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Clayface - Kulture Meltdown · Movie Meltdown

• 0:44
  Speaker 1: What do you want, Mr. Hagen? I want my life back.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: He stole everything from me. You okay? I stole it.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I have no idea what side effects she'll have or
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: how to treat them. We're in unknown territory. All you've
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: done is make me better. Clayface, October 23rd.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Hello everyone and welcome to Culture Meltdown, a crossover show
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: between my show, The Culture Cast, and Brian Renfro's show,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Movie Meltdown. I am Chris Stasche, one of your hosts,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and I am joined, as always, by Brian Renfro.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: I am Vengeance. I am the Knight. Hey, I'm Brian.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: And I'm a big puddle of man-meat. On this episode
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: of Culture Meltdown, we're talking about 2026's body whore dcu
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: third entry that this one's not supergirl we promise though
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: if you want to hear my thoughts on that mike
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: and i covered it on the show that is now
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: change over a crossover show between his show and my
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: show where we also talk about new movies uh we
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: talked about that earlier this year spoilers wasn't good brian
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: i heard you loved it yeah i was like one
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: of the first things we talked about when you came
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: onto the network was like yeah mike and i cover
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: new movies like supergirl it's not good brian did you
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: see supergirl No, I.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Knew better than that. Okay, good for you. I was like,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: and I'm not even blaming her. Because again, most of
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: your dorky guys are just like, it becomes a girl thing.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, nah, she's fine. Like, for the minute
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and a half I saw her in the last movie,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: she's fine. But I will say, if anything kind of
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: took me down in my anticipation of it, I was like, ugh,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: why is Aquaman in this movie? I'm just kind of
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: sick of him in general. I was like, Lobo, Aquaman, whatever.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: You're the same dude all the time. And nobody thinks
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: you're cooler than you do, buddy. So just settle down.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that just kind of killed it a little
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: bit for me. I was just not looking forward to
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: watching him think he was cool and ride a motorcycle
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: or whatever the hell he did. I don't know. That's
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: But yeah, this movie is technically the third entry into
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: the burgeoning DCU. I say burgeoning because... Despite their best attempts,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: they're doing their best to try and sink it before
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: it becomes an actual thing. So, yeah, we're going to
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: be talking about 2026's Clayface. It is a film directed
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: by James Watkins. Boy, the film is about Matt Hagen,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: a rising Gotham actor who sleeps with the girlfriend of
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: a crime boss, Marcos Zabo. Zabo's men cut up his face,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: and his career collapses.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Caitlin Kaur's experimental treatment rebuilds his face, but it won't hold,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: and Hagen learns he can reshape himself into other people.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Then he takes his revenge, dot, dot, dot. This is
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: a rated R superhero question mark movie. It did come
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: out October 23rd, 2026. At a glance, the film is
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: directed by James Watkins on a screenplay by, yeah, Mike
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Flanagan and Hossein Amini, though Mike Flanagan has said he
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: hasn't seen this movie. He's probably not going to. One
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: of the other producers is Matt Reeves, James Gunn. Yes,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Matt Reeves, the director of Batman and The film, however,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: does star Tom Rhys-Harris.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Tom Rhys-Harris.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: That is definitely not the name of an American actor,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: though he does a great American accent. He plays Matt Hagen, a.k.a. Clayface,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Naomi Ackie, Max Minghella, David Denik, Eddie Marzen. And yeah,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: that's right, folks. You saw Aaron Paul in this movie,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: even though people initially were like, that's not a thing.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: He's not in this movie. No, turns out he is,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: in fact, in this movie. We will be spoiling this
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: film if you can't tell. Brian, before we talk spoilers,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: worth going to the theaters and spending your hard-earned money
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: on Clayface?
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Yes. If you are prepared for something that is kind
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: of different from what you've been getting from, I would say,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: just about all of your superhero-type movies in the last
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: 20 years. It's a very different approach. And I know
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: they've said many times on both sides of the DC
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: and Marvel fence there that they're going to this one's different.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: This one's going to be a blah, blah, whatever. But
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: like this time, it's pretty different. I have to say
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: it still sort of works as a superhero adjacent movie,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: but it's doing its own thing and is pretty entertaining
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: in the process. Yeah, I would say if you're a
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: fan of.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Superhero movies go check this out but i also think
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: this is not a movie for all fans of superhero
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: movies because this is a very like you said it
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: is very different but i don't think i don't think
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: the people that went and saw supergirl are going to
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: be lining up for this movie maybe i'm wrong and
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: to be fair nobody lined up for supergirl apparently so
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: no it seems like more people were going to see
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: this than even the people that went to see supergirl
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: i will say yes.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Only based on the fact that, like.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: You said, it is not your typical thing. If it
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: were your typical thing, I would be less inclined. But
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed it for the most part. I think there's
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: things that we will obviously kind of delve into and
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: get to. But I think overall, it's a pretty interesting movie.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: So from here on out, we're talking spoilers. So first
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: things first, spoilers out in the open. Brian, what did
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: you think of Clayface? it was way more body horror
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: than I expected.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Like I knew that's what they were going for, but
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: then getting in there, I'm like, Oh no, this, this
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: is full on body horror. Like this is definitely, and
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: it's interesting because I just got around to watching the
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: substance recently, which is so much body horror. So like
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: watching this, I was like, this is not far behind.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Like it's not quite that crazy and over the top,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: but it is definitely in the same ballpark as the substance. So,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: That was, I think, my thing that I wasn't quite
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: prepared for. I knew that's what they were going to do.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: But yeah, they full on were just like, well, this
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: is what we're doing. So let's lean into the body
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: horror aspect. And that's, I think, definitely what sort of
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: is the takeaway from it more than anything. It is
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: definitely kind of horror-esque, but it is, if anything, body
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: horror more than anything. Would you laugh if I said
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: it's not body horror enough? I mean, it depends on
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: what you're looking for.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like it really is body horror enough,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: and I think that's because it's a superhero movie.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that that's the thing that holds it back, right?
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like it's the thing that holds
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: it back.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: And I would probably have liked this movie more if
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: it didn't have the superhero part, but then it would just.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Be The Fly. Which is, yeah, it's a lot of that.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Or Videodrome, or any number of body horror movies. And
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I don't think it has enough of a hook on
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: its own. Like I don't tie.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Into what it would become. You just be like, wait,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: why am I watching this guy?
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Well, and what it has become, because to be fair,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: creature commandos is technically set after this in terms of
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: the chronology. And so it being set after this chronologically
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: means that, you know, Clayface is already in that series.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: And so hold on one second, Brian, I just need
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: a second. It doesn't have a hook on its own enough.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Not really.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say like it's baby's first... Baby's first
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: body horror. It is baby's first body horror because I
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: think the superhero of it all just cuts away a
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: movie that I think is much more interesting, but then
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: is a movie that has nothing to do with this.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: It's just a movie. It's just The Fly. It's just Videodrome.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: It's just The Substance. It's any number of great body
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: horror movies that are just body horror movies. They don't
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: need anything else, but that's also because the people writing
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: them I don't know.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Like, I don't want to drag the.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Person who came in to take Flanagan's script because I
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: think the script for the movie is fine. But Hossein
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Amini is not Mike Flanagan.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: No.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: And I wonder what this film would have been if
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: it had been a Mike Flanagan thing all the way
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: through from director to screenplay to casting and everything else.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I don't think the casting is poor. I think the
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: casting in this movie is great. I think Tom Reese
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Harry's is great as a version of Clayface. You know,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I've seen people saying, you know, it's not Clayface like
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: this or it's not Basil Carlo.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Like, who cares? Like, it's this is a film version
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: of the character like that. It is what it is.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Like, take it with, you know, it's it's also it's
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: like this weird nano cell.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I don't. Yes. Science. Science.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Very wonky and dumb science. Like it's not intelligible science
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't need to be.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not complaining about it not being intelligible. Like that's. No,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: it works. It does its job. Like that's what it's
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: there for is when you have dumb questions about the
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: biology part of it, you throw in nanobot technology and
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: then that there, that takes care of your questions because
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: now none of this makes any sense, but it does
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: whatever we say that it does. So shut up and
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: watch this movie. Like that's how it works. And I'm
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: fine with that. I'm like, good. All right. You came
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: up with an excuse. That's all I need. Well, and again,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: it is a superhero movie.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: So I'm not needing it to be Zack Snyder levels like, well, these.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Are metahumans and let me explain it away. And let's
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: make sure everything makes sense.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: And let's make sure everybody understands that we're taking this seriously,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: because if we're not taking this seriously, then these movies
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: can't be serious. It's like, no, these movies can be
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: serious and fun at the same time. I think my issue,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: to speak to the, I don't think this is body
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: horror enough, most of the kills are not that exciting. Which,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: if that's what this movie is then going to kind
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: of become... the kills at the end of the movie
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: are interesting. And then there's like one other kill that's
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: kind of fun, but it doesn't even take advantage of
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: the body horror. It's just, it's like, it wants to
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: be an R rated movie, but it doesn't want to
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: commit to what that means. Because again, it's a superhero thing.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: And I just, I don't like that. I just, that's
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: not fair. Like that's not the, that's not what I
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: was being sold.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I guess like it, it, it, it ends up selling
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: itself more as a, superhero movie less a body horror
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: movie and i feel like that's a missed opportunity at
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: this point in time.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: See it's funny because i didn't really even think of
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: it as a superhero movie it's definitely an origin story
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: and it's an again as i said earlier it's superhero
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: adjacent like it definitely is in gotham you feel the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: gotham of it you feel them like really trying to
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: put together this the city that we haven't seen much
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: of in this new dcu or at all So like
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: it's kind of giving us a taste of where they're
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: probably going to want to go in future movies that
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: may or may not have some dude in a cow.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: But they're building up the overall world. But to me,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: it still didn't even feel like a superhero movie the
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: way that we're used to them anymore. It's just like
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: a side story that also kind of takes place in
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: the same universe. But it really doesn't even connect within
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: this movie. It really doesn't connect to the other stuff
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: at all. So it's just sort of, again, side story.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: superhero adjacent but really didn't even feel like a superhero
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: movie to me.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: It didn't feel like a superhero movie i guess my
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: concern with the way the movie was written is it
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: feels like the punches that were pulled was because the
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: expectation was the people who were going to see it
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: were expecting a superhero.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Movie even though they said it's not a superhero movie
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: over and over again part.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Of the movie just doesn't feel like it was able
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: to pull the trigger hard enough to on the body horror,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: because I think they thought maybe the audience would be
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: a tad too squeamish, uh, which I, you know, the
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: substance didn't have any of that together. Didn't have any
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: of that to speak to the last two kind of
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: big body horror movies that have come out in the
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: last like couple years.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those are definitely not geared towards any crossover audience. No,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: they're like, who's that appealing to? Yeah, you've got to
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: be a grown up to even want to go see
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: either of those movies versus this definitely could appeal to
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: a random 13 year old that sneaks into the theater.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: But it's still the Friday night crowd, you don't think? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: I do. And again, I that's why I'm like, I'm
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: kind of surprised it did as well as it did.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Like it had a good opening weekend. So I think
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: it it did manage to pull in, I'm guessing, the
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: fanboy crowd, because like everybody who is like definitely hardcore
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: in the Batman world is like they usually are really
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: into the villains anyway. So I think anybody who's even
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: kind of curious about that aspect of it must have
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: shown up because it had good numbers. But I think
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: it was also enough of a horror movie within the
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: trailer that it might have won over a few people
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: that were like, I don't know, maybe we'll go see
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: that this weekend. So like, I think it had a
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: little crossover and that's why it ended up having a
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: really good opening weekend, especially for a lesser known superhero movie,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: if we're calling it that. And especially for DCU, which
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: is very hit and miss, not even just currently. Overall,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: DC is very hit and miss. So, yeah, I think
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: that's probably why is it pulled in the hardcore comic
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: fans and then it pulled in a decent amount of
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: crossover with the horror of it all. What is your
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: read on the DCU as it stands right now? I
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: think they don't even know what it is because even
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: within the DC of it, we're still split. Because the
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Batman is still its own separate thing. And it's still coming.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: We're still waiting for the second part because it keeps
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: getting pushed back. But it's not at all attached to
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: anything to do with any of these last three movies.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: And even this one kind of doesn't count officially. Before
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: we got going, I was looking over stuff and there's
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: a quote from James Gunn that specifically kind of is...
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: telling people enjoy this for what it is, but at
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: the same time, giving him a pass to be like this,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: this exists in its own universe, essentially. So basically go
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: enjoy this movie as its own thing. Don't try to
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: worry about how it ties to other stuff. Just enjoy
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: this movie for the horror movie that it is. But
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's also leaving him that back door
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: there to be like, if we want to, if it,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: if it does well and we want to make use
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: of this Gotham, if we want to make use of
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: this villain somewhere down the line, then we can, if
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: this thing tanks, I can be like, Nope, separate universe.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: We're good. So I think even built into the DCU
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: of it all, they're already planning to do whatever they want,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: depending on how popular it is. So they've given themselves
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: an out even within that, not to mention the fact
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: they're already split within their own world, having a, a
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: leftover in-between version that still doesn't fit. It's like, we
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: already killed the old, old version that was like, woo,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: back two years ago. And now there's another one kind
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: of in-between that hit at that same time that's been
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: on hold for that long. And then there's this new
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: thing that's kind of a whole new start, except not really,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: but kind of. So DC is very confusing. It's a
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: whole new thing other than Peacemaker only. Yeah, really? How
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: does that factor in now?
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I guess Peacemaker traveled through the multiverse in his show
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: and ended up, I don't know.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know because I didn't watch it.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And I watched the first season and I watched the
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: first season because it was something that was very different
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: from all the Zack Snyder serious nonsense.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: And that's the thing for me. It's like, you know,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I know. One of the most.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Negative reviews I have on iTunes is because I didn't
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: like Zack Snyder's Justice League. Like, I'm sorry I didn't
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: like a movie that I didn't think was very good.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: What do you want me to do? Tell you what
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: you want to hear just because that's what you want
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: to hear. Like, I've never understood people getting upset at
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: someone else's opinion. I'm not trying to say it's fact.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: if you're trying to tell me that it's fact that
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: it's a good movie, that's your opinion.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: That's not a fact.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Like you can tell me objectively, there are parts of
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: the movie that work or certain shots or this, that,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: and something else, but like part of like, Oh, well,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: this is a, my favorite movie and I love it.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: And it's so great. Like, do you know how much
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: of that is subjective? What you just said? Like, do
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: you even care?
