaker 3: you for being with us. We've learned a lot about
25:50
Speaker 3: the gun.
25:51
Speaker 2: At first, it looks like it's.
25:53
Speaker 3: Been manipulated with a homemade silencer on it. We are
25:59
Speaker 3: now understand that is not a home made silence, Sir,
26:03
Speaker 3: that this is a weapon that is often used by
26:07
Speaker 3: veterinarians to put down that's nice word for it, animals.
26:11
Speaker 2: The magazine is in the grip.
26:14
Speaker 3: And when many people thought that it was jamming and
26:18
Speaker 3: he was clearing it after each shot, which I thought
26:21
Speaker 3: he did really calmly and methodically, we now know it
26:24
Speaker 3: may be a bolt action that has to be manually
26:27
Speaker 3: cycled after each shot.
26:30
Speaker 2: That changes things. Tom Smith, Yes.
26:32
Speaker 8: It does, because now he knows he's proficient in that weapon,
26:35
Speaker 8: knowing every time he fires it, he's going to have
26:37
Speaker 8: to chamber around. And if I could show you real quick,
26:40
Speaker 8: this is a glock, not the same weapon that was used,
26:43
Speaker 8: but but similar functioning. Every time he fires that weapon,
26:48
Speaker 8: he'd have to click it like this in order to
26:50
Speaker 8: chamber around to fire the next round. And the thing
26:53
Speaker 8: about him is he knows the weapon because he knows
26:56
Speaker 8: that's coming. It's not a surprise to him. So he
26:58
Speaker 8: fires around to clear it, fire another round, clear it,
27:02
Speaker 8: to chamber around each time, and he knows the weapon
27:06
Speaker 8: and he knows that he's coming and has to do that,
27:09
Speaker 8: and that's why he stays kind of calm. Any other
27:12
Speaker 8: criminal I've ever dealt with in New York City, what's
27:15
Speaker 8: a weapons jams, they throw it away, they run. He
27:19
Speaker 8: knows exactly how this weapon is being used.
27:21
Speaker 3: Okay, for once, the movie's got it right, Tom Smith,
27:24
Speaker 3: because in the movies you always see the person jam
27:27
Speaker 3: the weapon and they just throw it or they throw
27:29
Speaker 3: it at the person they're shooting at. Here when you
27:33
Speaker 3: look at the video, he's walking toward the victim. I
27:39
Speaker 3: guarantee you, Tom Smith, this guy practiced probably at a
27:43
Speaker 3: gun range.
27:45
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, and you probably have practiced with that weapon, because,
27:47
Speaker 8: like I said, there's a big difference when you're viewing
27:50
Speaker 8: this whether someone's panicking or anticipating the movement he's doing.
27:55
Speaker 8: He knows what he has to do to fire that weapon.
27:58
Speaker 3: You know, I want you to explain one more time
28:01
Speaker 3: for novices out there about the bolt action. We now
28:04
Speaker 3: don't believe the gun was jamming everybody. We believe it
28:08
Speaker 3: was a bolt action that has to be manually recycled
28:12
Speaker 3: after every shot. Could you explain that and demonstrate one
28:15
Speaker 3: more time please, Tom.
28:17
Speaker 8: Yeah, this is a nine millimeter weapon and the magazine
28:21
Speaker 8: port is in here just like you mentioned, it's at
28:24
Speaker 8: the bottom of the handle. So once a round is fired,
28:26
Speaker 8: he has to manually clear that round to chamber another
28:30
Speaker 8: round in order to fire it. He'll fire it again
28:33
Speaker 8: and do the same thing over and over again. So,
28:35
Speaker 8: like I said, he's very aware of how that gun
28:38
Speaker 8: he's used and what he used to do to fire.
28:41
Speaker 3: You know, another issue, Tom Smith, and I'm going to
28:43
Speaker 3: bring everybody back in in just a second, But Tom,
28:47
Speaker 3: another feature of this particular gun that is traditionally used
28:51
Speaker 3: by veterinarians to put down animals is it has.
28:58
Speaker 2: A very quiet shot. Very quiet shot.
29:02
Speaker 3: And the gun we're talking about has a long as
29:06
Speaker 3: we saw. Could you hold yours up again as a
29:11
Speaker 3: very long barrel like that? This one even seemed a
29:15
Speaker 3: little bit longer than yours. And that can be confused
29:19
Speaker 3: because it looks like a silencer, but it's not.
