Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / REMIX: Album 7 Track 7 - Seizing Opportunities & Elevating Others w/Mike Maynard

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REMIX: Album 7 Track 7 - Seizing Opportunities & Elevating Others w/Mike Maynard · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. You already know what it is. If you hear my voice and you hear Larry's voice, it must be time for Brands, Beats and Bytes, and Larry, we have an interesting guest today. Very interesting guest. Let, let me give a little set up here before Larry does his wonderful, phenomenal job of a formal introduction. Brand Nerds, you hear us often talk about in the field of marketing, it requires a balance of art and science. The same is true in entrepreneurship. We believe you gotta have this balance of art and science. And in this case, uh, Brand Nerds, we have a guest that has an engineering background. So this is, this is the very sort of, uh, analytical side of his brain. And then he is, he's also on like the PR/Comms side. So, uh, Larry, you're gonna have to explain to me at some point how these two go together, but that wonderful balance of art and science, that's number one. Number two is that, uh, somehow Brand Nerds, we have convinced ourselves that there's this. Vastly different world of B2B and B2C marketing like they are, they are diametrically opposed. Yes, there are some differences, but there are also some commonalities and we love it when we get someone who is a B2B expert in marketing and comms to walk us through: here is where they're similar and here's where they're different. We have a guest that can do that for us today. And third and final, you guys know I like things in threes and I bet you Larry did not see this coming. And then our, our guest did not see this coming either. But when I was a young lad, when I was a young lad, one of my favorite Olympic events was speed skating, one of my favorite Olympic events. And yesterday, uh, Brand Nerds. I know Larry and Jade and. Jeff and, uh, Hailey. They don't like me to date our podcast, but I have to date this one, uh, yesterday, which was March 18th. So this, you, you're hearing this a little later, but was the 61st birthday of one of my favorite Olympic athletes of all time speed skater Bonnie Blair. LT: I saw that. DC: Yes. Speed skater. Oh, I, oh, Bonnie Blair. Oh, I used to just wa love watching her come, come across. I'm like you. She's touching the ice with her left hand. And so, uh, Brand Nerds, she may be wondering, okay, why the hell are you talking about speed skating? Just stay tuned, Brand Nerds. There might be a connection. Larry, who do we have in a virtual building today? LT: We have Mike Maynard in the house today. Welcome, Mike. Mike Maynard: Hi Larry. Thanks very much for having me on. I really appreciate it and thanks for hyping me up, DC. DC: Oh, we ain't done yet. We're just beginning. LT: No, we're just starting Mike. We're just starting DC just gives like the preface, so now we're gonna get into the full content. So okay. Brand Nerds, Mike is someone as DC alluded to, who is a super successful marketer specializing in the B2B space. DC and I firmly believe great marketers are are of many different stripes, whether B2C or B2B. That said, while there are similarities be between the two, there are differences to and in our quest to provide you Brand Nerds a wide range of people. We are very excited about having Mike in the building today. As you may detect from Mike's voice, Mike is British and he earns a master's of engineering degree from the University of Sussex. That's where he got start. Mike began his career as an electronics design engineer for company ZED Instruments and Hawk Components, developing products from complex radar systems to recording studio mixing desks for pop stars. Okay, so this is where, what DC was alluding to, that left brain where Mike has that engineering start. He then joins semiconductor company IDT Corporation first as a field applications engineer, and he is soon promoted to European Applications Manager. While this is taking place, Mike is also going to, uh, the Kingston University where he earns his MBA and this is where the marketing starts. Mike, this is the segue, right? He soon transitions to European Marketing Manager at IDT. Okay D. So now it is 2001, and this is the big pivot from Mike along with a business partner. He purchases B2B marketer, PR agency, Napier. Mike currently serves as the owner and managing partner for the agency. Napier's unique four step approach is, is is designed to solve marketing challenges and most importantly, increase the speed prospects travel through the marketing funnel, generating opportunities more quickly. Brand Nerds, Mike and his team have directed major PR and marketing programs for a wide range of global technology clients reaching over 30 European countries, North America and beyond. Their client list is very lengthy and includes ABD, Microchip Technology, Nordic Semiconductor, just to name a few. Additionally, since Mike is very prominent in the B2B marketing circles, he serves as a B2B group leader for the Forbes Agency Council. He is co-host of a marketing B2B technology podcast, which is awesome and he is the Deputy Chairman of Eurocom Worldwide, which is one of the largest global networks of independent, privately owned PR and marketing communications agencies, helping foster international co collaboration between member agencies to deliver international campaigns for the world's leading B2B brands. Before we get to the end here, this is what DC was alluding to. Mike also serves as a treasurer for the all witch Speed Skating Club. Looking forward to this one Brand Nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Mike Maynard. Mike Maynard: Thanks, lt. That's a great introduction. LT: It's all you, Mike. DC: That is, that is, that is you brother. That's where it comes from. Uh, just 1, 1, 1 point of clarification. So, uh, when you pronounced his company name, lt, I heard Napier and I wanna make sure, is it Napier or Napier? Mike Maynard: It's Napier, certainly in the uk. DC: Napier. Okay, got it. Okay. LT: Yeah. Nap. I messed it up and I asked Mike to gimme a hit and I screwed it up. DC: Sorry, Mike. That's all. That's all right. That's all right. I wanna make sure we got the, uh, the name right. Okay. Uh, Mike, most folks who find themselves in the marketing and agency world, if you go back to university and you ask, what did you study? They will say, philosophy. They may say history, they may say some other form of liberal arts. Very few people that I know of that go into the field of marketing, especially pr, will, will, will they say, yeah, I got an engineering degree. Whether, whether it be, uh, advanced or, or not. So, uh, in this get comfy section, my question to you, Mike, is how did you go from doing, uh, boards with, uh, with, for, for artists and radar stuff in engineering? How did you then find your way into the marketing, uh, discipline and what have you found useful about your left brain training in what you're doing now? Mike Maynard: Well, that's a, a very big intro question, DC so, um, I think the first thing I'd say is that engineers actually are surprisingly creative. They're not necessarily very social, but they're surprisingly creative. Um, and so what engineers are trying to do is they're trying to produce solutions to problems. DC: Got it. Mike Maynard: Okay. Um, it gives me an issue when I try and do PR because for me as an engineer, if there weren't problems, there wouldn't be engineers. So problems are great, but of course, you know, in PR we want challenges and not problems. So, you know, there, there's always an issue about. DC: Got it, got it. Mike Maynard: Like moving from one sort of area to another. But I would say, you know, firstly, absolutely engineers are much more creative than you imagine, and that there's a much closer overlap between, you know, some of those liberal arts skills and engineering skills than you might imagine. Um, how I got here, um, it was kind of an accident. I mean, so. I started off as a, an engineer designing systems. I then moved into what's called a field application technical sales. Um, and the reason was they gave me a car. I mean, it, it was that simple. I was young, I got given a car. Fantastic. LT: So, um, Mike, I have to, I have to interrupt you for a second. Brand Nerds, I, I, I'm, I