Latest / Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast / Positive breech vaginal hospital delivery, true surrender, bonding struggles, and the “midwife OB”

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Positive breech vaginal hospital delivery, true surrender, bonding struggles, and the “midwife OB” · Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast

• Merelise: Before we dive into today's episode, I want to talk to you about something incredibly close to my heart, and that's maternal health. I've spoken a lot about my own experiences on this podcast, especially related to mental health, and how important it is to seek help, whether through therapy or medicine. But we all know that's easier said than done. That's where Mère comes in, a virtual maternal health care clinic serving women from preconception through menopause. Mère was founded by a mom, just like you or me. Who struggled to find the support she needed during her own maternal health journey and wanted to create a better experience for other women. Mère brings together therapists, women's health providers, and pelvic floor specialists who understand the unique challenges women face throughout motherhood. Mère believes women deserve care that looks at the whole picture, not just one symptom or one appointment at a time. Book a free 15-minute phone call today and learn more at Mère-ForEveryChapter.com. That's Mère M-E-R-E dash for every chapter dot com. Merelise Wilson: Hello and welcome to the Arrivals Podcast. I'm your host, Merelise Wilson and today I am so excited to welcome Ellie to the podcast. Ellie is an amazing mama who had a vaginal breech delivery, and I'm just so excited for you guys to hear her story and for her to share it with you. So welcome, Ellie. Hi! Glad to be here. Hello, hello. our mutual friend Rachel Stockwell connected us, the chiropractor who's been on my podcast before. And I remember when I first told her I was gonna do this podcast, she was like, Do you have anyone on who's had a breech vaginal delivery? And I was like, No, they're really hard to find. And she was like, Okay, I've got someone for you. Yeah. And she introduced us via email. And I was so excited when you said you were open to coming on and talking about it. Yeah, well, I remember when I Found out my daughter was breech, like at the very end when it mattered. I had wished so bad I knew somebody or could be in contact with somebody who had a breech vaginal delivery. And I didn't. And really the only thing I could do was find breech delivery videos, usually like in Europe, which was not always comforting to watch. So I had wished I had had this. When I was pregnant, so that's why I really wanted to do it. I appreciate that so much. I know that you will help someone out there. I guess maybe before we even get to the breech of it all, tell us a little bit about what your plans were for delivery before you found out your daughter was breech So I would say I'm like definitely the super crunchy type and wanted to have the most Natural unmedicated birth that I could have. Like I just didn't want interference. I didn't want like, you know, one small thing turning into a huge big thing for an unnecessary reason. So I ideally I would have done a home birth if I could have, but the goal was eventually to transfer to the birth center. I just felt like I don't know, having a home birth might be like more work than having to set it all up myself and clean up the mess. So it's like, let's just do the birth center. That sounds good. So that was the original birth. plan. although I did start at just like my regular OBGYN's office, just like for convenience, they were like right up the street. I loved the people who I was with there. So that's what I originally had intended to do was birth center. And I know you said you were kind of crunchy, but was there anything in particular that like spoke to you or anything you had read about wanting to have like a low intervention birth, or was it just like a gut feeling? Think I was surrounded by a lot of home birth advocates. My pelvic floor PT had had done she had done two home births. you know, Dr. Rachel has home births. And so like I just I knew a lot of people. And then on top of that, like just incidentally, not that it's everybody's experience, but so many, in fact, almost every person that I had talked to who had had a hospital delivery, mm shared their horror story with it. And I'm just like, okay, there's like a clear line in the sand between the people who are having home births or at the birth center and having these amazing experiences, or at least just more like relaxed experiences, not necessarily like the greatest thing of their life, but not they didn't leave. Traumatized. Yeah. And so yeah, whereas the hospital ones, it's like, my gosh, can you spare me the details of that? So I think that was like the biggest influence of why. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. So you're planning like you're you're pregnant and you're planning for a delivery at the birth center. Yes. So that was the case. So I and then my the nurse practitioner who I was seeing at my regular OB's office, she had also had a home birth. And she had a home birth with twins too. And her experience prior to the job like being a nurse practitioner, she was a labor and delivery nurse at like a one of the hospitals around here. I don't know which one. But like The fact that she even too chose to have home birth with twins also kind of spoke to me and I just felt like she didn't push me one way or the other, but like she was very supportive of my decision to want to be at the birth center. So yeah, I did the anatomy scan with them, you know, found out the gender, did the gender reveal all that, and did the you know, gestational diabetes test, whatever. made sure we passed all that, just made sure everything was good and I was still like low risk by all. means that we could see. And then I transferred over to the birth center. Lovely experience. Loved the midwives. They were amazing. I felt like just so comfortable with them. yeah, and so actually before the ultrasound I had, it was like a for fun ultrasound, just before I transferred to the birth center, the nurse practitioner, she's like, well She's breech right now, but don't even worry about it. There's plenty of time for it to flip. Like, seriously, don't freak out. And I actually didn't. I was like, whatever. It's like twenty some odd weeks. Yeah. Like, who cares? Right. There's so much time. And I think some of my babies were still breech at that point. Yeah. And I honestly didn't know what that would mean in practical terms. So like My ignorance didn't allow me to freak out. Ignorance can be bliss. Ignorance is bliss for me in a lot of cases. So I was just like, okay, cool, whatever. But then like I also had this nagging feeling that wasn't gonna go away. Like, even though I didn't fully understand what it again practically meant that that would be like an automatic C section, I just yeah, I yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So at what point did that like reality start to set in? So I go to the birth center, no cares in the world. I did ask them to like feel around to s to like because they don't do ultrasounds as like routine. They only do it at like specific points. There's no like for fun ultrasounds there. and so I was like, Can you just like feel around and tell me like if you think the baby's in a breech position? And one of them was like, No, because I I don't want you to freak out. Yeah. And like that's just gonna cause you undue stress. And I'm like, okay. And then the other one was like, Yeah, I feel it. I think they're in a normal position. Sure, whatever, fine. so then at 36 weeks, that's when they do their routine ultrasound of like baby positioning. And she, the midwife she had the ultrasound piece on the bottom and there was nothing. Which normally they would expect to see a big old noggin. Yes. So she had that down there, had that down there. I'm having this moment where I feel totally embarrassed for her 'cause I'm like, this lady can't do her job. That's