Latest / Gil I Am / Heated Debate_ Slavery, Reparations & Colonialism with Rafe Heydel-Mankoo and Kehinde Andrews

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Heated Debate_ Slavery, Reparations & Colonialism with Rafe Heydel-Mankoo and Kehinde Andrews · Gil I Am

0:01
Speaker 1: My family from Jamaica, so I have direct heritage here.
0:03
Speaker 1: The harm has never actually been addressed.
0:04
Speaker 2: The problem is there are no victims of British Empire
0:07
Speaker 2: slavery today. You can't have intergenerational trauma for eight generations.
0:11
Speaker 2: That's simply absurd.
0:13
Speaker 1: Every single thing that powered in neust Revolution was labor.
0:16
Speaker 2: The contribution of say, of slavery to the British economy
0:20
Speaker 2: was less than five percent.
0:21
Speaker 1: They said, distortions of white historians that this can't accept.
0:24
Speaker 2: That's right now, that's racist, racist, true.
0:27
Speaker 1: The psychosis of whiteness, the rosy iView of the world
0:32
Speaker 1: where you can ignore what's happened, is directly ignore the
0:34
Speaker 1: implications which are very clear today. When Europeans came in
0:38
Speaker 1: for they weren't massively technology more technologary events. It's eugenics.
0:42
Speaker 1: It's a eugenics dressed up in something else, cultural racism.
0:45
Speaker 1: Can you explain why the poorest part of the word
0:47
Speaker 1: is black and the rich part the world is white?
0:50
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0:54
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0:57
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1:01
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1:05
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1:13
Speaker 4: Welcome to Trigonometry Debates. The subject for today is reparations
1:17
Speaker 4: and slavery, should Britain and other Western countries pay them?
1:20
Speaker 4: I'm delighted to be joined by former trigonometri guest and
1:23
Speaker 4: historian and broadcaster ravehead or Manku. Welcome and I will
1:27
Speaker 4: get this your name wrong even though you corrected me,
1:29
Speaker 4: and I want to get a right Khindi Kyan d Yeah,
1:32
Speaker 4: I told you d KENJ Andrews, who is Britain's first
1:35
Speaker 4: professor of Black studies, academic and broadcasters. Well, welcome to
1:38
Speaker 4: you both. I really appreciate you coming. I probably don't
1:41
Speaker 4: need to say which side either of you arguing, for
1:42
Speaker 4: you're both well known on these positions. I want both
1:46
Speaker 4: of you to have a chance to set your stall out,
1:48
Speaker 4: so six seven minutes each kind of would you like
1:51
Speaker 4: to go first?
1:52
Speaker 1: Yeah? So, yeah, thanks for being Thanks for the invitation.
1:54
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the key thing with this when
1:55
Speaker 1: we think about reparations with slavery is we have the
1:58
Speaker 1: frame that we're using is of wrong, and there's so
2:00
Speaker 1: many because it's wrong, we just get the debate wrong.
2:03
Speaker 1: So if you actually think about reparation for slavery correctly,
2:05
Speaker 1: there really is no argument against, no good argument, all right.
2:09
Speaker 1: The way I'd put it is, I'd use my favorite Malcolmics,
2:11
Speaker 1: who says, if you stick a knife in my back
2:13
Speaker 1: nine inches and pull it out six inches, we haven't
2:16
Speaker 1: made any progress. Even if you pull it all the
2:18
Speaker 1: way out, we still haven't made any progress. You actually
2:20
Speaker 1: have to heal a wound. Now, what we think of
2:22
Speaker 1: as slavery as something that was long ago, a distant
2:24
Speaker 1: harm that happened and ended, that is clearly nonsensible. If
2:27
Speaker 1: slavery is the knife going into our backs, and then
2:30
Speaker 1: abolition is probably pulling it at three inches. But on abolition,
2:34
Speaker 1: and particularly look at Britain, on abolition, the enslave to Britain.
2:37
Speaker 1: My family from Jamaica, so I have direct heritage here.
2:41
Speaker 1: The enslaved who worked for three hundred years on our
2:42
Speaker 1: island with no pay, in abject poverty when slavery was
2:46
Speaker 1: abolished got zero nothing. The slave owners got the largest
2:49
Speaker 1: payer in the Gritish government history. One hundred billion is
2:53
Speaker 1: actually the number we should have equivalent forty percent of
2:56
Speaker 1: income five percent of GDP at the time was given
2:58
Speaker 1: to these slave owners. What does that do. That entrenches
3:01
Speaker 1: the wealth and that entrenches the poverty. So after slavery ends,
3:04
Speaker 1: it's not like this is done and finished. Then we
3:06
Speaker 1: have to live in Jamaica on a colony. Slave colony
3:08
Speaker 1: is still living in the same kind of conditions. There's
3:10
Speaker 1: a reason why eighteen sixty five, thirty years after slavery
3:13
Speaker 1: is abolished in Jamaica, is a massive uprising because the
3:16
Speaker 1: conditions are still terrible even now go forward one hundred two. Yes,
3:20
Speaker 1: because the wealth from slavery is still there and the
3:22
Speaker 1: poverty from slavery is still there. The harm has never
3:25
Speaker 1: actually been addressed, and it's very clear to trace. So
3:27
Speaker 1: we shouldn't think of slavery as something which happened a
3:29
Speaker 1: long time ago and therefore we should be past it
3:32
Speaker 1: because the harm was never addressed, and because it then
3:34
Speaker 1: continued with colonialism, with modern day racism. Why did my
3:38
Speaker 1: family move here in the first place from Jamaica. It
3:41
Speaker 1: wasn't a voluntary thing. It was because they were put
3:43
Speaker 1: in deep poverty and there was no There was no
3:45
Speaker 1: society where you could get jobs, so they had had
3:47
Speaker 1: to come here, and what did they find when they
3:49
Speaker 1: came to the UK? Racism, segregation, et cetera, cetera, et cetera.
3:52
Speaker 1: So if you're going to look at the black and
3:55
Speaker 1: white wealth gap in the UK, in the Caribbean, in
3:57
Speaker 1: the world, it is impossible to not trace that directly
4:00
Speaker 1: to slavery. And actually, when you think about the arguments
4:03
Speaker 1: of reparation of slavery which have come from Caribbean countries,
4:07
Speaker 1: which have come from American countries, which have come from
4:09
Speaker 1: Africa as well, another massive misconception here is that Africas
4:12
Speaker 1: that have benefits from slavery. This is completely ridiculous. Africa
4:16
Speaker 1: was destroyed by slavery. Africa's economy was ruined by slavery
4:19
Speaker 1: to the point where in nineteen ninety nine there was
4:21
Speaker 1: a pecific claim from the African continent for seven hundred
4:24
Speaker 1: and seventy seven trillion dollars to repay the damage in
4:27
Speaker 1: the Caribbean and the damage to Africa. There is no
4:30
Speaker 1: way to explain why black people today are at do
4:34
Speaker 1: you look at mostatistic So at the bottom of the
4:36
Speaker 1: economic pole, look at cistics around life, expected see at
4:39
Speaker 1: the bottom of that, and then look at why the
4:42
Speaker 1: richest part of the world is the West, where the
4:44
Speaker 1: white people live is the richest. That's directly down the slavery.
4:48
Speaker 1: So if there is literally no doubt that there is
4:51
Speaker 1: a debt ode a large debt that is old, and
4:54
Speaker 1: really reparations usually fall down on how do you do it?
4:57
Speaker 1: Like what's the practicality of paying reparation? Which is a
5:00
Speaker 1: different question, but on the principle of should there be
5:02
Speaker 1: reparations there? Really, like I said, there's no actual good argument.
5:05
Speaker 1: There's just a lot of obstification what about toy and
5:09
Speaker 1: completely misunderstanding that it may Like I said, the knife
5:13
Speaker 1: is very difficult to argue the knife is more than
5:15
Speaker 1: six inches out of the back of black people since
5:17
Speaker 1: slavery if you look at the global economy today. So
5:19
Speaker 1: until it's out, then until the wound is healed, reparations
5:23
Speaker 1: have to be due.
5:24
Speaker 4: Since you haven't used all your time, can I just
5:25
Speaker 4: ask one follow up before RAF jumpson, which is about
5:28
Speaker 4: the practicality of this, which is you say it's a
5:30
Speaker 4: separate issue, but do you have some thoughts on how
5:33
Speaker 4: it might actually be done, because for a lot of people,
5:35
Speaker 4: I think that's actually quite a big question. They might
5:37
Speaker 4: instinctively agree with the idea that clearly some something is odd,
5:42
Speaker 4: but without knowing what the rule of doing that is,
5:45
Speaker 4: and that might be the obstacle for them.
5:47
Speaker 1: Yeah so, I mean, actually, I think the worst way
5:50
Speaker 1: to do it would be individual reparations, so that I
5:52
Speaker 1: don't need slave slave reparations. Actually, now, the one bearer
5:55
Speaker 1: I do want my own individual slave reparations would be
6:00
Speaker 1: the British government took this a loan out to pay
6:02
Speaker 1: for the slave owner reparations that were so large it
6:06
Speaker 1: wasn't paid back until twenty fourteen, which means myself, my family,
6:10
Speaker 1: all my family descended from the Enslade actually paid slave
6:13
Speaker 1: owner conversation, I do want that money back. I think
6:15
Speaker 1: that should be an individual payment. I'll have that money book.
6:18
Speaker 1: But generally speaking, it's about you would set up a
6:21
Speaker 1: fund in the UK and America. You would for the
6:26
Speaker 1: for the supporting development of black people. If you look
6:28
Speaker 1: at the Carracom countries, they're asking for two nation states
6:30
Speaker 1: rather than two individuals. I'm always a big fan of
6:34
Speaker 1: the carrib in nation states and how they manage their money.
6:35
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, but certainly not individual. It is about
6:39
Speaker 1: how do you set up some kind of fund that
6:41
Speaker 1: can be used to develop black community because this is
6:43
Speaker 1: the problem, because of this economic damage that was done
6:46
Speaker 1: and hasn't ever been restored. This is why we're behind
6:48
Speaker 1: in the world, and so you have to have some mechanism,
6:50
Speaker 1: some fund, some tool, some way that can that we
6:53
Speaker 1: can use the money to address that and to rejust
6:55
Speaker 1: that balance.
6:56
Speaker 2: Right, Well, thanks for having me and thanks for having
6:59
Speaker 2: this discussion. Just to correct your big kahinti, you and
7:03
Speaker 2: your mother or grandmother weren't paying any money. This is
7:07
Speaker 2: quite an often quoted aspect about payment for preparation that
7:11
Speaker 2: it didn't end until twenty fourteen, the repayment of the loan,
7:15
Speaker 2: and it's quite it's not your fault that there was
7:17
Speaker 2: a tweet put out by the Treasury which was extremely
7:19
Speaker 2: ill advised and mistaken. What happened was that the slave
7:23
Speaker 2: owner's debt was actually repaid somewhere between eighteen thirty five
7:26
Speaker 2: and nineteen twenty seven. And the confusion arises because of
7:29
Speaker 2: the way in which Britain financed its debt. It was
7:31
Speaker 2: using undated guilts and before nineteen twenty seven, we don't
7:34
Speaker 2: actually have any idea or any record of when those
7:37
Speaker 2: guilts were redeemed, so they it was probably paid off
7:40
Speaker 2: before nineteen twenty seven. What happened was in twenty fifteen
7:44
Speaker 2: the British government modernized its guilt portfolios and redeemed all
7:48
Speaker 2: of its undated guilts, and so therefore they could confirm categorically, well,
7:52
Speaker 2: it must have been paid by this point, because we've
7:54
Speaker 2: covered everything prior to that. But actually it was at
7:56
Speaker 2: least one hundred years older. So I'm afraid that reparations
7:59
Speaker 2: check won't be coming over. But anyway, Oh and you
8:06
Speaker 2: mentioned you mentioned Malcolm X also and the wound, well,
8:09
Speaker 2: it reminds me of Nietzsche's genealogy or morality, where he
8:13
Speaker 2: spoke about people who claw at a healed wound and
8:17
Speaker 2: when it bleeds and is painful, then known about the pain.
8:20
Speaker 2: And I would argue that slavery is a healed wound
8:23
Speaker 2: in the West, in Britain and the West, and essentially
8:27
Speaker 2: we are clawing at a wound that we didn't need
8:29
Speaker 2: to claw out any longer. And I think the British
8:31
Speaker 2: people understand that. So, for example, all polling shows that
8:34
Speaker 2: the vast majority of the British public are overwhelmingly opposed
8:37
Speaker 2: to the idea of reparations, and they understand. You know
8:40
Speaker 2: that the abolition of the slave trade happened more than
8:44
Speaker 2: two hundred years ago, and Britain was the leading force
8:47
Speaker 2: in the abolition of the slave trade. Reparations is a
8:50
Speaker 2: matter of tort law, and the whole concept of tort
8:53
Speaker 2: law is to put the victim back into the position
8:55
Speaker 2: they were in before the damage was caused. The problem
8:58
Speaker 2: is that there are no victims of British Empire slavery today.
9:01
Speaker 2: We're talking about five between five and eight generations ago.
9:06
Speaker 2: I would also say that for many people, well certainly
9:10
Speaker 2: I would hope would understand that for many on the left,
9:12
Speaker 2: this issue isn't actually about slavery at all. We talk
9:16
Speaker 2: about reparations and slavery, but quite often for the left,
9:19
Speaker 2: this is actually a weapon with which to attack and
9:22
Speaker 2: undermine Britain and America, and it's rooted in a deep
9:25
Speaker 2: hatred of the West. More broadly, in terms of Caribbean politicians,
9:30
Speaker 2: I would say two things. Firstly, it's clearly an avaricious
9:33
Speaker 2: cash grab to try to profit and capitalize and exploit
9:37
Speaker 2: naive Western guilt. I would also say that it's an
9:41
Speaker 2: attempt to deflect attention away from the corruption and the
9:45
Speaker 2: catastrophic mismanagement of the economies, of the institutions and the
9:50
Speaker 2: infrastructures of the Caribbean nations by corrupt and incompetent and
9:55
Speaker 2: substandard Caribbean politicians. Now, I am confident in saying all
10:02
Speaker 2: of that, because if this were really about slavery, then
10:06
Speaker 2: the people who are most vocal about the plights of
10:09
Speaker 2: black people and the plight of slavery would surely be
10:12
Speaker 2: just as vocal, I would say, even more vocal about
10:15
Speaker 2: the far more pressing issue, which is the plight of
10:18
Speaker 2: modern slaves. Today. The International Labor Organization says that seven
10:22
Speaker 2: in every one thousand Africans today is a slave. That's
10:26
Speaker 2: ten million people today living horrific lives. To put that
10:30
Speaker 2: into context, in the three hundred it took three hundred
10:33
Speaker 2: years of the transatlantic slave trade to transport ten million people,
10:37
Speaker 2: and that's the number that we have today. It seems
10:42
Speaker 2: to me quite clear that what is more important looking
10:46
Speaker 2: speaking out and drawing attention to the plights of ten
10:50
Speaker 2: million slaves, drawing attention to the Arab slave trade, which
10:53
Speaker 2: continues to this day where Africans are still shipped to
10:56
Speaker 2: the Middle East as slaves, is that more important or
10:59
Speaker 2: is HARKing back to historical injustices from two hundred years ago.
11:02
Speaker 2: I would say that is the key moral question to
11:05
Speaker 2: which there is only one answer. And yet all the
11:07
Speaker 2: people that I've spoken to and debated on this subject,
11:10
Speaker 2: who have been very vocal and write lots of articles
11:12
Speaker 2: about slavery, not once did they address the issue of
11:14
Speaker 2: modern slavery in the plight of black slaves today, And
11:18
Speaker 2: not once do they speak about historical slavery in the
11:21
Speaker 2: context of the non white actors the African There were
11:23
Speaker 2: more Africans held in bondage by other Africans than were
11:27
Speaker 2: ever transported outside of the outside of Africa. So I
11:32
Speaker 2: think those are the crucial ways to look at it,
11:35
Speaker 2: and I think therefore you can say that there is
11:37
Speaker 2: an ulterior motive motive here which is politically and ideologically motivated.
