Latest / NO FILTER / Joe Rogan Experience _1274 - Nicholas Christakis(M4A_128K)

Transcript

Joe Rogan Experience _1274 - Nicholas Christakis(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Gay folks took over the rainbow four three two. Well
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: it worked today, Jamie. Yes, Hello, Nicholas, Hey Joe, how
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: are you man? Great to meet you. It's really good
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to meet you too.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: I became aware of you like many people did with
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: the infamous Halloween costume incident at Yale where explain that
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: for people who don't know what happened, because it was
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: kind of a crazy scene.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: It went national. Yes, it was a moment when around
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the country many students were struggling with how to balance
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: conflicting sort of needs and close conflicting needs. How on
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the one hand, to create an environment in schools where
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: everyone sort of felt welcome. As we've democratized admissions to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: our American universities, as I think we should have, people
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: from all walks of life have started moving into these institutions,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: claiming them for their own, which I think is appropriate.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, these institutions had wonderful heritages
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: of commitment to free expression and open debate and reason
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: as a principle for resolving our differences, and some of
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: those values came into tension, and so around the country
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: there was a lot of heat about this, and I
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: happened to walk into a propeller myself and wound up
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: in some challenging circumstances. And you know, I it was
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: not it was not the worst thing that's ever happened
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: to me, but you know it was in the top
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: ten challenging moments I've had in my life.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Let's say, Yeah, that's a very lawyer like way of
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: describing exactly what happened.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Well, yes, I mean the thing is, you know, I
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: you know, I struggle. I mean, you can tell the
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: story if you want, and then I can correct things.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: But here's the things. It's my job to be a teacher,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: and I have taken responsibility for teaching young people. And
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: it is the case that many people lost their their minds,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: I mean lost their senses, and and the faculty too, incidentally.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's one thing to talk about
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: people in there in college aged people, but then you
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: know the faculty also didn't necessarily do what they should
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: have done. But the thing is is that, you know,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: my commitment, my commitment is to is to teaching more generally,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to be defined by that event.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I don't want that to become the most important thing
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: about me. You know, I have this book or this
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: book that we're going to talk about that is an
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: important thing in my life and stantiates my values. It
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: talks about what I think is important about the world.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: So so I'm trying to be balanced about it. Just
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: it's one thing that happened. I did my best. It's
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: in the past, so.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Let me let me help out here, because you're being
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: so nice about the whole thing, so people know what
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: we're talking about. There was an incident that was captured
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: on some on cell phone where you were standing many people.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: It was an hour of footage, five or six different angles.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: So a clip went viral. But I want to emphasize
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: that there were many people filming that day and an
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: hour or more of the two or three hours I
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: was out there as available.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that you had the courage to do
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: that though, to stand out there and talk to those kids,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: but some of them were clearly there's something that happens
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: when people become extremely self indulgent when they know that
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: they have this platform and they have someone who is
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: in a position of authority, and they get to hamstring
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: them in front of the public. And that's what I
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: felt was going on. Just my understanding of human nature.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I knew what she was doing. What she was doing
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: by shouting and screaming, this is our fucking home, you know,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: you know we're supposed to be safe here. I was like, Oh,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I see what's going on. She's throwing up the flag
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: of virtue for all of her friends to see how
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: amazing she was. So she's putting on a show. People
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: do that. It's human nature. You handled it admirably. You
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: stood there and you just listened to her, and you
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: never yelled back, and you never raised your voice, and
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: you remain calm.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: But that sort of environment where.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: The children and I want to say children, they're basically
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: adults but acting like children.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And this is one of the ironies. The people that age,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: you know, can fight in wars and lose their lives.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: And so I think it's a difficult challenge because on
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: the one hand, it's right and appropriate to hold people
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: responsible for their actions. Certainly, if you're twenty years old,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: you're an adult. You're still growing, you're still changing, you're
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: still learning. I'm not the same man I was when
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: I was twenty, But you have to be responsible for
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: your behavior, yes, and so I don't think you get
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: a total pass either. It's hard.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: No, you do not get a total pass. And you know,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: for folks who don't have a twenty year old in
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: their life and don't remember what it was like, you know,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: you're not a fully formed thing yet you're filled with chaos, emotions,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: and hormones. And then you're at school and you're probably away.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: From the instructions of your parents for the first time,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: and you know you're cutting loose and trying out new
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: new ways of communicating.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: That way, it's a lot of it's a mess, but
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: most people felt horrified watching that that you were subjected
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: to that when you're being very reasonable. And also what
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: it all came about was your wife had sent out
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: an email saying like, hey, maybe it should be okay
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: for someone to wear a fucked up Halloween costume. You know,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: maybe it's okay for someone to dress up like crazy horse.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: We have Well, well, actually, just to be clear, what
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Erica was saying in that note was not this is
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: very important intellectual distinction. I think we've we've lost a
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: lot of nuance in our political lives in general, in
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: our country right now and also in the in the
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: nuance in the way we think about difficult topics. So
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: what Erica was saying was not that necessarily the people.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: She was not taking a position on any particular costumes
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: like this is okay. In fact, many of the costumes
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: that would have offended the students offend her. What she
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: was saying was that she didn't think the university should
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: be telling students what to wear, And she was asking
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: the students, do you, students, really, at this age at Yale,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: do you really want the university to be sending you
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: guidance on what to wear? Perhaps you should think about that.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: You're adults, you're smart, You're in an environment that privileges
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: free expression. Do you really want to grant the power
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: to an institution to tell you how to communicate? And
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: people then thought that she was saying that she was
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: defending a particular course of action. What she was saying
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: was she was saying, do you students really want to
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: surrender that kind of control over your own lives to
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: older adults? And apparently many students did. Actually they wanted
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: they did, so.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I don't believe they did. I think they wanted absolute
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: enforcement of what they thought to be wrong or right.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I think that's right. So they many, but
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: not all of the students. I mean. Let's also be
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: very clear, and part of the motivation in Erica writing
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: that note was that many of her students, and in fact,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: many hundreds of other students, felt infantilized by this policy.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: And there had been a big build up prior to
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: that event, including an article in The New York Times
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: about these Halloween costume policies around the country and weren't
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: they kind of ridiculous? And so there was a kind
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: of a ferment where people were saying, wait a minute,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: do we really need adults to be told in this institution,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: especially given its commitments to open expression what to wear.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: And keep in mind that there could be many ways
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: in which a costume that offends you might not might
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I might not know why. So let's say you had
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: been abused by a priest and you were one of
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: the rules said you shouldn't mock religion, for example, was
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: what one of the one of the provisions. So so
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: a university wide email went out signed by thirteen people saying,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: you know, don't mock people's deeply held faith traditions. Well,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: what if for the sake of argument, you had been
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: abused by a priest and you wanted in Halloween to
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: dress up as a Catholic priest for example, you know,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: holding a doll, and someone else who had a different
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: who was Catholic, was very deeply offended by that. Well,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: who should adjudicate that, like, you know, is it the
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: role of the institution to come down and say, yes,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: you can express yourself this way, No, you cannot. And
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: so the argument was, let the young people learn, let
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: them sort it out themselves, Let them learn by talking
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: to each other, expressing themselves, saying you know, that hurts
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: my feelings. Here's why it hurts my feelings, and the
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: other person say, oh, I understand or I don't understand.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: I reject that reason and sort of buy into a
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: kind of commitment to free and open expression that actually,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I think ultimately serves the objectives of righteous social progress.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: If we really want to do better in our society
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: or in any society, in my view, we have to
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: create an environment where we can talk to each other,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: grant good faith, listen, carefully, make subtle distinctions, and free
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: people up to express what they're thinking, so we kind
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: have a real marketplace of ideas that's my commitment or
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: my belief. Well, that's a wonderful belief. I love it.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's really I couldn't agree with you more enthusiastically.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: That's really. That sounds like the best possible environment for
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: growing up and learning, as long as you have someone
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: to sort of moderate or someone to mediate if things
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: go sideways.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, or I don't think you necessarily need a third
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: party mediator, but you do need a shared understanding of
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: core liberal principles. And these principles do include, as I
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, a kind of commitment to free and open expression,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: a commitment to debate, a commitment to reason. So how
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: are you and I going to come to a better
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: understanding of what is true about the world. We could
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: fight right, and then the stronger person would decide what's right.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: We could vote doesn't seem quite right either, you know,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty Cardinals voted that Galileo was wrong.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: That didn't make Galileo wrong. Or we could use principles
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: of reason and inquiry to try to appreciate the world together. Right,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: we're looking out at the world and saying that's confusing.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: You know, does the sun, does the earth revolve around
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: the sun, or does the sun revolve around the earth
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: or that's confusing. Should a king have monarch, you know,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: should a king have ultimate authority in a state? Or
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: is that not how we want to organize a state.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: So we you and I look at the world and
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: debate and think about okay, and we exchange reasons, and
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: we use evidence and ways of understanding and studying the world.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: That to me is the only way to truth. Actually, now,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: some people will think that religion is a way to truth, right,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: They think that the truth is, you know, is God
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: given for example. Now, I am very sympathetic to religious
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: belief systems, but I don't think that's a way to truth.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: It's a way to some truths. Actually it's a way
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: to some wisdom. But anyway, so that's what our universities
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: and our society. Our universities are officially committed to that.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: The models of our universities are all about free inquiry
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: and pursuit of knowledge, and our country is committed to that.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: In our Bill of Rights, right we have a commitment
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: to free and open expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: and so forth, and those ground rules then, in my view,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: make it possible for us to have a better society,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: and there's more like way. I'm sure we will get
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: into it.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: No, I'm sure we will. Those Again, I couldn't agree
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: with you more enthusiastically. I just think we need more
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: reasonable conversations and less screaming and less shouting people down, and.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Less this mob action. I guess.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, the mob action is very weird because I don't
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: remember it well from the like from the Vietnam War
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: protests to what's going on today, there was this long
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: gap where you didn't hear about university shutting down speech. Yes,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: this is fairly new, this is within the last half
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: decade or so.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Well, let's not Yeah, yes, yes, I mean they're always
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: there's there's always an undercurrent of tension about this at
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: universities and in our society at large. You know, let's
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: not forget the McCarthy era where you had the right
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: wing was you know, really interested in shutting down communists,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Like if you were a professor or an artist who
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: had far left political views, you were screwed, Yes, and
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: that's what was wrong.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Or even if you went to a communist meeting, yes,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: find out what it was all about.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, just to educate yourself. Yes. In fact, that's a
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: great example because that's like right now. I see a
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: lot of people be criticized for following online people they
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: disagree with, Yes, which is nuts crazy, Like yeah, so
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: I I just because I follow someone doesn't mean I
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: agree with what they're saying. I'm interested to learn what
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: are they saying. I'm friends with people. Oh, yes, me too.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I am friends with so many people I don't agree with.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I have a friend I have. I have friends across
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: the political spectrum from the I don't have any monarchists
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: among my friends. I don't have any reds who are
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: who are monarchists, but I have friends from the far
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: rights of far left. I have a friend who really
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: believes he's so libertarian he thinks there should be private
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: ownership of roads. Whoa, yeah, I mean he's yeah, I
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: think that's ridiculous. And we debate he must be white,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: yeah he is actually yeah, my wife, My wife says
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: she would just once like to meet a poor libertarian. Yeah,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: a poor female libertarian. Yes. No, yeah, that's a ridiculous position.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I think so private roads the yeah, okay, but so
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: here's the thing, but okay, how are we going to
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: persuade this man that he's He also thinks, somewhat less controversially,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: it's harder decision. He also thinks that you you shouldn't
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: be you should be able to sell you your organs.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: You know, we should have a market in kidneys that
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: you you know, you right now while you're alive. Yeah,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: you can give away one of your kidneys. Well, but yeah,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: you can, and we allow you to give it away,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: but we don't allow you to sell it. Wasn't there
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: an instance, Jamie, that you were telling me about about
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: a young guy who sold this kidney to get an iPhone?
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Was there an in another country? Yes?