so embarrassing. I'm so glad I'm not her right now. And then she moves it up to the top and there's a head. And I'm like, no, she can totally do her job. My baby's breech. So yeah, that's when we found out and that she that she was breech. And in that moment, like, did you what did you think? I was panicked at that point, to be honest, because again, so now they're telling me, they're like, well, so your baby's breech. So you have like three options. You can try to do everything that you can to get it flipped, or you can go see. She's like, there's there's one doctor in town that might still be in practice. I don't know, but he can deliver breech babies. And we can reach out to him and see if that's an option for you. If he'll take you as a late transfer. or third option is we just schedule you a C section right now, Grady. Yeah. So those are my three options. So initially, what was you what were you thinking you were gonna pursue? I'm a fix-it type of person. So I wanted to do everything I could to get the baby flipped. To give myself the best chance to stay on the track that I was on, which is natural delivery. natural vaginal delivery in a non-hospital atmosphere. and that was, I guess, another option that I could have done. I could there are some midwives that will come to your home and that are, I guess, certified to or knowledgeable about how to deliver a breech baby, but as it was my first baby. as it was so late in the game, as it was something I just wasn't planning for, when I really came down to it, I just wasn't comfortable with that. it's a lot to coordinate too. I imagine it would kind of be a mad rush at that point to like to not only switch from a a birth center birth to a home birth, but then also like have to find a very specific mi like midwife who's qualified to do this and yeah, that's it's a lot that's a lot to take in in a short amount of time. It is. And I think if I had been working with that midwife from the beginning and built a relationship of trust, I probably would have felt more comfortable, but I didn't. Yeah. It's like kind of just shot in the dark, so I didn't I decided not to do that. But I did do like the prenatal Maya massages, I think they're what they're called. There's a woman who she rents a space at the birth center. she does like different types of prenatal massages and s she'll also specifically do some type of like breech to to flip the baby. and she actually wasn't I was not the only person with a breech baby that she was working with at the time and all those other babies did flip. my God. I think I was the only one that was with her that it didn't. Wow. So I did that and then so what they suggested too was an ECV. Mm-hmm. I forget what that stands for, but it's like basically when You go and MFM, I think is what they're called. They paternal fetal specialists. Yes. They try to flip the baby from the outside of the belly. And again, my ignorance is what got me in the door. I like I just didn't know what to expect. I heard it's really painful, but I'm like, well, how painful could it be? It's like on the outside. Right. So on the inside. You were like, I was planning on giving birth without drugs. Yeah. So like I'll be fine. How kid how'd that kid be? Yeah. No, it was It was extremely painful. That's what I've heard. Yeah. I don't regret doing it. I'm actually very glad I did it. so just to like kind of give some background on the ECV, because I I had done some research online and I got a lot of conflicting information, like it had to be in the hospital, they give you pain medication, all these things. That was not my experience. So what happened with me is at week 37 is when they set me up with a doctor, had to drive Quite a distance to get to this one because n there weren't any locally available within that very narrow window of opportunity that you have to flip the baby. So I drove out, yeah, like probably an hour outside of town, met with a doctor, and his office was like connected to the hospital. Like it was like n right next to it. Yeah. So he's like, We don't need to be in a hospital setting. We're not gonna give you any drugs. We're just gonna do this right here, right now, if if you're okay with it. 'cause I wasn't planning for that. I thought I was going in for a consultation and they were just gonna tell me where and when to be and how to prepare. Yeah. He's like, No, no, no. We're just gonna do this right now if you're okay with it. So yeah, I was in the office with them and I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna do it. Let's just go for it. Was your husband there or was it He was and I remember when the doctor said, 'cause I I had been like Very indecisive throughout this whole process. I'm just kind of an indecisive person. And when the doctor was like, No, it's it's right now. This is not a consultation. This is this is your ECV. My husband had this moment where he's like, no, she's she's not gonna do it today. We're gonna have to come back. Anyway, so I was like, Yeah, sure, let's do it. Why not? Let's go. So I don't know, had a moment of positivity in my mind. Yeah. So yeah, he was like You're going to just lay back there. We're gonna hook up an ultrasound machine. And it's an extremely detailed ultrasound machine, like way more than your standard OBs office. A lot more information. And they there's like a tech holding the ultrasound while he's doing it. Yeah. He basically puts his fist in the bottom of my belly and his other fist at the top. And I then understood why that is so painful. Yeah, he and and that was the other thing. He was like, We basically just go until you tell me to stop. Yeah. So, so yeah, he started that and it was completely unsuccessful. she moved because that was the other thing. He g he went into the whole like some babies will flip really easily, but then they flip right back. some babies won't move at all. My baby moved. He said like very little. And he also said that I let him get to about an eight out of ten on intensity level. So he's like, I wouldn't recommend. Pursuing this further, she's not moving. So could you see it on the ultrasound? Like could you see any of the movement? I wasn't paying attention to it. I was trying to like use my natural birth coping techniques. Your breathing. The breathing, all of that, trying to focus on my husband, trying to just get through it. So I I don't have any memor memory of that. And then so when he so when you eventually called like uncle. When you and and like called it off, th then like what happened? I know sometimes like they want you to be in the hospital in case you go into labor, because sometimes it can induce contractions. Was it just for you? It just was like, okay. No, they just let me go. Yeah. I I I don't know so that's like kind of the stuff I was reading online and why it was confusing to me. My experience was a lot more casual than Some other people's experiences. I I don't know why specifically. It may have been his location. It may have been the type of doctor it was. I don't know. Yeah. All I know is I liked that it was low commitment. Mm-hmm. You know, I didn't have to be a like a hospital patient. Yeah. You didn't have to check in. Yeah. It was just you show up, they do it, okay, it didn't work. Cause I guess that was the other thing. I'm pr I'm if if I remember correctly, he was saying that. If it isn't successful, but we make a lot of progress, then that is an option of going to the hospital. But mine was such a failure. Yeah. That's a bad way to put it. But like it was so it was so not gonna work that he's like, there's just no reason to pursue this. So at that point, what were you thinking? So I had a actual consultation set up for that only doctor in town. Yeah. Who can deliver breech babies and he's still in practice, was at the time, I believe he still is now too. Dr. Tate, he I had a consultation set up with him the next day. And I remember the MFM said to me, he was like, So are you guys just gonna do the C-section? And I was like, No, there and I told him about the doctor. I didn't mention a name. And he's like, Is it Dr. Tate? Yeah. I was like, it is