11:41
Speaker 2: But to go and look at look at the history
11:43
Speaker 2: of this, a few things to say. Firstly, of course,
11:46
Speaker 2: slavery was an abomination. What happened in nineteenth century slaves
11:49
Speaker 2: was utterly horrific and reprehensible, and if they were alive,
11:52
Speaker 2: they would be absolutely deserving of reparations. But I cannot
11:55
Speaker 2: see the connection whereby their great great great great great
11:58
Speaker 2: great grandchild is a victim. They're clearly not a victim.
12:02
Speaker 2: On the contrary, the lives of the descendants of slaves
12:05
Speaker 2: today in Britain and the Caribbean is incalculably better than
12:07
Speaker 2: if their ancestors had never left West Africa. Secondly, Britain
12:12
Speaker 2: has more than paid its debt for slavery. You know,
12:15
Speaker 2: slavery was universal, but Britain was the first country to
12:19
Speaker 2: make itself deliberately poorer to pursue a moral good, the
12:23
Speaker 2: abolition of the slave trade, expending vast sums in men,
12:26
Speaker 2: in money, in resources to enforce and enter the slave
12:29
Speaker 2: trade on the high seas, but also to go into
12:31
Speaker 2: Africa and stop Africans enslaving other Africans. I would also
12:36
Speaker 2: say that actually a form of reparations has already been paid.
12:39
Speaker 2: You know, the black slave descendants are not the indigenous
12:42
Speaker 2: peoples of the Caribbean islands, yet with independence they became
12:46
Speaker 2: the legal owners and the rulers of territory they never
12:50
Speaker 2: previously owned. That's a form of reparations. And also they
12:54
Speaker 2: inherited all the thing the great things that the British
12:57
Speaker 2: Empire created at great expense, schools, hospitals, power stations and infrastructure,
13:03
Speaker 2: the police, civil service, the army, the judiciary, parliament, democracy
13:11
Speaker 2: and the rule of law, the English language, all the
13:13
Speaker 2: things that were necessary to make sure that the Caribbean
13:16
Speaker 2: countries could become successful middle income countries, far richer than
13:20
Speaker 2: their African comrades. Anyway, that's my opening piece.
13:23
Speaker 4: Well, I had a lot of sighing from this side.
13:26
Speaker 4: But before you get into it, may I just asked
13:29
Speaker 4: one follow up with you rape as well, which is,
13:32
Speaker 4: can you really say with a straight face that there
13:35
Speaker 4: are no victims of slavery today? I mean, you go
13:38
Speaker 4: to America, you.
13:39
Speaker 2: Travel around the empire, slavery outside.
13:42
Speaker 4: Okay, but that's exactly what I'm saying. So if you
13:45
Speaker 4: go to America and you look at some of the
13:48
Speaker 4: ghettos in the cities in the United States and the
13:50
Speaker 4: way that people are there, is it really so hard
13:53
Speaker 4: to trace that back to a history of real horrific racism,
13:57
Speaker 4: legislation that prevented black people from living the same way
14:01
Speaker 4: that their white fellow citizens were, and then of course
14:04
Speaker 4: being transported there and used a slave label without being paid.
14:07
Speaker 4: Wouldn't all those things across generations have exactly the sort
14:11
Speaker 4: of impact that we now see on the ground.
14:13
Speaker 2: So two things. Firstly, I'm not talking about the American experience.
14:17
Speaker 2: I think racism is a massive issue in America to
14:20
Speaker 2: a degree we don't know or understand in this country. Here.
14:23
Speaker 2: Race is a huge divide in the United States, which
14:26
Speaker 2: it never was here. I mean, for example, you know,
14:28
Speaker 2: if you look from the from the nineteenth century onwards,
14:31
Speaker 2: are black Americans who came to the UK. They were
14:34
Speaker 2: amazed at the warm reception they received. Look at people
14:37
Speaker 2: like Howling Wolf, Great Blues, Otis Reading and others who
14:40
Speaker 2: were housed by white people in houses. The experience of
14:44
Speaker 2: black people in this country was wholly different. But to America, well, no,
14:52
Speaker 2: it was the Americans who brought them to America. Remember,
14:55
Speaker 2: but also let's select that's one point. But secondly, you know,
14:58
Speaker 2: if you look at the decline and a great deal
15:00
Speaker 2: of the poverty that's afflicted American black people, it has
15:04
Speaker 2: resulted basically from the destruction of the family post nineteen sixties.
15:08
Speaker 2: That's when you saw a huge, massive decline in the
15:10
Speaker 2: security and prosperity of so many families. You look at
15:13
Speaker 2: the decline, we look at the decline of Harlem in
15:15
Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties, and all sorts of thing on that levels.
15:17
Speaker 2: But I'm not here to debate them. The American situation.
15:20
Speaker 2: What I will say, you're going to talk about intergenerational trauma.
15:23
Speaker 2: We're talking about eight generations in this country right, two
15:25
Speaker 2: hundred years. The generation is twenty five years. That's your
15:28
Speaker 2: great great great great grandchildren. My own grandparents had experiences
15:33
Speaker 2: not different to slavery. They were deported to Siberia by
15:37
Speaker 2: Joseph Stalin. They were polls, They had all their lands confiscated.
15:41
Speaker 2: They ended up going in cattle trucks where they couldn't
15:43
Speaker 2: sit down, going to the Goo lags in Siberia and Kazakhstan.
15:47
Speaker 2: My great grandmother, who was blind in her eighties, died
15:51
Speaker 2: died there. Others will work to death. I had the
15:53
Speaker 2: Communists murder my family and the cat In massacre. The
15:56
Speaker 2: Nazis murdered my Polish Catholic family as well at Auschwitz
16:01
Speaker 2: and elsewhere. That's within the lifetime of my mother. You
16:05
Speaker 2: could argue that my mother had a bad experience about
16:07
Speaker 2: it all. I'm the grandchild. I don't feel like I'm
16:09
Speaker 2: a victim. I don't experience intergenerational trauma fundamentally affected my lives.
16:14
Speaker 2: Lost all of our properties in the States in Poland,
16:16
Speaker 2: and I'm living in a very different lifestyle. But I
16:18
Speaker 2: don't feel that I am a victim anyway. And that's
16:21
Speaker 2: within one generation. That's why I support reparations within one
16:24
Speaker 2: or two generations. I think it was right for the
16:26
Speaker 2: Germans to pay reparations. To Poland, I think it was right,
16:29
Speaker 2: and to the Jews, I think it was right for
16:30
Speaker 2: Japan to pay reparations, but not when we're talking about
16:33
Speaker 2: eight generations. There comes a point where you need to
16:36
Speaker 2: stop playing the victim. And unfortunately, that's why I talk
16:39
Speaker 2: about nature and and chloring at a wound that's healed.
16:44
Speaker 2: The more you talk about the fact that we are
16:46
Speaker 2: in this position because of other people. We need to
16:49
Speaker 2: actually depend on other people for handouts and begging. The
16:53
Speaker 2: less you take away your agency and the idea of
16:55
Speaker 2: personal responsibility. And I think a lot of this, the
16:58
Speaker 2: trauma that's been talked about, been festered by this constant
17:01
Speaker 2: negativity and focus. Whereas we look at places like Singapore
17:04
Speaker 2: for example, also a backwards colony where they essentially turned
17:08
Speaker 2: things around, created a great industry. We talk about India
17:11
Speaker 2: being an oppressed colonized state. They managed to turn things
17:14
Speaker 2: around super well. Poland because India on another occasion equally
17:24
Speaker 2: long debate about that. So I think that the time
17:26
Speaker 2: comes and you have to start looking within your own community.
17:29
Speaker 2: What is it within our community that is stopping us
17:31
Speaker 2: from progressing and succeeding rather than looking elsewhere. Why why
17:35
Speaker 2: do we have a youth culture that celebrates violence and
17:39
Speaker 2: misogyny and homophobia and that's openly supported. Why do we
17:42
Speaker 2: have single parent families with the fathers aren't involved, but
17:46
Speaker 2: look at those reasons and and why why do Africaribbean
17:50
Speaker 2: families not encourage their children enough in education to the
17:53
Speaker 2: same degree that you see with Chinese and Indian. So
17:57
Speaker 2: that's coming up.
18:00
Speaker 4: Why don't you address you were signed for a long time.
18:02
Speaker 4: So I'm actually you have lots of things to say.
18:05
Speaker 4: Go all right, people, it's trivia time. Financial trivia to
18:09
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Speaker 1: I mean, like I said to a start, there's no
19:46
Speaker 1: good arguments, and we've heard here is what about is complete?
19:50
Speaker 1: None senseiced like if so if we just if it
19:52
Speaker 1: was right to give as far as I understand your argument,
19:55
Speaker 1: it would have been correct to give reparations in eighteen
19:58
Speaker 1: thirty eight. Yes, yeah, absolutely, so that didn't happen. And
20:03
Speaker 1: because that didn't happen, there is a consequence that the
20:05
Speaker 1: poverty is still there and the wealth is still there.
20:07
Speaker 1: So how can you possibly mishold the argument in your
20:09
Speaker 1: head that if it was right to do it and
20:11
Speaker 1: you don't do it, then there's no consequences for not
20:13
Speaker 1: doing it. I mean that's simple. I mean, that's as
20:15
Speaker 1: simple take you're talking about. I don't race doesn't exist here.
20:18
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Like I've heard it very far before about
20:21
Speaker 1: this intensa focus on Jamaica on Caribbean country like Barbados, Antigua,
20:25
Speaker 1: small countries, small islands which have had been able to
20:27
Speaker 1: manage colonials a little better. Right, Jamaica has a population.
20:31
Speaker 1: It's bigger than Barbados and Tiga bosts of the Caribbean
20:33
Speaker 1: put together. There are ghettos in Jamaica. Do a make
20:35
Speaker 1: American ghettos look like like like literally friendly that none
20:39
Speaker 1: of us would walk through them today, and that you
20:41
Speaker 1: can and as you said, we wouldn't even be there.
20:44
Speaker 1: There should be no black people in Jamaica at all.
20:46
Speaker 1: Yet eighty percent of the eighty knight percent of the population,
20:48
Speaker 1: they've lived there and most of the living conditions of
20:50
Speaker 1: poverty that we wouldn't accept. So, no, the Caribbean isn't
20:53
Speaker 1: this great, wonderful place that people living in It's are
20:55
Speaker 1: wonderful to be in. Compare the audacity to suggest that
20:59
Speaker 1: because Jamaica is somewhat doing better than the African countries,
21:02
Speaker 1: therefore you are lucky to be in Jamaica. Well, that's nonsense.
21:05
Speaker 1: And again, as I said before, one of the biggest misconceptions,
21:08
Speaker 1: but one of.
21:09
Speaker 4: The people I don't understand what worry for saying is
21:12
Speaker 4: these people are better off And I'm not saying.
21:15
Speaker 1: I mean, are they relatively better rough? But again, this
21:18
Speaker 1: is the biggest misconception about slavery, is the slavery. When
21:21
Speaker 1: we talk about reparations, we're just talking about the descendants
21:23
Speaker 1: of the enslaved. Africa did not benefit from slavery. Africa
21:26
Speaker 1: was devastated by slavery. Slavery utterly destroyed the economy of
21:30
Speaker 1: the African continent. When Europe came into Africa, Europe couldn't
21:34
Speaker 1: colonize like it was not possible Europe. Africa was ahead
21:37
Speaker 1: of Europe. It is the centuries of slavery drawing out people,
21:40
Speaker 1: changing the economy. The means that Africa becomes diluted. I
21:43
Speaker 1: feel like, weakened to the point where in the nineteenth
21:45
Speaker 1: century European countries can take over. There's a reason why
21:49
Speaker 1: most African countries are colonized for less than one hundred years.
21:52
Speaker 1: Europe wasn't able to do it. Slavery completely destroyed the continent,
21:55
Speaker 1: which is why there was a claim in nineteen ninety
21:58
Speaker 1: nine to seven hundred and seventy seven trillion. So if
22:00
Speaker 1: I was going to explain why is Nigeria. Why is
22:02
Speaker 1: the life expendency in Nigeria fifty four? Why is the
22:05
Speaker 1: poorest part of the world by GDP per capita so
22:07
Speaker 1: called subshr in Africa? It's not coincidental that the place
22:11
Speaker 1: the slaves were taken from, that is the reason for it. So, yes,
22:14
Speaker 1: we might be slightly better rough in the Caribbean than
22:17
Speaker 1: they are in Africa. But both both of those things
22:19
Speaker 1: are about slavery, and there's both a harm that needs
22:22
Speaker 1: to be repaired. The other thing I'll send you by
22:24
Speaker 1: book The New Age of Empire. I am someone who
22:26
Speaker 1: talked deeply about the Islamic slave trade, of course is
22:28
Speaker 1: Lambi slave trade. In fact, with that is Lambic slave trade,
22:31
Speaker 1: there probably is no European slave trade. Well, Europe doesn't
22:34
Speaker 1: really have new ideas and just tend to copy other ideas.
22:37
Speaker 1: So the Islamic slave trade was horrendous, had a massive impact.
22:40
Speaker 1: But the key difference, and this is why the reparations
22:42
Speaker 1: claim is so important, is in the Arab slave trade
22:46
Speaker 1: it was predominantly about servants, so it's mostly women. Was
22:49
Speaker 1: mostly about servants, is mostly they wasn't wealth producing, right,
22:53
Speaker 1: is that the money in the Arab slave trade was
22:54
Speaker 1: the traders. There's actually stories of Arab slave traders who
22:57
Speaker 1: have so much money and they have nowhere to spend it.
22:59
Speaker 1: So what claim can I make to do a system
23:02
Speaker 1: that does didn't produce money the difference and the different No,
23:05
Speaker 1: but didn't produce produce well for the traders, but it
23:08
Speaker 1: didn't produce society. The difference between the major difference between
23:12
Speaker 1: was two main differences. Why again, we should never, never
23:15
Speaker 1: ever think that modern day soul called slavery is the
23:18
Speaker 1: same as shattle slavery. It is not shat or Slavery
23:21
Speaker 1: is a reduction of someone to a horse, a cow,
23:24
Speaker 1: and in English law, by the way, not American law.
23:26
Speaker 1: And for one hundred and fifty years the people it
23:29
Speaker 1: was the British Empire taking people to America. But there's
23:33
Speaker 1: no comparison in modern day slavery's a bad thing. Don't
23:35
Speaker 1: get me wrong. We shouldn't even called it slavery. The
23:37
Speaker 1: difference between the Ab slave trade and the.
23:40
Speaker 2: I'm not sure modern day slaves will feel the same way.
23:42
Speaker 1: Apparently, no words for one. Modern day slavery is illegal,
23:48
Speaker 1: it's a crime. Slavery was not it was. It was
23:51
Speaker 1: the thing that we all did. No, No, you can't.
23:55
Speaker 1: You can't compare it to you're not you're not shat
23:57
Speaker 1: or you're not you're not you're not literally leagerly defined
24:00
Speaker 1: legally defined as non human, which is what my ancestors
24:04
Speaker 1: were legally defined as a horse and a carry by
24:06
Speaker 1: the English courts, which is why America then carried on slavery.
24:09
Speaker 1: By the way, anyway, my point is the difference between
24:12
Speaker 1: the Arab slave trade, which didn't build Arabic society, was
24:15
Speaker 1: mostly I said mostly servants is terrible. I'm not saying
24:17
Speaker 1: their slave tab is great. It was surrenderous. But European slavery,
24:20
Speaker 1: it turned us into commodities, and it powered the industrial revolution.
24:23
Speaker 1: I've heard you argue before this isn't true. Every single
24:26
Speaker 1: thing that powers the industrial revolution. First is gold, then
24:28
Speaker 1: it's silver, then it's tobacco, then it's indigo, then it's cutting.
24:33
Speaker 1: Every single thing that powered industri revolution was slave labor.
24:37
Speaker 1: Named which one of those things we did not come from?
24:39
Speaker 1: Which one of those things did not?
24:42
Speaker 2: Which one does very long answers, which are making.
24:45
Speaker 1: Let'stick, let's stick under which one of those five.
24:50
Speaker 2: And the question the industrial if you look at the
24:53
Speaker 2: top five years. So the arguments that have been made
24:55
Speaker 2: by you and by Professor Beckel's are that the Industrial
24:57
Speaker 2: Revolution was caused by profits from the slave trade, that
25:01
Speaker 2: it was caused by profits from the sugar industry, and
25:04
Speaker 2: that it's under it's under investment and under development by
25:07
Speaker 2: gotten in the empire. That that that's right, Cotton, there
25:10
Speaker 2: was not a British Caribbean commodity that was from America
25:13
Speaker 2: that was that. But that's not part of that's not
25:17
Speaker 2: part of the reparations argument.