29:23
Speaker 8: It's a long weapon and easier to aim because you
29:28
Speaker 8: have more of an angle of your target in front
29:30
Speaker 8: of you. So, like I said, he is very aware
29:33
Speaker 8: of how this weapon is used and what it needs
29:36
Speaker 8: to do to follow is.
29:38
Speaker 2: This gun is a specialized gun.
29:41
Speaker 3: This guy practiced and practiced, and he had everything planned out.
29:44
Speaker 3: You know, he practiced with the murder weapon. He didn't
29:48
Speaker 3: just trot over to Connecticut and buy a gun and then.
29:50
Speaker 2: Use it the next day.
29:52
Speaker 3: That did not happen. Think of the mindset here. This
29:56
Speaker 3: is a gun he brought with him on a bus.
29:57
Speaker 3: Didn't get on a plane because he couldn't get there.
30:00
Speaker 3: Tsa with a gun for Pete's sake. And the airlines
30:05
Speaker 3: know who you are, they have your picture, they have
30:08
Speaker 3: you every three feet in the airport.
30:10
Speaker 2: He didn't want that.
30:11
Speaker 3: He wanted to travel with his gun. What criminal that's
30:16
Speaker 3: practiced and practiced and planned and plan was to use
30:18
Speaker 3: an alien gun.
30:19
Speaker 8: Well, it's hard to trace. That's why if you're using
30:23
Speaker 8: a normal weapon with a serial number and so forth,
30:25
Speaker 8: it's easily traced, whether you find it in a month
30:28
Speaker 8: or a year. This we have no idea whether there's
30:31
Speaker 8: any serial numbers on it, whether there's any distinguishing markings
30:35
Speaker 8: on it. So it could be very benign in the
30:38
Speaker 8: in identifying it, and that's why he paid.
30:41
Speaker 3: What I'm saying, Doctor Bethany Marshall, is that this guy
30:44
Speaker 3: did not just go into a gun shop and buy
30:47
Speaker 3: the gun just before the murder. If he planned this
30:51
Speaker 3: methodically to get to Manhattan and to carry out this crime,
30:55
Speaker 3: staking out the scene the moment he got there November
30:58
Speaker 3: twenty four to ten pm and go to bed, he
31:01
Speaker 3: went to this location where the forum was going to
31:04
Speaker 3: be held.
31:06
Speaker 2: He didn't buy a new gun. I don't think.
31:10
Speaker 3: I think he brought his preferred weapon with him after
31:14
Speaker 3: practicing for hours on end.
31:16
Speaker 7: This guy is upper middle class. This guy has money,
31:19
Speaker 7: He has disposable money, and he had access to a
31:22
Speaker 7: weapon in a professional environment. This is not somebody who
31:25
Speaker 7: goes to a gun shop with a fake ID and
31:28
Speaker 7: tries to skip the background check and gets a gun.
31:31
Speaker 7: This is a man who knows this weapon. This is
31:36
Speaker 7: also a man who has researched where this CEO is
31:39
Speaker 7: going to be.
31:40
Speaker 15: Early reports on the shooting of Brian Thompson pointed to
31:43
Speaker 15: a silencer being used or a modern version of a
31:46
Speaker 15: rare World War two gun. The investigators found themselves looking
31:50
Speaker 15: into a Connecticut gun store they believe may have sold
31:54
Speaker 15: the weapon. That lead did not pan out, but now
31:56
Speaker 15: Chief Detective Joseph Kenny says they are looking into the
32:00
Speaker 15: use of a veterinary gun being used as the murder weapon.
32:03
Speaker 15: Kenny says the weapon is normally used on farms and
32:06
Speaker 15: ranches when an animal needs to be put down. The
32:09
Speaker 15: animal can be shot with this type of weapon that
32:11
Speaker 15: doesn't cause a large noise.
32:15
Speaker 2: Welcome back.
32:16
Speaker 3: In the last hours, a man nabbed at a local
32:19
Speaker 3: McDonald's Altoona, Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania, over five hours away from Manhattan.
32:25
Speaker 3: The twenty six year old, taken into custody on gun charges,
32:30
Speaker 3: apparently had a ghost gun, a silencer, multiple fake IDs,
32:36
Speaker 3: and a hand written manifesto attacking the healthcare industry.
32:41
Speaker 2: It's not just this moment.
32:43
Speaker 3: This moment is the culmination of thousands of law enforcement
32:48
Speaker 3: man hours like this.
