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Oklahoma Homecoming · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome to System Speak, a podcast about Complex Trauma and Dissociation. It's our story, our learning, and the ideas we've been working with as they've unfolded over time. Earlier episodes give context for where we are now, and current episodes may engage more advanced material, harder content, or reference earlier conversations. A few things to remember as you listen. The podcast is education, reflection, and storytelling.
• 0:41
  It's not therapy, and listening doesn't create a relationship. Although I am a therapist, I am not in that role here, and nothing that I share is individualized clinical advice. Every system, every internal world, all of your own stories are all different and you take up your own shape. What we share about ours won't translate directly to yours. It isn't meant to.
• 1:06
  We're all different, and all of our stories matter. As always, take care of yourself during and after listening. We are so glad you're here.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Why did this happen?
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna record it. Everything. Is that okay? Yeah. I'm here.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: I can't believe it.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I can't believe it. Surprise.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: I am completely surprised.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Right? I'm surprised too.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. You said you had told me that Sunday night you would know what your schedule was and when you'd be able to come home. You were a punk sometimes.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: She was talking to you at the airport. What?
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: In the car about to go in the airport.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. I'm so glad to have you
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: home. Surprise.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: But here, home.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah. Can you believe it? Barely. I'm so excited.
• 2:11
  So earthquakes are awful.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And you got to be there for one of the big ones. Yeah.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That was part of what was tricky is that there were some, and then there were more.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: And it was really scary.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: All I could think was that if I got squashed, my mom would have been laughing at me so hard for all the dead mom jokes I've made about her getting squashed.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. It's true.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: So my stories are just mostly horrific and not anything good to share. How are you?
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, my stories are also horrific and not good to share.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Tell me.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: But emotionally rather than physically.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Are you comfortable enough?
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: I am taking off my socks.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Come visit with me. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry.
• 3:13
  I'm so excited.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: I'm not. It's like when we met for the first time.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's a song. Is that a song?
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: It is now.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay. Tell me everything that I missed. I haven't been here two months, three months
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Something like that.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: And left eight months ago. You were gone two years before that, and I was gone three months before that. So it's been, like, three years. High five.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: No. I don't think that deserves any fives at all.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: It's not funny. I'm sorry. Still? Yeah.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: Because it turns out you're still amazing.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Oh goodness.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Talking and I said, you know, Emily has this, like, social network site online. She's like, oh, yeah. I signed up for you.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: It was her.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: It was her. And she said, yeah. Dad told me to. He said he said, did you know Emma has, like, a social network where she has, like, support groups and classes and stuff? You should sign up for it.
• 4:32
  And Chris just said, so she did, and she's never done anything with it. But she did sign up. And she said dad said he was gonna sign up too, but he never
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: did. What?
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: I don't think he actually understands what the site is about.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: So your sister, I think, actually got kicked off because since she didn't join the groups, it automatically deleted her.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: So sorry for that, sister. But how does your dad know about it?
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: I think he was just googling you at some point just because he loves you and he wants to know about you. Not like creepy stuttering.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: I feel like if your dad was googling me and read about me on the temple of Satan site
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: I don't think he I don't think he browsed
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: the temple of worse than when you all moved my books and found all the lesbian stuff.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: No. I don't know what his search process was, and he probably doesn't even remember. He did it at this point. But, I mean, knowing it's my dad, he's not really an invasion of privacy guy. Like, he's not trying to track down scary stuff about you.
• 5:46
  He's just like, well, something else to learn about.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: No. It doesn't bother me yet. Doesn't bother me at all. What I was concerned about, was it drama because of gossip?
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Or was it he just found it?
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: I think he just found it.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Did he find it because someone told him or did he just find it because he found it? So knowing how your sister found it, like, helps me track that down and, like, settle my nerves. Yeah. Like, it's totally fine because it's just me, and it's just, like Yeah. Authentic.
• 6:20
  And we're doing our best, but I didn't know what he thought about it. So it totally doesn't bother me if your family is listening. And, also, we can't stop them. It's in the public. But it was the tracking down of just how did they find out that I was curious about.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Someone from the church in a like, not these wards, but a whole different ward. I'll tell you the name later. Do you remember this girl that used to be in our ward when we lived in a different place? When I got my cochlear implants, she brought me this salad that was my best salad I've ever had in my whole life and had pomegranates in it. And the old school blog Yeah.
• 7:10
  Was the picture.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: Of the salad? Yes.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Because it was the best salad of my whole life. And, anyway, her mother has been diagnosed with DID.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: So that's part of why I don't wanna say who, but also it's not in this ward or this area or anywhere else. It's from someplace else. But, anyway, they found it, and I appreciated that they were honest. They messaged me on the community and was like, hey. Found your podcast, and I think I know who you are.
• 7:40
  And I was like, oh, that doesn't feel good to me. Does that feel good to you? And we just had a conversation about it. Like, okay. What are our boundaries gonna be?
• 7:50
  Does that feel safe? Do you feel safe? And so I had a good conversation with her about it, and I'm actually comfortable with it. Good. So I'm okay with it.
• 8:00
  And even if people locally, like, maybe someone told your dad. I don't know.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: My dad doesn't really see anybody.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But where is it advertised that I do classes and stuff? I have no idea. Also, I found your sister's name on the community, like, ages ago. Uh-huh.
