Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #100: Interview with Frank Smith, National Coordinator of the National Educational Association of Disabled Students (NEADS)

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #100: Interview with Frank Smith, National Coordinator of the National Educational Association of Disabled Students (NEADS) · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:12
  Podcast Commentator: Greetings, Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to
• 0:20
  her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
• 0:24
  Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 0:27
  insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
• 0:31
  Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 0:35
  especially kids with disabilities.
• 0:38
  Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
• 0:42
  dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
• 0:45
  law graduate, and podcast commentator.
• 0:49
  She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
• 0:53
  skills, and expertise in access, technology and information.
• 0:58
  As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 1:02
  she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 1:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:14
  I'm Donna J. Jordan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
• 1:22
  through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
• 1:26
  I am a law graduate and accessibility consultant and author,
• 1:32
  Lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind.
• 1:37
  You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
• 1:43
  I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
• 1:49
  accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted Canadians.
• 1:56
  And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
• 2:03
  disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
• 2:09
  And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
• 2:16
  Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
• 2:23
  When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
• 2:30
  you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
• 2:34
  producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
• 2:39
  gadgets talk back in plain language.
• 2:43
  Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
• 2:50
  everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
• 2:57
  where policy meets lived experience and lived experience meets fresh ideas.
• 3:05
  Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
• 3:09
  let me shine a spotlight on today's guest change maker whose work is every bit as
• 3:17
  remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
• 3:22
  I am extremely pleased and privileged to have Frank Smith,
• 3:27
  the CEO of needs, and I will let Frank tell you all about needs.
• 3:32
  But Frank, welcome to our podcast and here we go.
• 3:38
  Frank Smith: Thank you so much, Donna.
• 3:39
  It's really a pleasure and an honor to be part of your podcast.
• 3:44
  And and of course, I've been aware for a long time of your significant contributions to the
• 3:50
  disability movement. So Congratulations to you.
• 3:54
  Of course. I have been with the National Educational Association of Disabled Students
• 4:02
  for 40 years now, and it's been quite a career.
• 4:05
  And we're primarily a youth serving organization.
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  So these days, I'm sort of the oldest person in every every room,
• 4:14
  whether virtual or in person.
• 4:17
  Some people would say that I have great wisdom and experience.
• 4:24
  Other people would say, you know, maybe it's about time you retired
• 4:27
  or something, which I will be doing shortly, but no after a 40 year career,
• 4:33
  but I'm, I'm so excited to talk to you about everything that the organization has
• 4:37
  accomplished to date. And, and I know that the organization will
• 4:41
  continue to have a bright future after I move on into,
• 4:46
  into retirement.
• 4:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have Devoted essentially your whole career to a single mission.
• 4:57
  So I'd like to begin at the beginning.
• 5:00
  What first drew you as a young journalism student at Carleton University into the world
• 5:10
  of disability advocacy?
• 5:14
  Frank Smith: Yes. I was a young once upon a time.
• 5:17
  I was a young journalism student at Carleton University,
• 5:20
  all bright eyed and bushy tailed.
• 5:23
  I was a student from 1981 to 1985 when I received my Bachelor of Journalism degree.
• 5:30
  I lived in residence for the first three years of my honors program and in residence.
• 5:39
  I was living at Glengarry House and there were quite a few other students with
• 5:46
  disabilities men and women, young men and women who were living in
• 5:50
  Glengarry House on campus, in residence when I was there,
• 5:54
  and I became friends with a number of them.
• 5:56
  A number of a number of folks with disabilities who were who were peers and
• 6:01
  fellow students. Some of them were in the journalism program with me.
• 6:05
  And over the course of my studies, I started actually writing stories about
• 6:13
  disability issues. Or assignments that we had in,
• 6:19
  in more than one of our journalism courses, I became really fascinated with the,
• 6:25
  with the issues affecting disabled students at all levels in terms of access to
• 6:34
  university studies at Carleton and I after I graduated,
• 6:41
  I was invited to write a grant application to what was at the time the Secretary of State
• 6:52
  and the Disabled Persons Participation Program.
• 6:56
  For to to establish the first to hold the first National Conference,
• 7:03
  the first conference of a proposed organization of disabled students across
• 7:10
  Canada. And that grant application.
• 7:15
  And that initiative was at the time very much involved students with disabilities who
• 7:25
  were part of awareness.
• 7:26
  Carleton, which is the precursor to the current Carleton Disability Awareness Centre,
• 7:32
  which was a service centre supported by the Carleton University Students Association at
• 7:37
  the time, was more of a club than a service centre.
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  So the majority of the people who were involved in that first grant application to
• 7:45
  hold a national conference where disabled students and.
• 7:50
  We held our first national conference at the Westin Hotel in in July of 1986.
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  And at the national conference, we were able to bring together students with
• 8:04
  disabilities from colleges and universities from across Canada to for,
• 8:10
  for a number of workshops and discussion sessions.
• 8:15
  And at that conference, we established a constitution for the
• 8:21
  organization and the first board of directors of the organization.
• 8:27
  And it was those were very those were very exciting times for the organization because
• 8:33
  it was the foundation of needs.
• 8:36
  And we called it the conference, the foundation.
• 8:41
  Wow.
• 8:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You were part of a small group that founded Knights back in 1986,
• 8:51
  and you're still its national national coordinator for decades later.
• 8:59
  What did that founding moment look like, and what convinced you that this organization
• 9:06
  simply had to exist?
