Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / Destiny: Owning Right Wing Trolls

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Destiny: Owning Right Wing Trolls · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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Hey humans, welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas.
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Imagine if you spend all your day on the internet, on a webcam arguing with people you disagree
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with.
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Not just people you disagree with, people who are whole ridiculous, intentionally divisive
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historical ideas and you're just trying to make them bring some sanity to what they
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believe.
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The fate of Destiny, today's guest, Destiny is the non-duplume of Steven Bonnell, the
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second who is a young gentleman.
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I feel like Ed Sullivan.
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A young gentleman on the program today uses the internet to communicate with other people
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he disagrees with.
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Destiny started out as a video game streamer who is one of the first people to professionally
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full-time stream his own video games.
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If that's something that's a world that you're not familiar with, trust me, it's massive,
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hundreds of millions of people around the world sit down and watch other people play video
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games.
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If you're good and if you can sort of narrate them in a charming and whimsical way, then you
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can get a lot of followers and with a lot of followers and a lot of viewers, a lot of money.
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That is and was the full-time job of Destiny.
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He realized he could also stream political arguments, cultural arguments with people
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mainly from the right and poke holes in them and post those videos to YouTube as well
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as just streaming them.
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That is his full-time job.
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He's massively influential online.
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I first came across him on Twitter where he is omnileiberal, you'll find out what that
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means.
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He had these kind of scathing Twitter thread takedowns of right wing nonsense.
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I felt I had something of a soulmate in this omnileiberal character who would occasionally
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parachute in and talk about the same sorts of things that I was talking about with the
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same kinds of jackasses who I was trying to defend myself against.
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Someone tried to connect us on Twitter, a few fans said, hey, you guys should chat and
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this is the result of that chat.
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He currently has, let's see how popular he is.
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689,000 subscribers on the YouTube, 174,000 followers on that ill-fated sheet pile of
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a site known as Twitter.
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When we had this conversation, we did a via video and I allowed him to stream it very
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magnanimously of me.
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I must say to his hundreds of thousands of subscribers, and this conversation that you're
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about to hear or see when he posted on his YouTube as at the time of recording now has
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210,000 views and 698 comments for some of them such as this one.
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It's amazing how good a conversation can be when Destiny decides to talk to someone
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who doesn't have a mental disorder.
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So, you know, that's a low bar, but I'll take it, it's a complement of sorts.
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So suffice it to say, I'm talking to somebody who has a large enough audience that this
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conversation you're about to hear has a larger audience on his platform than it's likely
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to online.
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He's a fascinating guy.
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He now, his YouTube is basically full of videos that say things like Destiny gets dogpiled
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in heated debate or Andrew Tate Defender flips after secret convo leaks or indeed ABC
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radio host makes Destiny hesitate, comma, fact checks him live, no prizes for guessing
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which ABC radio host that is.
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Nonetheless, I hope you find this stimulating, the one and only, Omni Liberal, aka Destiny,
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aka Steven Bonnell.
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Yeah, what's up, what are we doing, what are we doing, what are we chatting about?
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Why are you even here?
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Well, because I liked you on Twitter and then I was like, this cat's interesting, so
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as you probably talked to him, are you feeling more or less drawn to having political debates
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these days?
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Firstly, I just want to say, the biggest red flag I've ever heard in my entire life
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is somebody likes maybe heavier on Twitter, that's probably where I'm the most on
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hands.
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Well, actually, I'm burying the lead a little bit because I also wanted to talk about
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whether or not that's getting worse, whether or not your behavior on Twitter is following
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the same trajectory as everything on Twitter and just becoming more and more winnowed into
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like a silo of your relevance.
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Okay, and then the second part was, do I prefer to talk about politics?
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I mean, it really depends on what's topical, like sometimes there are fun things going
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on politically to talk about other times, we're talking about trans issues for 12 or 13
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years in a row, it feels like, so I mean, really just depends on the, depends on the
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issue.
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You don't feel more, you don't feel it's a moral, less constructive pursuit at the moment
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than it was?
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Um, is it a more or less constructive pursuit?
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It's always constructive, but it's hard to see the constructiveness and all the chaos.
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Like I think you're always doing good by having a conversation, but obviously with all
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of the the noise and the chaos of political discourse, it's hard to see that sometimes.
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But like I get emails from people, I see posts sometimes for people saying, I like, oh,
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I used to believe this and I don't believe this or, oh, I'm still right leaning, but
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I'm not as far right leaning or, you know, I thought this conspiracy was true and I don't
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so yeah, I try to look for that.
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And when you say you're always doing good in having a conversation by you there, do you
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mean you or does you do mean one?
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Like is it, is it good when Ben Shapiro is doing a slapdown, take down of somebody, some
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hopeless workster who can't fight back or do you mean you personally?
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I mean, it's good for him, right?
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I mean, it's good when one, whenever one's voice is being heard, that's probably generally
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a good thing.
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As long as one isn't making a buffoon of him or herself, yeah, or themself.
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Right.
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But what if you're making a buffoon of somebody else?
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Yeah.
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Then it probably, people like to watch people, trash other people, makes people, is that
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the same as good though?
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Is that the fact that people like it, the same as being constructive?
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Well, not necessarily, that's why I said good, I'm using good in a very relative sense.
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When I say good here, I mean good with respect to building one's platform.
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Right.
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So if your goal is to build a platform, oftentimes in political debate or any kind of debate,
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it one usually looks good trashing the opposition.
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So that could be a pro-lifer making a killer argument that shuts down an immoral pro-choicer
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or it might be a pro-vaccinated guy shutting down an anti-vax guy, it might be Ben Shapiro
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dumping on college students, it might be me talking to people to change my mind event
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like it could be anything.
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I think generally people like to see their guy win and they'd like to see the opposition
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look dumb or get crushed.
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It is that leader stuff, that style of conversation.
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World War I or World War II, I guess.
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We've had both of those, we're looking for the third and fourth now, third and fourth,
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third and final maybe.
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Like you know what I'm getting at?
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So here's what I'm getting at.
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I feel and many of my colleagues feel a certain level of exhaustion and like alienation
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from the initial project of winning hearts and minds through having smackdown arguments
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with people and owning them and a certain weariness about the whole project.
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And certainly throughout COVID, I feel like colleagues of mine have gone off the rails
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in one direction or another.
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I'm not including you in that, but COVID may have enough of them.
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Absolutely, crazy, but yeah.
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I mean, man, you know, I went on Joe Rogan's show and called Tim Pool a dumb dumb and
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then I had to go off Twitter for about six weeks because you just see what humanity
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is like when you call Tim Pool a dumb dumb, right?
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I mean, this is not a necessarily constructive way of ascertaining whether or not in fact
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Tim Pool is a dumb dumb to just be smacking each other back and forth over the head about
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it.
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So this mission that I have of sort of constructing as many intelligent arguments with
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as many people as possible, hearing them, meeting them where they are, being as generous
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as possible to the other side, steel manning other arguments, trying to grow towards a shared
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reality and a common truth can feel like an increasingly fruitless pursuit when the
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main cliques and the main laws come from caricaturing the other side, finding the weakest
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possible person who can articulate that side and then smacking them down.
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I think that there are, firstly, there's probably a time and a place for everything.
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There can always be, there probably is a time where you need to see somebody get shut
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down really hard and it is satisfying and they've completely and totally earned it, right?
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Some crazy bigoted person, some crazy evil person, ever watching a person get shut down,
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really hardcore, might be a good feeling.
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There are probably other times where being more educational is good.
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There's probably times where being more empathetic or understanding can be good.
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Right now, the major divide that I see in the world is that people are trapped in these
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echo chambers that tend to reinforce internal voices and then shun or discourage the pursuit
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of external voices.
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So all of the epistemic truths are centered on just a couple voices and then all the other
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forms of knowledge are basically shunned.
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And for me, I found that when somebody is in an echo chamber, oftentimes leaning into
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them in an aggressive manner just reinforces their point of view, right?
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There's like a thing that happens.
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Like imagine you're in a relationship with somebody and you know, you say to your girlfriend,
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like, hey, I just want you to know you fucked up today and let me tell you why that conversation
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is never going well, right?
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That comment where like when you start with basically when you start off in an aggressive
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tone, somebody's brain will instantly flip a switch and now they're in kind of like
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character defense mode.
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They're not going to listen to anything you say because now you're attacking them personally
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or feels like a character attack.
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So I found that the best way to kind of penetrate into other worlds, other kind of echo chambers
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is to try to avoid the really aggressive and dominating tone and be more like listen.
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I understand you've got problems.
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I know what your issues are, but like maybe I can provide like a little bit more of a
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reasonable solution than you guys who literally want to tie angriest yourself and germ off
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clothes, you know?
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And so what's driving the echo chamberification of the conversation?
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I mean, I don't have a satisfying answer for that yet.
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I know there's a lot of great things.
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So it's a lot of things.
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I think that it's just a lot of things, fuck, I should I should put together like a presentation
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for so many different ideas in my mind, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
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I'm sorry.
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There's a lot as well.
