Latest / Beyond Fulfillment Podcast / Iterating Fast and Fearlessly: How Van Tucker Built a National Locker Network

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Iterating Fast and Fearlessly: How Van Tucker Built a National Locker Network · Beyond Fulfillment Podcast

• 0:04
  I think there's like one philosophy where if you're not embarrassed by your first product, I mean, your first, like, revision, you should be.
• 0:12
  You launched too late, you know.
• 0:14
  So today we're joined by Van Tucker, a serial entrepreneur with a passion for building innovative tech ventures.
• 0:22
  With a background in launching and growing businesses, Van is now a founding team member of Harbor Locker, a company reshaping how we access final mile deliveries and secure package storage.
• 0:35
  In this episode, Van shares the fascinating story behind Harbor Lockers rapid growth.
• 0:41
  From testing MVP lockers in a small California town to building a nationwide network with over 500 locations, we dive into the agile mindset that drove the early iterations, the surprising ways customers are using their lockers.
• 0:58
  Think nightclubs and stadiums.
• 1:00
  And also the mindset needed to sustain a startup through the biggest challenges and unexpected pivots.
• 1:06
  If you're curious about logistics, innovation, entrepreneurial.
• 1:10
  Grit, or the stories that unfold when.
• 1:13
  Technology meets real world needs, you won't want to miss this conversation.
• 1:17
  As always, if you found value from this content, please like and subscribe.
• 1:22
  All right, Van Tucker, welcome to Beyond Fulfillment.
• 1:27
  Well, thank you for having me on here today.
• 1:28
  Super excited.
• 1:30
  Yes, sir, we are as well.
• 1:32
  So, Van, you've been a serial entrepreneur your whole career and now you are a founding team member of Harbor Locker, which very exciting company and you've got quite a story behind that.
• 1:46
  But just for our audience, can you tell us what is Harbor Locker?
• 1:50
  Yeah, so Harbor Locker is a public marketplace locker network.
• 1:54
  You may be wondering what that means.
• 1:56
  So if you seen those Amazon lockers around cities where you know you can have people, you can pick up your orders and do returns.
• 2:02
  We built a very similar network around the United States, but it's open up to any merchant or company that can use the lockers for final mile delivery returns or even storage of items in the locker.
• 2:14
  So we have.
• 2:16
  That is the concept.
• 2:17
  We have currently over 500 locations in the United States in about 80 cities.
• 2:23
  And that's what Harbor Lockers is, on demand locker, where people can quickly access the location and exchange items through them.
• 2:31
  Okay, and how did you get into this business?
• 2:35
  How did I get into this?
• 2:36
  Good question.
• 2:37
  So, you know, you mentioned before, I've been an entrepreneur.
• 2:39
  I actually owned a venture studio before with one of my partners.
• 2:43
  We had.
• 2:44
  We're building my whole career.
• 2:45
  I've been building technology and different initiatives with other companies through the venture studio.
• 2:52
  And I actually started a 4PL, whereas a full stack fulfillment company.
• 2:56
  And that really got me more and more into logistics and E comm.
• 3:00
  And came across the arc, the founder of Luxor One.
• 3:05
  When Luxor One was kind of expanding into this new opportunity of putting with more of the idea stages, how do we have lockers be deployed?
• 3:12
  I was looking for my next kind of fun thing that I can take my experience into.
• 3:17
  And this was where we kind of came, joined forces with Luxor1 and started this division called Harbor.
• 3:22
  And initially this was, you know, right during.
• 3:26
  Right.
• 3:26
  Kind of during the speak of COVID You know, this was in 2022.
• 3:32
  Covid was kind of, you know, more and more contactless deliveries are happening, more awareness of fulfillment technology.
• 3:39
  So we thought, hey, this is the perfect time to actually start introducing a public locker in the United States.
• 3:45
  So the way it worked is I started, you know, we started developing a new product to make it easier to deploy lockers around cities, and then started finding more and more partners to work with to be our early
• 3:56
  pilot partners to kind of validate the idea.
• 3:59
  And now we're here in 2025 and it's been fun journey so far, and it's kind of, in my opinion, it's just getting started as well.
• 4:06
  Okay, okay.
• 4:07
  Excellent.
• 4:08
  All right.
• 4:09
  So you've been an entrepreneur your whole, whole career.
• 4:12
  You're looking for your next project.