• 9:10
  Frank Smith: Well, I think, you know, when we had that conference and and let me
• 9:14
  tell you, it was a real at the time, it was not only costly,
• 9:20
  but we had a grant to support the the costs of the event,
• 9:24
  which included travel and accommodation of subsidized students to,
• 9:28
  to attend. But it was also difficult to organize a conference like that,
• 9:34
  and particularly one that was founding an organization rather than an organization that
• 9:40
  had already existed for a period of time and had infrastructure and everything else,
• 9:45
  lots of staff and as many NGOs did at that time.
• 9:48
  Right. So we were, you know, we were organizing a conference before the
• 9:54
  internet. Oh, young people today cannot even imagine what that would look like.
• 9:59
  Right. So we, we were literally sending out mailings to schools and using the telephone
• 10:08
  and using all sorts of primitive methods of networking and communication.
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  And somehow we managed, I think we had about 130 people or something.
• 10:20
  The majority of them were disabled students from across the country.
• 10:24
  We managed to organize the thing and get people into Ottawa and arrange their
• 10:28
  transportation. And, and, you know, we had at that time,
• 10:33
  you know, we had sign language interpretation.
• 10:36
  We had various Accommodations for for the participants.
• 10:41
  And, and really, you know, most of us who were involved,
• 10:45
  including myself, didn't have a lot of experience with conference planning, but we
• 10:49
  learned along the way.
• 10:51
  And, and, you know, over the course of the weekend,
• 10:53
  that first conference, my passion for the organization,
• 10:57
  which was just, you know, starting in its early earliest days was my
• 11:06
  passion for the issues and for the organization just increased over the course
• 11:09
  of that weekend. And once we had a board of directors in place and they seemed to be
• 11:14
  interested in having me continue on in the, in the role of coordinator.
• 11:21
  That was very exciting.
• 11:22
  We didn't have we had a couple of part time people who were working with me.
• 11:26
  So we didn't have a huge staff.
• 11:28
  We had an office at Carleton.
• 11:30
  So those were, those were very sort of heady days.
• 11:33
  And we, you know, we, we, we basically started an organization from
• 11:39
  scratch, and clearly there was a need for it.
• 11:42
  There were organizations.
• 11:43
  There were other student organizations. Of course, at the time there was.
• 11:47
  There wasn't an organization in Canada representing disabled students.
• 11:52
  And, you know, of course, there were service providers who worked in
• 11:55
  the disability services offices.
• 11:57
  And there there were, you know, at that time,
• 12:00
  there were other national organizations of persons with disabilities,
• 12:04
  including the precursor to the Council of Canadians with disabilities,
• 12:09
  which was COBOL. They were called the Coalition of Provincial Organizations of the
• 12:14
  handicapped. You can see why they later changed their name.
• 12:18
  Yeah. And and there were other organizations,
• 12:20
  too many of them representing sort of single disability issues.
• 12:24
  And we, we formed ourselves, which are of course,
• 12:28
  those organizations are important too, but we created an organization that was
• 12:33
  designed to be Across disability and to support college and university students with
• 12:39
  disabilities as our constituency.
• 12:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think two very high profile names come to my mind because I know that they have been
• 12:51
  associated with with needs in the past, and that's how I got to know about needs.
• 12:56
  I, I was never a member of needs, but I, I, I referred to Jennison Asuncion and
• 13:04
  Anthony Tibbs have made wonderful contributions to,
• 13:11
  to the advocacy movement.
• 13:12
  And I know that this, you know, they've spoken very highly of
• 13:17
  needs. So I think, you know, definite products of advocacy have come out
• 13:21
  of your organization. And, and for this, I personally,
• 13:25
  I'm very, very grateful.
• 13:27
  Frank Smith: Yeah. I think you mentioned Jennison and Anthony Tips.
• 13:30
  So Jennison was actually on the board of directors for our organization for a number
• 13:34
  of years, went on to be involved with Adapt Tech,
• 13:40
  Boston College, and he I believe he still works as a senior accessibility person with
• 13:48
  LinkedIn. He's now in the United States now.
• 13:51
  And I've lost track of Anthony a little bit, although I saw him a few years ago,
• 13:56
  he spoke at more than one of our conferences.
• 13:59
  And I know that he, you know, he's an expert on adaptive technologies.
• 14:07
  He also has been involved, I think, with ABC,
• 14:11
  the Alliance for Quality Blind Canadians and other organizations in the movement.
• 14:16
  There's so many people.
• 14:17
  And that's the other thing that I will say is that you mentioned just two people there.
• 14:21
  Yeah. You know, between board members of the organization over time who are volunteers and
• 14:28
  staff that we've had and consultants working with your organization,
• 14:31
  which have all been people with disabilities with 1 or 2 exceptions.
• 14:38
  There are so many outstanding people who were outstanding student leaders at the time that
• 14:45
  they were with the organization and have gone on to incredible careers.
• 14:50
  Some of them have continued working on the issues with other organizations or in the
• 14:54
  private sector, you name it.
• 14:55
  Right. But it, it actually just speaks to, and I could name many people,
• 15:02
  but it just speaks to the fact that people with disabilities,
• 15:07
  when afforded the opportunity of accessible education are can be successful in all fields
• 15:16
  of study in all disciplines and can move on into the competitive employment market and
• 15:22
  make a contribution, continue to make a contribution throughout their entire working
• 15:28
  lives in their communities and addressing the issues that need to be addressed.
• 15:33
  On behalf of disabled persons, by persons with disabilities,
• 15:36
  which was always the most important thing.
• 15:40
  And I should say that, you know, at the time when I became first
• 15:43
  became involved with the organization, I wasn't a person with a disability myself.