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: And it's, it's really irritating for me because stuff like
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: fanboy is like fanboy fanboying and fanboy isms and and
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: i would say you know um you know the stan
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: culture is just it's so exhausting because you know what
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: like i don't like anything that much anymore because of
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: this kind of like nonsense and like genuinely it's just nonsense.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: It's like really dumb behavior surrounding like things that are
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: made for kids that adults are taking seriously because if
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: they just acknowledge it's fun, that somehow diminishes what it is.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but Batman and Superman, it's like all very silly.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: And when they elevate it and make it serious, great.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: And when it works, awesome. But it's a guy running
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: around in a bat costume. It just, it's inherently goofy.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Like it's, And I don't know, like they have such
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: a hard time with that. You know, it's the idea
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: of like, you know, what's the, apparently the worst thing
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: you can do is call Donald Trump gay or make
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: jokes about him loving other men's asses because all of
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: a sudden they all start freaking out. It's like the
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: worst thing you could do is call someone like that
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: gay because the first thing that they're going to do
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: is be like, no, no, it's the worst thing.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: And it's like, that's the same thing here.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: It's like the worst thing you could do for a
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: DCU movie or a DCEU movie, the.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Stuff that came before this was, say it was bad
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: or say Zack Snyder didn't know what he was doing.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And it's like, well, you've invalidated your opinion immediately. It's like,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Oh my, whatever. Fine.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: It's, there's a level of immaturity surrounding it. That's hard
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: for me to deal with anymore. And I, you know,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I dealt with it because, you know, we had to
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: watch that fucking Zack Snyder justice league movie.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And I watched it.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I sat and watched the whole three hour thing. Like
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: I just, I, like, what do you want? Like, if
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: it's not for me, it's not for me. Like, I just,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't know what you want. And that's
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: my whole issue with a lot of these things. Like,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know what people want from me as someone
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: who watches film. I'm not going to lie to you
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: because you want me to say, I liked this movie.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: So I've been called a contrarian in the past about things.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: And it's like, I'm not a contrarian. Like I'm not
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: a contrarian. What I am is honest about my feelings
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: on movies. And if you want to like something cool, like,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: you know, I, I feel so much like the DCEU,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: so much of the groundswell and like argument and conversation
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: about it was about something that was completely unimportant, which
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: was Zack Snyder's involvement. Those movies weren't good. Zack Snyder's
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: involvement doesn't matter. Like some of those movies weren't even
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: directed by him. Like David F Sandberg directed some of
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: those movies. Like some of those movies were not like direct,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: you know, some of those movies directed by James Wan
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: for fuck's sake. Like not everything was a Zack Snyder thing.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: They had similar tones, but I appreciate that this movie
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel like Supergirl. I appreciate that this movie doesn't
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: feel like Superman. However, that does not excuse it for
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: not doing more with a, and like you said, a
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: big budget DC horror movie.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Like that's not a thing. Yeah. I mean, they haven't
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: done anything like this really. They barely would go into
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: other areas. Like at least we got a little of
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: that in the Marvel movie.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Werewolf at night is a fucking black and white thing
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: on you know on hulu or whatever like it's not
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: even a movie they it's you know ghettoized and thrown
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: on dumped on streaming at least this movie came out in.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Theaters and i'm i mean i i definitely have gone
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: on record on many many occasions if you if you
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: want to hear people talk smack about zack snyder yeah
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: you can go back i've got two different episodes of
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the rebel moon that i just i have a lot
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: of problems with them And that's just not, that's him
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: as a filmmaker. Like, and it's not, I'm not just
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: trying to trash him for the sake of trashing him.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Like I legitimately have issues with some of the stuff
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: that he does along the way. And I have no
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: problem bringing them up as I get into it. But again,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: much like you, I don't try to just bad mouth
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: things for the sake of it. Like kind of the opposite.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: I want to go in liking these things. Like I
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: want to enjoy myself watching movies and Try to as
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: much as I can. But I also try specifically once
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: I get here, once I get in the realm where
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: we sit around and talk about things for hours on
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: end anyway, it's like, why wouldn't you just address the
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: things that you want to talk about? So I then
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: will bring up kind of both sides of it. And
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: within the episodes, a lot of times I will even.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Throw the other side out there. If I don't feel
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: that way that much, I'll still be like, well, what
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: about this side of the argument? You know, it's like
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: you can play devil's advocate just to have something fun
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: to talk about. Like, I feel like that's the point
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: of these. People just don't want to even listen to
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: a different opinion than theirs is part of the problem,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like. Whereas I enjoy hearing other people's take
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: on it, even if I disagree with it. As long
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: as everybody's cool and civil about it, like, it's okay
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: to have differing opinions. That's fine. Like what you want.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: If you want to like those Zack Snyder movies, be
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: my guest. That is literally your prerogative.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: My lacking of liking it should not affect your ability
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: to like it at all. Period. And you know what?
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: They're not for me.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I don't need to understand why Superman blew up a
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: building or didn't or whatever.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: I just.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Grimdark and serious and unfun. If that's your thing, cool.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: If that's your thing, cool. I.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: whatever. You probably don't like the things that I like anyways.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: So what does it matter?
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Like we, our paths don't really cross in terms of our,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: our film likes and dislikes. That's, you know, that tends
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: to kind of always be the case with stuff like this.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Like this is so distinctly and uniquely its own thing
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: that I kind of am just fine with it being
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: a thing. I'm not, I don't vibe with people on,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't vibe with it. You don't vibe
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: with me. whatever, like, you know, they're probably, they probably
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: gave up on DC other than being absolutely convinced that
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Zack Snyder's coming back, which is a thing. I mean, genuinely,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: there's still corners of the internet, large corners of Twitter
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: that still believe Zack Snyder's going to get rehired by
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: whoever's in charge now. David, I mean, David Ellison, depending
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: on how things go, he could, like we've seen them
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: make that kind of desperate move. So like if James
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: Gunn stuff tanked right out.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Of the gate, which arguably one of them did, like
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a year or two to be fair it
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: wasn't james gunn's thing to be fair well no i
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: was saying him taking over the whole i know which
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: is why that's fair that's the bigger issue yeah that's
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the bigger picture so if like his first two out
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: of the gate both tanks they'd be like whoa hey
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: we gotta get tech back you know that would have
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: definitely been one of it would have been on the
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: table is he a big enough is is what the
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: success that he did enough really I mean, I feel
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: like he brought just as much complaint with him as
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: he did success. So like it was never an out
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and out success because from day one, people were just like, wait,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: what is he doing? So I feel like he had
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: just as many excuses for people that didn't enjoy what
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: he was doing. So I don't know. Like, again, like
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: it if you want to like it. I don't care.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: But I just thought it was such a weird direction
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to take Superman. Like I didn't have a problem with
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: the Batman version of him being dark and moody because
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: that is Batman. Like it's weird if you try to,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: unless you're doing Adam West, like it's weird to take
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Batman anywhere else. So like that worked again, not great,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: but like that end of it felt okay-ish in the
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Zack Snyder versions. It wasn't that far off from what
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: we would normally expect from anybody dealing with Batman, but Yeah,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the Superman of it was just always so wrong. Like,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: it just felt off in a way that didn't make
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: sense to me. But I'm not saying it's not open
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: to other interpretations. I'm fine with that. I just didn't,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: you know, gel with that one myself. But, like, I'm
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: fine with somebody else taking on Superman and trying to
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: do something interesting with it. It's just that one went
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: a weird direction that I just didn't click with.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I don't think Zack Snyder understands how to have fun
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: as a director.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Right. I just don't. I don't get it. I don't
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: get what his appeal is.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: I don't understand what the people who watch him and
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: defend him are defending other than just grim, dark and
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: serious and like.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Edgy, like bro films. It's very bro. That's the thing.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: It's very bro. And I'm like, does this have a
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: place in any of this? No, it really doesn't. I
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: will say as much as I did not I had
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: so many problems with both of the Rebel Moon. And again,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: it's all just clunky storytelling. It's all just almost from
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: the writing. He has a visual aspect. I think it's
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: equally as much computer as it is filmmaking now. But whatever,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: that's a lot of filmmakers. So I don't throw that
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: out as a problem, essentially. It's so much of the filmmaking, writing,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: storytelling part of it that I have issues with. But
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I will say when he does something dumb and it's
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: supposed to be dumb and you're allowed to enjoy it
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and have fun, I'm okay with it because I've watched
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: that Army of the Dead at least twice now. And
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I still have problems with it, but it is way
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: more fun. And I will probably revisit it at some
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: point again in the future because it is a dumb movie.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: But I feel like it's almost aware of how dumb
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: it is. And it lets you just sort of sit
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: back and turn your brain off and enjoy this movie
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: for an hour and a half or whatever it is. Again,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I don't hate him across the board. I've watched that
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: one several times now. It's got his moments that are
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: very entertaining.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: When I think of Zack Snyder, I just think of
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: people that are trying to legitimize his movies.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I'm like, can't they just be fun? Why can't we just,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: it's just a fucking stupid movie. Like, why does it
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: have to be something like, oh, this is a serious thing.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Look at this. Look at the internal struggle of Superman
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and his dad. Like, who gives a shit? And you
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: know what?
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: No offense, Zack Snyder, but you're not the person I'm
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: going to to have like a deep emotional conversation.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Like, you're not, you're not the guy.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Like, don't get anything twisted. Like, even if you think
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: you're the guy, you're not the guy. I promise you're
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: not the guy. Like you're not that guy and you'll
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: never be that guy because the other people do that better.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Like you're a director and you, like you said, Brian,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: you have an eye for the visuals.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: He does. What's wrong with that? Like, what's wrong with that? Like, why,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: why can't that be enough? Like you don't need to
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: keep embarrassing yourself with your photography or something. And like,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: just let somebody else definitely be the screenwriter, but maybe
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: even be the director. And like, you just focus on
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: making cool visuals and setting stuff up and doing the
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: lighting or computer versions of the lighting or whatever you do.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Success is diminished because I'm not the one in control
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: of everything.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And yeah, that's the, I think that's the problem. He
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: wants it to be Zack Snyder's vision. And like, even
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: when he's doing stuff that's super unoriginal, again, I'm back
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: to just talking smack about it. Broadly everything. But I
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: was just like, but I mean, those Rebel Moon are
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: just so much Star Wars ripoffs. And like, he knows
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: it too. Like he pitched it as a Star Wars movie,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: but then like it didn't happen. So he did it. Fine.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I'm taking my toys over to Netflix and we're going
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: to make our own movie. Now I'm just saying everything
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I said on that episode. But again, he can do
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: that stuff. And there are moments of it that are
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: well done. But there's just so much of it that's
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: just him just trying to be other things that he
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: does not as impressive as the originals that he's stealing from. So, again,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of directors do that. I get it. But
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: it just doesn't make him a visionary director that I
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: think he feels like he is or wants to be
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: seen as. I never got the sense that Michael Bay
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: thought he was a visionary. I think that.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: That's my problem with Zack Snyder is he somewhere along
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: the lines got the sense that he was somehow better
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: at doing what he did than anybody else was. And
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: he is not better at using slow-mo than the Wachowskis.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: And he's definitely not better than, I would say, the
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: entire Southeast Asian subcontinent of India when it comes to
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: making film using slow-mo.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Zack Snyder should watch one Indian film.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: And he'd understand how to use slow-mo much more appropriately
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: than he's ever used it in any of his films.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: And I would, you know, for as much issue as
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I had with Michael Bay, he is a much more
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: competent filmmaker than Zack Snyder is. And Michael Bay, I think,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: understands his place in the world. Zack Snyder, because of
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: the incessant fanboyism of those bozos, Zack Snyder, Snyderverse, like
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: release the Snyder Cut people. They're the ones I ultimately
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: have the problem with. Like, they're the ones, they're the
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: vocal demons. dipshits on the internet who took it upon
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: themselves to get a movie released that was not finished.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: 30 million dollars to be paid to finish something does
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: not mean it's finished does not mean anything like that
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: means it was an unfinished film that cost the price
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: of like five other films to finish so you bullied
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: a studio into giving someone who's a complete clown money
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: to finish a movie that nobody asked for Does it
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: make you feel good?
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: They didn't do anything with it.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: And it actually further nailed coffins, nailed nails into the
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: coffin of DC.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: So good. Good. Thank you. Thank you for, frankly, doing
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: what none of us else could, which is make them...
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I do feel like he got caught up in all
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: of that. Well, it goes to your head. You know
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: people like this. People like this are fucking let it
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: go to their head.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: And if we're throwing Michael Bay in there, who, again,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of issues with what he does
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: as a filmmaker, but I feel like he also doesn't care.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: He could care less. He's like, I'm going to make
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: my movie the way I want to make it, and
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: who cares? Exactly. Where I feel like Zach gets all
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: caught up in the fanboyism about him. Whereas Michael Bay
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: is like, whatever.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: It's that validation. It's those people validating him. And it's like,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: you know, it's the same thing with Chris Nolan. Like
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: he wants to be validated by real film goers who
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: will go to his movies and IMAX and only in film.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Like, wow. I guarantee you. Eventually he got his. I
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: hate to tell you. I mean, he got his, but
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: you know what?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: If those are the people that are your fans, trust me,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: you can fucking have them. They watch movies that are
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: very much barely elevated, and boy, they feel like they're
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: the smartest people in the room because a movie made
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: them watch a story that's been around since thousands of
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: years before any of.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Us were fucking born.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Like it's very much like Chris Nolan and Zack Snyder
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: on this. Like I'm self-important, my fans, not the fans,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: but my fans have made me out to be something
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: better than everybody else. And, and not only that, like
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: I bought into it and I be careful buying into
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: your own brand of bullshit because at some point I
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: There is not going to be anybody left new to
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: fucking buy in and everybody else is just going to
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: start dying off. And that's how you get all of
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: these niche communities that exist. And maybe his community will
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: start out a little bit bigger, but by the end
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: of it, it'll.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Be just as small. It'll be zero, just like all
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: these other communities where the people eventually are all gone.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Because you know what?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Zack Snyder is not someone who I think people are
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: going to care about 20, 30 years from now. We're
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: living in it, but we're only seeing this the way
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: we're seeing it now. We're not seeing it 20 years
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: from now where I think the world has changed their
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: opinion on Zack Snyder broadly.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I'm not trying to be a dick.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: I just don't put that much effort into worrying about
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: him anymore.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. There was a time where it
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: really dominated conversations. on like the internet and it's like
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: so irritating that now he's like a non-issue and like
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: he should have just been a non-issue the moment they
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: took the DC away EU away from him the moment
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: they took Justice League away from him that he should
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: have been a non-issue because he's been a non-issue since
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: they took the Justice League away from him that's the
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: fucking craziest part is he's been a non-issue since like
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: 2018 And yeah, sure, the blip of the Snyder Cut
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: getting released exists out there.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: But guess what?
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: It got released and did nothing. It didn't prove anybody anything.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: It didn't make anybody anything. It definitely didn't make HBO
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: any fucking money.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: All it did was lose them money. That's the thing.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: This movie at least made them money. You know, not
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of money, but it did make them money.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: We can say that much at least. And compared to
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: what it was made for.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: This is a minimal budget compared to any of those
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: other superhero movies.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the minimal budget of this movie factors
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: into the fact that it didn't have enough money behind
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: it to really have a practical effect kind of extravaganza
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: or CGI effect extravaganza that this film genuinely needs. This
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: film needs that because it... What are we doing here?
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I want so badly... a film that does this kind
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: of story right and this film gets i think like
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: two-thirds of the way there but you can definitely tell
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: again to go back to the writing of this you
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: can tell that this film is written by two different people.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Right it's not it's not.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Just me right it definitely feels like it was written
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: by two different people there are parts of this movie
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: that are drastically different from one another And parts of
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: this movie that feel like tacked on, you know, to
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: say that this is a superhero movie, the Gotham of
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: it all feels like lip service.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: They're just like, oh, it takes place in Gotham. Like, okay.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: I think my issue is more of, and this, I
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: was going to ask you what your thoughts on this
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: was in general, but also it probably applies to a
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: lot of these because we have, in the last several years,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: had a lot of these offshoot, villain movies and we
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: we get these people that are like they keep making them.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: How many have there been now what is there a
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: madam webb morbius craven i mean.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Even it's something as big as joker really i mean
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: we've had all of these so my question is with
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: all of them but even with this one which i
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: actually liked but is it necessary Uh, is it necessary?
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: but it's sterile and I like the taste. Uh, I
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: would say broadly, none.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Of these films have been necessary.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: You know, that's, that's the funny part. Like I, I,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I ask about the, uh, those fucking Andrew Garfield, Spider-Man
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: movies were those necessary. Like it's not for me, but no.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And then, and then, and I would say the same
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: thing about this movie.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Like the, the, This movie exists for what reason? Was
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: it to make money? Was it to tell us, tell,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: tell a kind of, you know, not every brushstroke painted
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: on a canvas is going to be a broad one.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's going to be fine in the corner and
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: you're working on the small details. That's the way I
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: view this movie. It helps round out the picture of
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: the world that is the DCU that they're building. And,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: you know, the Lanterns TV show, I think, is probably
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: more in common with this than anything else does that's
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: come out so far. Maybe Creature Commandos, but that's like
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: a cartoon. So it's weird in and of itself. Like
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: the the Lantern TV show is probably the closest because
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: it's like a true detective adjacent show. This tone of
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: this movie is so bizarre because again like it it
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: knows it it's almost like it knows it's a super
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: it's in a superhero universe because you know at some
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: point we should have just had him look at the
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: screen and be like man it's gonna be a real
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: pain in the ass if i have to fight somebody
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: with these powers huh because you can see him realizing
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: in real time that he has this ability all of
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: a sudden that he can heal like wolverine He can
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: transform into other people visually like Mystique. You know, it's
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: like there are things in this movie that I've seen
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: in other things that I'm like, oh, they're setting this
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: up for something else.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Like it's not just this movie.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: And there's parts, again, of this movie that are very
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: clearly like I know that they said like, well, it's
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: a superhero movie of a different kind, but not really.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Like we haven't really seen Gotham yet in the DCU.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: So this is it for like, I mean, like we've
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: seen Batman, the Batman as in the Robert Pattinson Batman,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: but that's not part of this.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Like this is the first we're seeing of Gotham in DCU.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: And if this is where they're going with it, I
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: think that's a shame because they don't capitalize on it
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: here at all. Almost like this wasn't really a superhero movie. Like, Again,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: I come back to it.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: That was my takeaway. Right, exactly. I don't feel like
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: it is. No, it's not.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And I want to talk with you about this before
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: we kind of continue talking about the movie proper. The
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Mike Flanagan of it all. I wish this had just
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: been a Mike Flanagan thing from the start. It's really
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: a shame that Mike Flanagan is one of those people
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: that spread himself way too thin.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Because he does have a ton of stuff in the
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: works and has already knocked out so much in the
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: last several years.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And this fell off the wagon. I mean, literally, this
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: fell off the wagon because it was this and Carrie
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: and what's... And.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: There's one other thing. I mean, it's the Exorcist movie.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: It's those three things that literally prevent this movie from
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: having been a Mike Flanagan thing.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: And I think that they should have waited.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: They genuinely should have waited for this to just be
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: a Mike Flanagan thing and have him be involved in
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: a way that is substantive because the parts of this
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: movie that work feel like they're Mike Flanagan adjacent. The
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: parts of this movie that don't work feel like they're
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: The other writer. And again, I don't want to keep
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: dragging this other writer, but I know what Mike Flanagan's
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: level of quality is. And Hossein Amini is just not
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: bringing that same level of quality at all.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: When I wonder if it was just if how much
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: of that was studio versus Mike Flanagan and how much
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: was just them. Or him just being like, well, I'm
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: just tired of waiting because looking back at the history
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: on this, this started years ago. 2021. And was going
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: to be part of the Batman world originally and like
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: got bounced around and pushed back. Would it have been
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: DCEU at the time? I mean, maybe coming out of that,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: maybe they knew that was already coming to an end.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Maybe this was always supposed to be like a standalone thing, right?