actually. I'm going to go see him tomorrow or the next day. And he started to talk and then he paused and then backtracked. He's like, Do you want my advice? I was like, sure. I'm open to hearing anything. I don't have to listen to you. I don't have to take it. Yes. But I'd love to hear what you have to say. Yeah. And he was like, There's a reason we don't do breech births anymore, breech vaginal births. He's like, It's just too dangerous. I wouldn't do it. I I would absolutely go with the C section. Okay, thanks. So that's your opinion, yeah. That's your opinion. I think my husband was a little rattled with the whole thing. You know, it's it's hard on the husbands. Yeah, it is. You know, a lot of people only talk about the mom. Like the husbands have a hard time with this too, if they're very involved with it. So he was definitely like, I don't know if we should go through with this consultation tomorrow. And I'm like, it's just a consultation. Right. I want to hear what he has to say. Right. Because there's no way that he has been delivering babies for as long as he have. without being sued or something. Right. You know, i if he was doing something cavalier, there would have been a stop to it a long time ago. Yes. So I wanna hear how he mitigates the risk of breech. So I think that's a really good way to look at it. And he is he is kind of legendary. He is like the only one in Atlanta who does who will do this. Yeah. Yeah. So we went through with our consultation as scheduled. In being total truthful, I was in for the rudest awakening. I had been very used to being coddled by the midwives at the birth center. They were so sweet, so gentle, and can't say Dr. Tate was the same. Especially because at this point I'm 38 weeks pregnant, you know? I'm 38 weeks like. So we go in, I do a consultation with him, and he's very like Up front. He he's not begging me to be his patient. He's not trying to get me to come to his practice. I almost got the impression he was maybe trying to scare me away a little. Like wanna see if I'm actually dedicated and determined to have yeah, serious about this. He doesn't know who I am. Right. So yeah, we did the consultation. I asked all my questions, you know, can I have like some low-lighting, calm. Birth experience. Can I be in any position I want? Is there gonna be a lot of people in the room? To that question, I can't get out of my mind. He's I when I asked him, will there be a lot of people in the room? And he said, So many I could sell tickets. I remember the first time he told me that. my God. That was that was it in a nutshell, my experience with him. So it was gonna be no, you can't be in any position you want. I need to have the upper edge. This is not a routine. He didn't say it wasn't a routine birth, but I got his I got his message. Right. He was like, if you want to do this, you're gonna have to do it my way. So yeah, it's interesting 'cause it's like you you you have to kinda decide what your priorities are. Like you're you're trading off you're you s might still get your vaginal birth that you want, but you're foregoing a lot of like the vibes and the preferred environment and all of that stuff that you had envisioned. Yes. Yes, the whole birth plan pretty much was going out the window at that point. But I would get my vaginal delivery, which I I would say I was gonna say, I don't know why that's so important, but that's not true. I absolutely know why that's so important to me. Cause like so that's the other thing, is when you have a situation like a breech baby, everybody wants to give you their two cents, which can be helpful and sometimes it's not helpful. Yeah. So the majority of people like looked at me with either pity of like, that sucks. I'm really glad I'm not you. or like they looked at me kind of like, what's the big deal? Just get the C section. Yeah. Like why why is this even a conversation? Right. and I guess to me it's like, I get I feel like birth belong like my birth belonged to me. My baby's birth belonged to me. And it felt like unless this is a life-saving situation, I don't want to be cut open and have someone else do that for me. You know? Yeah. That was just my choice. So that's why it was so important to me that I guess I still went through with it, with the breech of vaginal. And I guess too, I just didn't want to have to be recovering from a surgery. Yeah. Like, and I I was very grateful for that after the fact, you know, like fast forwarding to the very end after she was out, like They're like, alright, come over to the bathroom and I just get up and walk, right? You know, there was no issue with that. Mm-hmm. So once he officially accepted you as a patient, then what? Like was there any protocol he recommended you follow? Or is he just like, we're gonna like do this? Like, were you d did he want you to go into labor naturally? Like I what were the next steps? So he After the consultation, I asked him, I'm like, what's like my deadline to make a decision here? Cause this is just still everything happened so fast. My whole birth plan went upside down in a week at the very end. So I just needed some time to think about it. And as I I'm an indecisive person. So he said, The sooner the better. If you go into labor, don't call me. I'm not your doctor until I am. Yeah. So there was that sense of like homelessness of If I go into labor, no one can deliver it except him, which will mean I have an emergency C section, but if I'm not as patient yet, like so that there was that whole anxiety adding to the mix as well. so I had to go home, think about it. And then that's kind of where Rachel comes into the story, is you know, everybody was almost everybody was looking at me again with either pity or like what what's the big deal with all this. Rachel was one of the few people that didn't. And she also wasn't like not helpful either. Like then there was the people that were like tr like just not helpful. Like they're trying to be neutral, but in doing neutral, it's like, come on, give me something. So she was like, she just went above and beyond and like reached out to other moms on a social media group who had been his patient before. Like she did that on her own free time, which Text me at nighttime with it, which I just wasn't expecting. And it meant a lot to me. And I didn't realize it at the time when it was all happening, but at after the fact when I was kind of putting the pieces together of like, how'd I get here? You know? I think she was like that one person who believed in me because she gave me like not a pep talk, but like a a very authentic pep talk. Like I don't know how else to put it. Like just that like. you can totally do this type thing and and it wasn't like she wasn't blowing smoke. Right. You know, like so I felt like she was just the she was that person who I needed to believe in me. And so it's like, all right, I eventually I just made the decision to to transfer to him. And then I did. And then he also had a whole bunch of other requirements of like like it was a good thing I had gone to the MFM because he needed that type of Ultrasound? Yes. Okay. That was like exceptionally high detail that you can't just get at your regular OB's office. He needed that and then he wouldn't deliver footling breech and one other. My baby was Frank breech. So butt down. Mm-hmm. Yes. Butt down, legs up in the air. And he's like, That's actually the best type of breech to have. Did he tell you why? I think it's probably the safest to deliver or easiest, I I assume. I can't imagine it's the easiest 'cause I feel like you're that's the biggest square footage you could possibly push out. Yeah. Yes. I he didn't say much about I actually I didn't ask him why. Yeah. I I that's all he said. Yeah. So so I transferred to his office around thirty eight, thirty-nine weeks, something like that. Very, very close to the edge. Got in there. I had never been to a practice where he is the single and only doctor. okay. So like he's it. Right. He is the man who is going to deliver your baby. It's not like, my doctor didn't make it, so I have this on call doctor. You know, that was that was nice. So I went all the way to forty two weeks. can you be induced if you're planning for a vaginal delivery? I imagine you didn't want to be induced, just knowing your like kind of general preferences. But like I was just wondering like and I know a lot of doctors too don't want you to go past forty one weeks even and you know, kind of traditional practices. So I guess I was just wondering what his plan was for you going into labor. Yeah, so he did let me go to forty-two weeks. And I did have to be induced because I I it was the standard care doing the non stress test, things like that, which again he showed me his sense of humor with the non stress test. We couldn't like my baby seemed to be like so, so, so relaxed that it was hard to rile her. I I think what they do is like they hook you up and they're like they try to look for the baby's heartbeat to increase and then come down and hers, she just Like she didn't do it. She was so chill. And so I think he like he buzzed her. He took like a little buzzard thing and buzzed her head to make to startle her. And so it worked. And he laughed. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, this is this is my guy. So I I thought it was funny. I appreciated that. I don't know, seeing doctors laugh and have a good time makes me feel more relaxed. Yeah. So we went to forty-two weeks. that was the other thing. I got three membrane sweeps. wow. Yes. They didn't work at all. so at forty-two weeks I got induced. It was a scheduled induction. They call they s I the last time I saw him, he's like, All right, you are scheduled for Saturday at seven PM. You won't go in at that time. You're gonna call them or they're gonna call you. I think they're gonna call you at seven and give you like an an updated time. So I got a call around seven o'clock, just like you said. No beds, you can't come in yet, we'll call you when something comes available. So he said it's likely gonna be Sunday morning. Okay, cool. I'm thinking like Sunday, 9 a.m., 10 a.m. Like that's morning to me. Right. 8 a.m. No. They called me at 1 a.m. and they said you have two hours to get here. my gosh. So we we checked in, we started this whole process at three o'clock in the morning with no sleep. my gosh. I mean I slept like two hours before they called me. Right. I think I went to bed at eleven that night. And my husband went to bed like at twelve thirty or thing later. So, So you're sleep deprived going into this intense experience. Extremely sleep dep deprived going into an induction. This is like probably the part I remember the least because it was just not fun and so much happening at once and again sleep deprivation. You kinda remember all the stuff at the end when the baby's born. Yeah. Did they what was the induction plan? Was it cervodil? Like were you were you dilated or like ripe at all? Like a Not really. Okay. Like a centimeter. Okay. Or something like that. Like enough to do a membrane sweep. The first time he wanted to do one, he's like, I can't. It you're not dilated enough at all. And then I got thr I got a total of three. my gosh. I will not be doing that again. Like on my next baby. It was they didn't work for me personally. I know other neighbors in my neighborhood where it did work. It they got one It wasn't that bad and then they went into labor like the next day or like that afternoon. That's happened to me. That's how they've worked for me. Really? Yes. I'm sorry. That's great. No, if it works for you, that's a great way to avoid induction, but they were purely painful for me and completely unsuccessful. So yeah, they gave me the Cytotec Cytotec? I was Cytotec with a balloon catheter. Okay, like a cervical ripener. Mm-hmm. Yes. Both at the same time. Yeah. And She asked me if I wanted pain medication, because it wasn't Dr. Tate who put that on me, was somebody else at the hospital, like one of the resident doctors. And she's like, Do you want pain medication for this? I'm like, No. I'll I'll just we'll just try it. And you know, if it's too painful, I'll tell you to stop. And so she's at the end, she's like, Wow, you handled that really well. And I'm like, Have you ever had like a membrane sweep before? Because those are so much worse. That was nothing compared to that. and that reminds me. I forgot, like, what was the plan for an epidural or no epidural? So that was one thing Dr. Tate said. He's like, I he he didn't care which I did, but he's like, you just need to know what's gonna happen. the hospital I was delivering at had a requirement that for him to deliver any breech babies, it had to be in the OR. Right. In case there was an emergency. So that meant that if I did not have an epidural and we're delivering the OR and there is an emergency, my husband and doula get kicked out, I go under general anesthesia, and no one is there to meet the baby. Right. So to me, that was like a deal breaker. Yeah. I'm like, I can't deal with like the thought of being completely unconscious while this is happening and my husband's not there for like the baby. So That was just a deal breaker for me. So he's like, but if you have an epidural, then your husband can stay, the duel will have to leave. But your husband can stay and like you don't have to go under. Yeah. So, yeah, that that was the protocol for the epidural. So I walked in and they're like asking me what my birth plan is, if I want an epidural, and I was like, let's just see how it goes. Yeah. I'll I'll wait until the end for that, or I'll wait to see how far I can get until I would might need pain relief. It's good that he gave you that heads up though. That like this is like just so you could wrap your head around potentially getting an epidural since again that was not part of your birth plan. Yeah. I also appreciated too, on kind of a side note, and this is something I like kind of now know to look forward for future deliveries. He said like when I was talking to him, he's like I'm I will never give you an epesiotomy without your consent. So I was like, okay. Like There was that too. The other like fun fact I'll throw out there is like, you know, that consultation was so jarring and it was so like almost upsetting to me that and I didn't feel like how like I don't know, it just didn't make sense. Like the way he acted in the consultation, it was just hard for me to wrap my mind around that he's delivering all these babies and he's known as like the doctor midwife. Right. But I saw in his office he had a PBS documentary. It was like, watch Dr. Tate's PBS documentary. I'm like, okay. And that was watching that documentary is what made me go with him. Cause I felt like I was seeing the more authentic Dr. Tate on the documentary. Yeah. Cause it was like I think it was a religious documentary. It had something to do with like higher purpose and of like why why you want to deliver babies and everything like that. So That was why I decided to go with him. I remember you told me that when we first spoke and that he said it it he feels like it it's a calling for him, which is so beautiful. And I imagine that that would be very reassuring, especially given that his bedside demeanor is you know, is a little bit is a little different. Yeah, different, exactly. so yeah, so then so I'm at the hospital, I got the balloon catheter, got this cytotec it worked really fast, like too fast in my opinion. And again, it's you don't you don't know what you don't know. So I had always been told like work with your contractions, take your break in between. What I didn't know is that contractions, especially if they're like artificially induced, like how mine were being, can be erratic all over the place and not have a break. Yeah. Mm. That's how mine was. I mean, it was like there was no break in the very beginning and they went from zero to a hundred really fast. Maybe not a hundred. It wasn't like being eight centimeters dilated, but like just if going from nothing to a lot in very little time. So that I didn't have working against me. I did take it's like a I forget what the name of it was called. It's th they offered me one of two things. Like an oral painkiller. It was like, I