really want to hear Mike talk more about this, but many times we sort of take decisions like this because of a reasonable like that and it gives you a path that's really special. So, go ahead Mike. Yeah. Mike Maynard: So, so yeah. So totally unplanned. I mean, no career plan at all. It's just I get a car if I do this job, let's move into this job. And I found that I actually. Frankly was better at talking about technology than I was about actually designing technology. LT: Wow. Mike Maynard: So that sort of drove my career. You do a lot of talking about it, you know, coming up with a lot of ideas, a lot of solutions. It was quite creative. And you also start getting involved in the PR side. Um, and then I moved into marketing mainly because that was really the only route I had staying in the uk. I had young children at the time. I decided I didn't wanna move to the states working with an American company. The European marketing role was, you know, sort of my next logical step up. So I took that. So again, not really thought through, but uh, you know, a logical move forward. And then I went on a course, and on the last night we went out and we all drank lots of wine. And maybe it was a wine, I don't know. But, but somebody there, and I remember it very, very vividly. They said to me, they said, you know, "Mike, you really should start your own company." Um, and they were very lovely people. And I think what they were saying was, Mike, I never ever want to be your boss. Don't apply for any company I work in. Um, but, but I believed them and I, I, I took them at face value. And so I said, stop my own company. That'd be fantastic. Came back, thought, how am I gonna start my own company? I don't really know, you know, working marketing at the time. And then, um, literally about, uh, a month and a half later, um, my main contact at the agency I was using approached me and said, look, the founders want to retire. They're looking to sell the business. Um, I think you should buy it. Wow. And I was like, how, how can it be? You know? 'cause clearly I've not thought about buying an agency ever in my life, but now suddenly this is gonna be my new career. Um, so I did it and I managed to buy a technology agency about three weeks before the.com crash, which was not the best timing in the world. But yeah, that, that's kind of how I got there. Um, and I think, you know, you, you asked me DC. How do I use engineering, my engineering background in, in, in PR? That's, that's a great question. Um, I think, you know, the challenge is, is that actually balance is always good. You know, being creative, being free, I mean that, that's really important. But also having systems and processes helps as well. And actually sometimes it helps the creative process. So, um, LT mentioned that, you know, we have a four step process that's very me, that's like, we need a process, we need steps, we need, um mm-hmm. But it works really well. And actually our creative team work really well within it. Um, and they come up with great ideas. So I think I can bring that, uh, you know, that kind of a bit more systematic process driven approach. Um, but bring it to a, um, you know, a company that's got a lot of creatives in and between us, you know, and, and I wouldn't say we are always loving each other. We sometimes disagree. We definitely come from different backgrounds, but between us, you know, we get on and we, we have a great time and hopefully generate some great work. DC: Wow. LT: That's cool. Um, hey, D, Mike said something really interesting that I think I know we, you and I talk about a lot, uh, in our business and privately. Mm-hmm. We've mentioned it a few times, uh, during the podcast, but I don't think we can talk about it enough. And that's where many folks feel that creative people want to just have the, the opportunity to go just do what they want. The reality is when given appropriate direction, that's where creative p people really thrive. And Mike alluded to having their four step process and that the, he said they work really well within that. Mm-hmm. And I think that's what we've found, Mike, is that, um, when provided some borders right, and some good direction, that's where you get the most out of people in, in terms of creativity. Would, would you agree with that? I, Mike Maynard: I think you're so right Lt and I think basically the problem with creative people is they have so many good ideas, right? That if they're left to go wherever they want, I mean, they dunno where to go. They've got too many good ideas. If you can focus them down and focus their ideas on, you know, in our case, what the client needs, they actually produce really great work. When you ask 'em to just go do what you think, it's so broad that they're kind of drowning in ideas and they don't necessarily produce great work. DC: Yeah. There's a, uh, a new golf league that started here in the us. They play this league at SoFi Arena in California. I think it's in, uh, LT: The indoor golf league you're talking about. DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called TGL, tomorrow's Golf League, TGL, and the founders are Rory McElroy, Tiger Woods, and then there's a third chap. Whose name I cannot recall. The reason why I'm mentioning golf is because there is a very smart guy, Mike, at an agency out of, uh, I think Seattle, what's called Wong Doody W-O-N-G-D-O-O-D-Y, and the chairman is Tracy Wong, who grew up as a creative. He talks about the value of a brief, let's call brief now a process, a brief, and he says that the, uh, the role of the brief is if you have a pen in a golf hole. What, what a process will allow one to do from a strategy perspective is get the ball really close to the pen, then a creative as, as like brilliant as they are. They can then use that creativity to tap it in. If you do not give them that process or direction, then the. They are never gonna find that pick. Well, I wouldn't say never, that ball will be all over SoFi Arena. It'll be in seats, it'll be in beer cans, it'll be in popcorn. And so, uh, uh, Brand Nerds, I, I think something important to take away from Mike's piece is that don't bristle when processes added. Do not bristle, because actually a good process is creatively liberating. LT: Well said D. DC: Yeah. Alright, uh, Mike, if you don't have anything more to add, we are going to go to the next section. Mike Maynard: Let's go. Let's, let's try it. DC: Let's do it. All right. It is called Five Questions. Larry and I go back and forth until we have asked a total of five questions. So, Mike, um, there are a lot of things that I enjoyed about living in the, uh, in the UK and there were some things that I was surprised by. But there, there were also some things that I just kinda experienced a love for. So I grew up in Detroit, and so we don't have a proper public transportation system. And I have also been in New York many times and I've done their, um, I've done their public transit system with the subway. Okay. That does not compare to the tube or the, like, the, the, the, the, the way the tubes work in, uh, in UK, it's just fantastic. I just loved it. Now let me bring this question home and put it in the context of branding for you, Mike, when is the first branding experience that you can recall that really lit your soul? A fire made you smile, warmed your heart, almost like a first love? What was that for you? Mike Maynard: Well, I, I, I love you talking about the tube. I think it, it's amazing. Um, but I'm gonna do something very British. I'm gonna talk about cricket. DC: Oh, sorry. Oh, we, we, we must talk about Lords, but please. LT: Love it. Mike Maynard: So the first brand I really love was a brand called Gray Nichols. And Gray Nichols, uh, made cricket equipment, but particularly bats, you know, and, um, oh, okay. Unlike, um, as I understand it, baseball, where there's much less excitement over the different bat manufacturers. There's a huge competition amongst different man bat manufacturers in cricket. Um, and Gray Nichols was used by the most stylish, the most beautiful, you know, great players. Um. My dad, which also matters a lot as well. DC: Ah, okay. Mike Maynard: And so I always wanted Gray Nichols bats, that that was what I wanted as a kid. And, um, in fact, you know, I've still got a bat that I got probably when I was about 12, 13 years old. Um, and my son loved it because, um, he started playing cricket. I showed him a bat. I was