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Like probably, but I heard they were setting it up
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: for this to be a villain that showed up in
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: the second, the Batman movie, which we still haven't gotten yet, but,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: and we may never get now because Matt, matt reeves
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: has stepped away now at this point in time so
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that was originally a part of the plan in the
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: very early gray area of them trying to figure out
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: what to do with this so i mean you you
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: can tell right there that like it it's something that
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: i guess they were sick of waiting like we got
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: to get this out at some point so when are
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: we going to do it even to the point of
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: okay fine we'll just get a different director and like
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: we'll let somebody else finish the writing and like so
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Maybe it was that. Maybe it was just like, we've
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: got to keep this new DCU going, even if it
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: means handing this off to somebody else, which again, would
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: it have been better? We don't really know, but it
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: seems like it might have had a better shot if
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: it were one single vision kind of thing from writing
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: and even more so if you got the director involved, too.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: If it were anybody other than Mike Flanagan, the lack
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: of his involvement would not have been the lack of
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: their involvement would not have been so problematic, but because
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: it's Mike Flanagan who I don't love everything he's done,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: but I love a lot of the things that he's
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: done because he's very good at what he does. Like I,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I'm not a Scarlett Johansson fan, but I feel like
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: that exorcist movie is going.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: To be at least interesting. Looks interesting. It's going to
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: have more going on than the David Gordon green movie.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Which, David Gordon Green's movie is not terrible, but it's
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: also never getting a follow-up because it didn't succeed the
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: way they wanted it to financially. And ultimately, when you
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: pay $ 300 million for the franchise rights to something, you
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: have to make the money back.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Mike Flanagan's involvement in this movie was to try and
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: make money with one of these movies. Because like you said,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: for the most part, these movies are kind of getting
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: laughed out of the theaters. Morbius was a joke. Madam
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Web was a joke.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Craven.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I don't even know if any people realize that that
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: movie came out. Like, don't even know if they remember it.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: And that movie was directed by the guy who wrote
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: and directed Margin Call, of all people.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Which is... That's who you go for. Fucking yeah, right?
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: You're looking for a solid superhero movie.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I just talked about Margin Call a couple weeks ago,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: and the episode's not out yet, but when we were
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: doing the episode, Dr. Perlmutter was like, did you realize
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: that the guy who wrote and directed this directed Kraven?
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, and it makes no sense
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: to me. And again, that Kraven movie doesn't even make
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: sense to me at all. That movie makes no sense
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: why it exists.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: And... Madame Webb, same thing. Morbius, same thing.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: All of them exist to try and make money to
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: cash in on the character of Spider-Man and his cadre
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: of villains. This is like, we're trying to cash in
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: on the Batman characters because there's a ton of them.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: They saw how Joker worked, and they said, we'll do
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: that thing too. And look, I think this is much
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: more successful than any of those Marvel movies.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Has there been one that's been successful? Because normally these
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: are all being copied. It feels like the one that
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: was being copied.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: is Joker, which was a DC movie. Joker was the
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: only one that was really successful. Yeah, even the second
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Joker movie wasn't that successful. I'd like to point out.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, no, that one did not. Second Joker movie
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: is fun. I liked the second Joker movie. I haven't
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: watched it yet because I didn't like the first one,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: but like everybody else liked the first one. So from
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: what I've heard, the people that didn't like the first
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: one actually enjoy the second. Correct. Which makes me kind
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: of want to watch it. So I just haven't gotten
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: around to it yet, but I know it's a very
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: different mood.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: It's a very different movie. It's very much a, like,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: it's a condemnation of the people who liked the first movie.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: And we're, like, idolizing the character.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Of the first movie. Yeah, which is kind of funny, actually. Yeah,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: I found it very entertaining and amusing.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: And I think Todd Phillips, you know, he's not my
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: favorite director, but he definitely was as, I think, as
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: irked by the reaction to his first movie as I was,
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: which is like, look at how.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Much this is so great. It's like, fuck, no, it's not.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: It's really not. I, you know, to go in that
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: timeline of Joker comes out and then those Marvel, those
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Sony Spider-Man movies start coming out, which I think it's
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: very funny, like Spider-Man and Batman, both they're the biggest versions.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Of themselves and their respective Marvel and DC.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Spider-Man's characters are that same, like the villains of Spider-Man
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: are the best villains, like Green Goblin and, you know,
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Sandman and Batman, same. Like Batman has the best villains
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: in DC, Spider-Man has the best villains in Marvel. And
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: yet they fucked it up because they made it about
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: the villains that nobody cares about. Morbius, Madam Web, and Kraven.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: And again, what's funny, I guess we're forgetting about Venom.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Venom is the one that kind of superseded it, but
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's the Spider-Man stank on Venom that allowed
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Venom to kind of exist in its own world. Because
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: people are going to sit here and roast us for
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: forgetting Venom. Those Venom movies are fine. They did make
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of money. I mean, that is what powered
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: all of this. That's what powered those Marvel movies. That's
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: what powered these DC movies is.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: They made a lot of money. Like you said, this
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: movie was in existence before James Gunn took over. James
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Gunn's like, ah, but I feel like Venom existed.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: He could have canceled this movie, right? Like James Gunn
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: could have just been like, this is out the door
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: because I'm in now. Something I want to talk with
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: you about, and this is something that I kind of
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: had forgotten about because the movie I think is not great.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: The Josh Trank Fantastic Four movie is the last time
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: someone tried to do this. And I think it works
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: better here, this being the body horror. I think it
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: works better here, the body horror does. Because in that movie,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: it's like, well, it's the heroes and the powers. The
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: powers are supposed to be, when you're a hero, the
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: powers are supposed to be something you as a person
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: would want. I did not want any of the powers
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: in that movie the way they presented them.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: You don't want to burst into flames at any given moment?
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, not the way that that movie had it.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: You don't want to be a big orange rock thing?
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Not the way that, that's a problem. Like that movie,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I just, I don't know.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I'm, I don't want to drag that movie because I
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: think that movie has historically been drugged plenty.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: It's kind of forgotten at this point.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: I know, but it's the last time a superhero movie
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: or something superhero adjacent did body horror. And this is better,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: but I do think that this, once again, makes the
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: case as to why body horror.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Is just not....
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Body horror is never going to really work with superhero
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: movie stuff because you're not going to do it enough.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: This movie just doesn't do it enough. And I want
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: so much more body horror that this just makes me
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: want to go watch other body horror movies that are better.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: To me, I feel like body horror is, is its
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: own like sub genre more or less, but it also
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: like only works when given to the right people. Like
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: you can't just throw it in every once in a while.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Wander into a body horror movie. Like I never thought
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: of this. Like, yeah, it's like, and then, you know,
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: either it's just confusing or you're just grossing out people
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: that showed up for something else. Or like, I feel
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: like it, if you give it to the right people
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: and usually it's top tier that this is what they do.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: it works and they have something to say in the process.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: And it's, there's a reason for it to be there,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: not just for gross out effect versus sometimes, you know,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: when you get people just messing around and like, Oh,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: we're going to throw this in there too. It's like,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: it's not a good idea where at least this, like it,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: it kind of comes with the territory. Like it's hard
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: to have this character without at least part of it
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: being body or now again, whether or not it's successful
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: is a different question, but yeah, I don't know. I
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: feel like, I feel like it's not even that that's
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: a little off. Like, cause by the end I liked it,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: but I still felt like it was missing something. And
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: I think part of it was more of just the,
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: the bigger story of like, what are we really here for?
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Like I liked the character and I like what we're
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: doing and I liked setting it up, but at the
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: same time we're devoting so much time. And this is
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: what I was saying with the, is it necessary question earlier?
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: I'm like, Is, is what we get here in like
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: an hour and 48 minutes or whatever it is, is
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: any of this. any better or more impressive than if
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: you just work it in in like 15 minute intro
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: in the beginning of a batman movie somewhere down the
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: line well you've done that with many other villains over
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: the years and like they didn't get their whole separate
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: movie to set them up we just came in we
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: give them 15 20 minutes along the way in the
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: intro and then from that point on they are who
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: they are we finish the story so it's like sometimes
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: they do that really well in the right movie and
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: like some like is this is this all we needed
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: in a future batman movie was another 15 20 minute
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: intro setting up his powers giving him a little backstory
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: and then rolling with it versus this entire movie to
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: tell the exact same story.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: You're asking a question as to whether or not they
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: should have treated clay face like they did sandman In
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Spider-Man 3.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Pretty much. Because, I mean, that's... Or, you know, because that's... Even, like,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: huge characters. Like, you look at... You know, I was
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: impressed how well they worked in Black Panther and Before
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: they had a Black Panther movie. I agree. For all
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: the things going on in Civil War, whether you like
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: it or not, like the most impressive part probably because
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Spider-Man they just barely touch on. He has a minimal amount.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: But the Black Panther of it all is a full-fledged
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: introduction of a major character done just kind of in
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: the intro of the movie and then he becomes a
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: character in the rest of the movie. And it's done...
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: pretty impressively so that's the one i always go to
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: of like they didn't give him a movie first they
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: didn't let him build up a whole movie they threw
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: him in as a side character on a movie that
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: already had 14 other main stars so it's like the
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: fact that that worked is amazing so you take something
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: like this i'm like you're telling me you couldn't do
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: that with this character which is not near as impactful
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: as black panther i don't know that's my issue Well.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: And I guess the other question I have is, is
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: this more of a thing that we need to be
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: doing in a movie or should we have just done
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: this as a show and have it be other? I mean, again,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: they've already done a Penguin TV show. Why couldn't they
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: just done that? And then you would have had again,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: it would have had probably more effects. It might have
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: actually allowed for us to understand the character of Matt
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Hagen and his transformation, because that's the that's the problem
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: I have with this movie. At the beginning of the movie,
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: he's just seemingly a normal guy. And then by the
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: end of it, it's like, I know, obviously, by the
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: end of it, he's this giant kind of human pool of.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Stem cells, I guess. Question mark science.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: But he doesn't, his insanity is not very, the turn
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: is not very well done.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: At all.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: It's like Daenerys in Game of Thrones. He's very much
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: a sympathetic and empathetic character to the point of like
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: a dark man.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: And then at the end of it, it's like, well, no,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: he's got to be a villain for this to work.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: And it's like, but.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: what does he like in this universe? Does he have
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: to be a villain in this version of Clayface? Does
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: he have to be, maybe he could be an antihero.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Why does it have to be, why does it have
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: to check a box that nobody went into this, like
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: expecting to check? Like if someone says, well, why is
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: it not Basil Carlo instead of Matt Hagan? Like, why
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: are you asking a fucking dumb question that you know
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: the answer to already? Because not enough people know who
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: that is to begin with. And not the people who
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: are going to see this movie.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: On a Friday night.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: A lot of them don't fucking care. Sorry to tell you,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: but they just don't. They're going to see Clayface. They
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: don't give a shit if it's whoever, whatever, doing whatever
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: the fuck. This is going to be the version of
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Clayface they know now if they go see this movie.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: And this is a way more interesting character. It is
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: a good story. And that's what I'll say. They did
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: a good job as far as making him sympathetic in
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: the first third. He gets screwed. He just.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Literally just set up in the worst possible way. And
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: by the time you get to like everything falling apart
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: and his face is carved up, you know, it's like
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: one or the other would suck. But like the fact
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: that he looks like he does, he's lost his career.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: He's got like legal problems as they're lying and like
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: blaming him for everything. Like everything just falls into place
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: from the other side. Everything is against him at that point.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: So at that point, you're just like, man, at this point,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: whatever he does, I understand. You know, it's like if
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: he goes crazy and kills people, I get it because
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: like he was screwed over. And like the more you
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: get into it, the more you're like, oh, no, everybody
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: kind of screwed this guy over. So like I understand it,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: which does kind of lead to that question of like, well, now,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sympathizing with him a lot. So at
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: what point are we? I guess by the end he
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: is just flat out murdering people right and left. So like,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I guess now he has to be a villain, but
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I was just like, but these people also are horrible people.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: So if he just didn't murder them, cause I was like,
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: then you're like, it's a shade away from Batman because
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Batman deals with all these horrible people, but he doesn't
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: murder them. He just beats the hell out of them
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: first and stop short of killing them. And that makes
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: him a hero. So it's like, I don't know. Like
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: these are the same horrible underground underbelly of Gotham characters
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: that he's dealing with by the end of it. So
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: it's like, if he just stopped short of murdering them,
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: he'd still be a hero. He'd be a vigilante hero
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: like Batman. Well, is Punisher a hero? Like, and that's
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: what I don't understand. Like it's, he does murder people.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: So I don't know.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: It's, it's because of the murder of one character in
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: this movie that he is painted as the villain. And
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: it's the murder of the, that I guess are, are
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: because the film needed a female romance. And I guess
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: it works here in terms of like her being the
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: kind of woman that he's yearning for Naomi Ackie playing doctor,
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: who is the one that kind of helps him with
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: his skin issue with his face being so kind of
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: mutilated and, He kills her partner, played by Max Minghella, who, okay,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: that's the one murder. That's the too far at that point.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: That's the too far, but at the same time, it's like, I.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Need more than that. You need to do more than that.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Even Joker did more than that. He's hard to root
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: for in Joker. It just seems so random at that point.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Like it was such a hard turn all of a sudden.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it was leading up to something, but
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: he didn't seem like he was losing enough to do
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: with that. It's just like, well, I guess now he's
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: a bad guy. Because I did, I will say I
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: did like her and I did like their relationship. I
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: did kind of buy like at first she was just
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: helping him, but you do see it builds a decent
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: relationship with how much time they're spending together. So you
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: start to see, especially somebody as vulnerable and in bad
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: shape as he is like he would be attaching himself
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: to anyone but specifically you know we get just enough
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: of her that i'm like all right no i like
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: her as a character so like i can see him
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: becoming interested in her and like so i i buy
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: into that that relationship as it begins again i just
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: feel like we never really got a chance for it
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: to do anything else because it takes that hard turn
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden and now it's like well now
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: she can't be interested in you anymore you just murdered
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: her fiance. It's like, I don't know. It's a weird
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: turn for that to take. They wanted that twist ending.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: That's what it is. They wanted the twist and that's fine.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: It didn't need it. Like, why did he not just need,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: why could he not just be a sympathetic anti-hero? Like
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: if you're going to do your own thing.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Just do your own thing. Just continue to do your
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: own thing. He doesn't have to be this kind of
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: giant hulking villain. You spent this entire movie doing all this,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: and this is where you want to end up anyways?
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: That's the part that I genuinely don't understand. You spend
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: an hour and a half movie with this character, and
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: by the end of it, it's like, well, he's a
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: villain now. I'm not saying we can't spend an hour
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: and a half with a villain, but to your question before,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: what is the point then?