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, and wound up having an infection and lost his
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: second kidney as well.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, And then would need to be yes, these things yeah,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: and these things yeah, these things happen in the Yeah,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: but in the United States it's prohibited. You can't do that.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: You also can't sell your blood in the United States.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: There's a reason for that, yes, And that's a good reason,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: a good public health reason.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because people who want to sell their blood are
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: usually fucked up.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Correct, and so it's not a safe The blood supplies
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: safer in countries where you were poarily, yeah, altruistically doing
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: it exactly, yes, but the kidney is a harder case. Anyway,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: he believes that he he anyways, so I love debating
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: him and I learned from him. Like recently he said
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: to me, and I and I think I have a
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: better answer. He said, he doesn't understand why blackmail is illegal.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Oh Jesus. But the point is the point anarchists, anarchists
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: and libertarians, all of them need their asses kicked. They
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: really do, exactly, But the things exactly these are like
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: and I think, any kind of extreme ideology. But the
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: point is we can learn there is some wisdom almost anywhere, right,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and and the problem comes from excess expression, you know.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: The problem comes from you know, there's there's there. The
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: problem comes you know, when we take things to extremes
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and we get to you know, private ownership of roads.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, anyway, And by the way, if you're an anarchist
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: or a libertarian, I'm kidding, I don't really think you.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Need to get your ass kicked. I'm just joking around.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: But it is have a mob after It's a position.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: That I always feel like could be remedied with psych
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: padelic drugs. It could be I really feel like it
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: almost always could be. Like I get, you know, I
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: just I get where they're coming from. I understand personal responsibility,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: the idea that the free market should decide, get all that.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: But we already accept that there's some things that we
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: agree on that we should all chip in to pay for,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: like roads, or like assessmenties.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, or like assessment of drug purity, for example.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: So they're very rich, could set up a laboratory in
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: their basement so whenever a doctor prescribes a medication, they
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: could see if the drugs are safe and pure. The
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: rest of us pay taxes, and we say, we're all
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: going to pitch in together, and we're going to have
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the FDA and they are going to certify drug purity
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: so that when I go to my pharmacist and buy
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: a drug, the pharmaceutical companies and killing me by shoddy
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: manufacturing practices. So I think that's right. We get together
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: and as a free society and we do these things.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: We want a non corrupt judiciary, right, We don't want
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: people to be able to bribe judge, sure, exactly. Yeah.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: So there are certain foundational elements of our civilization, of
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: our society which are crucial to all well being, and
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: one of them is the capacity to openly debate ideas
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: and to expose ourselves to ideas across the gamut. And
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about political ideas, I'm talking about
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: scientific ideas. Yes, So, how are we going to win
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: the battle against anti vaxxers? Like, how are we going
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: to persuade people who believe that vaccines kill people for
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: which there's no scientific evidence that they're wrong. We could
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: imprison them, like that's force. We could vote, which is
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: sort of what we're doing. We're saying, Okay, well you're
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: a minority group who believes these things, so we're not
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: going to allow you to control policy. Or we could
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: try to win the battle of ideas and persuade them. Ultimately,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: that's the only path that's, in my view, that gets
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: us to where we want to be.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and just an honest assessment of the actual data,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: like what we really know and understanding how these scientists
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: come to these conclusions. But the problem is the echo
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: chambers where people get involved with online that magnify all
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: of these beliefs and you get radicalized. I mean that
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: true people get involved in these Facebook groups, these anti vacs, face,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Facebook groups or you know, all sorts of different things.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I mean that's how these flat earth.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: People get going.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, they start listening only to people that are involved
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: in this circle. They don't have a greater understanding of
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: the science involved.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And did you just see I just online there's a
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: cruise to the flat cruise for a flat Earth, right'
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: know if you saw it to the ice wall? Yeah,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: the ice wall. I thought that's a new wrinkle because
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: the old flat earther is used to think that the
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: water was shown falling off the disc of the Earth,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you know, like the edge of the Earth. It was
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: just a disc. Now the new theory that there's an
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: ice wall, actually it's kind of not falsifiable. That is
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: to say, you could get on a cruise and sail
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: to the edge of the Earth and you would find
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: a wall of ice there. So you Antarctica right, think
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: it's flat. In other words, they have redefined their theory
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: to make it so that you can't disprove it. Right,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: you don't get to an edge. There's no edge. There's
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: an ice wall, is what they're saying now. And are
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you aware of hashtag space is fake? No? I'm not.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I have to say, I not expose myself to that space.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: There's a bunch of people that believe that space is
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: fake and it's not real, but there's no real space,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: and that there's like lights up there. Oh, and that
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: this is some sort of a plan by Satan. It's
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of it's very biblical. That's really interesting. A
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: lot of the flat earth stuff is very biblical. It
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: has to do with the firmament, and they use descriptions
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and depictions from the Bible. Oh yeah, it's super bizarre.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: And what's really bizarre is when you listen to the
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: YouTube videos or these discussions that are done by people
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: that use words that are real, they string them to
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: get other correctly. They have like full sentences, they appear
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: to be articulate. It's very confusing if you're a dummy.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: If you listen to those, you go like, Wow, this
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: guy's making a lot of sense. He's not, but it
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: sounds like he's making a lot of sense because he's
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: using all these words that are correctly used. There's no ums,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: he's saying it articulately. There's like everything seems.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Like like oh makes sense. This man is.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Exposing he's exposing the reality, but it's not. It's just
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: fucking nonsense. And if you don't know any better, and
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: that's all you listen to, that's where your head will go.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: The same with the anti vaxx movement. If you only
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: listen to these anti vaxers, they're making so much sense, like,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: oh my god, it's giving everybody all sorts of ailments.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: You're on the spectrum. And they have a theory of
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: how it does that, which is not It uses, as
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: you say, scientific words, but it's actually not scientifically correct, right,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: you know, it does this, which then does that, which
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: then does that. They lay out a kind of causal
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: chain which is false.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: And then there's a problem of nuance and perspective because
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: there's so many people that get vaccinate. There's hundreds of
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: millions of people in this huntry, billions of people worldwide.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And then there are instances, rare occurrences where people have
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: real issues with vaccinations.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Well, there are some where they have real issues. So
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: for example, there's some vaccines which are known to cause
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: certain neurological conditions, rarely one out of a million or
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: one out of one hundred thousand vaccinations. More commonly is
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the situation in which you have. Vaccination is so common.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Everyone is getting vaccinated, and often that occurs nearer to
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: an occurrence of some other rare condition. Yes, and people
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: associate the two. They think, oh, because of the vaccine,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: this happened. No, it's a coincidence.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Either or yes, there's both. And there's also you know,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: if it's one out of a million, and you have
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: three hundred million, exactly you have three million, you know,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: I mean one million people with an issue is a
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: big deal, right with three hundred million people, Yes, you
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: easily could have three hundred really big cases. Yes, you know,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: three hundred cases where people died from vaccines. And then
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: you bring those in front of people and say, oh
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: my god. And then there's this one, and this one,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: this one, and there's two hundred and ninety eight more,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: and you're like, holy shit, all these people are dying
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: from vaccines. You know, it doesn't feel good if it's
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: your child. But when we look at the greater perspective
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: of humanity and you say, well, listen, you don't want
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: to bring back smallpox. You don't want your child to
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: get measles. Babies can get measles when they can't even
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: be vaccinated.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: For it.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: This is one of the reasons why we need to
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: vaccinate children to make sure they don't get measles. A
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: serious fucking problem and a serious problem that scientists have
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: labored for untold decades to try.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: The triumph of our civilization that we can actually stop
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: these diseases, yes, and save children's lives.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I had a woman yesterday who is an expert, and
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: she's a medical historian and expert in Victorian era surgery,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Lindsay Fitzharris, and she wrote this great book called The
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Butchering Art, and in it there's all these images. One
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: of them she brought up of what smallpox actually looks
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: like when people get it.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: It's horrible. It just covers people's We've eradicated this like
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: scienceful and you die from it. People have. It's actually gone.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: We don't get it anymore in this country. It's anywhere incredible.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I mean it's credible, yes, but that's obviously neither here
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: nor there. So this book blueprint the evolutionary origins of
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: a good society.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: When did you start this? About nine or ten years ago?
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: And I at the time, in my lab we were
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: doing research on friendship. We were doing research on why
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: people have friends. It's actually, it's not difficult to provide
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: an account for why we have sex with each other.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Many animals, most animals are well, I don't know if
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: it's most, but animals either reproduce sexually or asexually. And
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: most animals, I try to remember now what the relative proportions. Anyway,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna say most most animals reproduce sexually. And it's
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: not hard to provide an account for how, for why
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: we why sex originated, why we reproduce sexually. It's not
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: hard to provide an account for why we are choosy
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: in our mates, or why we are careful in who
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: we have sex with. But human beings don't just mate
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: with each other. We befriend each other. We form long term,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: non reproductive unions to other individuals to whom we're not related.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Why that's very rare in the animal kingdom, very few
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: creatures do this. We do it certain other primates, elephants,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: certain whales, and that's mostly it. So the question is why,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: so I became very interested in my lab and trying
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: to understand the deep origins of friendship. Why would natural
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: selection have equipped us with this capacity? And that's at
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: the stage then for in exploring all kinds of other
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: things in our lives, like why we love each other?
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: For example, why do we when we have sex with
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: a person, we tend to become attached to them. We
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: develop emotional sentiment about them that's not essential to having sex,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Yet we do that, And then I became interested in
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: other kinds of good things, like not just love and friendship,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: but cooperation and teaching. Teaching is another crazy thing. We
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: take it for granted that we teach each other, but
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: think about this. Most animals are able to learn. So
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: a little fish in the ocean learns that if it
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: swims to the light, it finds more food there. So
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: the fish then learns to be tropic to move towards
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the light. That's individual learning. Some animals develop what's called
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: social learning. Social learning is really efficient. So if I
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: put my hand in the fire, I learned that I
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: burn myself. I pull my hand out. I've learned something.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: I've paid a price, and i learned something I could observe.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: You putting your hand in the fire, you pay all
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: the price, but I gain most of the knowledge. It's
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: almost as good I learned. Oh, people, you shouldn't put
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: your hand in the fire. I saw that Joe put
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: his hand in the fire. So social learning is super
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: efficient learning from others, but we take it to an
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: even further level. We don't just passively observe other animals
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: of our own species and learn from them. We teach
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: each other. That is very rare in the animal kingdom,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: where one animal sets out to teach another animal something.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: So the book is about the evolutionary origins of a
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: good society. It's also a kind of response, a kind
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: of pushback to a long tradition in the sciences of
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: attention to the bad parts of our nature. You know,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: the scientists, in my view, have for too long been
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: looking at the origins of murder and tribalism and selfishness
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: and mendacity. But I think the bright side has been
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: denied the attention it deserves, because we have also evolved
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: to love and to befriend each other, and to be
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: kind to each other, and to cooperate and to teach
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: each other and all these good things. And I'll shut
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: up and please don't know. And here's the thing, here's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the sort of one way to think about this. This
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: must have been the case that the benefits of a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: connected life outweighed the costs. We would not be living
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: socially if my exposure to you harmed me. On net
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: other words, if I came near you and you were
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: violent to me, you killed me, or you gave me misinformation,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: you told me lies about the world, then my connection
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: to you would ultimately harm me. I should be better
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: off living as an isolated animal. So animals that come
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: together to live socially, the benefits of that must outweigh
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: the costs my living. Us living as a group. So
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: all this attention to the ways in which our interactions
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: are bad, That we kill each other, that we steal
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: from each other, that we lie to each other, that
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: we have tribalism, and all of these traits which we
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: do every century, is replete with horrors. I'm not like
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Pangloss like, I don't think like Pollyanna, like, oh everything's great.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: That's not me. But what is me is a kind
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: of optimistic focus on the good parts of our of
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: human nature, and the recognition that those good parts must
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: in toto overwhelm the bad parts.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Well, they certainly have to. There's so many human beings,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's obvious that this is working.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, well, I mean we.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Have propagated, we're everywhere, on every single patch of land
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: that's occupiable.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: In fact, you're exactly right the argument, and that's discussed
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: in the book. The way we have achieved the kind
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: of social conquest of the earth, the way our species
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: has spread out to occupy every niche, which is also
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: very rare. Most animals live in one you know, grizzlies
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: live in in this part of the world. They don't
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: live in Amazonia. And you know, polar bears live in
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: this part of the world, they don't live in Arizona, etc. So,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: but our species lives everywhere. And the way we have
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: come to be able to do that is by the
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: capacity to have culture, to teach and learn from each other,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: to accumulate knowledge. So in the book, I talk about
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: lots of this famous set of stories called the Lost
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: European Explorer files, about how European explores are lost, They
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: lose their supplies, they wind up dying, but they're in
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: an environment in which other people thrive and survive because
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: they have learned how to live there. So we've spread
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: out around the world. And then there's a chapter in
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: the book at the beginning about shipwrecks. So I have this,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: should I go on, yeah, so I have this. So
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: what I'd like to do is what I try to
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: set out to do in the beginning of the book,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: is I say, look, it's clear that our genes shape
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: the structure and function of our bodies. It is increasingly
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: clear that our genes also straight shape the structure and
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: function of our minds, our behaviors, whether you're a risk averse,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: how intelligent you are, whether you have wander lust. These
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: properties are properties that depend in part on your genes.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: But it's also clear to me, and that's what the
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: book argues, is that our genes shape not just the
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: structure and function of our body, not just the structure
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: and function of our minds, but also the structure and
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: function of our societies. And to really prove that, what
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: we would need is something known as the Forbidden experiment.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: And the Forbidden Experiment is an experiment in which we
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: took a group of babies who had never been taught anything,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: who were acultural, had no culture, and stranded them on
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: an island and left them on their own to see
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: what kind of society they would make when they grew up,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: how would they organize themselves socially? Is there kind of
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: an innate society that human beings are prewired to make
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: in an essence? Now, obviously that's unethical and cruel, but
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: actually monarchs for thousands of years have contemplated this experiment.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: So Herodotus writes it about how one of the ancient
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Egyptian pharaohs wanted to know what kind of language would
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: what was a natural language we had in us that
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: we would speak if we were not taught a language.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So this pharaoh, it is said, took two babies and
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: gave them to a mute shepherd to raise to see
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: how did the children speak when they grew up? And
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Emperor Akbart attempted this, there was a couple of European
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: kings that attempted this. Obviously, we can't actually do this,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: So what I do in the book is I look
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: at a series of other approximations of that, And one
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: chapter is devoted to looking at shipwrecks, groups of men typically,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: but sometimes men and women who Between fifteen hundred and
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: nineteen hundred, there were nine thousand shipwrecks. Many more thousands
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: of ships were lost at sea. And in twenty of
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: those cases, we found twenty cases where at least nineteen
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: people were stranded for at least two months. And you know,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: there's a kind of here's a map of the well,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: here's one crew I can tell you about, but here's
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: a map of the shipwrecks like these are the Oh Wow,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: all over the world where they occurred and when they occurred,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: and how many people there were. And so then I
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: got all the original accounts from the sailors, from the
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: people on the Rex, and all contemporary archaeological excavations of
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: those wrecks where they had been excavated, and try to
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: understand what kind of society did these isolated crews actually
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: wind up making. And there were some amazing stories that
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: we that I found in there.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: So they stayed for at least two months, how many
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: of them actually established a real civilization?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: How many well they stuck forever? No, no one was
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: stuck forever. Most of those crews were eventually. In fact,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: all of those crews had at least one survivor, because
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: if they had all died, then I wouldn't be able
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: to know about them. But there's a one famous case
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: in which these sailors were stranded in near Australia, I
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: think somewhere in the Pacific, and they managed to catch
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: a big petrol, one of those huge birds that you know,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: like a condor, and they put a little note in
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: a little tiny bottle and they tied it to its
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: feet and this petrol flew thousands of miles and landed
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: in Australia and was found with a note indicating where
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the ice stranded sailors were. And the ship was sent
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: to go find the men and it got there, but
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: they had all died. They were all gone. So they
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: used this bird, so they sat the bird. Well, no,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: they didn't eat the bird. They should have no. I
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: think if you had that choice, you would communicate rather
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: than eat. Joe, I think, yes, yes for a little bit.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Well yes, yes, yes. But did they starve to death?
