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How Much Damage Could RFK Jr Do to Healthcare? · Bloomberg Law

0:03
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.
0:11
Speaker 2: I do believe that autism does come from vaccines.
0:15
Speaker 1: There's no vaccine that is safe and effective. Robert F.
0:19
Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior has spent decades spreading his anti vax beliefs,
0:24
Speaker 1: and his debunk theory that vaccines cause autism is just
0:28
Speaker 1: one of the dizzy number of health conspiracy theories he's
0:32
Speaker 1: advanced over the years. Some others that chemicals in the
0:36
Speaker 1: water can cause children to turn transgender, that school shootings
0:40
Speaker 1: are caused by antidepressants, that Wi FI causes cancer, and
0:45
Speaker 1: that AIDS is not caused by HIV. And President elect
0:49
Speaker 1: Donald Trump has picked Kennedy to control the world's largest
0:53
Speaker 1: public health agency as Health and Human Services Secretary.
0:58
Speaker 2: We want you to come up with things and ideas
1:01
Speaker 2: and what you've been talking about for a long time.
1:04
Speaker 2: And I think you're going to do some unbelievable thing.
1:06
Speaker 2: Nobody's going to be able to do it like you.
1:09
Speaker 1: And that's just what health experts are afraid of, that
1:12
Speaker 1: Kennedy will be able to do some unbelievable things, things
1:16
Speaker 1: detrimental to the health of Americans. By making good on
1:20
Speaker 1: his promises that are based on junk science and debunked theories.
1:25
Speaker 1: If confirmed, Kennedy will control an agency with a massive reach,
1:29
Speaker 1: from providing health insurance for nearly half the country to
1:33
Speaker 1: overseeing research of vaccines, diseases, and cures, to regulating the
1:38
Speaker 1: medications found in our medicine cabinets and inspecting the foods
1:42
Speaker 1: that end up in our cupboards. Joining me is healthcare
1:45
Speaker 1: attorney Harry Nelson of Leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman Harry, just
1:49
Speaker 1: how much power does the Health and Human Services Secretary have?
1:54
Speaker 3: So?
1:54
Speaker 4: As Secretary of Health and Human Services, r K would
1:57
Speaker 4: actually oversee the whole seri of federal agencies that are
2:01
Speaker 4: health related, the primary ones being the Food and Drug Administration,
2:05
Speaker 4: The SEA is part of Health and Human Services before
2:09
Speaker 4: Nationalist due to Health and Center for Disease Control, and
2:12
Speaker 4: also the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services CMS, which
2:16
Speaker 4: which regulates most federal spending. He also would oversee a
2:20
Speaker 4: whole series of federal funding the clinics under various other
2:25
Speaker 4: federal health programs for family planning, and a whole series
2:29
Speaker 4: of other things that are kind of adjacent cities to
2:31
Speaker 4: major agencies.
2:32
Speaker 1: It's hard to know where to start, because he has
2:34
Speaker 1: advanced so many conspiracy theories related to health over the years.
2:39
Speaker 1: Let's start with vaccines, because he's one of the most
2:42
Speaker 1: famous anti vaxers in the country, and he said just
2:46
Speaker 1: in July, there's no vaccine that is safe and effective.
2:49
Speaker 1: He's repeatedly said that vaccines cause autism. He's also said
2:53
Speaker 1: recently that he won't take vaccines away from Americans. But
2:58
Speaker 1: what can he do? You know?
2:59
Speaker 4: Health and Human Services really is the federal agency that
3:02
Speaker 4: manages public trust in vaccine programs. It's responsible for vaccine rollouts.
3:09
Speaker 4: There's also a Financial Institute of Health and Zennifer disease Control,
3:12
Speaker 4: kind of these key federal agencies that are really responsible
3:15
Speaker 4: for putting out good information about vaccines. And so the
3:19
Speaker 4: idea that someone who has been an active proponent of
3:22
Speaker 4: vaccine misinformation, you know, is going to be in charge
3:26
Speaker 4: as a little or shocking, and certainly the ability of
3:28
Speaker 4: his expressed beliefs to become part of federal policy or
3:32
Speaker 4: to at least interfere with getting vaccines out there, potentially
3:36
Speaker 4: with funding for vaccines and for just sort of distribution
3:40
Speaker 4: is somewhat terrifying.
3:42
Speaker 1: Are any of his theories about vaccines, are any of
3:46
Speaker 1: them based in reality.
3:48
Speaker 4: I mean, I haven't studied every single thing he said,
3:51
Speaker 4: but it's much to keep track of that very public
3:54
Speaker 4: about some very active misinformation. And it just seems to
3:59
Speaker 4: me that he has such a complete distrust for pharma. Certainly,
4:04
Speaker 4: I don't think we should just say that the pharmaceutical
4:06
Speaker 4: industries are perfect, but he has allowed that broad distrust
4:09
Speaker 4: he has for everything about the pharmaceutical industry to basically
4:13
Speaker 4: lead him to the belief that vaccines are just essentially
4:16
Speaker 4: some kind of a racket that are actually causing problems
4:19
Speaker 4: in the world. And it's a crazy position. It's not
4:22
Speaker 4: a position that is defensible by reference to any evidence.