believe it was fentanyl or it's cousin, and I can't remember the name of the cousin. The cousin, they said it it lasted longer. Okay. So it was like you'll get about three hours out of this as opposed to fentanyl. So I was like, at that point, I'm like, I'll take it. Steve. I know. I know. So Was your doula there at that point? No, she was not. Okay. We didn't call her in until the very end. And there's kind of a story behind that too. yeah. We didn't call her until the very end. Do you wish you'd called her in sooner or so I'll be honest. I did not need a doula. Okay. I found I I just do well with less, with less people, with less attention, with less distractions. The only person I needed in that room was my husband. Yeah. And he was amazing. He's the only one I wanted to be with. When he said he was gonna call a doula, I was like, Do you have to? Yeah. Like, but really the doula was for him. We didn't know that at the time. It was again hindsight putting it back like I was like, you know, I really could have done without her. He's like, I needed her. Yeah. That's amazing. So she still was helpful, it just in an unexpected way. In an unexpected way. Yeah. she was helpful to him. So no, the doula we didn't call in until the very last minute. she basically told us ahead of time that she had some back pain, back problems, and she wasn't gonna be able to be on her feet like the entire time. So she would have to have help. Yeah. And we didn't want to burn her out in the beginning. Like my husband and I really wanted her there for the OR. Right, right, right. That was the biggest thing. So we were kind of just waiting until the last minute to call her in. Yeah. That makes sense. Which was fine with me. so yeah, I got I took the pain medication, had some trippy dreams with that. Yeah. So you did get a little bit of sleep. Yeah. if you could call it that. Right. They were it was very vivid, intense dreams. And in those dreams, like I know it sounds really weird, but I tell my husband as a joke, I'm like, I met with the opioid angels and they were telling me that I ha they were trying to convince me I had to get an epidural. So I was undecided at that point. Yeah, that's right. Of like, I don't know, it's it sounds messed up, but I felt like I was cheating by getting an epidural. Now I realize in hindsight that's so not a thing. Yeah. It's so not a thing. But yeah, I never had a baby. I had this plan, now it's not going not going to plan. Yeah. So, and it's immaturity, truthfully. Yeah. It's complicated. I mean, it's a complicated thing that we go through. And you have to make so many choices as a birthing mom. And yeah, sometimes I get it. It's just, it's complicated. Yeah. So I think I've had a guilt associated with that, which I should not have had. No. And I don't advise anybody to have that. You should never have any guilt around getting a girl. Like on my next baby, I'm like I have no issue getting an epidural if I need one. Yeah. And I probably will. Yeah. So that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You can change your mind. It's your prerogative. Yeah. Exactly. so I was being convinced to get this epidural and I kept like agreeing to it. My head, I'm like, yes, yes, yes, I'll get the epidural, the epidural. It's so weird. So I woke up and I'm like, all right, hut I told my husband, I'm like, before I change my mind, before I talk myself out and have self-doubt, just filling the room. I have to get this epidural. Like I have to angels told me. Opioid angels told me and I agreed. So we're doing this. And he's like looking at me like okay, whatever you say, babe. So I waited. I did want to see what like natural contra like real contractions, what that labor process felt like. I did want that. Cause I'm like, you know, again, it's the unknown. So I wait, I don't know how far along I was, but I was in I was in legit labor. Yeah. And then I told my husband, I'm like, I I want the epidural. I'm ready for it now. Like this is pretty bad. And I think if I had been more rested, if I had gone into natural labor and got to labor at home a little bit, I think it would have been a lot better. But like just being in the hospital since 3 a.m., you know, that was hard. So he went and got the nurse and said, Hey, she would like an epidural now. And they're like, well. There's another woman who's in a lot more pain than she is, and we just sent the team in there, so it's gonna be while so he didn't tell me that. He came back and he's like, Honey, they're on their way. Wise man, wise man. And I'm like, Okay, okay. And you know, if you've been in labor before, you know time is not a thing. Yeah. So I had no concept of time. And I'm like, Are they on their way? He's like, They're on their way, they're coming in. It he I in my recollection Like when him and I were talking about the story, like later, I was like, What they took like what, twenty minutes? And he's like, And it was closer to two hours. my god. Yeah. So it was it was a long time, but I got to feel it. I got to feel what it was like. When that nurse said to my husband that the other woman was in more pain than I was, I feel like the it wasn't like pain is your per it's your perception and it's also your reaction, I kinda ha feel like. I don't know, I might not know what I'm talking about here, but like the whole time I had it in me like I wanted to scream. Like scream. And I didn't. I was just like, do not, do not scream, because the second you scream. Like it's over. It'll be you'll actually experience ten times more pain than what you might. So I just tried to not scream and that was my best coping mechanism. Well, I mean, when you first said that, I was thinking, how does she know that that other woman's in more pain? Like, how can she possibly know that? I assume the reaction because I was rocking back and forth, standing up with my husband, trying to do The coping techniques, like the breathing, the storytelling, none of that worked. It just made me want to vomit. But focusing on not screaming was like the one thing 'cause I wanted to. It's like that's the impulse. And I'm just like, just don't do it, because it will hurt more. So I assume I read that in Hypno Birthing. That Hypno Birthing book, it was saying something about like If you actually react to the pain, it's it's it real. Yeah, it makes it sometime it somehow does something in your brain to like switch on that alarm system. And I'm like, just don't let that alarm system like switch on. Yeah. That makes sense. So the team came in and when I say it looked like A clown show, I mean that they had some great camaraderie and humor to them. Not lacking in professionalism at all. Extremely professional, but just the room felt very sterile until they walked in. Yeah. And they're just all jokes, all playfulness. And the one lady one of the women there, I don't know what her job was specifically, but she walks in and she was like, wait, so I'm sorry. You're you're this is your first baby and you're delivering a breech? And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, why? And they all looked at me like I was nuts and she was like, What's your what's your sign? I'm a Capricorn. They're like, that explains it and they all like started joking about how only a Capricorn, I guess, would do that. I'm like what do they know that I don't? Someone glue me in here. Yeah, and my husband's the same. We're looking at each other like, Did Tate not tell us something? Like 'cause no one told me that this would be harder. In fact, I think I asked him if there's a difference in the delivery and he's like, nah, same. I mean, I'm pretty sure I asked him that. Yeah. So yeah. So anyways that the anesthesia team that came in kinda inside not not put doubt, but just in a humorous way, we were like, Did we get in over our heads here? Right. but no, it's fine. I got the epidural. They made my husband sit down because they're like a lot of dads pass out. So we just need you to take a seat. Yeah. He's like, all right. So I got the epidural. That was fine. yeah. I mean, I got tingle eaves my feet, and that was kind of weird. I'm like, are they