telling him all about, you know, how amazing it was and, uh, you know, the history of the design and why it looked like it. And, and, you know, just loved this bat and, and bored my poor onto tears. Um, but he got his revenge because we went to watch a cricket match and Gray Nichols were there and they had a, um, a stand selling bats and they had a bat museum. And my son found it hilarious that my bat was in the Museum of Old historic bats. DC: Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mike Maynard: It's, uh, it's something that's fun. But, but I think, you know. In terms of the, the Gray Nichols brand, it was the people that they were associated with, including my dad. Um, that really made me love it. And I think that's, that's a super important bit of branding. Um, and obviously in consumer, people focus on that a lot, particularly around influencers. I think that's one of the things us, you know, marketers in B2B could do better job of is actually, you know, building brands for association. DC: Mm. LT: That's interesting. What I take from that too, D, is to think about the, the emotional connection Mike has, but it's also multi-generational Right. Handed down from your dad, right? Like that's where you? Yes. Right. And then, uh, then forward to your son. Um, and, and I think when brands can embed themselves in that way, ooh, that becomes really special. DC: Yeah. Uh, when Mike said that. He bought the bat for his son. He, he could have merely just passed the bat and said, here you are, son. He said he told his son the stories LT: Yeah. DC: Of it, the history of it, and it brought his son to tears. And this is when a bat becomes more than a bat becomes, it becomes far more than a bat. 'cause also what, what implicit of what, what you were saying, Mike, is that the story of this gray, is it, is it Gray Nichols? Is that the pronunciation? Mike Maynard: Yeah. Yeah. That's the brand in, in, in, in, in a, in addition to this Gray Nichols bat uh, having the history that it had, it was not just, what's your son's name by the way? Mike? Uh, Jonathan. DC: Jonathan. It wasn't just Jonathan looking at his dad, Mike, it was his son Jonathan, looking at his dad, Mike. And what's your father's name? Is he still with us by the way? Mike Maynard: Uh, unfortunately he's not, but he was John. DC: So he was John. Okay. So real. He's not looking at John, his namesake. I say it's like, so, so Brand Nerds, here's the deal. I know you, you, you couch this, um, Mike, and we and B2B need to be better. I would just say we in marketing. LT: Yes. DC: It doesn't matter. B2B, B2C, we need to be better at that because we're more attached to the stories and the memories than we are the actual product. The product becomes a vessel through which to tell these stories of history. Great example, man. LT: It's a great example. And before I'm gonna go to the next question, but just one other quick point. Is that DC said it perfectly, Mike. We deal with a bunch of B2C companies that wanna stay in there, in, in, down, in the product features and functional areas and, and we're always talking about laddering up. That's one of the things that we talk about. So I wouldn't just say B2B. It's, it's, uh, marketers as DC puts so perfectly overall. Okay, Mike, so next question. Who has had or is having the most influence on your career? Mike Maynard: So this is a really hard question for me 'cause there's been so many people. Um, you know, fairly early on in my career, um, I worked with this amazing boss, um, and the, the, the guy, Terry Hodgkinson was his name. I mean, basically his goal was to make our life easier as a design team, as an engineering team. Ah, and he basically saw his, his role and I guess I can say this now 'cause I'm never gonna work in engineering again. Um, but his role was to buffer us from the technical director who was also co-founder of the company. And he just did an incredible job at it. And it makes you realize that, you know, a lot of what managers have to do is really about supporting people. Mm-hmm. Um, rather than telling them what to do. And I think that was the first time I really like, understood it. That, that it's about supporting people. Um, I. You know, that was hugely influential. Um, then when I was working for the American Semiconductor Company, I mean, I had another great boss. Um, you know, it's interesting, this guy called Bill Cowing. Um, generally, you know, people looked at him and said, he's got one superpower. He hires great people. And then they look at me and go, maybe not you, Mike, but everybody else was great. No, but, but seriously, I mean, he had a great ability to hire really good people and to make people successful. Um, and, and he was really good at helping people become successful and encouraging people to really, you know, be ambitious, go for things that perhaps they, they felt was a bit bit of a stretch. Um, and, and his ambition sort of rubbed off really well on others. So, you know, working. And, and sometimes not even directly forum. So, you know, a lot of my career at a level below was, was really interesting and really fascinating. So, you know, I, I've really enjoyed that. And then I think now, and it's hard to say, you know, who's influencing today. Um, but now, now I'm the CEO of the company. It's kind of the people who are working for me that are influencing me and, and driving me forward and making me wanna be successful. Um, although, I mean, one of the interesting things is actually I've sold a majority of the shares now to the employees. So employees... DC: Oh wow. Mike Maynard: ...majority shareholders. So in many ways they're now back being my boss again. But, uh, that, that's a different issue to deal with. But I think it's all about having seen how people in the past have helped me build a career. It, it's much more about learning about how I can help others build a career and, and seeing what they do and, and learning from 'em. And, and you can always learn from everybody. I think LT: this is so good. D, you have any thoughts? DC: I do, Larry. Um, this notion of, um, the discovery that a manager's job is about making life easier for the team and supporting people rather than telling them what to do. I don't remember at what point, Larry, in my career that I began to say this to my bosses, but it was pretty early. And Mike, the conversation I would have with a new boss, I said, what I want our relationship to be about is you helping me understand the what, uh, what's of, what needs to be done for our, our organization to be successful. And then I'm really looking to you as my boss to tell me why, why is that? What or the series of what's, why is that important? I want spend my time on that with you. I do not want to spend my time with you on the how to do it right. I want to figure out, uh, what the, how is with with my team. And I will come back to you and say, these are the hows that we have. Now, if you have a how, send, send it to me, tell me about it. But if you, hows become mandates, then you don't need me. You, you don't need me. Now I, I didn't have an elegant way to say it the way Mike has just said it, but it's the same. It's the same thing. And by the way, when you don't do this Brand Nerds, this is for you Brand Nerds who are managing people you may own a firm, is that once you go into telling your people what to do, whatever level of creative brilliance they have starts to shrink. Yep. And then they will wait for you to tell them the next thing to do. Fantastic answer, Mike. Fantastic. Mike Maynard: I think one thing I, I've gotta say though, DC is, I know if people at Naper are listening to this, they're all screaming now going, but you're such a control freak, Mike. DC: You know? Mike Maynard: So I would say I kind of have learned what to do and I'm learning from people. I'm not saying I'm good at it. I may be pretty bad at it, but Okay. All that's, we're all trying to get better. Right. DC: That's fair. That's fair. LT: So D, before we go to the next question, I have two quick things. One, do you notice in every instance Mike's British humility, right? That yes. You notice that all, all throughout, which is which, which we think is awesome, Mike. That that's number one. Um, and, and also Mike, um, when, when you're, when you're treading in this water of, uh, of, of, of where, where you're at, um, I. You know, it is about helping people. And, and that's what I love, D, you know, that's where Mike went to for both of his bosses. Did you notice that? Like it did. It was about, it was about people. It wasn't anything about the technical or no. Or, or those skills. It was about helping those get better. So I think that that was really interesting that Mike pulled those two out. DC: Not surprised at all. LT: Nope. DC: Shall I go to the next question, LT? Do you have had, um, several iterations of your career, Mike, you have been successful enough to have in an agency where you were working, someone actually come to you and say, you know, uh, these, these blokes want to wanna retire? And would you like to buy this agency? Uh, they're not coming to you, Mike, whoever came to you, if they don't think one you could do it. And two, uh, that the, those that were then handing it over to you if they didn't believe our agency is going to be in good hands. 