• 4:17
  You meet up with the founder of Luxor1, and you guys have this idea during COVID and after everything we all went through there, and the rise of contactless delivery and the need for that type of service, and you
• 4:33
  have this idea to build this public locker network.
• 4:37
  Right.
• 4:37
  So when you conceptualize this, you guys say, okay, we're going to do this.
• 4:41
  Like, how do you go about, like, getting.
• 4:43
  Getting something like that started, you know, from the beginning?
• 4:49
  Yeah.
• 4:49
  So getting started.
• 4:50
  Getting started is often the most difficult thing.
• 4:52
  You know, you're buying an idea, but how do you actually get your idea in the real world?
• 4:58
  Fast as you can, because, you know, you spend a lot of time whiteboarding things, thinking these ideas.
• 5:02
  So what we did, you know, it's like, how do we actually build a very early prototype MVP locker solution and get it deployed quickly?
• 5:13
  Six months, you know, a hardware solution with a software solution.
• 5:16
  So what we did is we actually found a little pilot market town outside of Northern California called Chico, California.
• 5:24
  It's near where I'm based.
• 5:25
  We got five lockers.
• 5:27
  We deployed them around the city.
• 5:30
  And this was a small isolated area of under about 100,000 people in the population.
• 5:35
  And that was kind of our test bed, you know, to let us start building the product and actually start getting real world feedback.
• 5:42
  From customers of how they can use the lockers for a variety of use cases.
• 5:46
  So that was our first step is how do we get up something out quick as we can and get it in hand to the customers and start improving, improving, improving on top of it.
• 5:56
  And that was kind of how we got in the initial form.
• 6:00
  And when we did that, one of the big areas with a lot of lockers especially is we need to drive the cost down to build these lockers and also support them.
• 6:11
  You know, historically a lot of smart lockers require to be powered by AC power, meaning to plug them into an actual power plugin to run power.
• 6:21
  A lot of them have kiosk screens where they interacted with the kiosk screen and also a lot of them require Internet.
• 6:28
  So what we did, we built what we call a headless locker where it has, it runs on batteries.
• 6:33
  The batteries last up to two years.
• 6:35
  It has no kiosk screen on it.
• 6:37
  It's all ran and open a mobile API, what we call Harbor Connect.
• 6:42
  And what that let us do is make a true, what we call anywhere locker.
• 6:47
  We can drop them literally anywhere.
• 6:50
  And that's what led us built the framework of actually deploying these lockers quicker without a lot of setup fees to set up and install the locker and also reduce our monthly operating cost of the locker.
• 7:04
  So that was the big thing we had to do at first is really develop this anywhere locker product in the technology and then at the same time getting more and more use cases to be used on the lockers
• 7:18
  as well.
• 7:19
  So it's been quite a journey to get to go through all of it.
• 7:23
  But the thing that we really strive on is being very agile and work with our partners such as some major shipping companies that we work with that use their lockers for drop off and final returns.
• 7:38
  And you know, in being very taking that feedback and, and actually implementing into our product quick as we can.
• 7:44
  So at first when we started we were just an API driven blocker platform.
• 7:49
  So in order to use our solution you had to be a developer, you had to integrate our APIs.
• 7:54
  We had no really turnkey solutions.
• 7:57
  We quickly learned that we need less friction to use our product.
• 8:01
  So we started building more turnkey solutions what we called hardware Pilot app.
• 8:06
  We made a turnkey solution called Harbor Pilot which lets merchants and companies and carriers use our lockers without any integration.
• 8:14
  So they can go to, we set them up on it, they can be ready within minutes and you access a whole locker platform without any integrations.
• 8:22
  And that's what really helped us get the flywheel started more by actually making easier and easier tools for companies to use our lockers on an early pilot model.
• 8:34
  And then some small merchants that use actually use those tools indefinitely.
• 8:38
  But we try to make it easy and easier to access the solution, and that's one of our big things these days, is this letting merchant companies access these lockers fast as they can.
• 8:48
  Just how we made this 15 minute anywhere locker we can set up fast.
• 8:52
  Now we're working on making it easier for companies to tap into the network as well.
• 8:57
  Okay, love that.
• 8:58
  And so much to unpack there.
• 8:59
  And a lot of powerful principles that I want to expand on for the audience there.
• 9:03
  But so you mentioned when you got started, right, you wanted to get something out there as quick as possible, right?