still there? Yeah. Were you totally numb or could you did you have any kind of movement? I I have nothing to compare it to. I have heard women say, That they are that they felt nothing. Yeah. I mean, I could feel the pins and needles in my feet, in my legs. Could you feel the contractions of the waves at all? Or was it No Yeah, that was gone. Okay. But it but it's not that I I like I was fully able to push. Yeah. So like I've heard some women say they get so much epidural that they can't push or they can't feel the push. I didn't have that issue. Yeah. I could push no problem. Because I remember when we first spoke, I remember asking you, or I remember wondering out loud if it was recommended to not have an epidural with a breech baby so that you could connect better with your body because I had assumed it it's harder to push a be a breech baby out and they might need to like move you in different positions and like all this stuff. And so then I remember being surprised when you said like actually they he recommended I have a get an epidural or not recommended, but you know, he did say there were advantages to getting an epidural for this reason. So yeah, it's just interesting. Yeah. No, so I No, I was on one position the whole time on my back, unfortunately. Yeah. But I mean I shouldn't say unfortunately, because I honestly didn't know the difference. To me it was fine. I didn't feel the need to move. I didn't feel the need to get off. I assumed I would and I didn't. Yeah. So I was fine being on my back the whole time. yeah. And then I would say after the epidural came, I was really, really, really wiped out. we that's when the doula came shortly after then. That's when they started yeah. So I think they pushed or told me to push around that time. So what at what point did you go into the OR? When you got the epidural or after? N we didn't move to the OR until the very end. Okay. So, and that was another one of those interesting tape moments. I I just felt like so many things surrounding this doctor was just so much like humor. Yeah. But like in a weird, non-direct way. Yeah. I don't know how to describe it. Like so I'm I'm pushing and I'm pushing and I'm pushing and that's all in labor and delivery. And like the phone in the room starts ringing and he answers it. It's like apparently not my phone, it's his phone, I guess. I don't know. He answers it and he starts yelling at whoever he's talking to. No, no, no. This is how we've always done it. We always push in the labor and delivery room. We are not moving to the OR right now. It is too early. Hangs up on them. Gets several more phone calls. Yeah. Same thing. He's like getting more and more irritated with these people. Then a nurse comes in, shouts at them, they go away, then another nurse comes in. This guy's getting inundated with people trying to move him to the OR once they saw me start pushing. Yeah. And he's like, We don't go to the OR until the baby is being born. interesting. I assumed you'd be pushing in the OR. Okay. I didn't like my last three pushes. Yeah. There Wow. Okay. So But before that, so this is like another one of those interesting try to learn from moments is I'm pushing, pushing, pushing. And I pushed for about three hours total. at some point in that time, he came to me and he said, The baby's butt is inflamed. It's she's stuck around like your pel like a pelvic region, I don't remember where, like the curvature of your pelvis. It's stuck there. And then the nurse was like, and she has a fever. So it was like those three strikes all at one point. And he's like, Well, like we're probably gonna have to do a C section just so you know. And or he didn't say just so you know. He was like, It's looking like we're gonna have to move towards a C section because the baby's stuck. And he's like, Look, some doctors have cut off times or like progress times. He's like, I don't have that. As long as we make progress, I'm fine. So you you can keep laboring as long as you want, as long as we're making progress. Right. But right now you're not. So I'll give you some more time and we'll check back in. So he goes away and like I've had a hard time like describing even in my own head what this moment was for me. Cause at first cause I I automatically would say like I just completely resigned at this point. But it wasn't resignation. I think it was like true and total surrender. That I have no control over this. I didn't resign and like I kept trying. I kept pushing to the maximum ability. Like every single push. I pushed harder and harder and harder. And I kept talking to my baby. I'm like, look, if you if you just really want to be cut out of me, we'll do it. Yeah. I don't think it's the best way. I think the best way is for you to slide down the chute. Yeah. That's how God intended it. I just think that's the best way. But look if that's what you need. And so I'm like just talking to it and I'm I guess at that moment too, I say total surrender because like I did everything. Everything to get this baby to flip. I did the spinning babies, the moxabustion, chiropractic care. The only single thing I didn't do was acupuncture. Right. You did the ECV. I did the ECV, I pelvic floor physical therapy, I did the massages. Like it consumed my brain for the past several weeks of how do I get this baby to flip? And how do I maintain my birth plan to the best of my ability? And at that moment, after switching from my regular OB to the birth center, then to Dr. Tate, and then going to this MFM, and then now Dr. Tate is like, we're looking at a C section. I'm like, okay, it's done. Like I've literally done everything. Yeah. So it was like a sad moment for me, but not because shortly after she was born. Yeah. So like it's as if I needed that surrender to let go. Mm-hmm. Where like I just don't care about the outcome anymore as long as we're all healthy and safe and we're all here. Yeah. Cause I was so focused on having it my way, you know, and then once I let that go and I'm like, as long as we're all good, like that's it, right? Then she was born. So I don't know, that was pretty profound. It was a very profound, like defining moment for us. yeah, shortly after that he came back in. He never checked back in with me. Like the last thing he had said to both me and my husband was that we're looking towards C section. I'll give you a couple more minutes and then I'll be back. Yeah. And then when he came back, we just kept pushing, and then a bunch of scrubs got brought out, and they're all like scrub up to the doula and to my husband. And so then they started moving me to the OR. Mm-hmm. And both me and my husband are like, I guess we're getting a C section. Like, this is it. Like, okay. I I'm like preparing for like all of this. And then we get in and there's he makes a joke, of course. I forgot to mention that. I did need Pitocin. I did have to have not much. just a little push to knock me over. Yeah. Not like throw me over the edge. And that was fine. So, you know, When you're on the like crunchy spectrum of wanting this all natural birth, these things, Pitocin induction, balloon catheter, epidural they all sound like so scary. Yeah. And you do it and it's fine. Yeah. It's completely fine. Yep. So anyways, I did yeah. So we go in and another funny Tate moment. We're in the OR and he's like, what the heck? She was sh I s she was Totally in late or having contractions and her she just completely shut down. He's like, we need more Pitocin here. And so just the way he said it of like, I don't know what possibly happened. I don't know. Maybe that we just moved into this bright, like glaringly bright room with 20 people all staring at my vagina. Maybe that has something to do with why I shut down. Definitely not. I'm sure that has nothing to do with it. That's what I but that yes, in all seriousness, that's what I was gonna say. Like, how can you? Like how can your body not shut down? Yeah, it shut down a little. There was a whole bunch of people and they're all excited and it it's the teaching hospital where I was delivering. So was it Emory? Yeah. Yeah. And I had a great experience. Yeah. Nurses were