'cause you'll find the same thing, Mike. Your company will start to feel not quite the same, but pretty close like a child. And when we work on brands and businesses and clients, they sort of have a warm spot, uh, in our hearts and we start to think of them as like, oh, this is kind of part of me. Alright, so that doesn't happen unless you're really good. That doesn't happen unless you're really good. But for this question, I want to know about none of that, Mike. Okay. Well I am not even remotely interested in any of that. For this question, we want to know what was your biggest F up? Or let me just put it in your lance, of all of your projects, which one went the most pear shaped. Okay. The most pear shaped. And importantly, what did you learn from it? Mike Maynard: Well, I, I mean, obviously I've listened to the podcast. I kind of knew this was coming. Yeah. And I thought about the answer and actually what did I learn about it? I, I, I'm gonna answer that first. Okay. 'cause I look back and, and I thought, I've made an awful lot of mistakes. I've made mistakes. I thought were career ending. I've made mistakes. I thought were company ending. I've, you know, I've made a lot of mistakes. They actually weren't as bad as I thought they were at the time. DC: Mm-hmm. Mike Maynard: Um, and, and my lesson really is that, you know, you do make mistakes. And it's what you do to fix it. It's what you do to recover that, that really makes a difference. So, um, you know, I've had issues, you know, when, when I was, um. I working at IDTI got interviewed by a publication called The Register really early on. It wanted to basically, um, you know, create scandal in the IT industry, which sounds like an impossible job, but they, they actually did an amazing job of doing it. And they phoned me up and they said, you know, we need to talk to you. They want, want to interview you. So, and I just said, I can't talk about this. It's future products. It's all confidential. And the reporter said, well, actually, it's, it was the founder of the publication. He said, well, you can talk to me or I can make it up. What would you like? And I went, ah, do you know what? Just make it up. Ooh. And he did. And he totally made up a story and he put quotes in from me that had never come from me. And I looked at it, I thought, this is the end of my career. I thought, this is terrible. You know, it's completely wrong. And it also says, I'm talking about confidential things. And actually my boss kind of laughed and said, well, it's obviously not you 'cause it's so wrong. Even you wouldn't get this wrong Mike. So, you know, got through that. You know, I bought Napier, as I say, you know, technology agency three weeks before the.com crash, you know? I remember that.com crash hitting and um, we, we were getting a new phone system back in the day where people had old, you know, proper phones rather than using Skype or phones. LT: Yep. Mike Maynard: Yeah. And, and, um, the phone system didn't work. And I remember saying, well, let's not worry about fixing it because the only people calling are gonna either cancel their contract or cut their budget. So, you know, let's get another day or two until they get hold of us. Um, and, and I really thought at that time, you know, I'd put like all my money and gone into a lot of debt to buy Napier, and I thought it was gonna be all over in two months and it wasn't, you know? And was it difficult? Yeah, of course it was, but we got through it and I, I think that's my lesson is that, you know. People are always making mistakes and you know, we've all gotta try to avoid making the mistakes. We've all gotta do our best to fix the problem, but at the end of the day, you know, don't spend too much time freaking out about that mistake. 'cause it's probably in five, 10 years time, it's gonna be nowhere near as significant as you imagine it will be. LT: That's really interesting. I think, I think Mike, overall, you're, uh, I think that that's really good advice. It's take a deep breath, that's what you're saying, right? And, um, yeah. Uh, this too shall pass. Um, but I, I do want to go back to the one that you mentioned about, uh, earlier, uh, where you just said make it up. Um, if you had to do that again, again, what's the learning from that specifically? Mike Maynard: I mean, that's really interesting. And at the time there was a guy who was trying to make a publication successful by basically creating Scandal. I think I probably wouldn't have said, just make it up. I'd have probably said something like, I can't tell you. You don't wanna publish something that's wrong, so don't make it up. But in reality. He was gonna write a story no matter what I said, I couldn't tell him about the future products. He was gonna make something up. So. Right. You know, I, I think probably building more of a, a bridge to him rather than being, you know, perhaps reacting to his, well, I'm just gonna make it up, comment. Um, would've been a better way, but I'm not sure that would've massively changed what had happened. Um, you know, it, it's one of those things, you know, sometimes things happen, sometimes you can't control stuff. Um, quite often you, you've got much less control than you imagine in business. Um, and you've just gotta like, keep in life doing the right things and trust, trust in the process, I guess, you know? DC: Yeah. Um, Mike, I actually admire what you did. Even though the, the gentleman made up a bunch of, uh, false stuff. I admire it because. You were playing chess, he was playing checkers. His checkers move was, it's either this or that, and I'm gonna write this story the way I wanna write it. Uh, and, and, uh, he threatened you. Mm-hmm. And had you coward to the threat that gentleman would've felt like he could threaten you for the rest of his and your career. He now knows. He, he knew then, and he knows now he can't do that to you. Mm-hmm. He can't do that to you. So he took a shot and you held your, your, uh, your ground. I say to that Brand Nerds is honor your values, live with the fallout, but honor your values. That's number one. Second is this when you started with the lesson, I think, Larry, this is the first time we've had an answer to that question that's started with the lesson. And not the actual mistake. Yeah. Right. And then you said, uh, it's, it's, it's not the mistake, it's what you do to recover. So Mike, um, uh, one of my daughters leads the marketing for our podcaster. She's called Hailey. She's actually listening now. And something I said, I have said to her and her sisters, Lauren and Sydney for years. I start by saying to them, if they come to me and talk about something that happened, it went the wrong way. I say, it's not about the mistake. And then I pause, and then they say it's about the recovery because it is about the re uh, uh, about the recovery. And then finally, and we can move to the next question, it's uh, is this you by Napier, three weeks before the .com bubble? You didn't know that bubble was coming. Very few knew that bubble was coming. Then you mentioned the fact that you had all your, you put all your money into this. And here, Mike, and I really want the Brand Nerds to understand this. 