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Christian Zionism and Second Temple Judaism | Rev. Jon Umbdenstock · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson. while this hotel room is a little bit different, I am in a hotel Billings, Montana out of town for a conference ⁓ and me ⁓ from Montana, the other side of the state, Reverend John of Whitefish, Montana, United Methodist. Welcome. Howdy, howdy, howdy. Well folks, I'm really glad that Reverend John is here. Like I said, he pastors United Methodist Church in Whitefish, Montana. ⁓ Come across one another online, and he's got a sub stack that I highly suggest you all go check out following this call because, call, podcast, chat, whatever we're doing. I know, it's weird. ⁓ Because he wrote on, ⁓ Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Howdy, glad to be here. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Christian Zionism, which we talk about over here with Christian nationalism, US military chaplaincy. And now it's like everyone's, everyone is coming together. Like it's, and so many things that people study or are passionate about are all starting to come together in this horrifying national global puzzle. And really am looking forward to hearing your thoughts and perspectives. So John, Reverend John? John, how would you like to be John? And he did say that folks call him John the Baptist, even though he's Methodist. So that's a funny one too, folks. But in your article, Hot Takes, the Evil of Christian Zionism, really well done. I appreciate the caveat. In fact, let's begin there. ⁓ When we talk about Zionism, when we talk about all of this, Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: You can call me John. John's fine. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Is, are we talking about all of Judaism? What are we specifically saying when we are saying ⁓ Zionism? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Well, that is such a blanket term, and when you're talking about the entirety of it, especially when it's referring to Judaism, I am definitely not the expert. that's where the, I'm not the expert on any of this, but I am addressing the Christian aspect of it. a couple reasons. So I guess I can give it a little bit of a blanket. There's different ways of looking at what does Zionism mean. To some, and I'm basing this off of conversations I've had with Jewish friends. So sometimes it can mean something as simple as the Jewish people have their homeland, ancestrally speaking, in Israel, and a version of Zionism is that they have the rights to return to their homeland. Some might say at all political costs, that might be a more extreme Zionism, and we're seeing some of the political ramifications of that. Some just might be that they have a right to exist as a people. ⁓ It's very broad, but I'm a Christian. As a non-Jewish person, I don't have a lot that I feel that I have the authority to speak on with broad Zionism because our own house is a mess. with our own Christian house being a mess, who am I to be poking at in other religions' ⁓ internal conversations? In fact, for those who follow the the schedule in the church, the calendar of the readings, ⁓ this, ⁓ actually no, it's not the dictionary part, it's our Bible study. We're going through the Gospel of Matthews, like verse by verse. And we just got to the part of not judging and not trying to remove a speck in your neighbor's eye and you gotta log in your own. And so, kind of similar. Our Christian, ⁓ house right now is in disarray and that's where I'm really interested in focusing on. So Christian Zionism is different from general Zionism and that's what that article was about. And yeah, was the first thing I wrote about in that article was that caveat. So I will end there and let you ⁓ guide what you want to pick at in that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, well, and that's a, said that your congregation is going through the gospel. ⁓ What are some of your congregants' concerns with the war? What are you seeing? ⁓ Or even like, yeah, yeah, how are they seeing this Christian Zionism and what are the conversations at your church right now? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: There's definitely a lot of concern just about everything that's happening ⁓ politically, whether it's the nation, the world, or even locally, Flathead Valley or Montana. ⁓ I don't like to label a congregation in broad terms like conservative or progressive, but our group is definitely more on the justice as a concern to them. They are very concerned about the injustices that they're seeing, whether that's locally or ⁓ right now in the, what's going on in the wars. We lift this up in prayer week after week, concerned for the people that are suffering under what's happening. Even if, you know, the Iranian regime, for example, is committing horrible atrocities, it's, there's still going to be a lot of innocent people hurt through what's going on right now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I like that you talk about like our own house is in disarray and you're putting him mildly. Well, and what's concerning too is that people are claiming ⁓ Christianity as theirs and using Christian rhetoric and really creating this whole thing that this is what all Christians want, that they speak for Christians, that... Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: That's weighing heavily on their hearts for sure. Putting it mildly. Leigh/@followtheleighder: people who disagree with them are heretics. And it's just, it's really concerning. And that's not new for Christian history, of course, but when you get it involved at a national scale and with the military, that gets to be very concerning. ⁓ And when you're, I'm writing your article here talking about ⁓ this idea of assisting or supporting Israel, but Israel, the country or the state of Israel is not the same as the people of Israel. Can you talk a little bit about that? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Very. Well yeah, and lot of that, you it goes to Genesis 12 where if you bless Abraham and Abraham's descendants, you will be blessed, and if you curse, you will be cursed. ⁓ I was just listening to ⁓ one of Tim Whitaker's podcasts, I know you had him on very recently, and he was just talking about how people are making an entire theology with world ramifications off of one verse in one book. throughout the entirety of scripture. And ⁓ it's kind of wild, that in itself. this idea, like God promised Abraham ⁓ that he would become a great nation. A little bit later on, couple of chapters later, God promised Abraham that Abraham's soon to be numerous descendants being the people Israel would be a blessing to the world. ⁓ And yeah, in that chapter 12, those who bless will be blessed, those who curse will be cursed. And first of all, I think that's more of a reflection of the time and the people who wrote it. I think the heart of God is still very much there, that we are to bless those around us. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, it's okay. mean, that's a good like, taking its building, ⁓ like you said, a Christian Zionist theology off of ⁓ supporting a ⁓ chosen people. There's a lot of self-selecting is chosen going on ⁓ is what I'm really gathering from a lot of words. Like the chosen people of the United States, like they're gonna go help. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: I'm gonna restart that thought. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like there's a lot of... And again, it's so narrow because I don't have my friends that are in the Jewish community. Not everybody, not this is not like a ubiquitous Jewish dream. And neither is it for Christians either is what I'm trying to clarify. Sorry, I do feel like I cut you off. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Well, yeah. Yeah, well, kind of. Yeah, and kind of back to the question that you had just asked. ⁓ people Israel being the Jewish people and they're not a monolith there's a lot of you know differences and within their own communities some of them view the state of Israel as you know their homeland and that's and their God I Don't say God given right that sounds kind of But you know God promised them that Some will say that no this doesn't really reflect who we are as people and that's more of just a nation-state, but in any event God's promise there is so much more broad than a nation state. God's saying, you know, you were to bless God's Jewish people. And that I don't know if I necessarily believe in the theology of punishment and reward based on that, which obviously some of our leaders do, Huckabee very much does. ⁓ Specifically with the nation state, you can't even criticize it because if you're criticizing it, that is considered cursing apparently. ⁓ which I think is asinine, but it's more about the people, the greater people. And then as we go throughout the scriptures, both ⁓ the gospels, the epistles, that blessing is to extend beyond the Jewish people. So it's starting first with, yeah, bless, be a blessing to God's chosen, you know, vessel. And I've also heard it very well put. I think it was Karl Barth who said, God chose Israel so that Israel can choose others. And when I'm speaking Israel, I'm talking about the people, the Jewish people. God chose them to choose others, to be a blessing to the world. And I believe many of them were really, really, really trying to live into that as much as they can. ⁓ There's so much I can learn from the Jewish faith, so much I want to learn from it. But yeah, before I can go criticizing their own internal policies and you know, I've got my critiques of ⁓ the current administration over there. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It is, and it's very scary when you start messing with religion in the nation states, because like you said, it's not, it's the, it's a, it's a nation state issue, not a people issue. But then the same thing like here in the United States, it's like, what? Then how, of course you see obviously them promoting the Christian nation, turning point USA, the fireworks, like this whole. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: the harm that's being done in Gaza, all that, but. We've got our own house in disarray here in the Christian world and that is really, I'd like to get working on that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: fanfare around a lot of Christian symbolism. ⁓ And there's a number of folks that don't mind. Actually, they encourage, they're excited about this idea that this is an Armageddon. This is the ⁓ Holy War. ⁓ could possibly lead to the the rapture or to Jesus returning. Can you talk about the rapture theology and where that came from? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah, I mean, so first of all, the rapture theology, which is part of a greater theology, dispensationalism, it might be what most, especially outside of the church in America, think is Christian theology, but it's never been a part of the mainstream of Christianity. It didn't exist for 1800 years at all. There were some hints that there might be some sort of a ⁓ trying to remember what it was. I'll get back to that. ⁓ It really came to fruition with John Nelson Darby, an Englishman. He fell off his horse, hit his head, had a vision. In this vision, he saw the world. ⁓ And it wasn't all his original ideas. He was just taking some these fringe ideas that were never part of the mainstream, and he kind of took it and ran with it. And one of his followers, Schofield, then created the Schofield Reference Bible, where in 1 Thessalonians, he put this note below it that This is when believers get raptured up. And it was the verse where ⁓ the trumpet blows and the faithful will meet God in the sky, essentially. And it's a very cryptic verse that a lot of scholars to this day don't know entirely what it means. But it's one verse out of the entirety of scripture. And this is where the whole idea of being raptured up, left behind, comes from. But it's not a historic Christian belief. Catholic Church does not support it. The Orthodox Church does not support it. Most Protestantism does not support it. This is a minority view, but this minority view has a very strong hold within our national politics. This specific version of born-again Christianity, not all