Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Katie Woolf spoke with Territory Economic Reconstruction Commission Co-Chair Andrew Liveris.

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Katie Woolf spoke with Territory Economic Reconstruction Commission Co-Chair Andrew Liveris. · 360 with Katie Woolf

0:00
Speaker 1: You're listening to mix one oh four point nine's three sixty. Well,
0:04
Speaker 1: this week we'll see the Territory Economic Reconstruction Commission in
0:07
Speaker 1: Darwin for the first time. The Commission is going to
0:10
Speaker 1: be holding meetings with various industry sectors and business leaders
0:15
Speaker 1: before they deliver a final report to the Chief Minister
0:18
Speaker 1: in two weeks. Joining me in the studio is the
0:22
Speaker 1: co chair of the Commission, Andrew Liverus.
0:24
Speaker 2: Good morning, Hi Katie, nice to be here.
0:26
Speaker 1: Great have you in the studio. Thank you, Andrew. Various
0:29
Speaker 1: meetings are going to be held this week before the
0:32
Speaker 1: report's delivered to the government in two weeks. As I
0:34
Speaker 1: understand it, who will you be meeting with and what
0:37
Speaker 1: information are you hoping to gather?
0:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, obviously being in person is, you know, in
0:43
Speaker 2: the COVID world a real bonus and really appreciate being
0:46
Speaker 2: able to get up here and probably a little late
0:49
Speaker 2: in the game, but certainly we've been tracking through the
0:52
Speaker 2: electronic interactions or the groups we are going to be
0:54
Speaker 2: meeting with, so Team Reinbound, Team Territory, the Industry Association's
0:59
Speaker 2: Industry Groups, NAIF or all the various parties that we've
1:02
Speaker 2: actually had lots of interactions with As you indicated in
1:05
Speaker 2: your intro, we're down to the tail end and so
1:09
Speaker 2: this is really more validation of what we've developed. And
1:12
Speaker 2: you know, you can imagine the report is fairly fairly,
1:15
Speaker 2: fairly complete, and so this is a good check and
1:18
Speaker 2: balance for us to you know, touch and feel if
1:21
Speaker 2: you like the report and the people that have put
1:23
Speaker 2: the submissions in. We did a couple of field trips.
1:26
Speaker 2: Field trip, yes, TV Islands was terrific and I mean
1:29
Speaker 2: for me as a territorian, I was just really blown
1:33
Speaker 2: away with what's happened there over the last decade or two.
1:36
Speaker 2: Lots to do, clearly, you know, but you know it's
1:39
Speaker 2: good to actually be out in the field and actually
1:42
Speaker 2: talk to the people involve the lands councils for example.
1:45
Speaker 2: You know we've had interactions with two lands councils already.
1:48
Speaker 2: More to come. So busy three days, I can.
1:51
Speaker 1: Tell you that I bet it has been and I
1:53
Speaker 1: know that you do get to the Northern Territory fairly regularly.
1:57
Speaker 1: But what have been your thoughts since coming back this
1:59
Speaker 1: time round?
2:00
Speaker 2: Well, so you know, COVID has reset not just the
2:03
Speaker 2: territory but the country and the whole world clearly, you
2:07
Speaker 2: know the dramatic effects of all the big geopolitical trends
2:10
Speaker 2: such as the US elections, such as the ascendency of China,
2:14
Speaker 2: the pandemic and interrupting global supply chains. You know another
2:17
Speaker 2: trends which have been around but just get exacerbated, like
2:20
Speaker 2: climate change and sustainability and digitalization and what's the future
2:24
Speaker 2: of work. You know, the collision of all these trends.