'cause there are many who are listening to this, who are saying, I want to be an entrepreneur. I wanna start a business. I wanna acquire business, whatever the case may be. But they want to be entrepreneurs. And to that, I say wonderful with a caveat. If you, as an entrepreneur, particularly early days, are not willing to put all of your chips in the middle of the table, I submit Mike and Larry, you're not ready to be an entrepreneur. You, you're, you're not ready. So it's not when, it's not if. The moment will come where you go, oh my goodness, I've got all of my chips on this table, money, family, whatever the case may be. Uh, and I may lose it. It's not if that's going to happen, it's when is that going, when are you going to reach that moment where it's like the moment of truth where you go, well, damn, it's all on the table. What am I gonna do now? LT: Yep. DC: Yeah. What am I gonna do now? So, admiration for you, brother. LT: Yep. Mike Maynard: Thank you. LT: All right. Ready for the next question, D? DC: Let's do it. LT: Alright. So Mike, regarding technology and marketing and really, really love to hear what you have to say here. 'cause I don't think there's anyone better, uh, for answering this question than you. So can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can tell us areas that you think they should be leery and simply avoid. Mike Maynard: Yeah, so this, this is a real challenge for me, LT, because I'm a nerd. I mean, there's two sorts of people in the world and, and you know, hopefully no one will be offended by this. Um, but there's nerds and there's norms, and I'm definitely not normal, so I'm a real nerd. Um, so for me, I think the challenge is, is I'm very easily distracted by the latest shiny bit of technology. DC: Mm-hmm. Mike Maynard: Um, and, and I know that, and I've wasted a lot of time on it. And I think one of the things that I've really found. In marketing particularly, but also in some other areas. But particularly marketing is there's way more technology than anyone can deal with. Mm-hmm. And there's way more technology than actually anyone needs. Yep. Um, and so I, and this is perhaps a little counterintuitive, but from my point of view, being a nerd, being someone who loves technology, I'm always pushing myself to avoid jumping on that new tool or trying that new approach. And I'm always trying to keep things consistent. It, it's really interesting. So, I mean, we work quite a lot in Germany. Germany is a fascinating country. Um, and one of the things about Germany is they talk a lot about workflow. DC: Workflow, okay. Mike Maynard: And people outside of Germany don't really understand. It's not really process, it's literally exactly how you do the work. And Germans, culturally, are really good at building very efficient workflows and then resisting change to them. Um, and you look at it, and in Germany quite often you'll see, you know, agencies or, or businesses, and you look at 'em, go, they're really behind on technology. Um, you know, they're still paper-based. They're still, you know, and you look and you say, this can't work. But actually they've built this workflow and it works really well. And what they're not doing is changing it every other week with a new tool or a new approach, or a new technique. And so I think what you've gotta do, and, and again, this is something, you know, I'd love to be able to do, but you know, I, I struggle with is get the balance between having, you know, a process, a workflow, a way of doing things that works and also adopting the right amount of new technology. Um, you know, and a great example is, you know, I see so many clients. They've got unbelievably powerful marketing automation systems running. And yet they're not using those systems. They're using maybe 10%, 20% of the capabilities. And yet on the other side, they're still playing with all these new tools that look cool and exciting. They'd probably be better served if they spent more time using what they've got rather than looking for something new. So, so I'm gonna say in marketing, there's so much technology that actually it's a job of marketers to kind of push back a bit and be more selective. LT: Oh, I love this. Oh, I love this. This is good. D, you wanna, you wanna hit this first? DC: You, you, you go brother. I'll go after you. LT: Okay. So I have, I have two quick, uh, comments. One is when Mike was, he originally said, I wasted a lot of time because I like the shiny new object and, you know, yeah. Mike, I would, I would actually say push back on you big time. You're, you're actually not wasting time at all because you're seeing what is. Actually worthy and not right. So that's the, that's one thing. That's just one quick comment. But the second thing is you, yourself being embedded in technology, both again, at, with your foundation of your career, being an engineer, and then obviously spending the bulk of your career, um, in, in where you are today and, and B2B marketing. Um, I think it's awesome that you're, that you're talking about being very selective, right? That's what you're really saying is like, let's not go for the shiny new object and bringing up the, the, the acculturation of what they do in Germany I think is, is really good because, you know, I think too often, um, the, the culture. Is, I'm gonna say is ADD, like, it's like, oh, let's get the shiny new thing. And, and really what you're saying is how is it helping my business? Right? And that's the question we should ask, is that before jumping on something new, how is it actually helping the business and the project that I'm working on, right. Is that what you're really saying, Mike? Mike Maynard: That's an absolutely perfect way of putting it, LT. I mean, I, I think it's, you've gotta do something that really benefits you rather than just use something that's new and, and the way you put it was brilliant. LT: Thank you. I, I don't get accused of that too often, so thank you. D? DC: Okay. Uh, I, I, I have a, uh, affection, uh, shall we say Brand Nerds in, um, German technology, uh, for, for for German technology. So, uh. Mike, there's a reason why Mercedes-Benz. BMW, Porsche, Audi, Volkswagen. Why these car brands stand the test of time. Yep. They are German made cars. They are proper automobiles. And I want to go to an example using that juxtaposed to the shiny new thing. Alright, so, uh, I'll give two examples. In 1994, Porsche released their model. It was a 911 model, but it was a 993. Okay? This, this particular model saved the Porsche company. Alright? Now, um, it started in 1994 and went through 1998. So it was just this period of time that they made this 993 variant of the 911. Alright? In 1994, one of the new things that were, that was in America was this technology called OnStar. So you hit a button and you, you're in an accident. Oh, they will send people right to you, that kinda thing. So this was the sexy new technology. Okay? This was not in a Porsche 993. Okay. A Porsche 993 did not have this technology, but the American brands did have this technology. What this 9, 9 3 had was something very simple, designed, I'm certain on a piece of paper, and then put in some CAD design or whatever, and that is the sound of the door when it shut. Mm-hmm. Mike and Larry, it sounds like a tank. You, there is nothing that can replicate the sound of a door closing. Of a 993, 911. It's like zoom, like, you know, this thing is like you are in this thing and you're good. There's not like fancy technology, sexy, shiny things associated with that, but it worked. Now, let's go from 1994 to 1998. 