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Yeah, so one has to do with a one has to do with kind of like a bubble effect when one
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is trapped in a bubble and bubbles can appear naturally, right?
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You have a certain amount of friends that all kind of believe similar things.
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You go on Facebook or Twitter and because you follow them, you tend to see certain things.
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So you create kind of this like epistemic bubble where you just see certain types of
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news and that's it, you know, and people in that world are pretty easy to kind of break
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out of that world.
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So many might think, oh my god, like I think that I think that Kyle written house, you
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know, was a murderer.
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He when you shot 50 people and he loved a lot and that's just because they've only seen
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one type of news for that type of person.
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You can go to them and you say, hey, well, look at this and then you show them something
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different.
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I like, okay, maybe I'll change my mind, but there's like been a more intensification
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of that where people are, it's not just that they see one type of media.
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It's now that people are showing them one type of media, they're also actively discrediting
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other types of media as well.
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This more hardcore, this more pernicious effect is causing people to not trust any sort
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of external sources.
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So people are becoming in almost like a cult fashion addicted to or reliant on one or
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two like epistemic sources for truth and everything else is just like total garbage.
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So if, for instance, so if you believe in, I'll say like Tim Poole or Alex Jones or
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any of these other kind of like alternative media outlets, because you believe them,
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and because you follow them almost by virtue of that, you also necessarily distrust everything
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any government agency has to say.
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So you get kind of captured into this weird world where it's like, okay, how do you feel
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about say vaccines?
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Well, here's what I heard from Joe Rogan show.
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Here's what I heard from Tim Poole.
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Here's what I heard from Alex Jones.
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And then it's like, okay, well, what about this, this or this?
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But all of the evidence you show comes from like academic journals or government institutions
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or medical agencies.
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Well, I don't trust those because I know that they're captured.
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Well, so yeah.
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So I have a whole bunch of other experts over here who I have a whole bunch of other
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people with PhDs, right?
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I mean, you can always, there are enough PhDs in the world that you're going to be able
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to find someone to reinforce.
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At least what a crazy opinion.
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So you know, the credibility argument sort of, or the argument from authority goes out
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the window when there are a whole bunch of people pushing and amplifying the tiny minority
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of experts who disagree with the mainstream point of view.
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I mean, when I hear you say that, I can't help but think that where this chamber or this
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like echo chamber is a function of algorithms, which I mean, there's this cliche about social
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media that like it only shows you things that you already agree with, which is nonsense,
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of course.
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I see lots of stuff on social media that I don't agree with.
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But the stuff that I see that I don't agree with is stuff that is maximally designed to
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reinforce the fact that it's stupid or that it aggravates me, right?
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So you see charitable versions of things you agree with and uncharitable versions of things
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that you don't agree with.
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So it either, it either makes you feel better about prejudices that you already have or assumptions
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that you already have and better about hating the things that you hate because you're only
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saying, when you're talking about, I don't know, transgender people or let's not even
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pick on trans people.
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Let's just say like a drag queen story hour, instead of seeing people dressed up as clowns
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reading to children, you see the one viral example of the dude with gigantic fake breasts
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twerking in front of five year olds.
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And that's the one that the algorithm chooses to propagate because that's the one that people
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click and like and comment and get outraged about.
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So I don't know how to get out of that Chinese finger trap.
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How do we?
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Yeah, that's it's it's a really, really hard one.
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I don't have satisfying answers to any of these questions.
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I'm aware of all of it, but I don't know how to make other people aware of it.
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I'll start quoting the Scott Alexander articles.
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If there's a one I talk about a lot of you heard of like the Chinese bank robber fallacy
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not nervous.
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Yeah, but basically the idea that like I'm actually with 1000 new Chinese bank robbers
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every single day.
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Does I mean that Chinese people are more likely to rob banks than anybody else?
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And you know, intuitively we want to say yes, but the reality is there are so many Chinese
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people a thousand a day might not even come close to the per capita rates that any individual
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ethnic group might rob stores, you know, and it's that that that thing carries over for
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every other thing in society, right?
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If I can show you one brutal killing every single week where a cop kills an unarmed black
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person, right?
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Is that the end of the world?
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Does that mean that our whole system is corrupt?
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Well, maybe, but like people don't even know how many cops are in this country.
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They don't know how many black people in this country.
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They don't know how many police interactions happen.
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But even without knowing that people are still keen to make a big judgment on how good
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bad things are, however, how good or bad things are are absolutely a function of how many
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times an event occurs, you know, so, you know, like if my child goes hungry one night because
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you forget to feed your child, I mean, that's a horrible thing, of course, but if that happens
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like half the times they're with you, there's a huge difference between these two, you
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know, and it also depends whether it depends whether or not the cherry picking is also reinforcing
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a preexisting narrative that the person has, right?
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There is no narrative of Chinese people robbing banks for us to feel affirmed by when we
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see cherry picked evidence of that.
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There is, however, among the black community narrative of, with justification, I should
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add, a narrative of police shooting them, maybe not to the extent that has become, you
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know, understood widespread when you're actually digging to the numbers, but they weren't making
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this up.
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And similarly, if you're on the right and you have a narrative that gay people are trying
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to convert your children and you see gay pride rally where people are saying, as I did
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the other day, we're here, we're queer, we're coming for your kids.
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That's what the gay people were chanting.
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Now, I'm married to a guy and I can say I've never been to a pride rally where you were
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chanting, we're coming for your kids, but it reinforces a preexisting narrative, right?
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I mean, if they were chanting, we're here, we're queer, and we want to kill all the octopuses
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in the ocean.
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It wouldn't go viral because everyone would be like, hang on, I didn't know that gay people
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want to kill octopuses, but they do know that gay people are trying to convert their kids
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into being fags.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, yeah.
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It's a challenging one.
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And then the people that are hunting for this information aren't even genuinely trying
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to get an idea of what's going on.
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They just have, like you said, there's like a preconceived notion and you can probably
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find any data point you want to fit any argument you want to make.
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I think this is called, it's like illusory pattern perception or something or where basically
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like if you're looking for patterns, you can basically invent any pattern because it's
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at least in my country, there's some 330, 340 million people.
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I can find you cases of anything.
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You know, there was a guy that's in Scott Alexander guy wrote a compelling like three
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paragraphs about how cardiologists in the United States are some of the worst people in
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the world.
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And it's because he, you know, he quotes like 15 or 20 different cases.
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And it's like, well, they seem pretty bad.
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But it's like, is that actually more than any other group of people, you know, keep in
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mind that humans are keen to recognize patterns and we'll do it after two or three encounters.
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Somebody telling you something like, oh, I don't like Indian people, like they're horrible.
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They've probably had like one or two bad experiences than any person.
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And that's enough for people to make an entire, you know, sweeping generalization of everybody
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and people don't realize that all the time.
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That's right.
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And I mean, this is one of the reasons why people who are not in very diverse communities
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can be more certain about how suspicious minorities are than people who live amongst
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them.
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You know, it's like, it's always the pastor in Alabama who's quite certain about the way
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that Muslims behave.
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It's not the people who live in Queens around lots and lots of Muslims.
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True.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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There's that saying that like racism doesn't usually survive first contact that like if
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you're sufficiently socializing with groups of people, like it's hard to maintain a lot
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of stereotypical beliefs because yeah, there are a lot of different types of people.
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Yeah.
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Something real quick on what you were saying before about like, what do you do for people?
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Do you know, have you ever heard of Peter Boghoseon?
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Yeah.
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I had him on the show.
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Yeah.
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He has a really interesting set of questions that I asked sometimes, like asking for instance
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somebody like, how much conviction do you have about a certain idea and, you know, usually
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the people will say like, ah, you know, nine or ten, I'm very, have a high conviction
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about this.
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And then you ask them like a certain number of questions like, well, how often does this
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thing happen?
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It's like, well, I don't know, like how, like how many bad drag queen activities are there
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in the United States?
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It's like, well, I saw three and lives of tickets.
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Okay.
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How long has it been going on for?
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Yeah.
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How many thousands of these?
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Right.
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Then, yeah, eventually I think people kind of really, ah, fuck it.
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Okay.
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Well, you know, maybe I shouldn't just make my whole world be on what I sent it to.
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Totally.
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And even self-proclaimed experts do this.
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I heard, who's the anti-trans guy Matt Walsh or, well, I always get Matt Walsh, Matt
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Walsh.
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Not an expert though, but yeah, Walsh is indeed a member of the daily wear, not an expert,
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but claims to be.
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I mean, I don't know if he claims to be.
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He certainly, certainly presents himself as a, you know, he's made a documentary about
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it.
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He's written books about it.
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He went on Joe Rogan and Joe was like, how many children have undergone this, this
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procedure of, you know, under the age of 12, getting irreversible treatments?
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And he was like, oh, it had to be in, I don't know what figuring it was.
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Yeah.
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I think he said millions, right?
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Do you know?
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He did say millions.
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And Joe's like, Jamie, look this up.
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And Jamie's like, I think it's 1,000.
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Yeah.
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It was something in the country of 330 million people.
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And you're like, man, you don't even know, you're out by, by orders of magnitude, you're
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out by thousands of times.