• 9:10
  So you started in your kind of your backyard in California, in a small area, and you put a few lockers and you got them out there right away, right?
• 9:19
  Within a very short period of time.
• 9:22
  So.
• 9:22
  And when you detailed all those improvements you had to make as far as driving the cost down and making them more accessible and making them less friction so people could access them easier, I mean, do you.
• 9:37
  It sounds like, you know, because so many times people wait, they try to get it perfect and it takes forever and then it doesn't end up working out.
• 9:46
  It sounds like you wouldn't have got to that point and made all these iterations if you hadn't just got it out there and it's in perfect form as quick as you can.
• 9:54
  And then you got feedback from the market about what needed to change.
• 9:57
  Is that fair to say?
• 9:59
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:00
  I think there's like one philosophy where if you're not embarrassed by your first product, I mean, your first, like, revision, you should be.
• 10:07
  You launched too late.
• 10:08
  You know, so our first product we had, you know, I was actually on the street standing next to the locker and getting people to use it.
• 10:17
  So the one way we did it is I put Red Bulls in the locker and I bought, went to the the market, loaded the locker up with Red Bulls, and I filled it up with Red Bulls.
• 10:28
  And then we used a mobile app for people to pick up a free Red Bull.
• 10:32
  And I was literally standing in front of the locker and say, hey, you want to try?
• 10:37
  Want a free Red Bull?
• 10:38
  They're like, okay, I'll take a free Red Bull.
• 10:41
  It's like, okay, you need to actually now use the pickup code on this app to open the locker to pick up this Red Bull out of it.
• 10:50
  And.
• 10:51
  And that really just got us more people, like, hey, what is this locker?
• 10:54
  What Wait, you may mean you can pick things up out of the locker wasn't, you know, the Red Bulls is a way to get people started, you know, to use it and get people to understand what a locker
• 11:04
  even is.
• 11:04
  Because in the United States, locker adoption is pretty low unless you live in like an apartment building.
• 11:10
  So yeah, that's how we got out there at first is like.
• 11:13
  Is rolling up our sleeves, giving out free samples and then learning and fixing the variety of issues.
• 11:20
  You know that when there's variety issues is more our API making the events be managed correctly.
• 11:27
  Other issue we had is having people connect to their.
• 11:30
  Because it opens via mobile device, your phone.
• 11:33
  We had an issue where if you have multiple phones connected at exactly the same time, it would cause an error.
• 11:38
  So we had to get that solved if you have multiple people at the same time opening the locker.
• 11:43
  So we, we solve a lot of those issues, you know, just by being out in the field and just talking to our customers.
• 11:48
  But yeah, we would if we.
• 11:50
  These are issues, you know, you could have spent a lot longer in the lab trying to figure out.
• 11:54
  But we also get product validation at the same time.
• 11:58
  Okay.
• 11:59
  All right.
• 12:00
  And so how, how long did it take, you know, from when you first launched in all these iterations.
• 12:07
  Right.
• 12:07
  Because this is about.
• 12:08
  You're about three.
• 12:09
  A little over three years in.
• 12:11
  I mean, how.
• 12:12
  How long do you think it took before you got like a.
• 12:15
  Like or.
• 12:16
  I mean, are you still iterating to this day in terms of.
• 12:19
  Of like trying or like how long.
• 12:21
  Did it take to.
• 12:22
  You really said, wow, we've got really something here that we can really scale and market.
• 12:28
  Yeah, everything takes a lot longer than you expect.
• 12:31
  So that's one thing you learn is, you know, there is opportunities there.
• 12:35
  Some things you see, especially on x or on LinkedIn, you hear people these moonshots where they come out of nowhere and they take off radically.
• 12:45
  Fast growth.
• 12:46
  Most companies take a lot longer than you expect to get the traction you really envision, especially people like me that are highly optimistic about things.
• 12:58
  So.
• 12:59
  So with us is, you know, we took, you know, I would say we are still iterating.
• 13:04
  Iterating.
• 13:05
  That's kind of part of the process.
• 13:06
  You kind of keep improving, improving as you go.
• 13:09
  But you know, one thing we found, you know, especially going into this, we knew we were kind of the first company in the United States deploying public lockers around public spaces.
• 13:19
  So there's still a lot of education in the, you know, to end consumers what they can use A locker for.
• 13:25
  And we're still early on on that journey.
• 13:26
  But we kind of knew that going into that, this, that it is a, you know, this is a market that needs awareness and education made at the same time.