• 8:26
  It's not even still there. So this was a long time ago.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: Yes. She had said originally that he was going to sign up too, but he just never did.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: That's so adorable.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: He was trying to be supportive.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: He's so kind. Love him. How's he feeling, by the way?
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: He's been worn down by the struggle that is caring for mom when she doesn't want to be cared for, but also can't do anything without Help. Yeah.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: How did it go with your sisters here?
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: It went fine. Every everything went pretty smooth as far as I can tell. It was I thought it was a good week. I took the kids over over as often as I could so that they could see them as well.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I heard that Maisie was not impressed with the extra company.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. I'm so embarrassed by Maisie. She barks at strangers now. She's she's made this weird shift where she's much, much more attached to me. Like, when they let her out of her crate, it doesn't matter who's standing there.
• 9:38
  She runs to me first. When I go to the bathroom, she sits outside the door. She sometimes just doesn't eat because she wants to follow me around. That's really the kind of relationship I had avoided.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Now you got a buddy.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: One more Codependent high strung dog.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Ingrid, we may need assistance.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Also, she's biting kids more and more. It is pretty much every single time because she has growled at them and they have not changed what they are doing.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: That would do it. There's too many people in the house for her. Is that it?
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think so. Also, some of those people believe that interacting with Maisie is based on, shouting her name into her face over and over or speaking really loud in a high squeaky voice or, you know, lots of things that would make me run and hide in a crate.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you were gonna say would make you bite their faces.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: Maybe.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: But since we're not allowed to, it's nice that Maisie offers natural consequences. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: And she loves like, she's obsessed with writing in the car. If I don't roll down the window, she cries. That includes if it's below freezing outside. She just wants the window down or else she will cry. She cries whenever I drop children off at some place rather.
• 11:14
  She cries when she recognizes a location where children have been dropped off. So even if we're going to pick them up, she will start crying as soon as she sees it.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I also cry when we have to pick up children. Oh my goodness. Well, guess what? What? I am on leave for your mom's surgery.
• 11:42
  I get to be here for two weeks after surgery.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: So I'm on that weird schedule thing where I still have to keep doing my work, and I have to stay on my schedule. And it's full of appointments, so, like, I can't mess up. There's no flexibility. But, at least I get to be here. Yeah.
• 12:08
  We can we can talk later more about like, your mom is having brain surgery. That's legit.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I'm glad they kind of have finally figured out what's wrong because it's been, like, two years we've been trying to get answers. And I'm still not convinced about the other things. But if this is helping, then this is helping. And so, now that she is finally maybe almost agreed to maybe walk in the doors and possibly have the actual surgery that is scheduled, I will be here for two weeks after that.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: So this was the confusion I couldn't talk about on the phone because there was too much and, you know, earthquakes and satellite phones and all of this. But this is why we have to go ahead and get Alex transferred back.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: Oh, because he would be here longer.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Because it would be too long for him to be out of school even virtually. So we can transfer him back just by default. I've talked to him. He's okay with it so far. We'll see how things go.
• 13:12
  And then that also gives us a window of time. Has he matured enough and doing well enough that he feels safe and comfortable and can function and he can stay? Does he need to go? We'll figure all of those things out in the next couple weeks, but at least I get to be here a little while.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Cha cha cha.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: Cha cha cha.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: You said a package had arrived, so I assumed it was Amazon.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: It was me. It was you. Except then well, I had a plan to not bother the children tonight to where you would come out and you would see it was me, and then you could open the garage and I could come in the back door to the closet. That was my plan to not bother anyone or Maisie. But, no, none of that worked because no one was answering the door or responding or also then Alex and Maisie had seen me anyway.
• 14:10
  So I was like, okay. Gig is up. I'm gonna go kiss all my babies. Yeah. Kiri did not wake up.
• 14:18
  Mary did not wake up. Barrett may or may not remember waking up. Amber may or may
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: not That's okay.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Remember waking up, but Kirk and Alex did. Kirk was amazing. He was like, I thought he's gonna break my neck. Don't you?
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: So excited.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: How sweet is that?
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: He's been so good. Like, I know that when I'm not watching, he's a punk. I am very well aware of this. But, also, over the past couple days no. Over the past week, when I've asked people to clean things up and take care of things, especially, like, the general chores that are assigned to everybody, he's the one who's done them.
• 14:58
  Like, he's been loading the dishwasher. He worked on cleaning up the table and the living room, and, like, he's really been working hard at it even when I haven't, like, reminded him or anything. I've been so grateful.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Good for him. Maybe we can make sure he gets to do something fun with you since I'm here to help tend to the other kids. Yeah. I would love to. We can also see what my work schedule is like.
• 15:23
  And if you need to go take care of dad just while I'm here. Do I need to stay? I don't know how bad things are or how difficult things are. We'll figure it out in the next couple weeks. But Okay.
• 15:36
  I know tonight they don't even know I'm here yet, and so there's that. But we can get you over there and stay with them a bit and have a kid break if if that's helpful. But I I you'll have to get them off to school because Does it work? But I'll try to not lose money for being here. Does that make sense?
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. We need to figure out placement for where you're gonna work so that I'm not disrupting.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We'll do that. What about your heart? I don't mean your physical heart.
• 16:25
  Emotionally, how are things going? You've been talking to your little boy.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah. We've been going through some deep stuff just like old old heartache that's been festering for a long time. Not like romantic heartache, just feelings of loneliness and inadequacy. I was gonna send you, a new dream on my email tonight. Did I I haven't sent you this dream yet, I don't think.
• 17:01
  Did I?