4:26
Speaker 1: I mean, with vaccine rates slipping, haven't we seen some
4:31
Speaker 1: outbreaks of measles and other diseases that had previously been
4:35
Speaker 1: stamped out.
4:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've seen that. We've seen, actually, yeah, a return
4:40
Speaker 4: of all kinds of diseases that had largely been suppressed
4:43
Speaker 4: and eradicated are coming back. Measles is a good example.
4:46
Speaker 4: There's no question that vaccine usage overall in the United
4:49
Speaker 4: States is found that more and more parents are choosing
4:53
Speaker 4: not to vaccinate their kids. You know, he's been a
4:57
Speaker 4: persistent promoter of this debunkt heor that vaccines are linked
5:02
Speaker 4: to autism, particularly like the chemical cinerosol, And so there's
5:07
Speaker 4: no question that he's causing the anti vax position to
5:11
Speaker 4: seem to have credibility in the public mind, even though
5:14
Speaker 4: it has absolutely no evidence and has been thoroughly debunked.
5:18
Speaker 1: So even though he says he's not going to take
5:19
Speaker 1: vaccines away, the co chair of Trump's transition team recently
5:24
Speaker 1: said Kennedy wanted to access federal health data with the
5:28
Speaker 1: goal of proving vaccines or unsafe and pulling them from
5:31
Speaker 1: the market. What would he have to do to undo
5:35
Speaker 1: the approval of an already approved vaccine.
5:38
Speaker 4: I think it's not going to be an easy path
5:40
Speaker 4: for him to disrupt approval of vaccines or frankly any drugs.
5:45
Speaker 4: He can certainly, you know, install leadership and convene task
5:51
Speaker 4: forces that are sort of tasked with exploring you know,
5:55
Speaker 4: fraud or exploring problems with vaccines, But there is actually, thankfully,
6:00
Speaker 4: a process of review at the FDA that will be
6:03
Speaker 4: dragged out and will not allow for this decision to
6:06
Speaker 4: be made quickly. There would have to be presentation of evidence.
6:11
Speaker 4: So I think he can start this and he can
6:13
Speaker 4: generate a lot of headlines for it, but I actually
6:15
Speaker 4: have trouble believing that he'll actually be able to advance
6:18
Speaker 4: the process, at least based on what we know now
6:20
Speaker 4: about vaccines and the scent to which they have been
6:24
Speaker 4: positively transformative of public health in nearly every case.
6:28
Speaker 1: Don't drug makers also have a lot of influence in
6:31
Speaker 1: Congress with the money they've spent.
6:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it was very interesting. RFK
6:35
Speaker 4: put out a couple of weeks before the election a
6:37
Speaker 4: sort of statement to pharmaceutical industry and to anyone who's
6:40
Speaker 4: lobbied for them, that they should watch out, they should
6:43
Speaker 4: save their records, and they should know he would be
6:45
Speaker 4: coming for them if Trump won. So it certainly is
6:48
Speaker 4: not a good time to be a pharmaceutical lobbyist, at
6:51
Speaker 4: least from the standpoint of an RFK led FDA. But
6:56
Speaker 4: there's no question that the pharmaceutical industry is one of
6:58
Speaker 4: it's not the most powerful lobby and we've seen the
7:01
Speaker 4: way that the United States has protected inflated pricing, for example,
7:06
Speaker 4: for pharmaceuticals, even as prices are lower throughout the rest
7:08
Speaker 4: of the world. By limiting the ability of the government
7:11
Speaker 4: to negotiate prices. That's just one example. We've seen a
7:15
Speaker 4: very cozy relationship between the federal government and the pharmaceutical
7:19
Speaker 4: industry for the most part, and I do think that
7:22
Speaker 4: this signals a new shift. That's all you have to
7:24
Speaker 4: do is watch the stock prices of pharmaceuticals and you
7:27
Speaker 4: can see a lot of people are worried.
7:30
Speaker 1: So over the weekend at an event, Kennedy said on
7:34
Speaker 1: January twenty first, six hundred people are going to walk
7:37
Speaker 1: into the offices at NIH and six hundred people are
7:41
Speaker 1: going to leave. Can he just wholesale fire six hundred people?