25:19
Speaker 1: You should not, it should be. It's a bad argument.
25:24
Speaker 2: Why what gets me is people on the left always
25:26
Speaker 2: look for a bad reason behind any excellence on the
25:29
Speaker 2: part of the West. It couldn't be because of British
25:32
Speaker 2: genius or because of situations and circumstances in this country
25:35
Speaker 2: that we've got the Industrial Revolution. There has to be
25:37
Speaker 2: a nefarious cause of any great Western achievement. Indest revolution
25:41
Speaker 2: happen because firstly, you had the agricultural revolution in the
25:44
Speaker 2: seventeenth century, which led to a surplus of labor, which
25:47
Speaker 2: meant you had an excess labor force that was then
25:50
Speaker 2: available to go into industry. You had abundant natural resources
25:53
Speaker 2: where you could literally pick up call off the ground,
25:56
Speaker 2: and you had iron resources. You had innovation and technology
26:00
Speaker 2: which was far in far in excess of what else
26:02
Speaker 2: happened elsewhere. And the reason you had such engineering and
26:04
Speaker 2: innovation technology if you read Joseph Professor Joseph Heindrich from
26:08
Speaker 2: Harvard University's book which we discussed on your show and
26:11
Speaker 2: on the Weirdest Minds in the World, the Weirdest people
26:13
Speaker 2: in the world. The Western mind by the eighteenth and
26:15
Speaker 2: nineteenth century was fundamentally different in how it viewed the
26:17
Speaker 2: world to the occidental mind.
26:19
Speaker 4: Actually, why is the racist come on different?
26:32
Speaker 1: Different? And then it leads to a great well, we.
26:37
Speaker 2: Can have a list of all the scientific and medicine
26:40
Speaker 2: discoveries that came out of Europe versus the rest of
26:41
Speaker 2: the world, if you'd like, we can take as long
26:43
Speaker 2: as it was finished. The points we also had in Britain.
26:47
Speaker 2: We had institutional stability, which you didn't have elsewhere, especially
26:51
Speaker 2: in Europe at this time as well, so we had
26:52
Speaker 2: political stability. We had the environment that was able to
26:55
Speaker 2: become conducive to the industrial revolution. We also had the
26:59
Speaker 2: financial mind kits which were unparalleled elsewhere. We had and
27:03
Speaker 2: we had we had the structures through through the stock
27:06
Speaker 2: market where you could actually create these sorts of situations,
27:10
Speaker 2: and so yes, of course we had trade routes and
27:12
Speaker 2: we had access to raw materials. But you cannot deny well,
27:16
Speaker 2: if you're looking for seventeen seventeen ninety eight, eighteen oh
27:20
Speaker 2: two was the five year periods or the most slave
27:22
Speaker 2: ships all right during if you look at seven and
27:25
Speaker 2: if you look at seventeen ninety two, for example, the
27:27
Speaker 2: peak year for slavery, there were two hundred and four
27:30
Speaker 2: slave ships. British total vessels were fourteen thousands. Slavery accounted
27:35
Speaker 2: for one point five percent of the total British fleet,
27:39
Speaker 2: three percent of tonnage. The contribution of say, of slavery
27:44
Speaker 2: to the British economy was less than five percent. It
27:46
Speaker 2: made certain people very rich. That's why you get some
27:49
Speaker 2: great country houses. It made places like Bristol and Liverpool
27:52
Speaker 2: very rich. But the amount of money we're talking about
27:55
Speaker 2: is so small that it didn't have any consequential effect
27:58
Speaker 2: on the on the on the British nation as a whole.
28:00
Speaker 2: If you look at the sugar industry, which is claimed
28:02
Speaker 2: it was fundamental for the industrial revolution, that amounted to
28:06
Speaker 2: two point five percent of net British national income call sheep, farming, wooden, industry,
28:12
Speaker 2: iron were all much higher than that. In seventeen seventy,
28:15
Speaker 2: which was the peaky for capital formation for sugar, it
28:19
Speaker 2: only kinded for three percent of capital formation. If sugar
28:21
Speaker 2: was such a hot commodity, such a great investment, you
28:24
Speaker 2: would have had money pouring into it from all other industries.
28:26
Speaker 2: You didn't get that. In fact, if you look at
28:28
Speaker 2: flax and linen from Scotland and Ireland, they became much
28:32
Speaker 2: more of a revenue generator for the British economy, far
28:35
Speaker 2: higher than sugar. Nobody has said that without flax and
28:38
Speaker 2: linen you wouldn't have had the Industrial Revolution. In fact,
28:41
Speaker 2: the contribution of sugar to the British economy was the
28:44
Speaker 2: same as barley and hops from which you make beer.
28:46
Speaker 2: And I don't recall anyone saying that beer was fundamental
28:48
Speaker 2: for the Industrial Revolution.
28:50
Speaker 1: Nowtuistic on the topic that we're on again, this is
28:58
Speaker 1: what is a quote, This distortions of white historians just
29:01
Speaker 1: can't accept.
29:02
Speaker 2: That's right. I remember that trying that no white historian
29:07
Speaker 2: is incapable of subject perspection, which means that you must
29:11
Speaker 2: have an equally perspective the history.
29:14
Speaker 1: Of white historians, which you're parroting right now, and it
29:16
Speaker 1: will tell you the truth. It's me looking at it
29:17
Speaker 1: and going, well, I remember I was in Ale of History.
29:20
Speaker 1: I did this, I did industr Revolution, and Ale of
29:21
Speaker 1: History got an a because I wrote a paper that
29:23
Speaker 1: said white people are great. That's basically the argument that
29:25
Speaker 1: you just made. And when I asked my teacher, I said,
29:27
Speaker 1: what about slavery, which at the time I didn't really
29:29
Speaker 1: know much about it. I was like, who knows what
29:32
Speaker 1: happened at the same time? Is it a coincidence? His
29:34
Speaker 1: response was, that's not in the textbook. Let's never talk
29:37
Speaker 1: about it again. And this is the classic nonsense you
29:40
Speaker 1: get from the stories like this. How could you possibly say,
29:44
Speaker 1: let me, let me finish, let me finish, You talk
29:46
Speaker 1: about that, we had financial stability, talk about the stock market,
29:50
Speaker 1: gold and silver, the first two things which are so
29:52
Speaker 1: important to European development. Where the gold and silver come from?
29:54
Speaker 1: I don't remember there being in the golden silver just
29:56
Speaker 1: lying around Europe, no no historian worth. They're salt? Would
30:00
Speaker 1: that what you tend to how they tend to white
30:02
Speaker 1: wises is they call it the Atlantic system going over
30:04
Speaker 1: to the West finding the Americas. No historian worth their
30:07
Speaker 1: salt would not say that that is the fundamental turning
30:10
Speaker 1: point of Western development. It would be. It'd be impossible
30:13
Speaker 1: not to unless you unless you're just gonna cclosialize about. No.
30:17
Speaker 1: I said, it's just things in Europe. Like I said,
30:19
Speaker 1: the key commodity is not just sugar. I didn't dis
30:21
Speaker 1: with sugar. I told you gold, silver, tobacco, indigo, sugar,
30:25
Speaker 1: and cotton. And no, you can't forget cottons because it's
30:27
Speaker 1: American slave produced. Oh no, no, wait, it's important because
30:29
Speaker 1: it's not just Bristol and Liverpool, whole cities that really
30:33
Speaker 1: wouldn't exist. Manchester doesn't exist unless it's a there's a
30:36
Speaker 1: canal that goes from Liverpool to Manchester. It brings all
30:39
Speaker 1: this slave produced cotton Birmingham where I'm from, the guns,
30:42
Speaker 1: the slavery, the chains, the slavery. The whole economy is
30:45
Speaker 1: on the pin by this. You can't just take off
30:47
Speaker 1: the Atlantic system and say it doesn't matter because they
30:49
Speaker 1: weren't that many slave ships. That's again no good arguments.
30:52
Speaker 1: All we're getting is, well, this this discount, just forget about.
30:55
Speaker 1: Let's not. Let's doing and if and if if your
30:58
Speaker 1: if what you're saying is true, why would the British
31:00
Speaker 1: government the biggest bail there it's ever given, because the
31:03
Speaker 1: only comparable bailer is to the banks. But that was
31:05
Speaker 1: apparently alone, right we got there back, there's no comparison
31:08
Speaker 1: to one hundred million, forty percent, forty percent of the
31:11
Speaker 1: government's forty.
31:13
Speaker 2: What you're saying, it's like, it's no, you asked the question.
31:17
Speaker 1: So now the government, he said, why what they did? They?
31:20
Speaker 1: That's not you know, that's the true forty percent government
31:22
Speaker 1: in gom to bail that slave owners if it wasn't
31:24
Speaker 1: a big doing.
31:25
Speaker 2: So firstly, it wasn't the biggest loan ever given. There
31:27
Speaker 2: was much more money.
31:28
Speaker 1: No, it wasn't a lot to do.
31:29
Speaker 2: Hold on, right, it wasn't It wasn't. It wasn't that,
31:31
Speaker 2: it wasn't the biggest payment ever given. It was far
31:33
Speaker 2: more done in a single year of Theapoleonic War than
31:35
Speaker 2: it was done and the same thing war the crime.
31:39
Speaker 2: The point to make is, of course, this is an
31:41
Speaker 2: issue of real politique, right, gee, we don't live in
31:43
Speaker 2: an idealist world. We have to deal with reality on
31:46
Speaker 2: the ground. The House of Commons was not the full
31:48
Speaker 2: functioning democracy it is today. If there was any hope
31:51
Speaker 2: of securing freedom for the slaves, it had to be
31:55
Speaker 2: done through payments. There was no other means for the
31:57
Speaker 2: British states to get it through Parliament.
31:59
Speaker 1: Why not?
31:59
Speaker 2: This was because it was a ma if you're aware
32:01
Speaker 2: of not Burroughs Andarliament. Yeah, sometimes you have abolitions, but
32:07
Speaker 2: you still have Unfortunately, corruption in the eighteenth and nineteenth
32:10
Speaker 2: century still had a degree of corruption in the British Parliament,
32:13
Speaker 2: still far less than anywhere else, but it was still
32:16
Speaker 2: enough there that you had to essentially ensure that people
32:18
Speaker 2: were paid for It is not pleasant, but that was
32:21
Speaker 2: the only way. So what would you rather done? No
32:23
Speaker 2: money would have been paid and the slaves would have
32:25
Speaker 2: remained in bonded for the foreseeable future until enough of
32:29
Speaker 2: the abolitionist movement was strong enough to actually everybody that
32:33
Speaker 2: needed to be done. But the arguments are so nonsensical,
32:36
Speaker 2: let me let me address them. For example, by your argument,
32:40
Speaker 2: Portugal in Spain should have been the first countries to industrialize.
32:43
Speaker 2: Spain was getting all of the gold, Portugal had double
32:47
Speaker 2: the number of slaves of Great Britain, yet they became
32:50
Speaker 2: economic backwaters. Why was that France had seven times the
32:55
Speaker 2: amount of coffee, it had seventeen times the amount of
32:59
Speaker 2: sugar exported, and of indigo exports, so indigo, cotton, sugar
33:04
Speaker 2: far more than Britain. Britain got from the Caribbean slaves.
33:07
Speaker 2: From Caribbean slaves, they weren't the first to industrialize. It
33:11
Speaker 2: was Britain that was the first to industrialize. And as
33:13
Speaker 2: a share of the Portuguese economy, the Brazilian Portuguese slave
33:18
Speaker 2: trade was far more lucrative for the Portuguese economy from
33:21
Speaker 2: the British economy. They didn't industrialize. Look at the United
33:24
Speaker 2: States of America, the Deep South, which was the slave
33:27
Speaker 2: owning states, they didn't industrialize. It was the emancipated north
33:31
Speaker 2: of this of the country that was the first to industrialize.
33:34
Speaker 2: Now you look at all those examples, and don't get
33:36
Speaker 2: sidetracked here, we're talking about Spain, France, Portugal, all of this.
33:40
Speaker 2: How come the how come those countries didn't become the
33:42
Speaker 2: first to industrialize. So when I say, they've given you
33:45
Speaker 2: the real reasons of the Invarian revolution and political stability
33:48
Speaker 2: and institutions of Britain.
33:50
Speaker 1: So for one, look unlike you, I won't say that
33:53
Speaker 1: there aren't other things which are important. So I'm not
33:55
Speaker 1: saying there aren't other things. I give you a list
33:59
Speaker 1: of other things which are in important. But it is
34:00
Speaker 1: impossible to discount how much that slavery meant. And the
34:04
Speaker 1: fact that Portugal and Spain don't they do a They
34:07
Speaker 1: do develop, they just don't develop at the same pace.
34:08
Speaker 1: So if you're going to compare, it's interesting. Now you
34:10
Speaker 1: don't want to compare compare port and French as economy
34:13
Speaker 1: to Africa and the Caribbeans economy. You can say there's
34:15
Speaker 1: a massive difference. So yes, I'm not saying looks just
34:17
Speaker 1: slavery is the only reason why Britain became Britain had
34:20
Speaker 1: the largest empire in the world, Britain had naval supremacy.
34:22
Speaker 1: There's lots of reasons why Britain developed, which but the
34:25
Speaker 1: point is you can't discount slavery and the massive impact
34:28
Speaker 1: that it had. And you also can't discount the wealth
34:30
Speaker 1: that very clearly is traceable and exists today from that
34:33
Speaker 1: and the poverty that is very clearly and traceable today.
34:36
Speaker 1: And so reparation is simply saying, look, there's a debt
34:38
Speaker 1: that was old then, which you actually accept in your argument,
34:41
Speaker 1: and was never paid, hence it should be paid.
34:44
Speaker 2: Like I said, but we're in agreement because I'm not
34:46
Speaker 2: discounting the contribution of slavery. What I'm saying is it's
34:50
Speaker 2: not massive as you were making out. You were saying
34:52
Speaker 2: that it was a massive involvement. It was all pies exist,
34:57
Speaker 2: it was a precondition. It was not major contribution. It was,
35:01
Speaker 2: as I said, three percent of the national income, akin
35:03
Speaker 2: to book, to Harley and to Balley and hops. That's
35:07
Speaker 2: my point. So it is not And the people that
35:10
Speaker 2: I've seen you quote before, Beckels and so forth, they
35:12
Speaker 2: predicate the entire thing on the value of the slave
35:15
Speaker 2: trade and on the value of sugar as being essential.
35:18
Speaker 2: And I'm seeing those are Marxist interpretations, and later historian
35:23
Speaker 2: David Elton Stanley Egerton have all disproved it.
35:27
Speaker 4: We're at the risk of losing the entire audience without
35:29
Speaker 4: the scent into academa. Interesting as it is from both
35:32
Speaker 4: of you, and I really appreciate it, But just coming
35:34
Speaker 4: back to sort of the more practical level. One question
35:38
Speaker 4: I always had, and this is a genuine question, right,
35:40
Speaker 4: So if I'm totally wrong. Please correct me. But as
35:43
Speaker 4: far as I understand all, it was so dangerous for
35:48
Speaker 4: European purchases of slaves in Africa to go ashore that
35:53
Speaker 4: almost the entirety of the slaves who were bought in
35:56
Speaker 4: Africa were sold by Africans. And that's always to those
36:00
Speaker 4: people who are aware of that, which is actually not
36:01
Speaker 4: that many people. That's always kind of to me. Well,
36:04
Speaker 4: even if we were to like who should be, we
36:07
Speaker 4: shouldn't be the people who sold and captured those slaves
36:10
Speaker 4: paying reparations. Do you say what I'm getting?
36:12
Speaker 1: No, I don't know. This is again terrible, terrible argument.
36:14
Speaker 1: But I'm just genuinely because they were Jewish collaborators in
36:18
Speaker 1: the Holocaust, does that mean that we should blame Jewish people,
36:20
Speaker 1: like it's a sime argument.
36:21
Speaker 4: Hold on, hold on, if we're gonna say no, we
36:25
Speaker 4: should go. But that's that's not a fair comparison. If
36:28
Speaker 4: if the Holocaust had been conducted by the Jews, that
36:32
Speaker 4: would be a very different conversation.