1998 was the last year, 1998. Domer, Benzs buys Chrysler. Okay. The company that had OnStar, the shiny new thing in 1998, now that ended up not working. Why did it not work? I think that Benz got excited about a shiny new technology thing. Some things that were going on in Chrysler land. I'm from Detroit, as the Brand Nerds know, and they lost focus on the long hail processes that German manufacturing and technology requires. And we did not have that in America. That was never gonna work, Mike. That was never gonna work, Larry. But they got distracted. So sometimes I'm, I'm arriving at a point here, Mike. I swear I'm arriving at a point. Sometimes old school is the best school. Yeah. When blended with new technology. But when you throw out all of the old school and replace it with all of the new school, there's a technical term for this, Mike. It's called problemo right. That's my takeaway. LT: Yeah. Um, I just wanna point out one more thing de before we go to the next question. Yeah. Um, Mike, you, you, your crickets, your foundation. For me, it's basketball and I had the, uh, uh, the great opportunity to go to some, I was a pretty good player growing up and there's a, a, a gentleman by the name of Huey Brown, who's 91 years young. Mm-hmm. And just retired. As a, as a television commentator, he's still totally sharp as attack and everything. And Huey was a great coach, and he did a lecture. I saw him do a lecture, Mike, for one hour on, and this is the, the way he talked, when to pass and when to shoot one hour. Okay. And I'm, I'm arriving at a point here too. With technology, we, as marketers need to know when to pass and when to shoot. And so we've gotta be aware of these technologies, but we have to understand what's something that we need to embrace, right, to shoot, to take in, versus the ones that we say, you know what, that's nice to know, glad we know about that, but that's not something that we need to integrate right now, meaning pass. So I, I think that that's an important part of what we need to be thinking about as marketers as we go forward. DC You wanna hit the next question? I do indeed. DC: Mike, the balanced engineer and creative person, what are you most proud of? Mike Maynard: I, I mean, there there's lots of answers to that. I'm gonna answer it from a, a business point of view rather than from a personal point of view. Yeah. From, from a pure business point of view. Absolutely. LT: That's very British too, by the way, but go ahead, Mike. Mike Maynard: Yeah, but absolutely selling, selling Napier to the employees, um, oh, okay. DC: That's awesome. Mike Maynard: You know, and, and I'm a bit of a hippie, so, you know, it kind of fits with my values, but I'm not that much of a hippie. So you notice it was sell and not give. Yeah. Um, so, uh, you know, that, that, that's been something I really wanted to do and it's worked really well. So I've, I, it is just been great and I've been proud of it because I think the whole company's got behind it. That's made a huge difference. LT: Wow. Really good. So Mike, what, when, what was the impetus for you to do it other than to, you know, was, was there, was there an event or was there something where you feel you felt like it would be better for the folks that you're working really hard with shoulder to shoulder that, that they have some skin in the game? Mike Maynard: Well, it, like everything, I mean, I think people imagine that things are a lot simpler than they are. There's lots of factors involved. Um, but basically I bought three agencies, um, well actually I bought four, if you count, buying Nappe originally. Um, and buying an agency doesn't always go very well. DC: Mm-hmm. Mike Maynard: In fact, sometimes it goes really, really badly. And I've had that experience of it going really, really badly. And even if financially it's brilliant, like emotionally it can be terrible. Mm-hmm. Um, and it. I dunno whether it's incredibly hard to predict whether it's gonna go wrong or whether I'm just really bad at predicting it. But I've not done a great job of actually predicting what would work and what wouldn't. Mm. Um, so I'd been through that process and I didn't really wanna go through that process again. Mm. Um, and also, you know, looking at it, I really wanted to have something that started forcing me to, to look at, you know. A point to step back, but without having to like suddenly leave the company. You work your two years of your earnout and then you leave and that's it. And that's typically the way, you know, any kind of acquisition works. So, um, I wanted, something's a bit more flexible and, you know, honestly, um, I'm in a, I was in this amazing agency group, so group of agency leaders, um, and the organizer, an amazing guy called Daniel Della Cruz. Um, he brought someone in to talk about employee ownership in the uk and how the tax, uh, system basically lets you sell the business to the, the employees and benefits you. And I just loved it and I just thought it was a great way to go. Um, it hasn't worked out always as well as I hoped. You know, there's been some, some road bumps along the way. I, I would probably have done it slightly differently if I started now, mainly around issues around getting payments and things like that and making it, giving the employees more responsibility earlier on. Um. But overall I think it's been great. So, you know, I mean, that's the thing I'm really proud of. Mm-hmm. LT: D, any thoughts? DC: No, LT: I just have one quick, I have a quick question from Mike. Follow up. So, uh, overall, have, have the employees been enthusiastic about it? Has it, has it worked? Really? Mike Maynard: So, so that's a great question. Um, have the employees been enthusiastic about it? Yes. Has it worked? Yes. Has it been perfect? No, eh, not really. Um, you know, I, I own stock in different companies. I don't think of it like it's my company. I just own a little bit of it. I don't think there's any reason why, you know, an employee at Napier should necessarily be any different to any other stockholder in terms of the way they, they think about a company now. They are, they're much more. Enthusiastic. Much more bought in, but they're still not, and, and, and this is the classic phrase, and I find it, it's a really difficult phrase. They're still not thinking like they're an owner. And the answer is, well, they're not an owner. They're part of it. Yeah. And, and, you know, so they shouldn't think like an owner, they shouldn't be, you know, working, um, in the same way as somebody who's founded the business. That's ridiculous. I mean, when you think about it, it's absolutely crazy that someone would think that that's real. But people do. So I think what you've gotta realize is there's a balance. There's, you know, what you'd like it to be utopia, that everyone's like, oh, this is my company now. I'm totally committed. I'm gonna work, you know, 18 hour days and every weekend. And it's the best thing in the world to be allowed to do that. It's like that's never gonna happen. Um, but equally people do recognize that if the company makes more profit. They get paid more and, and that, you know, fundamentally links that company success to their, their being rewarded. I'd love it to be a stronger link. Um, and, and basically, uh, and without wanting to get into too much of the details, basically you kind of give the shares and then the, the employees pay you back through the profits. Once the employees have, have managed to complete the payback, then they get, you know, much bigger rewards, much more flexibility. The company becomes really, really exciting then. Um, and I would've liked to have perhaps structured the, the deal differently so they had more flexibility earlier on. Um, but that's the only thing I'd change. LT: That's a lot to be proud of. Yes. Mike Maynard: Thank you. LT: D, we ready for the next segment? DC: We are brother. LT: All right, DC, Mike, What's Popping? DC: What's popping? LT: Mike, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply have something happening in around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And I think you have a good topic for us. Mike Maynard: So I've got a simple question for you. Why do people not go into B2B PR and marketing? DC: Hmm. LT: My first thought is it's for some people, it's not sexy. Mike Maynard: I, I think, you know, I, I think array lt, I mean, I know I've actually lectured, I've talked to students, so I think it's worse than not being sexy. I think actually a lot of people don't understand it. Yeah. Um, and, and the way I'd explain this is, you know, if you are going to, to university, you're gonna study, uh, communications or, you know, uh, study something creative. You, you go to university, your only experience is consumer brands. You've never been in a business to business situation. DC: Right. Mike Maynard: Um, so you've got no idea what it's like. And then you, the, the lecturers at university, they're kinda stuck because they know you don't know what B2B is. So all the examples are B2C. LT: So true. Mike Maynard: Everything you learn is consumer. Um, if you learn about, you know, building a brand, it's about building a consumer brand. It's not about building a a B2B brand. Um, and then people leave, they get consumer jobs 'cause that's what they know and then they're kind of stuck and they, you know, it feels like a big jump. So I think it's really difficult and I think it's down to, I. Actually B2B brands really trying hard to get young people into B2B at a time when frankly, it's not just uncool. They've got no idea what B2B really is. LT: That's a, that's a great