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Tell me.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: About the play?
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Not that one. No.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: Okay. So
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: You have the best dreams.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: I've had a lot lately. So this particular dream, you and I were going to see a play that was being performed in someone's living room. So they just had, like, chairs lined around the edges of the room, and and the play was being performed by some children, but they were amazing. They were, like, professional quality performance level. It was it was really good.
• 17:33
  So the story was kind of about two girls who were maybe six and eight, and they come to play with their friend who's a boy who's 10. And he has some older teenage brothers that were in the other room that were sort of a looming threat because they weren't necessarily very fun to play with. And, in this living room, the girls were pouring some water, I guess, for their refreshments or something, and dropped this big glass pitcher which shattered into tiny pieces. And their friend started panicking like he was just freaking out because he knew they were gonna get in trouble. The girls felt bad.
• 18:21
  They knew it was an accident, but they felt like what they needed to do was try and make things better as best they could. So they were trying to pick up the pieces of glass and and fix the problem. And then the teenage brothers came in because of the noise and started, like, belittling the girls and and freaking out and shouting at them and everything. So it was kind of unpleasant. And then there was some sort of break.
• 18:50
  And I turned to you, and I started signing things so that we could discuss things privately without bothering the people around us. And I was sharing some things that I noticed. The first thing I noticed was the children, the two little girls, did not have the, like, the physical dexterity to pick up the glass very well, and they didn't have the mental awareness to notice all the pieces of glass. And so my first thought was, I really had the wrong expectations for children when they were little. Like, I would have expect no.
• 19:29
  I wouldn't have ex I wouldn't have had our children pick up glass. But, like, cleaning things, you think, oh, well, you miss why are you missing these things? You can clearly see them. Or, you know, why can you not do this thing correctly? And I felt so bad for having held our children to unrealistic standards when they were little and their brains and their bodies were still so undeveloped.
• 19:55
  But then the other thing, which I think I came out of the dream at this point because I was analyzing the dream itself, I was thinking about the dream as being me. Right?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: You play all the parts.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: I do play all the parts. So this was a performance set up specifically for me to learn something. And what I saw was that if I am all of those children, that when I make a mistake, that is a perfectly reasonable kind of mistake for a human being to make. That part of me feels bad and wants to fix it, but the rest of me either freaks out or belittles myself, making everything harder instead of supporting it. And that I need to be more willing to ask for help and have more compassion towards myself as I make mistakes.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, applying that's gonna be the hard part, but that's what that seemed like to me.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: That's huge. So what does that look like asking for help?
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Well, if I knew that, I wouldn't be in therapy.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Do you need me to come home to stay?
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: I, of course, want you to come home to stay, but I don't know if I need you to come home to stay. I don't know. I don't know what's possible as far as living arrangements and what we can do and employment and childcare and everything else that has to happen.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Alex.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Alex.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: And Amber's in crisis somehow. Let's see what's going on with her. Hers really may just be developmental. So I already plan on having the kids as much as I can through this summer. Yeah.
• 22:14
  And it will be tricky because I do need to work. I can't just take off the summer and hang out with them or we will starve to death and lose housing. So I do still have to work, but she may just need time together. And she's one who is so, so quiet. For her to say so explicitly the last time that she came to see me of I need to just stay.
• 22:46
  It's hard for me to not hear that or to delay that care, and that is part of what I'm concerned. Because it's not like the other kids who just always wanna do the fun things or always wanna do this. For her to like you, for her to say out loud, this is what I need is kind of a big deal.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: So the insight that's coming to me specifically as we're talking right now, I had not thought of this before. I think it is a combination of a developmental shift that she is having and her relationship with her siblings, except for Kirk. Well, I guess kind of with Kirk too. She has such a tender heart and such bad boundaries that I'm pretty sure everybody just pushes her around all the time.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: So she's spent?
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: I think she's spent. I think she doesn't know how to set boundaries because that makes her feel bad.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Is that why she gets the mean streak? Like, it just builds up and builds up until she guess. Just not she doesn't she's not an explosive. You know, like, some people, their feelings build build up until they just explode in feelings.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: But hers is, push over, push over, push over nasty. But that makes sense. Right? Because it's instead of that vertical of feelings building up until they explode to the sky, that's like her being pushed and pushed and pushed back and then finally pushing forward again. And not that that's okay.
• 24:27
  I don't want her to be mean, but also that's a good point when if she struggles with boundaries. I talk myself in circles all the time. Constant I mean, constantly anyway. Right? It's it's trick see in that the more I work through dissociation and the more aware of things that I become, the harder things get in some ways.
• 24:54
  Because then I'm aware of what's hard and not just making myself not aware of what's hard. Right? So with the kids and home and where to live and all of that, I talk myself in circles because it would be cheapest just to come home, But also, I think, obviously, we were in financial crisis and I needed to go work. Yeah. But I also kinda was in emotional crisis recovering from the pandemic.
• 25:27
  I am in a better place now, I think.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: Good.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I remember when I thought about coming home at Christmas time, I cried because I didn't wanna come home. I wasn't ready. Yeah. And I felt a lot of guilt about that. It wasn't that I didn't wanna see you.
• 25:41
  I didn't wanna see the children. But physically at some sort of cellular level, I could not do it. Yeah. And I was just so, so spent. But I'm glad like, I'm happy to go snuggle them tonight and surprise them that I'm home and to run around the house in the dark and trip over Amber's messy room.