• 15:49
  Although around 2006, I was hit with a really weird flu like virus,
• 15:56
  which was for a period of time was identified as chronic fatigue syndrome and then Lyme
• 16:02
  disease. And with different diagnosis diagnoses,
• 16:07
  I continue to have symptoms physical symptoms.
• 16:12
  And also it's affected my mental health.
• 16:14
  So I started out as a person without a disability working in a disabled persons
• 16:19
  organization. And then like a lot of people in society,
• 16:23
  I acquired a disability over time Abilities.
• 16:27
  And that actually made me, I think, much better at my job.
• 16:31
  Right. Having greater empathy and greater understanding with lived experience.
• 16:38
  And that's always the most important thing in our community, with our organizations to have
• 16:42
  lived experience. You talked about that at the beginning in your introduction.
• 16:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Now, when this began in 1986, campus life for students with
• 16:55
  disabilities was a very different world.
• 17:00
  No internet, no smartphones.
• 17:04
  Textbooks on writing, on tape or in Braille.
• 17:09
  Weeks behind everyone else.
• 17:13
  Can you take our listeners back to what post-secondary study was actually like for
• 17:22
  disabled students then?
• 17:25
  Frank Smith: Well, you've actually cited, Donna, a number of the of the factors and the
• 17:30
  circumstances that were in place.
• 17:35
  During that time, way back when the organization started,
• 17:38
  in fact, through the 80s and into the 90s.
• 17:41
  And, you know, the early part of the 2000.
• 17:44
  Well, you know, we, we, we ended up having the internet and we ended
• 17:48
  up having online access used to be called the information superhighway.
• 17:53
  Remember when.
• 17:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes.
• 17:55
  Frank Smith: When the internet was first available to us.
• 17:58
  So what that meant for accessibility for students with disabilities.
• 18:01
  What really depended on was dependent upon the the the student's disability.
• 18:07
  Right. So their physical access issues, if somebody was a wheelchair user student,
• 18:11
  they had to navigate a campus that oftentimes was spread out all over the place.
• 18:17
  Many, many blocks, particularly bigger schools like the University of Toronto or
• 18:21
  Queen's or McGill University are.
• 18:25
  Some of the Atlantic Canadian universities were fairly spread out,
• 18:29
  and they all had different kind of topography to them too,
• 18:31
  right? Some were hilly, some were flat, some had built like old
• 18:35
  heritage buildings with or without elevators,
• 18:39
  you know. So there were the physical access issues which continue to this day,
• 18:46
  although, you know, with modern building codes and,
• 18:49
  and, and and, and legislation governing, you know,
• 18:56
  the accessibility of new construction and even renovating older buildings.
• 19:04
  We have more physically accessible spaces, I would say.
• 19:10
  But physical challenges still existed then to a greater extent still exists today,
• 19:19
  I think for students, for example, who were with vision loss of any
• 19:26
  kind. It was particularly challenging, as you mentioned.
• 19:29
  I mean, some students who had some sight were able to use either regular books or books in
• 19:38
  large print. Certainly, as you mentioned, you know,
• 19:43
  books on tape. That was very primitive kind of,
• 19:48
  of technology and it took a lot more time for the student and you would be well aware of
• 19:53
  this. It took a lot more time for personal experience.
• 19:56
  It took a lot more time to re read a book and consume information than it does using
• 20:03
  electronic formats and speech recognition software and things like that with electronic
• 20:10
  documents. So, you know, that was, you know,
• 20:15
  there was actually a student who was a, a peer of in journals from Peter Field,
• 20:21
  who actually went on to quite a career in in the federal public service.
• 20:27
  And he was, he was, he was a blind journalism student.
• 20:31
  He was in, he was the same in the same program as I was in.
• 20:35
  And I know it was particularly challenging for him,
• 20:37
  but he did very, very well.
• 20:40
  But he would but he would have found it less challenging today.
• 20:43
  But he managed to work with the with what, you know,
• 20:47
  the technology that was available to him.
• 20:50
  Right. And like a lot of students.
• 20:52
  Right. And they learned and they adapted.
• 20:55
  You know, we had for students with hearing loss,
• 20:58
  there wasn't captioning per se, but there was.
• 21:02
  And of course some students needed, preferred to have would have,
• 21:07
  I guess there's some sort of primitive captioning at the time there were ASL
• 21:11
  interpreters that were hired, I think through the Canadian Hearing Society
• 21:16
  at the time. And, you know, you know, those kinds of services were
• 21:20
  available. But the and even just doing research in the library,
• 21:25
  for example was, was challenging for students with different types of disabilities.
• 21:32
  There wasn't as much recognition of learning disabilities back then.
• 21:36
  There were assessments, but a lot of students were not assessed
• 21:39
  properly. There was no understanding of of autism spectrum conditions like there is
• 21:47
  today. And we now realize that there are a greater percentage of,
• 21:51
  of, you know, very high percentage of students are neurodivergent on our campuses,
• 21:56
  right? So there are very few services for those students.
• 21:59
  Back then, the mental health supports were not good.
• 22:02
  The many students were were actually afraid to self-identify as having a disability and
• 22:08
  even register with their disability services offices.
• 22:13
  And I think that, of course, that required and still requires to this day
• 22:18
  medical documentation, which is one thing that has not changed over
• 22:23
  time. It's still a very much a medical model when it comes to delivery of accommodations
• 22:30
  and supports for students with disabilities, whether it's,
• 22:33
  you know, with exams and assignments or with you know,
• 22:39
  in the classroom accommodations, it's very much still medical model.
• 22:45
  So that sort of thing hasn't changed. I will say that,
• 22:47
  you know, fast forward to 2026, we have a lot you know,
• 22:53
  more students have access to technologies that can that totally level the playing
• 23:00
  field, whether in school or work.