36:34
Speaker 1: But slavery wasn't conducted by African Maybe they sold all
36:37
Speaker 1: the slaves people. Well no, he again, there's a huge
36:41
Speaker 1: difference between so called no it's not no, no, no,
36:44
Speaker 1: no no. I think if we have definitions is really
36:46
Speaker 1: really important. What Europe did was a new thing. It
36:48
Speaker 1: was yes, it was slavery, slatory. They were in agriculture
36:55
Speaker 1: also slatory.
36:58
Speaker 2: They also had rights and there they were.
37:04
Speaker 1: Allowed. A person who does the first call for prayer
37:05
Speaker 1: in their correct is an enslaved African. They had rights,
37:09
Speaker 1: you could become free. And in African slavery, in terms
37:11
Speaker 1: of we were talking about, what was actually just said
37:13
Speaker 1: was African you Africans. African slavery was much more like serfdom.
37:16
Speaker 1: When you were part of the family, you had freedom
37:18
Speaker 1: at a certain time. It's actually much more comparable to
37:20
Speaker 1: serfdom than it is the shadow slavery. Shadow slavery is dehumanizing.
37:23
Speaker 1: It is literally the taking away of every single right.
37:25
Speaker 1: And it's quite likely that the people who sold who
37:28
Speaker 1: didn't actually know what they were doing, because remember African
37:30
Speaker 1: slavery doesn't actually take place mostly on the content the
37:33
Speaker 1: day to go far away.
37:34
Speaker 2: Quite Theish slaves who died being kidnapped transported to again.
37:40
Speaker 1: Point here is, of course there is there was huge
37:42
Speaker 1: there was huge rebellions. So yes, there were some Africans.
37:45
Speaker 1: One hundred percent who were complicit who There were whole
37:48
Speaker 1: kingdoms that essentially grew out of the idea of we
37:51
Speaker 1: walked trade enslaved people. But this was because of the
37:54
Speaker 1: conditions that were imposed. Right, it's not I'm say that
37:57
Speaker 1: they're not blameless. You're not hearing me say they're blameless.
37:59
Speaker 1: But again, if you look at the calculations for reparations,
38:03
Speaker 1: they are based largely not unharmed. They are based largely
38:06
Speaker 1: unpaid labor and the wealth gap, which is there so
38:10
Speaker 1: there is nobody in Africa.
38:11
Speaker 4: But so your argument is actually the reparations are owed
38:16
Speaker 4: because the slaves that were taken from Africa by European nations,
38:20
Speaker 4: they were used to produce things and therefore their descendants
38:23
Speaker 4: are owned effectively a chunk of that wealth that was
38:26
Speaker 4: produced using their labor. That's your argument.
38:28
Speaker 1: And plus again, and I want to stress here Africa
38:31
Speaker 1: Africa overall, Yes, you can find the million. I mean
38:34
Speaker 1: they were very like in terms of the population of Africa,
38:36
Speaker 1: how many were involved in trading people. That is a
38:39
Speaker 1: miniscule number. That is not that is a miniscule number.
38:41
Speaker 1: So the actual impact of flavor in Africa was to
38:44
Speaker 1: impoverish Africa. So I'm saying that the bases of reparations
38:47
Speaker 1: claims are one the unpaid label, which is just very
38:50
Speaker 1: very simple, undred the other big labor to the wealth
38:52
Speaker 1: that is accumulated and the damage that was done economically,
38:55
Speaker 1: which is still there you can still see today, which
38:57
Speaker 1: is why you don't go to the Arab slatory. You
38:59
Speaker 1: don't go to a few Africans who had Christ where
39:01
Speaker 1: sorf on?
39:02
Speaker 4: That is that not a fair point? If we could
39:04
Speaker 4: find some way, I know it's probably practice. The practicalities
39:07
Speaker 4: of this are difficult, admittedly, but if we could find
39:09
Speaker 4: some way to go, well, look, your great great great
39:12
Speaker 4: grandfather wasn't slave taken from Africa used as a as
39:16
Speaker 4: a laborer? That labor produced x amount of wealth and
39:19
Speaker 4: we and now you know, we've developed this magical system
39:22
Speaker 4: to trace that back and to be able to give
39:24
Speaker 4: you x percent of his labor. Would that not be
39:28
Speaker 4: a good thing to do?
39:29
Speaker 2: No, not at all, because you're talking about somes that
39:33
Speaker 2: are far smaller than what you're what you're discussing here.
39:36
Speaker 2: But also, of course there is no you know, it
39:38
Speaker 2: don't have such a rosy culored picture of what it
39:40
Speaker 2: was like in Africa for slaves. You know, you're just
39:42
Speaker 2: just in the In the kingdom of Dahomy, you had
39:44
Speaker 2: annual sacrifices where you had up to four thousand slaves
39:48
Speaker 2: murdered in human sacrifice rituals that were done there. You know,
39:53
Speaker 2: you talk about the Islamics. No, but you're trying to
39:55
Speaker 2: paint this picture that somehow slavery. There are different gradations
39:58
Speaker 2: of slavery. In the Islamic slave trade, you had millions
40:01
Speaker 2: of young boys were captured. Sixty percent of those millions
40:04
Speaker 2: of young boys died because they were castrated brutally without anesthetic,
40:07
Speaker 2: of course, and died from that. This idea that somehow
40:10
Speaker 2: they were walking about drinking.
40:13
Speaker 1: Yes you did.
40:14
Speaker 2: Actually it was different.
40:15
Speaker 1: I didn't say it was good. So let's speak to
40:17
Speaker 1: be clear what I said. It was different idea that
40:20
Speaker 1: that is what you said.
40:21
Speaker 2: But if you're going to create your formula, then who's
40:23
Speaker 2: going to pay for this? Out of a population of
40:26
Speaker 2: millions of people, there were only a few thousand slave owners.
40:29
Speaker 2: The majority of British people in this country descend from
40:32
Speaker 2: people who lived lives of abject poverty, akin to serfdom.
40:35
Speaker 2: Why should their tax money go to paying reparations. You know,
40:39
Speaker 2: over sixteen percent of this country is now foreign born.
40:41
Speaker 2: Why should somebody from who was born in Malaysia or
40:43
Speaker 2: Korea pay reparations? What about Jamaicans living here now? Why
40:47
Speaker 2: should they pay the tax money to people in Trinidad
40:49
Speaker 2: for reparations. I mean, the whole ideas was said as
40:53
Speaker 2: I say, you can't have intergenerational trauma for eight generations.
40:56
Speaker 2: That's simply absurd. You need to take responsibility. Of course,
41:00
Speaker 2: look to the great success stories of Africa in the past.
41:03
Speaker 2: Look for example, to you know, there are reasons for
41:05
Speaker 2: Africa's poverty right now, and it's it's it's corruption, it's
41:09
Speaker 2: a failure to manage the economy world the two There
41:11
Speaker 2: are only two countries in Africa which are success stories
41:14
Speaker 2: that rank in the top tier of the Human Development Index.
41:17
Speaker 2: That's Mauritius. And the why is that because they've got
41:21
Speaker 2: good government, good democracy, they have institutions that are respected
41:24
Speaker 2: and well supported, and they've allowed immigration into the countries.
41:28
Speaker 2: So there are lots of Indians in the economy who
41:29
Speaker 2: were helping the economy. Contrast that to what happened to
41:32
Speaker 2: South Africa. Contrast act to happen what happened with Zim
41:36
Speaker 2: with look a look at the economy as soon as
41:40
Speaker 2: you as soon as you turn out one group of.
41:44
Speaker 1: People in Africa is a solution that was actual racist ideas.
41:49
Speaker 2: You deny what happened to you Ganda after the Asian Indians.
41:56
Speaker 1: Do you gather.
41:58
Speaker 2: What happened to South Africa recent years? What's happened to Zimbabwe?
42:03
Speaker 1: Again be listed. It's not lie. So in Africa is
42:06
Speaker 1: not kicking people out, That's not what's happening at all
42:07
Speaker 1: because Africa is actually still under the control of both
42:10
Speaker 1: in the same Africa and.
42:11
Speaker 2: It's not like the corruption corruption.
42:16
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and you talk next to one in the Congo.
42:18
Speaker 2: Can you talk about Africa for example? You know that
42:20
Speaker 2: life expectancy in Africa, you said is sixty. It doubled
42:23
Speaker 2: because of the arrival of the Europeans in the country.
42:26
Speaker 2: A life expectancy for thousands of years has been twenty
42:28
Speaker 2: four to thirty five up to up to eighteen up
42:31
Speaker 2: to the eighteen fifties, eighteen sixties. It was the same
42:33
Speaker 2: in eighteen fifty as in fifteen fifty as in fourteen fifty.
42:37
Speaker 2: Since the since Europeans arrived because of medicine, vaccinations, antibiotics,
42:42
Speaker 2: clean water, sanitation. Life expectancy doubled, and the Caribbean was
42:46
Speaker 2: a beneficiary of far more of that. Life expectancy in
42:49
Speaker 2: the Caribbean is up to fifteen years longer than in
42:51
Speaker 2: West Africa. The GDP is over ten times higher. That's
42:55
Speaker 2: because of the inheritance that they got from the British Empire.
42:58
Speaker 1: That is I mean, cand of just be really really
43:01
Speaker 1: clear on this is. I think one of the things
43:02
Speaker 1: which gets lost also with reparation for slavery campaigns is
43:06
Speaker 1: the good ones are not just a bad slavery. It
43:08
Speaker 1: actually says so America, for example, has a whole slavery
43:11
Speaker 1: reparation campaign which recognizes slavery, recognizes Jim Crow, recognizes everything else.
43:15
Speaker 1: As I said, the knife wasn't pulled there. So when
43:17
Speaker 1: you're looking at someone like Africa, slavery happens, then colonialism happens.
43:21
Speaker 1: Solon Africa is literally underdeveloped by Europe. So anything you
43:24
Speaker 1: say about whether life is bad, it was that it
43:26
Speaker 1: was under.
43:29
Speaker 4: Und I want to talk for a long time. It's
43:32
Speaker 4: just a definition I'd love to get from me, because
43:34
Speaker 4: it's a word we hear a lot now colonialism. What
43:37
Speaker 4: does that mean? What is colonialism?
43:39
Speaker 1: So colonism is when one contrary entity controls another one
43:42
Speaker 1: for its own benefit. And so Jamaica is a colony
43:45
Speaker 1: from Britain from what sixteen and fifty five? Everything everything
43:49
Speaker 1: happens in Jamaica is you could still argue today because
43:52
Speaker 1: we do not have neo colonism, but colonials. Everything happens
43:54
Speaker 1: in Jamaica. Everyth happens in Nigeria when it's colonized, it
43:57
Speaker 1: is the benefit of Britain and so therefore places are underdeveloped.
44:01
Speaker 1: So the truth is, we have no idea what would
44:03
Speaker 1: happen if Europe hadn't come into Africa? Did the slave
44:05
Speaker 1: trade of colonism?
44:06
Speaker 2: Have no idea?
44:07
Speaker 5: What exactly you don't do we have Liberia Liberia were independent,
44:16
Speaker 5: they were independent, they were independent nations, and I'm sorry,
44:21
Speaker 5: still remain the lowest tier developed countries.
44:25
Speaker 4: It's my it's my mistake. I shouldn't have brought rayth
44:27
Speaker 4: and I apologize.
44:28
Speaker 1: You carry on. Liberia is actually been made up by America,
44:30
Speaker 1: So let's not pretend that Liberia has its long history.
44:33
Speaker 1: Ethiopia is the perfect example of being a country surrounded
44:36
Speaker 1: by other colonial countries. So Ethiopia may well not have
44:38
Speaker 1: been may well have been independent, but a country can't
44:41
Speaker 1: buy itself developed if it's surrounded by it's basically a colony. Naturally,
44:44
Speaker 1: Ethiopia is one of the in terms of what we
44:46
Speaker 1: call neocolonism there, which is after formal colonism ends. Yes,
44:50
Speaker 1: you have governments, but they are Popplic governments, in fact,
44:53
Speaker 1: many times installed by the West, and that's where the
44:54
Speaker 1: coruption actually comes from us, from Poplic governments. And you
44:58
Speaker 1: cannot mean that would be just a lie to pretend
45:00
Speaker 1: that's not the case. For example, in the Congo, Chelse's
45:03
Speaker 1: Mobutu is literally installed by the CIA and puppets and
45:06
Speaker 1: then literally to destroy the country. And it comes to England,
45:09
Speaker 1: It comes to England, comes to America, flies around in
45:11
Speaker 1: private jets and steals billions upon billions bon billions, with
45:14
Speaker 1: the consent of both the USA and the United Kingdom
45:16
Speaker 1: and Europe, et cetera. So the neoclonists when is when
45:19
Speaker 1: we have that it continues. So I'd argue, actually ethiel
45:22
Speaker 1: is one of the worst countries the neoclonism because it
45:24
Speaker 1: was surrounded wherever else. So the point is, don't just
45:27
Speaker 1: look at slavery is separate. Look at that history and
45:29
Speaker 1: tell me anywhere on this line from slavery to colonialism
45:32
Speaker 1: to neoclonism or racism, where has this debt that you
45:35
Speaker 1: say and the knowledge should have been paid? Where has
45:37
Speaker 1: it been paid? And not only has it not been paid,
45:39
Speaker 1: more things have been powered onto it. Third World debt,
45:41
Speaker 1: for example, piled onto it. All of these things piled
45:44
Speaker 1: onto it. So we actually have a position where it's
45:46
Speaker 1: far worse than just slavery. It's slavery colonalism, and where
45:50
Speaker 1: we are today because it just powers ups and piles up,
45:52
Speaker 1: powers up, and to pretend that it doesn't that's what
45:54
Speaker 1: I call psychosis, the psychosis of whiteness, that says, rosy
45:58
Speaker 1: eye view of the world where you can ignore what's happened,
46:01
Speaker 1: is directly ignore the implications which are very clear today.
46:04
Speaker 1: And I've got question very so I'm my argument is
46:07
Speaker 1: very clear. White supremacy is what defies the global economy
46:10
Speaker 1: has done since this is very clear argument. If you
46:12
Speaker 1: look at a map of global inequality today GDP per capita,
46:16
Speaker 1: it will show you that the poorest part of the
46:18
Speaker 1: world is where black people is, so called Africa, the
46:21
Speaker 1: richest part of the world where white people is the West,
46:23
Speaker 1: and there's a hierarchy in between. So we literally have
46:26
Speaker 1: an economy in the mode of white supremacy, which is
46:29
Speaker 1: why we said how I understand the world? Tell me
46:31
Speaker 1: how that can be true? If it's not, before you do, can.
46:37
Speaker 4: Can I just explore this thing? Because you say the
46:39
Speaker 4: psychosis of white And look, I think you've made some
46:43
Speaker 4: interesting points about you know, slavery and what's old and
46:46
Speaker 4: you know, I actually said to you before we started
46:48
Speaker 4: that I think there's some really strong arguments on that
46:50
Speaker 4: point that I agree with to some extent. Well, when
46:53
Speaker 4: you start talking about whiteness, are you not including a
46:57
Speaker 4: hell of a lot of people who really had nothing
46:59
Speaker 4: to do with any of this, Like my ancestors are Russian,
47:03
Speaker 4: That's where I'm from. I happen to live in this country.
47:05
Speaker 4: But when you say psychosis wideness, now I'm part of
47:08
Speaker 4: this somehow do just so what I'm saying, is it not.
47:11
Speaker 2: A little bit a little bit not too broad?
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48:29
Speaker 1: Whiteness is about idea, not people, So there's not going
48:31
Speaker 1: about people. So I didn't say psychosis of white people.
48:33
Speaker 1: I said whiteness. Whiteness is a way of viewing the
48:37
Speaker 1: world which is completely irrational, deluted and distorted and leads
48:40
Speaker 1: to arguments like on the other side of the table,
48:42
Speaker 1: which all are black people with Asian people just slightly
48:45
Speaker 1: who engaged in anybody else? It's not bad in you individually.
48:48
Speaker 4: Wait, so whiteness has nothing to do with skin color, but.
48:50
Speaker 1: It's white whiteness, consular system and white supremacy. As I said,
48:53
Speaker 1: the world today is it? Can you explain why the
48:56
Speaker 1: poorest part of the world is black and the riches
48:57
Speaker 1: part of the world is white? And is there ery
48:59
Speaker 1: in between? Well? Isn't about? Isn't it a long?