7:46
Speaker 4: So there's a distinction in the agencies between people who
7:49
Speaker 4: hold political positions that are recognized to be specific political
7:53
Speaker 4: appointment and then the long time sort of staff at
7:56
Speaker 4: lower levels. So yeah, this business that he talked about
7:59
Speaker 4: about firing six hundred people at the National Institue to
8:02
Speaker 4: Health and replacing with new people, it seems excessive. Clearly,
8:06
Speaker 4: the Trump administration and under Kensey's leadership, could absolutely replace
8:11
Speaker 4: all the political appointments. And I don't know the exact number,
8:14
Speaker 4: but I suspect those are in the dozens, but not
8:17
Speaker 4: in the hundreds, and that the real question will be
8:21
Speaker 4: whether agency staff further down below in non political roles,
8:25
Speaker 4: you know, are going to want to be around and
8:27
Speaker 4: be part of an administration and are going to stick
8:29
Speaker 4: around to resist what's going to happen, or whether they're
8:32
Speaker 4: just going to think the time is right to get out.
8:35
Speaker 4: But I don't think he can YouTube this unilaterally.
8:38
Speaker 1: After vaccines. Another one of Kennedy's big targets is getting
8:42
Speaker 1: rid of fluoride in the water. There has been floride
8:45
Speaker 1: in the water in the US since nineteen forty five,
8:48
Speaker 1: So explain what it does.
8:51
Speaker 4: For decades and decades we've had florida in the water
8:53
Speaker 4: to promote dental health, like it's been seen as something
8:57
Speaker 4: that an essential kind of way to change dentile health,
9:00
Speaker 4: to make children's teeth stronger. It's always been seen as
9:03
Speaker 4: something that was a positive sign and a sign of
9:05
Speaker 4: advanced development. RFK has now been making arguments again without evidence,
9:11
Speaker 4: that florid in the water is causing arthritis, it is
9:13
Speaker 4: causing bone cancer, is causing neurodevelopmental disorders. He has all
9:18
Speaker 4: kinds of theories which again are unproven. Generally, florid in
9:21
Speaker 4: the water has been seen as really a sort of
9:24
Speaker 4: prophylactic way to get American kids to make sure their
9:27
Speaker 4: teeth are strong, prevent tooth to k and the idea
9:31
Speaker 4: that it has all these secondary effects is really it's
9:34
Speaker 4: part of this whole unproven area of medicine where there
9:38
Speaker 4: are plenty of theories. You can always find a doctor
9:41
Speaker 4: an alternative medicine approach that will, you know, argue that
9:45
Speaker 4: that's actually the problem, but there's no support for it whatsoever.
9:48
Speaker 4: So he is going to have ignore his power through CDC.
9:52
Speaker 4: Whether he's actually going to be able to, you know,
9:54
Speaker 4: single handedly have florid removed from the public water is unlikely.
9:58
Speaker 4: I think there's too many the state public health authorities,
10:02
Speaker 4: and this is such an established part of US public
10:05
Speaker 4: water supply policy that it's hard to imagine he's actually
10:08
Speaker 4: gonna advance do anything here other than certainly erode public
10:13
Speaker 4: support for something that's been uncontroversial.
10:15
Speaker 1: He wrote on social media on January twenty, the Trump
10:19
Speaker 1: White House will advise all US water systems to remove
10:23
Speaker 1: fluoride from public water. But it's the states right who
10:27
Speaker 1: have control over the fluoride in the water exactly.
10:31
Speaker 4: It's public health authorities at the state level, So his
10:33
Speaker 4: ability to remove fluoride from all these locally regulated water
10:38
Speaker 4: systems is extremely limited. The only power that he really
10:42
Speaker 4: has with the Center for Disease Control and the extent
10:46
Speaker 4: that his policies are shared by any allies that the
10:50
Speaker 4: PPA is to really change policy on this issue in
10:53
Speaker 4: terms of setting standards, for example, for what our state
10:56
Speaker 4: fluoride levels. But again, this is one of those areas
11:00
Speaker 4: where you know, floride has been widely embraced by all
11:03
Speaker 4: public health organizations as having enormous benefits in preventing to Hey,
11:08
Speaker 4: if you go back to the pre florid era of
11:11
Speaker 4: the kind of dental problems that people had, it becomes
11:13
Speaker 4: very clear why this was like a really a transformative
11:16
Speaker 4: in terms of improving dental health. So it's hard to
11:19
Speaker 4: believe he may undermine public support for it. He could
11:23
Speaker 4: try to, if he really was successful, he could sort
11:26
Speaker 4: of try to change some federal standards on this, but
11:28
Speaker 4: as a practical matter, most states and counties and other
11:32
Speaker 4: local authorities are going to probably stand pat and we're
11:36
Speaker 4: not going to see any change in the floride in
11:38
Speaker 4: US water.
11:39
Speaker 1: Coming up next on The Bloomberg Lawn Show, I'll continue
11:41
Speaker 1: this conversation with healthcare attorney Harry Nelson. What about Robert
11:46
Speaker 1: Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again movement? I'm June Grass. So
11:51
Speaker 1: when you're listening to Bloomberg, President elect Donald Trump is
11:54
Speaker 1: tapping Robert F. Kennedy Junior to run the Department of
11:58
Speaker 1: Health and Human Services, a move that would elevate a
12:01
Speaker 1: prominent vaccine skeptic and pharmaceutical industry critic to the top
12:06
Speaker 1: roll on federal health policy. Kennedy has advanced a host
12:10
Speaker 1: of unorthodox views on public health, most notably questioning the
12:15
Speaker 1: safety and efficacy of vaccines during the COVID nineteen pandemic.