2:27
Speaker 2: I'm a student of them, if you like, I'm almost
2:29
Speaker 2: a graduate of them. And I've been very active with
2:32
Speaker 2: the federal government and of course the territory government to
2:34
Speaker 2: really help the territory and then the federal government, but
2:37
Speaker 2: certainly with my remit here to help the Chief Minister
2:40
Speaker 2: in his ask. He got an a team in the Commission,
2:43
Speaker 2: if I can say that, some really incredible commissioners. We've
2:46
Speaker 2: worked very well together. We bring lots of things to
2:49
Speaker 2: the table about how the territory should actually launch itself
2:53
Speaker 2: post COVID. I think lots of governments are asking the question,
2:56
Speaker 2: lots of countries, and of course the territory needs to
2:59
Speaker 2: go ahead of the game in a way you ask
3:03
Speaker 2: about coming back. This is a time where actually the
3:06
Speaker 2: playing field gets leveled. You should almost forget the size
3:09
Speaker 2: of the territory in terms of its population at this
3:11
Speaker 2: point because actually what is happening with these trends is
3:15
Speaker 2: everyone's having to go to the same starting line and say,
3:18
Speaker 2: in a post COVID world, what's recovery and jobs look like?
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Speaker 2: And can I craft a plan that actually gets the
3:24
Speaker 2: territory ahead ahead of the game in some of its
3:26
Speaker 2: key areas that can compete in And we've been really
3:29
Speaker 2: focused in on that.
3:30
Speaker 1: So taking that into account, how do we get ahead
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Speaker 1: of the game Because previously, when you look at places
3:36
Speaker 1: like Queensland and Western Australia, particularly with things like gas
3:40
Speaker 1: and mining, they have been more open to industry.
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Speaker 2: Well, this has to start and finish with a thought
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Speaker 2: that this opportunity for the territory to be the easiest
3:50
Speaker 2: place in Australia to do business. I'm a business person,
3:53
Speaker 2: I've spent forty three years at Global Business and you
3:56
Speaker 2: know I've written a book about red carpet and red tape.
4:00
Speaker 2: This has to be a red carpet economy here, not
4:02
Speaker 2: a red tape economy, which means we've got to really
4:05
Speaker 2: audit and self evaluate the layers of government, the layers
4:07
Speaker 2: of approvals. I mean, it's really you know, tragic that
4:11
Speaker 2: we haven't had new mining projects in this territory for
4:14
Speaker 2: you know, a decade or so. This is basically you
4:17
Speaker 2: get a reputation with that, so no companies will come
4:20
Speaker 2: to you. So you know, you not only have to
4:22
Speaker 2: obviously remedy the way we approve things, the way we
4:25
Speaker 2: evaluate things, but you also have to get the private
4:28
Speaker 2: sector and the public sector to be true partners. The
4:30
Speaker 2: solution I found around the world is that where we
4:33
Speaker 2: can get true public private partnerships, and the Chief Minister
4:36
Speaker 2: is welcoming that idea and how to get it done.
4:39
Speaker 2: We're best best in class countries around the world. We've
4:42
Speaker 2: bought them here that nowhere in Australia has this happened effectively.
4:46
Speaker 2: Yet I know the Prime Minister is definitely working on
4:48
Speaker 2: it with his ask of the private sector. Private sector
4:52
Speaker 2: can't be single company focus, has to be sectorial focus.
4:55
Speaker 2: So you got you can't speak your book, You've got
4:58
Speaker 2: to actually come to the view that it's actually all
5:00
Speaker 2: of industry, all of the sectors. And so that particularly
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Speaker 2: opportunity brings the territory to a place that I can
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Speaker 2: get ahead of the game.
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Speaker 1: Andrew, I know that you and the others on the
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Speaker 1: Commission will certainly be delivering a report which aims to
5:13
Speaker 1: give the Chief Minister and the Public Service a roadmap.
5:17
Speaker 1: I guess you'd call it to deliver those things and
5:19
Speaker 1: to make it easier for industry to do business. But
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Speaker 1: it may be a tough and cumbersome ask to get
5:27
Speaker 1: the people that maybe haven't been doing that for some
5:30
Speaker 1: time to actually change the way that they're doing things.