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: That is a story better suited for television. If you
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: want to tell a story that has a, a rise
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: and a fall, like a pronounced rise in a pronounced fall.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Like I think about star Wars and how much better
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: they would have done with those prequel movies. If it
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: had been a TV show where Anakin actually, like we
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: see him turn to the dark side. Oh wait, that's
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: clone Wars. I mean like they actually, when given time,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: they can actually show you the depths and kind of,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: complexities and nuance of the characters. And this movie doesn't
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: want to do any of that. It just wants to
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: rush to the end, even though there is a character
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: in this film who is a villain more so than
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Matt Hagen is at any point. Like, and that's the
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: character played by David Denik, who I think the last
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: time I saw him was in no time to die,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: which is fine, but he's, he's fine here, but his
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: character is such a villain. He's painted so villainously.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: He's a full-on gangster, and he knows it, and he
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't care. Right. Why does Matt Hagen have to be
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: a villain here? It doesn't even.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: It's like the film is at odds with itself. We
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: know he's willing to do morally reprehensible stuff, but it
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: is to people that are deserving of it. When I
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: was watching it... my girlfriend's son was like, oh, it's
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: like Dexter. And it's like, it is like Dexter, but
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: Dexter's better written. Like Dexter's a better thing because Dexter
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: understands that we still have to find him as a
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: somewhat relatable character like because again like if you're not
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: doing that for that reason why are you doing this
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: at all like i just don't understand like even morbius
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: is an anti-hero like he doesn't you know crave insane
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: like they're not ending the films like these like oh
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: i'm a villain now can't you see me fighting spider-man
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: like i can't see clayface fighting batman whatever version of
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: batman we're getting i can't see him fighting him and
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: that is probably why james gunn is saying what he's
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: saying because it's like i want impunity to introduce batman
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: the way that i want And I don't want the
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: tone of Batman to be At all influenced by the
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: tone of Clayface.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Because this movie is very light in terms of the horror.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Even for horror movies.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: That are coming out that are mainstream horror movies, this
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: movie is like two scenes, three scenes, and they show
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: two of them in the trailer.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Genuinely.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: They cut away in the trailer, but you do see
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: one of the big gross-out moments.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: Of the movie. And there's only a handful. It's not
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: even a horror movie. It is....
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: It is a comic book movie with some horror beats,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: but the character of Clayface doesn't.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Even have to be body horror.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: He could have been something else entirely and they still
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: could have gotten away with it.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: This version is body horror. I mean, they could have
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: done Killer Croc as well. body horror for fuck's sake
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: like yeah that's the one i was thinking of that's
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: that's close to this because i was thinking of all
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: these other villains that they have to work with and
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: like killer croc is maybe the closest to this man
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: bat same thing yeah if we ever get the man
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: bat but right.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Which is like fucking way the fuck down there on
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: the list yeah or not again, I would love to
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: see it, but that's, to me, that's a lot more
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: like you really have to.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: Figure out how to approach that. Whereas some of the others,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: you know, even like killer croc, we can piece together.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: It's similar story to many other things out there, both
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: in comics and just mythologically. It's just, it's a werewolf story,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: except he's a croc, you know, it's like, it's barely
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: any different or it's just like the lizard done on
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: the other side of the fence there. So it's like, it's, it's,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: different versions of the same thing but i think that's
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: as far as the it ending as as he is
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: a villain now i think that's part of the problem
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: too is watching it i'm like i think they had
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: that end and had to work backwards they were like
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: we know we want to make a clip you know
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: we want to go with this guy so he's going
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: to start off at the beginning and he'll be do
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: you think that's where flanagan took it do you think
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: that's where he would have taken it because that's where
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: i feel like this is a.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: It's like, that's where like, it's like the George RR
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: Martin of it all. Like that's where Flanagan's notes ran out.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: That's where the script was like, well, we don't, we
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: don't like, we did this needs to like sort of
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: tie in.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: So he's gotta be a villain now. Like we can't,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: can't have two vigilantes running around in Gotham, right?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Like, Okay. That's why we've got to make him just
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: randomly kill some people and then he's a bad guy
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden. But none of the people he
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: kills are bad people until Max Minghella. And like, you know,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: I'm not defending him. I mean, you want him to
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: kill all the rest of them. I mean, even his
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: friend totally sold him out and stabbed him in the
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: back and you're just like, well, I don't know if
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: you needed to murder him, but at the same time,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: he screwed you over. Like, he is kind of a
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: villain in and of him. You know, he's the reason
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: that all of this happened to you. So it's like,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: you at least get a pass as to him being
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: mad at him and going to take out some sort
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: of revenge. Whether or not it needed to be full
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: on murder is a different story. But there's no good
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: characters otherwise, other than the doctor. It's like nobody else
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: is a good character, I guess, except the cop who
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: gets taken out. So it's like, everybody else is just
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: kind of a horrible human being. And like, you don't
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: mind that he murders them.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: I think it's maybe defensible that he kills the cop.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: If you look at it from a, he's the cops
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: after him and trying to catch him.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: And that's it. I mean, he just barely like we
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: had that scene before. It just seems so abrupt because
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: it's like he just got to that point of like, oh,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: I think maybe he's part of this and he's maybe
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: killing me. And he showed up at his place and
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: started asking those questions. And then like if it would
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: have been like a half hour later when he seemed
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: like he was right on, you know, catching up to him,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: figuring out the mystery, then he killed him like. in
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: a desperate move, but like it's off screen and like
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: a scene later, you know, just like, well, that was
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: out of nowhere. You know, it seemed like if we
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: built more to that, it would have felt right possibly.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: But like, it just seems so abrupt all of a
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: sudden he's, he's dead now. Oh, well, you're a bad guy. Okay. Whatever.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Like that was a weird choice. It's just lazy.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's lazy. It's a different kind of movie.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: It is a movie that is not as well written
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: as the first two thirds. And I think it does
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: come from a genuine lack of understanding of what we
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: need from DCU in terms of how it treats the characters.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I don't care at this point what they do with
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: any of this because it's been shown that if you
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: want to like Cue close to what it is that
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: you're inspired by. It's going to be very different from
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: what the rest of us have seen. Like, you know,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: we're all coming at Batman and Superman from a different direction.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Like genuinely, we all are like, we all want and
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: have needs.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: For different things.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: So, you know, Tim Burton doing his thing or Chris
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: Nolan doing his thing or who, you know, Zack Snyder
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: or Joss Whedon doing his thing. Like they're all perfectly
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: valid interpretations of Batman because those are their own versions.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: I don't see how Batman works with this character.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: As it is. And I don't see.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: How DCU moves forward with this character in there, which
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: is why, like I said, James Gunn is just so.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: This isn't part of anything.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, because this is also, like you said, kind
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: of a hanger-on of the olden times. This would have
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: been perfectly in place in a Zack Snyder universe.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: Genuinely. Like....
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: You put this in with those Ben Affleck movies or
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: the James Wan stuff or any of the Joss Whedon
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: stuff or the Zack Snyder justice.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: Like, you know what? This works. This is exactly that because.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: This is not pulling the trigger even as much as
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: Supergirl and Superman have or, or lanterns like lanterns pulls
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: the trigger on true detective.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: It does it like this.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: This doesn't want to commit because just like those Snyder
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: DC movies, there was nothing to commit to.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: It's ultimately nothing to say. They robbed this movie of
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: everything to say by making him a villain. There's nothing
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: for this movie to say. He definitely can work in
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: a Batman world. And I think it's just got to
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: be consistent and work. Because what it's mostly trying to
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: do and what it definitely feels like it's drawing from
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: is Batman the Animated Series. Which is, again, arguably the
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: best version of Batman that's ever happened. Like, it is...
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: so well done when you find the right episodes and overall,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: it's just really impressive. So I actually did go back
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: and was, and was watching some, cause this one, I
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: think the most of what they're pulling from, especially in
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: the beginning, there is the feet of clay episodes, which
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: are the introduction of, of clay face in Batman, the
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: animated series. And it definitely is a basic overall version
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: of the actor turning into clay face story. it makes him,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: he's not sympathetic at all as the actor though, in
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: the animated version, he's just kind of a jackass from
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: the get go. Like, but he's already like, he already
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: has the problem. It's not like we watch it happen
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: by the time we meet him in these, again, they're
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: super short episodes. So it's like you, by the time
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: we're introduced to him, he already has the issue. He's
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: already falling apart. He's already using the chemicals to fix
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: his face. And then that starts to just make him hostile.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: And he, He just abuses his friend from the get
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: go there. Like even the one guy who stands by
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: him in the animated show, he's just terrible to him
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: the whole time. So like, he's not much of a
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: sympathetic character there, but it definitely fits in that version
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: of Gotham, that version of the Batman that's been introduced
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: in the animated series. They're just right there with each other.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: It really does kind of work. So I think there
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: is a way to make that work, but, This is
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: just not this is not that same tone of what
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: you're getting out of the animated series in this movie.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: And you're definitely like at this point, we haven't even
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: seen the Batman that would have to match with this.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: So like that makes it harder for us to even
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: be like, well, wait, so what are we doing with
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: this guy now that we've gotten to the end? Which, again,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: that end was sort of set up in one of
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: the episodes as well, the way that it ends there.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: it's pretty much straight up how I think it's supposed
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: to go in one of the episodes further down the
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: line when they keep going with, with Clayface. And I
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: don't know, like, again, I think it, that villain works
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: really well in that animated series. So there is a
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: way to do it. I just don't know that this
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: was the way. And again, I feel like it starts okay.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: And it does make him a, a, sympathetic character and
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: you like what he's trying to do as it starts
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: to be him just sort of getting revenge but it
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: again it is like that last third or so where
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: you're just like well wait now who is he what
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: is he and so i don't know i i think
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: that's part of the issue is like we don't have
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: our pre-established batman and batman world to see how he
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: fits into it and see how he matches up with
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: the other half of what should be this story which
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: is batman who isn't here Or if.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: It even has, you know, what is it tonally like
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: with the other villains? I mean, not even to speak
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: to Batman, but what are the other villains like in
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: this world that, you know.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Two-Face or Joker? Like, are they going to interact with Clayface?
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Is that a thing? Like, will they be as aghast
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: at dealing with him as, like, the people that we've
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: seen now? It just feels like something that's not going
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: to ever be answered. genuinely.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: And I don't think that anyone, and I don't think
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: anyone making this movie wanted to answer that question or
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: made this movie to answer any of it. And it's
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: at the end of the movie where it feels like
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: it's trying to tie back into that sentiment that this.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Movie was not being made with.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: The two thirds of this movie are a very different
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: movie because they feel like a Mike Flanagan movie. That's
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: just trying to be its own thing, which is perfectly fine. Um,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: It literally just being a standalone Clayface movie or series
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: of movies, those Venom movies may never have anything to
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: do with the MCU.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: Best we can tell, they won't, which is good.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: Why not just give us three Clayface movies and have
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: them just be like those Venom movies? Have them be
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: this universe's version of Venom because there's versions of Venom
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: where he's a villain and Venom.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Also could be a body horror character. Venom is kind
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: of a body horror character as it is. It probably
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: should have been more in those other movies. I mean,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: it kind of was, right? I feel like that was
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: my issue. I had little to do with those Venom movies,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: but I feel like that was my issue. They took
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: what I felt was such a cool... villain or anti-hero
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: depending on who you ask in the comic book world
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: i mean.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: There's multiple versions you know yeah he definitely starts off
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: like he's a villain and and certainly looks like he
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: should be a villain so you could do something really
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: cool and dark and like i feel like then they.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: Got this movie and we're like oh what if we
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: made it a funny buddy movie like like I just,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: that rubbed me the wrong way because of that. I
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: don't know. What, that it was a buddy, like buddy comedy?
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: That it just made Venom a joke. Like it just like,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: it defanged him so much that like, nope, you can't
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: murder that lady.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: Was it any better or any worse than what they
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: did in Spider-Man 3?
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Well, again, that's not the place to say.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: It's not the bar to say. It is the bar
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: because that's the only other time we've gotten Venom. No,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: and they fumbled the ball there too. I think that
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: the Venom movies are better than Venom and Spider-Man 3
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: because at least the Venom movies.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: Are like a unified idea. I get it.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Like you're not the first person or the last person
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: or the only person to say like, I don't like
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: what they did with Venom because it's a little jokey
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: and it's a little- It's very jokey.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: I don't disagree. But at the same time, you know what?
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: Like they're not like.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Any of those other movies.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: Like at least they're fucking weird and jokey and like
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: strange and they have woody harrelson in that horrible red
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: wig and at the end of the first one like
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: they're they're making choices maybe they're not always the best
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: ones but at least they're not bound by what would
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: have been at the time that mcu tone that was
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: just so overwhelmingly like part of the like marvel what
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: was it like phase three was that what it was
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: where it was like everything had the same like tone
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: it was like oh we're gonna have this like serious
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: moment undercut by a joke i would rather have a
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: movie that's just jokey throughout than a movie that's like
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: trying to be serious but then utter undercutting every serious
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: moment with a joke because that's all those joss whedon
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: movies were And it set the tone for Marvel so
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: hard for pretty much up until now. Like, I mean,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: like I would say that Spider-Man movie is like the
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: first time and same with Thunderbolts where it's like, Oh,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: you mean we can like have a serious conversation here
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't have to be undercut by like dick.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: And fart jokes. The Marvel equivalent of dick and fart jokes. Like,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: I will throw in the Guardians 2. I feel like Guardians,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: especially Guardians 3, got pretty dark. I haven't seen it.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen it because I've heard it's very emotionally
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: manipulative and not necessarily in a fun way.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: It is, but it's also like you're just watching. We already...