• 26:08
  And
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: the the shelf of paces has collapsed several times, and I think it did again today. So I keep telling them I'm gonna go help sort things Part
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: of it is because Amber started putting things on it.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. I don't doubt that at all. So Plus, I think some of the joints have come apart, and they've just stacked things back on without fixing all the joints.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, anyway, like, I'm so delighted to see them and to run around and to surprise them, and that's so special and sweet. And I will love being home, and I feel better now. Like, I'm in a I'm in a better place. But just I think that it's one of those things where no one prepared us for how hard what we were doing really was.
• 26:58
  And then in the pandemic to lose all of that support and to do it all on our own was just so much. And the recovery has been brutal. And it's hard because, like, part of the circle is I obviously don't wanna abandon the children.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I'm not leaving the family, even even with the gay jokes and even with the legit adding, like, I'm not abandoning the family, but also they need such different things now in trying to like, if I am better and part of my boundaries are caring for me differently, then how can I do that fundamentally so that I'm well enough to help in whatever that is? And part of that is financially, so that takes priority, not because I don't want a parent or because I don't want to spend time with them, but because that's how we have housing and food. And so there's that piece. So in that way, I know I'm doing the right thing because I'm providing for the family in that way. Alex needed to be away.
• 28:24
  It became a safety issue. Yeah. So, like, cognitively, I know it was the right thing to be away because he needed that too. Yeah. It sounds like Amber may need a season of that as well.
• 28:37
  And so does that help enough? Like, talking about you asking for help. Does that help enough, right, safe enough, help enough that it makes life easier for you? Like, does it make a difference for you having one or two kids away?
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Well, having Alex away made an enormous difference.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: It did. Yes. So not we know Alex needed it and that that was good for him. Yeah. But it was also helpful to you aside from kid safety issues, just pragmatically, energy wise.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: Yes. An enormous difference.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: And it seems like Barrett got better and happier too even though he's still Barrett.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And which is fine. We want him to be Barrett. Okay. So there's that. So then I think it's actually the right thing.
• 29:44
  It's helpful. I'm grateful that it's worked out. So just don't move any more puzzle pieces. Let's just keep going. But then also I think I look at numbers on paper.
• 30:00
  Right? Like, part of my brain just sees the numbers on paper. And I think, well, if I move two more kids, like, I brought all the girls plus Alex, then you and Kirk and Barrett could move in with your parents, and we could not pay for this house. Yeah. Except that you have literally just unpacked for the first time in three years.
• 30:25
  Like, you have not unpacked since Kansas City. Not all the way.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: I kind of unpacked in in in the country.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: But you didn't get to live there?
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: I didn't get to live there.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Because as soon as you started unpacking, you went to help your parents.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: And so then that concerns me because it's not just numbers. It's not just the numbers on paper because you have made like, our our we're sitting in the bedroom right now, and the bedroom is completely different than when I lived here. No. That's not a bad thing. It's reflective of you and having a space again.
• 31:08
  And you even though you've been doing hard work in therapy, you've also made a lot of progress. And in some ways, even though you still have hard depression days, you are functioning better than you have in a couple years.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: I feel like I have recovered a lot more than I like, the last year, I think I've recovered a lot from the last nine years of parenting or whatever. Like, it's it's been good.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Well, we were in a constant state of crisis. Yeah. We had the I mean, so this is our is this our eleventh year of marriage? Yeah. Our eleventh year of marriage, our eleventh year of parenting.
• 31:54
  We had when we got married, we had all of those crises from
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Mom dying.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Your hurricane, my parents dying, miscarriages, cancer, 80 foster kids coming and going, coming and going. We had so many kids and felt that prompting to be driven through the wilderness, which I sometimes think if I hadn't, we would have that low house payment now. And when I built my little yellow house and sometimes I really miss it and I know I idealize it, and there's no way we could fit six teenagers in the house. No. Like, it would be awful.
• 32:38
  Plus our neighbor was really scary.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: So, like, I know moving was the right thing. Also, it is because we moved that we got Mary and Kirk Mhmm. And Barrett. So I know that's part of why we moved here, plus being close to your parents whom we love. But we moved here, foster, foster, foster.
• 33:03
  And we had some really intense cases. Here, some of our fostering, we had, like, 11 kids at a time. Then Curier.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Well, Mary's cochlear implants. Kyrie's medical crises.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Which took you out of town for, like, two months.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: And then in and out of hospitals for four years. And then the pandemic. So like, that was, that's literally been our last decade. Yeah. Has been trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, not even counting childhood stuff.
• 33:41
  How are we gonna make this family work? And we've done all of that with, regardless of our situations. One of us has always been with the children.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: And so I feel like we're pulling it off even though it's not ideal. I don't know how other normal families do it.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: I have no idea.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: And so
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: I assume part of it is by not having six children.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: But there are other families
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: in our church. With six kids. There's other that have families. It's all I can think. Either a lot of money or they know all the right charities or what.
• 34:19
  I don't know.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Hopefully. Well, that's the other thing of just I don't wanna just scoop up all the children and take them up north because we would not have that same support that we have here. Yeah. And so it makes sense. Also, politics are really scaring me, and we don't have talk about that right now.