12:20
Speaker 1: He called the shots a crime against humanity and compared
12:25
Speaker 1: them to the Nazi Holocaust.
12:27
Speaker 2: They're going to have the right to compel unwanted medical
12:32
Speaker 2: interventions on us. We you know the Nazis did in
12:36
Speaker 2: the camps.
12:37
Speaker 1: I've been talking to healthcare attorney Harry Nelson. Harry Kennedy
12:40
Speaker 1: has been making a lot of threats. He's also threatened
12:43
Speaker 1: to throw out entire departments of the FDA.
12:46
Speaker 4: Throwout so FDA is with healthyy reservices, so he will
12:50
Speaker 4: have significant control and the ability to appoint leadership. There
12:54
Speaker 4: there's a lot of really interesting questions. The one that
12:57
Speaker 4: interests me the most is actually, you know, the issue
12:59
Speaker 4: of for pristones. Ordinarily, we have seen that historically drug policy,
13:04
Speaker 4: which drug is get approved has not been a politicized process.
13:08
Speaker 4: But the exception has been the abortion drug myth of Priystone,
13:12
Speaker 4: which is now being used in the vast majority of
13:16
Speaker 4: abortions in the US and has been distributed since the
13:20
Speaker 4: first Trump administration and early Biden administration, has been distributed
13:24
Speaker 4: by telemedicine, creating a new level of privacy and access.
13:28
Speaker 4: So there was an effort to try to block it,
13:31
Speaker 4: and Supreme Court turned it away, was not interested in
13:33
Speaker 4: interfering with the FDA. But now the question becomes canon
13:36
Speaker 4: RFA led FDA actually begin an effort to restrict access.
13:41
Speaker 4: So that's a really important question. And also to me,
13:44
Speaker 4: the question is really interesting is the scent to which
13:46
Speaker 4: rf case owned positions on abortions seems to be much
13:51
Speaker 4: more open and permissive in contrast to some of the
13:54
Speaker 4: other people around President Trump. So who's going to control
13:58
Speaker 4: that process of appointments is super interesting, and I do
14:02
Speaker 4: think we're going to see potentially a newly politicized process,
14:06
Speaker 4: certainly on this drug and possibly on others. One thing
14:09
Speaker 4: that's really really interesting is peptides and stem cells and
14:14
Speaker 4: other kinds of therapies that are also under FDA that
14:18
Speaker 4: are currently very restricted. We've seen, by the way, the
14:21
Speaker 4: number one weight loss drug in America these days, ozembic
14:25
Speaker 4: with Govi Munjaro, whateveryone to call it is the Eli,
14:29
Speaker 4: Lilly and nov Noordous versions of pet sides, which are
14:33
Speaker 4: strings of amino acid in the human body, and the
14:36
Speaker 4: SEA has not allowed under its existing rules pepsides to
14:41
Speaker 4: be distributed legally unless they go through very very expensive
14:44
Speaker 4: drug approval, so RFK one of the more interesting parts
14:47
Speaker 4: of his policy to me is his threat to open
14:50
Speaker 4: up peptide, to open up greater stem cell therapies. These
14:54
Speaker 4: are areas where there's a lot of controversy again about
14:57
Speaker 4: how effective these things are. There seems to be a
14:59
Speaker 4: significant amount of and up public demands for drugs, and
15:03
Speaker 4: it's also a really interesting area to watch on federal policy.
15:07
Speaker 4: It's one of those areas where there clearly are things
15:10
Speaker 4: being distributed in the alternative medicine community, in longevity medicine,
15:16
Speaker 4: for example, that are kind of not legal at the
15:19
Speaker 4: moment that could become much more widely available. So a
15:23
Speaker 4: really interesting area to watch.
15:25
Speaker 1: What happens to the National Institutes of Health under RFK.
15:28
Speaker 1: When he was running for president, he said he'd tell
15:31
Speaker 1: the NIH to pause drug development and infectious research disease
15:36
Speaker 1: for eight years and instead focus on chronic diseases. And
15:40
Speaker 1: among the advances that were supported by money from NIH
15:45
Speaker 1: are a medication for opioid addiction, a vaccine to prevent
15:49
Speaker 1: cervical cancer, and many new cancer drugs. Kennedy has criticized
15:55
Speaker 1: ANIH for not doing enough to study the role of
15:58
Speaker 1: vaccines in autism.