• 13:35
  But we did find early on that our technology can also be used not just for public lockers.
• 13:41
  So, so when you think of public lockers for deliveries, final mile, one thing we found early on is we put one of the lockers in our pilot market in front of a nightclub in Chico and they started using
• 13:53
  the lockers not just for packages, they actually started using for bag storage where people can store their bags in that locker at nighttime because they have a no bag policy when you go into the nightclub.
• 14:06
  So when they go to the security, they say, hey, you can't bring that bag in this club.
• 14:10
  There's a lock, but there's a bag storage locker around the corner where you can pay $5 to use and store your bag in there when you're at the club.
• 14:18
  So this is a college town and people take Uber and they walk there, they absolutely will pay $5 and put it into the locker.
• 14:25
  What that spawned is us to start another product called Drop Locker where we now put our lockers at sporting venues around the United States for clear bag policy.
• 14:36
  So we actually kind of morphed this Chico pilot we found is that, and that's a very scalable business where we actually now have our lockers at sports venues, same technology, instead of being more on the public lockers and
• 14:50
  more bag storage locker called Drop Locker.
• 14:53
  And that is a business unit that we developed and now kind of self sustaining brand that we have.
• 14:58
  And we put them at tons of major stadiums around the United States.
• 15:02
  And that's something we didn't really have intention of doing when we first started this.
• 15:07
  But it's still using the same concept of using our technology.
• 15:11
  But that is actually what we found by using out in the field and actually kind of exceeded some of our expectations as well.
• 15:18
  Wow, that's a great story too because like you said, you didn't plan on it.
• 15:22
  And just that pilot and getting that feedback where people at a nightclub would need to store their bags small spawned a whole other business.
• 15:30
  And then you're able to market that at sporting events and for the clear bag policy and just that, that agility and that, that, that ability to be able to act quickly, right.
• 15:41
  And implement feedback and, and pivot and.
• 15:45
  Go in a new direction.
• 15:46
  Once you see that there's something there, I mean, clearly it's paid off.
• 15:51
  Yeah, it's paid off.
• 15:53
  And, and that's, you know, the kind of the spirit of Harbor.
• 15:56
  We wanted to build it as a technology framework for entrepreneurs to build their business ideas on it.
• 16:03
  So we had this kind of two approaches.
• 16:06
  One is how do we find entrepreneurs to build innovative business ideas on it?
• 16:10
  Just like how the iPhone, when the iPhone came out, people developed their iPhone apps on it.
• 16:16
  Apple really never envisioned, you know, Snapchat, Instagram, all these billion dollar companies got built on top of the app store ecosystem.
• 16:26
  And then yeah, so that's one thing we were always targeting, how we find people to build business ideas on top of our lockers.
• 16:33
  That's one these innovators and entrepreneurs.
• 16:35
  And then we have this other bucket is your more traditional integrations with major shipping carriers to do final mile and first miles through the locker.
• 16:45
  We knew the major carriers is a long lead time for us to integrate into the top three shipping carriers.
• 16:52
  You know, he's going through and working with them, getting all the workflows.
• 16:55
  We knew that was a long process to get them all on board.
• 17:00
  So we spend a lot of our energy at first on actually focus on the innovators and entrepreneurs.
• 17:06
  And that's how like the drop locker kind of became our own product that we developed on top of it.
• 17:11
  But we do have about 30 other companies that have developed other businesses and solutions on top of the locker outside of the major carriers as well.
• 17:20
  So it's been a fun journey in how this has been going and it's always fun to kind of hear and talk to people about all these crazy use cases we use the lockers for.
• 17:31
  Interesting, interesting.
• 17:32
  Okay, I want to go back to something else you said a minute ago where you know, you're naturally optimistic and so many entrepreneurs, you know, we talk to are.
• 17:42
  But like you said, everything takes longer than you expect.
• 17:45
  There's stuff you don't see coming.
• 17:47
  So when you have this idea and this dream and this vision of how this company can take off quickly and you're optimistic and you get out there and then things don't take off as quick and all types of
• 17:59
  unexpected adversity comes your way.
• 18:02
  I mean what, what's the mindset like and how do you kind of sustain yourself through those periods where you think it's going to be, you know, straight up and you see roadblocks and you're having to deal with that.
• 18:17
  Yeah, good question.
• 18:18
  So I think that's a nature.