32:50
Speaker 16: Amid speculation that the shooter traveled to New York on
32:53
Speaker 16: a bus that left from Atlanta, NYPD officers have traveled
32:56
Speaker 16: south for part of their investigation. APD can firm through
33:00
Speaker 16: a statement that its officers are assisting the NYPD investigators,
33:04
Speaker 16: whom arrived in Atlanta on Saturday. Sources say they are
33:08
Speaker 16: searching through video from the bus station in town and
33:11
Speaker 16: to others along the route to New York City. Officers
33:14
Speaker 16: are working to find a name from tickets purchased for
33:17
Speaker 16: a November twenty fourth Greyhound trip.
33:20
Speaker 3: He noticed, the investigative reporter said, looking for a name,
33:24
Speaker 3: I guarantee you it's not going to be his name.
33:27
Speaker 2: Let me just say that.
33:29
Speaker 3: The security and verification procedures at the bus station a
33:32
Speaker 3: lot less stringent than it is at the airport. He
33:36
Speaker 3: could have gone in with any fake ID and gotten
33:38
Speaker 3: a bus ticket under a fake name, just like he
33:41
Speaker 3: had a fake ID that he got out of Jersey,
33:44
Speaker 3: just like he used a fake ID when he checked
33:46
Speaker 3: into that youth hostel. And speaking of the youth hostel,
33:50
Speaker 3: Lauren Conlin joining the investigative reporter and star a Primetime
33:54
Speaker 3: Crime on YouTube, Lauren. Much was made of him flirting
34:00
Speaker 3: with the receptionist.
34:01
Speaker 2: That's not what happened.
34:02
Speaker 3: We now know that to check into that hostel, and
34:05
Speaker 3: it's not just at a hostel. That's where they're doing it.
34:08
Speaker 3: Fancy hotels too. When they say, you know, we need
34:10
Speaker 3: some ID, look at them. The next time they ask
34:13
Speaker 3: you that.
34:13
Speaker 2: They look back up at your face. Right.
34:17
Speaker 3: So, yeah, there was a little flirtation. You can see
34:19
Speaker 3: him smiling right there. That's about ten thousand dollars worth
34:23
Speaker 3: of orthodontia on that mouth right there. But that's another
34:26
Speaker 3: can of worms, Lauren.
34:27
Speaker 2: So I don't know that.
34:29
Speaker 3: The clerk was flirting with him. She very well may
34:33
Speaker 3: have said, pulled down your mask. I got to make
34:35
Speaker 3: an ID. I mean, this is not the ritz, okay,
34:39
Speaker 3: right right.
34:40
Speaker 9: And you're correct, Nancy. I did visit the hostel, and
34:44
Speaker 9: everybody working there was friendly, not overly friendly. Something I
34:49
Speaker 9: noticed was that there were multiple cameras throughout the lobby
34:53
Speaker 9: of the hostel. There were cameras outside of the hostel
34:57
Speaker 9: as well. So my understanding is the most likely have
35:01
Speaker 9: multiple angles of this guy, of this shooter. I also
35:05
Speaker 9: visited the businesses surrounding the hostel. I went inside to
35:08
Speaker 9: a local bodega. I went inside to a Dunkin Donuts,
35:12
Speaker 9: and they informed me that they not do any sort
35:15
Speaker 9: of talking about what they know to anyone but the NYPD,
35:18
Speaker 9: but also that they turned over footage as well. So
35:22
Speaker 9: I believe that NYPD is going through all of the
35:25
Speaker 9: footage they have right now, which, look, it's gonna take
35:28
Speaker 9: some time. This is not going to happen overnight, but
35:31
Speaker 9: I think there's going to be a lot more and
35:33
Speaker 9: stills being released of this guy and what he did
35:37
Speaker 9: during his time in New York before the shooting.
35:39
Speaker 2: Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, let's look at this guy.
35:43
Speaker 2: Who is he? Based on everything we know right now.
35:47
Speaker 11: Nancy, I think one thing that's imperative that everybody's not
35:50
Speaker 11: mentioning is when you talk to the clerk at the hostel.
35:53
Speaker 11: If this were my case, the first thing I would
35:55
Speaker 11: have asked her is does he have an accent? And
35:58
Speaker 11: that's why I think again, they are focused on Atlanta.
36:02
Speaker 11: They know where the books originated, they know what he
36:04
Speaker 11: sounds like. If he's from here, they're going to know it.
36:08
Speaker 11: The other thing about that weapon, remember we have three words,
36:12
Speaker 11: which means three possible showcasing. So that gun either jams
36:18
Speaker 11: and we have an unspent or we have three spent,
36:21
Speaker 11: which means he missed one.