• 34:39
  But, like, there's scary stuff and not just scary things, but, like, that same thing where it can get really scary really fast. Like, I'd I'm tired of walking the precipice Yeah. Of everything.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: Whenever I see weird vinyl decals on the back of someone's truck, I look it up to see if they're part of a militia group. And they're not always, but they're not never.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, anyway, it makes sense that it has taken us time. And I'm grateful that you found a good therapist and that you've done all this work and are starting to feel more recovered from those years of trauma because it really was that intense. It's also fun that the children are turning into people.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Like, that's helpful. So I don't know how. I don't know what to do. I don't know what is helpful. I don't know how to make decisions.
• 35:54
  Kyrie is going to be livid when Amber gets to come back to the other house with me and she does not. I can stall her on her age. I can stall her knowing that we will be back for her baptism. I can stall her for waiting for summer, and then she can come in the summer, but it's gonna be a very delicate conversation. But I think that Amber as much as I wanna hang out with Curie, I think that Amber will not get the space to learn boundaries while Curie is invading her world.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. But just so you know, when you take Amber someplace where she's not surrounded by the chaos of people, I think she may, like, have DT or something. Like, she will go into into withdrawal. She will be clinging to you. Like, anytime I head towards my door, she's like, where are you going?
• 37:01
  Where are you going? I'm like, do you need something? No.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: She's struggling because I left.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: And she needs to be connected, so I'm gonna have to take care of that. I was I was telling my girlfriend that it's easy to have Alex there because he interacts like a robot. Mhmm. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. Sometimes it's literally he's literally acting like a robot.
• 37:25
  But, I mean, because his currency is only like, put the quarter in and that's what comes out. It is not social currency.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: And it is so, like, he literally just needs the structure and the routine. And within that context, he mostly can do okay, but he doesn't want any actual socialness. If she's over and, like, we're playing cards or something, he wants to be the center of attention.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, constantly.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: But it but Amber will be different because Amber is a people Yeah. Or a puppy. And so it will be a different it will not be I can't just what do you need? Put your quarter in, and here you go. It's gonna be a different style of interaction and a different thing.
• 38:23
  But, also, she will learn. I think she has this idea in her head that we just hang out and play all the time and have treats. And she's going to learn that we eat lentils and vegetable soup.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: She doesn't remember you, does she?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: And that I work a lot and that I'm there to work. But if it's for a few weeks to give her that understanding and to help her feel more comfortable and settled and realize that and just get her through school successfully, again, our family is bizarre, and it's completely we're not doing anything in a normal way, but we live in two states. We can figure out the details of that in the next couple of weeks as we K. See how things are going and what's happening. So I will be here two weeks after your mom's surgery, and then I will go back theoretically taking Alex and Amber with me.
• 39:29
  And then Alex, Amber, and I do have tickets to fly back the week before Curie's baptism. Baptism.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Oh, the whole week before?
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Yes. Because it's general conference. Oh, nice. And we wanna I wanted this to all be together for general conference. And so we'll come home, and then my girlfriend will fly the day before the baptism.
• 40:01
  The other my other friend who was supposed to fly down to speak cannot. And I will tell you about sadness. Yeah. It's very sad. And I will tell you about that later.
• 40:13
  She's okay, but she cannot come. K. So we're gonna have to see who can do that other talk. But, anyway so then we have the baptism week, and then I think that the two of us not the two of you. I'm it's so many pieces to show.
• 40:34
  Yeah. So then my girlfriend and I will fly to the ISSTD conference.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And then at the end of the conference, Amber and Alex will fly from here back to the other house. My girlfriend and I will fly from ISSTD conference to the other house, and we actually meet on the connecting flight, and we're on the same flight.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: No. No way.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: So I have all of those tickets.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: K.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: The only other issue about this, and, again, we can talk about it more, is that that's if they come back with me right now before the baptism, then they're gonna be out of school for two weeks. So I might need to be here these two weeks, go back by myself for two weeks, and then be back here for one week, the conference for one week, and then they both go and just transfer at the end of the year
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: That's doable.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: For a month or two. Mhmm. And, like, six weeks until we all come back for summer. Does that make sense? We get so many pieces.
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: It's invisible chess.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Right? It's so much. I'm sorry I invaded your evening to see you can tell me all your stories.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: No. I mean, I don't have a lot of stories because my memory's shot, but, just mean they're wild and
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Feral.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think I struggle with Alex in part because I don't know how to interact with him like a robot.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: He said I had a conversation with him. He asked to do a podcast episode. Mhmm. And he has always remember when he was little and we used to make those videos? Mhmm.
• 42:41
  And if he could watch himself in the video, he could talk about all kinds of things. But if he we were just eye to eye, face to face having a conversation, he couldn't get anything out. Yeah. And so I think that's one reason he likes to do podcasts. I think it's like that kind of thing.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Process.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: So I just put it between us. We sat at the bar not looking at each other. And he said, like, just start addition. Like, he was spilling tea on the podcast. And I was like, buddy, are you sure you want this up?
• 43:12
  And he's like, no. No. They need to learn. I wanna help. We need to make good out of this.
• 43:17
  I'm like, okay.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: If you change your mind. But, and then at the end, he closed the podcast with like, it's okay if you like to use stuffies. It was adorable. It was adorable. But, anyway, now I don't remember what I was gonna tell you.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: Something about communicating with him.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, in that episode, he talked about when we were having that conversation, he talked about being frustrated that he does not understand you. He said, pomp is so hard to understand. He's so hard to talk to. And I thought, how strange is that? Because you're actually so easy to talk to.