• 23:03
  The, the technologies are, are in relative terms,
• 23:08
  the adaptive technologies are much more affordable and available,
• 23:12
  but there's still an issue with costs for many things.
• 23:15
  And many students struggle, of course, with even housing and food
• 23:18
  insecurity, for example.
• 23:20
  Right. So, so so, so even things that are equipment that might,
• 23:26
  we might consider reasonably priced in relative terms is still out of reach for some
• 23:31
  students who don't receive sufficient financial aid to cover the costs.
• 23:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Things have really you know, improved since the beginnings of need,
• 23:42
  right? I mean, I, I can vouch for that in many ways in that I've seen so many stages of
• 23:48
  technical or technology progress.
• 23:50
  So, but there is still a lot more work to be done,
• 23:54
  right?
• 23:55
  Frank Smith: There's a lot there is a lot more work to be done.
• 23:57
  And that's why there continues to be a need for organizations like ours in the
• 24:03
  post-secondary space. And also for I should, I should say for many other disability
• 24:12
  organizations that have different mandates.
• 24:17
  In some cases, it's still like similar mandates in terms of,
• 24:20
  you know, it's a voice of our own and, and consumer directed and supported.
• 24:26
  Clearly the, you know, the advocacy organizations have are very
• 24:30
  different from the service providers like Cnib,
• 24:32
  for example, the service provider.
• 24:35
  And there's, there's still a need for organizations because the fact of the matter
• 24:41
  is they're persons with disabilities continue to have their,
• 24:46
  their human basic human rights denied in many,
• 24:53
  in many contexts. And that includes in school,
• 24:57
  at work in community access to housing, transportation,
• 25:02
  you name it. Right. And all of those things, by the way,
• 25:05
  are critically important for students who have disabilities to fully participate in
• 25:11
  academic and campus life.
• 25:13
  Right. Many students need accessible transportation.
• 25:17
  They need tenant services.
• 25:19
  They need the supports in community.
• 25:21
  And some and many of those supports, of course,
• 25:24
  are on campus. But and we're in a situation right now where we have colleges and
• 25:34
  universities are facing a funding crisis because.
• 25:38
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 25:38
  Frank Smith: Partly to a large degree, actually, because of the reduction of
• 25:41
  international students coming into the country and the reduction of those fees that
• 25:48
  help to support academic programs and student services.
• 25:52
  So there's that pressure that's being felt on,
• 25:56
  on, on students who may be kind of marginalized in a university or college
• 26:04
  programs. And we have to remember too, to as as the organization moves forward after
• 26:09
  40 years of, of work that it's, you know, the,
• 26:17
  there's, there's, there's a lot more enabling human rights legislation that,
• 26:23
  that, that has a benefit, of course, but there's need,
• 26:27
  there's more work to be done, you know and, you know,
• 26:33
  you think about the aoda in Ontario and the progress that's been made probably further
• 26:40
  along than other provinces that have provincial disability legislation,
• 26:45
  but not far enough. And, and then, you know,
• 26:49
  you got now the Accessible Canada Act, which you cited in the first place,
• 26:55
  which, which deals with a number of really important pillars of accessibility within the
• 27:02
  federally regulated sector.
• 27:06
  But getting back to the the funding crisis, we also have we also have not enough
• 27:16
  funding going into public post-secondary through the Canada Social Transfer,
• 27:21
  the federal funding, and oftentimes many of the provincial and territorial governments,
• 27:27
  even if they receive, when they receive the transfer payments,
• 27:29
  are not spending that money where it should be should be spent.
• 27:33
  Right? So those things are, are are problematic.
• 27:39
  And then we have the issues of high tuition issues relating to inadequacy of financial
• 27:49
  aid, a move in Ontario, for example, recently to change the the
• 27:56
  alignment of, of grants to loans.
• 27:59
  It was 8020, now it's 2080 or something in favor of,
• 28:05
  of it was 80% grants and 20% loans.
• 28:11
  And now it's the other way around. Thanks.
• 28:13
  Yeah. I believe the federal program, the Canada Student Financial Assistance
• 28:16
  Program, which and most students receive a combination of federal and provincial grants
• 28:23
  and loans, continues to provide higher grants.
• 28:28
  And haven't they haven't reduced that and significantly added to the loans,
• 28:34
  which of course creates debt load upon graduation,
• 28:37
  and particularly for students with high financial need who might take longer to
• 28:42
  complete their programs of study. So we continue to have lots of issues that need to
• 28:46
  be, need to be addressed in a modern context.
• 28:49
  Right.
• 28:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. You hold a Bachelor of Journalism from Carleton,
• 28:58
  and you still Cure rate.
• 29:01
  So much of needs is storytelling.
• 29:05
  How has that training as a communicator shaped the way that you have led the
• 29:12
  organization and carried the voices of disabled students to the wider public?
• 29:21
  Frank Smith: I think that through the, you know, the first 20 years or so of the
• 29:26
  organization, I did a lot more writing.
• 29:29
  I continued to write press releases and, and edit research reports and things like
• 29:36
  that. But over the years we have we've hired lots of,
• 29:41
  of consultants and staff who have significant expertise in communication.
• 29:51
  So I think that my, and, you know, in more recent years,
• 29:57
  expertise in social media communication, which is not something that I'm I mean,
• 30:02
  I'm on social media personally and, and through my musical interests and things
• 30:08
  like that. But, and I do a little bit of management of our social media accounts,
• 30:12
  particularly Facebook, but we've actually brought in people.