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: they're already weird, screwed up characters in the first two,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: but like, we're just watching them. Almost everybody in the
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: cast that we love is just broken at this point.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: Like they've been through so much shit that they're just
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: like such a mess. They're like, I actually just rewatched
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: it recently just cause I hadn't seen it in a while.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: And I was just like, I really like a lot
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: of what they're doing. And they really, they take what
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: they're doing with rocket and make it in a important
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: story for this for this character but everybody not just
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: him not just star lord like everybody is just such
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: a mess by the end of that movie that it's
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: it is a lot to take so it's like i
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: i will say there's there's some fun moments here and
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: there but not near as much like they definitely went
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: full-on lean into the darkness on that one so i
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: i Again, that's further into the run. So by that
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: time we were getting the third Spider-Man and the third
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: Guardians and they were allowing them to do a little.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: I think those are the ones that hold up a
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: little better for me.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: They were so interested in like doing a certain thing
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: for so long that it's nice that they finally kind
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: of have seemingly stopped. But this I would say that
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: this movie really belongs in those Snyder DCEU movies. They
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: have that same tone. I could see Ben Affleck's Batman
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: fighting this version of Clayface.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: See, I don't see as much of the Justice League
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: version of it. What I do see is this would
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: fit in just fine with Suicide Squad. The first. Or
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: Batman v Superman? The one everyone hates, Suicide Squad. I mean,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: it's still technically part of the same world and they
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: have their little cameos or whatever. But I feel like
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: that is another one of those that's not a good movie.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: But I have rewatched it a couple of times now
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: because there's such good elements in it. Are you talking
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: about the one with Will Smith? Yeah. And again, people
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: hate that movie. But I'm like, there's definitely great moments
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: in it. I saw that thing in theaters. I feel
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: like I have a reason to hate it. Oh, yeah.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is not good. I don't pretend like
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: it is. But there's moments along the way that I'm like,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: this is what you could have done.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: Like, you see moments of like, if you... took this
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: and put it in another movie that wasn't a train wreck.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Like this moment works, and this moment works, and this
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: character's good here. And like, if you see the pieces
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: of what could have been a really good superhero movie,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: and it's just such a mess. But I feel like
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: this Clayface would fit in with that just fine. Like
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: he would hang out with With any of those characters,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: he is definitely like the stand in for any of
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: that other stuff along the way. And that tone of
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: what's going on in this movie, I think would have
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: played just fine in that world. So I think it's
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: closer to that for me than even like the Justice
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: League Superman of it all. what is the tone of
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: this movie? Is this movie super serious? No, because I
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: think it knows, I think it, it's trying to lean
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: into more of a horror movie. I think there's a
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: lot of aspects of it that work too. Like the,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: the stuff that is just tension, like, and, and knowingly
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: like messing with you in the audience. Like it's when
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: you've got him in the bathroom of the plane and,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: with scissors inches away from his eyeball. Like that's just
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: messing with the audience. Like they know exactly what they're
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: doing at that point and whether or not it's necessary
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: for this movie or this character, that moment is effective
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: because you're going, Oh God. Oh yeah. Like it's constantly
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: just pushing to see how far it can, it can
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: make people squirm in their seats. And I feel like
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: there's several times in this movie that it does that,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: that even if it doesn't work well, full-on body horror
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: there are several times when it's just messing with him
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: injuring himself and making people watch it because there were
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: times when i feel like people were like audibly weirded
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: out by some of the stuff going on in the
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: theater that like you can see that's the kind of
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: stuff that i think they're they're trying to lean into
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: the the horror end of it more than the super
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: serious superhero-ness of it all i again i didn't get
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: near as much superhero from this But I do feel
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: them trying to be a tense movie, trying to be
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: a horrific movie, even if it doesn't always work. I
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: feel like that's going on from the filmmaking aspect of it.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: Those are the more interesting parts of the movie is
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: when it wants to do a horror movie thing.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: I kind of don't need any more superhero movies. Like I'm, I'm,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: I know that, you know, I don't know if we've
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: talked about this, but I know I've talked about this
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: with Mike. Like I'm really good. Like I, I'm not
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: in need any more of any more superhero movies. Like we've,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: we've gotten peak saturation at this point to the point
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: where Marvel is struggling to make a comic book.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: It has been for a while.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure who really even cares about the Marvel
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: movies anymore. And I think that that's on Marvel. That's
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: on them. They haven't really been engaged in making quality movies.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: And I kind of checked out after Endgame, understandably and
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: rightfully so. Like, it was really a struggle to get
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: me to care about even that Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: Spider-Man movie.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: It was fine. And they spread themselves so thin because
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: then not only were they cranking out, you know, five
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: movies a year, but then they kept putting out series too.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: And even the series weren't that good. Like they started solid,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: but as time went on, it was one year, one
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: year had like eight releases or some shit. Like, well,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, as time went on, like I got to
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: the point, I'm like, I don't even want to watch
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: this series. And you're like, I would see it and
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: be like it. Okay. This could, I really am not
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: even engaged in the idea here, but I like Marvel
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: in general. I'll try to watch it. And then like,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, I don't care about what's going on
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: in this whole series right now. And then, I mean, that's,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: you know, investing six and eight hours at a time
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: in those just to come back to a movie that
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: also wasn't working too. So it's like, they are a
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: hundred percent to blame. And I think there are some
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: high points along the way. I'm not throwing everything out,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: but I'm just like, they did not put the effort
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: in to keep up what they were doing. And you
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: see audiences eventually were just like, yeah, Maybe we're ready
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: for something else too. It cracks me up that at
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: one point Marvel released like eight things in one year.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: It was a lot.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: Guys, we don't need four TV shows and four movies
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: in one year. Your creativity, I appreciate that you are
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: unbounded by financials, but you should be bounded by the
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: needs of the creative because you are overdoing it by
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: a size.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: Margin. Riding high when you've got that much power and
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: that much success is like, it's never going to go away.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I don't know that that's true. In fact,
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: now I do know that's not true.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: No, they've had to resort to every trick known to
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: man to try to get people interested in Doomsday.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: And You know, that's that's the thing. I wish Marvel
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: would make something like this. I guess.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, they try to, you know, so I would
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: say like this, but like something where it's like not
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: something I would expect of them. And I guess Spider-Man
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: is kind of like that. And Thunderbolts is kind.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: Of like that. But still, it's like it's still.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: Kind of even this is still kind of just a
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: superhero thing. Like I know you you're saying like, well,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: it's not that much of a superhero thing, but the
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: worst parts of this movie are because it is a
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: superhero thing.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, they were leading towards what I feel
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: is way closer to this with man thing. Then again,
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: I think they just got distracted or handed it off
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: to somebody else and it didn't happen. But they definitely like,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: because werewolf by night is probably as close as you're
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: going to get. You know, we mentioned it earlier, but
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: it's definitely like what they were trying to do in
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: this world on that side of the fence. And like,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: so we get to the end of that and the
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: man thing of it all feels very close to like,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: the clay face tone. So it's like, it definitely seems
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: like that could have been something on it and it
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: worked fine for streaming. So that could have just been
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: an interesting show and maybe not a lengthy show. Again,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: sometimes I think they overextend themselves with these super long.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: I liked the one hour one off, you know, werewolf
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: by night because it didn't make you like all right,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: here's seven more hours of this after this episode's done.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: And we got to come up with something to fill
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: all this time. Like I think that's what we talked
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: about last time. Yeah.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: We talked about that last time with the, you know,
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: like at this point, how much do you have to
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: even watch to be able to watch any of this?
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: Like you can't enjoy any of this.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: Like, You know, I don't even think you could watch
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: Doomsday without having seen at least something else before. And,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: you know, we were joking last time we recorded because
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: we talked about Crystal Lake. Like, how refreshing it was
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: to be able to watch a TV show that I
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: didn't have to appreciate anything ahead of time to appreciate it.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: And with anything Marvel now, it's like, how many rabbit
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: holes do I have to go down to be able
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: to understand this one thing? Like, Vision Quest... is the
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: worst best example of that. I'm not deriding the show's
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: quality or anything else. It's just it is very indicative
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: of where we are with things, which is to say
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: where we are is so far in the weeds that
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: all we have at this point is all of this
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: mythology we've just created and built.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: On top of and built on top of.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, no, there's... no chance anymore that you
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: could just watch these movies like and that they don't
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: they i guess don't know or understand or care about
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: that i just like and it's like oh no it's
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: the audience that doesn't get it it's like you've alienated
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: the audience by making these movies so involved that you
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: can't just watch the movie you have to do your
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: homework first it's like who wants to do that even
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: the most like you know cynical amongst us who will
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: do it for a movie even we don't want.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: To do But some of it's just too much time
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: to fill, too. And that's why I think even this,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: because you suggested earlier that maybe this need to be
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: a streaming series. I don't want that. Four episodes max.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: Four episodes. Maybe.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I don't want to have to, like,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: I feel like even at the end of this, I
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: was like, they're running out of stuff. Like, like I said,
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: it could be a 20 minute segment. It's, it's completely
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: just like limp dicking on a lot of the stuff.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: Like we have, Oh, we have a guy get, uh,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: you know, he holds his head against his body and
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: he suffocates him. Like there's stuff going on in this movie.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: And we're like, where's the.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: Body horror of him? falling apart and becoming Clayface. Like it's,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: it's not here. It's not here in the way that
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: it needs to be here. And you have a guy
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: who's injected himself with nanite stem cells. And this is
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: what we're getting. Like it's, it's not enough. It's, it's
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: not enough.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: It needed to be more.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: And it's not because it is again, like you said,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: reluctantly a superhero movie, genuinely reluctantly, like whether or not
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: it wants to be part of anything that James Gunn
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: is doing. is besides the fact it is and whether
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: or not James Gunn wants it to be part of
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: what he's doing.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: It is like, you know, I just don't know that
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: I would be on board with more of the story
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: at this point. Like if they do something else with
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: it down the line, I would be interested to see
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: maybe if they find some good way to work it in. I, again,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: I like Clayface as a, as the monstrous character he
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: is like in the animated series. So that would be
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: cool to see if they do it right. But again,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: like I said, even a four hour series, I'm like,
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: that's just a lot of time to fill for something
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: that again, still seems like it's just setting up the
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: first part of a thing that needs the other part
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: of the thing to make it work at all. Like,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's still so much set up here
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: that like, he can't be a final character by himself.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: He still has to be half of what's going to
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: happen when the other half comes along to fight with him.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: Everything else just seems like set up at this point.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: I guess the question I have for you is, can
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: Clayface exist without Batman? Because that's kind of what you
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: were asking before about the Morbius and the Madame Web
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: of it all.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: What is the point of any of this if you
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: don't even have Spider-Man? That's the bigger question here. By
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: your approximation, what is the point of any of this
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: if they're not going to put Batman in these movies?
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: I was shocked that we did not get a single
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: Batman anything. Not even a cameo at the end as
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: he's standing on a building watching him or something. That
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: would be where you would end.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: Joker had more than this movie did. And like, I'm
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: not saying Joker is a great way of doing it,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: but it's a better way of doing it than this
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: where it's like, what is, what, where does it, what,
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: what's going on? Like, I'm not asking to have it explained,
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: but like you need to do some explaining because you're
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: the movie, not me.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: Even Suicide Squad had a full on cameo from Batman
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: and it is not a good movie. But they worked
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: him in so that you knew, oh, well, eventually that's
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: where they're leading to. We just have to sit through
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: the rest of this dumb movie to get there. But yeah,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: it's like with this, it's like I wish it worked better. Like, again,
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: I don't think the character as a human is a
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: bad character. Like I said, that first third is pretty
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: interesting watching him just get set up and sold down
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: the river. And then, like I said, I like him
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: as a big monstrous character at the end. I just
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: feel like it's a weird trip that takes us there.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: And I don't feel like it has any direction. Like
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: it knows where it wants to go. It doesn't know
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: how to get there exactly. And even then, once it
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: gets there, it doesn't know what to do without the
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: other part of the equation, which is Batman. So these
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: are the issues I'm still kind of dealing with.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: I think, to your point, I'm not sure how much
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: I care about this character without Batman. Because Batman sets
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: the tone of what this character is. I mean, imagine
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: if this character came out honking his nose like a
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: fucking clown. You'd be like, what is Batman? Is Batman
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: going to be this jokey character? Is Batman going to
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: be the super serious character that lives in the same
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: universe where a guy has a knife jammed into his
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: mouth and cuts up half of his face?
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: Is that Batman's universe? I mean, that sounds like Batman, really. Right, yeah.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: Like every Batman I've ever heard. Is Batman dark? Like
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: he is, certain interpretations, but not every single one. You know,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: I think of Tim Burton's Batman, not dark at all.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, the universe is very dark. The character, not
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: as much. He's definitely, he's messed up, but he's not
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: like dark and takes himself super serious. He's just sort
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: of dealing with things as best he can in a
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: very dark world. But yeah, by the time you get
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: to the, the next two, it's not really dark from
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: any perspective. There's, there's, there's a lot of crazy fun
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: things going on in those, uh, Those next two. Well,
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: maybe that's the thing.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: Maybe Metropolis is just this really upbeat and fun place
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: and Gotham is just this real bummer. Maybe Gotham is
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: just this real bummer of a place and Metropolis is
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: so much better. Again, why not say that? Give us
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: an idea of what's going on in this universe. I'm
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: not saying explain things, but give us a broader sense
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: of the universe that this character occupies because I am
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: generally unclear as to... Yeah, he's nominated for an Oscar
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: of sorts. Like, what does that even mean?
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: Like nothing. Don't introduce things like this if you're not
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: even going to explain them a little bit, like a
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: little bit.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: Just don't don't be doing this lip service thing when
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: we know this isn't like the first movie in a
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: thing where it's like, well, we're revealing that this is
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: Clayface in the third act and you didn't know it
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: was part of the Batman universe and we're establishing it now.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: Like. Nope. They didn't even do that. Imagine if they
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: had done that. Imagine if that had been this.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: Imagine if this had been split and all of a
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: sudden it's like, oh my God, this is the James
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: Gunn DCU. Wouldn't that be crazy that that's what we're
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: getting and it started with Clayface? Maybe if this movie
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: were better.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: But you know what?
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: I would be able to probably give it a pass
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: if it did that more than doing... Just the very
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: basic and obvious, which I feel like this movie does.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: It has those moments, but those moments that it has,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: those kind of like body horror moment moments are not
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: even for the movies.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: Like, like we mentioned the substance and together.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: Like those are bigger in their kind of reach than
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: this movie and kind of the expectations of this movie.
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: And those movies do the body horror better than this
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: movie does.
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: And I don't know why.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: Like you said, if you're going to do Clayface this way,
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: he's got to be a body horror character.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: That's the only way you can do it.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: You can do it any other way, but if you're
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: going to do it this way, he's a body horror character.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unless we're not doing the origin story of him
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: as a human. If it's just he is that monstrous thing,
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: he's born of clay, and that's all he is is
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: a big monster. That's how he started, and that's what
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: he is. That's fine. You can introduce him that way
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: and just not give him a weird– super sad human
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: story to start things off. But like, if you're going
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: to do him as human, I don't know how you
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: do it. That's not body horror. Like how could you
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: have this tap into you and not be horrified by it?
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: So, and I think of the other character that this
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: reminded me of that again, feels like, Oh.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: We don't want, he's an antihero. He's a really sympathetic character.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: Did they not watch dark man before they made this movie?
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: It definitely has a lot of that to it. Again,
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: it's not here as well done. But then it strays
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: away from it.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: It like runs at high speed away from like this
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: being a sympathetic character. And again, it doesn't work because
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: it feels like it was trying to meet another expectation,
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: not the expectation of the narrative.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: I think there's so many good villains in that world,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: specifically if we start pulling from like the animated series,
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: like that's where people learned about all these lesser villains.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: It's like everybody knew, you know, your big four because
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: they used to be on the live action show, you know,
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: years and years ago. But like outside of that, normal
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: people that weren't like hardcore comic fans didn't know about
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: most of these villains. So you get, I mean, that's
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: not only did they create Harley Quinn, but like, like Mr.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: Freeze wasn't really a character that anybody else knew about
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: until the animated series. So that's one of those that
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: like you, you can watch even in that, like, you know,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: 22 minute episode is presented as such a tragic figure.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: And you could see how you could do like all
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: of these villains and like focus on their, their tragic
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: origin story and make it work. But I don't know
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: that that translates into each one gets a movie, you know,
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: it's like if we're, There's some great ones that, you know,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: the ventriloquist that people are really like creeped out by
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: that guy. But do I need an hour and 48
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: minute ventriloquist movie? Like, probably not. Do we need a
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: whole baby doll and like Clock King? People like that guy.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: But do I need a whole movie setting up him
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: as a villain? I don't think so. So I think
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: there's a way to do that and there's a way
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: to dig into the dark side. super sad stories that
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: lead to all these characters. That's definitely like in penguin
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: and Joker. And like, we get that with a lot
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: of the, the big names and it's in all of
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: this rogues gallery, but I just don't know that you
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: can do it full fledged, full movie and not have
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: it start to suffer without also having Batman there to
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: fight at the end of it. You know, it's like,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: it's got to counterbalance it with Batman or something else.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: That's not just this guy. going through this story for
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: the whole movie, because it, again, it just feels uneven. Well,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: you said Mr. Freeze.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, that, that is how you should have made
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: this movie. You make Clay face the guy who is
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: like the lizard experimenting on himself becomes the monster or whatever.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: And there you go. Bob's your uncle.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: Like I don't, why he needed to be a villain
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: feels more like an expectation of someone else, not an
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: expectation of the narrative. Like he should have just, he
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: should have just been, a sympathetic anti-hero who, yeah, he
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: does some things that maybe I wouldn't do, but I
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: also haven't had my face cut up by the mob.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: So there you go.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: Like it, and I guess it's like, why, why are we,
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure you've heard the term like over-engineered,
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: like why are we over-complicating things? Like this is a
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: over-engineering problem. Like you over-engineered your movie and then you
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: added things in there to, to have a twist happen that, oh,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: by the way, and this is something, you know, we
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: didn't mention about the twist.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: The twist pays off in the same fucking scene you
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: do it. You didn't even like wait five minutes.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: You didn't have it be like, well, Matt Hagen has
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: been walking around as Max Minghella for a while, getting
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: up to no good.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: Like, nope. She finds him in the next, like lit
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: at the same scene in the next room. Like, was
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: there a scene in between here? Like what was I,
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: did I, what? I mean, I'm not even, I'm not,
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating. Am I like, it's literally the same scene. No,
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: she opens the door and it's like, oh, I was
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: just talking to you, but you're dead on the floor
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: in the next room. So that's probably not you, huh?
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: Like it, it's just, like I said, it's just out
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: of nowhere. Just like, okay. I mean, yeah, we set
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: up the he knows he's kind of piecing it together,
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: but that needed to be an extra 20 minutes or
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: so of like leading to this point and showing him
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: get to the point of like, well, this feels like,
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: you know, my only way out is to, I have
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: to do this now if I'm going to survive. And
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: even more so if it was like setting up, because
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: like I said, I like their heading toward a romance
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: type of angle, but like, it seems like that sort
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: of skips a step too, where it's like, it's just
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: at the point where they're starting to like each other,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: like halfway into this movie. And then it jumps to
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: him murdering her fiance so they can be together. And like,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: it jumps to the end where he's already like delusionally
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: wanting to be with her, like obsessively wanting to be
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: with her. And it's like, again, did we skip a step?