• 18:21
  So you're highly optimistic.
• 18:23
  You know, is having a great vision of where you're taking is always important.
• 18:30
  So you know, if you look at the today where you are you oh we have this momentum we're doing or the situation.
• 18:37
  But we, you know with us we got early on we implemented the EOS framework into Harbor.
• 18:44
  With the EOS framework that helped us actually define our vision of where we're going.
• 18:49
  We have our three year goal set, you know, in that with that we set objectives on it and then we also have our big, you know, hairy goal that you go for that gets you really excited to go
• 19:00
  out there and actually wake up and get powered on.
• 19:05
  So with that, you know, especially if you're going to start up, a lot of times your goals could be potentially pivoting based on different opportunities that come through that you know, even forecast coming in.
• 19:16
  But your main goal division is what keeps you going.
• 19:18
  So one thing I learned is with us in this harbor and we built it is we kind of went into day one.
• 19:26
  The founder of Luxor1 implemented this on some other organizations he done.
• 19:30
  And that was I would say one of the biggest things that kept us going and kind of keeping going.
• 19:35
  You know what your long term vision is.
• 19:38
  So when things do kind of may take longer, you hit roadblocks, you say hey this is what we're going to.
• 19:42
  You need kind of play the long game where you know that's always difficult especially if you're a startup when you have stakeholders, limited cash flow goals that you need to hit for different milestones.
• 19:57
  Says you know, that's where with us, you know, making sure your whole team, your partners, everyone involved in it have the same vision on it and also making sure you also remain flexible.
• 20:12
  Meaning sometimes your goal you may make for three years from now, you may have to re calibrate how you actually going to hit it and do different objectives.
• 20:22
  That could be, hey, this bag storage business is something we may want to go a little deeper into.
• 20:26
  Even though we didn't go into it initially, that's what we want to do.
• 20:29
  But the market says hey that's something that got, got some legs, let's put some more energy into it.
• 20:36
  Initially we were very, you know, focus on some more logistic carrier opportunities.
• 20:42
  You know those take a long time.
• 20:44
  But now, you know we have now lockers at Waymo, the self driving car company for lost and found.
• 20:50
  We have lockers that where people lose something in self driving car the Waymo puts them inside of a locker and people can pick them up through our locker as well.
• 21:00
  And that's something again another use case that we never really thought of at the beginning you know, but it is, you know, these use cases that keep popping up for these unique opportunities.
• 21:11
  And then we try to be very innovative and technology driven.
• 21:15
  So when someone does come with an idea or problem that we can solve at lockers, how do we respond to it?
• 21:20
  Quickly.
• 21:21
  So to answer your question, I think staying optimistic is most important trait for someone is, you know, people like working with individuals that are optimistic, but you also need balance on your team as well.
• 21:37
  So we also have other team member that we brought in.
• 21:41
  His name's Tad, he works with us on Harbor.
• 21:44
  Tad is, you know, he also keeps things more realistic than me.
• 21:47
  So that's a big thing.
• 21:48
  When you have teams, you need balance within the organization.
• 21:52
  So you have people like me that may be a little more optimistic, but you also need someone checking, balancing you as well.
• 21:58
  So it's always good to have the partner and what you're doing, another team member, they can also kind of look at the pros and cons.
• 22:04
  So it's not just one person.
• 22:06
  Typically, usually have a team of people that can kind of help you balance as well.
• 22:11
  Yeah, that's a great point.
• 22:12
  And those different elements, those different personality types are so important to where, you know, you need that optimistic, that aggressive person.
• 22:20
  But then you also need that element of reality to make sure it doesn't get too, too far out of balance.
• 22:27
  Right, exactly.
• 22:29
  So that says a lot of entrepreneurs are visionaries and that's what makes them a very successful entrepreneur and sometimes take risk and do things that a lot of people won't want to do because it's uncomfortable, high risk of
• 22:44
  failure, but you also get the benefits.
• 22:47
  But a lot of entrepreneurs also have a right hand person that also kind of keeps them balanced as well.
• 22:54
  Okay.
• 22:55
  All right.
• 22:56
  And throughout this whole journey, you know, as far as building and scaling this company, and now you're in, you're in 80 cities, 500 plus locations, continuing to grow.
• 23:07
  What's been, what's been the biggest surprise that you've had?
• 23:13
  The biggest surprise that I had.