16:01
Speaker 4: So it's terrifying that he, you know, is talking about
16:04
Speaker 4: potentially limiting ongoing funding of clinical research for drugs. We
16:11
Speaker 4: are on the precipice of because of the funding of
16:14
Speaker 4: the nationals due to health and supporting clinical trials making
16:18
Speaker 4: funding available, We're on the precipice of all kinds of
16:21
Speaker 4: really incredible in my practice, I hear, you know, just
16:25
Speaker 4: little pieces of the puzzle, but new cancer drug for example,
16:29
Speaker 4: that are in development and coming on the market. So
16:31
Speaker 4: he has enormous power over the National of Health that
16:35
Speaker 4: is the primary channel of how funding occurs for pharmaceutical research,
16:40
Speaker 4: and you know, doctors around the country and around the
16:43
Speaker 4: world are really you know, getting their research funded through
16:46
Speaker 4: this agency, So his ability to stop that funding is
16:51
Speaker 4: a little bit scary. It's nationalist due to health is
16:53
Speaker 4: actually I think it's something like twenty five to thirty
16:56
Speaker 4: different actual institution and centers working on different health issues.
17:01
Speaker 4: And his ability to shift the priorities entirely from again
17:04
Speaker 4: what has been a really until now a political process
17:08
Speaker 4: of just really trying to support good science is scary.
17:12
Speaker 4: It's hard to see where the funding would be picked
17:15
Speaker 4: up if NIH funding was really cut in the way
17:18
Speaker 4: that he is talking about.
17:19
Speaker 1: You've said scary and terrifying a couple of times. What
17:22
Speaker 1: do you think is the worst possible thing that can
17:25
Speaker 1: happen if he takes office.
17:28
Speaker 4: I do think that, you know, if RSK was actually
17:32
Speaker 4: allowed to fully influence through his various appointments and his
17:37
Speaker 4: budget advocacy, to really bring to a halt the fundamental
17:41
Speaker 4: infrastructure that is powering scientific research on drug development, that's
17:46
Speaker 4: certainly on the list. But for me, I think probably
17:49
Speaker 4: the scariest thing is just getting to a place where
17:52
Speaker 4: where public distrust of a floor out of the water
17:56
Speaker 4: of vaccines, of these very established pillars of our health
17:59
Speaker 4: system are actually genuinely open to question. I think we're
18:03
Speaker 4: kind of living in this era when you know, the
18:05
Speaker 4: things that we took as true are under attack, and
18:09
Speaker 4: to me, RF case potential to really take that to
18:12
Speaker 4: another level and to push his sort of crackpot ideas
18:16
Speaker 4: into mainstream acceptance is probably the single worst thing that
18:21
Speaker 4: I can think of.
18:22
Speaker 1: Will he face any problems with Trump's whole deregulatory agenda.
18:27
Speaker 4: I think that Kennedy's positions are all over the map,
18:31
Speaker 4: and there are places where he is pushing for kind
18:36
Speaker 4: of expansive permission. But fundamentally, I do think that his
18:40
Speaker 4: focus on, you know, taking away some of the restrictions
18:44
Speaker 4: that the pharmaceutical industry has placed through FBA and other
18:47
Speaker 4: sources is in alignment with the Trump administration. I think
18:50
Speaker 4: that part of the strategy that will you know, align
18:54
Speaker 4: with the irregulation is taking away rules like the Food,
18:57
Speaker 4: Drug and Cosmetic Act that have really limited the extent
19:01
Speaker 4: to which you know, different products can be in the market.
19:04
Speaker 4: So there is a place where Trump's uh focus on
19:07
Speaker 4: deregulation and Kennedy's agenda, do a ligne, and I think
19:10
Speaker 4: those are probably the places he's like to be most successful.
19:13
Speaker 1: What about his make America Healthy Again goal? I mean,
19:17
Speaker 1: is there anything good about what he's trying to do.
19:20
Speaker 4: Look, I think there is a positive aspect, you know,
19:23
Speaker 4: to his campaign for kind of addressing systemic issues in
19:27
Speaker 4: terms of exercise and wellness. Again. You know, RFK has
19:31
Speaker 4: positioned some of these things as if there was like
19:34
Speaker 4: a conspiracy between the pharmaceutical industry and the government to
19:37
Speaker 4: block people from general wellness. But I do think he
19:41
Speaker 4: could be a positive voice in the biggest picture. You
19:44
Speaker 4: know that the US health system is the one that
19:47
Speaker 4: sends the most for the worst outcomes in advanced industrialized country.
19:51
Speaker 4: We have one of the least healthy populations in the world,
19:55
Speaker 4: and that, by the way, that goes across all income levels.
19:57
Speaker 4: And so I think that RFK, if there's a positive
20:00
Speaker 4: to his approach and this Make America Healthy campaigns, it
20:03
Speaker 4: would be good to have someone in leadership who would
20:07
Speaker 4: promote prementitive health, exercise, a diet, and there's more that
20:11
Speaker 4: we could do in that area if we could actually
20:14
Speaker 4: move the needles than anyplace else. So in that respect,
20:17
Speaker 4: I do think urk has some positive aspects to his
20:21
Speaker 4: broad messaging.