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: Because I feel like that would be fine if we
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: got to that point, but I'd feel like we didn't
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: get to that way. Honestly, we just jumped to it.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: And like, it feels like, We're missing a big portion
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: of that middle part where he becomes the crazy full-on
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: villain at the end versus where he was at even
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: at the halfway point of this movie. I think if
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: you talk about DC doing things rushing and jumping to
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: conclusions and jumping ahead is something DC loves to do.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: Because if you talk about Justice League or anything of
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: kind of those things in terms of like why is
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: it the way it was or what's the sentiment surrounding it?
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: It's because they couldn't be bothered to wait. It's because
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: they couldn't be bothered to actually let it build and
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: give it a moment to breathe and like, oh, here
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: we go. We actually have something going on.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: It's like, nope. We're just trying to get to it
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: because we saw that they got to it already and
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: they were successful when they got there.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: And it's like, you know what? Sometimes you don't always
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: have to make your bones or pay your dues. But
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: in In film, with audiences, you have to kind of
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: build up their trust, and DC's not interested in doing that,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: and they still aren't interested in doing that. And this film,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: I think, proves out, because this film needed at least
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: another 20 minutes. Genuinely, this film needed more time, because
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: it is an incomplete narrative as it stands. It just
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 2: jumps ahead, and DC is known for jumping ahead.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I feel like it's because they felt like
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: they were so far behind from the beginning. Like, Marvel
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: had already logged in so many movies by the time
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: they got rolling on their projects that they were just like, oh, God,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: we got to catch up with them. I'm like, no,
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: you can't. Like, you can't jump ahead six or eight
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: movies from where they've built up all this time. Again,
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: not that they did it perfect. They dropped the ball
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: a few times in the beginning, too. But it's like eventually...
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: they figured it out and they got to where they
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: needed to be, obviously, because they became super successful then.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: But it's like by that time, they were way more
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: interested in playing catch up than they were with trying
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: to tell a good story or trying to set up
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: this universe so that it works in the long run.
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: They were just busy trying to be like, hurry up,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: we got to get to where they are. And it's like, no,
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: that's not going to work. Like, obviously it didn't. So
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: I don't And there's space enough for two in all
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: of this. Like, yeah, again, there's, there's two very distinctly
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: different worlds out there in, in the comic book world
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: and the, you know, stuff that's been on TV. Like
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: there's very different fan bases. There's a lot of crossover
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: even in fans, but like they know how to separate
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: them and they know how to appreciate different things from different,
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: you know, Marvel, DC, different heroes, whatever. Like, the fans
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: understand what it is more than the people making all
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: those it seems to be because they feel like they
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: have to compete and it has to be a one-to-one
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: comparison it's like no you can do a different thing
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: over here and the fans that like that will show
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: up for it you just have to do it well
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: not fast like they're just so busy with trying to
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: keep up with the other one yeah you see what happens.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: It's the downhilling of it all for me i'm just
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: like we gotta get We had to get to the
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: point that they were at where we have the crossover movie.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: And it's like, nobody gives a shit if you haven't
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: set your characters up like that justice league sucked because
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: those characters were, were ill defined. And that has nothing
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: to do with Joss Whedon or Zack Snyder or anyone
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: else directing the movie. Like, why do I care about
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: any of these characters? Like, why should I care about
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: any of them?
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, I shouldn't. Okay. Got it.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: Like, you've not given me a reason to care. You
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: haven't given me a reason. Why is it my job
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: to care about these characters? Like you need to work.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: And like, give me a reason to care. It's such
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: a shame because I think they spent most of this
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: movie setting up a reason to care about Matt Hagen
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: as a character. But they also, again, they don't give
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: us any... complexity to his character. Like I never see
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: the character that they're claiming is like, Oh, you know,
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: all these people were coming forward that had like stories
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: about him. Like we're assuming that those are all lies,
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: but they could be true. If they wanted to give
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: us a version of the character that we're not supposed
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: to like, that we kind of see getting is just
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: desserts becoming clay. He's like, that was also a direction
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: you could have gone instead. They just kind of, chose
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: nothing which i find to be the most reprehensible option
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: like you have all this time and energy and money
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: and a mike flanagan script and instead of like making
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: a concerted decision on any of this you're just like
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: man just kind of do all of it because we
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: don't know what the audience likes if.
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: If they're going to make him a full-on villain by
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: the end they probably should have kind of done that
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: they should have made him like a little more in
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: the in the in the dirt have him kill naomi
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: aki like have him kill her by accident like or
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: on purpose even like why what does it matter or
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: just make him like a questionable character like everybody else
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: in this story is like grimy and villainous and like
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: everybody is involved in the underworld and like everybody is
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: dirty in this so it's like if he was also
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: one of those guys, cause I mean, they sell him
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: as this kid from, you know, the projects, you know,
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: and he was this kid that came from nowhere. So
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: like maybe he did some stuff to try to get
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: successful that he's not proud of. So it's like, if
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: we lean into that a little, it might not be
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: so crazy once he ends up where he does versus
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: he is like so squeaky clean at the beginning. Like
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: he is this perfect dude in this up and coming
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: superstar and like everything in his life is, is great.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: But that's– if you're not like giving him a reason
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: to become dark, it's like while– yes, they set him
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: up and like he has reason because everybody screws him over.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: But like as a character, it's just so out of
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: nowhere to go from like this perfect squeaky clean character
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: that he starts off to just murdering people that get
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: in his way down the line. It's like that's a
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: weird slide to end up on in– hour and 46
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: minutes or 48 minutes or i don't know it's a
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: quick turnaround for something that's that drastically different from one
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: end of the movie to the next is.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: It better or worse than nolan's usage of two-face because
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: i guess that's the other body horror thing we could
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: talk about and probably should talk about because.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: I think i think in that movie it actually works
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: pretty well I think like, you know, I don't like
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: that movie. It does. It's just not enough time. No,
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: it's not. But that movie's three hours long. We don't
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: need more movie, but we needed more time with him
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: as Two-Face. Like we get plenty of time with him
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: as Harvey, but like it's so quick that he gets
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: to be, you know, Two-Face and then it's over with already.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, and then we killed off the character
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: we could have made a whole nother movie with. instead
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: to keep alive the character that in the real world
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: we don't get to make another movie with so it's
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: like again that's just real world problems that like oops
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: guess we wouldn't have killed off harvey if we knew
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: we could have made another movie with him versus where
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: we wanted to go with joker and that's never going
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: to happen so i feel like that's also part of
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: it too is they didn't know what was coming they
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: really should have kept harvey alive so we could have
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: had a really cool third act in the third movie
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: where he shows up and is the real villain but
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: like no again you just you make a call and
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: you don't know how life's gonna turn out so.
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: And Harvey Dent doesn't die in such a definitive way
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: in that second movie that you couldn't have just had
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: him come back to life anyways.
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, in a comic book movie, certainly. No, we
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: were we were just messing around. He's fine. He's fine.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: People fall off of high ledges all the time and
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: survive for fuck's sake.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: He's got he's got like a he's got a scar. See,
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: look at that. Look at his face. Exactly. He survived
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: because of the magical thingy majiggy wound. his coin saved him.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Batman's back. It's broken in the next movie.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: And he, he literally survives and fixes it in like
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: two months, two months, guys. It's I I'm really irritated
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: by body horror being used by superhero movies in the
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: same way that they use other genres because they, I,
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: they haven't done anything. You know, Tetsuo the Iron Man
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: is probably the closest we've ever gotten to like an
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: actual body horror superhero movie that does the body horror
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: right and the superhero right. And that's I mean, again,
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: like it shows like the actual horrifying nature of like
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: what would happen if your body was becoming that. And,
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: you know, I do think that as much as Josh Trank,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: you know, completely pooched it with Fantastic Four. the thing
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: is a good example of how to do body horror
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: right if you wanted to do it like that is
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: horrifying to like start turning into a rock man like
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: it's not particularly pleasant I mean there is part of
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: the character of the thing that's about you know like
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 2: the ostracization of the character because he looks the way
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: that he does and you know I'm so glad that
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: the new movie doesn't lean into that because it's like
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: there's also part of it where it's like that's also
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: very passe and doesn't need to like exist anymore like
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: We don't need to have like the whole city's ostracizing
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: him because he looks different. Like what are we teaching kids?
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: If that's like a problem, like fucking just like be like, no,
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: it's like we love him because he's literally saving our
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: city and he doesn't have to be a Teenage Mutant
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: Ninja Turtle. Like even now, like with the Teenage Ninja Turtles,
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: like why are they hiding in the dark? The city
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: would love them. Like, you know, if they need secret identities,
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to have one when you're a
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: seven foot tall turtle, right?
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: Like, no, they have a, the trench coat. It's fine. Yeah.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: It's a hat and a trench coat. You're good.
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's so silly. Like all of this superhero
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: stuff is so silly. And that's, it's like, I'm not
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: saying you can't take it seriously, but if you're going
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: to take it seriously, you gotta have us understanding what
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: about this needs to be taken seriously. And that's what
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: this movie doesn't do. Like it doesn't, it doesn't make
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: it clear what of this is serious and what of
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: this is, is kind of like supposed to be like
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: a joke or fun. And, I'm so kind of, I'm
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: so put off by sub genre kind of like just,
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know, co-opting in superhero movies because it's like,
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: are you doing this from a place of love? Are
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: you doing this because you saw something else do it
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: somewhat successfully? And that's what I can't figure out. Cause like,
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 2: there's never been like a body horror movie. That's like
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: a multi-billion dollar movie. Maybe the substance.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: It's like, why, why would you be like a DC
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: movie needs to be body horror? Like I would think
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: if you're making Clayface, you'd want to stay away from
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: it in this day and age.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I mean, again, it does
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: kind of put you in a certain spot.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: Like it forces you to make a certain kind of movie.
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a point in this movie that you
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: can't tell me it's not echoing the fly. When he's like,
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: kill me, kill me now.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: Like, that is literally the fly. Like, one for one. Well,
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: there's aspects that are the Invisible Man. It's got a
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: little Frankenstein. You know, it's all of the monsters kind
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: of rolled up into one, which could be good if
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: done right. But, again, it just doesn't totally hammer it
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: home the way it needs to for something that's that
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: big and that much to tackle. It just, again, it
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: skips steps that it doesn't need to.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: Would it have been better if Batman had been introduced
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: before this movie?
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: Unless he was also going to be in this? Because
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: that's the thing. Had he shown up in the third
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: act and they fight? it might've saved this movie. Like
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: if that point, if by the third act, he's a
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: full on villain, like he is here, he's already murdered
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: the cop at that point. So if he's just full
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: on villain and then out of nowhere, bam, Batman walks
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: in the door and we're like, Oh, the audience loses
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: its mind. And like, we didn't know this was going
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: to have Batman. And then there's just a full on
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: fight of them at the end. I don't know. That
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 1: sounds kind of awesome. So like, if you do that
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: with it, I think it could have, you know, definitely
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: made it a much bigger deal, uh, then just sort
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: of leaving it and being like, well, and now he's
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: a villain. I hope something comes of that instead of...
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: We don't know.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: That is what it feels like at the end of
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: the movie. It's like, well, I hope we come back
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: to this at some point in the future.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: But you know what they say? We certainly could. Still
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: waiting on that Blade movie. Question mark.
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: Still waiting on Harry Styles to show up in the MCU.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: Still waiting on Brett Goldstein from Ted Lasso to show
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: up in the MCU.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: And you know what?
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: Probably like Clayface in the DCU, we're gonna keep having
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: to wait.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: Like, I just... I, you know, and that's the thing that,
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: you know, like to talk, let's talk business here for
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: a moment.
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 2: Let's talk the money of it all. Movie was a
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: rather small budget budget movie. Didn't make its budget back. Like,
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: and I don't know, it had a good rating. Like
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 2: people who went and saw it seemed to enjoy it.
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 2: It got pretty well reviewed on Rotten Tomatoes. Definitely more
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: well reviewed than Supergirl did. And I, like you said,
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: to what end, like what, what, what, What do we
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: do with any of this? Where does it go from here?
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: I think it broke even, at least, if you do worldwide.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 1: So it's at least made back its budget. So I
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: don't think it's going to be a flop, but I
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: don't know that it's going to go much further. I
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: don't think there's anything big coming out this next weekend,
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: so it still could maybe coast on another number one weekend.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: I'd say after that, it's done, because it's just not
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: going to pull in any more new viewers. But... don't
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: know like again where they're going with it I think
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: unless you're leading to something else which to me has
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: to be batman then like i don't know that you
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: can do anything else with it do we do more
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: of these villain movies and then just have the villains
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: team up and then i mean we're starting to do
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: that with venom i guess by the third one there
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: we're pulling in other weird offshoot villains that were you
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: know fighting with Spider-Man, but Spider-Man wasn't there. So I
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: guess we could try to do that with ease and
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: just start teaming up our bad guys. But does anybody
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: want that? I don't know that they do. I think
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: without Batman, it does seem like you're, you're going nowhere.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: You know, it's got to lead to something. If it's
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: going to full on decide that it's a comic book movie,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: it's going to have to end up in a comic book.
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: You know, it needs to have your big comic book
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: fight at the end or what are we doing? And
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: I think that's kind of where we end here. It's
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: just like, That was, you know, that was cool. I
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: liked it. What are we doing? Like, it still kind
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: of ends that way, so.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: They co-opted a little bit of John Wick at the
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: end of the movie. They're like, we're going to have
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: him kill people at the end of the movie in
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: a club.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: Which, I mean, is fine.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: Like, I like the idea of what this movie is.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: I don't like what this movie ends up being and
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 2: where it ends. And I'm all for having a discussion about, oh,
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: you know, the disfigurement in Hollywood and how does that
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: affect your career? Like you, you, you want to have
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: that conversation too.
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 1: And I just don't like, what are we doing here?
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: Like this, I think this movie just needed to understand
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: from itself what it wanted to be first and go
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: down a path that it chooses and not expect the
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 2: audience to kind of just sit here and go, well,
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: you're kind of doing a bunch of different things. So
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 2: I'm a, I'm a, I'm along the ride for that.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: Cause there's a little bit of Joker and a little
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: bit of this, a little bit like that. Mashing those
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: things up and expecting it to work. Sometimes it does,
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: but this time I'm just, I enjoyed it. It is different,
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: but you know, different doesn't always mean good. Different just
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: means different. And this is different, but I don't think it,
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: I don't think it gets ahead of, if I was living,
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: if I was living in a time where Thunderbolts and
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: Spider-Man hadn't come out. I think I might have a
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: different opinion, but as much as Spider-Man is a big
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: triple a piece of.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: Pop culture, it at least had a heart like that.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: It actually like kind of like dug into and same
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: with Thunderbolts. Like it had its problems, but at the
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: end of the movie, it wasn't just like a big
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 2: CGI fuck fest. Like they did something else. And this
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: movie doesn't have it at the end. It doesn't have
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: a big CGI kind of fuck fest, thankfully, but I
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: kind of, if, they had shown Clayface and not done
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: the jaws thing where apparently they couldn't show him until
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: the end.
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: Of the movie.
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: Like what, what fucking does is the Clayface origin story
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: so important? We couldn't have just skipped it altogether and
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 2: had a movie about him being Clayface. Like, and also
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: by the way, for me, yes, I appreciate that Clayface,
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: one of his abilities is like, he's able to turn
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: into other people, but that has a very short, span
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: of time that that's interesting because after a while people
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: are just going to figure out well anybody could be
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: Clayface and what fun is that like I much more
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: like the idea of Clayface being this giant monster that
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: he has to contend with less like oh well he
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: can be anybody like.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: Okay That aspect is there, but I feel like even
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: in this movie, we don't make enough use of it
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: to make it the thing. Like if that's the thing, again,
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: it's kind of the dark man of it all. It's
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: like that was kind of his move and like he
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: used that to his advantage to do what he needed
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: to do and used it like a lot that it
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: made it work in that movie. Whereas here we do
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: a little of it. We do enough to make these
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: specific parts of the scenes work. But it's not really
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: his thing because he's also doing the crazy body aspect
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: and still having issues that are kind of Clayface like,
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: but we don't fully go there till the very end. So, yeah,
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: it's like it didn't commit to one or the other
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: of those either, which I feel like that that is
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: a cool aspect. You could have in a different type
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: of story made use of that more, but it doesn't
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: really fully make use of it in this one.