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: We don't know. Nobody knows. But the point is that
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: we have to have. For me to be able to
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: describe what happened, we needed at least one survivor, and
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: often there were many cases where everyone survived. I mean
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: there was one pair of cases that I was amazing
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: to me in eighteen forty six in the South Auckland,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: islands just north of Antarctica, south of New Zealand. The
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Grafton was wrecked on the southern part of the island.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I can't remember how big island was. It's in the
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: book and maybe let's say ninety miles long or something,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: or twenty miles long. I think it's twenty miles long.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: On the southern part of the island, five men are
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: wrecked on the Grafton, and on the northern part of
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: the island the Inverco wrecks. Nineteen men are wrecked on
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: the Inverco. All the graft And crew survives, and both
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: crews were on the island at the same time. They
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: never encountered each other. They're struggling for survival. It's like
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: a like an experiment like who's going to win? Attempted
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: to say fear factor. Yeah, and the question is who's
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: going to survive and how and why. Everyone on the
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: graft And crew survives, and sixteen of the nineteen men
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: on the on the Inverco crew die. There's also cannibalism
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: in that crew, so it's a very it's a very
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: different outcome for various reasons. So anyway, so the point
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: is that in the book. I start with a series
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: of stories about how people come together to attempt to
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: make new civilizations. I use the example of unintentional communities
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: with ship. I looked that at intentional communities like communes
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: and kibbutzes in Israel and nineteen seventies communes in the
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: United States, nineteenth century communes in the United States. Actually,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: going back to Roman times, there have always been groups
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: of people who've said, society's fucked up, I'm gonna go
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: and we're gonna make it again. You know, we're gonna
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: start afresh. I look at settlements in Antarctica of scientists.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I look at the Pitcairn you know, the mutiny on
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: the Bounty. I look at the Shackleton expedition, many many
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: cases of stranded, isolated groups of people trying to make
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: a new social order. And then I also use data
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: from experiments we do in my lab. We have this
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: software where tens of thousands of people have come and
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: played these games. We can create these temporary artificial societies
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: of real people, where people come and spend an hour
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: or two, and we, with this godlike way, can engineer
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the society. We can have a lot of inequality or
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: little inequality or various other features, and then we can
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: observe what happens. And I look at all of that data,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: all those stories, and say, look, there is a deep
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: and fundamental way that no matter what human beings make
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: a society, they're underlying fundamental principles about society, which are
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: as innate as the fact that you have two kidneys.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: You know, most people, almost everyone, or you're pancreas makes insulin.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: But they're very different all throughout the world, right, I
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: mean there's totalitarian society.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: No, So here's the point. No, Yeah, So here's the argument.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: You look around the world, and the example I give
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: is that, yes, there's huge cultural variation around the world,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: just like you said to talitarian societies. There's people have
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: different foods, and they have different ways of dressing, and
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: there's enormous cultural variation, and it's marvelous and interesting and
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: obvious to anybody. But I think we're missing the forest
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: from the trees. To me, this is like you and
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I are sitting on a plane and we look at
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: a hill that's three hundred feet and nine hundred feet
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: and we say, those are very different hills. But actually,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: if we took a step back, we would see that
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: we were on a plateau, and one was a mountain
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: that was ten thousand, three hundred feet and another was
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: a mountain that was ten thousand, nine hundred feet. And
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: actually there are these much more deep and fundamental plate
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: tectonic forces that are creating these two mountains that are
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: very similar, but we are just focused on the superficial
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: top So the argument in the book is that everywhere
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: in the world, people have friendship, people love their partners,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: people cooperate, people teach each other. These are fundamental common
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: principles shared by everyone, even though there's also a lot
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: of variation, even in a place like North Korea. Yes,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: now North Korea, that state. So totalitarian states apply huge
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: cultural pressure to suppress this innate tendency. It's like it's
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: like a religious you need a lot of belief in
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: God to suppress your innate desire to have sex. Right,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: so you can have a belief system that's very powerful
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: that kind of prevents you, squashes what would otherwise be
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: a kind of inescapable inclination. You have, so totalitarian regimes,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: and this is discussed in the book too, they are
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: very threatened by the institution of the family, they're threatened.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: You need to owe your loyalty to the state, not
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: to your family, not to your friends. And so they
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: have a series of institutions that you know, everyone is comrade,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: everyone gets called comrade for example, or or there a
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: lot of a lot of times. Well I want I
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: don't want to, I don't know if I want to
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: speak at the state level. Let me let me take
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: it down a notch to communes. So if you think
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: about communes, if you're going to make a commune of
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: people and you want them to feel real loyalty to
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: the commune, one way you can do that is you
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: want to reduce the commitment and people have to their partners,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: let's say their mates. In order to do that, you
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: can go to one of two extremes. Either you can
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: prohibit sex like the Shakers, and you say, Okay, no
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: one's gonna have sex with anyone because we're all in
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: a commune and we all love each other and we're
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: not gonna have special love for particular people. Or you
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: could go to the other extreme and you can have polyamory.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Say everyone's going to have sex with everyone else. Once again,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: you see that subverts the special relationship that people might
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: form with particular individuals. And so both of those strategies,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: even though they're opposite, are attempting to do the same thing,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: which is to break down real relationships, face to face
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: relationship between individuals, so that you can have a commitment
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: to this higher group. And that's what totalitarian states also
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: face the same dilemma. And that's also why, incidentally, a
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: lot of those states try to reduce gender differences, right
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: They like, you know, the mau jacket, the men and
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: women all were wearing the similar kind of attire, for instance,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: because they want to have people see themselves as interchangeable
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: and not as individuals and relationships not be particular. Did
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: you study cults a little bit? Not a lot. There's some.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: I talk a little bit in the book about cults,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: but I don't really need to get to cults in
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: order to make the arguments that I'm making.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, not even just to make arguments, just
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: to compare, because that is essentially like in particularly the
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Rockniche cult the Oregon the Wild Wild West or Wild
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Wild Country documentary on Netflix.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Did you see that? No, I haven't.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: It's fantastic. They essentially took over an entire town and
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: started busting in homeless people to vote.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Oh I read about that. I know about this.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's really quite amazing. And what they did was
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: really weird, you know. I mean, for there's moments in
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: the documentary you're like, wow, maybe they're onto something, and
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: then of course it goes completely sideways. They wind up
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: poisoning people and chaos. But I am absolutely fascinated by
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: those types of environments where people do decide they're going
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: to branch off from regular they don't they're unsatisfied with
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: regular civilization. They're going to all move to some location.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a that's a primitive, an ancient impulse. Like
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I was saying, people have been doing that for since
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: time immemorial. It's how America got started. Yes, yes, yes,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: screw this, you know, I'm going over there to start again.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: But again and again. When people do that, they keep
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: expressing some of these fundamental beliefs. It's yes, yes, it's
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: like saying yes anyway, go on, no please, no, no, no,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I don't have anything to add. I mean, I just
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: was reinforcing what you said. But yes, that's right.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm always fascinated by people that are unhappy with
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: the current state of affairs. They don't like the way
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: society feels to them, they don't feel like they belong
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: and they want to try somewhere else.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: I mean.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: And what's really interesting to me is the last time
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: someone did this as a country, as far as I know,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: is the United States.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: There really is.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's also very unique that this is one
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: of the weirdest countries in the world in terms of
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: our ability to freely express ourselves and well we have
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: more guns.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Well well, the thing about America that saying is like
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: the American experiment would have, is about the fact that
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: anyone can be an American. My parents immigrated from Greece.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I was raised in this country, you know. I to
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: be an American means to buy into a certain set
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: of principles like the Bill of Rights. And many other
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: countries are very xenophobic. You know, you you can't become
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: a Japanese. It's you can't become you can't be nationalized
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: in Japanan. You can, but it's extremely difficult and rare,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: so it's a very homogenious country. Switzerland is another countries.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: It's very difficult to become Swiss. You can't be nationalized
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: as a Swiss. I mean you can, but it's extremely
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: difficult and rare so. But the United States, you know,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: we we say you are an American if you from
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: all the whole world, You're welcome, bring us. You're tired,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: you're you know the famous saying on the foot on
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: the you're I forgot this saying. It's very poetic on
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: the bottom of the of the Statue of Liberty. You're wretched,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: you're you're forlorn, whatever it is. And you can come
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: to this these shores and make your life a new
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: And all you need to do to be an American
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: is to buy into a commitment to constitutional governance, democratic rule,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Bill of Rights and these principles. Now, we should note
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: that there were millions of people that were brought as
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: slaves involuntarily to these shores. We don't always realize our
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: best virtues. We allow people to come but like the
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Irish and treat them as second class citizens or the
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Italians or the Greeks even you know, we don't always
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: do that. But the idea that you're putting on the table,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: which I think is correct, is that you can be
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: an American. This is a special unusual experiment. You can't
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: reinvent yourself quite that way to my knowledge, in any
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: other colony or country.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: It's why it's one of the weirdest things that this
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: is a country where anti immigrant sentiments are running rampant,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: when the entire foundation in the country is based on immigration. Yes,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: the only way people got here if you're not a
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Native American.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, it was taken from the Native Americans. And everyone
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: since then is an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: that even the Native Americans. Yes, yeah, it's crazy. Yes,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: the whole thing is crazy.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's it's just, and it's such a unique environment
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: for expression. I mean, there's really no other country that
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: has as free expression, even the Brits don't. That's right,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: and Canada certainly doesn't correct. And there are neighbors. Yes,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: it's a it's just it's a very unusual thing. And
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: this unusual thing is the most recent incarnation of a country.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I think that's right, and I think there
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: are you know, then this ties into the whole set
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: of ideas about American exceptionalism. You know, are we how
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: different are we? What is the source of our wealth,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: what is the height of our civilization. You know, I'm
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I'm I am distressed by some of the direction our
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: country is going in at the moment. But I think
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: the you know, I think in the long arc of history,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: I think the United States stands for many of the
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: best principles in the world, and I'm prepared to defend
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: those principles. I am too.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: And I think what you were saying with your libertarian
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: friend and you know, someone who may be an anarchist
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: or whatever, there's room for all these weird opinions. They
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: might not be correct, and they will all be representative
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: as just gigantic soup of human beings. That's three hundred
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: plus million. Yes, it's just the idea that America is
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: like white nationalists in Charlottesville. This is what's wrong with America. Now,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: what's wrong with America is volume. You know, you're going
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: to have certain ridiculous ideas and awful ideas that are
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: amplified in this volume. Is incredible mass of humans.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think a large I think that's right. I
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: think our size contributes to or makes a kind of
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: heterogeneity of ideas more easy. You know, if we were
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: a tiny country, although even in small democracies, you know,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: like you go to European countries that are tiny Spain
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: for example. I mean it's not tiny, but it's tiny
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: compared to us. You know, there's a lot of difference
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: of beliefs from far left to far right. But I
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: think the key aspect, which you're talking about earlier, which
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: again you're highlighting, which I agree with, is that we
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: want an environment in which people can The ground rules
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: are clear, so you know you can't. There's no physical
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: contact allowed, right, So we draw a bright line distinction
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: between words and deeds. So I completely reject the idea
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: that words are violent. Yeah, totally, I totally reject that.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: And because we have different words for it, they're two
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: different things, totally different. We so grounders are you know,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: I can't touch you, but I can speak. Other ground
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: rules are that we are committed to open expression. A
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: good ground rule would be that we grant positive intent.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: We grant good intent. That is to say, I try
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: to put what you're saying in the most favorable light.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: First I think about it. I say, okay, mate, what
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: is he saying? What does he mean by that? He
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: might Now, you may be an idiot, A person may
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: be an idiot. They may be vile, they may be violent,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: they may be wrong. You know, all of those things
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: are also possible, but that's not the first go to.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: So anyway, if we set those ground rules, I think
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: I believe strongly that in the marketplace of ideas, the
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: truth will out and righteousness will out' that's what I think.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in fact, what we need is
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: a benevolent dictator who you know, comes down and tells
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: us all what to think and do. But that's not
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: the world I want to live in. Yeah, the benevolent
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: dictator idea is what does that come from? Like?
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Why is it just because that's really been the only
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: way the society has actually functioned for most of the past.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Well, I think people have always fantasized right every I
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: mean Plato talks about this. I mean, people look around
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: and they think situation is not so great. I really
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: wish it was a strong man that would come down
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: and fix it. And it's very tempting. This is the
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: inclination towards Trump. I think in some part, yes, trump
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Ism is a little bit about this fantasy that we
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: will you know, that the way out is to have
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: a kind of imposition from above and I think that's
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: very dangerous actually, and we were talking about earlier in
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: college campuses. It's the same principle, right, Like the idea
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: that big Daddy is going to come down and tell
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: us what to do and fix the situation, I think
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: is undemocratic in the end, and.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Daddy has to follow the rules of these children want.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is part of the issue with the
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: idea of words equal violence. I mean, this is not
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: a well thought through idea. And this is an idea.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: That is, words can lead to violence. Words can be painful,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: they can hurt your feelings, they can be unpleasant. All
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: of that is true. But words are different than violence.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: They just are. And so I think we need to
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: you know, and in fact, as John Hight and Greg
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Lukianov argue, we actually might want to create there are
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: other reasons to draw the distinction between where and violence
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: and to cultivate an appreciation for that distinction, and that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: is by allowing people to speak, we may actually reduce
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: violence because we can identify who has these crazy ideas.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: We know who. So if you're if I believe that
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: someone hates people like me, and I create an environment
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: in which we allow him to say he hates people
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: like me. I think it's horrible that he hates people
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: like me. I'm not defending that he hates people like me,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: but we might now know who he is right as
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: I stay away from him, you know. So that's their
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: argument that Lukianov and Height make that. Actually, this is
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: a potentially add additional benefit of creating a free and
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: open marketplace of ideas is we identify where the crazy is.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: You know, here all these people we're talking about, the
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: anti vaxxers, I'd like to know who are the people
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: that hold these beliefs. Because as a public health expert,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: and I was a hospice doctor for many years, I
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: took care of patients for a long time. Anyway, I
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: was very am still interested in of our projects around
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: the world, our public health projects. In order to be
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: able to lead people to wisdom, you have to know
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: where is the ignorance. Well, if it's secret, you don't
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: know it. So that's another benefit of fostering this climate
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: of open expression.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the solution to these bad ideas is for
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: someone to come up and give a better idea, Yes,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: someone to debate or to explain what's wrong with it,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: and to do it in a reasonable manner when people
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: start shouting and screaming and pulling fire alarms like it's
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: the idea of silencing people from speaking that somehow know
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: that this is going to help. This is also part
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: of deplatforming. Yes, people call for deep deep platform I
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: think that's wrong, even based on just reasonable people with
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: differing opinions.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: No, it's wrong, it's crazy. There's a Peter Tatchel, there's
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: a gay rights activist in England who you know, went
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: to prison for his rights, was been imprisoned in foreign
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: countries for defending gay rights, and he was deplatformed in
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: England a couple of years ago. No, here's the problem
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: with deplatforming. So first of all, it is totally right
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: and appropriate to protest. So if someone is speaking something
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: you don't want, I will strongly defend protest, stand outside,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: yell and scream, hold banners up, whatever. You can't interfere
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: with the right of the speaker to express themselves. First point.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: But even more important, the reason we don't want that
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: is not so much because we're interested in the right
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: of the speaker. It's because we're interested in the rights
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: of the listeners, the people who are want to listen
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: to that person, have a right to listen to that
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: person in a free society. So when we prevent them
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: the harm we're causing, it's not that I'm silencing you.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I am interfering with the ability of all the people
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: who want to hear you to hear you. It's their
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: rights that matter too. So the deplatforming, it's not about oh,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: so and so was unable to speak at such and
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: such to place. It's the fact that all the people
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: that wanted to hear so and so were deprived of
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: their opportunity to do so. So, I think the answer
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: to words we do not like, the answer to speech
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: we do not like, is more speech. It's not silencing.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's also the obvious situation you put someone
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: in when you do attempt to silence them. You put
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: them under duress and their message changes. You make someone
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: more combative. And yes, this has often been the argument
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: for why Trump became president in the first place, is
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: that people were tired of the argument on the other side.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, I am not a political scientist, and I
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: followed that literature a little bit. I think there is
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: a strong argument that that is one of the factors
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: that contributed to Trump's success. Let's keep in mind, however,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: that the majority of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton, and
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: the majority of Americans didn't vote correct, but all the
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: people who voted, Yes, that's another whole problem. But sixty
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: three or so mill anyway, about three million more people
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: voted for Hillary Clinton than voted for for Donald Trump nationally.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: So so I forgot how we got onto him. What
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: were you saying?