lovely. Everybody was great. There was I I don't know, I feel like when the staff has a lot of camaraderie and humor amongst themselves, it kind of trickles downstream to you versus if everybody hates each other, you know. For sure. Yeah, it's the energy. So it was great energy there. And yeah, so we were in the OR Like I said, I think you only did like three pushes there, though it seemed much more dragged out and it was they were teaching, so he had a bunch of other physicians in there of like this is how you do do it. And I know there is like different maneuvers because at one point, you know, we were all my husband and I, we were truly exhausted at this point. And he it's we've been in this rhythmic Countdown and then push. Or I think it was a push and then a countdown for like 10 seconds or something. I don't remember. but it was just we kept doing this over and over and over again. So then Dr. Tate was like, okay, on your next contraction, do not push. Okay? But I didn't really hear that. Neither did my husband, because we're both in a daze. So my husband is yelling, push, push, push. Being a cheerleader. Yes. And the there's a doctor in my ear, and he's whisper like in my ear, and he's like, Do not push. Do not push. So finally I sit up and I shout at everybody, like a pregnant lady, like, what am I doing? Am I pushing or am I not? Because I'm hearing mixed messages here. Dr. Tate smacks my husband. He like stands up, reaches over the table, and smacks my husband on the shoulder. He and I think he told him to shut up or be quiet or sit down. I don't know. in anyways, he was really my husband was really embarrassed, but yeah, because he was telling me the wrong thing and I think at that point, like when the baby's coming down, he ha Dr. Tate has to like reach up in the birth canal and like tuck the baby's like put his fingers inside the baby's mouth and tuck her chin down as she comes out. So fortunately, not that I suspected this, but no force needed, which is great. that was one of his other requirements for the birth. Was he had like three parameters. One was like two the only two types of breech, Frank and some other else, not a footling. Mm-hmm. and then I forget what the second one was, but the third one was that I had to be able to push the body out completely unassisted. So no forceps, no help whatsoever, because I guess if you do need help getting like the butt out, then that could be much more problematic for getting the head out later. Okay. He's like, if you can get the whole body out Then like and if we just get stuck at the head, it's not that hard to get it out. We have our ways to do it. We use the forceps, blah blah blah. So I didn't need any of that. I got her out all my own. my gosh. So So the bottom comes out and then the feet kinda like slide out? Yes. Okay. That's my understanding. I didn't see. Yeah. I wish they gave me a mirror. I didn't ask, I didn't think of it. Did you have any pictures or anything? Not of that, no. I think we have a picture of her like on the table when they're Sucking the fluid out 'cause she didn't cry when she came out. And I of course freak out, why is my baby not crying? And they're like, they're just sucking the fluid out. So but yeah. Dad got to cut the cord. And so she was there. You did it. Were you like, I yeah. I can't believe I did it. So that's I mean, I no, I didn't think, I can't believe I did it. I think it was more just like shock of she's f finally here. This feels like the longest journey and we are finally here. But and this was again something I wasn't able to talk about or even think about or admit to myself during the time, it's again on reflecting, so much so much becomes clearer when you reflect on back on it. Of course. That like I was so so so tired after all that. Like, I in my mind I envisioned like the golden hour. I'm so excited for this golden hour. I'm gonna hold her in my arms. We're just gonna bunt. We're gonna fall in love with each other immediately. No, none of that happened. they handed her to me, and I was like, Whoa, whoa, what is this? And I'm like, they're so like slippery and like like gumby, you know, they're like yeah, they're like little aliens. And I was like, okay, this is cool, I guess. And they roll me back and Dr. Tate's like, all right, I'm going home. Bye. Nice doing business with the have a good night, sir. So they wheel me back to the labor and delivery room and I just in truth again it's like hard to talk about, but I do feel like it's important for other moms to hear. Mm-hmm. I I didn't want to hold her actually. Yeah. I wanted to just I was like ta to my husband, I'm like, Can you take her? Like I I don't I didn't say that out loud, but I was just like, All right, it's your turn, meet her. And then he's like, Do you want her back? I'm like, nah, not right now. No. So the other thing that w part of this equation too that I didn't know about, it was that I and I told you this already, that I I didn't I had a I had a thyroid problem and an autoimmune problem that I didn't know about. Like deep down I knew something was definitely wrong, but I was so afraid of having an overly medicalized or high-risk birth or like 4C section. So I just kept my mouth shut, didn't say anything, which I shouldn't have done. but I did. And so I suffered needlessly with the thyroid. And I think that's why my postpartum was so difficult. especially at the hospital, but even when we got home, it was so hard for me. Yeah. Was because of that. Because my my thyroid labs my thyro thyroid hormones were atrocious. Yeah. So if I'd been on medication, if I'd known about this, then I it could have been mitigated, but I didn't. So I would say I didn't even bond with my baby for a little while. Yeah. I was definitely committed to breastfeeding her. Even though her latch was like a piranha on my boob, it was so painful, which was its whole own story in and of itself. But I needed a lot of help. But I I think like that commitment to breastfeeding her at any and all costs, no matter how painful, no matter this, no matter how tired I was, no matter how much I didn't to do it, actually is what helped me in the long run. Yeah. Because because I wasn't able to quite bond with her in the beginning, I was able to later. Yeah. And like I don't feel like I missed anything. Right. You know, like I knew of some other moms that didn't bond either for their own medical reasons. And they did not they chose not to breastfeed and I think it's because they just didn't want to, they weren't feeling up for it. Yeah. And I I don't know that that helped them. Yeah. Not judging. Just saying. You know, for me hanging through it is it paid off big time. Yeah. So I know I didn't bond as much with my first son either when he was born. And I think part of it was because we were separated after he was born. And I think that definitely had an impact on me. And I think regardless of the reason why, it's shocking when you don't especially if you're like me, and I I assume you were this way too, but correct me if I'm wrong. I'd wanted to be a mom so badly and w wanted this baby and was Just expecting this immediate obsession. Yes. And I was so confused and felt shameful that I didn't feel the way that I expected to feel. Yes. One hundred percent. And it was kinda heartbreaking. I remember just being sad about it and being like, This is disappointing, you know? Yeah. And for me the obsession came later. Like I'm full blown, obsessed, like it would eat him, you know. Yeah. For breakfast, lunch and dinner if I said. But yeah, it's it's difficult when you don't have that immediate feeling that you think you're supposed to have. Yes. Yeah. Like I thought you were you said it perfectly, obsession. Yeah. Like I thought we were supposed to be obsessed with each other and like right away. And I'm like, No, not feeling it. You know, it is hard. But it came and that's all that matters. Yes. So yeah. Just know if anyone out there, if you don't have that feeling today, it could be tomorrow that it kicks in. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So yeah. Wow. That was it. Quite the journey. It is. And now that I'm expecting my second one, I have like it's all like a learning process. Like my whole thought process has changed. Yeah. Like before with heart with my first with my daughter, like the having the unmedicated birth was like the most important to me. Or I should say natural. Like Low intervention. Yes, low interventions, best way to put it. That was the single most important thing to me, and now it's not. Now I kind of don't care as much. I still want low intervention, but like it's not the hill I'm gonna die on now. I'm more like speaking to the birth after birth, like I just want to be pre more present. Yeah. So like if there are aids that can help keep my energy higher. If that means getting in that bedural sooner, like so be it. I don't care. Yeah. You know? Do you if this baby I mean, I almost don't even wanna say. But like So I don't think it's gonna be breech. Okay. I really don't. I actually I maybe I'm just trying to manifest it, but I feel like this is gonna be a normal birth. Like hopefully no induction. I like and that's even why with the slip up I had earlier with like the head up, I'm like, I feel like I am head down all this time. Yeah. Like I think I will be. I think you are too. How many weeks are you now? Fifteen. my gosh. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. If you if if for some crazy reason this baby was breech, would you do you think you would do the same thing? I would. Yeah. I would because you know, if the people who I've talked to have had C sections, they're they're fine with it, and most of them it's all they know. Yeah. They had a second C section after their first two. And they say so that was the other thing. I had a friend who had a breech baby at the same time as me and which is weird. Yeah. She went through with a C-section and it was not even a option to her to do anything different. And I remember when I asked her, because she was ahead of me, and I was like, So how'd it go? How was it? And she was like, honestly, the C-section, it's not that bad. Okay. And when I remember she asked me after I had my birth, she said, How'd it go? My instinctive, impulsive response. reflexive is what I meant to say, was it was amazing. Yeah. It was the greatest thing ever. Yeah. And I'm like, that's the difference. Yes. Right there. Yeah. It's not it wasn't that bad versus it was amazing. Incredible. Yeah. What was your recovery like? Did you have any tears? I did. I had a second degree tear. Which Tate D Dr. Tate was making fun of again and I am constantly re like just references jokes because he's like, you know, I thought I was gonna have to cut you, but then you just teared right at the last minute was great. You were like awesome. Thanks. I feel like second degree tear, not to minimize it, because that is you're still a tear, but I feel like a second degree tear for a breech baby, like I don't know, I just keep picturing like the amount. of body like that you had to push out with pushing out butt and thighs, like wraps up like, you know, a little Yeah, that's that's a lot. So I feel like that's pretty successful to only have a second degree tear. Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, if you wanna like romanticize the whole natural birth thing, I'm like, well if I had just been like in a pool or in my own like doing it on my own, like I probably wouldn't have torn. But whatever. Who knows exactly? Yeah. You had to push so hard to get, I feel like a breech baby out that I don't know. It's It was the hardest pushing ever. Like I like you look at women who are pushing hard and pushing hard and it was like I every time I'm like I can't p possibly push harder and then but the next time you had to try and push harder. Dig down. Yes. Yeah. For about three hours. But then yeah, she got out. And yeah, I didn't e honestly, I didn't even notice that I had like for the postpartum recovery, I didn't even notice I had a tear unless I forgot to take that third dose of the medicate it's like a Tylenol ibuprofen combo, they tell you. And I like my third dose is like in the middle of the night and that's the one I got lazy about. And then I started to feel it. I'm like, okay. That hurts. Yeah. But yeah. well you are Such a badass. I mean, it's amazing. I just I think it's amazing that you advocated for yourself, knew what you wanted, and then did it. Yeah. Like you did it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't have to worry about V backs or anything like that. You know, like the OB practice that I'm at right now that I love, they even said they're like, We don't do V BACs. Yeah. So I'm like, Well, don't worry about that. Don't worry about it. Are you going to is the plan right now to give birth in a hospital or do the birth center if everything looks good? I I think my confidence is a little hit right now to be honest with the whole natural birth thing. I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean just like I I think I I wanna I think I wanna deliver in a hospital. I think it takes the pressure off. Yeah. You know, like there's something to me about being at a birth center and then like if something goes wrong or if I have to be induced again or if like whatever comes up, they're gonna transfer me to a hospital I don't wanna go to. Mm-hmm. It's great. So I just I don't wanna go there. I've been there once. I didn't like it. No, it's not a place you you want to avoid it if you can. Yeah. Yeah. So I I just I don't wanna wind up there for any reason. So I think I just feel safer going in the hospital and I might attempt to wait on the epidural again and just see how you're feeling. Yeah. But I I'm not gonna compromise my energy for it. Like if I'm exhausted, just we're going there straight out the gate. I think that's a good way to put it. You're not gonna compromise your energy. Right. Yeah. And I think that's like the the beautiful thing is that you can change your mind, you can change your priorities. And it's okay to like learn and evolve from different from different experiences. I think a lot of people, you know, think like, I'd have to do it this way 'cause that was my plan, you know, or like yeah, I I I really admire your ability to just be like, you know what? I feel differently now. Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah. I especially now that 'cause I already have a daughter, I'm like, I'm my you know, before I'm looking forward to the golden hour that never came. Yeah. But now I'm looking forward to like the moment when my daughter meets my new baby. And you don't know what you're having? Not yet. I'm gonna wait. I'm waiting till the anatomy scan, I'm gonna do a gender reveal, have all that surprise. But yeah. I keep calling it a her. Yeah. But because I want a girl, now I'm like maybe I'll have a boy because I want a girl. Yeah. but yeah. I can't wait to hear what it is. Exciting too. I know. Well, thank you so much for doing this. Before you go, I always ask my guests to describe birth in three words. That's tough. It was, I would say sacred is one word. These are in no particular order. Sacred. It is beautiful slash life-changing. Yeah. Not one word. And I'm not gonna lie, for me, it was hard. Yeah. I would say hard, yeah. Yeah. But not in a bad way. No. Yeah, hard isn't bad. No, hard's not bad. Yeah. I've said before, I don't think there's anything wrong with birth being hard. If it's easy for you, amazing. Yeah. That's incredible. But We're bringing a life into this world. Like maybe it it's okay that it's hard. It's okay that it's hard. In fact, like I there's all these jokes about like if men could be the ones to have babies too, like if we could both have babies, like the man would never do it. Right. Like even like when the doctor asked my husband, he's like, Would you go through that? He's like, Never, never. I would never do that. And I'm like, so it's it's okay that it's hard. Yeah. You're doing something huge and incredible. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't I don't see that as a I agree. Yeah. Well, Ellie, thank you so much. Thank you. You've been listening to the Arrivals podcast. Until next time.