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if it's because it just doesn't
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: think the audience would go along with it. where the
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: audience isn't, you know, along for the ride for a
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: character that's just kind of nasty the whole way, it
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: would have been much more interesting for him to just
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: be nasty the whole way through. And just, you know,
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 2: his exterior begins to reflect his kind of corrupted interior.
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: Like, what the fuck? And I just wrote that movie
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 1: for you, guys. That's not even original for fuck's sake.
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: In the animated series. Like, that guy sucks. Like, from
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: the time we meet him, he's already an asshole. So
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: it's just like, and he's, again, it's more like, Jekyll
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: and Hyde or Invisible Man because he's using that like
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: a weird face cream that makes his face like that
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: so he can manipulate it and go back to being
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: pretty or look like other people so he's addicted to
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: that almost and that's what he's using he needs to
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: get his fix and like so he can continue on
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: being a normal person but again he's a horrible human
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: being by the time we meet him so that is
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: already a more interesting aspect there of him not being
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: a good person and addicted to this thing that is
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: the only way he can get by in regular life.
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: And then that leads to a, again, a more interesting
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: story where we don't have any of that really with
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: this guy. He already starts off pretty imperfect and we
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: watch him go completely to the other end, but there's
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: no real connection between the two. There's no real journey.
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: It just sort of, he just gets screwed over for
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: the first third and then it jumps to him being
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: a villain. So that's, I don't know.
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: It's a weird, it's a weird journey. I think it's
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: one of those things where you, you know, they were
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 2: sitting with the notes. They're like, he has to start
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: off as more sympathetic. He has to be a really
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: good guy to start the movie. Like no one's going
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 2: to get on board if he's a villain to start with. Like,
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: did you fucking see Joker? It's, I guess my.
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: Ultimate problem with this movie.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: And I think it, you know, we've, we could say
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: this about Morbius or Madame Webb or, or Craven even
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: like these movies feel like they were made 20 fucking
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 2: years ago. And I'm saying that in terms of like
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: the way the storytelling conventions exist in, let's call it
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: conventional big budget, but not MCU movies, the MCU movies.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone would ever say an MCU movie
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: feels like a Sony movie or it feels like a, um,
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Sony as in X-Men or those
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: Spider-Man movies.
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: The offshoot Spider-Man. Right.
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: And they would never level that against Marvel. Like even
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: at Marvel's worst, they're still better than those movies are
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: at their best.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 1: My God.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: Like, and that's the thing. Like this movie is at
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: times at its best, it is interesting, but at its worst,
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: it is no good. it's, it's not as entertaining as Morbius.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: Cause at least Morbius is fun. At least Morbius is
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: fucking stupid. Like it is just dumb. Like I think
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 2: Morbius knew what it was, you know, I'm not a
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: Jared Leto fan.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: I think that's the problem is the Jared Leto. Well, sure.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, like the movie doesn't take
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 2: itself seriously. Like this movie, by the end of it,
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: it's taken itself pretty seriously. Like, and that's, there's nothing
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: wrong with that, but But like you said, to what end?
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: I don't think this guy and Batman are going to
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: have a back and forth monologue about their feelings.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: That's not ever going to happen.
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: Even when you had Thomas Hayden Church in those Spider-Man
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 2: movies as Sandman, because he did come back in that
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: other one. They didn't even know what to do with him.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 2: They cast him because he looked kind of like the
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 2: character in the comic book. That's the only reason they
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: cast him.
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: And even then, they didn't really.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: That character should have been body horror. He turns into sand.
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: That's pretty awful.
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: Seems like he would be, yeah. It's the same thing here.
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 2: It's like this guy is a big pile of sentient
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: clay or goo or mud.
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 1: What else does that need? Why couldn't it just be.
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 2: What sentience a puddle of clay is given by accident
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 2: by some sort of science? Why does it have to
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: be a human? I mean, yeah, I get the human
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: being of it all, but the human being of it all.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: Is not interesting. I've seen this before. Like you said, Dr.
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and Frankenstein, all these other things.
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 1: It's just not.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I've seen this before, done other ways,
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 2: done more interesting. And yes, this is interesting mildly because
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 2: it's a dc thing but i i think broadly you'd
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 2: be better off watching the fly because it pretty much
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: tells the same story like that's i think for it
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 2: it's that's the bar that's set very very high and
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 2: the fly is such an amazing like genuinely amazing film
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 2: that there's no reason and i'm not saying like there's
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: no reason to make this movie But you notice there
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: haven't been a lot of mobster TV shows since The
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 2: Sopranos came out.
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: You know why? Because I'm not sure there's much else
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 1: to say.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 2: And The Fly, I think, said about as much as
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 2: any film is ever going to say about a certain
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 2: kind of body horror experience. And this movie never gets
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: any further than the kind of the initial conversations had
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: in the fly. Like, this movie never gets any further
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: than that. Is it the superhero movie of it all?
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: Is it the, we're just not interested in telling that
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: kind of story of it all?
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: Probably.
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: Is it drag an otherwise interesting, possibly Mike Flanagan script down? Yes, 100%.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: It drags this movie down. Because this movie, I think,
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 2: if Mike Flanagan had followed through and gone all the
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 2: way with this and not left for Carrie or for
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 2: other things, I think this movie may have been something
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 2: where it's like, wow, can you imagine what DC is
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 2: willing to let a director with a vision do? As
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 2: opposed to, wow, this isn't shitty. Like, that's, I mean, like,
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: is that not what essentially people are saying? Like, this
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: is the third thing that's come out, and the first
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 2: thing was good. Most people thought.
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: It was good, though I have plenty of friends who
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: love Superman that didn't like that version of Superman. Whatever.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: Their choice. Supergirl, I don't think anyone's going to defend
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: that movie. It's not great.
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: And then this movie, yes, it's fine, but a lot
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: of the kind of praise on the internet, not so
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: much the critics, but the praise on the internet is like, oh,
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: this is different and interesting and not like the other things, like, okay,
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: but like like you said, to what end you can't
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: get by on that alone. And like, that is kind
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: of where seemingly a lot of the conversation on the
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: internet is like, that is enough.
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 1: And like, that is not enough. Like that's where I
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: ended on was where is again, where are we going
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: with this? Cause I, I enjoyed what I started off with.
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 1: And I, like I said, I think it does an interesting,
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: if you're going to take this shiny, perfect character and
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: just beat the hell out of him. Like it starts
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: off doing that pretty well. I think then it just
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't know what to do with him, but knows where
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: it has to be by the end and just jumps
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: to that when it needs to.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: And I, I'm not, I'm not here for that anymore.
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: Like I, I much would prefer you just commit fully.
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: And don't kind of half-ass it because half-assing it is
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: an old way of doing things. It's, oh, well, comic
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: books aren't allowed to be serious because they're comic books.
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: It's like, I mean, if you want to do a
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: serious thing, do a serious thing, but don't half-ass it.
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: Don't half-foot in, half-foot out. And that's what this movie is.
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: That's... It worked for a while until the audiences got
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 1: sick of it and decided that they wanted you to
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 1: make a decision. And you can't try to sneak one
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: under the wire now. So it doesn't have what it
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: kind of feels like when you see a movie like this.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: It's like, are you trying to sneak one out on
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: the audience? Like, you think people still want to see this?
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 2: People don't want to see we're watching it and somewhat
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: enjoying it only because there's so much of a glut
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 2: of something else that this is kind of a different taste.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 2: But this is still undercooked. It's not by any stretch
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: of the imagination, like a fully formed idea. It may
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: have even been like you added salt to something when
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: we were asking for sugar like you didn't even fucking
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 2: understand even.
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just back to my original question, which is by
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: the end, I was just like, well, where are we going? Like,
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: why did we set this up? They don't know. That
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 1: was my initial take on it. It is trying to
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: do something else, but then it's not along the way.
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: So where are we going? I don't know. As much
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: as we've had a lot of issues with it, and
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of it I feel like is mostly story-based.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: But as far as the like James Watkins of it,
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: I think it looked pretty good. Like other, I'm not
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: taking into account the effects end of it, not the
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: weird shots of body horror. I'm just talking about normal
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: shots of what we're trying to build up into Gotham,
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: what we're doing with a lot of this, a lot
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: of the stuff in the club scenes and a lot
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: of them out on the street. And he's, he's using
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: and looking, it's Rob Hardy's, the cinematographer. So I think
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of times when they're really heavily using
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: color and they're doing pretty decent stuff with, with like
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: lighting the scene. So I think it looked pretty good for,
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: for a movie of this type. They don't have to
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: do that again. I think it loses a little sometimes
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 1: when we focus more on what's going on with the
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: body or that it's arguable whether you enjoyed the way
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 1: that looked, but Some of it looked pretty good, but
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: the other stuff, I think I was more impressed with
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: just some of the basic shots of it. I think
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: it did look pretty good. No, I agree. I think
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: it looked better than Stargirl, Supergirl, which came out earlier
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: this year. I think it looked better than that, a
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: film that had a much bigger budget.
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 2: It is a stylistically interesting film. And to speak to
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: the body horror, what they did with the body horror
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 2: is kind of novel.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: We've never... really well.
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 2: And it kind of looks like Neo and the Matrix
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 2: at times, which, you know, Mr. Anderson, you can't say anything, Mr. Hagen,
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: you can't say anything. Like we have seen something like
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: that before, but I do like that again, because it's Clayface,
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: we do kind of see this somewhat different look of things.
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a moment in the film where Naomi
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 2: Aki comes around a corner and he looks fucked up. Like, and,
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: and it's, it's a scene where I'm like, what is
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 2: this hell razor all of a sudden? Like it's, It's
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: a shame because it knows how to do interesting body horror.
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't want to do it all the time.
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: But it is interesting to look at.
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 1: I will give it that.
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: It is well done in a technical sense. I think
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 2: the only thing that the film doesn't rise to is
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: the script. I think in terms of, like you said,
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 2: the look of the film, well done. And I think
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 2: it lives in a different world than Supergirl and Superman.
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: And that's important if you're trying to bolster the world
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: building through film form as opposed to other ways. Because,
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 2: you know, again, you want people, you want the most
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 2: people to interact with it in the biggest way possible.
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: And that's going to be a movie released in theaters. And,
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 2: you know, why not build some, some world? I don't
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 2: think they do a lot of it. I mean, they
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 2: kind of seemingly aren't interested in some cases, but the
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 2: amount that they do, you know, again, like this is
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 2: a world that's interesting enough.
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Like you said, I don't know to
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: what end, but... they do at least have something to
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: be going on in this world that they're building. And
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: it didn't always have that. Right.
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: It's too much like the world of our own. And like,
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 2: that's what Superman and Supergirl, at least they were not
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 2: just like our own world. Like the world of Clayface
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: just kind of seems like our world, like maybe a
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 2: little bit more like, well.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: It was a little bit more grimy. Yeah. But again,
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 1: like there are places on your neighborhood. Exactly.
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 2: There are places that are grimy here in this country.
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 2: Like it's not, yeah. So I don't know. Like it's, it,
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 2: it occupies a weird space for me because I do
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 2: appreciate where this movie is coming from, but I do
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: think that there are parts of it where I'm just like, I,
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: I think we resonate with different things in the kind
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: of movies that we are watching that are like this movie.
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 2: And I'm saying we, as in me and the filmmakers
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 2: of this movie, because I just body horror movies are
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: not conventional. And to say that this movie is conventional
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: as a body horror movie is kind of the most
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 2: insane thing you can say about it.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: Genuinely. It's again, it's just such a mixed bag. And
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 1: I think that may be part of the problem. I
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: think we don't get enough body horror movies for this
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 1: to be phoning it in. Well, I know like where,
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 1: where do you think you're going with it when you
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: don't know what it is that it's going to be?
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: Like I said, if we show up for terrifier, like
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: people show up for people being dismembered with chainsaws and
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 2: it made more money than this movie did. Like, what
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 2: are we doing here? Like audiences will show up. For weird, perverse, subversive.
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: Shit, stop being afraid.
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 2: I genuinely feel like if they had made Clayface, if
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 2: someone had said, okay, James Gunn, make your version of Clayface,
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 2: it would not have looked anything like this movie. I
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 2: genuinely don't think this movie would look anything like this.
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 2: I don't even think this movie would have been made, frankly.
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: Well, it would have had a very different tone because, again,
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 1: I think he would have leaned into any of the
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 1: other aspects heavier than Like if it was going to
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: be dark, it would be dark. If it was going
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: to be a funnier take on it, he would do that.
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: Like he usually knows where he's going with this stuff.
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: And I think that's that's the thing. He's like he's
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: busy running the big picture now. So he's got to
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 1: hand it off to other people when he's getting to
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: the other non main movies that are getting made. And
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: like he that he just doesn't get to make that
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: call anymore. And by the time it gets there, it's
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: somebody else is just sort of thrown some other stuff together.
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: And it's again, at times it comes together pretty well,
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: but overall it's still kind of leaves a little to
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: be desired.
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 2: I think if James Gunn, like you said, had done
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 2: this now, it would have been something else entirely in
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 2: a different kind of film.
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: And it's very funny to me.
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 2: The thing that genuinely cracks me up is this movie
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: gets made because of Mike Flanagan. And Mike Flanagan's success
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 2: and like genuine, like think about Mike Flanagan 2021 versus
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 2: Mike Flanagan now.
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: Like he's drastically in a different world now, like in
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: terms of his visibility, in terms of his success, in
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 1: terms of his like viability as a director. Recognizability. Like
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: he is a name even to people who didn't know
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 1: who he was then, you know, he has become such
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 1: a name in like horror and specifically streaming horror now
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 1: that like, regular people know that name now and will
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 1: seek out whatever he's working on. So yeah, he's definitely
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 1: like the reason this got made.
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 2: Horror maestro Mike Flanagan is how they should have sold
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 2: this movie. And I would have been even more disappointed
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 2: watching this movie. It's like that Jordan.
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 1: Peele Twilight Zone.
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 2: It's like, it's a little bit of a bait and switch. Like, yeah,
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 2: I can see the Mike Flanagan here, but I can
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 2: also see the like, overwhelmingly shitty DC stuff that I
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: really don't like about DC, like that I've never liked
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: about DC. But what's funny is the things I didn't
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 2: like in Superman and Supergirl are not the things I
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 2: didn't like in this movie. The things I didn't like
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 2: in this movie are just indicative of five years ago,
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: like genuinely like five. years ago might not seem like
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 2: a long time, but in terms of the taste of
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 2: filmgoers and the way films are being made, if you
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 2: go from five years before 2021, you're talking really fucking.
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: Different expectations of people. Yeah.
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing. Like, it's not that long ago
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 2: that we... we're watching a film like Avengers age of Ultron.
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 2: Like that's how, you know, that was, that's been in
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 2: the last like 10, 11 years that we've been watching
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 2: something like that in terms of like the most traditional,
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 2: like forward thinking fucking having to be beholden to some bullshit.
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 1: Nobody wants.
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: And like, we're not, it's not like that anymore. Like
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 2: a superhero movie can be self contained even.
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 1: And, It's yeah. I really wish we could see what
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 1: this movie looked like in a 2026 version.
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: And it's, I think a shame that this movie doesn't
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: exist in that format, but at the same time, like
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: the version we got.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's interesting. And that's entertaining. Yeah.
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 2: It's interesting and entertaining, but it could have been so
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 2: much more and it's not. And I think, you know,
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 2: it's missed opportunity, but yeah. Is it better than the
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: last DC thing I saw for sure. Supergirl is just
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 2: going to be part of one of those things that
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 2: gets dragged a lot, right? Like it's, you know, it's,
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it doesn't or does deserve it, but
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 2: it's just, it was that kind of all over the place.
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 2: And at least this movie is not that all over
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: the place. Like, yeah, I didn't vibe with it as
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: much as I wanted to, as much as a body
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: horror movie coming out in theaters should be, because again,
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 2: that's not a thing.
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 1: It's just not like, I don't get to go see
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: the new body horror movie every year in theaters. Like
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: it is a real rarity, but you know what?
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 2: Like if maybe there's another clay face movie and it
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: comes on theaters, I might line up as well. Cause
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: body horror movies don't come around all that often.