5:33
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I can say that generationally, and definitely that
5:37
Speaker 2: includes you. The generation coming through is actually very anxious
5:41
Speaker 2: for that to happen. We can't sit on the laurels
5:44
Speaker 2: of our previous accomplishments. The analogy I give often is
5:47
Speaker 2: do you drive a car with a rear view mirror
5:49
Speaker 2: only or do you look through the windshield? And looking
5:51
Speaker 2: through the windshield is a mindset shift to your point
5:53
Speaker 2: that involves everyone in the car. If I use the
5:55
Speaker 2: analogy a little further, that's not just the civil service,
5:58
Speaker 2: but as I've just mentioned, the private sector and oh,
6:00
Speaker 2: by the way, the small medium enterprises that are the
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Speaker 2: ecosystem of innovation in most countries. You know, an israel
6:07
Speaker 2: a Silicon Valley a Singapore. Why not here? The talent
6:12
Speaker 2: and capabilities of the territory are huge. I've been super
6:15
Speaker 2: impressed with the people that we've been interacting with. They
6:18
Speaker 2: want it to be a better place to do business.
6:20
Speaker 2: And in fact, if you can actually make it the
6:21
Speaker 2: best place to do business, you'll attract people. And why
6:25
Speaker 2: not now? And by the way, the oft heralded statement,
6:28
Speaker 2: we're very close to one of the largest, if not
6:30
Speaker 2: the largest market in the world, but we've never taken
6:32
Speaker 2: advantage of it. So let's get the sectors, mining, agriculture, defense,
6:38
Speaker 2: gas and gas based industries, solar and renewables. Let's get
6:42
Speaker 2: these sectors and triple down on them, and get the
6:45
Speaker 2: small medium enterprises, the government sector to basically embrace the change. Yes,
6:51
Speaker 2: you're right, mindset shift on steroids.
6:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like it. It sounds as it's going
6:56
Speaker 1: to need to see a real shift. Are they the
6:59
Speaker 1: industries as well that we're really going to be looking
7:00
Speaker 1: at here? I mean, we talk a lot about gas
7:02
Speaker 1: and about mining, but also agriculture, aquaculture. It sounds as though,
7:07
Speaker 1: you know, there's no limit, there.
7:09
Speaker 2: Is no limit other than our human capacity to get
7:12
Speaker 2: it all done, so the roadmap will speak to priorities
7:16
Speaker 2: on those sectors, and the pretty much are most of
7:18
Speaker 2: the sectors. There's a couple of others, but certainly what
7:20
Speaker 2: we're basically saying here this is not about one project
7:23
Speaker 2: or three projects or ten projects. We've got to stop
7:26
Speaker 2: this in out mindset. You know, get a project, mobilize
7:30
Speaker 2: a workforce, workforce leaves that is destabilizing. To building an
7:35
Speaker 2: ecosystem of supply chains, you've got to actually put a
7:38
Speaker 2: programmic address to sectors and prioritize them and recognize you
7:41
Speaker 2: can't get it all done in one day or one
7:44
Speaker 2: year or three years. A rolling view to three to
7:47
Speaker 2: five year plans is how the private sector works. So
7:50
Speaker 2: transformation for a twenty thirty timeframe, that's the mindset. We
7:53
Speaker 2: were told to look at a forty billion dollar economy
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Speaker 2: by that period of time, increasing the GDP growth rate
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Speaker 2: the territory and punch above its weight and literally look
8:03
Speaker 2: at the growth sectors that we can actually double and
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Speaker 2: triple down on, and then look at the barriers and
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Speaker 2: the barriers need enablers and the enablers on funding and financing,
8:11
Speaker 2: the enablers on infrastructure, the enablers on skills in human
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Speaker 2: capital and the enablers on regulation. We dove into all
8:18
Speaker 2: of those and have firm recommendations on how to get
8:21
Speaker 2: them fixed.
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Speaker 1: All right, talking about priorities, which are the industries that
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Speaker 1: realistically we need to get stuck into first.
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Speaker 2: So one of the ways I can answer that is
8:29
Speaker 2: to actually say the sectors I've just already talked about,
8:33
Speaker 2: not to repeat, but certainly within those sectors there's sub sectors.