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: We were talking about people wanting to silence people the
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: one political correctness and the rebounding of that is the
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: reinforcing of someone who comes along with Trump, who's the
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: polar opposite of that.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, I would agree with that, and I think that
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: that's another you know, that sort of is a variant
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: of the argument we were discussing earlier, which is that
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: you one of the advantages of creating a free and
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: open society is that you allow you know, live and
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: let live, and then you don't you tend to you
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: avoid creating kind of suppressed animosities, or you can help
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: to avoid it.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just open communication is so critical, and
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: it's also critical to have reasonable polite conversation, like people
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: can oppose each other in their idea, but you should
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: be able to express how and why you oppose that
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: I need, yeah, without it being this sort of personal Yes, Vendetta, Yes,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: I agree with that.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I think we have to accept
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: that there will be people will get angry. I mean,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: that's part of having an open society, and I think
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: we need to be at a person. Yes, and I
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: think we need to accept that some people, not everyone,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: will will engage in discourse the way you and I
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: might want to engage in that discourse. But I do
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: agree with you completely that ideally we would have a
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: kind of civilized conversation that allowed us to learn and
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: to grow. And I think ultimately that's as we've been saying,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: is better for our society as well well.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: I think we should acknowledge that people are going to
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: be upset, but we should also applaud people for not
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: being upset. I think there's a there's a higher value
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: to people being able to communicate reasonably. Yes, I don't
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: think that that's reinforced enough and I don't think that's
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: appreciated enough.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: I don't even want to get any disagreement from me
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: on that.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, I mean I just think we this is
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: something that we can do, yes, and we can get
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: better at it.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's like martial arts training, you know.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: I think that it is self discipline is not an
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: easy thing, Joe, And like anything else worth doing in life,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: like basically anything worth doing, takes effort. It's tempting, the
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: go to strategy that many people have. So I think
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: it's important to note that free speech is difficult and
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: it's not an easy thing. It's a natural inclination to
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: want to silence your opponents, but it's wrong and it's harmful,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: and it's actually harmful to you to do that. So
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: I think we need to have an educational system that
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: cultivates cultivates that, that cultivates the capacity to tolerate an
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: idea that you don't like, to think about that idea,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: and then to respond to that idea. So I guess
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying is it does require some training. It
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: doesn't come naturally unfortunately, you know.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: But it should be reinforced. Yes, And I think there's
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: a way to do that, and there's a way to
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: appreciate that, there's a way to call that out when
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: you see it, and just I think the world needs
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: more of it, and if we can figure out a
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: way to do that, we will find that we our
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: differences are not nearly as egregious, they're not nearly as
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: disgusting as well like to think that.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly what I argue at Blueprint, that there's
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: such you know, like you know, when you go to
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: a foreign country, initially you're overwhelmed by the different food
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: and the different smells and the different architecture. And anyone
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: who's traveled even to a different state has had this experience.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: And yet actually, once you get to know the people,
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: you see that they're very human. They're like us. They
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: love their partners, and they hang out with their friends,
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: and they work together to build a civilization in a society,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: and they have schools and they teach and they learn
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: and they do all of these basic things that are
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: a fundamental part of our common humanity. And this is
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: what I talk about in Blueprint at length. You know,
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: like I I you know, I just I think it's
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: I think there's a kind of there's a kind of
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: flawed beauty to the world that captivates me. And it's
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: a little bit on the there's this syesthetic tradition in
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: in Japan and a philosophy called wabi sabi. Do you
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: know what wabi sabi is? No, you probably know about it,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: but you may not. Another word, so I've heard it. Yeah,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: do you know? Like how like the Western esthetic for
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: pottery is like these perfectly symmetrical, beautifully glazed, you know pots.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: But there's a tradition in Japan of slightly imperfect pots,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: you know, like a cracked pot or a pot that's
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: slightly misshapen. It's very difficult the masters to make these pots.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: And it's it's it's called wabi sabi, and it's about
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: it's about how imperfections a kind of beauty of imperfection,
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: a kind of flawed beauty, like a hot girl with
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: a gap in her teeth. Yes, I suppose I've Yes,
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I suppose that could be an example of that. Or
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: you know El Macpherson, you know, famously had that little
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: uh was it her? I forgot? Which was the famous
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: model that had Sidney Crawford. Yeah, had that face miss
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: mole on her face exactly. So it's a flawed beauty.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: So so here's the point. It's not hard to look
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: around the world and see the violence and the murder
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: and the warfare and the incompetent leadership and all of
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: these awful things about our species. But we're really a
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: fucking unbelievable species actually, who do amazing things when you
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: compare us to other species, And there's a kind of
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: flawed beauty to us. And I think that it's wrong
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: to be seduced to the dark side. You know, it's
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: wrong to like only focus on the on the beast stuff.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: I also think it's a kind of moral and philosophical laziness, right,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: if we allow ourselves to just think that, oh, the
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: you know, people are awful, it kind of relieves us
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: of any duty to be good and to work to
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: make the world better. It's a kind of, you know,
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: surrender to the dark side. I think that's wrong, and
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: in the book shows exactly how and why that's wrong,
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: and how natural selection has shaped all these wonderful qualities
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: which are shared the world over. So you go to
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: the foreign country, you're initially perplexed by their crazy practices,
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: and then slowly but surely you find our common humanity.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: And anyway, I find that it's pleasing, at least to me,
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: that perspective, you know.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: That's one of the cool things about travel, right, you
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: broaden your perspective and your understanding of what it means
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: to be a person. You go to these different environments
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: and yourself too. You yeah, they're different, they're different foods,
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: they're different art, and they're different architecture. And you go, oh,
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: this is also possible too.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, people can live like this, yes, And do you
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: even begin to see why they live like that? You know,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: like you, initially you go to Greece and you have
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: resin flavored wine, you have it Ratzina, and you're wondering,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: why would these crazy Greeks put pine resin in their
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: ruining perfectly good white wine. And then after a while
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: you start to say, hey, actually this is pretty good.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: You know, this is not a crazy thing after all.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: And yes, you know, the first time, the first time
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: I had Scotch whiskey, I I didn't know what I
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: thought about it, And now I love whiskey. Right, It's
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: an acquired taste. So the first time you drink something
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: like that, you think, you know, yes, they put resin,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: they put pine resin in their white wine. They chill it.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: I should have brought you some. Maybe I'll send you
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: an acquired taste. It's not uzzo kool aid. It's delicious
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: from the beginning. Yeah, right out, it's cold, yes's sweet, yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: we'll have to convince anybody. Yes, that's right, that's right,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: somethings that's right. Some things are just good. Right out
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: of the buck is good. Yes, kool aid is just good. Yeah.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: I mean I don't recommend you drink it all the time.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: It's full of sugar. It's terrible for you. But damn
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: that stuff. It's like it's like it's like fried foods,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, sure, yummy.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: A lot of them. Yeah, French fries. Yes, I mean,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: come on, man, salt and ketchup.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: You don't like that? How could you not like that? No,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm not sure about what I should mention. But anyway,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: I love pop ups fried chicken. I do as well.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: I love it so bad, it's awful. And my wife,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: my wife is unlikely to listen to this podcast, or
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: I'll skip over this part so she doesn't hear this part.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: But and my sister will be listening probably, and so
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: she will laugh when she gets to this part. Because
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: whenever I see pop Eyes, I just pull over and
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: indulge myself and then I terrible, terrible. Top eyes is good.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: But you know what, if you really want to indulge
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: and you like chicken.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Rosco's, you're an a lamb. You don't know Roscoes chicken
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: and waffles. Dude. I tried to go. Family would try.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Don't you make that thing? I try to go the
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: the other day with my family Sunday. It was an
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: hour and a half.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Wait on the same plate, Sunday chicken course on the
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: same plate. What are you a communist?
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: Man, it's it's a la hell yeah and butter yeah
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: on there, Yes, perfectly.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: This is a damn delicious from another planet. I make
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: maple syrup. I live in Vermont and I make maple syrup.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I tap my own trees. And what a freak?
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: I have a I have a yeahat you're giving people
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: a hard time for waffles and chicken again.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: The colonel has it now.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: The colonel is a liar. He does not have it.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: Get out of here. That's not even the colonel. The
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: colonel's Norm McDonald's. I saw him. There's one colonel. It's
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: Norman Donald's.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: Very like promotion or something.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: This is nonsense, but they do, and the syrup goes
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: on top of the chicken. Yeah, and we.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Said that chicken and that waffles and chicken taste like
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: cat litter compared to.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: Rosco's also sweet chick la. He could try to.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: Get this out of here, so odd stuff can go
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: funk off Rosco's chicken and waffles. And you get the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: greens too, the collar greens. Like that's fine, damn good.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: That's fine, But that's a waste of maple syrup. Take
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: it from a man who makes it to put it.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Sweet chicken is good. I'm sure sweet. It's NAS's place.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I get it. I love it. I've been there. It's great.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: Roscos Okay, fuck off. There's the reason why there's an
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: hour and a half weaight on a Sunday, how long
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: in town for just to day. Maybe I'll be back,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: I'll be we go over there right after the show.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'll go there for one on Gowerts. Okay, oh man,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: it's good, all right, Maybe I'll try that. It's so good.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: And it's also one of those places been there forever.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: We used to get it.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: I found out about it from nineteen nineteen ninety four
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: when I was doing news radio ninety five. Ish, I
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: guess have you.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: Been in LA since you left the Massachusetts No.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: I went to New York for a couple of years,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: and then I moved out here. I moved out here
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: in ninety four.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, I've been here a long time. Yeah.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: And when I was on news radio, they got it
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: for like you could order lunch, and someone ordered Roscoe.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: Became addicted, and I was like, what is this like waffles?
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: And it was just like you waffles and chicken. There.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: It looks that's that's that's doesn't look as good as
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: it looks when you're there. When you're there and you
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: smell it, it's damn good. I'm doing a Roscoe's commercial here.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: That's an incredible fan That's an incredible combination of items.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: It's just so good. It's so good.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: And afterwards you better have nothing to do, man, because
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: you going into a food Koma son.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Anyway, how do we get to that? I don't know.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Syrup stories, yeah, going to yeah, different country, different countries
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: and opening your mind. So you yeah, so you are
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: counteracting my resin flavored white wine with the maple syrup
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: syrup chicken.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm a I'm a giant fan of spicy food.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: I love spicy food, so I really really enjoyed Thailand.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: I really enjoyed their style of cooking and their kind
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: of food.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: And it's just are you one of those people who
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: eats those the schoolfield units on the on the hot peppers,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: like you know, like how hot? You know?
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: No, I just like spice. It's not hot. I like
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: ham and arrow. I like I like things pretty spicy
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: compared to the average person. But I have friends that
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: put me to shame. Yeah, Like I have a buddy
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: of mine from that I used to do Fear Factor
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: with my friend Tommy Hirschow. Shout out to Tommy and
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: we I used to eat. I ate chili with him.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: I couldn't keep it how hard he can go. I'm like,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: this is crazy. Yes, I think people just have a
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: different inherent like it's almost like built into their bodies.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: It's both, I think, Yeah, it's both. Some people are
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: better able to like some are faster runners than others. Yeah,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: but it's also training, so you get to you eat
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: a lot, you slowly work your way up to being
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: able to tolerate and like those really super hot peppers.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: I find it a very unpleasant. I have a friend
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: just like you who really is into it, like really
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: seeks out the hotness. Yeah. I also think it's a
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: little bit like addiction, like you tolerate, like like as
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: you get used to like the less hot stuff, now
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: you need more and more stuff in order to get
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: the same. It's not a high exactly. Some people think
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: it's a high, by the way, but there's a little
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: high to it. Some people say that. I mean, I again,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: it's not for me.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: I cook meat with halapenos, I slice it up and
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: I'll have like a piece of the meat with the
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: halapenos together, especially elk with halopenos, and it's sensational.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, I think it's so good.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, but I'm my kids always make fun of
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: me because I'm bald, so my whole head is covered
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: with sweat and they come over and wipe my head.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: You're like, look at you, You're so gross. And then
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: how old are your kids? The youngest ones are eight
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: and ten, and you have you have how many three?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: I have three, all daughters, all daughters, two year old,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: a ten year old, and an eight year You'll live
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: longer with daughters if you If you plot dad's survival
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: on the Y axis and fraction of female children on
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: the X axis. Survival is slightly longer for men who
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: have higher fraction of daughters.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: I think it's because boys drive you to your fucking grave,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: because are so goddamn crazy.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: There's lots of theories as to why it happens, but
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: I think and that is in fact one of them.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: It's framed a bit more scientifically. Well, that's the basic theory.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: My ten year old is a maniac. My ten year
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: old daughters, and I just imagine if she was a boy,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: I'd be terrified that she knows just lighting things on fires,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: blowing up buildings.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, boys are a problem. It can be. I mean,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think, you know, I think
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: it's I think the well, I mean, we could get
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: onto the whole gender issue. I'm not sure we want to,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: but I think boys are responsible. Let's talk about chimpanzees.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: It's easier. Imps do most of the violence. About ninety
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: five percent of the violence and murders are committed by
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: male chimpanzees, and most of the victims are males. And
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: you know, I think it's there's no doubt that biology
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: plays a very important role in male proclivity to violence.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: For example, Sure, so there are trouble Yeah, so boys
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: can be a problem that way. And I think that
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: many ways in which society are cultural traits that we invent.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: Their purpose is to shape and guide those tendencies to violence,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: to kind of mitigate them. But we don't just need
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: again going back to the book, serbs or we don't
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: just need We don't just use culture for that purpose.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: There there's an argument in the book that we humans
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: have have domesticated ourselves. So if you look at if
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: you compare dogs to wolves, and domesticated cats to wild
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: cats from which they descended, or a guinea pigs to
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: the wild guinea pigs from which they descended, or or
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: horses to the wild horses to which they said. If
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: you again and again you compare these couplets these pears,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: you find that the domesticated version of these animals that
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: are much more placid, much more peaceful. They also tend
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: to have floppy ears. They have piebald fur. So guinea
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: pigs and dogs and cows all have splotchy, black, white,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: and brown fur. Why is that the animals from which
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: they evolved didn't have those the kind of splotchiness. So
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: and they become much more peaceful if you compare human beings,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: but they had those animals were domesticated by humans, like
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: I deliberately allowed the reproduction of this member of the
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: litter and not that member because this member was nicer.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: And so across time we evolve a more a domesticated
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: version of the ancestral species. So we get you know,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: we get my miniature docs and from a wolf like
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: the like the kind of things that were photographed out
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: in your studio year crazy transition. Now, if you look
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: at humans and you compare us to the non to
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: our ancestors or to other primates for all the world,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: it looks like we have been domesticated. We are more
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: peaceful and placid. We have sex outside non reproductive sex.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: This is another thing. So these domesticated animals will have
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: sex even when it's not time to reproduce. We we
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: our tails, we don't have tails anymore, but our tails
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: have get shortened. There are all these features that we have,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: these these behavioral qualities, and these physical properties that we
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: have are are We get a feminization of our faces.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: Our jaws become smaller, like if you look at you
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: compare these domesticated animals to their non domesticated ancestors. The
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: domesticated versions are less violent, so we lose a lot
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: of the traits that physical and psychological traits associated with violence.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: But there was no one that domesticated us. So the
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: theory is, the question is how how did that happen?
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: And one of the theories that's discussed in blueprint, and
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: that's advanced by other scientists this is not my work,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: is that we self domesticated, and that what happened over
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: the sense, over the millennia, over millions of years, is
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: that weaker individuals into our groups. When one individual became
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: too autocratic and too violent and too powerful, they banded
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: together and killed that guy. And so over time we
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: were killing the more violent members of our species, weeding
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: out those people, and therefore the gene pool changed across time,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: and we self domesticated. We are more peaceful today than
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: we would have been because we domesticated ourselves. And this
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: is one of the arguments that's also made to help
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: explain the origins of goodness actually.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: And the origins of cooperation, because it would take a
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: few good people to kill the bad person that's running
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: everything that's evil. Correct, that's exactly right. Recreational sex does
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: occur in bonobos, which is really weird, isn't it, because
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: they're so similar to regular chimps.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, but they're not the same species. They also have
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: homosexual sex. They use sex to make up, you know,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: So it's yeah, they're very licentious species. That's exactly right.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: And and and and bonobos are felt to be a
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: self domesticated chimpanzee, so there's similar So bonobos are to
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: chimps as as let's say dogs are to wolves. And
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: but there was the dogs we domesticated. The bonobo's self domesticated.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Is the theory? Do they know why or how well?