• 30:15
  So my journals and background has been, has,
• 30:18
  has served me well in this role because there's certainly a lot of writing and
• 30:22
  there's, there's research that's being done by the organization.
• 30:26
  But typically, you know, if there's a, if there's a research project,
• 30:30
  we have a, we have a lead researcher, like most recently,
• 30:34
  we released a, what I think is a groundbreaking report on an employer toolkit,
• 30:42
  which is a guideline for accessibility and accommodations at all steps at all stages of
• 30:48
  the employment process.
• 30:50
  And that was that project was led by Doctor Charles Emmanuel,
• 30:55
  who's at Nipissing University and some researchers that we hired to work with him.
• 31:00
  So while I, you know, read those drafts of those reports and,
• 31:06
  and provide input, it's not like I'm writing everything that the organization produces.
• 31:11
  I do also continue to add media releases to our website,
• 31:20
  but oftentimes those are are written by other people.
• 31:24
  And I, I, I review our communications often before they go out.
• 31:30
  But thankfully we have, I think one of the, one of the most important
• 31:34
  things that we've done over the course of time.
• 31:37
  So the organization could meet student needs where they were at in the moment,
• 31:44
  in that moment in time is that we have continued to hire young people with
• 31:48
  disabilities to work within the organization.
• 31:51
  And, and those people of course, have I think,
• 31:56
  I think we have a problem in, in the movement in that we have a lot of old
• 32:00
  people, right? Not that those people are not doing great advocacy work,
• 32:04
  including myself. So but I think the organization has continued to rejuvenate
• 32:09
  itself by bringing in new people, young people,
• 32:14
  some with, you know, not a, a great deal of work experience,
• 32:21
  but very you know, outstanding communicators and writers and passionate about the issues,
• 32:30
  which is probably the most important thing and also have been able to offer that youth
• 32:37
  perspective and everything that we do.
• 32:40
  And that's always been critical because we are well,
• 32:43
  we serve students and support students with disabilities of all ages who are in
• 32:50
  post-secondary studies, Of course, but we're primarily a youth
• 32:55
  serving organization. Right.
• 32:57
  And and, and in order to be youth serving organization,
• 33:01
  we have young people on our board.
• 33:03
  We have young people on our staff primarily.
• 33:06
  And that really is important to make sure that we address the issues properly.
• 33:14
  You know, according to what students, young students with disabilities are facing
• 33:21
  as they navigate post-secondary and they navigate employment,
• 33:28
  you know, and work integrated learning situations relating to their academic
• 33:33
  studies, often that's that that has been important,
• 33:37
  I think, for the organization and important for me to make sure that we continue to
• 33:43
  rejuvenate the organization by having more young people involved.
• 33:47
  And many have stayed, many people that we hire,
• 33:50
  and often we hire them on a Canada summer jobs grant or something.
• 33:54
  Have stayed with the organization for many years after their summer job or whatever.
• 34:00
  That's another thing. We've done a good job of retaining people.
• 34:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 34:04
  Frank Smith: And then some people, when they're ready to move on to something
• 34:07
  else, they've had their experience with needs.
• 34:09
  You know, we, we say goodbye and wish them well.
• 34:13
  And they do go go on to do great things.
• 34:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is this the only type of organization in Canada?
• 34:25
  Would you say?
• 34:29
  Frank Smith: Yeah. We're the we're the only national organization with a specific focus on
• 34:35
  post-secondary education across disability perspective and intersectional lens and all
• 34:42
  that stuff, right? That we that we apply to the work that we do.
• 34:47
  There are on campus disabled students groups that are supported by student unions that are
• 34:54
  part of our of our network.
• 34:56
  There's also an organization in Quebec, the Quebec Association for equity,
• 35:01
  Inclusion and Post-Secondary Education, which has a very similar mission and mandate
• 35:05
  to our organization. And then, of course, as we're working with the on
• 35:13
  campus disabled students groups and student leaders across the country in the work we do
• 35:18
  as an organization, it's also very important for us to,
• 35:22
  to work collectively with the broader national disability organizations community.
• 35:28
  Right? And there like about 19 or 20 pretty prominent disability groups across Canada
• 35:35
  that I would, I would, I would call advocacy groups.
• 35:41
  All right. Let's see. I wouldn't want to call them that.
• 35:44
  No, no, that's mostly of what we do is, I would say most people is we provide
• 35:50
  information and support to enable people to be successful.
• 35:56
  One of the things that we that we do, you know,
• 35:59
  if I talk about advocacy, it's more about individual advocacy and
• 36:02
  supporting people. In circumstances, for example,
• 36:08
  when we do, when we advocate to the federal government to make improvements to the Canada
• 36:14
  Student Financial Assistance program is not political advocacy that is looking at a
• 36:22
  program that's provided by government and advising them as to how they can make it
• 36:28
  better from a student perspective.
• 36:30
  Right. We do a lot of that.
• 36:32
  And we also, we also will meet and support individual students with disabilities who
• 36:38
  have access issues, although we don't have enough people working with us currently to to
• 36:44
  do a lot of that. And what we do is produce enabling resources and websites and,
• 36:51
  and hold forums that allow students to, to share their voices on different issues.
• 36:59
  So I think, you know, I think that that's the other thing is,
• 37:03
  is, is well, our organization has a unique mission as a national group.
• 37:08
  We also situate ourselves with a lot within the community of a lot of national disability
• 37:14
  organizations. And there's strength in that, right?
• 37:16
  So we are working together to, as you mentioned in the beginning,
• 37:21
  we talked about the Accessible Canada Act and what many organizations,
• 37:26
  organizations did to, to advocate for that and advocate for
• 37:31
  improvements to it, the Canada disability benefit.