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Multiple orders of magnitude.
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Yeah.
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Multiple orders of magnitude.
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Yeah.
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The number ended up being like 5,000 over five years, I think, we're like so far off four,
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three or four orders of magnitude are Jesus, yeah.
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Who's better at persuasion than the left or the right at this point?
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There are so many types of ways to persuade people.
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I think both the left and the right can be persuasive, but I think it's going to come
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down to the topic and it's going to come down to who's going to argue.
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I don't know if I would ever broadly say, like, I think there are some arguments that the
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left is incredibly compellingly persuasive on.
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Like stuff related to healthcare, it's really hard to argue against like people dying because
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they can't afford proper insulin or they can't afford healthcare in the United States.
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And then people on the right, it's hard to argue against the idea that like, should your
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whole life be destroyed because you, you know, tweeted something offensive 10 years ago?
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Or should there be like kind of weird people talking to your kids about weird things?
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Like, some of these things are big me and comfortable as a father.
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So yeah, I think, but then when the left is arguing that we should be able to have abortions
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up to nine months, I don't think a lot of people are feeling that.
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When the right is saying, you know, if you want to have like a, you know, a murder X-3X-3000
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gun, you know, 5,000 shooting bullets into wherever with no restrictions at all, you know,
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a lot of people like, do you really need that right?
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That's probably not compelling either.
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I think it really depends on the argument and who's making it on which side is compelling
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for what?
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I mean, that's a substantive sort of climb, I suppose, about the nature of the particular
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case and it also raises the question of what even is the left and what even is the
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right at this point?
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Because I know many, many leftists who are all unreconstructed, like 1970s Marxists who
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don't, who have no truck for workism.
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So, but I mean, in terms of rhetoric, it strikes me that the right is better at caricaturing
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the left than the left is at caricaturing the right.
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And I'm not sure if that is a consequence of tactics or a consequence of the left leaving
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itself more vulnerable by providing ammunition that the right can then misuse, or if it's
20:28
because people give the right to pass, because they think that they're supposed to be
20:31
usholes anyway.
20:32
I don't know.
20:33
I don't know.
20:34
I mean, I feel like it probably depends on what type of media you consume.
20:37
Like there is a caricature of a right-leaning person, it's just like a mega hat wearing,
20:40
gun-toting, you know, uneducated, white trash idiot that the left likes to perpetuate,
20:44
you know.
20:45
And then there's characters that the right likes to perpetuate as well.
20:49
As for who does it better, I feel like it would be really hard to quantify.
20:51
I'm not sure.
20:52
Yeah, I don't know.
20:53
So, what are we talking about when we talk about the left?
20:55
We, is the word woke anything more than a cliche at this point?
20:58
What does it mean for you?
21:00
Woke, to me, is like the next evolution of like the astray w basically.
21:04
People that are maybe hyper conscientious around like identity politics and class politics
21:07
in a way that goes probably farther than what it should.
21:10
Identity politics and class politics?
21:12
Yeah.
21:13
I mean, that's interesting, because I kind of think of those two things as being separate
21:18
strands of the left.
21:19
And some of the people who I know who are the most agitated about class are more skeptical
21:24
of the identity component of, you know, thinking that minorities should be elevated aggressively
21:32
that equity is a different thing from equality, that the liberalism is old fashioned, that
21:38
the kind of Obama, Martin Luther King vision of a race-blind America is naive.
21:44
And then the people who are on that bandwagon strike me as being less concerned actually
21:47
about class and less concerned about genuine economic equality, which arguably could win
21:53
the more elections if they were more of a Bernie Sanders type of leftist than an identitarian
21:58
type of leftist.
21:59
And one of the critiques, I think one of the valid critiques of the left at the moment
22:03
of wokeness or social justice leftists is that they don't spend enough time talking
22:07
to the working, the working man, the working middle.
22:12
Mm-hmm.
22:13
I mean, like, it really depends, like depending on how far left you go, like it gets woke
22:17
and then unwoke and woke and then unwoke.
22:20
Like if you don't go so far left, some people will say things like class is the only thing
22:23
that matters and who cares about race, and then if you go further left, you get people
22:26
who say, like, oh, no, we need to be like very conscientious about like MLK and all this
22:29
stuff.
22:30
And then if you go further than that, then some people are literally falling like actually
22:32
MLK was a loser and we need to have like a civil war or we need to go full on segregation
22:36
as black people need black spaces and, you know, get them away from, like, you know,
22:39
I mean, that is becoming a mainstream, that is becoming the mainstream center of gravity
22:44
on the left, I would say, and the idea that it's naive to assume that we will ever get
22:47
beyond race.
22:48
I mean, it's, here's the major division that I'm seeing more today because dividing
22:54
on VIP electorate, right, it's kind of hard.
22:56
I think that the main division I'm seeing today is like a, it's like an establishment
23:00
and anti-establishment narrative, and these are like the two trends that are running
23:03
large in both parties that in the, in the left, you've got like the establishment Democrats
23:08
and then you've got kind of like the anti-establishment progressives.
23:10
Now, politically, I think that the establishment has like 90 to 95% capture and the democratic
23:16
establishment and the anti-establishment people have like five to 10%.
23:21
But they're very, very, very loud in schools on Twitter and protests.
23:24
If you go to the right, I think it's almost like 60, 40 with 60% being anti-establishment.
23:30
These are like the Trump supporters.
23:31
They don't care about government.
23:32
They don't care about the Republican party.
23:33
They barely care about the country.
23:34
They just will follow Trump wherever.
23:36
And then 40% are more kind of like pro-establishment, like Republican establishment people.
23:40
But I feel like that's where the big divides are to try to explain what people are thinking
23:43
about today.
23:44
Has that happened?
23:45
Sorry.
23:46
I'm finished with it.
23:47
I was going to say like I, like sometimes I go to events.
23:48
I remember that I went to an event before where people always pat themselves on the black
23:52
back where they're like, oh, look at how diverse our audience is, you know, and I think
23:54
I was at some conference in New York and they were like, oh, like, and like half the audience
23:57
was left and half the audience was right.
23:59
It's like, wow, look how diverse we're.
24:00
And then I don't remember if I asked the audience for his hands, but I think I asked the question
24:03
to like, well, how many people who are here are like opposed to like the CDC or the FDA?
24:09
How many of you guys like don't trust the government?
24:10
And that's like 95% of people are like in New York.
24:13
Of course, I don't trust it.
24:14
Right?
24:15
So even though people seem to be a diverse group of people from the left and right, they
24:17
all have very common sentiment about not trusting the government, not trusting any establishment
24:21
parties.
24:22
Right.
24:23
Yes.
24:24
That is there is this weird horseshoe.
24:25
And that's why I don't even know, yeah, really what left or right mean.
24:27
I mean, Tim, you know, Tim pulls a good example.
24:29
Jimmy Dora is another one who was a total dipshit.
24:33
But to me, when I was on the young Turks years ago, a number of times, and I was, I think
24:39
I was pushing back in defensive Hillary Clinton on something, and he was like saying that
24:44
she was a child eating, you know, monster, and I was just saying like, she's just a perfectly
24:48
normal kind of, you know, her corruption falls well within the bounds of normal political
24:55
conduct.
24:56
And anyway, he was quite offensive and took me down.
24:59
And now it seems like Jimmy Dora for people who don't know, he's a comedian who is so far
25:04
left that now he's, what's he doing now?
25:05
I saw you tweeting about something that Jimmy said that was wild.
25:10
He wanted to say that I think Biden is more of a fascist than Trump, but Jimmy Dora is
25:15
one of those types of just, he's just anti-establishment.
25:18
If I can find anything the government says or any government body says, he says the exact
25:22
opposite.
25:23
Yeah.
25:24
Yeah.
25:25
Yeah.
25:26
So what happened?
25:27
I mean, because it's not just him, it's not just Temple, there's a whole cast of characters
25:32
who started out being self-proclaimed fighters for economic justice and against the man,
25:38
and have now become tools of some kind of, I don't know, what is it?
25:45
Collective of hyperparinoid shitheads on social media where that's true.
25:51
Yeah, I don't know.
25:53
Like, I'd heard this said back six or seven years ago that populism runs into this problem
25:58
where people try it and then once you realize that it doesn't work, like you'll get a
26:04
populacy to elected and then nothing ends up like working out because obviously populist
26:09
will promise you the sky and deliver you nothing.
26:12
That once those movements break apart, like everybody just kind of is like aimless and
26:15
lost.
26:16
And I think you saw it happen with, not to attack Bernie Sanders because I think he's
26:19
respectful, but you saw it happen kind of, I think with the Bernie Sanders movement.
26:22
A lot of big progressives started to come up through that and then once Bernie Sanders
26:25
was gone, that movement fell into utter chaos and all of those people are like, in my opinion,
26:30
horrible people now.
26:31
So like Rihanna Joy-Grey is a horrible person, Jimmy Dora is a fucking horrible person.
26:35
All of these people that were like part of this big progressive movement, yeah, we're
26:38
just like not good people.
26:40
And then to be fair, like for Trump, his coalition fell apart completely too, right?