20:23
Speaker 1: Last month, Kennedy threatened on social media to fire FDA
20:28
Speaker 1: employees for quote aggressive suppression of a host of unsubstantiated
20:34
Speaker 1: products and therapies, including stem cells, psychedelics, some of the
20:40
Speaker 1: discredited covid era treatments you were talking about before, And
20:44
Speaker 1: raw milk. I've been hearing a lot about raw milk.
20:47
Speaker 1: What's up with that?
20:49
Speaker 4: So the raw milk has become a really fascinating issue.
20:53
Speaker 4: You know, our k has become the huge promoter of it.
20:55
Speaker 4: But the real story on raw milk, there's a whole
20:59
Speaker 4: community again generally that's historically been on the fringes that
21:02
Speaker 4: believe that pasteurization of milk is sort of destroying health
21:06
Speaker 4: benefits and that raw milk is healthy. And the FDA
21:09
Speaker 4: has been completely intolerant of raw milk, even though there
21:13
Speaker 4: has been a growing demand for it. By the way, historically,
21:18
Speaker 4: in the era before we began pasteurizing milk, you know,
21:21
Speaker 4: bacterian milk used to kill thousand children every year. But
21:26
Speaker 4: what's fascinating is that this issue has really gotten traction,
21:30
Speaker 4: and it seems that a piece of it relates to
21:32
Speaker 4: the Amish community in the Dutch Country in Pennsylvania who
21:36
Speaker 4: were angered in the early Biden administration by a lawsuit
21:39
Speaker 4: that the FDA brought where they tried to shut down
21:42
Speaker 4: a milk factory that was serving the Amish community and
21:46
Speaker 4: men in Nite community with raw milk. And so the
21:49
Speaker 4: anger was picked up on by some of the Trump
21:53
Speaker 4: activists who went and registered this whole group that had
21:57
Speaker 4: historically not voted that apparently came out over whel It's
22:01
Speaker 4: not entirely to support the Trump campaign. I'm still waiting
22:04
Speaker 4: to find the actual number of how many votes, but
22:06
Speaker 4: I believe it was in the tens of thousands of
22:09
Speaker 4: votes for Trump related to raw milk. So rfk, he's
22:13
Speaker 4: always got that on his list of places where the
22:16
Speaker 4: government needs to stand down, and it's very likely that
22:19
Speaker 4: we are going to see FDA certainly enforcement. It's not
22:23
Speaker 4: actual rules changed to make it easier to produce and
22:27
Speaker 4: distribute raw milk, and it really was something. When we
22:30
Speaker 4: see the actual vote count in Pennsylvania, it may be
22:33
Speaker 4: that the Trump campaigns win there was directly tied to,
22:38
Speaker 4: you know, fighting the government on raw milk. So I
22:40
Speaker 4: expect that will be a sort of significant story to
22:43
Speaker 4: come out of leadership. If RFK is confirmed he has.
22:47
Speaker 1: No medical background whatsoever. Is that unusual? I mean, what
22:51
Speaker 1: are the qualifications usually for a director of HHS.
22:57
Speaker 4: You know, we have seen a lot of public health
23:00
Speaker 4: as a sort of standard. There have been non posicians
23:02
Speaker 4: who also were important public health leaders. It would be
23:06
Speaker 4: a new thing to have someone who has absolutely no
23:09
Speaker 4: professional background and no training whatsoever in either medicine or
23:13
Speaker 4: public health in this role, and to have someone who's
23:17
Speaker 4: fame in it is really for taking prominently positions as
23:20
Speaker 4: a layperson. So, you know, I don't think this is
23:23
Speaker 4: the only unusual Trump appointment, but certainly we have not
23:27
Speaker 4: seen any PEUS appointment to Health and Human Services that
23:30
Speaker 4: came so completely out of left field in terms of
23:33
Speaker 4: no connection to medicine, no connection to public health.
23:37
Speaker 1: And though Kennedy has promised to make America healthy again,
23:41
Speaker 1: there's a picture of him that's circulating on Trump's plane
23:45
Speaker 1: with a McDonald's Big Matt and a Coca Cola on
23:48
Speaker 1: the table in front of him. He's seated next to
23:51
Speaker 1: a group which includes Trump and Elon Musk. Thanks so much, Harry.
23:55
Speaker 1: That's Harry Nelson of Leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman Coming up
24:00
Speaker 1: Trump's pick for Manhattan US Attorney This is Bloomberg. Donald
24:03
Speaker 1: Trump's plans for the Justice Department have been a lightning
24:06
Speaker 1: rod for months, and his choice of brash lawmaker Matt
24:10
Speaker 1: Gates as Attorney General has sparked a political firestorm, probably
24:15
Speaker 1: the most controversial of his picks, But Trump's selection for
24:19
Speaker 1: another top position in the Justice Department is not engendering
24:23
Speaker 1: much controversy. He's tapping former regulator Jake Clayton to be
24:27
Speaker 1: the U s Attorney for Manhattan. The US Attorney's Office
24:31
Speaker 1: for the Southern District of New York is one of
24:33
Speaker 1: the most high profile offices in the country and often
24:37
Speaker 1: called the Sovereign District for its independent streak. The Manhattan
24:41
Speaker 1: US Attorney is sometimes referred to as the Sheriff of
24:44
Speaker 1: Wall Street because the office is famous for tackling complex
24:48
Speaker 1: financial cases. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Ava Benny
24:53
Speaker 1: Morrison Jay Clayton. He has no experience in criminal law.