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: The theory is that they did it, like we were saying,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: by weeding out killing the more of aggressive members there was.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: What we know must have happened is that the nicer
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: guys must have been able to have more offspring. So
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: the gene pool changed over time because of the differential
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: success of the of the of the nicer guys. Now
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: people have looked at this even in human societies. They've looked,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: for instance, there's a study at talk about in the
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: book of Different Pathways to reproductive success amongst the Tsimani,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: which is a group in Amazonia, and other societies are similar.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: So you can either be like big and strong, or
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: you can be charismatic and have useful knowledge, and both
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: ways you have more children. So there are these competing
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: ways in our species of enhancing your reproductive fitness.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Are you aware of Sepalski's work with baboons. That's a
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: fascinating case, right, because they were studying baboons in Africa.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: They would eat from human garbage, and a bunch of
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: them got sick and died. And it turns out that
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: the most violent and ruthless of them got sick and died,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: and it changed the entire culture of the baboon tribe.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know that story.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting sitting one. They started grooming each other
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: and being kind to each other.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, that's a good example. But there
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: was an accidental It was an accident.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: An accident, but it lasted for generations. Yes, And when
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: he returned to study them, he found that they were
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: still this different kind of a little bit. Yeah, I'm
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: doing a shitty job. I'm sure of explaining it, but
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: I'm I think so fascinating.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, he's very impressive. And I know that I'm
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: now that you're reminding me. I'm a little familiar with
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: that particular study. I didn't know that it started with
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: garbage however. That but it was a coincidental extermination of
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: the more violent members of the troupe. Yes, yeah, so
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: they were removed from the gene pool and it changed
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: the entire culture to the point where generations later they
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: were still using this more peaceful, wasteful yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: more kind. Well, it didn't just change the culture. It
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: may have changed the culture, but it appears we're arguing
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: that to have changed the gene pool like an evolutionary
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: pressure that's been applied. So you have, you know, big
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: dogs and small dogs. You don't allow the big ones
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: to reproduce, you just reproduce the small ones. You get
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: small dogs in the end.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I've had dogs my whole life, and one of
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: the things that you do. I right now have a
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: Golden retriever. We have a yeah, we have a white lab. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: yellow lab. And I've had a bunch of different dogs.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: I've had mastiffs and pit bulls and German shepherds.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: No small we have a docs in too. You don't
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: have a small dog. My oldest daughter has a tiny Chihuahua.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: He's the best. They just bark all the time.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: No, he doesn't bark that much. He barks a little bit,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: but he's really smart. He's actually a mutt. He's Chihuahua
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: and Australian Shepherd. But he's like that big. He's tiny
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: little thing. He's the best. But my point being is
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: that you can see if you get a dog from
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: a breeder, you really can see how they can cultivate
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: certain types of behavior. Like a good example of my
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: mastiff who passed away this year. He came from this
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: guy who bred dogs for films and for police training,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: and he was the most calm, most chilled out dog
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: I've ever had in my life. He was a giant dog,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: hundred and forty pounds, but you could have him, take
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: him anywhere and trust him with a baby, and he
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: was like hello, Like everything was like totally he But
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: this guy purposely anytime a dog showed any aggression towards
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: people or any aggression towards dogs, he wouldn't let him breathe.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: So how can anyone hear the stories like that or
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: no stories like that and not then also think that
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: genes play a role in human behavior. Oh, they you
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: have children, Yes, you realize it. When you have children.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: You see it like, Okay, this is not I didn't
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: do this, this is this comes from me. Yes, there's
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: certain traits that my children have that I watch and
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: I go, okay, this is not.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: This didn't teach them. They just stay they were born.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: They've got my fucked up brain. You know there's something
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: in there like they're not seeing the like they don't
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: see how crazy I am in terms of like how
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: hard I work in things, they how obsessive I get
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: with things. They're just doing it. It's very weird. It's
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: very weird because you see it go oh well, okay, well,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: how much of this ship that's in me is how
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: much of me is me to deciding to be this
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: person and how much of me has no choice? About
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: half and half, I would say, overall, on average, across traits.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: How much do you think gets passed down through genetics
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: in terms of inclinations like the distrusitions?
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, about half on average, So for example, about half
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: the very you know how religious you are or how
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: risk averse you are, like I can. I can about
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: half the variation and how if you look at a
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: group of people and some are more risk averse than others,
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: about about half of that has to do with their
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: genes and half has to do with how they were
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: raised or what environments they grew up in. So you know,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: there's a kind of innateness to many of our qualities,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: and you can shape them, you know. For example, you can't.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: You couldn't make me a musician. Unfortunately, I have almost
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: no musical talent. I can dance, I think, I mean,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: I think others would even say that I can do that,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: but it's not just like I think I can dance,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: but I can't. But I have no musical ability whatsoever.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: I would say I'm tone deaf. And you know I
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: can appreciate music like I, but I can't produce it.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: There's no way you could train me. I don't think
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: to be a musician. But so some of it is
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: inborn and some of it is taught. For all of
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: these qualities, Yes.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: It's a fascinating thing to watch it emerge from a child,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: isn't it.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, As a parent, you see where it comes from.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: Although we have adopted, like my mother had three biological children,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: and I have two adopted siblings. I come from actually
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: a multiracial family. I have a Black sister and a
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: Chinese brother. And my mother was an incredible human being.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: She died when I was twenty five. She was forty seven.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: And we have been foster parents, my wife and I
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: and so, and we have lots of adopted kids in
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: the extended family in addition to biological kids. And so
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: you can see, you can see the play of genes.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: You can see the extent to which the kind of
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: the inherited traits that these people we all have, and
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: you see the shaping by how you're raised, and you know,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: so both are important. And this is incidentally why if
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: you ever have anyone, it's not nature or nurture, it's both,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: always almost in every single trait.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: Actually, well that's the case with so many things in
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: this life. We want everything to be binary.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's nuts. It's a total we were talking earlier.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: It's a total loss of nuance and an inability to
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: see any gray. And some people think, and I think
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: that's what you were talking about. Some people think that
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: we are hardwired to like dichotomies, to see you know,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: male and female, and up and down, and good and
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: evil and left and right, and to simplify the world
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: by finding out and that we like it. That it's
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: soothing to us to think that the world can be
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: divided into two categories. But in fact, many times not
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: always like up and down is sort of clear, but
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: many times it can't. There's shades of gray, and it's harder,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: that's harder to live in the gray.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, I completely agree, and that's why I've always been
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: a poe. I mean, I think it's incredibly foolish to
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: deny that. But people find comfort in denying. Yes, they
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: find comfort in mean tribal Yes, they find.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: Comfort in them. Yeah, us versus them is the classics. Yes, yes, yes,
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a simplified view of the world,
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: and it's it's foolish and dangerous. Actually. Now, sometimes you're
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: at war with an enemy, you know, it's me or
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: him and uh or us or them. There are circumstances
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: in which it's a different survival. Yes, in that mode, yes,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: I get it. But but you know, but I think
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: the kind of worldview which says we are good, they
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: are evil, as that we've been saying in different kind
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: of ways in different parts of our conversation, is I
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: think foolish and wrong and ultimately self injurious. Actually, yeah,
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: so we used to have. You know, you've done martial arts.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: I spend years training in shotokan karate, very traditional Japanese style,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: which I loved. I'm sure you've had the same thing.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: You actually are grateful to your opponent. You bow to
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: your opponent, you say thank you to your opponent. Right,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: the opponent is necessary for you to learn. Oh yeah,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: I mean this is the whole point, not.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: Just your opponent training partners. Of course, you want people
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: to be able to beat you.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you get better, that's exactly right. So so
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: this is you know, I think that the kind of
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: that aspect of that kind of training is a life
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: lesson as well. Right, the capacity to see that And
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: the same happens with ideas. How do my ideas get better?
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: How do I discover in my laboratory new knowledge? I
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: discover it against opposition? Right, someone says you're wrong about that,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: it's not true, and I'm like, oh yeah, let me
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: prove it to you. Here's what I'm going to go
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: back and do more experiments and come back to you
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: with more arguments and more data and show you that
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: actually I'm right about this or not. You go back
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: to your lab and you're like, oh shit, they were right.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: You know we were wrong. So that's the way you
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: uncover truth, right, It's the way you get to more perfection.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: It's the kind of ying and yang. Actually, so, yes,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: I think that I think that this this this simplification
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: of the world to think of you know, I'm good
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: and your evil is really misunderstands that in many not all,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: but in many circumstances and misunderstands what's happening.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: And it also it brings back this problem that human
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: beings have always had with ego and this need to
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: be right, and that identifying yourself in each individual discussion
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: and debate and battle and needing to triumph. And even
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: though you desire to be correct, you have to understand
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: when you are not, and you have to appreciate someone
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: who shows you that you are incorrect because they are
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: allowing you to grow. You're not a finished product. There's
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: no way you can be.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: Yes. I think that's why I like arguing with people
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: I disagree with, because that's when I learn more stuff. Right,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: If I talk to people I agree with, I don't
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: learn as much. So you get together with that Private
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: Roads dude, that dude and some of other dudes. All
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: that is. I just came from his house and h
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: he also he's crazy. But anyway, he'll laugh. He will
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: listen to this and he'll be laughing right now, does
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: living Yeah, he's a finer, No fucking way. Yes, goddamn,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: that's cliche. Yes, exactly, that's hilarious. Is hilarious. So it
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: is hilarious anyway, pro gun mercenary. Yeah, exactly, that's surprise.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: I saw that coming. That's really funny. The what was
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: the hold on? I was gonna say something to you
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: about you arguing with people you disagree with. Hold On,
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: I lost the train. I thought I had said before
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: we talked about my friend. Uh, you learn from them anyway,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: I lost the train there, but no worries.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I mean that's that's another issue that
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: I've faced with this podcast, where people get upset at
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: me for having people on that have opinions that.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: They disagree with. That's nuts.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they think that you you're you're doing a disservice
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: by providing a planlatform that it's not that that's phrase
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: they keep saying platform, giving them a platform.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: No, I think you have power, which you should use wisely.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: I have power I should use that. We all have
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: some power in some parts of our lives, and I
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: think it is okay to say you have some power.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: You do. You know, you have lots of millions of listeners,
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: People respect you, lots of people are by the president's CEOs.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: The people are power. But the idea that by talking
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: to someone you are somehow abusing that power, that's that's
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: crazy to mean. In fact, quite the opposite. I think
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: that you are shining bright light of day onto ideas.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: Let people discuss them.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: Let's let's it's also quite schizophrenic this, I mean, have
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: you ever seen when a schizophrenic person draws these connections
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: where they have one person and that person met this
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: other person, and that person used to work with this
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: other person and that person met Hitler. So you know Hitler, Yes,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: you know you've ever seen those? Yes, that's it's really
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: similar in the same sort of a way. Yes, it's
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: just we you're sort of a thing where you're not
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: allowed to even communicate or be in contact with someone
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: who is in this apposent and it's it's very childlike. Yes,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: this perspective, and it's very binary. Friend, if you're Susie's.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: Friend, Yes, it's so stupid. Yes, I would agree with that.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: And it's a it's a really common thing today that
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: you you're seeing people are trying to reinforce this idea
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: and push it on other folks.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I think one thing, you know, like I think,
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: I think that, like we were talking about, I think
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: that exposing ourselves to a breadth of ideas to people
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: we disagree with. I you know, I think, and and
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: creating an environment in which people can express themselves. You know,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: it's good. You're not going to get any arguments from
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: me against on that point.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: No, And I just think it's better for everybody, Like
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: we were talking about before, when you meet someone who
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: can give you a lesson and express something in a
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: way that makes you reconsider your own ideas you hold sacred.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll give you an example. When I met
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: my wife thirty years ago, I wasn't pro death penalty,
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: but I would say I would say neutral to the
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: death penalty. I would be, like, you know, Ted Bundy,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: the state can put him to death. And I had
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: all the kind of conventional reasons, or I didn't really care.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: He's a vile person. He killed all these people, he
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: tortured them. If the families will get any relief, whatever,
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: that's fine. I had some concerns because I was a
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: statistician about conviction of the innocent, and I support the
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: Innocence Project, and I am very concerned with police brutality.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: I have for years been advocating the racializing the police
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: brutality is vile and abhorrent and must be firmly resisted.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: I think that I think the prosecutorial misconduct, the way
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: people are Prosecutors lie and put people in prison. You know,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: there have been many, many cases of people on death
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: row who are innocent. That should offend our conscience. So
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: even back then I had some concerns about the death
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: penalty because I recognize that, you know, we can't be perfect.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: We're going to convict some innocent people and also let
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: some guilty people go free. That's not as bad as
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: killing the putting to death the innocent, but they're both bad.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: So I had that concern about the death penalty. But
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: otherwise I was like, it's Okay, my opinions have totally changed.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: I'm completely opposed to the death penalty now for many reasons,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: not just the statistical reason, but also I think it's immoral.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: I don't think the state should put it down. I
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: think we can deprive you of liberty. I think we
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: can make sure you're not a threat to society. We
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: can block you up for the rest of your life.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: But I think the states should not be taking people's
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: lives in that way.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: There's something extraordinarily strange about locking someone up. It's very strange.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: Well, we have a car serial state. I mean, you know,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: we lock up a higher We have our fraction of
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: people incarcerated I think is the same as Stalinist Russia.
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: And we have very long prison sentences, which nuts you
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: don't need them for deterrence, especially for non violent drugs,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: especially for all non violent offenses. Should have much shorter,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't We should have more, We should have higher certainty
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: of punishment. A higher fraction of people who have actually
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: committed crime should be punished, but I think we should.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: We could cut in half or less the duration of
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: the senses. I think you'll be able to deter criminals
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: from doing things with a three month sentence if they
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: are very confident that they will be convicted if they're caught,
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: whereas now we have a system where most are not convicted,
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: like this Jesse Smollett thing, which is just ridiculous in
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: the news and which therefore so and only a tiny
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: fraction are convicted, but they're given huge lung sentences. It's
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: like they're paying the sentence for everyone that didn't. It
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense, and it's expensive. It ties up
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: our prison system. Actually, can I go to tell you
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: another story. So it's a situation a few years ago
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: when there's a very famous director and writer by the
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: name of David Simon, who I consider friend. He did
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: The Wire. He was a showrunner for a bunch of
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: other very famous, wonderful TV programs. He started his career
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: actually as a reporter in Baltimore. He was a beat
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: reporter and then went on to become a writer, did
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: The Wire and so forth. And he told the story
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: actually at Yale to students about how he had just
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: come back from a summit President Obama was still president,
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: where he was trying to help the students to see
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: that you could find common ground with your political opponents
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: and that you need to listen to them and talk
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: to them in order to find that ground. And so
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: he told the following story. He said, I just came
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: back from Camp David, where there was a meeting about
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: how to reduce incarceration in our society. And he said,
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: the Koch brothers were there, and the students all hissed,
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: and Nude Gingrish was there and the students all hissed,
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: and a bunch of liberal people were there, and the
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: students were really happy about that. And then they said, well,
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: why did you go? How could you associate yourself with
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: those evil people? And he said, look, he said, the
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: conservatives want to reduce incarceration because it's expensive, the liberals
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: want to reduce incarceration because it's unjust. And the libertarians
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: want to reduce incarceration because the states shouldn't be depriving
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: people of liberty. And I can find common ground with
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: these people and reduce incarceration. Why would I not talk
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: to them? And the students didn't seem to understand that.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: They were like, they couldn't get it. That's why they
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to vote. Yeah thirty, Yeah there should
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: be five, I mean and so I don't know how
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: we got onto this. You know, like talking to you
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: is so much fun because it's like we're all over
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: the place, But how did I get come up with this? Example?
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: We were talking about talking to political enemies, was it
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: or something else?
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, we're talking about people telling you that you shouldn't
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: associate with people that have varying in pain.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And you know, oh, I know, we were
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: talking about incarceration and prison senses and so forth. So
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: we have a horrible problem in our society with incarceration.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: A larger fraction of our pop la is incarcerated. We
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: deprive after you've paid your debt to society. We often
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: have these these we deprive you of your right to vote,
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: which I think is wrong. You've paid your debt to society.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: You should be able to re enter society. That's the proxis. Yes, exactly, community,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: Yes exactly. You were in prison for ten years. That's enough,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: you know now you we want you to feel a
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: part of society and we want to welcome you back
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: if we have that vision of justice. Well, how about
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: the registered sex offender. That's a serious problem, especially for crimes.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: You know, these crazy cases which offend my conscience.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: I know a guy who got charged as a registered
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: sex offender because he urinated outside. Yeah, that's not caught
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: in the South urinating outside.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: That's nuts, that's just prosecutorial abuse. Or you know, you
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: have these Romeo and Juliet laws which are not in
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: every state. Now think they alas they are not in
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: every state. You know, you have a sixteen year old
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: boy and a fourteen year old girl. There have to
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: be exceptions for that kind of sexual practice. You know,
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: they're exchanging sexually explicit images. They should not be considered
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: sex offenders for the rest of their lives. That's nuts.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: So so yes, so all of those things. But the
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: problem is not only to we have a huge fraction
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: of people in prison. We have extremely long prison senses
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: compared to any many European countries for the same crime.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: And it's costly, it's unjust, it's ineffective. I think we
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: should change the policies on this, and maybe we will.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: There's also the idea of reforming them. It's they're not
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: using all the tools within their disposal. They're not really
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: doing a good attempt at it, and I just don't
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: think it does anything other than make their life hell
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: for a short period of time, which we're hoping, we
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: hope deters.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: Them from doing future crime. Well, they're different. There's the justice,
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: there's deterrence, there's safety, right Like, so violent criminals that
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: we put in jail, we need to do that. I mean,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not interested in being killed by somebody who you
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: know could have killed someone else. She should have busy
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: in jail for a while. Twenty years some amount of
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: time people are yeah for murder. I think twenty years
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: is enough. Well European, So European standards are about twenty
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: years actually, and they're different. Things like if you want
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: to deprive them, if your vision is they're being punished
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: for the killing of a life, therefore they've surrendered their life,
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: it's sort of eye for an eye kind of justice.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: You would they would be the rest of their lives
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: in genes. And you know, we can debate whether that's
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: reasonable or not if you want to provide a public
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: safety reason. People often age out of their violence. So
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of men typically these were talking mostly about
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: men who do these things. You know, by the time
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: they're in their forties or fifties, they're much less violent.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: Testosterone declines, they get older and wiser, they're not interested
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: in criminal in that kind of criminal behavior, many of
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: them are not. So does that suggests you don't need
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: life sentences for murder? And I think it also depends.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: And we have gradations of murder, you know, we have
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: like the impulsive stuff. That intent matters, the planfulness matters,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: that depravity matters. All of these things are are factors.