• 37:35
  You know, while it's only up to $2,000 a year,
• 37:39
  there was a lot of work that went into from the community People,
• 37:43
  people like you to ensure that that that became available and it's the kind of funding
• 37:53
  that can be available.
• 37:55
  Once it's established, it can be improved over time,
• 37:59
  right? It can become a more significant benefit over time.
• 38:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, there's so many things that other questions that I'd like to ask you,
• 38:13
  but the clock is telling me I only have limited time,
• 38:16
  but I have this question for you, for listeners who may be meeting needs for
• 38:22
  the first time, how would you describe its vision today and the community of
• 38:31
  post-secondary students and graduates with disabilities?
• 38:38
  It represents right across Canada.
• 38:42
  Frank Smith: How would I describe its mission today?
• 38:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 38:46
  Frank Smith: Well, I think I think our mission is similar to what it was in the very beginning.
• 38:52
  But I think that the the world has changed a lot.
• 38:57
  And the experience for students is different now than it was way back in 1986.
• 39:03
  Yeah. And I think that the organization is, is trying is trying all the time to be a
• 39:12
  voice of college and university students with disabilities.
• 39:18
  And sometimes, you know, we do that as, as an organization and
• 39:24
  sometimes we do that in support of other organizations and their,
• 39:31
  their issues. So like, even, for example, on individual campuses
• 39:37
  where On campus, disabled students groups and student leaders are holding,
• 39:42
  you know, our proposing referenda or something to change something at their
• 39:47
  university or college.
• 39:48
  We often lend our support and sign petitions and write letters and,
• 39:55
  and do all of that, that good stuff.
• 39:58
  Right. So I think the, the one thing that has,
• 40:03
  has always been important and is even more important today than it was 40 years ago,
• 40:11
  is that the organization is an organization of students and graduates with disabilities,
• 40:17
  not for students and graduates with disabilities.
• 40:20
  And we embed that in everything that we do.
• 40:22
  Right. Anybody on the board has a disability.
• 40:26
  They're either currently in school or they've graduated within the last five years from a
• 40:31
  college or university program.
• 40:34
  All the staff members have disability, various disabilities,
• 40:38
  all the consultant, you know, consultants we bring in,
• 40:41
  we make a point of hiring people with disabilities.
• 40:44
  We most recently did a very successful employment project with funding from the
• 40:50
  federal government's programs called Workplace Opportunities Removing Barriers to
• 40:56
  Equity Program. And as part of that project, we did job coaching.
• 41:00
  We offered a job coaching service, which was free up to 20 hours per per
• 41:07
  participant. And it was for students and graduates with disabilities.
• 41:11
  And we made a point of hiring job coaches with disabilities who had some,
• 41:18
  you know, experience in, in the career counseling,
• 41:23
  career support area. And also those, those job coaches received
• 41:33
  training through the Sustainable Livelihood Canada approach to deliver this particular
• 41:41
  program. So and we always hire students who have disabilities through the Canada Summer
• 41:46
  jobs program and other programs where we get funding for work integrated learning
• 41:51
  opportunities. So that has been we've not pivoted the organization to become a service
• 41:59
  organization like Cnib, for example.
• 42:01
  Right. There's a place for that.
• 42:03
  Yeah. The need for that.
• 42:05
  But that's not who we are and that's not what we do.
• 42:08
  And that doesn't mean that we we won't on occasion collaborate with service providers,
• 42:14
  including on campus folks who work in accessible learning offices.
• 42:19
  Of course. Right. But we have very much maintained that consumer perspective.
• 42:27
  And, and that means that embedded with within the organization's Principles and mission is
• 42:34
  that people with disabilities are directing the organization and running it.
• 42:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'd like to end this interview with one final question,
• 42:45
  but after that, I'd like for you to stick around after the recording is over.
• 42:50
  I wanted to ask you 1 or 2 questions.
• 42:53
  Can you share with us your retirement date or are you just thinking about it?
• 42:59
  Frank Smith: I will be retiring at the end of September.
• 43:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh. Oh, I got you in time.
• 43:05
  Frank Smith: I turned 65 on July 19th, and I'm.
• 43:09
  I'm retiring at the end of September.
• 43:11
  Oh, okay. And we have we will have a new national coordinator.
• 43:15
  Catherine Newman will be our natural national coordinator.
• 43:19
  And she's been with the organization now for about six years,
• 43:23
  has run the Need Student Financial Assistance Program,
• 43:27
  which is provided since 2007 $1.35 million in grants and awards to disabled students.
• 43:35
  She's also worked on our most recent Building Employment Pathways project,
• 43:41
  and has managed people and has done a lot of fun development work.
• 43:45
  And she's got lots of connections in the in the disability community.
• 43:49
  So we'll be in will be in very good hands.
• 43:52
  I may still be involved as a volunteer, you know,
• 43:56
  if, if, if, if, if the organization wants me to,
• 44:01
  you know, advise them or offer any kind of support as a volunteer.
• 44:05
  But yeah, so that's, it was about time for me to,
• 44:10
  to move on and give somebody else the opportunity to lead the organization.
• 44:15
  Probably, you know, it's, it's very unusual these days for anybody to
• 44:19
  work for any organization for 40 years.
• 44:22
  That's something.
• 44:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure.
• 44:24
  Frank Smith: And particularly today, most people starting a career today date,
• 44:29
  no intention of working for one organization.
• 44:33
  But, you know, and I think it's a good idea actually for people to switch careers over
• 44:37
  time and switch find different opportunities.