26:43
Like he fired or hated every single X staff, every single X, his lawyers and everything
26:47
that worked with him as well, so yeah, so if I just don't think those movements maintain
26:50
a lot of cohesion.
26:52
And that populist strain of the right, that anti-authoritarian, anti-establishment kind
26:57
of strain of the right that you're talking about where they just basically have a fundamental
27:00
mistrust of the organs of power, but they don't have a huge ideology beyond that.
27:05
What's causing that?
27:06
You know, I mean, one could have been forgiven for thinking that that was a Trump-generated
27:10
phenomenon, but you know, now DeSantis is popular.
27:13
Does it outlive this moment?
27:15
It's probably a mixture of a few things, Republicans by nature are less trustworthy of the government
27:20
than Democrats are, so that plays into it a little bit.
27:23
Trump was very not trustworthy of the government.
27:25
So obviously he amplified that a lot, and they probably just fed into each other.
27:32
Yeah.
27:33
Yeah.
27:34
I mean, like, I wonder whether or not America is entering a phase which some European countries
27:39
have had where it's just going to have this significant minority of people who are right-wing
27:44
populists like France has Le Pen, and you know, there are just these wings of conservatism
27:50
that aren't conservative, that are actually quite left-wing on economic issues, their sort
27:55
of pro-union, their like pro-worker, their anti-free trade, their pro-giving money to people,
28:02
but they're also highly energized about being xenophobic and identitarian towards the
28:08
white majority.
28:09
Yeah.
28:10
I don't know if this existed real life, but online we used to call these people third
28:13
positioners.
28:14
They were kind of sort of like the online Nazis, but basically they're people that were
28:17
very fine with left-leaning economic programs, like they would be okay with socialized
28:21
healthcare, they'd be okay with strong unionization, big minimum wage.
28:25
They just didn't want like, you know, brown people to have any of it.
28:27
So they were like very big on racial stuff, they were very big on curbing or eliminating
28:32
non-white immigration, stuff like that.
28:34
Also it may not be fair, maybe with caricature saying that I want brown people to have any
28:38
of this stuff.
28:39
They would probably say they just don't want brown people to have more of it than a
28:42
race-blind policy.
28:43
Depending on how honest, how many drinks you get, I'm usually
28:45
going to say like, yeah, people want to immigrate here, they should be coming from Europe
28:48
and not from Mexico or most of the majority of countries or stuff like that.
28:52
Depends who the they are.
28:54
Anybody that supported Trump.
28:55
I mean Trump pretty avowedly said he wanted to ban most of them from immigrants in the
28:59
country.
29:00
He wanted to build a wall between us and Mexico.
29:01
He wanted to reduce Mexican.
29:02
Like, yeah, I mean, he said it all pretty avowedly, like I'm just taking on his word.
29:05
Right.
29:06
Right.
29:07
I mean, yeah, but you can't necessarily think that all of his voters agree with that.
29:10
You know, I do think that some people agree with it, but they all co-signed it.
29:13
Yeah.
29:14
They will tolerate it.
29:15
But then we tolerate a lot of things.
29:16
We speaking broadly of the left from Biden or whatever or of the Clintons that we wouldn't
29:21
endorse.
29:23
Yeah, I dude, my mom and dad are like big, I'm sorry, this is a whole topic for you.
29:34
My mom and dad are huge Trump-rider diphams, like they, like they will, like I've asked
29:38
my parents if DeSantis was running a Trump one, like third party, would they, would they
29:42
follow Trump?
29:43
They said they'd follow Trump off the end of the earth, like not in those words, but basically
29:45
the same thing.
29:46
Yeah.
29:47
And how did I feel about the criticisms that you make of Trump?
29:53
My parents and I fought all the time, but we are don't agree on anything politically,
29:55
so it's in one year out the other, yeah.
29:57
Right.
29:58
Right.
29:59
And when you make an argument like the one you just made, that like, yeah, you might disagree
30:02
with him about X, Y, Z, but you're co-signing it, what do they say?
30:11
I, the straight thing is, like my mom is not a hateful person at all, so she'll always
30:18
have like a very positive framing for everything.
30:21
So when it comes to like banning Muslims from the country, she'll say like, well, Stevie,
30:25
Trump just wanted to ban these people because he wanted to find out what was going on,
30:28
because he was worried about terrorists in our country, and we don't have terrorist
30:31
attacks, like 9-11, and blah, blah, blah, like, or for, yeah, her positions on Mexico
30:37
are totally incoherent, because my family, my mom is Cuban, and we have a decent truck
30:41
of family that came here illegally or escaped from Cuba to come here.
30:45
And but my mom will say like, well, those people are fleeing for a better life, and they're
30:48
trying to flee, you know, communist fiddle Castro, and I guess now it's brother Raul, and
30:51
we should make a space for them.
30:52
But when it comes to Mexicans doing it, it's like, well, they should stay in their own
30:55
country, and they should try to figure out their own problems.
30:57
So, yeah, I don't know.
30:58
Her positions are that are wholly incoherent.
30:59
I've tried to like push on these before, but usually it just ends up in a screaming
31:02
at each other.
31:03
It's so funny.
31:04
It's so funny to hear that, because my grandparents in law are Cuban refugees to the United States
31:09
as well, and are exactly the same.
31:11
Trump supporting, you know, flag waving, kind of, maga.
31:15
Absolutely, yeah.
31:16
It's a fun thing.
31:17
I remember when...
31:18
Wait, you've been in Australia all I've heard?
31:20
No, I moved to the States.
31:22
I spent most of my professional life in New York City, and I came back to you five years
31:25
ago, and when I had kids, so I was in New York for 12 years.
31:31
Gotcha.
31:32
Do you remember that Ellie and Gonzalez stuff?
31:34
Oh, yeah.
31:35
Yeah, that was a...
31:36
That was like a fucking...
31:37
Just explain one of the other people who for him that was before their time.
31:41
Oh, man, now I don't even trust my recollection, because I lived in such a Republican
31:45
household.
31:46
This is what I call happening at the time.
31:47
I'll try to touch you in my personal life.
31:49
Yeah, Jesus.
31:50
This is what I remember happening was I believe Ellie and Gonzalez was a child who was trying
31:54
to flee to the United States, and I believe he was on a raft or something with his mom
31:57
and other Cuban immigrants.
31:59
This is the George W. Bush administration, probably, right?
32:02
Or maybe it was a bomber in already.
32:05
It was Bill Clinton.
32:06
Get out.
32:08
Bill Clinton.
32:09
Yeah, that's why people were...
32:10
I'm almost positive.
32:11
It was.
32:12
I think it was Bill Clinton.
32:13
I'm crazy.
32:14
I'll Google the fact check.
32:15
Oh, well, you got a fact check.
32:16
You got a fact check.
32:17
Yeah, it's a story.
32:18
It must have been Bill Clinton.
32:19
There's no way, because my mom...
32:20
I don't think my mom would have been a Bush fan if it was over this.
32:21
It must have been Bill Clinton.
32:25
Yeah, Ellie and Gonzalez was on his way here.
32:29
The raft crashed or something got destroyed somehow, and I believe his mom and other people
32:34
on the journey died.
32:35
Yes.
32:36
I think in the United States, we have a policy that if you make it to US soil, we'll keep
32:38
you.
32:39
So, Ellie and Gonzalez got to US soil.
32:41
Specifically from Cuba.
32:42
Specifically from Cuba.
32:43
Yeah, specifically from Cuba.
32:44
Specifically from Cuba.
32:45
Yeah, that's a cold war.
32:46
Yeah.
32:47
So, he made it here, but his father and Cuba wanted him back.
32:50
Now, my mom was telling me that if they get him back, they're going to torture him and
32:54
do all sorts of horrible things to him, because that's all they do in Cuba, if it'll
32:57
cast her evil, blah, blah, blah.
32:58
And in the United States, it was like an international incident.
33:01
It was a horrible thing.
33:02
I believe it was Bill Clinton that finally said we're going to send him back.
33:06
And my mom was just like, man, you already have to keep in mind.
33:08
I feel like the Bay of Pigs and everything too for Cubans.
33:10
Like, Cubans already hate the left in the United States, and that was just like a whole
33:14
other thing that just further proved to my parents that like, yeah, like these Democrats,
33:18
they hate Cubans, and they hate people that are trying to escape communism, because they're
33:21
all secret commies and blah, blah, blah.
33:23
So yeah, especially like Russian volleyball, like cheering her on and everything, you know,
33:26
you're right.
33:27
It was 1999.
33:28
So in November of 1999, wow, that's amazing.
33:31
So I had no, I must have been following this from Australia, because I was still at
33:36
university, drowned, his mother drowned.
33:43
He was five, and he was found nestled in a tube floating at sea three miles from Fort
33:48
Lauderdale, Fisherman found him, hand him over to the coast guard, and yeah, that's
33:54
right.
33:55
The policy is called the Wet Feet Dry Feet, obviously.
33:57
Yeah.
33:58
If you've got dry feet, in other words, if you touch the land, then you're American, right?
34:02
From Cuba.
34:03
But he hadn't.