8:36
Speaker 2: And in the next three years we have over three
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Speaker 2: hundred submissions into the Commission. It's a phenomenal response. We
8:43
Speaker 2: are not picking winners and losers, but we are actually
8:45
Speaker 2: giving the Chief Minister and his implementation team a mechanism
8:48
Speaker 2: to choose how to actually go and get funding from
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Speaker 2: the federal government, also from good debt. The way this
8:56
Speaker 2: is all gets going to get funded, by the way,
8:57
Speaker 2: is debt based, and you use Nathan the finance agencies
9:02
Speaker 2: out of the federal government. The federal government has put
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Speaker 2: a program in place that it basically is across the
9:07
Speaker 2: country to actually leak the country forward on these industries
9:11
Speaker 2: in these sectors. So guess what the federal government's moving.
9:14
Speaker 2: Federal government has jurisdiction over us let's get some of
9:16
Speaker 2: that and so we'll prioritize. And within that prioritization, I
9:20
Speaker 2: personally have participated in a review of a dozen projects
9:23
Speaker 2: that we can bring over the line. And if we
9:25
Speaker 2: can bring some of these projects over the line and
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Speaker 2: the sectors you just talked about, fix the funding and
9:29
Speaker 2: get several in the pipeline, you're going to seek quicker
9:32
Speaker 2: action than you think. Really, it is all about implementation
9:36
Speaker 2: and accountability and transparency, and I'm convinced the Chief Minister
9:39
Speaker 2: is very determined to do that.
9:41
Speaker 1: Well, I think they've got no choice at this point.
9:43
Speaker 1: You know, the budget was handed down last week. We
9:45
Speaker 1: have got huge levels of debt and everybody understands that
9:48
Speaker 1: you do need to take some risks to be able
9:51
Speaker 1: to get ourselves out of this situation. But you know,
9:53
Speaker 1: we've heard time and time again from the government that
9:55
Speaker 1: you can't cut your way out of this situation. They've
9:58
Speaker 1: got to obviously bring industry to territory. So we are
10:02
Speaker 1: all really waiting to see exactly what comes out of
10:06
Speaker 1: the report and what tacked the government takes. So the
10:11
Speaker 1: report is going to be handed down in two weeks time, yes,
10:14
Speaker 1: but realistically we've got a fairly fair idea of the
10:17
Speaker 1: different industries that we're going to be looking towards. And
10:21
Speaker 1: what you're saying this morning is that we can expect
10:23
Speaker 1: some action sooner than we think.
10:25
Speaker 2: I think so and I really you know, coming up
10:27
Speaker 2: here and being in person, you can see the passion
10:31
Speaker 2: And of course to your point, what would you do
10:33
Speaker 2: if you didn't do this? I mean fundamentally, if you
10:36
Speaker 2: think about COVID world and the decline and the economic
10:38
Speaker 2: activity around the world, you think about the supply chain interruptions,
10:41
Speaker 2: you think about on shoring, which is a new thought
10:44
Speaker 2: for Australia. Let's bring some of that sovereign capabily on
10:47
Speaker 2: shore and why not the territory l like defense. So
10:50
Speaker 2: this is the time to put good debt. There's good
10:53
Speaker 2: debt and bad debt. Bad debt means you borrow money
10:55
Speaker 2: and you put in unproductive uses, taking money and putting
10:59
Speaker 2: into risk manager tivities where we're good at you could
11:01
Speaker 2: actually get returns on that debt. That's a very known
11:04
Speaker 2: model in private equity world. So let's take it on.
11:07
Speaker 1: One of the things that we've spoken about before is gas. Now.