36:22
Speaker 3: Possibly a ghost gun, a silence sir, fake IDs, and
36:28
Speaker 3: a handwritten manifesto attacking the healthcare industry.
36:34
Speaker 2: Sounds like our guy. But what else led to this
36:38
Speaker 2: detainment in Pennsylvania to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychoanalyst.
36:44
Speaker 2: Way in, doctor Bethany, what's your take on it? Who
36:47
Speaker 2: is he?
36:48
Speaker 3: Nan?
36:48
Speaker 4: See?
36:48
Speaker 7: This guy is upper middle class, he's educated. He knew
36:52
Speaker 7: to do this hit at the healthcare conference because he's
36:56
Speaker 7: sending a message. If he did it at a traffic
36:58
Speaker 7: stop or at the victim home, it would not send
37:01
Speaker 7: the message. The scribbling on the ammunition he caught that
37:08
Speaker 7: from researching internal documents at insurance companies and citing words
37:13
Speaker 7: that employees or claims processors use to deny claims. I
37:19
Speaker 7: am going to guess that he had a family member
37:23
Speaker 7: who was denied care and because of that denied care,
37:26
Speaker 7: the family member died and he cannot get over it.
37:30
Speaker 7: So this is although he looks like a street thug
37:33
Speaker 7: on you know, at first glance, he has not.
37:36
Speaker 3: Hey, he's got a square chin, perfect teeth, wax between
37:42
Speaker 3: the eyebrows, eyes going slightly down at the outer edges.
37:48
Speaker 3: He can change a lot, but there are some things
37:50
Speaker 3: he can't change, like his fingerprints and DNA.
37:55
Speaker 14: Joe Scott, Yep, you're absolutely right. Those are unique to him, Nancy.
38:00
Speaker 14: And here's one other thing. I did a little digging
38:03
Speaker 14: one of this this weapon that they keep referring to,
38:06
Speaker 14: that's the veterinarian euthanasia weapon. They believe might be a
38:10
Speaker 14: what's referred to as a Station six brand weapon. My
38:14
Speaker 14: research revealed that there are essentially, I think either four
38:18
Speaker 14: or five locations in the metro area where these can
38:23
Speaker 14: be specifically purchased. And I think that if they believe
38:28
Speaker 14: that that's what this is and that he transported it,
38:31
Speaker 14: I think you're on the money here. Relative to getting
38:33
Speaker 14: on a bus with this thing, he may have picked
38:36
Speaker 14: it up down there at some point in time, and
38:39
Speaker 14: it's not a very efficient weapon for doing the task
38:42
Speaker 14: that he was trying to do, so I don't know,
38:44
Speaker 14: maybe he was trying to you know, he's not going
38:47
Speaker 14: to draw attention to himself, like when you buy a
38:50
Speaker 14: suppressor separately from a weapon perhaps, and it's not very
38:56
Speaker 14: efficient because you have to you lose your site picture
38:59
Speaker 14: every time you have to rotate that bolt on the
39:01
Speaker 14: back of that weapon, which is what he's doing. He's
39:03
Speaker 14: spending it. I think that many of the answers that
39:08
Speaker 14: we're looking for are probably going to rest as well.
39:11
Speaker 14: And this is something that we will hear a lot about,
39:13
Speaker 14: I believe, with United Healthcare and their chief security officer,
39:18
Speaker 14: who was actually hired back in August of twenty twenty three.
39:21
Speaker 14: I want to know what she knows. I want to
39:24
Speaker 14: know what her assets know within that business. Are there
39:27
Speaker 14: letters that have been written, are their lawsuits that have
39:31
Speaker 14: been filed relative to what doctor Bethany mentioned about Healthcare
39:37
Speaker 14: claims that may have been blown off or maybe they
39:39
Speaker 14: didn't receive what they wanted, But trust me, the security
39:42
Speaker 14: apparatus within that company is going to be working on
39:45
Speaker 14: in last.
39:45
Speaker 3: Hours in rest has been made of a man that
39:48
Speaker 3: seemingly checks all the boxes.
39:51
Speaker 2: But this case is far from over.
39:53
Speaker 3: If you know or think you know anything regarding the
39:57
Speaker 3: assassination of Healthcare boss Brian Thompson, please dial toll free
40:03
Speaker 3: eight hundred five seven seven tips five seven seven eight
40:06
Speaker 3: four seven seven, and tonight we can only thank that
40:10
Speaker 3: McDonald's employee for acting.
40:13
Speaker 2: We wait as just as unfolds. Good Night for