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: And I don't think we should have a one size
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: fits all incarceration for murder. Yes, that's my opinion. What
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: do you think.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: I think it depends entirely on the circumstances. If two
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: men are engaged in some sort of a dispute and
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: one winds up killing the other one, that's a big
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: difference between that and someone breaking in your house and
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: killing your daughter.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, correct. And I also think even in that like,
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: I really am opposed to these standard ground laws. I
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: think those are if you have the opportunity to avoid
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: conflict and to avoid you are not. I would prefer
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: as a state to require that you walk away even
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: if it makes you feel embarrassed. Then give you the
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: right to kill someone for offending you. And those videos
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: of the guys that shot the guy on his knees
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: in the parking lot in the I forgot what state
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: it was like not long year or two ago. They
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: got into an altercation in the parking lot, like if
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: I have words with someone in a parking shot a
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: guy on his knee. Yes, there was no threat to him,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: and he was not prosecuted on the standard ground are
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: which is nuts? Why was the guy on his knees?
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: He I forgot to say, don't shoot me or something.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: Oh Jesus, so it was it was crazy. He didn't
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: get prosecuted, I don't think. So we can look up
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: the facts. There were several cases. There were several cases
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: like this. But you know, like I remember when I
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: was doing shoto kan karate, my sense Kazumi Tabata, this
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: was years ago, thirty years ago now, and he told
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: us the following story. He said, there was a sense
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: in this village in Japan, and the students were coming
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: to the dojo and there was the the best student
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: the you know, and then all the other students, and
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: they were walking through the village and they passed they
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: approached a horse that was on the street from the rear,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: and it startled the horse and as the horse reared
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: up and kicked its leg. The best student instantly did
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: a kind of an avoidance, kind of twisted his body
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: and avoided the kick, and the and the and the
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: horse's leg went right in front of him. And all
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: the other students were amazed at his ability. And they
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: get to the dojo and they tell the sense, this
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: is my sense telling me this story, telling all of
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: us this story. And they those students get to this
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: the dojo, and they tell the sense the story marveling
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: at the at the ability of this master student to
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: definitely avoid the strike. And the sense is very angry,
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: and they don't understand. Why why is he so angry?
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: He said, if he were a really good student of mine,
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: he would have walked on the other side of the street.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: He would have avoided the horse altogether. So the real
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: wisdom is to avoid avoidance of conflict in the first place.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: There's no reason to seek out conflict, and so on
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: these standard ground laws. You know, if the choices either
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: you just avoid the conflict. You know, someone someone swore
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: at you or called you an asshole, or was an
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: unreasonable jerk, that doesn't give you the right to kill them.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I don't know how we got onto this
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: as well. The penalty, Oh yeah, murder exactly exactly, So
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: you know, so different gradations.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I just don't know how much of a
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: deterrent it is locking people up. I just I'm not sure.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: I'm not really sure if that actually stops people from
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: doing things.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: I think it stops some people. I think there have
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: been academic research on this.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: I just don't think there's any real rehabilitation other than
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: personal choice. I mean, I think the real rehabilitation comes
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: from someone making a personal choice to never be that
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: person that way. Again, Yes, for most of them, you're
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: you're you're being locked up with a bunch of hardened criminals,
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: and you you're that's your You're.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: Completely But you're not suggesting we have a society in
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: which when you commit violent acts, we do nothing. No
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not no, not no, I'm suggested. You're struggling with
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: this is what you're saying.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the concept of nuances, Yes, this is this
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: is applied here better than anywhere else.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: I think I got the impression looking at your face
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: a moment ago when I told my sort of sweet
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: sense a Japanese karate story that you didn't agree necessarily. No,
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: that's a very wise way of looking at it. Yeah,
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: don't don't be near a fucking horse that wants to
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: kick you. Yeah, get out of there. Oh. I'm a
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: big believer in avoiding conflict. Yeah, I'm the first guys.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: Conflict not intellectual conflict. Yeah, exactly. Physical words and violence
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: are different.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: Extremely extremely different. Yeah, I mean intellectual conflict. I think
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: it is actually important and you learn from it. Yes,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: very rarely do you learn too much?
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: You learn.
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: Don't do that again. That's where you learn from physical conflict. Yes,
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: don't do that again. Yes, just it's just you know what,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: what happens in nature with animals happens with people if
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: you let them get to that level, you scratch down
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: to the you know, remove that thin film of society.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: And yes, there we are violent. But I keep coming
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: back to what I argue in Blueprint. You know, we
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: have those tendencies, but equally, we have tendencies to be
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: kind and friendly and yes, and we have to create
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: the environment to uh to foster those I have a
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: there's a sense in which, and I talk about this
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: in the book, there's a sense in which, as we
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: create those environments we actually change ourselves as a species.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: There's this set of ideas that's known as gene culture coevolution,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: and the idea is that we create certain kinds of
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: cultural environments. Those kind of cultural environments advantage certain ones
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: of us, making those of us that are born with
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: certain abilities better off, which then leads to those environments
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: being created even more. Let me give you an example
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: of that. The most famous example of this is something
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: known as lactase persistence. So many people, not about half
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: the world can adults can drink milk. The other half cannot.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: They get lactose intolerant. Well, why can you drink milk
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: as an adult? Have you ever thought about that? Why
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: are you capable of drinking milk as an adult? In
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: our ancestral state, actually, up till about ten thousand years ago,
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: only babies could to digest milk because only babies had milk.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: Babies would suckle at their mother's breasts and have milk,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: and then they be weaned, and then they would never
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: drink milk again. There'd be no milk to drink. There
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: was therefore no reason for any adult to be able
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: to digest lactose, which is the principal sugar in milk.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: Because there was no lactose in your diet, you didn't
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: encounter milk. So human beings were able to digest lactose
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: when they were babies. They lost that capacity all human
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: beings when they got to about two or three or
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: four five, when they no longer were able to du
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: just milk. So the enzymes in their body were programmed,
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: as it were, to only work when they were infants.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: Well about between three and nine thousand years ago, in
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: multiple places in Africa and in Europe, human beings suddenly
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: domesticate animals. We domesticate milk producing animals like cattle and
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: sheep and goats and camels. And now all of a sudden,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: there's a supply of milk around us because of our
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: cultural innovation, because of the thing we invented, we created
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: the domestic breeds. Now we have milk. Now, therefore, those
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: among us who were mutants, who were born with the
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: ability to have our lactase, the enzyme that digests lactose,
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: persist into adulthood. This is known as lactase persistence. Those
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: of us who had that would have a survival advantage
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: because we could have another source of calories that the
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: rest of the people in our group couldn't consume. They
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: couldn't drink milk like we could, and we had a
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: source of unspoiled water. During times of drought, we could
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: drink milk. Everyone else had to drink this filthy water
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: that they didn't have access to. So those among us
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: who had these qualities could reproduce better survive, had a
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: survival advantage. It turns out that this has happened several times.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: This has been well documented. The genetics of this has
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: all been worked out several times. In the last three
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: to nine thousand years. Because of a human cultural product,
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: we have evolved to be slightly different genetically, and it
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't stop with cows. I think that when we invent
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: cities about over five thousand years ago, so we invent
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: agriculture about ten thousand years ago. It's debated exactly when
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: we invent cities, but between five and ten thousand years
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: ago we start having fixed settlements. Earlier, you and I
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: were talking about population density and having to live with
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: other people, which is not our ancestral state. Packed not
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: with other people. We always lived as socially. I think
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: that as we invent cities, people with different kinds of
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: brains are better able to survive in cities. So now
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: that we've invented cities, we're advantaging people with certain kinds
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: of brains. And therefore I think in a thousand or
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: two thousand or five thousand years, just like the milk example,
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: they'll be different people as a result of something we
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: humans manufactured that we made. And I could keep giving
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: you examples of this. There's in the book. I have
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: another example of a They're called the sein Nomads. They
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: live in the Philippines. These are people who don't live
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: on land. They live on houseboats that sail around the
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: Pacific for thousands of years. They've had this lifestyle and
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: they dive for their food, dive so they forage on
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: the seabed. They are the world's best free divers. They
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: spend hours per day underwater. They can hold their breath
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: longer than anyone else, and they do it nothing except
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: with weights and wooden goggles. They dive down into the
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: seabed and forage, and they hunt. They hunt underwater with spears. Okay,
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: they hunt underwater with spears. Mind boggling wow. But they
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: have evolved, have different spleens and different oxygen metabolism than
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: you and I. So those among them that could survive
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: the dives, fed their families, made more babies. And now
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: we think this happened two thousand years ago. They're different,
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: the ones that couldn't died. So their invention of a
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: seafaring way of life, their invention of a way of
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: living at sea, the boat technology, the spear fishing technology.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: The invention of those technologies creates an environment, a cultural
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: environment around them, which modifies natural selection and changes the
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: kind of genes that those people have. These are discussed
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: in blueprint and there are many examples of it. I
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: want to see an image of these goggles if you google.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: If you google, that's their little sea minted goggles. If
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: you google see nomad goggle. You may come up with it.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: And let me give you what are they using for
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: a lens? There's no lens? What? Yeah, they're little slits,
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: So what's the point. I didn't look at the technology
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: at that level. But lens then it doesn't protect your eyes?
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: I think it. I think it. It may reduce glare underwater,
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: you know, by having you look through slits.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 3: It's got some something on I can see it.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: Huh, well no, because they didn't have glass, or maybe
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: they that's like a piece of it.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 3: Well, the one this kid's holding up, it's got something.
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: On let me see. No, that's a modern scuba.
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hold up a wooden diving mask.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he may have made it from wood. But the
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: ancient one, yeah, this is the Bajau. So if you
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: look at so look at the can you find something
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: looking goggle? I mean it'll be hard to find. Maybe
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: no one's put it on. And now, of course they
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: have modern technology, so they can, uh, they can. That
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 1: snows are totally model plastic. Yes, but they but they
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: used to have these wood goggles.
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: Anyway, there believe is that they adopted or adapted rather
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: to this new lifestyle sort.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: Of like genetically adapt gass, like the.
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: Inuit have developed this ability to not get frostbite and
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: to not get numb fingers in cold weather.
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: I did not know that example, but that would be
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: an example of that.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an example from I believe they were
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: talking about it from Alaska that they they did genetic
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: testing on these people and.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: They did different circulation. Yes, yes, yes, yes, that would
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: be another example of just exactly that example. I didn't
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: put that one in the book. But yes, yeah, we're
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: incredibly flexible, right, yes, well we have two kinds of flexibility.
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: So so think about think about like when we settled
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: the Tibetan Plateau. When human beings settled the Tibetan Plateau,
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: there were different challenges up there. It's cold up there,
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: and there's not a lot of oxygen up there. Now
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: we could genetic evolution is not fast in us. We
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: didn't become furry, you know, like one way to cope
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: with the cold is to become furry. Again, we didn't
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: do that. Why because we clothing. We had cultural means
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: of coping with this situation. So for the cold. To
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: cope with the cold, we used culture. There was no
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: cultural means to cope with the low oxygen up there.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 1: They didn't have bottled oxygen five thousand years ago. There
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: was no way to produce oxygen. They couldn't. They didn't
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: have the chemistry to produce ouction. So the oxygen the
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: cope with the low oxygen tent pressure up there, low
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: oxygen tension up there, They evolved genetically. So the people
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: who live in the Himalayas, they actually have different kinds
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: of hemoglobe and compared to you and me better able
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: to extract oxygen from the environment. So there are two
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: different challenges that are coped with in different ways. One
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: is coped with culturally by cultural evolution. One is coped
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: with genetically, which is much slower with genetic evolution. And
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: it's the cultural evolution. It's the cultural traits that so
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: natural selection equips us with a capacity to accumulate knowledge
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: and to teach each other stuff. And given that rare ability,
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: as we just us earlier, we're able to spread out
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: across the planet and live in all these dissimilar environments.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: We use our cultural ability to dominate the planet.
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: Basically, Now, when you were when you were creating this,
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: were you actually thinking of it as a blueprint that
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: someone would follow.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, and no, I wasn't thinking of it that way.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: But having finished the book, I do think that there
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: are like I don't in the book. I talk a
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: little bit in the book about implications of these ideas
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: for artificial intelligence, like as we create robots, even if
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: we create sex robots or autonomous vehicles or forms of
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: bots online, how should those bots be programmed so as
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: not to injure our society. So there are some policy
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: implications I discussed in the book, but I wasn't thinking
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: of this as a as a as a as a prescription,
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: like this is the way to live a good life.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: But partly because as I, as I argue in the book,
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: you know, we don't need to affirmatively seek a good life.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: We have been endowed by natural selection with a capacity
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: to make a good life full of these qualities. So
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: this blueprint is I want to use the word god
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: given it. It doesn't come from God, but it's God given,
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: you know, it comes from somewhere else. It comes from
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: natural selection that we that we do this. So I yeah,
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: how much time have you put into artificial intelligence? And
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: a lot we do a lot of work in my
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: lab on AI.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: What about sex robots? Like what rules should they give
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: for sex robots? How much could that damage interpersonal relationship?
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a great question. That's exactly the right question
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: in my view. So our concern with sex robots from
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: a liberty point of view, should not in the slightest
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: be whether you enjoy a sex robot. It's your business
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: right you buy or bot do what you want. I
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: really don't I see I find I would be hard
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: pressed to object. The problem is with se Well. Let's
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: back up from the less provocative. Let's come back to
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: sex well. Let's pick a simpler example. First. Let'salk about
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: your children talking to Alexa. So the person who designs
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: Alexa wants to make your child's experience easy and pleasant,
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: and as part of the programming of Alexa, because they
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: want to make Alexa the obedient servant of your child.
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 1: It doesn't require your child to say, please, Alexa, would
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: you know play the music for me? Your child can
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: be as rude as she wants to Alexa, and Alexa
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: will do what she wants. What you should be concerned about, however,
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: is not your child's interaction with Alexa. What you should
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: be concerned about is what your child is learning from
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: interacting with Alexa that then she takes to the playground.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: So now she's rude to other children. So Alexa is
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: corroding our social fabric. Alexa in this example is making
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: children rude to each other. So our concern is not
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: so much. And do we make you know, Like Asimov's
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: laws of robotics, it's not that we want to program
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: the robots so that there don't harm you. It's true
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: the first law, we don't want the robot to, through
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: an act of commission or omission, harm or allow a
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: human to come to be harmed. It's that we're concerned
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: about how the robot, in interacting with you might cause
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: you to harm others. The robot, the robotic intelligence, creates
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: these externalities, these cascade effects. So in the Alexa example,
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: we might want to regulate the programming of devices that
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: speak to children. Not because we want to deprive your
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: daughter of the right to speak how she wants, but
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: because we recognize that that robot is going to cause
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: your daughter to be rude to other people.