24:58
Speaker 3: Tell us about him that makes it. J Clayton an
25:00
Speaker 3: unusual pick to lead the puberin District of New York
25:04
Speaker 3: US Attorney's office. He was a former Regulator. He was
25:08
Speaker 3: the chair of the SEC under the first transp administration,
25:12
Speaker 3: and he's been a corporate lawyer for a very long time.
25:15
Speaker 3: Most recently he's been at Sullivan and Cromwell and he
25:19
Speaker 3: is also on the board of directors for Apollo. But yes,
25:23
Speaker 3: a number of people have pointed out that he doesn't
25:25
Speaker 3: have a history with the office. He's never been a
25:28
Speaker 3: line prosecuted before, and usually veterans of SDNY uppicked to
25:33
Speaker 3: lead that institution.
25:35
Speaker 1: I mean, that is considered the premier US attorney's office
25:40
Speaker 1: in the country. Being Manhattan US attorney is sort of
25:43
Speaker 1: like the top of the pick. If you want to
25:45
Speaker 1: be a US attorney, tell us about that office.
25:48
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So, the Southern District of New York is
25:51
Speaker 3: widely regarded as the most impactful, the most powerful law
25:55
Speaker 3: enforcement office outside of Washington, DC. The leaders of that
25:59
Speaker 3: office go on on to big law firms all over
26:02
Speaker 3: the country. They go onto even more senior roles within
26:06
Speaker 3: the government to lead the SBI, etc. So it is
26:10
Speaker 3: quite a coveted role, and all eyes were on who
26:14
Speaker 3: Trump was going to nominate to fill that seat. After
26:17
Speaker 3: his election wins on November five, there was a little
26:20
Speaker 3: bit of anxiety about who would be in contention. I
26:23
Speaker 3: think we have to consider some of the issues that
26:26
Speaker 3: arose in the first Trump administration. That first administration chewed
26:30
Speaker 3: through two US attorneys the Southern District. One, Pre Bahara,
26:35
Speaker 3: was fired along with about fifty other US attorneys around
26:38
Speaker 3: the country when Trump's office. The second, Jeff Burman, he
26:43
Speaker 3: was forced to step down after some ongoing and long
26:46
Speaker 3: standing tensions with Trump's Justice Department officials in DC. Burman's
26:52
Speaker 3: actually written a memoir about his time at the office
26:55
Speaker 3: and described being put under pressure and having to withstand
26:59
Speaker 3: as from DC to interfere in some of those investigations.
27:03
Speaker 3: So you can understand why current and former prosecutors in
27:06
Speaker 3: the SDY community were a bit anxious about who Trump
27:10
Speaker 3: was going to name.
27:11
Speaker 1: Clayton is he may not fit the pattern of former
27:15
Speaker 1: SDNY chiefs, but he's not someone who'd be considered a
27:18
Speaker 1: controversial pick. I imagine the prosecutors there wouldn't have any problem
27:23
Speaker 1: with him being the US attorney.
27:25
Speaker 3: Exactly after Trump announced that he wanted j. Clayton to
27:29
Speaker 3: serve as SDNY US Attorney, I reached out to a
27:33
Speaker 3: few sources, and the resounding feedback was, We're relieved it
27:37
Speaker 3: could have been worse. Yes, he's not an alarm of
27:40
Speaker 3: the office, which would have given us some comfort, but
27:42
Speaker 3: he is certainly the next best thing. He's well regarded
27:45
Speaker 3: by people at Sullivan and Cromwell, in the legal community,
27:48
Speaker 3: and by former colleagues at the SEC. It's spoken to
27:51
Speaker 3: a number of people who describe him as a talented
27:54
Speaker 3: leader and a responsible regulator. So I think that, you know,
27:58
Speaker 3: even though it's kind of bucking this convention in not
28:01
Speaker 3: appointing someone who has been an STMY prosecutor before, there
28:05
Speaker 3: is a little bit of relief that Jay Clayton has
28:07
Speaker 3: been put forward for that role. And also people made
28:10
Speaker 3: the point that, yes, he might not have their prosecution experience,
28:13
Speaker 3: but he will more than likely surround himself in the
28:17
Speaker 3: STI leadership team with people who are very experienced, who
28:20
Speaker 3: know that office inside out, who have been led prosecutors,
28:23
Speaker 3: and who know how their bread and butter work, national security,
28:28
Speaker 3: a public corruption, white collar crime, how it works.