• 43:59
  And even, like, people on the podcast, listeners know because they've heard our conversations. So they know that for most of us, that's not an accurate statement. But he's clearly distressed by it. And so I thought it was really interesting because it's the first time I ever heard him put that into words.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: And I think that's part of that disconnect is because you're so good at peopleing, and he can't at all. He cannot. Yeah. So how do we make those interactions more neurodivergent friendly in a way that's meaningful to him but not manipulative by him? And I don't mean that for all neurodivergence.
• 44:46
  I mean, that's an issue he struggles with aside from
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Do you remember when we were, like, in fifth or sixth grade and computers started coming out and we had those old things where you could make it go forward or turn right or turn left. Yeah. And you put in the little commands, and it was, like, the big deal that we were learning computers in school. Like, young kids are gonna be laughing at me saying this. Right?
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: I had a Commodore 64 where I learned how to do that.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. So but that's how I work with Alex. That's how I interact with Alex. It's literally one step, do this. One step, let's go here.
• 45:43
  One step, what do you want? One step, Do you need this? What do you need? What do you need to get what you need? Like, so very literal.
• 45:54
  Also, really likes the Amelia Bedelia books. So sometimes now he has been able to say, this is Emilia Bedelia. I can tell it's not right, but I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying. So that's like a breakthrough.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: That is. That's good.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Right? So I'm just saying those are some things that help me.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: I don't want to make him feel uncomfortable or lost or detached or anything. I'm trying to do better at at trying to interpret his meaning rather than his words.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: But sometimes it's just really hard.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: It is hard. And because he's still not connecting consequences, and I don't mean his own, like, good or bad behavior. I mean anything.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: Like and effect.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Cause and effect. Yes. The part of what he's not understanding is that when you are pointing out the effect, he's he he he doesn't know where you're getting it. Like, for him, it's not connected. And when you pros you're really good at processing with the kids.
• 47:07
  Like, you chose this. What happened because you chose this? How did that make you feel? Like, you're good at processing with them, but he can't he still isn't connecting the first step. So then the rest of it
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: isn't He's already lost.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. It's like random Scrabble tiles. When what you think you're playing is dominoes and that you push the first one and they've all fallen, he's like, why did you throw all the scrabble tiles out? Take two.
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: That breaks my heart.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think that is the confusion on his end of things. But
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: I think he also gets complicated by the number of people here and the level of chaos.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: It's so many variables. I think part of it I mean, you and I have always had, like, these role reversals Mhmm. In our relationship. And our family has always been unusual.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And the whole group of us is a lot. And
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Today at church, a lady said, you have such a beautiful family. And I said, thank you. We're focusing on abstract expressionism.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. That's so funny. That's so funny. So but I think, like, when I the abstract expressionism. When I am thinking about where do I need to be, what is actually helping, what do they actually need, I still have that pull.
• 48:55
  And you called me out about it the last time we talked about where physical presence is what I think is most important because it's what I never got. Yeah. That has been huge. And I would really like to keep a therapist long enough to actually be able to process that. But I keep coming back to it because I keep having this panic or walking in the running, going going in these circles about what if we did this, or what if we did that, or do we need to do this?
• 49:26
  Or am I wrong because I have left, or am I wrong because you are having to single parent? No. I'm working. No. Like, I have to literally talk myself through it every time.
• 49:39
  Yeah. Every time. And so hearing this, that he's doing some better, maybe better enough to function for a couple weeks until we can get to the baptism, get answers, those questions of, okay. I didn't make this up. We're still on the same page.
• 50:00
  We're doing this as well as we can, parenting as well as we can. But also, I don't want to get so lost, redefine our family and what our family needs, especially as the kids get older, that we lose what we already know. Yeah. So I think part of what is getting me activated or what is triggering me is that we had a whole decade where we had to move, move, move because of the hospitals Yeah. Or because of crises.
• 50:33
  Mhmm. And this is not actually a crisis. But I'm like, oh, what do we need to take care of? Where do we need to be? What do we what except we don't need to do that.
• 50:44
  And it isn't actually like that, but it still feels that way. And so I'm working really, really hard on how do we just stay put. The house there is working fine for now. The kids here are fine for now. You're actually doing better.
• 50:59
  Things did fall apart a little bit when I left, but it's because I was doing too much and in everybody's business. So it took a hot minute for everyone to figure out their own business when I got out of the way. But that was actually healthy and good and growth for all of us. So I did not get to go to queer church camp.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: I know. I felt bad about that.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: You know what though? I decided maybe it's okay because that book that I asked you to look at too before I just delved into it all by myself, not to get permission, but for perspective.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: It's actually been really helpful in lots of ways and given me lots
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: thought you were gonna like it a lot.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: I really love it. I really love it. There's a whole lot I love about it. And that really challenges me in good ways and opening up my even my faith perspective, which is weird to talk about queerness and actually become more faithful out of that. Mhmm.
• 52:05
  But it's been interesting. But anyway, the the retreat itself, when it got close to time for the retreat, there was a Facebook group that they opened up for it
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Which was in part kind of annoying since I usually am not on Facebook. And so then I had to
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: No.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: And go through all that again. And so but I was watching it. But then they started saying things like, we're not gonna police anybody. If someone brings alcohol, that's your personal choice. Just you if you get out of hand, we'll have to ask you to leave, but we're not gonna please anybody about it.
• 52:52
  And I was like, oh, I don't need to drink, actually. But then it brought up questions, like having to, again, think my way through, but then also in the context of untangling religious trauma that oh, I'm sorry. This is off topic. It's off topic, but I have to tell you I'm so excited. Please.