49:02
Speaker 6: Maybe?
49:02
Speaker 2: Yertain? The poorest part of the world was African long
49:04
Speaker 2: before Europeans arrived. How do you explain that Africa?
49:08
Speaker 1: Africa was aad and before you had in.
49:11
Speaker 2: The Middle Ages, you had the Mali Empire and you know,
49:14
Speaker 2: and Timbuktu and all of that. Yeah, but they didn't
49:17
Speaker 2: develop beyond that. Why is that? Why?
49:19
Speaker 1: Slavery?
49:20
Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry for you heaven's sake, we're talking about
49:23
Speaker 2: West African slavery that didn't go into Central Africa. Yeah right, yeah,
49:30
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, And this is the key points. Right Africa
49:32
Speaker 2: is thousands of years old. Europeans didn't arrive there to
49:37
Speaker 2: settle and colonize until that. The scramble for Africa was
49:40
Speaker 2: when it really took place in eighteen eighty five, as
49:43
Speaker 2: late as eighteen forty one. You had a few trading
49:45
Speaker 2: outposts on because yes, there was a slave tribe. We're
49:47
Speaker 2: talking about when when Europeans went inland, because people inland
49:52
Speaker 2: in Africa didn't have any knowledge or experience of what
49:54
Speaker 2: was happening on the on the coast of the slave markets. Right,
49:59
Speaker 2: Africa is huge. They got their states in West Africa,
50:01
Speaker 2: they weren't getting their slaves from from Central Africa. I'm
50:05
Speaker 2: talking about the sixteen hundreds.
50:07
Speaker 1: And I am giving you plenty of time.
50:11
Speaker 4: I know you're both passionate and I love it and
50:13
Speaker 4: it's great and I'm just ray for one say, I'm
50:16
Speaker 4: glad we're having this debate. I think it's great. I
50:18
Speaker 4: wanted to be informative for the audience as well, So
50:21
Speaker 4: it's better if you don't talk over each other. You
50:22
Speaker 4: will get all the time you need, both of you.
50:24
Speaker 2: In eighteen seventy one, only ten percent of Europe of
50:28
Speaker 2: Africa had been colonized. So why in eighteen seventy one
50:31
Speaker 2: Africa had thousands of years Why was there no equivalent
50:35
Speaker 2: of the cities of You know, this is a land
50:37
Speaker 2: mass larger than Europe, larger than India and China combined.
50:40
Speaker 2: Why wasn't there the economic development? Why was life expectancy
50:43
Speaker 2: still as it was? Why didn't you have any of
50:45
Speaker 2: the scientific advancement and elsewhere Africa had been left to
50:48
Speaker 2: its own devices, It didn't come up with that. The
50:50
Speaker 2: huge leap forwards for Africa in terms of life expectancy,
50:53
Speaker 2: in terms of the economy, in terms of science and medicine,
50:56
Speaker 2: happened when the Europeans were there, and the Europeans were
50:59
Speaker 2: not there for very long. People often think that this
51:00
Speaker 2: is centuries of involvement in Africa. We're talking about a
51:04
Speaker 2: period of around one hundred and fifty years ago was
51:06
Speaker 2: when colonizations started, and for most countries, colonization was less
51:10
Speaker 2: than a century. You know, it was from the eighteen
51:12
Speaker 2: eighties up to the nineteen fifties or nineteen seventies, such
51:15
Speaker 2: a short period of time. But during that period, what
51:18
Speaker 2: growth and development happened in Africa for example, Now this
51:21
Speaker 2: is really going to Annoya Hindi, but that nothing has
51:23
Speaker 2: done more to lift the world out of poverty than
51:26
Speaker 2: capitalism and colonialism. Those have been the two greatest forces
51:30
Speaker 2: for life expectancy, for living standards. As Stephen Pinker from
51:33
Speaker 2: Harvard University has said, that the life in pre state
51:37
Speaker 2: societies was incalculably more brutal and harsh than life today.
51:42
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we're talking about cannibalism, awful rituals
51:45
Speaker 2: taking place, and you needed structured societies to achieve that.
51:49
Speaker 2: That's been achieved. If you look at the successful states
51:52
Speaker 2: that achieved that, they were ones that usually had a
51:55
Speaker 2: British imperial heritage. So wherever you go in the world,
51:57
Speaker 2: of all the empires, those that had a British imperial
51:59
Speaker 2: heritage came out the best of the whole situation. And
52:02
Speaker 2: you talk about Jamaica, for example, Jamaicans disagree with you.
52:05
Speaker 2: And you know, a few years ago there was a
52:06
Speaker 2: poll of Jamaicans. Sixty percent of Jamaican said that they
52:09
Speaker 2: wish the British had never left. They said British rule
52:12
Speaker 2: was far better, it was far less corrupt, things work better,
52:15
Speaker 2: and they would prefer the British to be in power.
52:17
Speaker 2: And if you look and you were asking me about
52:19
Speaker 2: you said, I can't say any examples. If you look
52:21
Speaker 2: at the independent countries in the Caribbean, yes, a lot
52:24
Speaker 2: of them aren't doing very well economically. The countries in
52:27
Speaker 2: the Cribean that are doing very well are those which
52:29
Speaker 2: are dependencies of France, of Britain and of the United States.
52:33
Speaker 2: Puerto Rico, Guadalupe, Martinique around the same size as Puerto Rico,
52:37
Speaker 2: as Barbados, much more profitable. Why because they haven't been
52:42
Speaker 2: victims of the corruption and of the incompetent leadership, the
52:47
Speaker 2: substandard and unseerious politicians that you have there, who are
52:50
Speaker 2: often beating the drummer and looking for handouts rather than
52:52
Speaker 2: dealing with the country's problems as they should be dealt.
52:55
Speaker 4: With all the timely.
52:56
Speaker 2: One.
52:56
Speaker 1: I literally just explain this, which is why, this is
52:58
Speaker 1: why the Western ls psychostism did you give you give
53:00
Speaker 1: the argument, and.
53:03
Speaker 4: It's not going to make the argument. I want to
53:05
Speaker 4: be clear, it's not an I tell you, our audience
53:08
Speaker 4: is very nuanced and they're open to be persuaded. But
53:11
Speaker 4: you've got to make the argument.
53:13
Speaker 1: But I want to stress this is part of the argument,
53:15
Speaker 1: because part of what I'm trying to tell you is
53:16
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what we say and we talk about
53:18
Speaker 1: debate and that you want to come to it, it's
53:20
Speaker 1: not going to happen, right because we're just you two.
53:22
Speaker 4: Are never going to agree. That's why you're here. But
53:25
Speaker 4: but you, but hold on, hold on. You're coming at
53:28
Speaker 4: this from two very different perspectives. But the reason I
53:31
Speaker 4: brought you together is not because I thought you and
53:33
Speaker 4: Rathe would sit down around the table and eventually agree.
53:35
Speaker 4: That's never going to happen. The reason I brought you
53:37
Speaker 4: together is there's a million and a half people watching
53:40
Speaker 4: potentially right, and a lot of them haven't made their
53:43
Speaker 4: mind up about this issue at all. They don't know,
53:46
Speaker 4: as I don't know what they think. So you have
53:49
Speaker 4: an opportunity to persuade them. So the reason I say
53:52
Speaker 4: the word insult, maybe you don't mean it that way.
53:55
Speaker 4: But if you say to the person watching this, well
53:57
Speaker 4: you've got psychosis, it's not it's not that persuasive, do
54:01
Speaker 4: you know what I mean?
54:02
Speaker 1: I'm just making it plain, like I don't know how
54:03
Speaker 1: else to tell you, but to make it plain persuade me,
54:05
Speaker 1: like explain it to me. But look, as I said,
54:07
Speaker 1: the idea that so race starts up with this point
54:11
Speaker 1: which I already mentioned, right, So colonalism the reason that
54:14
Speaker 1: Europe doesn't colonize afric because it can't because I don't
54:16
Speaker 1: want to. It's not possible, it doesn't have.
54:18
Speaker 4: The But his argument is Africa was poor for the Europe.
54:23
Speaker 1: Where it is not simply not true when Europe. When
54:25
Speaker 1: Europe comes, when Europe turns to Africa, Africa is ahead.
54:29
Speaker 1: There are more books in Timbuk two one library in
54:31
Speaker 1: Timbuk to you than there are in the whole of Europe.
54:33
Speaker 1: This is one of the biggest lies of history Europe.
54:34
Speaker 1: Africa is not behind. Europe can't actually colonize afric because
54:38
Speaker 1: it doesn't have the capability to do it. It's not possible.
54:40
Speaker 4: Right Is that just one example? What are you saying
54:42
Speaker 4: the whole content more developed?
54:44
Speaker 1: I mean, not every part of the continent. But if
54:46
Speaker 1: you're gonna say Africa as a whole is more than.
54:47
Speaker 4: We're quite ignorant about African history. I would say so
54:50
Speaker 4: can you tell us more about that.
54:51
Speaker 1: Generally you're talking about technologically in terms of reading, it's
54:57
Speaker 1: just the head.
54:57
Speaker 6: There's no technologically technologically like when the more so the
55:01
Speaker 6: more the Moors go into the Moors go into Europe
55:03
Speaker 6: from from North Africa and bring in things like bringing
55:08
Speaker 6: many things toilet paper, bringing things like hygiene, bringing things
55:10
Speaker 6: like dinner plates, bring you can talk.
55:12
Speaker 1: There's there's a and you know this is true. I'm
55:14
Speaker 1: not making this up. There's a whole influence on European
55:16
Speaker 1: culture from the Moors. When the Moors that defeated in
55:18
Speaker 1: fourteen ninety one forty ninety two, that opens up Europe
55:21
Speaker 1: and common to Africa, but Africa as a whole. It's
55:23
Speaker 1: just not they're not able to.
55:24
Speaker 4: Comes the most. I'm not I'm not a historian, so
55:27
Speaker 4: I don't know. So again, educate me. Are the most
55:29
Speaker 4: North Africans or are they coming from Sub Saharan Africa.
55:32
Speaker 1: This is North Africa, This is the North African, North African,
55:36
Speaker 1: so they also have you have you mentioned the Empire Mali?
55:39
Speaker 1: You have Zimbabwe has development overall, but Africa.
55:42
Speaker 4: The Moors are part of the Islamic world, right, the
55:44
Speaker 4: North Africans part.
55:45
Speaker 1: They also include Africa's all right, we agree on this.
55:48
Speaker 2: It's not just in Africa because this is too big.
55:51
Speaker 2: It's why I'm a slave trade.
55:52
Speaker 4: So when I think what people here, or at least
55:56
Speaker 4: what I hear, may be wrong. When you say Africa
55:58
Speaker 4: was more advanced, I'm trying to think.
56:01
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not just talking about the more The
56:02
Speaker 1: Mores on one part, is not the most empire, Zimbabwe,
56:08
Speaker 1: the Araba, There's many, there's you can go for. The
56:10
Speaker 1: continent is not like some backwards We're not doing anything
56:13
Speaker 1: on it.
56:13
Speaker 4: So when you say the more advanced you talked about,
56:15
Speaker 4: you know, the Mores brought certain things which, by the way,
56:18
Speaker 4: like a lot of people don't know, I actually studied
56:19
Speaker 4: Islamic history at university, so I know a lot of
56:22
Speaker 4: the things that they brought and preserved sometimes from the
56:26
Speaker 4: ancient world, et cetera. But in terms of the Sub
56:28
Speaker 4: Saharan Africa, what would you say were their key scientific
56:32
Speaker 4: developments and other things that we would say, well, that
56:35
Speaker 4: was more advanced than the Europeans.
56:37
Speaker 1: Of that, it's actually interested in that. When there's actually
56:40
Speaker 1: reports that when Columbus was sailing to America, they were
56:43
Speaker 1: Africans sailing back, not More's West African A lot of
56:46
Speaker 1: evidence because West Africans made it to America's long before
56:49
Speaker 1: thousand years before the Old met heads. There was a
56:52
Speaker 1: person who did recearch a com in New Age of Empires,
56:54
Speaker 1: the book where I did the research on this, but
56:56
Speaker 1: she actually found that there were drugs in some of
56:59
Speaker 1: the West freaking sorry, there were drugs in the Latin
57:03
Speaker 1: American tombs which came from wast ever thousand thousand years ago.
57:08
Speaker 4: So this is simply so they had sailing technology, they.
57:10
Speaker 1: Could sail, they had the wheel, they could do, there
57:12
Speaker 1: was there was technology, there was iron, etcetera. This remember
57:14
Speaker 1: who were the dark ages in Europe? Like Europe isn'ts'
57:16
Speaker 1: particlar advanced at all at this point. So the reason
57:19
Speaker 1: why rapist correct forties like Europe goes to Africa really
57:22
Speaker 1: fourteen ninety two, fifteenth centuries in the century Europe. The
57:25
Speaker 1: reason they're not colonizing isn't because they don't want to colonize,
57:28
Speaker 1: because they can't. You mentioned it earlier, they who why
57:31
Speaker 1: was it that there was Africans who had who did
57:33
Speaker 1: the actual capture because Europeans couldn't get him.
57:37
Speaker 2: It was a disease.
57:39
Speaker 1: It wasn't just these, it was revolt. It was rebellion.
57:41
Speaker 1: It was the fact that they had to They had
57:43
Speaker 1: the so they had this disease. Does not explain why
57:45
Speaker 1: you have these massive castles were heavily fortified, and even
57:49
Speaker 1: this like a Miena castle and guard wasna. They even
57:52
Speaker 1: abandoned those and have to go. At some point they
57:54
Speaker 1: start just having boats where the boats are offshore because
57:56
Speaker 1: they so much resistance, they just start putting people on
57:58
Speaker 1: the boats. So the there's a reason why Europe.
58:01
Speaker 2: They didn't need the slave markets were there, so let.
58:07
Speaker 1: Me let me let slavery. Once Europeans started to comment
58:12
Speaker 1: into his slave and a big part of this whole
58:13
Speaker 1: thing as well, when we say Africans, that is a
58:16
Speaker 1: European idea at the time. At the time, Africans did
58:19
Speaker 1: not see themselves as Africans. There was not the case.
58:21
Speaker 1: There was different ethnicities, and what Europe did very well
58:24
Speaker 1: was they played off these differentenities against each other. So
58:26
Speaker 1: it wasn't the case that the Eurba was selling the Araba.
58:29
Speaker 1: The Araba might have a war with the Igbo. And
58:30
Speaker 1: then when they captured the egbod sells it. So the
58:32
Speaker 1: idea of Africans setting up Africans again, it's not really true.
58:34
Speaker 1: This is different.
58:36
Speaker 4: That's what this one group of Africans selling We now.
58:40
Speaker 1: Think of Africans, and they now think of Africans certainly
58:41
Speaker 1: at the time that if they were, if there was
58:43
Speaker 1: that we are all African identity, slavery probably doesn't happen
58:46
Speaker 1: because again Europe's not powerful enough. So what happens is
58:49
Speaker 1: slavery starts, it becomes lucrative, it starts that it slowly
58:52
Speaker 1: starts to become the dominant. It is the dominant force
58:54
Speaker 1: on the African continent. And yes, the enslaves are taken
58:56
Speaker 1: from the interior. There are marches. Congo is one of
58:59
Speaker 1: the main place is where the slave go from to Brazil.
59:02
Speaker 1: That's firmly in the middle. So the whole continent starts
59:04
Speaker 1: to change, which is why you have the rise of
59:06
Speaker 1: the shanty the Dahome who you mentioned, the groups that says,
59:09
Speaker 1: you know, we will do this, will do the trading
59:11
Speaker 1: on behalf of will work. They have and they have
59:13
Speaker 1: the English flag.
59:14
Speaker 4: Some of these you're saying create supply.