• 23:19
  Well, the biggest surprise I'd have is, would have been we've been working with different variety of use cases on the locker.
• 23:30
  So one use case, we're talking to a specialized logistic company and they have customers in the healthcare industry.
• 23:39
  And that's one industry that we didn't really look too much into initially, but they have very unique specialized logistic needs for, for transporting medical tissue.
• 23:51
  So they came to us, hey, we see you can do these locker points, but can they also be used for, you know, in hospitals you see these little drop boxes where people drop things off medical tissue.
• 24:03
  How can you do a more secure asynchronous drop off and pick up a medical tissue and manage the supply chain throughout that journey.
• 24:13
  So that was a very unique situation.
• 24:16
  Like wow.
• 24:17
  We never even thought about medical tissue and how our product can solve it.
• 24:22
  And that was something like surprised me like wow, that is an interesting use case of the locker.
• 24:27
  And our technology checks all the boxes to support it.
• 24:31
  And you know, and that's where we really get excited.
• 24:34
  I get excited about these top working these companies and learning about these very unique use cases of the lockers for that use case.
• 24:44
  And then this other use case that even is interesting is early on partner to that kind of was this bread is baker.
• 24:53
  He's in the Bay area and he has actually mills bread.
• 24:58
  So he's a bread mill where they make flour or bread that you cook.
• 25:02
  And he was on Facebook and WhatsApp selling his bread through the local community there.
• 25:08
  And he would sell it in parking lots around the city.
• 25:13
  So he would go around the city each week.
• 25:16
  He said I'll be at Trader Joe's at 10:00am in San Jose, I'd be at 12:00'.
• 25:22
  Clock, I'll be in Menlo park in front of Whole Foods to pick up your bread flour.
• 25:29
  And then he started using our lockers instead of people him sitting in the parking lot waiting for everyone to meet up with them.
• 25:36
  He'd do the pre orders throughout the week.
• 25:39
  He mills the bread then he just goes and drops them off at lockers around the city.
• 25:42
  And that's another very interesting use case where these local entrepreneur got innovative in finding technology to solve his problem.
• 25:51
  So instead of him spending all day on Saturday waiting for people, now he just goes out and drops them off and he's done with it in one quick in about an hour and a half.
• 26:00
  So those are use cases.
• 26:01
  I get excited is how we work with these local entrepreneurs gets me most excited.
• 26:06
  And also these very unique use cases.
• 26:09
  Okay, wow, interesting.
• 26:11
  And given how far you've come in just the, the first three years or so.
• 26:15
  Like what, what's next for Harbor Locker?
• 26:20
  Well, what's next, you know us just really expanding the locker network here in the United States.
• 26:25
  You know expanding more locations is the biggest initiative and also getting more and more carry integrate.
• 26:32
  You know people can actually use the lockers more and more within local communities for secure package delivery.
• 26:39
  So instead of having packages delivered to your doorstep, if you live in an area where you have a lot of porch piracy how can you have your locker, your packages delivered to that nearby locker, and you pick it
• 26:51
  up for us?
• 26:52
  So that's the big thing for us, is getting more and more lockers delivered, more and more people using the lockers for secure delivery packages to really fight that porch piracy problem in the United States and add more locker
• 27:07
  locations.
• 27:09
  Okay.
• 27:10
  All right.
• 27:10
  And, Van, if people want to get in touch with you, learn more about what you're doing at Harbor Locker or reach out for any other reason, what's the best way people can find you online?
• 27:20
  Yeah, the best way, guys, you go to our website, harbor locker lockers.com there, you can kind of even see our locations.
• 27:27
  If you go there, there's a little tab says locations.
• 27:29
  You can see a location map, see all the locker locations there.
• 27:33
  We do have an app marketplace where you can see the different providers and use cases on the locker.
• 27:39
  Feel free to reach out to me to direct.
• 27:41
  My email is vanharborlockers.com where you can shoot me an email.
• 27:46
  And also if you're on LinkedIn, you can connect with me there.
• 27:49
  So you can find me a lot of variety of ways through those channels.
• 27:53
  Okay.
• 27:54
  And we'll link all that in the show Notes for everyone.
• 27:56
  All right, well, Van, thank you so much for taking the time to be here and sharing all this valuable wisdom from your journey with our audience.
• 28:03
  We greatly appreciate it.
• 28:04
  Thank you for having me on.
• 28:05
  Have a good one.