34:04
So then there was this argument about, does he stay in the United States, or does he not,
34:08
does he get sent back to Cuba, and he got sent back to Cuba, is that right?
34:14
Yeah.
34:15
Okay.
34:16
He'll be pleased to know he's just been nominated for a seat in the National Assembly
34:19
of People's Power.
34:21
So your parents will be delighted, I guess, become of him.
34:24
She probably thinks that that's a cloner body double, I don't think that, yeah.
34:29
How did you come to be debating Milo Ianopoulos, by the way?
34:35
Which time was that the first time I talked to him?
34:37
I think he, I mean, he's like fallen off completely, so he's just like looking for whoever
34:42
will have him.
34:43
Right.
34:44
A group of college kids that host debates at different colleges, an organization called
34:48
um, something America, oh man, I hope, can somebody say this in chat?
34:52
I think it's uncensored America.
34:53
Um, Sean is one of the heads of that.
34:55
He got Milo Ianopoulos and me to a greater debate, and we did that debate there.
34:59
Yeah.
35:00
Right.
35:01
Okay.
35:02
How was that?
35:03
Uh, horrible.
35:04
Have you, did you watch any of it?
35:05
I watched whatever the short clip that you put on YouTube was, I want to go back and
35:07
watch the whole thing.
35:08
It's not worth it.
35:09
Yeah.
35:10
I'm trying to do personal attacks the whole time and being coked out of his head, um,
35:14
maybe I was a drug addict among other things.
35:16
That's not even his worst quality.
35:17
So yeah, he's just a horrible person.
35:19
Yeah.
35:20
Was it worth doing?
35:22
Um, whether or not something's worth it is, I don't like to judge that necessarily in
35:28
retro's spec.
35:29
I mean, in retrospectively, I mean, no, I, I said afterwards that I'm never going to
35:32
do anything with like I again, because of how absolutely insane he is.
35:35
Um, but I mean, like the kids want me to do it, I try to be cool with like the organizations
35:39
and invite me.
35:40
Yeah, I mean, like I probably would do it, but if somebody crosses certain lines, I
35:44
won't associate with that person again, generally, uh, is it good for your head?
35:48
Um, yeah, I can do, I've been streaming and doing stuff for like 13 years.
35:54
So I mean, I can handle any type of online stuff that doesn't bother me, but unfortunately
35:58
I have to think of like, how does it affect other people?
35:59
What are the objects?
36:00
You know, how does it make my movement look?
36:01
How does it make me look?
36:02
So there's other things I want to keep in mind too, but yeah, what is your movement?
36:07
Um, I, I mean, I jokingly we call ourselves omnilibrals, because that seems to be the
36:11
like the most pretentious prefix I could put on to liberal and the neoliberal thing
36:14
was already taken.
36:15
But, um, I don't know, like I'm, I'm a pretty snatched liberal.
36:18
I think most of my values are progressive, but like I'm very much rooted in like, what
36:21
is the research to say?
36:22
What are the facts on the ground?
36:23
Like let's make the best decisions for everybody.
36:25
Don't get so attached to processes like an outcomes and, um, yeah, like a really data-driven
36:31
approach towards like affecting some morally good thing, you know?
36:36
How did you come to stream games full, full time in the first place?
36:39
Long story, but basically I was pretty funny, entertaining person playing video games
36:44
outside my classrooms in high school.
36:46
Um, a few years later there was like a very new technology called streaming, a friend
36:49
turned me on to it as like you should try this, maybe be funny.
36:52
And I did that and then, yeah, ever since then I started streaming video games, became
36:55
a semi-pro StarGov player and then got into politics in 2016.
36:59
How did that happen?
37:01
Um, Trump, well, I've always been like interested in a lot of things.
37:05
I've always been like relatively politically active.
37:07
I've got a lot of opinions about stuff like even as a gamer, I was super opinionated
37:10
about things and we've talked about a lot of things.
37:11
And then when Trump started, I was like, man, there's a lot of horrible conversations.
37:14
Maybe we could like make these a little better.
37:16
So I kind of jumped in and contributed to the noise, I guess.
37:19
So at what point do you realize that you're more than, well, are you more, more political
37:25
than a gamer?
37:26
Yeah, I would say so, yeah.
37:28
When does that happen?
37:29
When does that conceptual switch get to?
37:32
It's probably 2016 the year I really start to get into it.
37:35
I realize there's like a lot of entertainment there.
37:37
There's a lot of, there's a big audience for it that hadn't been tapped before.
37:41
Where I started it on was, it was a platform called Twitch TV and nobody really did like
37:44
politics streaming.
37:45
It just wasn't really a thing.
37:47
So for about two years, I basically kind of spearheaded trying to do like politics as
37:51
like a live stream thing.
37:53
Sometimes Twitch wouldn't like me.
37:54
A lot of the people on the platform didn't like me because gamers were like very much anti-SJW.
37:57
They hated feminist and all that.
37:59
So like every person's chat I would go into is a bunch of people calling me, you know,
38:02
names, a fag and, you know, a woke loser, SGW, whatever, blah, blah, blah.
38:06
But eventually I kind of like carved out a space to where it's like, hey, like there's
38:09
a politics on Twitch, it's largely left leaning.
38:12
And yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of, there was an appetite for it, especially on
38:16
the left because up to that point, all of the online debater people were always right
38:20
leaning.
38:21
Like they kind of had like a, they had a domination or a, there's a word only where they
38:26
had a, where you have all of a thing.
38:28
I can't believe it.
38:29
They dominated it.
38:31
Monopoly.
38:32
Monopoly.
38:33
Yeah.
38:34
They had a monopoly on the like the facts over a feeling stuff.
38:35
So there was ever a person in a video where somebody was crying and another person was
38:39
like spewing facts.
38:40
It was always like a left leaning person and tears and a right leaning person, you
38:43
know, screaming.
38:44
So I was glad to fill the void on the other side there.
38:46
Why is that?
38:47
Why is this more the domain of the right?
38:48
Because I think you're right.
38:49
I think it's still a case, actually, that there are more people who do what the style
38:53
of thing that you do online streaming political debates who are on the right than on the
38:58
left.
39:01
I think I'm going to broadly appeal to, there's going to be a lot of reasons, but I'm going
39:04
to broadly appeal to the locus of control that the farther left you are, the more externalized
39:10
your situation is.
39:12
Like if you're on the left, chances are you're where you are because of other things.
39:16
And then on the right, I think that locus of control is more internal.
39:19
If you are where you are, it's because of what you've done.
39:21
And externalizing that locus of control probably leads you to on some levels positively.
39:26
It probably makes you a bit more empathetic, a little bit more conscientious of other
39:29
people, circumstances, but it also probably makes you more upset with things, more prone
39:33
to anger, more hopeless feeling.
39:35
And then on the right, you probably feel with an internal locus of control, you might
39:38
have a harder time seeing other people's perspectives or understanding why some people
39:42
don't succeed.
39:43
But you probably have a personal feeling of great empowerment.
39:45
You probably feel like you're more in control and in charge of your life.
39:49
And you can speak with more authority on topics if you don't necessarily know as much
39:52
about them, I would say.
39:53
Broadly speaking, I can say that's probably the reason.
39:56
There may also be a problem of there being more nuance in the positions that you're
39:59
trying to articulate than the ones that right wing people are trying to articulate.
40:02
So it's actually a harder to do.
40:04
Depends on how far left or right you go, but maybe, right?
40:07
I mean, you specifically, you're not very far left or right.
40:10
You know, I mean, I see you trying to tap dance and trying to weave the something that
40:15
I think I do as well, which is to try to weave the most reasonable possible articulation
40:20
of the point of view that you're presenting rather than caricaturing the other side.
40:23
And that requires a certain nimbleness and a kind of deafness that is probably tricky
40:28
to pull off than shouting at people and barking slogans.
40:32
Yeah.
40:33
Yeah.
40:34
Usually when I'm doing these arguments, I always try to give an example of like the left
40:36
and the right.
40:37
So it doesn't sound like I'm just like, Oh, like here's a problem that people have.
40:40
Right.
40:41
And it shows up when they're in favor of having guns and in favor of being pro-life and
40:44
in favor of capitalism.
40:45
Right?
40:46
And it sounds like, OK, well, you've basically gone to do some research to try to justify
40:50
why you hate a certain political side.
40:51
So the reality is we're all human and we all fall into these like cognitive traps.
40:55
Like one side isn't immune to it by any stretch of the imagination.
40:58
And so you mentioned Twitch and becoming did Twitch boot you off, by the way?
41:02
Yeah, they did.
41:03
For what?
41:04
I truly, to this day, I don't know.
41:07
I was fighting with a lot of trans people before I got booted off.
41:10
It might have been because I called some trans people on Twitter subhuman, but I don't
41:14
know because they haven't told me.
41:16
So it's hard for me to ever actually know, you think Twitch booted you off because of
41:19
you behavior on Twitter on a different platform?
41:23
No, no, no.
41:24
It was while I was streaming on Twitch, I called people on Twitter.
41:26
People that argue on Twitter are subhuman.
41:27
Oh, all right.