59:16
Speaker 1: Yes, there's ald because it was lucratid right, and so
59:18
Speaker 1: there were people who took advantage and this completely and
59:21
Speaker 1: if you look at all of the the ethnic groups
59:23
Speaker 1: have become dominant, those are the ones that are enslaving,
59:25
Speaker 1: and they're doing it oftentimes the English flag literally for
59:28
Speaker 1: even the English lag and Slatin people. So there's a
59:30
Speaker 1: whole period from let's say fifteen hundred up to colonization
59:34
Speaker 1: where Africa's being drained the resources. Slavery is destroying things,
59:37
Speaker 1: people are moving away from it, they're trying to get
59:39
Speaker 1: away from the coast. The whole economy gets shaped completely
59:42
Speaker 1: differently shaped. So we have no idea what happens because
59:44
Speaker 1: slavery becomes a dominant thing on the continent, which is
59:46
Speaker 1: why there's no development. Slavery literally stops African development to
59:49
Speaker 1: the point at which then in the nineteenth century, places
59:52
Speaker 1: like Nigeria are able to they can be colonized. And
59:55
Speaker 1: and again this is this is the idea that places
59:57
Speaker 1: with British heritage are the ones who do the best.
1:00:00
Speaker 1: Nigeria is essentially a failed state. Explain it. Nigeria had British,
1:00:04
Speaker 1: the British, British, British, it's still very British educator system
1:00:06
Speaker 1: and it's one of the essentially a fales state to day.
1:00:08
Speaker 1: So it's stainly not the case that having British the.
1:00:11
Speaker 2: Most reasons of the world places where the British heritage
1:00:14
Speaker 2: are better. South Africa was the golden golden jewel in
1:00:17
Speaker 2: Africa was the great I know, deeply, I'm sorry. I'm
1:00:21
Speaker 2: talking about when independence came, not talking about what's happened.
1:00:24
Speaker 2: You can't blame us now for the bad corruption and
1:00:27
Speaker 2: bad government of those places. But if you compare the
1:00:29
Speaker 2: African states that were British to those that were French
1:00:31
Speaker 2: or also but let's get back to your point. Look,
1:00:33
Speaker 2: I've already said and you said that the Mali Empire,
1:00:35
Speaker 2: the Songay Empire that were great. But don't make it
1:00:38
Speaker 2: out as if you know there was a great Wakanda
1:00:39
Speaker 2: in Africa at this time. I'm sorry. These are few
1:00:41
Speaker 2: and far between places the history of and the reason
1:00:46
Speaker 2: for their decline was because of internal issues that they had.
1:00:49
Speaker 2: They were warring with each other, they were incompetently led.
1:00:52
Speaker 2: That's why you had the collapse of Timbuktu and of
1:00:55
Speaker 2: the Mali Empa, for example. And why was it, I mean,
1:00:57
Speaker 2: you know, the fact is Africa was not developed. Why
1:01:00
Speaker 2: did Africa not have something equivalent to the Enlightenment that
1:01:04
Speaker 2: we saw and to the to the Reformation that we
1:01:06
Speaker 2: saw in the thirteenth to the seventeenth century in Italy
1:01:09
Speaker 2: and Europe, the great cultural awakening of the Reformation. Why
1:01:12
Speaker 2: didn't they have an equivalent to the Gupta Empire in India?
1:01:15
Speaker 2: We saw it, We saw a great, great flourishing of
1:01:18
Speaker 2: arts and culture and science. Why was there no equivalent
1:01:20
Speaker 2: to the Tang dynasty in China? The Great period there?
1:01:23
Speaker 2: This was a time when there was no European entry
1:01:26
Speaker 2: into Africa. This was a time when Africa was on
1:01:29
Speaker 2: its own, able to do whatever it wanted to. It
1:01:31
Speaker 2: had the opportunity to develop its own culture. You know,
1:01:34
Speaker 2: eighty percent of African languages don't have a written alphabet.
1:01:37
Speaker 2: Is very difficult. Therefore, to create a civilized society when
1:01:40
Speaker 2: you don't have those necessary precursors for civilizations. Those are
1:01:44
Speaker 2: the things, of course, which you don't want to address.
1:01:46
Speaker 2: And you know, it's very it's very easy to just
1:01:48
Speaker 2: suggest that Africa was somehow more more developed. I'm sorry,
1:01:52
Speaker 2: the point was, you know, well, he did say the
1:01:55
Speaker 2: history of was born in Europe, Asia, India, China and
1:01:59
Speaker 2: the Middle were much more advanced than Europe in the
1:02:01
Speaker 2: Dark Ages and elsewhere. Absolutely, what happened the great genius
1:02:04
Speaker 2: of the West is what happened from the sixteen hundreds
1:02:07
Speaker 2: onwards when we adopted the scientific method, and when, as
1:02:10
Speaker 2: I said, the Western mind fundamentally views the world differently.
1:02:13
Speaker 2: For example, you know outside of the West, outside of
1:02:16
Speaker 2: the West were they're much better at facial recognition because
1:02:19
Speaker 2: they use both hemispheres of the brain. The Western mind
1:02:21
Speaker 2: only uses the right hemisphere for facial recognition. There are
1:02:24
Speaker 2: very fundamentally different ways in which.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: This Eugenius no place white, say, not the worst. This
1:02:32
Speaker 1: listive plays West with white, because that's what you actually
1:02:34
Speaker 1: mean is real.
1:02:36
Speaker 2: Function definitely Western educated, industrialized, rich and democratic society. These
1:02:42
Speaker 2: were born and these were born in Europe, but they've
1:02:45
Speaker 2: now been processed in China and Japan and other industrialized
1:02:49
Speaker 2: parts of the origin of it was white. Not correct. Oh,
1:02:51
Speaker 2: you're very happy to celebrate the African origins of things.
1:02:53
Speaker 2: Somehow Europe can't celebrate or any of its own tas
1:02:57
Speaker 2: and accomplishments.
1:02:58
Speaker 1: I was, you can celebrate the achievements, but not pretend
1:03:00
Speaker 1: Western mind is different than.
1:03:14
Speaker 4: There are different groups of white people.
1:03:16
Speaker 1: Right.
1:03:16
Speaker 4: The only reason I'm jumping in is because you're talking
1:03:18
Speaker 4: about something that I personally can can weigh in on.
1:03:21
Speaker 4: So I would say, having come from Eastern Europe, there's
1:03:25
Speaker 4: a massive difference between the way Eastern Europeans think and
1:03:28
Speaker 4: the way the Western Europeans think, or the way Americans think.
1:03:31
Speaker 4: In fact, it is actually, as I've now discovered, I
1:03:33
Speaker 4: used to think like Americans and Britis people basically the same,
1:03:36
Speaker 4: speak the same language as you just come back from America.
1:03:38
Speaker 4: You know that's not true, right, Like they think about
1:03:41
Speaker 4: things very differently. So if cultures can be different within
1:03:45
Speaker 4: you know you're focused on ethnicity. Okay, let's just take
1:03:47
Speaker 4: that white people can have different cultures. Wouldn't it be
1:03:52
Speaker 4: therefore very logical to say people in Western Europe will
1:03:55
Speaker 4: have a different way of thinking about things than people
1:03:58
Speaker 4: and another continent, whether that's in China or in Africa.
1:04:00
Speaker 4: Isn't that a fair? Why do you say that eugenics?
1:04:02
Speaker 1: You seem you can certainly make the case that the
1:04:05
Speaker 1: different there's the different cultural of course of African beliefs,
1:04:08
Speaker 1: and to have completely different views about death et cetera.
1:04:11
Speaker 1: But that is a different state. The Western mind is different.
1:04:14
Speaker 1: Minds are the same. Cultures may be different, but our
1:04:15
Speaker 1: minds are not different. And actually, fundament to put it
1:04:21
Speaker 1: in the whole thing of eugenics, craneometry, there's there's a
1:04:23
Speaker 1: different kind of sight. You can measure the head, you
1:04:25
Speaker 1: can say.
1:04:25
Speaker 4: Which isn't said.
1:04:28
Speaker 2: This is not biological, so why is it?
1:04:30
Speaker 1: So explain explain why we what you're saying, this is
1:04:35
Speaker 1: your love me. The Western mind has a different hemisphere.
1:04:38
Speaker 1: Let them explain.
1:04:40
Speaker 2: Spatial awareness, visual, visual reasoning. There's all noticeable differences. So
1:04:44
Speaker 2: for example, right corners, we we are less good at
1:04:49
Speaker 2: looking at round corners than Africans because they don't have
1:04:52
Speaker 2: the right angle. So if you look in places now
1:04:55
Speaker 2: that have were built, when you grow up in in
1:04:57
Speaker 2: houses which are square, the eye naturally he sees right angles.
1:05:01
Speaker 2: When they see a flat surface, they don't see that.
1:05:03
Speaker 2: That's because of how we developed and grow up. This
1:05:05
Speaker 2: is about cultural anthropology. It's not about biology. This is
1:05:08
Speaker 2: about the situ the situation and the dynamics. I'm sorry,
1:05:11
Speaker 2: we dressed and as the West developed and as you
1:05:16
Speaker 2: had colonialism and you exported it, the Western concepts around
1:05:20
Speaker 2: the world. You saw the development of these same attributes elsewhere,
1:05:24
Speaker 2: which is why, of course you had in Japan and China.
1:05:26
Speaker 2: There are very few differences now with the originally European mind,
1:05:29
Speaker 2: which is why it's called it's called the Western mind.
1:05:31
Speaker 2: This is not something that's controversial. This is accepted by
1:05:34
Speaker 2: behavioral psychologists and cultural psychologists and anthropologists. It's very well, no,
1:05:39
Speaker 2: this is the.
1:05:39
Speaker 1: Science how many green psychology.
1:05:41
Speaker 2: So actually there's a lot of evidence, but the point
1:05:46
Speaker 2: is it was that moment, and this all goes back
1:05:48
Speaker 2: to the church's ban on cousin marriage a thousand years ago.
1:05:51
Speaker 2: This is where it all developed from. The Catholic Church,
1:05:54
Speaker 2: was then called the Western Church, banned marriage between certain
1:05:56
Speaker 2: degrees of consanguinity. That got rid of the of the kinship,
1:06:00
Speaker 2: which are which were prevalent all around the world. To
1:06:03
Speaker 2: this day, the majority of cultures in the world have
1:06:05
Speaker 2: large kinship based families with about forty fifty members. Whether
1:06:08
Speaker 2: you're a first, second, third, fourth cousin, you're treated equally
1:06:11
Speaker 2: as brothers and sisters. That was done away within Europe,
1:06:14
Speaker 2: and so suddenly you had the birth of the nuclear
1:06:16
Speaker 2: family and still minority family and nuclear families are a
1:06:20
Speaker 2: small minority of global families. And what you had then
1:06:22
Speaker 2: was you had you family units had to rely on
1:06:25
Speaker 2: other people for support. You got the birth of social trust.
1:06:28
Speaker 2: Social trust did not exist outside of the West at
1:06:31
Speaker 2: this time to anywhere near the same degree. When you
1:06:33
Speaker 2: had social trust, of course, you then were able to
1:06:36
Speaker 2: enter into contracts and you began to have rival organizations
1:06:39
Speaker 2: to families developing. You had charter towns, towns that you
1:06:43
Speaker 2: would sign an oath to help develop. You had universities,
1:06:46
Speaker 2: you had guilds, you had confraternities. These were uniquely European
1:06:50
Speaker 2: things that began to develop in the last thousand years.
1:06:53
Speaker 2: And then when you had these independent organizations, you then
1:06:55
Speaker 2: began to have cross pollination of ideas. They would talk
1:06:59
Speaker 2: and discuss that you'd have the birth of competition and
1:07:02
Speaker 2: that's what led to innovation. And social trust and competition
1:07:05
Speaker 2: are fundamental to innovation. And there's at this point that
1:07:08
Speaker 2: you see the development of a very different worldview, a
1:07:11
Speaker 2: very different outlook, and you can see it in all
1:07:13
Speaker 2: sorts of ways. So for example, if you look if
1:07:16
Speaker 2: you look at ways that we identify ourselves for the
1:07:20
Speaker 2: for Western people, and that includes now modern places in Asia.
1:07:24
Speaker 2: If I is a constant in who are you, You'd say,
1:07:26
Speaker 2: I'm a very very handsome stand up comedian.
1:07:31
Speaker 4: You're trying to get on my side.
1:07:33
Speaker 2: You know, I've got snazzy jackets, and you know I
1:07:35
Speaker 2: collect milk bottle tops or whatever. Right, But if you
1:07:38
Speaker 2: were to ask somebody in a tribe in rural Africa,
1:07:41
Speaker 2: they would say, well, I'm ex I'm the son of why,
1:07:43
Speaker 2: I'm the brother of so and so, I'm the father
1:07:45
Speaker 2: and so and so. And that's what the family and
1:07:47
Speaker 2: kinship that defines who you are as opposed to what
1:07:50
Speaker 2: happens in the West. Because in the West you had
1:07:51
Speaker 2: the birth of individualism, and that was the key difference.
1:07:54
Speaker 2: The notion of the individual is a Western, primarily anglospheric concept,
1:07:58
Speaker 2: which also Protestant helped create. And it was that notion
1:08:01
Speaker 2: of the individual and self impressed and the reliance on
1:08:05
Speaker 2: other people that you had innovation in individualism and competition
1:08:09
Speaker 2: that led to the uniqueness of the Western mind which
1:08:12
Speaker 2: wasn't replicated anywhere else till you had an exporting of colonialism.
1:08:15
Speaker 1: See the reason I'm getting for I don't even know
1:08:17
Speaker 1: now and now I'm just starting to be like, this
1:08:19
Speaker 1: is actually dangerous. But these are a set of dangerous ideas.
1:08:22
Speaker 1: So if you think about what justifies slavery in the
1:08:24
Speaker 1: first place, first you had there was a religious cussification.
1:08:27
Speaker 1: It was a very much apol Christian. If you're not Christian,
1:08:30
Speaker 1: you're heathen. You can do what you life. Right after
1:08:32
Speaker 1: that it becomes the if you're like the Enlightenment definition,
1:08:35
Speaker 1: the scientific definition, and actually what is not human beings?
1:08:37
Speaker 2: Right?
1:08:37
Speaker 1: What is actually like I'm more like an ape than
1:08:40
Speaker 1: I am a human. Therefore you can do X y Z. Again,
1:08:43
Speaker 1: I would point out this Enlightenment that we're so proud of,
1:08:45
Speaker 1: it was actually born in that idea that I'm not
1:08:47
Speaker 1: a human being. So maybe there's some very bad ideas
1:08:49
Speaker 1: in the Enlightenment. Anyway, it becomes that scientific justification. That's
1:08:52
Speaker 1: where you get phrenology from eugenics, which I'm saying why
1:08:55
Speaker 1: this is a eugenic idea. What happens after the Second
1:08:58
Speaker 1: World War is eugenics becomes a bad thing. We can't
1:08:59
Speaker 1: be eugenics normal.
1:09:00
Speaker 2: What do we do?
1:09:01
Speaker 1: We do cultural racism. So you're explaining the world because
1:09:04
Speaker 1: you're saying that the West essentially has a better culture,
1:09:06
Speaker 1: and Africa has a backwards culture, and this is why
1:09:08
Speaker 1: Africa's poor. That is a clear that is a you
1:09:11
Speaker 1: go from church, you go church, science culture. It's the
1:09:15
Speaker 1: same line. So when I'm saying it's eugenics, it's just
1:09:18
Speaker 1: eugenics dressed up in something else. Which you can do
1:09:20
Speaker 1: is some fancy tests and which are not And I
1:09:22
Speaker 1: promise you these things are not widely excepting in psychology.
1:09:25
Speaker 1: I have a degree in psychology. I know its literature.
1:09:27
Speaker 1: It is deeply controversial, and you'd ask your audience to
1:09:31
Speaker 1: think which. Look, this is it's a comforting idea, the
1:09:35
Speaker 1: thing that the poverty, that we have a world that
1:09:37
Speaker 1: kills a child every ten seconds because they haven't got
1:09:39
Speaker 1: access to food and water. Most of our children, all
1:09:41
Speaker 1: of those children are black and brown, racial capitalism. It's
1:09:43
Speaker 1: comforting to think it's because we have this great culture,
1:09:45
Speaker 1: isn't it wonderful? Et cetera, et cetera. But I'm giving
1:09:47
Speaker 1: you the actual alternative reality to this. There is a
1:09:50
Speaker 1: reason why Africa's development stops when slavery starts, because slavery
1:09:54
Speaker 1: starts the development. There is a reason why under colonialism,
1:09:57
Speaker 1: where where the col me is dictated to and to
1:10:01
Speaker 1: draw out resources. So when African countries get independence, the
1:10:04
Speaker 1: book I'd recommend everybody read is African Machin United by
1:10:08
Speaker 1: Kwame and Krumer. The first president of Ghana, who's Garan's
1:10:11
Speaker 1: actually one of the first countries nineteen sixty to get independence,
1:10:14
Speaker 1: says now, I run this country, but there's no hospitals,
1:10:17
Speaker 1: there's no schools, there's no roads, there's no factories. In fact,
1:10:19
Speaker 1: the whole of this economy is built. I'm taking all
1:10:22
Speaker 1: of our resources and process them in Europe and sending
1:10:24
Speaker 1: them back towards That is still the cases of well
1:10:26
Speaker 1: like Ghana, where chocolate companies take their resources, produce it outside,
1:10:29
Speaker 1: et cetera, cetera. So when you have this independence happens
1:10:32
Speaker 1: their countries they can't. How could a country that has
1:10:34
Speaker 1: no hospital, with no roads, no factories ever succeed. They can't.