born-again Christianity fits within that script, but that specific version, we find it in Mike Huckabee, Mike Johnson, ⁓ Doug Wilson, is, from what I understand, a self-anointed pastor, who is the pastor of Pete Hoxhaf. mean, it may be a small view, but it's got an enormous power right now. And they believe that what's happening both in Israel, in Iran, Iran, is kind of a precursor to Jesus coming back and rapturing the believers. Part of this, must support Israel, comes from this. Because, not because they love the Jewish people so much that they want their Jewish people to have a home free from persecution, that would be wonderful. But because this all must happen for the Christian believers to be raptured up to heaven while the rest of the world faces trials and tribulations and All those that in their view that don't repent will spend an eternity in the eternal conscious torment. And it's like, how is that love that is using the Jewish people and their place in history as pawns? That's not standing with a people called Israel. That's that's using the nation state for your own purposes. And I just find that to be. Leigh/@followtheleighder: All right, and you know what's interesting? George Washington said that, actually John Adams, the letter, Tripoli, Treaty of Tripoli, he's like that the United States is not a Christian nation, it's not a religious nation, we don't have any religious enemies, particularly Muslim. And what's really particularly interesting, A, is like he also was the one to create the Chaplain Corps. So it's like we're talking about military. ministers, ⁓ tax-paid clergy, which intersects in a church and state, ⁓ which it has been fought down in the court. Back in the 80s, some Harvard folks tried to sue because they thought it was a—you their taxes were going to a religious figure. And the Supreme Court struck it, said that it was— ⁓ because of the unique nature of the job of being in the military that you have given an oath to possibly die for your country, you should be supported with spiritual care provided by your employer, which is in this case the US military. really weird, finicky things around the Chaplain Corps. I don't actually remember what I was going to say. I'm so sorry. ⁓ the George Washington, that's where it started. ⁓ He was the one to start the Chaplain Corps, had, you know, mainline Protestants banging at the door to get in and be the first wave. But within three months, he was advocating for a Unitarian, or maybe it was a Universalist, I can never remember. But because he wanted to make sure that it just did not become this Protestant Christian army. He was like, you know what, like throw in. And the Protestant mainline weren't happy about it. And he was like, I don't, that's not the point. Cause we're not trying to create a theology. I just need spiritual people in the room to stop you guys from drinking and gambling and like all the things that come from war, behaviorally and the PTSD and like the significant things. ⁓ And also to provide services and rituals and things like that. But again, it was not like... It was not about converting souls or fighting for anyone. And it's really jarring to me to watch someone like Pete Hegseth hop online and record videos from the DOD's Facebook page and ⁓ weave. He talks about George Washington starting the Chaplain Corps as if to, and then leaves everything else out about it. But. just to weave in that Christian nationalist, like see, even George Washington knew how important, you know, knowing God was. And it's like, he did, but you're making it seem like this is something that, it's just a very fascinating ⁓ line that chaplains walk and clearly is now a concern because they can get weaponized very quickly. ⁓ I also wanted to bring this up with you just in terms of like patterns, but I recently read a book and I wish I had it. It's like so. But it's, ⁓ my goodness, is called, ⁓ it'll, Arian Jesus, Arian Jesus, Christian theologians during Nazi Germany. But it talks about this institute in Germany, and I'm not gonna be able to pronounce. obviously the German one, but it was the institution of Jewish eradication in German Christian life and that it was all about de-Judifying Germany and not only Germany but going through the New Testament and pulling out all of anything that could make Jesus Jewish and like they de-Judie-ized it and that's what they called it there I go the de-Judiazation can't even pronounce it, but it had a nickname and they talked about how Jesus couldn't possibly be Jewish because he spoke out against the Jews so he was above Jewish people. They did the same thing with Paul, that Paul spoke out against the Jews therefore he must not be Jewish. They created something different and new and that they already had the... Renaissance medieval paintings of a white Jesus and then kind of you know a European Jesus, but this is where they really took Jesus and separated him racially and theologically from Bolshevik Jews, which and then it became a very racial ethnic It just got so ugly and and the thing that concerns me about it is exactly kind of what you and I were talking about earlier that That was very deliberate because you cannot understand the New Testament without Second Temple Judaism. And I want to give you an opportunity to explain, I know I just talked for like three minutes, sorry guys, I typically try to put it on the guest, but I needed to build all that up. ⁓ But I want to hear you talk about the Second Temple Judaism and what that is. Help us for those who haven't been to church in a minute. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: So let me I'll kind of first respond to what you built up there and some of the danger I'm seeing with that and then kind of answer the actual question of that. What you just shared about what they were doing in Germany at that time was an extreme version of what's really kind of been happening in many ways since Augustine in the fourth century, but especially getting later and later, especially since Martin Luther and onward of stripping Christianity from its Jewish roots, becoming something more more distinctly different. Jesus never rebuked Judaism. He had issues with the way the temple was being run in this time, but that was an insider conversation of like, I have issues within the United Methodist Church at times. mean, that's just an insider conversation that people have, that we wasn't rebuking the religion. Paul never said he wasn't a Pharisee anymore. ⁓ Paul was very much still a Pharisee. they weren't, Paul was saying he didn't have to become Jewish to be a Christian, but he was never separating it from it. Judaism is the core of where Christianity came from. and When we completely separate it from that, we're kind of making up our own religion. A religion, a Christian faith that is not rooted in the Jewish understanding is essentially out of the sky. I it's been made up. And I know it's kind of a strong statement. Some people go, what's he talking about? But Jesus never rebuked any of that. So what is that period? Well, there is a handful of different periods within Judaism, but they built their temple in the first monarchic period under, I guess it was built under Solomon, but it was King David that had the vision to build a temple for God. They were a unified country at this point. ⁓ They got the temple going and Solomon's reign and then there were some problems and the country ended up splitting north and south. The north retains the name Israel, but most people refer to it as the capital of Samaria. And then the south was the tribes of Judah and think Benjamin was the other tribe there. And they went by the name Judah and Jerusalem was their capital and that kind of became where we get Judaism from now. ⁓ Where the name Jewish comes from, Jew, Judah. ⁓ Well, the north fell to Assyria in the 700s BC, and not too long later, the south, Judah, fell to ⁓ Babylon. All the people were exiled, the temple was destroyed, life as they knew it was shattered, and this was such a pivotal moment in their theology, like so much of understanding their identity as the hardships faced in this time and getting back. And so ⁓ once Persia took over Babylon, Persia made a deal with some of the leaders of the Jewish people, and they ended up going back to their land and getting reestablished. When they got reestablished, they rebuilt the temple. This is Second Temple Judaism. Probably one of the reasons why this is so lacking and so much of Protestantism is Most the books that reflect the Second Temple period of Judaism are the books that the Protestants threw out of the Bible. We frequently refer to as the Apocrypha. ⁓ Like the books of definitely 1st 2nd Maccabees, there was four of those books, really kind of share some of the narratives and the ideas that were coming forth within the Jewish leadership in that time. Resurrection as a Jewish theology didn't exist until this time. There was no resurrection. You died, you just went to Sheol, which was the resting place of the dead. All went there. But they were struggling with this belief of, well, God made all these promises in the Torah to us, that if we do God's will, we will be blessed, and if we go astray from God's will, we will be cursed. But there were a lot of people who were doing God's will that were still dying young, dying without getting the ripe old age and with all the blessings that they believed they were promised. So they kind of had this revelation of, all right, so either God's promises are bullshit, or we believe God's promises are still true, they must happen post-mortem. And that's kind of where the idea of resurrection in Jewish law began. And that was, you can trace some of that in the book of, I think it was first, if not first and second, Maccabees. You'll find Maccabees in the Catholic Bible, you'll find it in the Eastern Orthodox Bible. but you won't find it in Protestant Bible. Now the Jewish people don't consider that part of their Bible, but it's still very much part of the history that shaped how it informed the theology that led up to rabbinic Judaism today, what led up to Jesus, what led up to what became the four sects of Judaism in Jesus' time, which were two of the most people know, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, but there's also the Essenes and the Zealots. The Zealots were, you know, your Antifa, they were going to take it by force. They were Bolsheviks. They were going to overthrow it. They wanted to overthrow Rome, get them out, and they were going to use any means necessary to do it. The Essenes kind of have the more Amish approach. We're just going to live off of society, kind of do our own thing. But the Pharisees were the ones who were kind of active in everyday life. They were the ones who believed in this resurrection because They were using the theology of God made promises. We believe these promises to be true. They were upheld in the prophets. We're going to acknowledge this, and this has to be the way because otherwise God's a liar. Now the Sadducees, they were the more conservatives. To them, the word of God was the Torah and nothing beyond it. So no resurrection in Torah. There couldn't have been resurrection at all. So they didn't believe in resurrection, period. So this leads us to two the time of Jesus, the time of Paul. When they speak of the resurrection, there is already this expectation from Pharisaical Judaism that a great resurrection would happen at the end of days. And it wasn't like a one-time thing. One person would be resurrected. John Dominic Croson talks about this all the time whenever he's being interviewed in his books. It would have been completely an asinine thought for a person, a Pharisee like Paul, that the resurrection was just Jesus and that was it. No, it's supposed to be starting something beyond because this was in their expectation. It was going to be a great resurrection and Jesus simply started it. ⁓ But the Pharisees didn't believe, or the Sadducees didn't believe in that because it wasn't the Word of God. These arguments might sound similar to arguments in Christianity today of this can't be allowed, it's against God's Word, or this must be. It goes back to the same thing. And then also it's like Paul most likely did not believe in hell because that was not part of that Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Second Temple Judaism belief. God would not resurrect someone that has already been in the resting place up to life to then send them ⁓ back down to eternal death. Their belief was that if you were resurrected, you were resurrected because you were one of the ones who were faithful. So when Paul speaks about death, he's speaking about actual literal death, that you will die and there will be no resurrection for you. So that's kind of all that informs. I know we're kind of getting off the Christian nationalism part, but that's kind of the background that informs ⁓ where our faith comes from and understanding what Jesus means when he's talking about what people interpret as heaven versus hell, what Paul is talking about. Paul never mentions hell. When Paul's talking about eternal life, he's thinking about this resurrection that was come and that was not in the original belief of God's word that came from wrestling with God's word. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it's, it's the story ties into Christian nationalism. So interesting because like you said, throughout history, there was a particularly Protestant, a lot of animosity between Christianity and Judaism and trying to separate, divorce oneself, you know. ⁓ And then, so now the swing of you're hearing the phrase Judeo-Christian, which that's also not really. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: or through reason and experience. Leigh/@followtheleighder: a word in history, Judeo-Christian. ⁓ Are you familiar too much with the creation of the state of Israel at all? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah, that's very A little bit, not, I mean, I know it was the Balfour Declaration's how it began and a lot of it had to do with, there's a certain amount, know, there was certain Jewish interests that wanted to be there. I mean, it was their ancestry and there were certain business interests, especially in England and the United States that wanted an ally over there. And there were definitely Christian Zionist people who were, as I kind of went back to before, who essentially were using this whole event, this whole creation of this country and all the ramifications of it, of people being expelled from their homes, of the people who had just gotten out of the Holocaust looking for a home, ⁓ using all these people as pawns for their own belief that the end times will then be able to be brought to us. And in times, it's not even really a historic Christian view of how the whole story culminates anyways. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and it's concerning because, for so many reasons, ⁓ because like you said, they've gone rogue. And this past summer, I spent two months in Pakistan working alongside Muslim women towards efforts of other Pakistani women. know, girls access to education or child marriage. I even did some work with working with women of the Afghan refugee, of the Afghan Taliban. There were refugees. And whenever I would engage in these conversations with Muslim women, it was over and over. was like the Taliban, it's not... they've gone rogue. Like it's not even Sharia law or Sharia law anymore. In fact, there were quite a number of conservative Muslims who said, I wish that they would obey Sharia law so they wouldn't be so violent. And, and it was just that kind of sentiment over and over. was just like, maybe they disagreed. How do I want to say this? ⁓ Maybe they agreed that they, with the Taliban, that they didn't want the West in Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you know, they didn't want all this involvement with the US in their country or they didn't want all this and they're like, yeah, we want the West to leave, but that doesn't mean, you know, we want the Taliban to rise because the Taliban are, like said, they've gone rogue. It is not even following the socially agreed upon texts or, and from what I gathered was that kind of also happens with extremism. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: is that you have to go rogue because the moderates, especially if it's a core belief of like the whole country, like the United States, know, secular government, but Christian culturally, and that you can mention the gospel of John and most people will know at least what you're talking about when you walk into a room or something. But, but what they were saying was the theology of the Taliban has changed in the last few decades as it's gone further and further extreme because the theologians they used to have were came from institutions or they were well respected in the larger community and they like felt that they were being you know extreme and edgy but then as it kept going like they were losing those types of leaders until they can finally just get a a peep Hegsef of their own and um And it's a really, ⁓ when I was talking to them about it, was like, ⁓ my gosh, there's just so many similarities. And then reading Nazi Germany in 1930s, the creation state, and again, it's not, it's nothing to do with the religion of Islam or the religion of Judaism, it is, or Christianity, it is these very. The radicals are now calling the shots for everybody, is what I'm trying to say. And it's very infuriating and I feel like so many of us have an opportunity to bond over it, because I'm very angry to see Christianity be used this way in my country, in my military. And it's not new to Christian history to do this and use this for just, I'm not, I'm just, I have so- Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Christianity has its own house and disarrays, he said, and also the United States does. Like we have things we need to focus, get out, what are we doing? Like over there, or down south in Venezuela, let's stop it. Like boots on the ground here, so. ⁓ My God, you could liberate so many people out of poverty by simply addressing, it made me so mad when Elon Musk donated something like 20 million to a Wisconsin Supreme Court run or something like that. And I was like, that $20 million could do some significant, you wanna uplift and liberate people, like find people in rural Wisconsin. You could do something to their, I don't, build a library, build a hospital. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah. Liberating the people. What about liberating our own people? ⁓ yeah. There's a great name that shows rockets flying in the air in the Middle East from both sides. It says on one side of the rockets, my tax dollars, and the other side of rockets, somehow also my tax dollars. And then it shows Appalachian poverty, and it's like, somehow none of my tax dollars. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Somehow awesome. Right. so I'm not on my dog's dollars, but ⁓ I'm interested how. I want to ask this. When you think about the next few years, what are some of your most pressing concerns? What are those things that keep you up at night? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: ⁓ gosh. ⁓ There's a couple different ways I could answer that, because there's the one... Sure, I've got my concerns about what's happening in our country. The freedoms that may be lost, all that kind of stuff. But then I also kind of remember that it's like, well, we've been so fortunate living here that we just haven't really had to face a lot of what so many other people in other parts of the world or other times have had to deal with. But remembering that, you know, we never promised that we would you know, the freedom of the United States of America was not promised to us by God. That was just not a thing. In fact, we were promised that if we do God's will, we will face hardship. And ⁓ so it's like, I'm trying to like balance that because I'm so, you know, I've been accustomed to 43 years of life here that ⁓ there's things that I value or have taken for granted sometimes that, you know, we could face losing, but also try to remember it's like, all right, Let me not focus all my energy on the kingdom of this world when what I'm more concerned about is how the church is being weaponized by certain individuals. Now that's profaning God's name, profaning God's presence in the world, and then being shocked that church attendance is going down. like, I can't imagine why. That to me is like the bigger concern. As a minister, it's like, yeah, I'm going to partake in the political process. will vote. I will ⁓ educate. I don't believe, my personal belief is as a Christian, especially as a clergy person, but ⁓ that I am to ever serve in an elected office. I think I don't believe I could serve God and Caesar. ⁓ So it's like, will do my part, but I got to remember at the end of the day, taking care of ⁓ our house that's in disarray and Christianity is to me the most pressing concern because that's what I'm called to account as a leader. And I look on with such, I'm just aghast at what I see of what's being taught. The kind of Christianity that, like, another thing Whitaker has pointed out week after week for good reason is like the glee and Josh Howerton's, the megachurch pastor's eyes when he's talking about the wars in Iran and how we know how this war ends in Ezekiel. It's like, what are you talking about, man? This is an unfaithful reading of Christianity and people are suffering because of it. I'm concerned about that, that kind of being that prophetic voice. I feel like that's where But if we are talking about more on the ground issues, yeah, well, guess that nationalism that's creeping in to the church space, because it's affecting both the politics and the church. That's one of my biggest ones, and especially the Flathead Valley is kind of wild. The Ten Commandments billboards that are all over this area and certain churches, and somehow it's tied to the gun shops and the... capitalism and all the things that have nothing to do with the gospel. In fact, you're antithetical to the gospel. And now there's this rise of extremism happening with like, or youth are being targeted by ⁓ organizations. And I mean, the turning point ones are the lesser, less scary ones. Like, we need some sort of an answer to like, because youth are getting and starting to get indoctrinated by these kind of Christo nationalist beliefs that are just Leigh/@followtheleighder: And it's so concerning because folks like, I enjoy listening to Tim Whitaker and he's a great guest the other day. ⁓ Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: so antithetical to the Prince of Peace. Leigh/@followtheleighder: but and i'm so thankful for his service and his leadership as a creator but like if you hear his story or other ex-evangelical story we're looking at in 10-15 years if people start wait when people start we're looking at a whole bunch of pain it gets like almost like watching some large-scale jim jones type thing where it's like i'm so angry about what you're doing right now and blah blah but also whenever this goes like you're going to be devastated. like there's going to be some major existential and then by that point, yes you are a victim of being part of this but you will have caused so much suffering that you will have also you know been a an aggressor or a predator or something like you will have by the time and it's and it's a really these people won't believe it until they do and that was in that book about that ⁓ Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: The second book I read about Nazi Germany chaplains was God and Hitler, Military Chaplains of Nazi Germany. great book. I'll make sure I'll comment that in the caption. But she talked about how did it go from chaplains just being really excited to spread Christianity or to quote, weed out anybody who threatened Ari and Jesus Christianity, Ari and Jesus, and really excited to over the course of the war, ⁓ starting to really feel the effects of war, like seeing like their men die, seeing injuries, seeing like really bad things. And then like feeling like, my only role here is to tend to these Christian soldier martyrs. there's like a whole period where chaplains are really writing a lot about how much death they're experiencing and how they feel that that was their purpose at one point was just for the death aspect. ⁓ And then towards the end, like they don't even they're not even talking about a purpose anymore. And it's wild to watch the enthusiasm drop until finally like a Catholic, not finally, but one of the stories is how a Catholic German military chaplain just turned like no threat whatsoever. He was walking down the street and in front of a church was a small Jewish child and account just killed her and like didn't even think about it and how does it go and and that's what's scary is once you start war you can't stop it like And and they're talking about this war is so fast this thing is going on like this thing is This is... and when you call it a holy war and you know Christianity or America may have all the nukes but there are billions of Muslims that are watching that. Like whether or not they support America going after Iran specifically but it is global what you just sowed, the seeds that you just sowed across the world when a... Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Nope. Leigh/@followtheleighder: is anyway I'm talking way too much I'm sorry folks Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: It's all good. ⁓ We're kind of fortunate with the the fact of the incompetence in the administration. ⁓ But anyway, kind of part of my story ⁓ that kind of backs up a little bit like I was like on the much less extreme version of where like Tim Whitaker's story was. ⁓ I wasn't always Methodist. I grew up Catholic. ⁓ And then I did like the. non-denominational evangelical thing, megachurch thing for a while. was a member of a church in South Carolina that when I was there at 8,000 regular attendees and then it ended up, they ended up with like eight campuses across the state with 30 something thousand people, like massive influence. And then I moved to Austin, Texas and I was part of two different churches there. One of which I still ⁓ think pretty highly of, one of which I do not. I've seen a lot of harm done at that one. it's like we didn't have quite the extreme. We weren't talking Christian national stuff. In fact, a handful of people there were probably, it was probably close to a 50 50 split politically. But it was more of like the quiet stuff, the stuff that I didn't realize until I was like out of there. It's like, like the purity culture stuff. We didn't shame anyone, but it was still kind of talked in a way that it's like the damage was just being done more quiet. more softly. We didn't believe in, you know, the United States had any sort of specific role in God's plan in that kind of Christian nationalism sort of way. We didn't believe that it had to be ruled by Christians and Christians only. And it was a country for Christians and Christians only, nothing like that. But it was still kind of this underlying like everyone was suspect if that was out in the world. And one of those churches was part of the church planting network that Mark Driscoll started from, what was it, Acts 29. And yeah, that was part of my story. I used to read Mark Driscoll's books. Now I look at that, like what he writes and says, I'm like, man, I don't like When I'm in perfect vessel myself, I don't like to poke at other people as if I'm on some sort of high place and can point at others on how they're doing their pastoral jobs poorly. But some people are causing harm. yeah, Driscoll is one of those people. And some of the other, like if you're gleefully excited about the war in Iran because prophecy is being fulfilled, which First of all, it's not how prophecy works, but also... That's causing harm, and that needs to be called out. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. And for—like, again, the White House really hasn't clarified why we're over there. Like, it's like, okay, just to get rid of the regime, okay. No, we're going total warfare because there were nukes. No, there weren't—there's no clear story. And that's what makes it sound like— Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: That's some of the disarray in our house. Leigh/@followtheleighder: really even that much more disingenuous when you do invoke God and religion in the midst of having a very unclear strategy, publicly at least, is that if you're invoking God, like it feels almost like, it's not feels, it is. It's very much exploitative from the leadership being like, ⁓ no, this is all for God. Don't ask too many questions back here. You don't, no, no, because if there was a clear answer like, and it just feels like the bait and switch and it breaks my heart for so many people who are fully into that even though they're, you know, I'm angry too. But what was the thing that kind of made you question the community you were part of? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Honestly, it's not actually how I end up being separated from it at all. I was trying to do a church plant in Tennessee and I was engaged and then got disengaged. I'm talking about like engaged like for marriage. And that just kind of like just derailed everything I was doing and I just kind of was like mad at God for a while. So that's I felt. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: And it was just kind of just separation. And it was also part of it was just pragmatic. was like, if I ever do this work again, I need more of a connection than one megachurch a thousand miles away. need support. And that's why like, maybe I should check out the denominations because when I lived in Tennessee, I kind of moved there at this thought process that had been part of my ex Catholic life that all the institutions were beyond repair. It's like, I just did not believe in any sort of institution. I mean, I still believe to certain degree that we're supposed to more of a movement than an institution, but that's for another conversation. But ⁓ so I just, I was like anti denominations at that point. And until this, this all happened, and especially because in the couple of years that I was in Tennessee before this breaking point hit, I was seeing different friends who were, one was Lutheran, one was Anglican, some were Presbyterian, like doing really cool outside the box things I didn't think was possible in a denominational setting, and realized that I needed to take my own blinders off that, you know, not everything's as clean cut as I thought. Clear cut. And my theology was more Wesleyan anyway, so I started and finished that exploration with the Methodists. And I remember Duke offered me a Methodist scholarship, even though I was just exploring the possibility. I wasn't Methodist yet. I was not confirmed, or mean, was baptized, confirmed to Catholic, but I was not welcomed into membership in a Methodist church at that point. Just doors just opened in weird ways. it was less of some sort of thing that turned me away from before to just experiencing a different way, was able to then look back and go, ⁓ okay. Now, one megachurch that I still had a lot of, you know, I was connected with for a while, I was doing the church plant on behalf. I still, I don't know what they're like now, because it's been so long, but I still respect a lot about them. They're not, I wouldn't put them in that problematic category like I would with some of these. I just have a little bit of differences in theology now than I did then. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. And that's, again, the hardest bit to explain is especially as a Christian, being angry at Christian nationalists. Or I get really, I've seen it quite a bit of how this could damage, quote unquote, the brand of Christianity moving forward, if that's how people associate it. But I don't know, that feels a little doomsday. I mean, we did the same exact stuff. not same exact, but pretty similar during the Civil War, a lot of rhetoric. So this is... ⁓ Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: We've been doing it for 1700 years. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, yeah, to be—yeah. So it really isn't constant. So this isn't new. In fact, I think a lot about Erica Kirk and Constantine's mother, St. Helena, a lot, and how he sent his mother to go campaign on behalf of the Empire to mother it. And I was like, ⁓ like Erica Kirk. ⁓ that was a big deal. Yeah, he—it one of the first things he did. He gave her a whole—you know, they had— Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Wow. I did not know about that. That makes sense, Leigh/@followtheleighder: the whole trumpets and the banners and she was doling out. She probably had some gifts, but like bread and fruit and stuff and to really take on this like Virgin Mary suffering woman role. is no pyrotechnics at the time. No, but they did have fanfare. Like it was like a whole thing. And I didn't come across that story in the context of Erica Kirk. I did it in the context of how did women. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: No pirotyping. Yeah Leigh/@followtheleighder: expand the Christian empire throughout Christian history. That was the course and it was a great course. Not even expand the empire, but like how did they further Christianity notably? that was, it was, yeah, yeah. Let me go find the syllabus and I'll send you that book list, but don't let me forget. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: That's... That sounds amazing. That worked. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, it was and that was just one of those things. And then I think of as I was watching Erica Kirk after Charlie's death, I was like, ⁓ this is like St. Helena vibes. Like this is ⁓ or Helena. I don't know how particularly denominations pronounce it, but ⁓ but this whole fanfare. Yeah, yeah. Right. It's on. But ⁓ again, the playbook doesn't change. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah. We're in Montana, so hell no. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's scary that they'll just keep using things. But as we get close, I ⁓ really appreciate you hanging out with me. Can you tell us where can folks read or learn more about your work? Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Well, at this point, as far as out in the public sphere besides just my personal Facebook and Instagram accounts, right now it's mainly the blog, ⁓ misfitminister.substack.com. I try to weekly put my ⁓ sermons into prose and put them up there, but ⁓ I'm catching up and I got a little behind. But then I try to put out other things as well. And that's kind of where I'm starting. hoping to in the next few years probably write a book. ⁓ I've got a few different ideas on that. But the... I'm toying with starting to do more of some sort of a vlog type idea, whether it's like, you know, a solo podcast or just something to... I've been toying with the idea of theology Thursdays. I just like, I love alliteration. So, but right now, right now it's just this up stack mainly. Or I mean, my Instagram is, I think John underscore you underscore misfit minister, something like that. And John's with... Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: For those who are just listening and not watching, there's no H in John, J-O-N. Ironically, for what we were talking about today, it's the Jewish spelling of John. I learned that more recently. That was not why I was named that. It just happens to be the case. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I am really thankful for your work, for your ministry. ⁓ You know, it is such an ideal. is... It feels so much bigger than just right versus left. This feels really, really big. And I am thankful to have connected paths with you and look forward. I hope to have you in the back in the future and to be allies out in the Montana community together because... Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: My god, is this, this is much bigger than, you know, typical religion. Rev. Jon Umbdenstock: And if you're in the Flathead Valley, ⁓ come connect with us at ⁓ 10 AM on Sundays at Whitefish United Methodist. Got to plug it, right? Leigh/@followtheleighder: All righty. You gotta plug it. You gotta do it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And again, I hope you all enjoyed that conversation with Reverend John Umdutsock. You were awesome. United Methodist pastor Whitefish Montana. Folks, let me know, what did you think of that podcast conversation? ⁓ kind ringing any bells with you? have any other concerns? Did you know much about Second Temple Judaism? I really, I appreciate these deep dives. I'd like to have you back on to talk about this stuff at a different time. But until then, y'all, this Follow Leighder. I am your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.