41:28
Oh, all right.
41:29
But all they did was when they seemed to be the banny mode, they just said it was for
41:31
hateful content.
41:32
So I don't truly, I can't truly know why I was booted off, you know.
41:35
Is there an inflation of hate?
41:37
I mean, of our definition of hate?
41:39
This is something you hear occasionally from the right that like the danger here is that
41:44
anytime you disagree about whether or not, you know, a person has to respect someone's
41:48
transgender pronouns or something like that.
41:50
It becomes codified as hate speech and all of a sudden.
41:53
Yeah.
41:54
There's definitely an inflation of hate for sure for what counts as like hate.
41:57
Yeah.
41:58
Absolutely, I think.
41:59
What's your response to that?
42:00
Absolutely.
42:01
Is there one?
42:02
I mean, it depends on the particular hate we're talking about, but like people need
42:05
to chill a lot and understand that there are like different positions that people can
42:09
reasonably have.
42:10
Yeah.
42:11
But they would say, they're always been hate speech positions and like, you know, part
42:15
of the march of progress is to redefine what constitutes hate speech, there are all kinds
42:20
of things that you can say that you could have said in the, well, even 80s, I was going
42:24
to say 50s, but let alone 1920s that today would be considered to be hate speech and rightly
42:29
so.
42:30
And so we have to kind of carve out the next generation of taboos.
42:33
Yeah.
42:34
I mean, but I can only have like MLK white moderate, you know, quotes thrown at me so
42:38
many times before it's like, yeah, I understand that you guys want to be more radical and whatever,
42:42
but like just because you pushed the boundaries in the past, doesn't mean every single
42:45
boundary you push in the future is necessarily going to be okay.
42:48
Like those boundaries in the past that were pushed, I believe they were generally pushed
42:51
with proper justification.
42:52
If people are gay and want to be together and not hurting other people, that's fine.
42:55
If you know, black people want to be able to go to the same schools and this is the white
42:58
people want to go to, that should probably be protected right.
43:01
Should you be able to identify as trans at 12 years old, just because MLK did the I have
43:05
a dream speech?
43:06
I don't know about that one, right?
43:08
It doesn't want to be available to 12 year olds just because, you know, the stone
43:12
rail rides happen for LGBT people, I don't know if that's the case, right?
43:15
Yeah, but doesn't it feel a bit convenient that the line weight, which you think is the
43:18
sensible line just happens to be the line of the culture that you are born into that was
43:23
the one that you were raised in?
43:26
Possibly, but there has to be better arguments than that.
43:29
It can't just be like, well, isn't it convenient then?
43:32
Because then we truly do fall down the slippery slope and descend into chaos where people
43:36
are like, oh, well, you know, black people weren't allowed to go to businesses yesterday
43:39
and today we're not allowed to have sex with cats.
43:41
So, you know, who's to say you're in the wrong and I'm not right?
43:44
Right.
43:45
That can't be.
43:46
Well, I'm not saying any argument, right?
43:47
It's got to be a suggestion.
43:48
I mean, I'm not sorry.
43:49
No, I'm just saying it's a reason to give one pause or to check yourself, right?
43:53
For sure.
43:54
I agree.
43:55
I mean, I always feel like this whenever we're talking to bring it back to healthcare,
43:58
for example.
43:59
I mean, during Obama, I had a lot of arguments with American conservatives who were like
44:02
deeply committed to the project of public education, you know, in public funding for the
44:07
military as it stood, but thought that it was ridiculous to have socialized medicine
44:11
and having grown up in a country where it's completely understood that everybody gets
44:14
free healthcare.
44:15
I was just like, you know, it's very convenient that you just happen to think that the
44:19
contours of government power should fall precisely where they fell when you were coming
44:23
of age.
44:24
And so I think there is a cultural component like that as well.
44:26
I'm not saying that it's, that it, you know, as I say, that it's a slam dunk, but it
44:30
is at any point in time, there is always the middle-aged person railing against the kids
44:37
these days who have their uppity demands about what the future ought to be and saying,
44:41
look, why can't we just have some common sense?
44:43
And common sense always just so conveniently happens to fall precisely where the contours
44:48
of the conversation were when they came of age.
44:51
Yeah.
44:52
I would never use that.
44:53
The common sense is like where we're on ironically saying common sense is where rational
44:56
thought goes to die because when somebody, you're right, when somebody appeals to common
45:00
sense, they're really, generally, they're just appealing to like the status quo, they're
45:03
like common sense guys, like this is wrong, right?
45:06
And really they're just looking for a consensus where they're at.
45:09
But no, I agree.
45:10
But like I said, I don't make a common sense argument.
45:11
Like if I'm arguing against certain ideas, if I'm fighting against trans people or if
45:14
I'm fighting against, I don't know, like, anti-healthcare people or whatever, like I'm generally
45:20
looking for arguments that are like, this is why I believe this thing to be true and
45:23
this is why I think this is like the better path to move forward.
45:25
I'm not trying to just like make an appeal to common sense generally, but I do agree
45:28
that there are some people who probably just want things to chill because they're not
45:31
comfortable, things moving as quickly as they are, you know?
45:33
Do you get attacked for not having standing in talking about certain subjects?
45:37
This is something that I bump into quite a lot, which is you shouldn't even be having
45:41
a conversation about whether or not to use transgender pronouns because you're not trans.
45:44
You shouldn't be having a conversation about whether or not the use of the phrase, the
45:48
N word is infantilizing to black people because you're not a black person and so on and
45:52
so forth.
45:56
I usually just act more racist or bigoted towards people that say that.
46:01
It's just, it's such a ridiculous, like if somebody tells me like you shouldn't have
46:05
this conversation because you're not a woman, then I would just say like, well, I'm a
46:08
misogynist and that's why I have this conversation or, you know, like you shouldn't, you know,
46:12
use this word in this conversation, I would say, well, I actually can't use this word
46:15
because I'm racist.
46:16
I like that.
46:17
Like those, yeah, the it pull arguments are so tired at this point, I just like, oh,
46:20
pull the plug here.
46:21
I'll just like, yeah, I am racist, like let's talk about it, like, because once you start
46:24
buying into the game of like, well, actually, even though I'm a guy, I think I should
46:28
be able to talk about it because it affects me and blah, blah, like I just like, no, it's
46:31
such a stupid, like all of us live in the society, all of us have to abide by the same rules.
46:35
And all of us at the end of the day are the ones supporting, you know, all of these rules,
46:38
like trans people don't get anywhere without cis people supporting them.
46:41
Women didn't get the right to vote because of a violent revolution against men.
46:44
They did it because a lot of men supported them.
46:45
Black people didn't get the right to enter our establishments if the United States establishments
46:49
because only black people did it because they did white people join them, right?
46:51
We have to form coalitions and build majority opinion and get all the people in society
46:55
involved in these arguments.
46:56
It's really stupid to say this class of people should only talk about this and nobody
47:00
else should be allowed to talk about that subject.
47:01
That's a really dumb argument in my opinion.
47:02
I mean, your problem also is that you don't have a minority to appeal to and claim discrimination
47:08
back against them.
47:09
I can always throw it back on that and say your anti-Semitism and homophobia is dripping
47:14
off you every time they accuse me of being bigoted because I occupy to small minority
47:19
classes.
47:20
You're just as straight as that.
47:21
Half Cuban.
47:22
So I am very Hispanic.
47:23
OK.
47:24
OK.
47:25
One is number one.
47:26
Yeah.
47:27
Buenos dias.
47:28
Come on.
47:29
Sus.
47:30
Lobbibliateca.
47:31
Secondly, I am bisexual.
47:32
So I get to be the LGBT as well.
47:34
OK.
47:35
I get people calling me names on that.
47:37
Thirdly, I'm a gamer.
47:38
OK.
47:39
And in some ways, we are the most depressed.
47:40
I'm full of that.
47:41
Full of that.
47:42
Yeah.
47:43
OK.
47:44
Number four.
47:45
I'm also white in the United States, which is also tied for the most depressed class, especially
47:48
on Twitter.
47:49
So yeah, I take Umbridge, try convincing the work of that.
47:52
I'm sure that they'll be delighted by your oppression as a white male.
47:56
That'll go down.
47:57
Well, the right would welcome me with open arms.
47:58
So this is true.
47:59
So Twitter is Twitter healthy for you at this point?
48:04
For me, it is.
48:05
I don't know if it is for my fans that watch me engage with it, but here is my thing.
48:09
I can have a lot of fun online, but when I turn it off, I'm done with it, right?
48:12
Do you turn it off?
48:13
I think sometimes.
48:15
I mean, it's always fun to go on Twitter.
48:17
But what I mean is that, like, I truly, like, when I go to sleep at night, like, I go
48:21
to sleep, and then I wake up, and then I do everything all over again, I'm very, like,
48:25
now, especially having a son, I'm very childlike with my anger, generally, sometimes it works
48:29
for my detriment, and that, like, if I'm mad at somebody or something, I can usually only
48:32
be mad for an hour or two.
48:33
Like, it's very rare that I carry this, like, deep-seated hatred or grudges against people
48:37
with me throughout most of my life.