• 53:17
  I have a friend from the community who grew up in Arkansas.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: In the same Duggar environment. I b l f or whatever it was called that Jeanne said was a cult. And I was like, what? And now I've learned more about it, and I sent you that Duggar link
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Which we still have not talked about, but right? Mhmm. It was I can't tell you how excited I am to find out that she has also had that experience differently than mine and in her own way, but that she gets it. So we can come back to that.
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: But anyway, to, like, keep working on these religious trauma layers and untangling the difference between a fence and a playground. I have spent more than a decade, maybe two decades, thinking that I'm not drinking because I had a problem, but I didn't have a problem. I was around people who had a problem. Yeah. And so holding space for all that and being brave to ask all these questions and to do this, coming to terms with queerness, but also maintaining my faith and doing all of that while so far away from my family, which maybe was necessary in some ways, definitely needing the adding, but also experiencing the culture differently, like, it's kinda scary there, honey.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: It's very different.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: Like, the church. That's all I'm gonna say because if I start naming different organizations, people will know what I'm talking about. The church. I'm just gonna say it for right now. Like, they know what day I go to the grocery store.
• 55:26
  They know if I missed a walk during the week.
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's weird.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: They right? It's really, really creepy.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: Because it's all your next door neighbors.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Yes. It's like Stepford Land. And so do you remember back in the day when I got that job offer in Utah and you were like, I really don't wanna raise kids in Utah. And I'm like, oh my goodness. I guess if I say Utah, everybody knows anyway.
• 55:53
  But it's really creepy. It's really creepy. I don't mean faith tradition things. I mean culture.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: It's purely a a regional culture thing.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: It is not like that here. No. It is bizarre. And the more that they, like, try to swarm in me, like, I feel like this prison perimeter set up around me, the more Jake Gold and Kimball I wanna go. I heard someone say, I think it was on that podcast, I heard them say once that, like, within the playground fence.
• 56:35
  Right? I'm not talking about breaking covenants or Right. Being naughty or breaking any rules or anything like that. But within that playground, that anywhere else in the world, you can be fully yourself. How did they say it?
• 56:50
  You can be fully yourself and enjoy those parts enjoy those parts of just, like, self expression Mhmm. Whatever that is in whatever area. Right? Like, it makes me think of, like, how when you lived in New York and everybody in your ward was like an artist or a musician or a performer or something. Right?
• 57:15
  Because it's where you lived, and that's the culture there. But they were talking about how in Utah, trying to be yourself is an act of rebellion. Which is not what, like
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Which is weird because I firmly believe that God wants you to be yourself.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Right. Which is why I love this book. It has helped me reframe it. But it is a bizarre experience to be reading this book and to be thinking about these things, working through my own religious trauma of the past where it was creepy Jesus, not real Jesus, and then to be in Stepford land while I'm doing that work therapeutically.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I even thought about this as a teenager about how I liked the fact that being a member of our church here in Oklahoma is an is it's a kind of rebellion. Right? But if you live in a world where everyone around you goes to the same church, then where do you find your rebellion? Like, you have to push in other things.
• 58:19
  So I liked that I could be rebellious just by doing what I knew was good and right, And that that would have been a lot harder, had I lived where it was the more dominant dominant culture.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: It's weird. It's really weird. I don't like it. Also, strangely, this is weird. The more I feel that, the more I have, like, daydreams about the house and the country.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Isn't that Going to isolation again?
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: I guess. Isn't that strange? I'm sorry. I guess we're way off topic. The point is I'm not leaving the family.
• 59:07
  I wanna be a good parent. We're gonna just take it literally classic to us and these children because that's what it is required of us. Yeah. Literally take it a week or two at a time of who needs to be where and what's happening, especially as we move into summer. I don't know how much I can actually afford to move people back and forth, but we can a little bit.
• 59:36
  But I will be back for the baptism. And I'm super excited. That's where this whole thing started. I'm sorry. Our conversation all over the place.
• 59:47
  I got approval to be here for two weeks from mom's surgery.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: Surprise. That'd be great. We were in the same time zone for two weeks before we got married.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Speaking of weird culture. I've really struggled. For me, that comes with part of this book and things. I think in some way, I think I thought if I could get sober enough, if I could be straight enough, if I could do all the things, it would finally make me good. And so, like, I was still in Dante
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Rather than actual faith. And so, like, it doesn't change what I believe now. And if anything, my faith is even better and deeper. Like, it's not it's it's one of these things. Right?
• 1:00:50
  Like, if I it's hard conversations just with myself looking at these things. Like, even the layer of that we talked about about your cousin introducing to me and how much consent did I have in that. But to, like, hold space enough for me to just look at that, and partly because of the triggers from my past, not because your cousin was doing anything malicious. I don't mean that at all. But to be brave enough and authentic enough to look at those pieces, it's been really, really hard and really, really uncomfortable.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: It wasn't until the last time we talked about this that I realized, oh, that's the reason why you have disliked him so much for so long because he was playing out sort of an archetype from other places in your life. Like and it made much more sense when I thought about it in that framework because I've always been a little puzzled why you were always you always had this sort of lingering hostility towards the guy who introduced us, and I could never figure it out. But thinking about it as being sort of a power dynamic thing, it totally makes sense.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: Well and to be clear, this man has been nothing but kind to me. Yeah. And he's one of the funniest persons I've ever met on the planet. And so literally, there was no abuse of power in that context other than
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: He was your
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: The pattern.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: Like employer and like a a church leader over over you, like like double layers of power and then asking you to do this thing. Like, that's that's a lot of pressure. Like you said, how much consent did you really have?