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: Is it really Do you really think, yes, what's the
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: weather that that would make your totally.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: But surely I think it will contribute. So it's an example.
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: It's not like I'm not arguing that Alexa should become ornately.
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's so novel to kids that they know
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: it's not a person. I don't think it.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: Really is right. But we're using these examples to build
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 1: the thing. So let's talk about the sex robots. So
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: some people believe that actually the emergence of sex robots,
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: which will surely appear in the next ten or twenty
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: years will will be a fantastic boon. They think that
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: people be able to experiment. You'll be able to experiment
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: with same sex relationships, for example, group sex. You might
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: learn to be a better lover, so you could practice
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: the robots, and therefore you would be more experienced when
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: you were having sex with a real human. So you
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: can't get venereal diseases from sex robots. You can't hurt
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: their feelings. So people think that the argument based on
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: ethical grounds is that this would be terrific, that this
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: will be a benefit. Other people have the opposite opinion.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: Other people think that actually having sex with robots, first
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: of all, is symbolically and conceptually vile. They think that,
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: you know, it takes sex and converts it into a
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: kind of a machine, literally a machine like you function.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: And they furthermore think that it would result in you
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: in one having a kind of anonymous or impersonal interactions
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: with humans. Subsequently, that you'll be entrained, you know, to
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: let's say, want an obedient partner. For example, I don't
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: have a stand on this, like I don't know which
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: way it's going out, and in a way, I don't
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: have to make a stand on it, because what I'm
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: interested in recognizing is that when we talk about allowing
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: people to have sex with sex robots, not allowing that
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: it's going to happen. The focus of our concern should
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: be not what is your experience in your bedroom when
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: you have sex with a sex robot. Our concern is
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: a state like my interest. I have no stake or
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: control over what you're doing over there, but my interest
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 1: is in once you have had that experience, how does
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: that change how you interact with other people? And there,
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: I think just like anything else, Like you can make
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: all the garbage you want in your house, but if
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 1: you start polluting the environment, you're harming me. So now
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 1: I have a reason for intervening in your activities on
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: your land. You can't pollute your own land if that
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: pollution runs off onto my land, and so the similar
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: argument can be made. Or look at autonomous vehicles. Here's
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: an example. Right now, we have all roads, almost all
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: roads have just human drivers, and in twenty or thirty years,
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: almost all roads will probably have only non human drivers.
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 1: Machines will drive, and those autonomous vehicles probably can be
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: yoked together. They can communicate with each other. So that
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: you'll have like trains of cars moving in synchrony, like
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: each of them will be communicating with the other nearby cars,
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: and you'll have lamin or flow where all these vehicles
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: are smoothly moving and joining the highway and leaving the
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: highway and communicating on a citywide scale, slowing traffic down
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: miles away because they anticipate with AI that there'll be
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: a jam here if they don't do that, And I
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: think that'll be actually great. I'm actually looking forward to autonomy.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, I still like to take my car to
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: a speedway, but you know, drive itself with stick, which
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: I like. But you know, but in between, we're going
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 1: to have a world of what I call hybrid systems,
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: of human driven cars and autonomous vehicles coexisting on a plane,
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: on an even place. And we need to be worried
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: about that because these autonomous vehicles, when we interact with them,
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: are going to change how we interact with each other.
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: For example, do we program the autonomous vehicle to drive
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: at a constant steady speed. If you're the designer of
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: the car, you might say, gee, I don't want this
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: car to crash. I want the car to drive in
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: a very predictable fashion, and that that's what's best for
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: the occupants of the car, that's what's going to allow
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: me to sell more vehicles. But it may be the
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: case that actually, when people are in contact with such
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: a vehicle, they get lulled into a false sense of security. Oh,
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: that vehicle never does anything new. I don't need to
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: pay so much attention to the car in front of me.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: I just just drive at a steady clip. And then
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: they veer off and they go to a part of
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: the highway where they're just human drivers, and now, having
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: been lolled into a false sense of security, they cause
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: more collisions. Is not paying attention. So that autonomous vehicle
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: has changed how I drive in a way that harms
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: other people. So maybe the pro programming of the vehicle
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: should be to occasionally do erratic things, to like suddenly
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: slow down or speed up a little bit, obliging me
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 1: to stay vigilant and pay attention as I'm interacting with
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: that car, so that then when I go to another
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: part of the highway way and I interact with just humans,
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: I have retained that vigilance. Once again, The lesson here
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: is that it's not just about the one on one
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: interaction between the robotic artificial intelligence and the human being.
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: It's about how the robots affect us. And in my
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: lab we do many experiments in social systems where we
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: take a group of people and we drop online, we
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: drop a bot, or in the laboratory we have a
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: physical robot and we watch how the presence of the
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: robot doesn't just modify how the human interacts with the robot,
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: but how the humans interact with each other. So if
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: we put our robot right there looking at us with
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: its third eye, would we you know, would change how
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: you and I talk to each other, make us different.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: That's the experiments we're doing. Well.
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: Clearly in the sex robot realm, that's going to be
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: a problem. I mean, we see the difference between humans
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: that have porn addictions. Yeah, that's a good example porn addictions.
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: When people do, they developed this very impersonal way of
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: communicating with people, and they think about sex and the
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: objectification of the opposite sex and a very different reason,
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: a very different way. It flavors the way you flavors
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: your expectations. Yes, yes, and it makes it difficult. It
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: can make it difficult for you to have normal sexual relationships.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: If you've come to see if your expectations are are
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: guided by porn and that is going to be radically
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: magnified by some sort of artificial life form that you
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: create that's indistinguishable. Yes, if you can have an indistinguishable
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: sex partner, that is, you know, some incredibly beautiful woman
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: that is a robot, and then you or.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: Men and women should be quite happy to change their
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: spouses for robots.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 2: I wonder if women are going to be as into
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 2: it as men, because I think women desire more emotional
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 2: intimacy and I think I mean on on a scale
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: than men do.
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: I think I think the jury is still out on
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: what what the relative balance between men and women. We
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: might be surprised that that we'll.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: Be repleten, especially given societal expectations and women conformed.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: Those and a lot of men can be sure, So
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: it could go both ways. I don't I'm not prepared
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: to make a prediction. Who's going to be better off
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: in the gender debate with the emergence of sex robots. Well,
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: maybe the way you suggest, I don't know.
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 2: Well, we're also in this weird transition genetically where they're
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 2: doing genetic experiments on humans and with the advent of
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 2: crisper and emerging technologies.
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: I talked about that in the book.
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 2: Too entirely possible, that there's not going to be any
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: frumpy bodies anymore, that that's.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: Hundreds of years away. But is it, Yes, I think so.
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: I wonder. I mean, I don't know if it is.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: I think if they start cracking them out in China
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: and they start giving birth to eight foot tall Superman, yes,
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: twelve inch dicks, yes, we're going to have a real issue.
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes we will. Yes, that's the least of it. Yes,
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 1: like God.
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: But I mean it's really entirely possible that in the
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: future they're going to have that we're going to have
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: that's likely humans.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think that is likely. The debate is how
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: far in the future. So I don't think we're going
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 1: to start by using these technologies to cure monogenetic diseases,
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 1: so you know, like thallacemia for example. So diseases are
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: certain immune deficiencies, a disease where single gene is defective,
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 1: and those will be the initial targets. But once we
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: start with that, eventually I think there will be people
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: who will want to genetically engineer other people they're offspring,
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: for example, and modify them in the ways that you suggest.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe not twelve inch dicks, but maybe you know, ability
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: to run fast or something, sure far smarter? I mean yes.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: Isn't that one of these side effects that they shown
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: with the genetic manipulation of these Chinese babies to eliminate HIV,
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: that they made them smarter.
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: No, I don't know if they made them smarter. What's
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: clear from the most recent findings I've seen from that
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 1: case is that, unsurprisingly, as anyone could predict, the technology
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: is not good enough to restrict the mutations to one
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: particular region of the genome. So there were other changes
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: in the genome in these children that occurred elsewhere rather
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: than the targeted region, which was to increase their immunity
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: to HIV. And we don't know what those are, but
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: those could kill those kids quickly. We could make them
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: better in some ways. We have no way of knowing yet.
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: But I think the conclusion was that it increased their intelligence.
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: I don't. I think it's I have not seen those results,
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: and I think it's it would be premature find that
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 1: it would, because they're remature to come to that.
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: Their problem is, yeah, the problem is also sensationalist clickbait,
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 2: which is that's what you want to click, you know,
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: not just that they did the HIV and they made
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: them smarter. It is going to get like forty percent
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 2: more clicks.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: Yes versus you know, yeah that I mean, that's just
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 1: the nature of humans, right. Yes, Just to be clear,
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: I talk about the Crisper example in blueprint, I actually
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: talk about how these technologies again my lens on, it
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: is how these technologies are going to change how we
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: interact with each other. And it goes back to the
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: example we were talking about at the beginning. When we
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: invented cities, that was a technology that changed how we
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: interacted with each other. So human beings that for a
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: very long time have been inventing. When we invented weapons,
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: that was a technology that changed how we interact with
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: each other. So we have previously done this kind of thing.
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: We've invented a technology that changed how we interact with
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: each other. And I'm very interested in and discuss some
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: of those implications.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm incredibly interested in this because I love to
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: study history, and I love to study how crazy the
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: world was four thousand and five thousand years ago, a
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 2: thousand years ago, and what it's going to be like
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 2: in the future. I just think our understanding of the
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 2: consequences of our actions are so different than anybody has
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: ever had before, just such a broader. First of all,
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: we have examples from all over the world now that
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: we can study very closely, which I don't think really
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: was available to that many people up into me early recently.
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 1: You mean, I'm sorry you're saying the examples are more numerous,
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: or a capacity to discern them is higher.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: Our capacity to discern them, and just our in depth
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: understanding of these various cultures all over the world, like
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 2: what you've been telling you today about these the divers
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: and others. We just have so much more data, yes,
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: and so much more of an understanding than ever before. Yes,
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: I love the idea that we are. I mean, I
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 2: believe that this is probably the best time ever to
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: be alive, and I think that it's probably.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: I think that's true.
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 2: I think there's certainly a lot of terrible things that
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 2: are wrong in the world today, also true, but I
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 2: think that there's less of that and more good.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: No, I think that's right. And but one of the
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: arguments that I make is this is a kind of
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: Stephen Pinker argument that you're outlining, which is, you know,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: with the emergence of I mean, people are living longer
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: than they ever have on the whole planet, fewer people
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: in starvation, we have less violence. I mean, every indicator
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: of human well being is up. And it's partly due
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: or largely due in the recent last thousand years to
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: the emergence of the Enlightenment and the philosophy and the
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: science that was guided that emerged about three hundred years
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: ago and two hundred and some odd years ago and
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 1: culminating in the present and continuing. So I think this
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: is not just the kind of so called whiggish view
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 1: of history. It's not just a progressive sort of fantasy.
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: I think it's the case that these philosophical and scientific
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: moves that our species made in the last few hundred
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 1: years has improved our well being. However, as we've been
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: discussing today, it's not just historical forces that are tending
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: towards making us better off. A deeper and more ancient
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 1: and more powerful force is also at work, which is
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 1: natural selection. It's evolutionary and not just historical forces that
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: are relevant to our well being, and we don't just
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: need to look to philosophers to find the path to
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: a good life. Natural selection has equipped us with these
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: capacities for love and friendship and cooperation and teaching and
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: all these good things we've been discussing that also tend
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: to a good life. So yes, I totally agree with you.
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: We're better off today than we've ever been on average
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: across the world. However, it's not just that that's contributing
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: to our well being.
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: This natural selection is literally why we are in this
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 2: state now and why we are hoping this trend will continue. Yes,
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: and we will be in this better place fifty years
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: from now, one hundred years from now.
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: Well, natural selection doesn't work over those time scales, so
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: those are historical forces. But the point is we are
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 1: set up for success. You know, we are equipped with
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: these You know, you're given five fingers which make it possible,
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: and an opposable thumb, which allows you to manipulate tools.
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 1: So natural selection has given you an opposable thumb. Culture
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 1: lets you use a computer.
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: Do you worry about the circums of this natural process
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: by artificial intelligence? That artificial intelligence is going to introduce
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 2: some new, incredibly powerful factor into this whole chain of
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 2: events that by having sex robots and sex or robot workers, yes,
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: things becoming automated. Yes, this I'm concerned.
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is I think, well, I'm very concerned
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 1: about how technology is going to affect our economy. These Again,
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: these concerns were not the first generation to face these concerns.
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: There were similar concerns with the Industrial Revolution that workers
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 1: were being put out of work when machines were invented. Nevertheless,
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: work persisted, people still had jobs to do. There was
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 1: a disruption, There's no doubt about it. I think Google
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: and the information revolution and these types of robotic automation
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: are disruptive. They're going to affect how we allocate labor
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: and capital and data in our society. There's no doubt
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 1: about all of that. I thought you were alluding to
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: just to check if you were to debate, which I
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: don't know the answer to, on whether AI will you know,
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 1: are we going to face like a terminator type existence
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: where you know, the machines rise up and kill us
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 1: all or not? And you know, very smart people are
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: on both sides of that debate, And I read them
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: all and like I like, he's right, and then they
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 1: read the guy that has the opposite I'm like, no, no,
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: he's right, and then it goes back and forth. I
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: don't know who's right. Well, it goes back to nuance, right, Yes,
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 1: it is nuance, but it's hard to know whether. And
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 1: again we're not talking over our lifetimes, right, over hundreds
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: of years. You know, is there time a thousand years
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: from now when the human beings will say, what the
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 1: hell were our ancestors doing inventing artificial intelligence that they're
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: wiping us out? I don't know the answer to that question.
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 2: Well, I think there's an issue also with the concept
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: of artificial like artificial life, artificial intelligence. It's I think
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 2: it's going to be a life. It's just going to
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 2: be a life that we've created. And I don't think
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 2: it's artificial. I just think it's a different kind of life.
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: I think that we're thinking of biologically based life of
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 2: sec you know, yes, you know, we'll be pretty much
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 2: reproduction in terms of the way we've always known it
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 2: as being the only way that life exists. But if
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 2: we can create something and that's something decides to do
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: things to create live on its own, Yeah, it's silicon
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 2: based life form, Like why not? Why why does life
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: have to be something that only exists through the you know,
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: multiplication of cells.
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's very charitable of you, and uh, it's people
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 1: make that claim. Some people think that, you know, those
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 1: machines in the distant future will look back at us
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 1: as like one stage of evolution that culminated in them.
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 2: That we're I've always said that we are some sort
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: of an electronic caterpillar that doesn't know that it's going
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: to give birth to a butterfly. We're making a cocoon.
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 2: We don't even know what it's doing. That's a great metaphor.
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 2: I have a hard time accepting that because you're a person. Yes,
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: it's against my interests, but we're so flawed. All these
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: things that we've outlined with us, those that go away
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: with artificial intelligence is.
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: A deep philosophical question, Joe. I mean, I don't think
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: it's inevitable. And I think if the single celled organisms
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: are sitting around wondering what the future we're going to
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: be like, well, are we going to be replaced antibiotics
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: and kill us? They are going to kill us? I
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: mean this is I mean, we are so flawed.
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 2: We do pollute the ocean, we do pull the fish
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 2: out of it, we do fuck up the air, we
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 2: do commit genocide. There's all these things that are real. Well,
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 2: the artificial life won't have those problems because it won't
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 2: be emotionally based, won't be biologically based. It will just exist.
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 1: That's a really good story. We're so flawed. Why not? Now?