48:39
And I maybe even got in trouble with this, because I let people back in a little bit
48:41
too easily.
48:42
But yeah, like, I'll go crazy if somebody on Twitter, you know, and then I'll close it,
48:45
and I'll go eat dinner with my wife, or, like, hang out, play video games, like, it's
48:49
just not something that I carry with me throughout the entire day.
48:51
Like, I might check Twitter later to see if anybody wants to fight, but it's not like
48:54
having a severely negative emotional impact on me.
48:56
But if it is, I think you should probably pull the blog on it.
48:58
Like, for some people, some people are very negatively impacted by Twitter.
49:02
Like, if you're at a point where you're cutting yourself more because of what's happening
49:05
on Twitter than what's happening in real life, like, you need to, it's time to unplug, you
49:08
know?
49:10
I get that.
49:11
I wonder what you make of the terrain of Twitter though.
49:14
Has it changed?
49:17
Yeah, but I mean, like, the nature of online stuff is always changing.
49:19
I definitely see a lot more videos of Black people fighting now on Twitter.
49:22
Thank you, Elon, ever since the, I guess, the algorithms have changed.
49:26
I know what you mean, that's just, you love watching Black people fight.
49:29
Yeah, I guess, or maybe it's just, it might just be the political, yeah, it might just
49:32
be the political current's changing as well that we're like getting different focuses
49:34
and everything.
49:35
I'm sure in six months, there'll be something different, but yeah, I'm not sure about
49:39
that.
49:40
Will it, will it be something different?
49:41
Or is there a, is there a winnowing effect where over time, it becomes, I mean, it's going
49:44
to be really interesting to see what happens with threads, right?
49:47
You know, like, it does, just, reds become a hostile and polarizing place.
49:52
So does it remain like this sunshine and candy and lollipops, Instagram offshoot?
49:58
Well, that may tell us a lot about human nature.
50:01
Yeah, I have, I have no idea.
50:04
There's a whole back argument to be made about, um, about antitrust and I don't know how,
50:10
I mean, from a capitalist point of view, I already don't, I don't know how Facebook was
50:13
allowed to buy Instagram.
50:14
Um, so it feels kind of weird that there's Facebook as a social media, there's Instagram
50:19
as a social media.
50:21
And now there's like threads as a social media, all right, by the same company.
50:24
I think that's a little bit wacky, but that's like a business capitalist, I guess thing.
50:28
Um, in terms of like where the culture will go, I feel like meta is probably more keen
50:32
to moderate its platforms a bit more intensely than Twitter is.
50:35
Well, certainly now, like in the picture, yeah.
50:37
Yeah, yeah.
50:38
Like on Facebook, I feel like you would get in trouble for stuff on Facebook way quicker
50:41
than you would on Twitter.
50:42
So I mean, especially since, yeah, especially since Zuckerberg clearly has an idea that
50:46
he wants to make an alternative to Twitter, which is explicitly a more, you know, a more
50:50
pleasant place to be, a less hostile place to be.
50:52
Have you ever deleted Twitter off your phone?
50:55
Well, no, what do you mean?
50:57
You've never been on some of the sessions.
51:00
What if somebody says something really stupid?
51:03
And now I've got to read down on the whole Twitter app just to go and fight with them.
51:05
Are you serious?
51:06
You added Twitter on both my phone.
51:09
Wow.
51:10
What are you talking about when I delete Twitter off my phone?
51:13
I make my wife log into her Twitter on my Twitter on her account in case I don't have
51:16
my phone with me and I'm with her and I got to tweet something like, Jesus, is anyone
51:20
ever tried to have an intervention about social media with you?
51:23
My fans do all the time, but I will never be intervened against the reality is they'll
51:27
sit there and say that Twitter is horrible for me, but they can't take their eyes off
51:30
it.
51:31
They love it.
51:32
Okay.
51:33
I am the man in the Colosseum, and though they may cry at the brutality that existed
51:36
side said Colosseum, they can't tear their eyes away from it.
51:38
They love it.
51:39
So is there an audience capture component?
51:43
Yeah, audience capture thing is something everybody asked to worry about, yeah, is it happening
51:47
to you?
51:48
No, I'm above it.
51:49
How?
51:50
Something I thought about a long time ago is the I've gone through a lot of like, well,
51:56
then I was early in my life.
51:57
I went through a couple of major political shifts.
51:59
The biggest one was probably transitioning from being like a hardcore Catholic to an atheist.
52:02
And I spent a lot of time thinking about like, what is the ideology I came from?
52:06
Where is the IDL I am going?
52:07
And how do I make it so that I don't get immediately captured by a new thing?
52:10
After I transitioned from being Catholic to atheist, I read I ran for like a year and
52:14
I was like, holy like I'm an objectivist.
52:16
I'm going to go support Ron Paul.
52:17
I love this.
52:18
And I realized afterwards I'm like, man, I basically picked up the first philosopher I
52:21
could if I ran this such and I fully bought into all of their arguments.
52:25
And I realized that I was very easily persuaded by every single philosopher person that I read.
52:31
And so I was like, okay, I need to like build like some mental safeguards against just
52:34
immediately being captured by all of these people.
52:37
And in my early life, that was something I kind of thought of personally for development.
52:41
And then later on, as life went through when I started streaming and I got an audience,
52:45
it's always something that I'm like very, very careful about is I try to skirt a line
52:48
very carefully between I don't want my audience to just agree with me because I say something.
52:53
But I also need an audience.
52:54
And I'm just going to shut on me relentlessly.
52:56
So I walk a very careful line in terms of if I say certain things, you can go to my
52:59
stuff, right?
53:00
You can find my audience fighting back against me.
53:01
People don't agree with everything I say.
53:03
But like I try to like keep the anti-fans at bay.
53:06
I'm not scared to lose large chunks of my audience.
53:08
If I feel like an audience capture is happening.
53:10
So there have been some big fights.
53:11
I've been in with prior figures, Vaush and Hassan are two of them to where I realized
53:15
that like a large chunk of my audience were like socialists and communists.
53:18
And I was totally okay.
53:19
Just like, axing half my audience because that's not a thing I want to play into.
53:23
Yeah, they're just, they're a lot of like little mental checks and balances that I have
53:25
to try to make sure that I'm not like going to find that like five years into the future.
53:29
I'm like, oh my god, like I don't think I even believe this stuff.
53:31
But I had to see it because my audience wanted me to say it.
53:33
Yeah, I mean, that's a good thing to be mindful of.
53:36
It's also difficult to navigate to ride that bucking horse when you're on it.
53:42
I don't think that I don't think the key problem with audience capture is necessarily
53:46
that you're going to say things that your audience doesn't that you don't believe
53:50
because your audience believes them.
53:52
But that you're going to be attracted to topics that you know generate heat for your audience.
53:58
I don't think there's anything wrong with generating heat from topics.
54:00
That's fine.
54:01
Like I'll definitely talk about topical things, more than non topical things.
54:04
The only thing that's scary is that sometimes like here's something that here's a way that
54:07
I've maneuvered myself.
54:08
It's got some pros and some cons.
54:10
So I am relatively ideologically homeless in that like I don't have like I am a progressive.
54:16
Come watch me for that or I may liberal or I may whatever.
54:19
Like I am who I am Stephen Bonnell, aka destiny.
54:22
I've got a core set of principles that I believe in.
54:24
And then from those core set of principles, here are my policy positions.
54:27
I tend to align largely with the democratic establishment socially.
54:30
I probably align fairly well with progressives.
54:32
But because that's how I identify, I have a lot of flexibility to kind of grow and change
54:36
as the years go on.
54:37
If somebody presents me a really good argument for why affirmative action is either really
54:41
good or really bad, then I'll change.
54:43
That's fine because I'm not beholden to a certain political ideology that I've like
54:46
identified as.
54:47
So a lot of people like to identify certain ideologies because it gives them a lot of advantages.
54:51
They can gain a new audience very easily.
54:53
They can associate with other people very easily.
54:55
And then it gives them kind of like a playbook for what to think about certain topics.
54:58
So because I don't do that, obviously it insulates me from a lot of audiences on it.
55:02
There's a lot of club that I don't necessarily gain, but it gives me a lot more flexibility
55:05
to honestly navigate my beliefs.
55:07
And that's a good answer.
55:09
One of the things that I'm noticing on social media is that people who I, who's intellect
55:13
I respect, are becoming less and less broad-minded.
55:16
I mean, I think my buddy Sam Harris has said of Elon Musk many times.
55:21
Like does anyone think that the world view that Elon currently inhabits is more expansive
55:26
than it was 10 years ago or more petty?
55:30
And one of the reasons Sam got off Twitter was precisely because it's having that function
55:34
on his own mind.
55:36
Right.
55:37
And he's saying, if this is happening to someone who's intellect I respect as much as I respect
55:40
Elon Musk, what impact is it happening?
55:42
Is it having on me?
55:43
And even in the, so I, you know, without great fanfare or any particular principle, I just
55:48
deleted the Twitter app off my phone, although I still haven't account, you know, like eight
55:51
months ago.