28:31
Speaker 1: And ava Trump had picked him to be the US
28:35
Speaker 1: Attorney for the Southern District before tell us what happened.
28:38
Speaker 3: Yes, during the first Trump administration, Jay Clayton was actually
28:42
Speaker 3: put forward as a contender for the Manhattan US Attorney position. Now,
28:48
Speaker 3: he didn't get very far because he found himself in
28:51
Speaker 3: the middle of a political standoff between the US Attorney
28:53
Speaker 3: at the time, Jeff Furman, and the Trump administration. Jeff
28:57
Speaker 3: Furman refused to stand so J. Clayton could be kind
29:02
Speaker 3: of parachuted into the role, and eventually Berman did step down,
29:07
Speaker 3: but only when he was assured that his deputy, Audrew Strauss,
29:12
Speaker 3: could serve in that position. So Clayton certainly missed out
29:15
Speaker 3: that time. But from what we've heard from people who
29:18
Speaker 3: know him, he has been keen to return to government
29:20
Speaker 3: this time around. His name had been bandied around as
29:24
Speaker 3: a contender for either the attorney general position in DC
29:28
Speaker 3: or for Treasury Secretary. So it was a little bit
29:30
Speaker 3: of a surprise last week when Trump announced that he
29:33
Speaker 3: was actually going to nominate j. Clayton to be SDNY
29:37
Speaker 3: US Attorney.
29:38
Speaker 1: All the US attorneys resign when a new president comes in.
29:42
Speaker 1: Any information about what the current Manhattan US Attorney, Damien Williams,
29:46
Speaker 1: is going to do.
29:48
Speaker 3: We don't know what Damien Williams is planning to do.
29:52
Speaker 3: You're right, it's inevitable that he will be asked to
29:56
Speaker 3: leave or resign on his own terms, along with the
30:00
Speaker 3: the US Attorneys appointers under the Biden administration. I think
30:04
Speaker 3: there's a lot of interest in what he plans to
30:06
Speaker 3: do next. You know, he's overseen some huge cases while
30:10
Speaker 3: he's been at SDMY, the prosecution of New York Mayor
30:14
Speaker 3: Eric Adams, our KAGOS founder Bill Huang, not to mention
30:18
Speaker 3: the multi billion dollar Ford at FTX. So yeah, it
30:22
Speaker 3: would certainly be very interesting to see what he chooses
30:25
Speaker 3: to do next.
30:26
Speaker 1: And Trump has picked two of his personal lawyers for
30:29
Speaker 1: important roles in the Justice Department.
30:32
Speaker 3: Outside of sd Andy. Trump has also wasted no time
30:36
Speaker 3: in putting forward the names of people that he wants
30:39
Speaker 3: to serve in other top Justice Department roles. Among them
30:43
Speaker 3: are his two personal criminal defense attorneys, Todd Blanche and
30:47
Speaker 3: Amil Both they represented him during his hush money trial
30:51
Speaker 3: in New York.
30:52
Speaker 1: And Trump has also appointed the lawyer who argued the
30:57
Speaker 1: presidential immunity case for him at the Supreme Court to
31:01
Speaker 1: be the Solicitor General of the United States. So he's
31:04
Speaker 1: keeping his former defense lawyers employed is one way I
31:07
Speaker 1: guess to look at it. And all these appointees will
31:10
Speaker 1: have to work with Matt Gates if he's confirmed as
31:14
Speaker 1: Attorney General.
31:16
Speaker 3: Definitely, it felt like Matt Gates came out of left field.
31:19
Speaker 3: He certainly wasn't in the name of contenders that were
31:23
Speaker 3: being bandied around to the Attorney general position, and it
31:27
Speaker 3: created a bit of heightened anxiety among the semi community
31:31
Speaker 3: about who would then be selected to lead this really
31:34
Speaker 3: powerful and impactful law enforcement office. So one of the
31:39
Speaker 3: challenges I think that Jay Clayton will face as Manhattan
31:42
Speaker 3: ust Attorney is how he balances that relationship with main
31:47
Speaker 3: Justice and with someone like Matt Gates, who will be
31:50
Speaker 3: in the most powerful position in the Justice Department. That
31:53
Speaker 3: all said, Matt gay tastic get confirmed at least in
31:57
Speaker 3: theory by the Senate, and you know, there are some
32:00
Speaker 3: issues about his history. Mixingwell reported that he was investigate
32:04
Speaker 3: father Justice Department for sex trafficking, though charges were never laid.
32:09
Speaker 3: So it's certainly setting up to be quite a colorful
32:13
Speaker 3: and explosive Senate confirmation hearing. If it goes down that route.
32:17
Speaker 1: The Senate confirmation hearings will probably be some for the books.
32:21
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Eva, That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Eva Benny Morrison,
32:26
Speaker 1: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.
32:29
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32:31
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