1:10:37
Speaker 1: So what do they do? It falls into poverty, gets
1:10:39
Speaker 1: these loans, has more poverty, et cetera, et cetera. On
1:10:42
Speaker 1: top of that, one of the key feaces in their
1:10:43
Speaker 1: colonism is to install public governments places like Congo, even
1:10:46
Speaker 1: in Nigeri, even in in kroumer is Attstinte et cetera.
1:10:49
Speaker 1: And so when you're looking at African countries can't succeed.
1:10:52
Speaker 1: Of course they couldn't succeed. There's no possible way that
1:10:54
Speaker 1: could they could have succeeded, which is why they're still
1:10:56
Speaker 1: pulled today. And again, reparations is not just a bad slavery,
1:10:59
Speaker 1: it's that whole history. So I'm telling you this, The
1:11:02
Speaker 1: reason that you have this inequality today is very clearly
1:11:05
Speaker 1: largely down to Europe exploiting the West, exploiting the underdeveloped world,
1:11:09
Speaker 1: and it's continuing to do so. And you have a
1:11:11
Speaker 1: fairy tale life and frankly racist idea of over.
1:11:14
Speaker 4: Day pause birth to you, is it possible that there's
1:11:18
Speaker 4: some truth in what you're both saying, because, like I
1:11:21
Speaker 4: think it's undeniable that Western slavery and colonialism would have
1:11:27
Speaker 4: had a negative impact on Africa, but that doesn't mean
1:11:29
Speaker 4: that the cultures weren't necessarily the same. So could it
1:11:32
Speaker 4: be that you're both right? I mean great, Surely you
1:11:34
Speaker 4: wouldn't deny that colonialism and slavery was bad for Africa, would.
1:11:38
Speaker 2: You, Well, for people live at the time, it was bad. Absolutely,
1:11:42
Speaker 2: that's my point. Slavery and colonials were horrendous for people
1:11:45
Speaker 2: at the time, but now generation on, I'm sorry, the
1:11:48
Speaker 2: benefits of colonialism have helped to lift the world out
1:11:52
Speaker 2: of poverty, have increased life, have doubled life expectancy. The
1:11:55
Speaker 2: same thing in Australia. Life expectancy of Aborigines was forty
1:11:58
Speaker 2: years the thousandth thousands of years. Now it's almost doubled, right,
1:12:02
Speaker 2: So that those are the advantages. So, yes, slavery was
1:12:05
Speaker 2: horrendous for slaves, but for the descendants of slaves today
1:12:08
Speaker 2: living in Britain and the Caribbean slavery, they're not victims
1:12:11
Speaker 2: of slavery. They've actually benefited from the terrible hardship that
1:12:14
Speaker 2: their ancestors went through.
1:12:15
Speaker 4: But do you not think being occupied, having a foreign
1:12:20
Speaker 4: government that sought to use your country exclusively for a
1:12:23
Speaker 4: time benefit, which it did, And I'm not saying they
1:12:26
Speaker 4: didn't do certain things. I'm sure they brought schools in
1:12:28
Speaker 4: and whatever, But nonetheless they did that so they had
1:12:31
Speaker 4: a more educated population to do the things that they
1:12:33
Speaker 4: will needed done. Right, don't you think that, you know,
1:12:36
Speaker 4: one hundred years of that would leave a legacy that
1:12:39
Speaker 4: was detrimental.
1:12:42
Speaker 2: Detriment in what way? Yes, Look, the point was the
1:12:45
Speaker 2: pre state societies were far more brutal. So yes, I'm
1:12:49
Speaker 2: not saying that these were wonderful places necessary to live,
1:12:51
Speaker 2: but you know, racism was abhorrent at that time. Look,
1:12:54
Speaker 2: Britain is now the world's third least racist country, but
1:12:56
Speaker 2: back in the nineteenth century, of course everyone did believe
1:12:59
Speaker 2: in racial higher is. Britain was very racist in the
1:13:01
Speaker 2: start of the twentieth century as well. No one is
1:13:04
Speaker 2: denying that. No one is denying the autrocities. My father
1:13:06
Speaker 2: was born in Kenya, along with most all his family.
1:13:09
Speaker 2: What happened to Mauma was terrible, and everything else and
1:13:13
Speaker 2: the Cocuu so forth. But the point was terrible compared
1:13:17
Speaker 2: to what the conditions that were there before. When you
1:13:19
Speaker 2: had terrible violence of course between rival tribes, you had warfare,
1:13:24
Speaker 2: you had malnutrition, you had poor water, you had disease.
1:13:28
Speaker 2: People's life expectancies were so short. You compare that to
1:13:31
Speaker 2: what happened afterwards. Clearly a huge improvement with the benefit
1:13:34
Speaker 2: of industrialization and development, and of course once independence came,
1:13:40
Speaker 2: they were given an inheritance, they had the necessary conditions
1:13:43
Speaker 2: to thrive. I mean, it's not true in the nineteen
1:13:46
Speaker 2: fifties and sixties was, for example, in the Caribbean, that
1:13:48
Speaker 2: was a key era for the development of the Caribbean.
1:13:51
Speaker 2: You know, in Barbados there's only one main hospital that
1:13:54
Speaker 2: was built by the British, one main university that was
1:13:57
Speaker 2: built by the British. Things haven't developed beyond them actually
1:14:00
Speaker 2: in Barbados because of course there's been economic mismanagement and corruption.
1:14:04
Speaker 2: And as I've said to you before, the countries and
1:14:06
Speaker 2: the Cribbean that are still Crown dependencies are the ones
1:14:09
Speaker 2: that are thriving. Six epsent of Jamaicans understand that, and
1:14:11
Speaker 2: they would prefer Britain never to have left.
1:14:16
Speaker 1: Specifically, as I said, this is what this is what
1:14:19
Speaker 1: we called neo colonism. So when Jamaica becomes independent, and
1:14:22
Speaker 1: actually Jamaica are the reason Jamaica becomes independent is to
1:14:25
Speaker 1: stop Jamaicans migrating to Britain. That is why they major
1:14:27
Speaker 1: maker independent, not because some great great moral thing is
1:14:30
Speaker 1: they want to stop people coming in. It largely works.
1:14:32
Speaker 1: But after Jamaica becomes independent, it's this is the problem
1:14:34
Speaker 1: with independence. It's independence in theory, but the economics of
1:14:37
Speaker 1: Jamaica's staying the same. So the same people who owned
1:14:39
Speaker 1: everything in Jamaica still own it now, so the money
1:14:42
Speaker 1: is still being taken out, still being withdrawn, which is
1:14:44
Speaker 1: why obviously they can't succeed. Jamaica's economy is really collapsing
1:14:47
Speaker 1: and hasn't and doesn't really show any signe of getting
1:14:49
Speaker 1: much better. And so yes, if you ask your average
1:14:51
Speaker 1: Jamaica was it better under the British, they might go, yeah,
1:14:54
Speaker 1: it was, it was a bit better. But that's because
1:14:56
Speaker 1: they're presented with these neoklonism which is even worse. But
1:14:59
Speaker 1: the cause of it is the same, so I have
1:15:01
Speaker 1: to address it. So for example, no in Jamaica apparent
1:15:03
Speaker 1: that I know Jamaica World. I'm from Jamaica. Tourism is
1:15:06
Speaker 1: the main industry, right, Seventy percent of the money from
1:15:09
Speaker 1: tourism goes straight out. There's the North Shore with my
1:15:11
Speaker 1: family in Jamaica, most of it literally there's like no
1:15:14
Speaker 1: public beaches, but like little slither of public beaches because
1:15:16
Speaker 1: most his own by foreign companies. So the thing is
1:15:18
Speaker 1: supposed to help us, it doesn't help us. This drains
1:15:20
Speaker 1: the money straight out. That's the problem with some of
1:15:22
Speaker 1: Jamaica is not actually independent. It's theoretically independent, but economically
1:15:25
Speaker 1: Jamaica's economy is still completely being rinsed by the West,
1:15:28
Speaker 1: and not just now. It's not just actually Europe starts
1:15:30
Speaker 1: or China, Indias get involded, cetera, et cetera. So Jamaica's
1:15:33
Speaker 1: economy can't work. And so the people there might say, oh, yeah,
1:15:36
Speaker 1: we look, we want it.
1:15:36
Speaker 2: It was better then, but that's not proofan government has
1:15:41
Speaker 2: no agency in any of this. Ina. This is the
1:15:46
Speaker 2: problem here that you have. That's why people preferred things
1:15:48
Speaker 2: when they were run by the British. In Barbados, the
1:15:51
Speaker 2: Order to General in Barbados has said that he can't
1:15:54
Speaker 2: actually get proper accounts for state owned industries and enterprises.
1:15:59
Speaker 2: Can you imagine this Order to General cannot get accounts
1:16:02
Speaker 2: on state industries in Barbados. That's the level of corruption
1:16:05
Speaker 2: and dysfunction that is created by having people in power
1:16:08
Speaker 2: who simply don't deserve to be there. And you can't
1:16:11
Speaker 2: keep blaming everything on what happened post independence. It's now
1:16:14
Speaker 2: been fifty sixty seventy years of independence. That's not the.
1:16:19
Speaker 1: Question because the problem, the problem that you stated, what
1:16:22
Speaker 1: was one of the key things that Britain needed was
1:16:24
Speaker 1: financial stability and the former colonies simply don't have it
1:16:26
Speaker 1: because they can't have it because No, Britain did not
1:16:29
Speaker 1: leave the colonies in a in a state where they
1:16:31
Speaker 1: could govern. They did not. They did not. This is
1:16:33
Speaker 1: les effectually untrue. They left the colonies in states with
1:16:35
Speaker 1: roads that went to the airport, with one maybe one hospital,
1:16:38
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of schools. They did not leave them
1:16:40
Speaker 1: in places where they could succeed, which is why most
1:16:42
Speaker 1: of the former colony, almost all of them fall into
1:16:44
Speaker 1: what we call third world ims et cetera, et cetera,
1:16:46
Speaker 1: which is just a new form of colonies. That's the truth,
1:16:48
Speaker 1: that's unfundamentally the truth.
1:16:50
Speaker 2: More so, to prepare its colonies for independence, and up
1:16:57
Speaker 2: to two thousand and nine, Britain investment the civil service
1:17:01
Speaker 2: was present, military structures, parliament, courts, judiciary, rule of.
1:17:05
Speaker 1: Law, interesting hospitals. No, they didn't, because the evidence is
1:17:09
Speaker 1: clear on this.
1:17:10
Speaker 2: Of course, they look at the number of schools, and
1:17:12
Speaker 2: I mean for even in after emancipation, so after after
1:17:16
Speaker 2: slavery was abolished in eighteen thirty three, enforced in eighteen
1:17:19
Speaker 2: forty four, for the next ten years from eighteen thirty
1:17:21
Speaker 2: five to eighteen forty four, with no obligation. Britain gave
1:17:25
Speaker 2: grants to the Caribbean for schools, for churches and for
1:17:29
Speaker 2: hospitals and so forth, some equivalent to a billion pounds today.
1:17:32
Speaker 1: Right, Sorry, can we say no obligation? This is again
1:17:34
Speaker 1: a massive problem we think about Britain did Jamaica was
1:17:37
Speaker 1: a colony of Britain. It had an obligation when my
1:17:39
Speaker 1: family when my dad came from in nineteen sixty to
1:17:41
Speaker 1: hear he came in second. They came with a passport,
1:17:44
Speaker 1: he said. In Jamaica it had every obligation because it
1:17:47
Speaker 1: owned the blaze.
1:17:48
Speaker 4: The idea was it I think, I think you're I
1:17:51
Speaker 4: think what right was saying is the money was given
1:17:54
Speaker 4: and there was no requirement to repay or to do anything.
1:17:57
Speaker 1: No, no, no, my point it was part of the nation.
1:17:59
Speaker 1: So of course there's there's no difference between between Britain
1:18:02
Speaker 1: funding education in Jamaica and Britain funding education in.
1:18:06
Speaker 2: Benefits because it's a member of the Commonwealth. In Canada, Australian,
1:18:09
Speaker 2: New Zealand and the UK given an inordinate amount of
1:18:12
Speaker 2: its foreign aid to perform a British colleages and the Commonwealth. Right,
1:18:16
Speaker 2: so you know, as I said, two billion ups to
1:18:18
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine. Currently is four hundred and thirty
1:18:19
Speaker 2: million pounds of British money is in development there, and
1:18:23
Speaker 2: that's because of course of the ties.
1:18:25
Speaker 4: Right right, right right, We're back in the territory. I
1:18:28
Speaker 4: want to wrap it up a little bit, but kind
1:18:30
Speaker 4: of can I ask you one thing before we wrap up?
1:18:33
Speaker 4: Because you talked a lot about this kind of the
1:18:35
Speaker 4: psychology and whiteness and whatever. Do you think there was
1:18:38
Speaker 4: something very particular about Western Europeans that made them do
1:18:43
Speaker 4: the slave trade, that made them behave in the ways
1:18:46
Speaker 4: that they did.
1:18:48
Speaker 1: That's a good question. You can talk about different mind. Yeah,
1:18:51
Speaker 1: maybe maybe they're do you have a different I would say.
1:18:58
Speaker 4: Different now, But I'm asking you, well, why do you
1:19:00
Speaker 4: think it happened the way? Because I guess the argument
1:19:02
Speaker 4: that I'm thinking about is I mean, I personally have
1:19:06
Speaker 4: to say, I don't know enough about it to really
1:19:08
Speaker 4: make a judgment. But I'm surprised to hear you say
1:19:10
Speaker 4: Africa was more developed. I'd always assumed that the reason
1:19:13
Speaker 4: the Europeans did what they did probably wasn't because they
1:19:16
Speaker 4: had some different special mind in that way, but actually
1:19:18
Speaker 4: it was because they just had the technology they were
1:19:21
Speaker 4: more powerful, they were wealthier, so they could do this
1:19:24
Speaker 4: in a way that actually everyone would have done if
1:19:27
Speaker 4: they were in a position to. So I guess what
1:19:29
Speaker 4: I'm getting at is, would Africans have colonized Western Europe
1:19:33
Speaker 4: if the if the shoe was on the other foot,
1:19:35
Speaker 4: or do you think there's something special about white Europeans
1:19:38
Speaker 4: that made them behave in that way?
1:19:39
Speaker 1: I see. So I'm so tempting to give a different
1:19:41
Speaker 1: answer to this question, but I'm really not. I'm going
1:19:43
Speaker 1: to play nice, Okay. I think that when you when
1:19:46
Speaker 1: you look at it, this is why, this is why
1:19:49
Speaker 1: the West is When I said the West, when I
1:19:50
Speaker 1: say the West, it really doesn't mean going to the
1:19:52
Speaker 1: West Europe, going to the West and finding the Americans.
1:19:55
Speaker 1: The Americas are such an unlocked so many things. It's
1:19:58
Speaker 1: not a coincidence that America is richest part the world.
1:20:00
Speaker 1: It's like these that's the key that unlocks everything else.
1:20:03
Speaker 1: And I think you have to be honest and say, well,
1:20:06
Speaker 1: who's the ambassador to the first the guy Columbus, Chrisopher
1:20:09
Speaker 1: Columbus who goes over there is one of the most violent,
1:20:12
Speaker 1: insidious people in the history of hul life, right who from.