• 44:41
  But I've been with this in this job and this job has changed over time quite a bit.
• 44:47
  So I'm rolling with the opportunity.
• 44:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm very fortunate that I caught you before you retired.
• 44:55
  I mean, and, and to start to have started your career with needs at such a young age.
• 45:00
  You were just a young a kid.
• 45:03
  Frank Smith: I was and not with not much experience, unlike the person who will be assuming my
• 45:11
  role shortly. And you know, I think, but I, but I do think that lots of
• 45:17
  organizations are started by people who are young and are maybe not very experienced,
• 45:24
  but have a great, the most important thing is having a passion for?
• 45:28
  Yeah, for whatever it is that you're doing.
• 45:30
  Right. And having that passion goes a long way.
• 45:33
  And sometimes, you know, when you're young and you're inexperienced,
• 45:37
  you, you will make lots of mistakes.
• 45:39
  You'll learn from.
• 45:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 45:41
  Frank Smith: You'll grow from them.
• 45:43
  You learn how to the other thing working within an NGO and you'd be familiar with this
• 45:47
  is you have to deal with all sorts of different personalities and perspectives.
• 45:52
  Yeah, it'd be a really good listener.
• 45:55
  And sometimes you have to, to find a way to resolve conflicts.
• 46:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 46:01
  Frank Smith: You can't work with an organization for 40 years without having to deal with difficult
• 46:05
  things.
• 46:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 46:07
  Frank Smith: And, and that's the other thing about it, right?
• 46:09
  So I feel like I've kind of adapted over time.
• 46:11
  I feel like I'm a person with great empathy.
• 46:13
  And my approach has always been in, in working with people,
• 46:18
  whether it's collaborating with our board or working with staff is to be really supportive
• 46:24
  to to people like it's it's always been important for me to empower people,
• 46:30
  right? To I mean, I don't believe in giving people gratuitous accolades if they don't
• 46:39
  deserve it. But, but, but, you know, recognizing a job well done,
• 46:45
  giving credit where credit is due and, and building people up.
• 46:51
  Because sometimes people start in a role with an organization,
• 46:53
  including ours, and they don't have a lot of self-confidence. And sometimes that lack of
• 46:57
  self-confidence is partly related to the disability.
• 47:01
  Right?
• 47:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 47:02
  Frank Smith: And kind of beaten down over time and told that you can't do things,
• 47:06
  you know, that they very clearly can with support.
• 47:09
  So I've also always tried to empower people, try to make the job fun,
• 47:14
  you know, like working within the organization fun.
• 47:17
  We have this phrase that we use quite, quite regularly meets team is the best team.
• 47:24
  And say that we say that fairly often to one another,
• 47:27
  right? To support one another.
• 47:29
  And and that helps. That helps too.
• 47:32
  I think that's, that's another reason why I've been around as long as I have is because
• 47:37
  I really, I'm passionate about the issues and I'm passionate about working with people and,
• 47:43
  and building them up and empowering them.
• 47:46
  And that's always been critical for me in, in everything that I do.
• 47:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: These are wonderful motivating words from someone like yourself.
• 47:58
  And I do want to thank you for having, you know,
• 48:01
  been around having really been a great foundation for so many people.
• 48:08
  Like I said, I mentioned Jennison and Anthony,
• 48:11
  but I know that there are other people as well,
• 48:13
  many others. I want to thank you for for this interview.
• 48:18
  And if you ever wanted to come back at any time to talk about anything.
• 48:23
  I know we didn't touch on your music, but I'd like to touch on that at some point
• 48:28
  in time in the near future.
• 48:30
  I'm going to end this recording now, but I wanted to.
• 48:34
  I'm now. So I'd like to ask you this question.
• 48:40
  You and I had discussed my camp retreat possibility,
• 48:45
  you know, this thing has taken off in, in, in a way that I did not expect in that my
• 48:52
  camp is now entitled believing is achieving and that's fantastic.
• 48:59
  Yeah. Thank you. It has turned into giving seminars and workshops and sessions on a day
• 49:08
  camps. And I'm still very much interested in having some sort of camp retreat.
• 49:16
  And we do have the facilities at Camp Massawippi.
• 49:19
  But we have to find ways to attract participants and to fundraise.
• 49:26
  Should it be you? I could be should be talking to before you leave.
• 49:30
  Or should I be talking to the new person?
• 49:33
  Frank Smith: Well, it depends on when you have communications available you can share with
• 49:38
  us. Certainly, you know, we're happy to to share using our various
• 49:44
  platforms. Yeah. Any kind of a good initiative that that could,
• 49:50
  could have the participation of people that we represent.
• 49:53
  Right? Yeah. That includes, of course, we, you know,
• 49:56
  we think, you know, I think very early on, we were more narrowly focused on the academic
• 50:02
  experience. Yeah. But we have increasingly focused on the important as importance as
• 50:11
  well of campus life and inclusion in, in all different things at,
• 50:16
  you know, at university and college, but also in the community.
• 50:22
  And it includes recreational activities.
• 50:24
  I love swimming, for example, I'm at the Carlton.
• 50:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yeah.
• 50:27
  Frank Smith: Almost every day. And I feel like, you know we,
• 50:33
  we know that, that students with disabilities,
• 50:38
  like participating in a broad range of things,
• 50:41
  you know, I, I've got music that I'm passionate about.
• 50:45
  There are lots of other young people in our community who are passionate about music or
• 50:51
  passionate about the sports that they're involved in or any one of a number of things.
• 50:56
  And that includes going to different camps and having those experiences.