point. And then also, let's be really transparent and open. Uh, Mike, we, DC and I, were both part of, um, Georgia Tech Innovation, um, um, marketing conference, um, in, uh, in February. And shout out to Tim Halloran and his group over there. And one of the things that came up a lot were students, both undergrad and graduate students who are very nervous about AI. Is there going to even be a marketing job? I, we DC And I think that there definitely will be. We, this is leaning into AI and utilizing it in a way that's gonna help you not be afraid of it, but there's that looming threat to right. Mike Maynard: Yeah, and I think actually what I'd say is AI is gonna impact consumer first before B2B. DC: Oh yeah. Mike Maynard: So in the world of consumer, there's way more data that's been sucked into these AI models. So, um, they, they understand consumer more. The requirements around, you know, precision of communication is very different. You know, if you're talking to an engineer, you've gotta get it right. And if you are just fractionally wrong, the engineer knows. So, you know, from my point of view, if you're worried about AI going to B2B, you know, I'm not guaranteeing it's gonna be completely immune, but it's gonna be so much easier and so much better than working in consumer where already people are being impacted by ai. I mean, AI's gonna impact the whole of marketing, that's for sure. But I think there's, you know, at the moment there doesn't seem to be, um, you know, any real believable case that AI is gonna remove everybody from B2B marketing. I mean, that just doesn't seem credible. LT: Agreed. What, what's your thoughts, Mike, about, because you've, you've obviously thought about it and, you know, we have, obviously, you know, our background's B2C and, uh, we, as we said, we're not BS and we have great respect for great B2B marketers, but, um, I never thought of it that when there's case studies in business school, you're right, there's, they're really almost exclusively B2C because that's what people know. So is there a whole sort of thought process processes to, you know, talk to, uh, the marketing, uh, professors out there to try and imbue some more case studies from that are, that are B2B because that career is right for people? Mike Maynard: Yeah, so I, I mean, I, I lectured for a while, um, at a local university. I. I'm not sure I did a good job. 'cause I, I, I'm an engineer, so, you know, as I say, I'm a nerd, nerd. I'm in that definite nerd category. So one of the things I always used to say was, I can tell you something that you as communication students, if you listen to me, it'll have the biggest impact on your career of anything you hear during your course. And, and they're all like, okay, what's this guy ar he's not gonna tell us. I go really learn how to use Excel and everybody's face just falls. And it's like, you know, if you're doing a communication degree, you don't love Excel. Um, but the reality is in, in, you know, almost all forms of marketing and, and particularly, you know, in PR where I am. Mm-hmm. I mean, Excel is so widely used. If you're great at Excel, it makes a huge difference. Um, but, you know, I I I think having B2B people out there will help, even if they say use Excel. Um, I think it's also bringing more people on, um, at a younger age. Uh, one of the things that. I hate about B2B is the agencies that say we only employ senior people, or indeed the clients that say that as well. Mm-hmm. Um, because they'll go, we only employ senior people. You get great service. And it's basically what they're saying is, we are relying on the rest of the industry to train up our people and then we're gonna steal them. Um, and, and that's not looking to build the industry. So I, I'm a huge believer in hiring people young and developing them and hiring, you know, more people who are young and, and frankly they're cheaper when they're young, but hire more of them, spend more time developing them rather than hire someone who's, you know, much more experienced but much more expensive. So you want to return from day one. Mm-hmm. Um, so we've got a program we bring in young people. We probably don't do enough, I'm not gonna say in any way we're the best agency, but we bring in people, you know, at straight out of university who want to get into marketing. Um, and we've also brought people, you know, straight out of high school as well. Um. And that's worked so well for us. We've had some absolutely brilliant people. I mean, you know, recently we, we hired Jess and she's been incredible. She's really dived into PR, um, been super enthusiastic. Um, before that we hired Megan. You know, Megan again is another great person for us. She's working really well again on the, the PR side. Um, and actually Megan recommended Jess to us, so she did a great job. You know, we, we had someone called Maddie who's working on the digital side for us. Um, and she came, you know, straight from basically a performing arts degree, uh Oh wow. Into digital marketing. And she's incredible and she's brilliant, and she's actually really good at Excel as well. But that's another thing. LT: Yeah. So, back to your point, right, Mike? Mike Maynard: Yeah. So, so I think, you know, you can hire brilliant people, and that's what I'm trying to say is I don't think anyone can change this on their own, but if more agencies were willing to take a risk on younger people, bring them into the industry, let's get more people into B2B, that would be great. And let's steal all the great people away from you B2C agencies. LT: That's, that, that, that's really cool. I, I, I'm glad you added that because I think, um, again, given your great background and you know, as Mike and I, by the way, DC we talked about Ansys, you know, in our prep meeting. DC: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. LT: And, and you know, that we just have great, and, and Mike talked about, yeah. You know, how, how great a job Ansys has done. Um, and Brand Nerds, if you look it up, ANSYS is a billion dollar plus company. They've actually been acquired, but um. They are a B2B company that you would never would've heard of, but they're a billion plus in revenue. And so there's a lot of opportunities, there's a lot of Ansys is out there, and that's what I think Mike is saying, and that you would, it would behoove everyone to make sure they're checking every, checking all the opportunities out. Mike Maynard: Yeah. And I think if you are, if you're a young person, you're maybe at university, you're looking to enter, you know, a career in communications or branding or marketing, you know, you can go to consumer and consumer's fine, but in consumer you don't get projects where the average sales value is measured in the hundreds of millions of dollars. That's true. And you get that in B2B and, and that is so cool when you're impacting things that are so big. Um, and the sales process is so complex. I find it really interesting. Um, so you know that, that's my pitch to people. Just consider B2B. You may not be familiar with it, but it, it's really actually a cool career. LT: It was a good pitch. De should we get to the, this is Mike. This is great. Thank you so much. We we're, uh, we're down to the last segment, the learnings. Shall I begin? DC: Please, brother. LT: Alright, so, uh, so I have five, I think really good nuggets from Mike here. Um, really great ones. Um, so like Mike, early in his career when life presents you opportunities and like Mike did with buying the agency, seize it Brand Nerds. You know it when it's there and seize it. That's number one. Uh, number two, Brand Nerds as you aspire to moving up the ranks, as Mike did with the two people who influenced him earlier in his career, seek out the leaders, and I'm gonna say the leaders who are truly helping others improve. And then think about how you can replicate what they are doing in your own way, in your own identity. Right? That's number two. Number three, most every time when you f up it is just not as bad as you think it is. Mm-hmm. In that moment, take a deep breath and pause and like DC has told his wonderful, uh, children, Hailey, Lauren and Sydney, it is not the f up, but it's how you get up and how you respond. Mm-hmm. So that's number three. Number four, keep the people on your team front and center for helping them achieve success. And this will take you a long way. That's what Mike has really done with selling