11:10
Speaker 1: I know that the Gratton Institute they released a report
11:13
Speaker 1: on Monday, largely rejecting the Morrison government so the Prime
11:17
Speaker 1: Minister's plan for a gas led economic recovery, saying it
11:21
Speaker 1: will fail to lower prices or stimulate major manufacturing jobs,
11:26
Speaker 1: rekindling a debate over the role of the gas in
11:29
Speaker 1: the role of gas in the energy sector. I mean,
11:32
Speaker 1: what would you say to that commentary? And really what
11:36
Speaker 1: would you say following on from that Gratin Institute report?
11:39
Speaker 1: I mean, is the future gas or are we going
11:42
Speaker 1: down the wrong path here?
11:43
Speaker 2: We're going down the right path with gas. The Gatin
11:45
Speaker 2: Institute is indicative of something I've seen around the world.
11:48
Speaker 2: These are a bunch of theoreticians and academics that have
11:51
Speaker 2: never operated anything, never run a business. They're actually totally theorists.
11:56
Speaker 2: And guess what they do. They're generate models. And what
11:58
Speaker 2: does goes into a model? Are assumptions? Tell me about assumptions.
12:01
Speaker 2: What assumptions are you using? Of course, the gas price
12:04
Speaker 2: is high in Australia. We don't produce the gas for
12:06
Speaker 2: on shore. We sell it all overseas. Think about this.
12:09
Speaker 2: Ninety five percent of the gas producer in this country,
12:11
Speaker 2: including here in Darwin, is shipped overseas. It's converted to
12:16
Speaker 2: finished products. That this whole studio is full of gas
12:19
Speaker 2: based products. I can go around the room and point
12:21
Speaker 2: them out to you, but I won't bore you. So
12:24
Speaker 2: please understand the gas converts to useful products for modern
12:27
Speaker 2: science and monument and we import all the finished products.
12:30
Speaker 2: We export the jobs. What country in the world would
12:33
Speaker 2: leave the jobs in the ground A or B export them.
12:37
Speaker 2: Let's get real. I run businesses for forty three years.
12:41
Speaker 2: I have a little bit more credibility than some think
12:43
Speaker 2: tank that thinks and understands things based on financial model.
12:46
Speaker 2: I think all their assumptions are flawed and by the way,
12:49
Speaker 2: I think their conclusions attainted for where they sit in
12:51
Speaker 2: the spectra environmental activists, I'm an environmentalist. I believe in
12:55
Speaker 2: net zero twenty fifty. I believe in emissions reduction. I
12:58
Speaker 2: believe the pathway to get there is to get out
13:00
Speaker 2: of coal, to get out of high CO two emissions.
13:03
Speaker 2: And for those fossil fuels like gas that are more
13:06
Speaker 2: emissions friendly, how about carbon capture and storage. Let's develop
13:09
Speaker 2: technology roadmaps to answer the question of COO two emissions.
13:12
Speaker 2: And by the way, forestry offsets and oh, by the way,
13:16
Speaker 2: building a gas pipeline grid to allow hydrogen to come
13:19
Speaker 2: when it's affordable. And oh, by the way, to build
13:21
Speaker 2: gas fired powerstations that affirming power until batteries are affordable.
13:25
Speaker 2: If that sounds like common sense, it is. And oh,
13:27
Speaker 2: by the way, the US is doing it, Europe is
13:29
Speaker 2: doing it, Japan's doing it, China's doing it, and Australia
13:32
Speaker 2: wants to not develop its own gas. Makes no sense.
13:36
Speaker 1: Andrew, we're running out of time, but I do really
13:38
Speaker 1: quickly want to ask you about the American election and
13:41
Speaker 1: the impact that it could have here in Australia. Obviously,
13:43
Speaker 1: we know that you've done work for both sides of
13:46
Speaker 1: the political spectrum in the US, but obviously it is
13:50
Speaker 1: looking as though Joe Biden is in. Is this going
13:53
Speaker 1: to be a good thing for the Northern territory, particularly
13:55
Speaker 1: when you talk about our defense presence here and our
13:58
Speaker 1: military presence, I guess it's yeah.