55:52
So I spend a lot less time on it, and I barely posted all on social media anymore.
55:56
And I was just going through some of your tweets.
55:59
And they are less interesting to me than they were two years ago.
56:03
Like they seem more parochial.
56:05
I don't know how that word means.
56:10
Oh, parochial means, like specific, very specific to your own, to the, to the universe
56:17
that one inhabits, like localize, like, like narrow, you know, cut off, span my vocabulary,
56:23
cut off from like, well, this is a good test.
56:26
Why don't I see what the, the dictionary definition of parochial is, but like, you know,
56:31
less, less, um, yeah, having like a limited, um, or narrow outlook or scope.
56:35
Which way it sounds like it was related to a church parish.
56:38
Yeah.
56:39
Yeah.
56:40
Um, there's something that, when it comes to like changing ones of views in certain
56:44
environments, this is, I gave a speech to a bunch of high schoolers.
56:46
I try to like, there's like five broad things that I have, like, that have been pretty
56:50
static throughout my entire life that I don't think I'm ever going to change my mind
56:53
on.
56:54
And one of these five things, I figured this at a very early age, thank God, I don't
56:57
know how or why I figured this out, but I did.
57:00
And it's something that stuck with me for a long time is if somebody says something and
57:03
I don't like it or I think it's stupid, then my goal is to figure out why is this dumb
57:08
and what's a better position.
57:09
But oftentimes what happens is when somebody says something or doesn't get stupid, you
57:13
want to identify as the opposite thing that they have.
57:16
And I think there are far too many people that fall into that trap of getting attacked
57:20
by a certain political faction or getting attacked by a certain idea, who are like, oh,
57:23
well, I see how bad you guys are.
57:25
I'm going to believe the opposite.
57:26
And yeah, I think the Elon Musk and other people, you know, run a foul of trying to prevent
57:30
that from happening quite a lot, you know, but isn't part of the game of Twitter
57:33
that someone pokes you and so then you own them, I don't mean you specifically, but one does.
57:40
And your particular, you are particularly good at that.
57:42
And so the things that they poke you with become a determinant of the sort of scope of your
57:47
own vision.
57:48
And if you're in an environment in which people are poking you with more and more irrelevant
57:52
and petty things about fringe figures in the world of Twitter, you find yourself slaying
57:58
ever smaller dragons than you would possibly just depends.
58:03
Yeah, I mean, it depends on, yeah, that just depends on, yeah, for me, Twitter is like
58:08
almost exclusively like fighting with people or whoever wants to poke their head out on
58:12
Twitter, usually podcasts or things like like these are we're going to have like better
58:17
discussions or if I go to set up like formal debates with people, but especially in between
58:20
election seasons, it seems like Twitter because the thing is is like, none of the dragons,
58:25
one of the large dragons on Twitter are actually trying to fight with people usually, like they'll
58:28
tweet a little bit, but I think generally it's just there for them to promote themselves.
58:31
No, I don't mean dragons in terms of individuals, I mean dragons in terms of issues, right?
58:35
So like, you know, there was a time pre-COVID when I would spend a lot of time on Twitter and
58:40
I'd be having interesting arguments with people about some of the biggest questions whether
58:43
that's healthcare or, you know, climate change or whatever it might be.
58:48
And now I feel like I go on there and there are lots of arguments about some person I've
58:52
never heard of saying something about some other person that I've never heard of.
58:55
That's what I mean by a small dragon.
58:56
Oh, yeah, that can happen.
59:01
I don't even know what I've been, I don't know if I even, I feel like I've used Twitter less
59:05
and less over the past year since Elon has taken over. So let me see if I can find something
59:14
on my Twitter.
59:16
Well, like, okay, can someone keep explaining to me why they keep referring to
59:21
surfer girl as a model or just posting pics on Instagram and make you a model now?
59:24
People are acting like she's doing this as a full-time career or I'm missing something.
59:28
Is she even getting paid?
59:29
So then, like, to someone to a normie like me, I would have to go and find out what the fuck you're talking
59:34
about.
59:35
Oh, yeah, that's the, yeah, I'm over the Jonah hell.
59:37
Yeah, the Jonah hell stuff.
59:39
Did you ever hear anything about this?
59:40
No, miss me.
59:41
Oh, yeah, well, it's important discourse, okay.
59:44
Discourse.
59:46
Anyway, so there's a lot of, and you know, like, yeah, there's just that there's a universe of like
59:53
increasingly petty and narrow arguments between increasingly petty and narrow people,
59:58
and I don't want to see your intellect get swamped into that.
1:00:01
Sure.
1:00:02
I think that something that might be playing into this a lot too,
1:00:05
and it might feel like social medias are causing it, but it might actually not be social medias.
1:00:10
It might actually be a consequence of where politics in the United States is right now.
1:00:15
On a really broad level, there's a few things happening in the US.
1:00:18
One is despite all the criticisms and despite how much conservatives might say otherwise,
1:00:22
Biden has done a really good job at being a relatively non-controversial,
1:00:27
relatively uniting figure.
1:00:28
Jimmy Joel, would you disagree with you there?
1:00:30
Yeah, I know I would, but like, Biden hasn't like gone hard on Republicans much.
1:00:34
That's why when you asked them about him, he thought like reference to one speech he gave a
1:00:38
year ago.
1:00:39
He's done a good job at doing bipartisan legislation.
1:00:41
He's just, he's a really hard person to have strong feelings about.
1:00:44
Even if you don't like Biden, it's really hard to say.
1:00:46
I hate by like, he just doesn't invoke that type of like strong feelings.
1:00:48
So conservatives have no common enemy to rally behind.
1:00:52
And then on the conservative side,
1:00:54
their whole movement right now is kind of like catastrophized
1:00:57
in like trying to figure out whether or not they're going to follow trouble off the edge of the earth.
1:01:00
And it's like this Trump versus Santa's thing.
1:01:02
So with Biden not providing a lightning rod for conservatives to rally around to attack,
1:01:06
and then with conservatives having no party figure to rally around,
1:01:10
they have really had no real policy positions for like the last two years.
1:01:15
If you look at conservative discourse, a lot of the times the argument we might have on Twitter
1:01:20
might revolve around like what are the conservatives and the Democrats fighting about?
1:01:24
Conservatives for the last year have not been talking about immigration.
1:01:27
They haven't been talking about health care.
1:01:29
They haven't even been talking about foreign policy that much except to complain about money we
1:01:32
send to Ukraine.
1:01:33
It's like all been these stupid social issues, namely trans stuff and then grooming of kids.
1:01:38
Like for months and for over, I think for over a year now.
1:01:42
And as a result of that, I mean like again, a lot of the conversations on Twitter will revolve around
1:01:46
a lot of the political fights because conservatives have no positions right now
1:01:49
besides fighting about trans people.
1:01:50
There's just like not much to talk about politically there I think.
1:01:53
That's interesting.
1:01:54
Why is trans gender?
1:01:56
Why have transgender issues so captivated culture at the moment, particularly on the right?
1:02:01
Is it, I mean some people blame left wing overreach and some people blame right wing
1:02:06
bigotry? Is there another explanation?
1:02:09
I just I feel like Republicans just don't stand for much.
1:02:12
It might sound biased, but like even under, I mean even under Obama.
1:02:15
Like it was McConnell that said that like you're right that you're not going to get anything done.
1:02:19
I'm going to obstruct you every step of the way.
1:02:21
We don't even get a Supreme Court justice, which in the United States is a really big deal.
1:02:25
And then you know, Trump didn't do anything.
1:02:28
We were supposed to repeal and replace Obamacare, it didn't happen.
1:02:30
No infrastructure bill, no legislation really at all except for tax cuts.
1:02:35
And then Biden comes in and Republicans are just like, yeah, I hate everything he does.
1:02:38
I don't like this guy or whatever, but they don't like they don't really stand for anything
1:02:41
anymore. They completely flipped on their whole like economic platform.
1:02:44
Like if you remember the Neocons, like the Bush error Republicans, like they were all like
1:02:48
very much into big business and they liked immigration to some extent because of labor and
1:02:51
everything. And now Republicans hate big business and they hate the government and they hate
1:02:57
the Democrats and they hate Ukraine and they hate foreign policy and they hate like they hate
1:03:03
Hollywood. They just like hate everything. I don't even know what Republicans like about this
1:03:05
country. I don't know if they like anything about this country. Like they all act like we need to
1:03:08
have like a what it's called the great divorce, I think, where some people are saying states need
1:03:12
to see from the union. So yeah, I don't know. I kind of it sounds like I'm coming down to
1:03:15
harsh and Republicans there, but I just I feel like they just define themselves as like hating
1:03:18
woke people, hating Marxism, hating whatever. Yeah. And that's it. And then it all boils down to
1:03:23
done like little social issues. Yeah. All right. I want to ask you about where this whole
1:03:26
heads. I will for the for the free subscribers to my podcast, I will bid them a dear and thank you.
1:03:31
And for the for the subscribers on my podcast feed, the paid subscribers. I want to ask you about
1:03:37
the the future of God damn civilization. Where are you if you're reading the tea leaves?
1:03:46
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