1:20:17
Speaker 1: And this is midpoint estimates, and this is all estimates,
1:20:19
Speaker 1: but the midpoint estimate of when he goes to what
1:20:22
Speaker 1: Hispaniola was now eighted do Medican public. The midpoint estimate
1:20:25
Speaker 1: is he goes there is eight million people. This is
1:20:27
Speaker 1: the midpoint. There might be lower, might be higher, I
1:20:28
Speaker 1: don't know, but the middle estimate, and that's forty ninety two.
1:20:31
Speaker 1: When he eventually leads in fifteen twelve, it's estimated that
1:20:34
Speaker 1: there are twenty thousand people left. There's a huge decimation
1:20:37
Speaker 1: of life when Europeans go to because in the largest disease.
1:20:40
Speaker 1: But it's not just disease, it's Manny in Dougs is
1:20:41
Speaker 1: working people to death. The genocide in the America's generally
1:20:45
Speaker 1: is the largest genocide in human history, up to sixty
1:20:47
Speaker 1: five million people. And this is I've read this and
1:20:50
Speaker 1: I was shot. Apparently the world actually cools because so
1:20:54
Speaker 1: many people died, they were producing less greenest gaser missions
1:20:57
Speaker 1: and actually reduced the temperature of the earth. So if
1:20:59
Speaker 1: you think about the founding, the founding place, so the
1:21:03
Speaker 1: west is the Americans, and the founding the west of
1:21:06
Speaker 1: Covid Americans was the large genicie human history. A violence
1:21:10
Speaker 1: and disregard for life. And then where did they go
1:21:12
Speaker 1: to find the labor? After they worked to diff the natives?
1:21:15
Speaker 1: They go, who got this African slaves going? Let's go
1:21:17
Speaker 1: on enslave Africans, turn them into non humans. Those that
1:21:20
Speaker 1: you if you used to say, yep, that barbarity, the
1:21:22
Speaker 1: anti blattiners, that racism, white supremacy. That's the difference, and
1:21:26
Speaker 1: that's what allows everything else to do.
1:21:27
Speaker 4: So what I'm asking though, is do you think that
1:21:30
Speaker 4: if West Africans, let's say they had the ships, they
1:21:35
Speaker 4: had the muskets, they had the gunpowder, they had the
1:21:38
Speaker 4: various different types of technology that enabled Western Europeans to
1:21:42
Speaker 4: go over to the Americans and do what you're talking about, right?
1:21:45
Speaker 4: Do you think that if the West African tribes, perhaps
1:21:49
Speaker 4: some of those more aggressive ones that enslaved other Africans,
1:21:53
Speaker 4: if they had all that technology and they went over
1:21:55
Speaker 4: to the Americas, do you think they would have behaved
1:22:00
Speaker 4: differently because of their different culture and background or do
1:22:03
Speaker 4: you think they would have done the same thing.
1:22:05
Speaker 1: I think evidence says that it didn't. Did they have
1:22:07
Speaker 1: different Like I said, there's evidence that Africans were in
1:22:10
Speaker 1: the Americans in thousands, at least a thousand years before Europeans.
1:22:13
Speaker 1: So I think certainly the case would be that, yes,
1:22:15
Speaker 1: there is.
1:22:17
Speaker 4: Why do you think that is?
1:22:20
Speaker 1: It's Look, I'm not going to sit and re speculate
1:22:22
Speaker 1: it's because they're something better about Africans and African morality.
1:22:25
Speaker 1: I don't.
1:22:26
Speaker 4: Look, there's but just like I mean, you you it's
1:22:29
Speaker 4: just the way that when you talk about whiteness, it's
1:22:33
Speaker 4: implied the white the way that white people think or white.
1:22:36
Speaker 1: So I want, I want to be clear. I am
1:22:39
Speaker 1: not very easy. It was very easy to be to say, here,
1:22:42
Speaker 1: who's my favorite person? Backobicks right, say, look, it's the
1:22:44
Speaker 1: devilish nature of the white man. It shows, and people
1:22:46
Speaker 1: say that all the time. I'm actually saying the whiteness.
1:22:49
Speaker 2: Is not a bad You don't agree with that, I don't.
1:22:51
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think white people the devils. No,
1:22:53
Speaker 1: I don't. I think that the we can debate what
1:22:57
Speaker 1: could have happened, what may have happened white was, but
1:22:58
Speaker 1: the reality is that it was that carnage, that racial
1:23:03
Speaker 1: expectation that was necessary to create the society we had,
1:23:06
Speaker 1: and that so that's that's why we have I'm not challenging.
1:23:08
Speaker 2: I don't know.
1:23:09
Speaker 1: I can't tell you why, but I can tell you
1:23:10
Speaker 1: that is.
1:23:11
Speaker 4: But what I'm asking you to think about for the
1:23:14
Speaker 4: purposes of this guy, I think is really important to
1:23:16
Speaker 4: this discussion, right, is you talk about whiteness. It's kind
1:23:21
Speaker 4: of hard to extricate that from white people. It's difficult
1:23:25
Speaker 4: for most people at least listen to this, right, And
1:23:27
Speaker 4: it's sort of implied within that that the way whiteness
1:23:30
Speaker 4: operates is worse than the way other things operate. Right,
1:23:33
Speaker 4: And what I'm asking you is, do you think if
1:23:35
Speaker 4: Africans had the same ability to dominate the native population
1:23:39
Speaker 4: of the Americas, would they have behaved the same or different?
1:23:43
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I'll be clear honest, No, I think when
1:23:45
Speaker 1: you when I say whiteness is an idea and it's
1:23:47
Speaker 1: that is a fact. That is a that is an
1:23:49
Speaker 1: idea that has come from Western Europe. Yeah, that is
1:23:51
Speaker 1: an idea that is used to dominate the world. That
1:23:54
Speaker 1: was a necessary feature of doing it because Africans went
1:23:56
Speaker 1: to the knew it and didn't do this.
1:23:58
Speaker 4: So yes, there is something they didn't have this same technology.
1:24:02
Speaker 1: Muskets and when Europeans came in for they weren't massively
1:24:07
Speaker 1: more technology events. There's a reason why the Portuguese don't
1:24:11
Speaker 1: have slave plantations in Africa. They can't. They can't literally
1:24:15
Speaker 1: can't do it. So it's not the case that Europe's
1:24:17
Speaker 1: first Europe just comes into Africa able to control. It's
1:24:21
Speaker 1: not the case. It takes.
1:24:22
Speaker 2: It takes a long time out on that. If they
1:24:27
Speaker 2: had the technology, of course they would have been the same.
1:24:30
Speaker 2: I mean this idea that you didn't have terrible bloodshed
1:24:33
Speaker 2: happening and prejudice and the same sort of issues of
1:24:36
Speaker 2: racism happening within Africa. I mean, of course you did.
1:24:39
Speaker 2: If you know, if you look in uh in the
1:24:42
Speaker 2: Central Africa, you had the the Bantu were persecuting the
1:24:45
Speaker 2: pygmies and killing them. If you look in Ethiopia, you
1:24:49
Speaker 2: had the Bantues themselves with the victims and being persecuted.
1:24:52
Speaker 2: In Sonalia, the Abyssinians were murdering and hunting the shankelloh
1:24:56
Speaker 2: A Ni Logic valley people. And this is not about
1:24:59
Speaker 2: white supremacist I mean when African slaves were taken to
1:25:02
Speaker 2: to Islam, to the Arab world, they were regarded as
1:25:06
Speaker 2: the lowest social stratum, was the prejudices. There same thing
1:25:09
Speaker 2: with the Chinese and the Tang dynasty, who of course
1:25:12
Speaker 2: regarded African staves as the kunluna, were frightened by them.
1:25:15
Speaker 2: So this is the idea that something is unique to
1:25:17
Speaker 2: the West and unique to white people is simply not true.
1:25:20
Speaker 2: What is interesting, of course, is the exploration ethic of Europeans,
1:25:24
Speaker 2: which you don't find. Again, China had a massive fleet.
1:25:27
Speaker 2: Its ships were far better than European ships. It never discovered,
1:25:31
Speaker 2: it never discovered the Americas. You don't see the exploration
1:25:34
Speaker 2: that you saw within Europe again because of the distinction
1:25:37
Speaker 2: of the Western mine, and that whole concept of exploring
1:25:40
Speaker 2: and developing was very much fundamentally a European concept. You know,
1:25:43
Speaker 2: it's amazing. For example, it also goes down to individuality
1:25:46
Speaker 2: and the anglosphere. So the first person to walk the
1:25:49
Speaker 2: length of the Nile was an Englishman and that happened
1:25:52
Speaker 2: about ten years ago. Imagine that, after all the thousands
1:25:54
Speaker 2: of years, the first person to walk the length of
1:25:56
Speaker 2: the Nile was an Englishman. First person to walk the
1:25:58
Speaker 2: length of the of the Amazon was was an Englishman.
1:26:02
Speaker 2: Also one second, one second do you in recorded history?
1:26:05
Speaker 2: So you know, well, I'm sorry. We have records.
1:26:08
Speaker 1: We do have, yeah, but you actually don't know.
1:26:11
Speaker 2: Well, nobody, nobody will. Nobody who was African or South
1:26:13
Speaker 2: American has done it, at least within the last three
1:26:15
Speaker 2: hundred years of recorded history. And that wasn't And the
1:26:19
Speaker 2: first person to walk the length of the Yanxe was
1:26:21
Speaker 2: a Welshman, again around ten years ago. And now that's
1:26:23
Speaker 2: in China with an ancient civilization. Why did no one
1:26:25
Speaker 2: from China think about walking the length of the axe?
1:26:28
Speaker 2: First person to walk around the world and run around
1:26:30
Speaker 2: the world American and English. Same thing with ever Rest
1:26:33
Speaker 2: and so forth. There is a uniqueness to the West
1:26:35
Speaker 2: in the idea of exploring and discovering which you don't
1:26:38
Speaker 2: see elsewhere, and that's part of the reason why.
1:26:40
Speaker 1: You develop your point.
1:26:40
Speaker 4: That's the British lover walk.
1:26:42
Speaker 2: I get it.
1:26:43
Speaker 1: I do want to go back because I actually did.
1:26:44
Speaker 1: There is something specific about European rerationality, which is the problem.
1:26:48
Speaker 1: Tell me, so there is when when? And I think,
1:26:51
Speaker 1: and again do you don't pleave me here? But you
1:26:53
Speaker 1: can't really separate whiteness from this, and so descartes. I think,
1:26:55
Speaker 1: therefore I am is really I'm white, and therefore I am.
1:26:58
Speaker 1: In fact, you've given his argument to me today. There's
1:26:59
Speaker 1: something different about Europe that we're not the natives, we're
1:27:02
Speaker 1: not Africans, we're not this, and that allows this separation
1:27:04
Speaker 1: of mind from body, which actually don't see ranmotions possible.
1:27:07
Speaker 4: So African tends to be like the Chinese things they're
1:27:10
Speaker 4: different the Japanese.
1:27:12
Speaker 1: Even with the Chinese. You think about the relationship to
1:27:13
Speaker 1: the earth, you think about there's there's something about European rationality,
1:27:17
Speaker 1: the distancing of it that allows not not just with people,
1:27:20
Speaker 1: but with the world, with the earth, with you could
1:27:22
Speaker 1: look at the actual world is going to be destroyed
1:27:24
Speaker 1: by Europe.
1:27:25
Speaker 2: Literally, Chinese superior to the whole rest stopped developing.
1:27:30
Speaker 1: I'm not saying Chinese. This is not about superiority ja
1:27:33
Speaker 1: Japanese or this period. I'm talking about this the separation
1:27:36
Speaker 1: of mind from body. You don't see that in Chinese cool.
1:27:38
Speaker 1: There's a much more holistic version of what of what
1:27:40
Speaker 1: the person is. When you separate mind from body in
1:27:43
Speaker 1: that way, you you can then distance yourself from certain
1:27:46
Speaker 1: atrocities in the same in the way that we do.
1:27:47
Speaker 1: Like today, people like nine many people die from unger
1:27:49
Speaker 1: today because of the worst and we're going to go, okay,
1:27:52
Speaker 1: the expectation of the earth in a way that is
1:27:53
Speaker 1: actually going to destroy the earth. There is I agree,
1:27:56
Speaker 1: there's something unique about that in Western rationality which is
1:27:59
Speaker 1: deeply problematic, which allows us to kill the man.
1:28:01
Speaker 2: To destroy the world.
1:28:02
Speaker 1: You're actually going to world.
1:28:04
Speaker 4: You know, we were so we were so close to
1:28:06
Speaker 4: a point of agreement there because you will both agree
1:28:08
Speaker 4: and actually maybe maybe I actually there is something to
1:28:13
Speaker 4: what you're saying in the sense that every everything has
1:28:17
Speaker 4: a trade off, right, So it's possible that a particularly
1:28:20
Speaker 4: slightly more rationalistic way of thinking about it has some
1:28:23
Speaker 4: negative trade offs and a lot of positive things about it.
1:28:25
Speaker 4: It actually could be very possible that in some ways
1:28:27
Speaker 4: you're both right on this and on that bombshell, and
1:28:31
Speaker 4: on that bombshell we've actually managed to get agree. No, gentlemen,
1:28:35
Speaker 4: I actually have to say, I really appreciate you both coming.
1:28:37
Speaker 4: I thought we had a very informative discussion. Uh, these
1:28:40
Speaker 4: debates often descend into stuff. I thought we straight away
1:28:43
Speaker 4: from that as much as we could. We'll wrap up
1:28:45
Speaker 4: in the second, but perhaps she'd like both to take
1:28:47
Speaker 4: a couple of minutes just to sum up based on
1:28:49
Speaker 4: this conversation where you know just the core of your
1:28:52
Speaker 4: argument once again for people as we as.
1:28:53
Speaker 1: We wrap this up, I mean, I'll finish where us started.
1:28:57
Speaker 1: There are no good arguments for kids reparated the interesting conversation,
1:29:01
Speaker 1: but the fact of this is clear. The knife in
1:29:04
Speaker 1: the back is it wasn't taken out. And if you
1:29:06
Speaker 1: can acknowledge that there should have been reparatory justice in
1:29:09
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty eight or whatever, and that was it didn't
1:29:11
Speaker 1: take place, I just don't see how you can hold
1:29:13
Speaker 1: the argument that it should take place. There are clear
1:29:16
Speaker 1: economic consequences which still reverberate around the world from slavery,
1:29:19
Speaker 1: but not the slavery, colonism, newclonalism, etcterat cetera, et cetera.
1:29:22
Speaker 1: There's this huge gaping wealth and experience and life, not
1:29:25
Speaker 1: in this life expendency, but just life experience in general
1:29:27
Speaker 1: that needs to be addressed. And if we're serious about
1:29:29
Speaker 1: racial justice, the only way to do it is the
1:29:31
Speaker 1: one acknowledge it and then to address it, and that
1:29:33
Speaker 1: is going to need reparaity.
1:29:33
Speaker 2: Using it is time the Caribbean nations and other communities
1:29:38
Speaker 2: look upon, look look inwards and see what is it
1:29:41
Speaker 2: about our culture and our community. We need to change.
1:29:43
Speaker 2: Stop this victimhod learn about personal responsibility, take agency, improve
1:29:48
Speaker 2: your lots in life. We in Britain should be celebrated
1:29:51
Speaker 2: in the fact that we were the first power to
1:29:53
Speaker 2: deliberately make itself poorer to advance a moral good. There
1:29:56
Speaker 2: are no living victims of British empire slavery, and I
1:30:00
Speaker 2: think we need to move on from this chapter and
1:30:02
Speaker 2: understand that at its core this is all about undermining Britain,
1:30:06
Speaker 2: America and the West. More broadly, this is not about slavery.
1:30:09
Speaker 2: If it was, people would be talking about modern slavery
1:30:12
Speaker 2: today in Africa with ten million slaves. That's never spoken about,
1:30:16
Speaker 2: and surely the lives of people today are far more important.
1:30:18
Speaker 2: And the fact that that issue isn't even spoken about
1:30:21
Speaker 2: once in any article on this subject I think speaks
1:30:24
Speaker 2: volumes about the true motivations behind a lot of those
1:30:26
Speaker 2: who are calling for reparations.
1:30:28
Speaker 4: All right, well, I appreciate you both coming. Thank you
1:30:30
Speaker 4: for watching and listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If
1:30:32
Speaker 4: you did, make sure to like, subscribe and share it
1:30:34
Speaker 4: with others who you think might find it interesting.
1:30:36
Speaker 2: You soon