14:00
Speaker 2: I would start with the thought that where you'd ended
14:03
Speaker 2: up on your question that the US I've lived in
14:06
Speaker 2: and seen now for a couple of decades, presidents from
14:09
Speaker 2: Clinton to Bush to Obama to Trump and the vice
14:13
Speaker 2: president of the President of Likeke Biden. The Australian psychology
14:16
Speaker 2: around the US has to be one of equality on security,
14:21
Speaker 2: defense and market. We shouldn't be lauding the fact that
14:24
Speaker 2: they have a surplus with US. We should actually have
14:27
Speaker 2: a trade balance where we sell more to them than
14:29
Speaker 2: they sell to us. That relationship needs a calibration based
14:32
Speaker 2: on technology and based on innovation, based on value add
14:36
Speaker 2: They don't see us that way. They see it as
14:38
Speaker 2: a very strong partner in this part of the world.
14:40
Speaker 2: So security defense matters. We need to develop innovation ecosystems
14:44
Speaker 2: where they can attract them like US money goes to Israel,
14:47
Speaker 2: US money goes to other parts of the world like
14:50
Speaker 2: Germany and Singapore. We need to build that capability you
14:52
Speaker 2: want to coming here. The Prime Minister is very very
14:55
Speaker 2: much doing that with a modern manufacturing initiative. The modern
14:58
Speaker 2: manufacturing initiative needs to find its way to Darwin. I'd
15:01
Speaker 2: like to see some innovation ecosystems here with American money
15:04
Speaker 2: and American partnerships. The Americans want to partner with Australia.
15:08
Speaker 2: The Five Eyes binds US. We have to diversify away
15:11
Speaker 2: from China. Are US under President leg Biden will actually
15:15
Speaker 2: make that accelerate. They love Australia. I've worked with the
15:18
Speaker 2: Vice President when he's under the Obarment and Registration on
15:21
Speaker 2: the Manufacturing Council. He's pro Australia. We need to develop
15:24
Speaker 2: that relationship immediately to its next level of investment and
15:28
Speaker 2: innovation on green energy, on supply chains, and on course
15:33
Speaker 2: keeping China in check, which I think we can do
15:37
Speaker 2: without the bellicose way we've been doing it lately.
15:39
Speaker 1: Andrew, we've run out of time, just very quickly closing
15:42
Speaker 1: thoughts on the Northern Territory and where you see us
15:46
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, just ten years down the track.
15:50
Speaker 2: Australia is well known and the territory in particular is
15:53
Speaker 2: known for the underdog status. You know. We like to
15:56
Speaker 2: consider ourselves as punching above our weight and really going
15:59
Speaker 2: out in the world well seen and doing great things.
16:01
Speaker 2: And we have that in so many different fields. The
16:04
Speaker 2: territory needs to grow out of its inferiority complex. The
16:07
Speaker 2: territory needs to woman up and man up and actually
16:11
Speaker 2: say I can become an economic powerhouse as part of
16:16
Speaker 2: the Asian ecosystem, not just talk about it, but actually
16:20
Speaker 2: take firm, bold steps and by doing so attract people
16:24
Speaker 2: to come and live here. I've spent what forty eight
16:27
Speaker 2: hours here? Whatever, it's been. The pride of Territorians is overwhelming.
16:32
Speaker 2: And you know the old definition. How do you actually
16:35
Speaker 2: what's in a Territorian? You have to be born and
16:36
Speaker 2: bred here or can you immigrate here and spend ten
16:39
Speaker 2: twenty thirty years in Whitter? It doesn't matter. People here
16:42
Speaker 2: really can get it done, so for me, this is
16:45
Speaker 2: our time. Actually, don't want to sound like glib and trite.
16:48
Speaker 2: It is the time to get it done well.
16:50
Speaker 1: Andrew liveris a co chair of the Territory Economic Reconstruction Commission.
16:55
Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time this morning. Thanks so much for
16:57
Speaker 1: coming in and having a chat with us. Thank you, Katie,
16:59
Speaker 1: happy to be thank you, thank you. You are listening
17:02
Speaker 1: to MIXWANO four point nine's three sixty