the agency to them. And so that is bountiful. That's one of those win-win for everyone. So that's number four. And number five is what Mike said before. Brand Nerds, B2B marketing is opportunities really big. So if you're early or mid in your career, you should joke, go consciously check it out and see if it's something that is, that might be a great opportunity for you. Those are my five. DC: Those was a great LT, Mike, I'm not sure how this is gonna go alright, but, but I'm gonna give it my best shot here. This is the part of the show where, uh, Brand Nerds who have listened to this, uh, before, where I make an attempt to distill what I've heard over the course of our time together and identify, just in my opinion, in my opinion, what is it that this guest is providing us in the marketing world and perhaps beyond. Um, that they can do that. They are here to do that. If they weren't doing it the other 7.2 or 3 billion of an of us on the planet, we wouldn't get it if this person weren't providing this. So I'm gonna attempt to do that here with you now, Mike, and I'm gonna go to the opening when I talked about, at the very opening this art and science that you have and the left brain and right brain, uh, excellence that you have. And then you talked about how you've got this engineering thing that is actually more creative than one would think at solving problems and marketing. So it was all about. Balance. And even when you went down to the question about this is when we were in our five questions about technology and marketing, and you brought up the, in, in, in the German area, process and workflow and new technology, they, they, they're not so, uh, hasty in German culture and business to toss away the, the folders, if you would, the manila folders with information about process and workflow to go do this new thing called, uh, Dropbox. I'm making this up. Of course. And that was all about balance Then. Um, then when you were talking about, uh, your career and who's had the most influence, you, you went into managers that had this ability to sort of protect you from, uh, from uh, being distracted. And the manager didn't have to do the work or tell you what to do, to do the work. They just had to protect you and the team so that the team could do the work. So there was this balance of leadership and team, and then you started to really mess with my head. Uh, as I started to look back over our conversation, Mike, when you brought up the, uh, the Gray Nichols and the bats, the cricket bats, and you shared the story about what it meant to you looking at your father, John, um, and then you telling a story of the history to your son, Jonathan, that nearly brought him to tears. And then finally, before this all started to coalesce for me, Mike, I. I thought about you selling Napier to the employees, and yes, maybe you would've made some different decisions if you were doing it again, but you did it. You did sell Napier to the employees. So here you are as someone who's acquired an agency. So you're now the head, yet you say to yourself, I want, I want the employees to have the ability to enjoy some of the fruits of the ownership of the company. So again, you got this balance thing and I just balanced, kept bouncing off of my head, and then the potent story about cricket, which then leads me to this. This is what I think you are, Mike. This is what I think you bring that no one else brings. I think you are the all rounder of the marketing game, the all rounder. So let me break this down Brand Nerds, because those of you who do not know cricket. You may not know what I mean when I say all rounder. So I'm going to read for you what AI has said about all rounder, and then I'm gonna pause and get Mike to respond. So here is what it says about an all rounder. It says an all rounder is a cricket player who excels at multiple aspects of the game, not just one, multiple aspects of the game, notably both batting. This is with this, this Gray Nichols bat, or other bats that Mike talked about and bowling. So this is in, in American powerless. It's like pitching. So this is when you bowl, you roll up and you bowl hit the ball, and you're trying to knock the wickets off. It says they possess the ability to contribute significantly with the bat, often playing crucial innings. While also being effective bowlers capable of taking wickets and restricting runs. All rounders are valuable assets to their team as they provide balance. Balance, allowing for flexibility in team composition and strategy, flexibility in team composition and strategy. I, I can buy a firm. I can also have the employees buy the firm. They are often recognized for their ath, athleticism, versatility, and strategic thinking on the field. This is what an all rounder is described as in the game of cricket. And my belief, Mike, just repeating myself here, is when your father gave you that gift of that wonderful bat, he was not just giving you a gift of cricket. He was giving his son a mindset on how to approach business. And that is why I think you brother are the all rounder of the marketing game. Mike Maynard: I, I mean, you're, you are both incredibly kind and, um, I, I, I'm smiling and, and I have to tell you a story. So, when I was young, my dad talked to me about cricket a lot. I mean, he was a big cricket player. I loved cricket when I was young. I still play cricket. Um, and I remember him one day, he said, you know, you really should be an all rounder Mike. And, and what, so, so DC you were absolutely on point. However, being English, it wasn't quite that positive. You said you've gotta remember that, you know, you can bat for a whole day in cricket. I. Or you can go in for one ball and be out. And he said, if you're in for one ball and be out, you don't want to be a batsman. 'cause your whole day is terrible. So at least you're an all rounder, you do badly at one thing. You could do better at another. There's always a second chance. And maybe that's also, you know, part of the lessons as well is that if you've got a second chance, you know, often what's gone wrong, you know isn't as bad as you think. DC: Wow. Mike Maynard: But yeah, being all rounder because, uh, because then you, uh, you, you know, you have the opportunity to make up for your mistakes earlier on in the game. LT: So, so DC was against scarily spot on, is that what you're saying? Mike Mike Maynard: Terrifyingly spot on. Yeah. LT: Wow, that's awesome. I wasn't expecting that. So, Mike, before we sign off here, uh, we've had such a wonderful conversation with you. Anything that, um, I. That you wanna share with the Brand Nerds, um, you know, in, uh, in reflection about this conversation. Mike Maynard: So, I, I mean, I, I only go on podcasts to learn from smart people. I mean, it's, it's the easiest way to meet really super smart people. So I appreciate, you know, both of you with some really interesting things, but I'm gonna pick just one. And, and LT, you talked about that decision in basketball between passing or shooting. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, if we're gonna look at what we've discussed today mm-hmm. That decisions that you make, you've gotta think really hard about how you make decisions. You've gotta really think, you know, when is the right time to pass, when is the right time to shoot? And you've gotta do your best when you do it. But a lot of the time, you know you're gonna take that shot. You think it's the right thing to do, but you're gonna miss. And then it's how you recover what you do to get better. So I, I think that's kind of the lesson, is that really you've gotta, you know, think about stuff, prepare yourself so you've got the best chance of being successful, and then accept that even you've got the best chance of being successful, you probably won't be. Um, but if you're not successful, there's always an opportunity to recover and it's go and win that ball back and take another shot and actually hit the basket the second time. LT: Man, that's good. DC: That is good. That's really good. LT: That, that is, that is sign off material right there. That was awesome. Mike, uh, Brand Nerd. Thank you so much for listening to Brand Beats and Bites. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom DiOro. DC: The podfather! LT: That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share And for those on Apple podcasts if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.