• 51:01
  I went to when I was a kid, I went to a camp in Georgian Bay on
• 51:07
  Beausoleil Island, which Camp Kawana, which was a fabulous experience for me.
• 51:14
  I learned how to swim and canoe and learned all sorts of skills.
• 51:19
  I never learned to tie knots to save my life when I was learning sailing.
• 51:26
  But I was cutting a canoe, but terrible in a sailboat,
• 51:31
  and people would actually frequently throw me overboard.
• 51:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, no. Oh, no! Oh, God.
• 51:38
  Frank Smith: Knots. I learned to tie my shoes, but I couldn't.
• 51:41
  I couldn't learn all the complicated knots that are required.
• 51:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 51:44
  Frank Smith: You're a sailor.
• 51:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, so if I could find some time in the next week,
• 51:53
  because I'm traveling from August the 10th, I will have Wi-Fi access while I'm gone.
• 52:00
  But I'd like to talk to you and your your successor about this.
• 52:05
  Frank Smith: Sure.
• 52:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When is a good time to talk to you?
• 52:09
  Like when are your best times?
• 52:12
  Frank Smith: It really depends on the week.
• 52:14
  Donna.
• 52:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 52:17
  Frank Smith: Give me a couple of dates and times and and that work for you,
• 52:22
  and then we'll go from there.
• 52:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will do that shortly.
• 52:26
  I'll send out some availability to you.
• 52:28
  And, you know, like I said, the dimensions of my original approach that
• 52:34
  you have changed drastically, but I still.
• 52:39
  Yeah. Well, the thing is, Frank, because I grew up in Montreal,
• 52:43
  my heart belongs to Montreal.
• 52:45
  And I've always wanted to give something back to the,
• 52:49
  the, the guys in Montreal, especially the Montreal Association for the
• 52:53
  blind. It's a passion of mine, a dream of mine.
• 52:57
  And. And I would like to see if we could work together to make this happen in some way,
• 53:02
  shape or form. Right.
• 53:05
  Frank Smith: Well, let's have that conversation again.
• 53:07
  Yeah, let me know when you're available.
• 53:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I will send out. I will send some availability to you in the next few minutes.
• 53:15
  But again, this was an enlightening conversation.
• 53:20
  Frank Smith: Thank you so much. You made it a great conversation with you.
• 53:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I would like to invite you to come back sometime in the next few months to talk about
• 53:28
  your music, because I am engaged in a podcast called Your Mental Stretch with Donna,
• 53:36
  and I'm trying to revitalize this thing to include how does one news use music to help
• 53:44
  relax? So you might be the perfect guest.
• 53:49
  Frank Smith: Well, that. Would be great.
• 53:50
  And you know, I, I came to music because I was going through a health and a mental
• 53:55
  health crisis. I always loved.
• 53:57
  I've got a huge collection of music across genres.
• 54:00
  I've always been a keen listener.
• 54:03
  I've sung along to my favorite albums over the years,
• 54:06
  but it was when I was at my lowest point that I realized I needed to find another.
• 54:12
  Used to be a long distance runner.
• 54:14
  I needed to find another activity, and I ended up taking singing lessons with
• 54:20
  the guy that I went on to to do six albums with.
• 54:25
  That's the. Wow. Are you definitely coming back?
• 54:30
  It was a he was a meditation instructor as well as a music instructor.
• 54:35
  And he also plays crystal balls and stuff.
• 54:38
  So he also did sonic healing.
• 54:41
  So you talk about. And, and so a lot of people with mental health
• 54:45
  struggles would go to Jeremy his, his crystal balls and sonic healing sessions.
• 54:52
  So there's certainly a lot of that connected to the music we ended up doing,
• 54:58
  although I would say it's more rock, progressive rock than most of the music we do
• 55:04
  did together was not exactly you know, new age music or,
• 55:08
  or relaxing with crystal bowls, but it kind of grew out of that experience.
• 55:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think you would be a fine guest for maybe our December thing,
• 55:21
  but that, that that's coming.
• 55:23
  Let me first set up some time for us to have a discussion sometime next week.
• 55:28
  Perfect. Thank you so much.
• 55:31
  And you keep well. Thanks, Frank.
• 55:33
  Frank Smith: I'm glad the storm didn't interrupt our interview this time.
• 55:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my gosh, that was frightening, though.
• 55:38
  When you told me and I heard your wife screaming at you.
• 55:42
  Frank Smith: I did that in the basement.
• 55:43
  Yeah, exactly. But it didn't turn out to be much of anything.
• 55:47
  But we had to wait out the warning.
• 55:50
  And we've had tornadoes come through here in the last few years,
• 55:53
  so we don't it used to be that I, I said, oh yeah,
• 55:57
  sure. That never happens here.
• 55:59
  Well it does. So it's not like you know, you don't have to be in the American Midwest
• 56:06
  to have tornado microburst like that.
• 56:09
  With climate change happening, it's happening everywhere.
• 56:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is. It is. And, you know, climate change is here to stay.
• 56:16
  Except that some people we will not mention names,
• 56:20
  doesn't believe in it.
• 56:22
  Frank Smith: That's the sad reality.
• 56:24
  And that's moving our planet ever closer to its demise,
• 56:29
  I think, sadly. But hopefully we'll be around for a while longer.
• 56:34
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's keep our fingers crossed and look for a note from me in the next few minutes.
• 56:38
  Frank Smith: Great. Thank you Donna.
• 56:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you Frank. It was a pleasure.
• 56:42
  Take care now.
• 56:43
  Frank Smith: Thanks.
• 56:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye bye.
• 56:47
  Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donna@gmail.com.
• 56:54
  Until next time.