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: We are flawed, but we have beauty in it. I'm
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 1: very flawed that we are flawed.
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's beautiful, beautiful too, But I think vultures
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 2: probably think they're beautiful too, that's why they breed with
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: each other.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: Well, they are beautiful. But the points I think we
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: have a flawed beauty. Like I'm going to stitch to
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: my principles that we are, despite our flaws, worth it.
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 2: But there is something wonderful about us. And I think
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 2: that that wonderful creative quality is the reasons and why
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 2: we created artificial life in the first place.
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: It's like this, we've had creation, We've had that impetus.
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 1: You know, if you look at a lot of the
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 1: the art, whether it's the Egyptian you know, the the
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: the Pyramids or other kinds of artistic expression. We seem
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: to have had a desire to transcend death, you know,
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 1: to make things that that looked like us but weren't
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: alive forever. Actually so, I mean I think in that regard,
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 1: I think you're quite right that it's not going to stop.
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: That tendency is not going to stop. Now. Your your
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 1: very as I said, charitable positive take on the claim
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: and your analogy to single celled organisms which were just
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 1: you know, but a fleeting, not a fleeting. They're still there,
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 1: but a phase in our evolution, you know, is something
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to be thinking about because it's disturbing. Honestly, Well,
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 1: it's an objective perspective.
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 2: If I took myself out of the human race, which
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 2: I really can't, but if I tried to fake it,
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 2: I would say, oh, I see what's.
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: Going on here? Yeah, the face.
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, these dummies are buying iPhones and new MacBooks because
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 2: they know that this is what's going to help the
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 2: production of newer, more superior technologies the more we consume.
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 2: It's also based I think in a lot of ways,
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 2: our insane desire for materialism is fueling this, and it
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 2: could be an inherent property of the human species, that
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 2: it is designed to create this artificial life, and that
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: literally is what it's here for. And much like an
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 2: ant is creating an ant hill and doesn't exactly have
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 2: some sort of a future plan for its kids and
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: its four O one K plan, that what we're doing
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 2: is like this inherent property of being a human being,
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: our curiosity, our wanderlust, our culture.
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 1: Things.
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all these things are built in because if you
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 2: follow them far enough down the line one hundred years,
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 2: two hundred years, it inevitably leads to artificial life.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think, I think that's possible. And of course
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 1: we're not going to be alive to test that idea there,
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 1: so we will maybe with Crisper and all this crazy
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: shit that's coming down and come on you where No,
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 1: there's nothing's going to happen. In the pace of innovation.
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: People always have been safe. You go back every decade,
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: people saying just around the corner, just around the corner.
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: These things that are take forever. They're very hard. Biological systems
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 1: are very hard to engineer. I don't and you know,
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: of course, the people who do that kind of work
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: will often I think a lot of them engage in
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 1: snake oil. You know they want to fund their restart.
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 2: But I think it's entirely possible that there's a twenty
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: year old listening to this podcast.
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 1: Well, one hundred and fifty, Yes, that's possible.
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe a lot more than that. I think there's I
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 2: think it's entirely possible that thirty year olds today could
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: be one hundred and fifty. But I think there's you
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 2: give another ten years of research, you give maybe ten
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 2: years more. I think it's entirely Well, there's a famous
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 2: bet about this. You may know that the Olshansky Alstod
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 2: bet between about that, yes, where they bet that about
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 2: ten or twenty years ago, they bet that there was
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 2: a person born that then that year who would live
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: to be one hundred and fifty. And on one side
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 2: you had one guy who said, know, they they bet
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 2: a billion dollars and they endowed it with They opened
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 2: up a bank account, they put in you know, they're
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 2: using compound interest to get to that summ of money.
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 2: And they oblige the nerds.
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, and they obliged, and they obliged their their yes,
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 1: and they and they and they designated the National Academy
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: of Sciences or some entity like that that would that
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 1: would adjudicate the bet in one hundred and fifty years,
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: and then they specified the kinds of documentation that might
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 1: be needed, and they allowed for in the future they
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: may be other ways of ascertaining how old someone is,
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: and those can be used, and that's the bet. So
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 1: you might be right about that. Like you know, there
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 1: are humans that live naturally to be one hundred and twenty.
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: We have that capacity. Actually, here's an interesting idea. Why
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: do we die at all? Why has natural selection never
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: given us an immortal species? Have you ever thought about that?
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've never reached a conclusion.
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 1: But I always figured.
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 2: You live long enough, well, especially up until recent history,
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 2: only long enough to recognize that it was all crazy hustle.
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 1: That's more philosophical, I believe. For a scientific answer, here's
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 1: one answer for why we're not immortal. So if you
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 1: think about it, why would natural selection not have created
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 1: a creature that lived forever? Would that be? Why should
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 1: we die? Okay, so here's the one answer. Is it's
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 1: not known for sure if this is the answer, but
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 1: this is a good answer. Imagine, are two different kinds
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 1: of things that can kill you, intrinsic causes and extrinsic causes,
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: so things inside your body that result in you dying, defects, diseases,
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 1: and so forth, or things outside your body like accidents,
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: lightning strikes, trees fall and you just die and so forth.
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 1: Because it's impossible to eliminate all extrinsic causes, because some
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 1: people are going to die from accidents, it would be
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 1: inefficient from the point of view of evolution, to evolve
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: to be immortal, because we would have all this capacity
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 1: to be immortal. We would have these bodies capable of immortality,
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: which let's say, would be evolutionarily demanding, like to evolve
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 1: anything like an eye or a brain, or strong any
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: any quality lactase right, like we talked about earlier, you
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 1: don't have lactase persistence into adulthood because it's not needed,
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 1: So evolution doesn't waste anything. There'd be no reason for that,
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: So there'd be no there would there would there would
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: be no reason. The argument goes to evolve immortality because
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: inevitably some people would be killed eventually by accidents anyway.
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 1: So unless you can create a world in which there
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 1: are no accidents, there are no extrinsic causes of death,
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 1: it would be if inefficient from an evolutionary point of
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 1: view to evolve immortality, so death the reason we die naturally.
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 1: Some people think is that the reason we die naturally
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: is that there are unnatural causes of death in the world,
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 1: like accidents. If we could eliminate the unknownatural causes so
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 1: that nowhere no time ever were we ever killed by
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: trees falling or lightning strikes or things like that, then actually,
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: over time we would evolve to live indefinitely. This is
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 1: the theory. It's crazy idea. It is fascinating. But do
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: you think that nature had that sort of sort of foresight. Well,
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 1: it's not a foresight, but that's how natural selection works.
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: Think about like, if I have suddenly magically transformed your
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 1: body at great expense to make you capable of immortality,
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: and then two days from now you're hit by a bus,
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 1: I've wasted all that effort.
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 2: But if you've only done it to one person, you
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 2: wasted that effort. If you did it to other people,
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 2: you have the potential to create an incredibly wise person
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 2: with a thousand years of life and experience and education.
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: He also would die. He also would die, So everyone
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: eventually would die from these extrens of causes. So perhaps, well, no,
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 1: that's the assumption in the model. If it's not. Perhaps,
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: if in fact there are no extremes, If in fact
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 1: there is a world in which you're never struck by lightning,
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 1: never hit by a bus, never a tree branch, then
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 1: the theory is that we would have evolved to be immortal.
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 2: Like the life that you live, you're inevitably going to
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 2: get killed by extrinsic causes. And if you extend that
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 2: life to a thousand years, then it's absolutely going to happen. Yes,
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 2: therefore why bother that's just living in a bubble, just
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 2: terrified of the world of rocks.
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you can't transform. You can't take this theory
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 1: and this model and apply to an individual and an
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 1: individual life. It's about how our species evolved. It's not
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 1: about how you should live your life. I mean, it's
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 1: also true. I don't think you should live your life afraid.
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: I think that's a difficult I think that's a sad life.
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 1: To live a life afraid. It takes practice to be unafraid.
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 2: I wonder if you'd be more afraid if you could
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 2: live a thousand years without an accident, you know, because
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 2: like if you're one of those crazy rock climber dudes
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 2: like Alex Hanald and he's crazy.
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 1: He's crazy. I love him, though. Have you talked? Have
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 1: you met him? Yeah, I've had him on a couple
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 1: of times. Oh my god, he's awesome. I'm sure he is.
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 1: You know the h of course it's amygdala is fucked up.
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 1: You know this, right, But he is no fear. No,
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 1: he does have fear. You're wrong.
• 2:15:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, really, absolutely has fear. He just understands his capacity
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 2: and his ability.
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: You think it's rashly says I can do this. Therefore
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 1: I should not be afraid because I read that he
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 1: his brain and that his his fear centers are different
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 1: than the rest of us, is what I read, And
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 1: maybe that's wrong. I don't know.
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 2: Did he tell you he didn't say anything about that,
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 2: Oh he was. I don't know about that.
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 2: He said basically that the experience, he just stays mellow
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 2: and calm, and then if things go wrong, it's really bad,
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 2: Like you don't want to be freaking out.
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's like, yeah, you don't panic when you're underwater
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 1: and you lose your way. Right. There was a consumes
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 1: oxygen amazing.
• 2:15:42
  Speaker 2: Story that my friend Donald SARONI he's a UFC fighter,
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 2: told about being trapped in a cave and bear watering
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 2: out when he was running out of oxygen. Yeah, horrible, crazy,
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 2: scary story.
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 1: And you have to those guys are also different. Either
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: they either they're born that way or they learned to
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 1: be that way. You have to keep calm because when
• 2:16:01
  Speaker 1: you and I lose are cool and start hyperventilating, our
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 1: auction consumption skyrockets, and that's the opposite of what you
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 1: need to do in that situation. That's actually what he
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 1: talked about, you know, like trying to stay calm and
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 1: battling the demons. Yeah, not going to die like this. Yes, yeah,
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 1: what an incredible story. Hmm. Yeah. The Alex Hanold thing
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 1: here is something.
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 4: I watched the movie what it talks about. He got
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 4: an MRI and they said that he's a quote what.
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 1: Did adal is different? But what did it say? How
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 1: does it say it? The kids?
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: Amigdala isn't firing? Yes, okay, but isn't that possible that
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 2: that's just through development of constant it is a calm
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 2: while you're in life threatening situation.
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 1: It's possible, and I would like to see.
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 2: Fighters brains measured in that regard. I would like to
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 2: see those soldiers well, special forces guys.
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's right, and the guy's a special
• 2:16:50
  Speaker 1: force guys. It's like the capacity to shoot back when
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 1: you're being shot at, keeping your calm, moving positions, you know,
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 1: and so forth. Those are all very important abilities noting.
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 1: But and it is also the case that some people,
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 1: for example, the most famous study in this regard was
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 1: the study of London taxi drivers. London taxi drivers can
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 1: go from any point in the city to any other
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: point in the city. It's called the knowledge. They have
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 1: a mental map of the whole city and it's freakish.
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: It takes years to be able to know how to
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 1: navigate the city with the thousands of tens of thousands
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 1: of street names, and they can do it by like
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: dead reckoning. They scan. This was a paper about ten
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 1: years ago. They brain scanned these guys and they had
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 1: I forgot which region of the brain, but they had,
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 1: through learning, it is felt modify that region of their brain.
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 1: So it's possible. Holland is like you say that he
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 1: learned to be this way that as Amigdal isn't firing
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 1: because he trained himself. But I hondled Honld Honold. I'm sorry,
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 1: Honold is this way because he learned this way. But
• 2:17:49
  Speaker 1: it's more likely I think that he's like Usain Bolt
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 1: that was born with incredibly high preponderance of fast twitched
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 1: fibers in his legs, so he can run like the wind.
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 1: He trains as well. You have both, right, Good athletes
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 1: require both innate ability plus training. Yes, and I think
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 1: Hanld is probably like that. He's probably born with an
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 1: amigdala it doesn't fire so much, and he's an amazing
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 1: you know, climber.
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 2: It's purely speculative, right, and also the nature versus nurture
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 2: would apply to chess players as well. I would like
• 2:18:18
  Speaker 2: to see their brain scan, like like the world, Gary
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 2: kaspar Off, I know, Gary, Yes, I would love to
• 2:18:23
  Speaker 2: see that guy's brain scan.
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, he's an interesting guy.
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 4: What I'll say the article goes way more into depth
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 4: than I Well, I just showed you about just that sentence.
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 4: She's the doctor who studied them specifically, looks at people
• 2:18:36
  Speaker 4: that go under high stress and look for those kinds
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 4: of things. She's been doing that since two thousand and five.
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 4: I guess and she goes. It's pages long, this whole
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 4: thing about his brain.
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 1: But it is unusual.
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 2: But it also the amount of time think about people
• 2:18:49
  Speaker 2: that are in high stress. High stress is one thing.
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 2: This kid is in a life threatening absolute fatality situation.
• 2:18:58
  Speaker 1: Sake is death every day. I know, all day. I know.
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 2: I mean he lives in a van and just climbs. Yes,
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 2: that's what he does. It's really fascinating, Yes, it is,
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 1: It's amazing. Honestly, it's amazing. So, I mean, I don't know,
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 1: I've never met him. I admire him very much, and
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 1: I love this. Like we said at the beginning, it's
• 2:19:17
  Speaker 1: very important to have skills of any kind. So his
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 1: skills are amazing. Admire music, musical skills, and carpentry skills
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 1: and martial arts skills, and statistical skills and medical skill.
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 1: Admire skills. You know, I think it's and it's worth living. Yeah,
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 1: and it's worth cultivating those skills.
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 2: Now you find out more about yourself through acquiring these
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 2: skills and knowledge and information and just abilities. Yes, you learn,
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 2: and you also learn about how to acquire skills.
• 2:19:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I think that's right. And I think, uh,
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 1: and I think it's also a kind of you also
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 1: find oftentimes that the practice of acquiring a skill teaches
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 1: you other things that can then be used in other areas.
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: So even if you like you know, like like you
• 2:19:59
  Speaker 1: make the effort to learn the violin, or to learn
• 2:20:01
  Speaker 1: Chinese for example, or whatever, you know, some effort you
• 2:20:05
  Speaker 1: that self discipline then can be translated even too something
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 1: that you're not so good at, but it's still useful
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 1: to have that. That's the Miya Mato Musashi quote the
• 2:20:12
  Speaker 1: book from the Book of Five Rings. Once you know
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 1: the way broadly you see it in all things. Yes,
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 1: that's very good. Yeah, I remember, my mind is slashing back.
• 2:20:22
  Speaker 1: We were talking about immortality. Do you remember that scene
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 1: at Helm's helms Deep when in The Lord of the Rings,
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 1: when he's they're protecting, you know, the the castle, and
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 1: the elves come and help the humans. You know the movie,
• 2:20:36
  Speaker 1: Probably know the movie. Yeah, And I was always very
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 1: sad when these elves were killed, because if they hadn't
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 1: been killed by extrinsic forces, they would have lived a
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 1: long time. They would have been immortal. So it's like
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 1: an especially sad loss. Anyway, I had wanted to mention
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 1: that earlier we were talking about that thing. So no,
• 2:20:52
  Speaker 1: what was the saying again, you just said about it.
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 1: Once you know the way broadly, you'll see it in
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 1: all things. Yes, that's right.
• 2:20:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just about a acquiring excellence in something
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 2: that you understand what it takes to acquire excellence in something,
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 2: and you can apply that to other things as well.
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 2: It's the same process, just a different path.
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.
• 2:21:11
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, Nicholas, thank you so much for being here.
• 2:21:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I can't wait to read this book.
• 2:21:16
  Speaker 2: I'm going on vacation, so I'm going to read this
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 2: with me and like some of the stories at the beginning, Man,
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 2: I really did. Thank you so much, so much for
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 2:21:23
  Speaker 1: Be grateful.
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 2: Thanks man, Thank you so much. Bye, everybody,