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 1: And again, I like the character as he is in
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 1: the end of this movie. So it's like, if, if
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 1: all we get is just a big clay monster from
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 1: this point on, I'm fine with that. Cause I like
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: that character in the animated version. So like, if you can,
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 1: translate that and make it as entertaining as he is
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: in that form in a movie where he also fights Batman. Like, yeah,
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 1: I'm on board with that. Like, that sounds awesome. So
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 1: it's definitely got potential in another version of it. It
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 1: just doesn't need to be more of this. Like we've
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 1: seen this, it's done all it can do with this.
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: I think it needs to just be something different when
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 1: it moves forward. And I'm fine with him just being
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: a big clay monster at this point.
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 2: I know that we all think that like, well, nobody
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 2: knows this character. So we need his origin story. Have
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 2: we ever thought nobody knows his character? So what the
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 2: fuck's the point.
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: Of an origin story? Just give us Clayface. Just give
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: us Clayface as like a giant monster. Like I don't
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 1: really give a shit about him as a human.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 2: And maybe it's cause you know, Thomas Reese Harry's doesn't
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 2: want to play a giant dude in a fucking monster
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 2: practical or CGI suit.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 1: But, um, okay. Then this role ain't for you, man. Like,
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's very funny.
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 2: Um, he's not that disfigured in this movie. Like even
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: when he's disfigured, he's not really that disfigured. Like it's just,
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: you know, he's ugly.
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 2: But Jesus Christ, like he's fucking dark man's uglier. Dark
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 2: man's like a mummy, like a skeleton man. Like this is,
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 2: you know, he's just, you know, I've had my fuck
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 2: fucking face fucked up.
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 1: Okay. Sure. Happens to more people than I think you
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 1: would think Matt Hagen. Yeah. Yeah. It's a sad story
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: at that point, but, At a, again, I don't know
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 1: that it, it just doesn't know where to go unless
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: it heads down the road that it does, which leads
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 1: to problems. Yeah.
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I, uh, I'm glad we watched it and
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 2: it's been an interesting year for mainstream horror, but.
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 1: What a fucking, you know, at least there was no
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: popcorn bucket, I guess. Are you sure? I don't know.
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's a popcorn bucket for everything. That's true. Actually, no,
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 1: there is because it's, I was talking about it the
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: other day. It is a, it's shaped like a regular
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: popcorn bucket, but there is a hand coming up out
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: of the bucket. That's right. There is. Is one, because
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 1: I saw a picture of it. God damn it. They
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: didn't have it at the theater when I went, but no,
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: I saw a picture of it. Oh, there are several
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 1: popcorn buckets. I take that. Of course there is. God
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: damn it. You know what? I just, you know what?
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 2: Here, make me a promise that we will at least
• 2:12:30
  Speaker 2: keep getting popcorn buckets until The Mummy 4 comes out,
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 2: and I'll be able to buy a popcorn bucket for.
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 1: The Mummy 4, and then you can stop making them.
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: Then I don't care anymore. I don't know that they're
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 1: stopping anytime soon because each movie coming out has a
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 1: more elaborate, crazy bucket. Like I said, they didn't have
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: that bucket for Clayface when I went. But as I
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: walked past, the only thing I saw was a giant,
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 1: I'm talking like 16-inch version of Ghostface. Yeah. And I'm like,
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 1: there isn't even a Ghostface movie out right now.
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 2: I think Scream is back in theaters for like a
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 2: Halloween run.
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 1: It must be. So all the nerds can have a
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 1: giant Ghostface. I'm not saying I didn't buy one the
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: first time I did this, because I did. I have
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 1: the Ghostface one, the original Ghostface one. I did too.
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: Because I thought it was going to be the only one.
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 2: Me too.
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: That's the first time I saw one of those like that.
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, that's cool. I want a
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: Ghostface one. bust, which is essentially what it is. So yeah,
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: it's like, I get it. I'm enough of a geek
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: that I want to run out and get that stuff.
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 1: But I'm just like, then they got so out of
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 1: control that I'm just like, I can't keep up anymore.
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not going down that road. Just stop.
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: Just stop making them. Or at least stop expecting me
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 1: to buy them. I watched a.
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 2: Guy ranking them on YouTube and there were 85 that
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 2: came out last year.
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 1: 85. five fucking crazy. Jesus Christ.
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a factory in China somewhere that is
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 2: just fucking just, they're like, we are so glad that
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 2: people in the United States want a piece of fucking
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 2: plastic that will just sit in a closet somewhere.
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 1: Soon we will just be a mountain of plastic popcorn
• 2:14:15
  Speaker 1: buckets as we disintegrate into the pile. That's right. That
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: will be the world that we live in.
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 2: I just want a popcorn bucket for the upcoming film, Ass.
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 2: And that's all it was for an hour and 45
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 2: minutes was just an ass on screen with an ass
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 2: popcorn bucket.
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, is this directed by Yoko Ono? Wait a minute.
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 1: I think this exists.
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm not surprised that there's a Clayface popcorn bucket.
• 2:14:41
  Speaker 2: But my point is a different one about popcorn buckets
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 2: and movies in general. We live in a time now
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 2: where it's like, you gotta have an angle. You gotta
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 2: have a reason. You gotta have a thing. And this
• 2:14:53
  Speaker 2: movie thing was body horror.
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 1: And I think it's broadly.
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 2: Successful for the mainstream body horror crowd, but it's not
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 2: made for people like yourself and myself who have seen
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 2: all of the movies that this movie is very clearly
• 2:15:07
  Speaker 2: inspired by. My hope, hope against hope, is that if
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 2: you watch this movie, you go watch The Fly, or
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 2: you go watch The Thing, or you go watch a whole, or,
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 2: you know, any number of body horror movies.
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: Because those are the movies that this movie.
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 2: Is inspired by that are so much better than this movie.
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 2: And if this is your gateway to that, awesome. But this,
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 2: for me, is like a I've said this before about things.
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 2: This is a cul-de-sac in terms of where do you
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 2: go from here? To answer your question, Brian, nowhere.
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 1: Genuinely. Right back the way we came in. Right back
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 1: at the way we came in. Up to Videodrome. And
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 1: when you get there, you'll be like, oh, this is
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 1: what I was looking for. Too heady. It's too heady.
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 2: I feel like you watch Videodrome and you're like, where's
• 2:15:50
  Speaker 2: the dumb shit? And it's like, well, this is not
• 2:15:52
  Speaker 2: that kind of- That's why.
• 2:15:52
  Speaker 1: You gotta graduate up there. You take your substance and
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 1: you get your steps till you get to that. And
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: then you get all the way up to Videodrome and
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 1: you're just like, all right, I'm here. Is Videodrome the top?
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, is that like the top of the mountain?
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 1: When I saw it, yeah. I was just kind of,
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 1: this is what I want. Like, this is, if I
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 1: want weird- top tier body horror that's my go-to so
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 1: yeah for me i think it was yeah i.
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 2: Mean cronenberg you know you can't dethrone the king and
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 2: cronenberg i think look body horror and you know you
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 2: you tell me if i'm wrong here and i think
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 2: this is probably as we kind of bring this episode
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 2: to a close i think as a body horror fan
• 2:16:29
  Speaker 2: as i don't want to assume you are but i've
• 2:16:31
  Speaker 2: seen a lot of them and i consider myself a
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 2: body horror fan the best ones are done practically You
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 2: can't really do this shit in CGI. And like, you know,
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: that's great. I do think there was probably some practical
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 2: effects in this movie, but a lot of it seems
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 2: like CGI. And, you know, I get it. Michael Rooker
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 2: in a giant tentacle suit in Slither looked kind of goofy,
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 2: but it is still good.
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 1: But it was real. And it's real. It was tactical.
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 2: And this movie didn't have that. And I think that that's,
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 2: for me, what this movie needed.
• 2:17:04
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 2: I know that this has been really popular. Why not
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 2: do a 90s, like liminal horror movie with Clayface and
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: have it be, you know, I don't know, like Mimic,
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 2: like the film Mimic, but with Clayface in it where
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 2: it's like, we don't know what the villain is and
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 2: have the villain be removed from everything and have Clayface
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 2: just be the villain of the movie. Even go one
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 2: step further. Maybe you remember this movie. I mean, I
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 2: know some people do, but... The film The Watcher with
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 2: Keanu Reeves, make it like that, but with Clayface as
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 2: a serial killer who can just live forever like tombs
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 2: from the X-Files.
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 1: Make it a period piece in the 90s. Make it
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 1: a period piece in the 70s or 80s.
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 2: Why are you taking what is obviously the most obvious
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 2: way to do this so obvious that.
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 1: They already did it in the comic book that way?
• 2:17:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And like you said, they did it in the
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 2: TV show way better because, yeah, they were given plenty
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 2: of time, even if it was.
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 1: Just like the animated version. So that's that's the way
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: to go. If you want to see this, just go
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 1: watch those episodes. You're all set.
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 2: You will always be competing with the animated version of Batman,
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned, in terms of actually doing
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 2: the characters right. Sure, there are good Batman movies, but
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 2: the TV show is the quintessential and I think definitive
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 2: version of Batman, as most people know it, myself included,
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 2: because I grew up on it, genuinely grew up on it.
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 1: And it gets every aspect of it. It gets the
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 1: tone and it gets the city, like the Gotham of
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 1: it all is like perfect and universal and like everything
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 1: fits in that world and it just makes sense. but
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 1: only in that world. Like it exists in its own
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 1: weird Batman world. And like, that's what you want from
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: a Batman movie. And like, it gets that perfectly on
• 2:18:49
  Speaker 1: the animated series. Like nothing really gets to that point.
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 1: You get probably pretty close with the Tim Burton, which again,
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 1: it it's inspired by the Tim Burton movie. So it's like,
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 1: it's what led to that series. But I think it
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 1: even took it up a notch from the, the Tim Burton.
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 1: Cause the Tim Burton would, you know, have moments that
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 1: don't work, but like, think it comes together so perfectly
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 1: in that animated series and like so many of the
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 1: villains are such great sympathetic characters but it again it
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 1: does it in 22 minutes where they're not the focus
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 1: of even that entire 22 minutes so like it just
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 1: gives you the important part of that story that makes
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 1: them a sympathetic character and And then Batman shows up
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 1: and they fight at the end, which is what you want.
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 1: So it's like, these are the things that are kind
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 1: of missing from this. This is a very long version
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 1: of that story. And at the end, Batman doesn't show
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 1: up and punch him in the face. So like, we're
• 2:19:43
  Speaker 1: still kind of left longing for these things when we
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 1: get to the end of this movie.
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 2: I am a board game guy. And do you know
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 2: how many fucking versions there are of Batman board games
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 2: that are based on the Batman animated series?
• 2:19:57
  Speaker 1: Damn near all of them are based on... Rightfully so.
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 1: And yeah, exactly.
• 2:20:01
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know what that animated series was? It
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 2: was a vehicle to tell villain stories with Batman in them.
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know what? I don't think.
• 2:20:10
  Speaker 2: I don't think there is a better character's villains than Batman. Like, yeah,
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 2: Spider-Mans are fine, but Batman is the mountaintop of villain characters.
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 1: Like, period.
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 2: Like, Batman has the best villains. Marvel has the best heroes. Batman,
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 2: and Batman specifically, has the best villains of any character.
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 2: superhero character, period. His are so well-known, so ubiquitous that
• 2:20:33
  Speaker 2: everybody knows the Joker. I say the Joker, and you
• 2:20:36
  Speaker 2: have eight different people vying for that role, and two
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 2: or three of them are genuinely performances that cement themselves
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 2: as ones that are worth talking about in a long
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 2: kind of format, but that's all a Batman thing.
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 1: That's I don't know.
• 2:20:52
  Speaker 2: I think about so many board games that have come
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 2: out in the last couple of years that are Batman
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 2: animated series or things that have come out that are
• 2:20:58
  Speaker 2: Batman animated series.
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 1: They continue.
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 2: I want to say they continue the Batman animated series
• 2:21:03
  Speaker 2: story in a comic book, even like that sounds about right.
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 2: Like it's just, it has a lot of love because
• 2:21:09
  Speaker 2: it is literally an anthology series with Batman villains that
• 2:21:14
  Speaker 2: Batman just happens.
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 1: To be in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 2: And just because it's a cartoon does not draw away
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 2: from the level of writing and the quality.
• 2:21:23
  Speaker 1: Of the acting. Like, it doesn't. Like, it holds up
• 2:21:26
  Speaker 1: better than anything else. It does.
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 2: It almost makes me sad, like, and, you know, not to, again,
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 2: drag James Gunn any further than we have, but I
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 2: don't even know if DC really needs live action movies
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 2: when their cartoon movies are so good.
• 2:21:40
  Speaker 1: Like, I mean, it's the one thing they consistently did well, yeah.
• 2:21:44
  Speaker 2: They've been pumping out these cartoon movies like forever now,
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 2: and they're consistently really well done, and they have really
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 2: great voice actors, both for the heroes.
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 1: And the villains.
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 2: Like, not saying don't do live action movies, but they
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 2: haven't really been working out for you in a connected capacity.
• 2:22:00
  Speaker 2: Maybe just do standalone. Does DC have to be connected?
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 1: No.
• 2:22:04
  Speaker 2: You can actually just be the ones that are doing
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 2: standalone stuff, which is fine. And, yeah, that's I think
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 2: if this were a standalone thing, I would be much
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 2: more interested in seeing where it goes from here. But
• 2:22:17
  Speaker 2: like you said, given what this is and what's coming, hopefully,
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 2: maybe theoretically next, I'm not sure I really care because
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 2: I don't think this has any, like this feels more
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 2: at odds with what's been established before than Deadpool is
• 2:22:32
  Speaker 2: with what he is expected to be in, in the MCU.
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And at least his movie told its own
• 2:22:39
  Speaker 1: story where this feels like it's just set up for
• 2:22:41
  Speaker 1: somebody else's story that he can then come back and
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 1: be involved in because now we know the backstory. Whereas
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 1: Deadpool was his own movie. Like he fully had his
• 2:22:51
  Speaker 1: own story throughout it. And then you can throw him
• 2:22:56
  Speaker 1: in wherever you want, but like, it doesn't feel like
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: it's a missing piece of a puzzle. Whereas this is
• 2:23:00
  Speaker 1: just part of the puzzle that, But it's not the
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 1: whole thing. It still needs other aspects for it to
• 2:23:07
  Speaker 1: work right. Yeah. No, I totally agree.
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 2: And I wish this movie was more, but I get
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 2: why it's not. Because at the end of the day,
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 2: it is a superhero movie. And you are going to
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 2: have people that are showing up that have expectations that
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 2: are not real. going to leave happy if you don't
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 2: at least somewhat meet those expectations, no matter how kind
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 2: of pedantic and really unnecessary those expectations are. So, so
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 2: if you want to hear Brian and I talk about
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 2: things that we liked, you can listen to us covering
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 2: the first four episodes of camp crystal Lake, or I
• 2:23:49
  Speaker 2: guess it's called crystal Lake over at a weirdingwaymedia.com where
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 2: this show Culture Meltdown, Brian's show, Movie Meltdown, and my show,
• 2:23:57
  Speaker 2: The Culture Cast, can be found. You're listening to this
• 2:23:59
  Speaker 2: show either on his feed or on my feed. And
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 2: there's plenty of shows on his feed that don't have
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 2: me and plenty of shows on my feed that don't
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 2: have him, and you know where to find them. So yeah, weirdingwaymedia.com
• 2:24:09
  Speaker 2: is where you can go. Don't go to Spreaker. They
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 2: don't give us enough money for me to pimp them anymore,
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 2: so I'm not going to. We are hosted on their website,
• 2:24:16
  Speaker 2: but we don't even have... a need to go to
• 2:24:19
  Speaker 2: their website anymore. You can go to our website, weirdingwaymedia.com.
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 2: Mike made it.
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 1: It looks great.
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 2: Listen to our podcast there. If you want to listen
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 2: on iTunes and Spotify, do it in that order. Like, rate,
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 2: and review the show on iTunes and Spotify because there's
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 2: no way to do it on our website. Just come
• 2:24:34
  Speaker 2: to our website. That's good enough for us. And yeah,
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 2: come on back when Brian and I talk about more
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 2: Crystal Lake because we've got to finish that show.
• 2:24:42
  Speaker 1: And then beyond that, No more superhero movies before the
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 1: end of the year, thankfully.
• 2:24:47
  Speaker 2: So we're kind of done with being in superhero purgatory,
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 2: which I felt like some years I was in a
• 2:24:53
  Speaker 2: lot longer than others.
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 1: So I'll take it. So, yeah. And as always, we'll
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 1: catch you on the next episode.