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I am grateful for you and how kind and good and generous and patient you have been while I've been through this, especially the last year, asking these questions and getting my gay on. Like, you have been brave and patient and let me talk about hard things and ask hard questions and just like everything else been along for the ride. And I am grateful for that, but also as I have learned from the last year that and this is another piece that's really hard for me. That sometimes what I think things are isn't what's actually happening. And not not in a way of I'm out of touch with reality, but when I am in relationships with people who don't know how to express their needs, then I can just sort of plow through life not realizing who I'm knocking to the side.
• 1:04:13
  And not that I do that on purpose, but in learning to hold myself accountable and be more responsible and listen better and ask better questions so that you all have the space to learn and grow in the same way you have given me space to learn and grow. From the beginning of our marriage, we have talked about how you are accommodating. And so there are some things that really just don't bother you or you're fine or you don't care what we do. There have been other things where we've made big decisions and you're like, no. Like, I really have confirmation.
• 1:04:56
  This is what I wanna do, like fostering or something. Right? Like, I feel the rightness of it even though it's really brutally hard. And so, like, we've made decisions that way and been through experiences that way. But just as much as I have grown in the last year, focusing on religious trauma and sexuality and learning all of this and how to integrate that, like, not parts of me, but the experiences and my faith and choosing this is what I wanna keep and this is what I wanna reclaim and this is what I wanna let go of and sorting through all the things, You have done your own work and your own growth and your own changing.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: I'm trying.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: And I wanna honor that too, and I wanna hold space for that too. And I'm sorry that your composer is not as good of a girlfriend for you as mine is for me.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: It's true.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: What are you gonna do about that? I have no idea. You guys have been fighting for years. Not fighting isn't the right word. He's been looping.
• 1:06:26
  What is the word? How would you even explain that? I don't even know. You look so pained. I'm sorry.
• 1:06:34
  I brought it up.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: No. We've been having these discussions about doing a recording from one of our shows, which is a really wonderful thing. And today or yesterday, I don't remember. I was saying, I think like, I know we wanna try and find singers who have recognizable names and, like, Twitter followings and whatever. And I said, I I really think we should try and find a place on the recording for Farrah because
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: One, she has an amazing voice. Two, she's done all kinds of things for us.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Three Do you remember I'm sorry. I'm interrupting. Do you remember when she said she would fly to sing if Kyrie died?
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: At her funeral. Yeah.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm glad Kyrie didn't die,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: but Yeah.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: It would've been nice to hear Farrah sing.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: But she's also been in in Broadway shows, and she sells out concerts and stuff.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: She's legit.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: She's a strong she's a very strong independent woman. She's awesome. I love her so much. So just things like that. Like, I don't I just don't know how to get on the same page.
• 1:07:54
  And as I look at more ideas of what I would like to be writing, I'm interested in writing about things like gender roles and what does race mean and what like, exploring some of the wading into difficult issues. I'm because I want to understand them better, not just because I'm trying to virtue signal or something. But he has absolutely zero interest in any of those topics, like actively repulsed by engaging in in those issues. And I I don't know what to do about that.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: You need a new boyfriend. I'm sorry. Does it hurt your heart? Your music is so amazing together.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: I just I just wish we could get, I mean, I just wish that one of my shows would take off so that I could lift some of the burden off of your shoulders, so that something that I have done could help support our family financially, not just because of gender roles, but because, like, that is a gift that I would like to give our family. It's a gift I'd like to give the world sharing the things I've written.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Your music is amazing. I I feel like that's its own trauma. Maybe we talked about this on Sondheim, but I feel like that's its own trauma that you've been through where you have primarily in the course of your career worked with two different composers now. Mhmm. And, I mean, you've also composed some of your own stuff and you've done other things.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: But mostly I've been the words guy. Yeah.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: But your big musicals, you've primarily worked with one composer for ten years, and now you're working with a different composer the last couple of years. And I feel like your situation was like me learning how to date healthier and healthier people until I got to adding what I need because your other composer, it literally took you, like, ten years to write a musical. And now you've got this compo and he hands down, the best.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: He's amazing. Yeah.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: He's amazing. Right? And that work that you've done is incredible.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: And now you've got this composer, and your work is amazing. And he can be, not always, but he can be super productive.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: Yes. He can.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: And that you've done several projects together in way less time than you did with your previous composer, which is what you wanted. Yep. But, also, he stops it from actually being produced just like your other composer.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: So I feel like just like with me and the progression of dating and learning what I needed, you need the next one where he's more productive, but also something where you get to finish a project.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: That's so hard.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: Good thing you've got Maisie. Aw. That dog. Anything else do you need to share for an update? You're very gracious to let me just walk in recording, but I I didn't wanna make you do it twice.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. You're so funny.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: I'm Hey. I'm home, and we're recording.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited you're home. I'm so happy. Surprise. Absolutely.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Okay. I'm just gonna be honest. I know we were almost done. But I'm just gonna be honest. When I hear you say that, I immediately feel well up in me that rescue response that I'm trying really hard not to do.
• 1:12:11
  Like, oh, you're happy now that I'm home. I should be home so you can be happy. Oh, yeah. Do you see how quick that happens in me? And I know that's like us not being codependent and me not getting sucked into those triangles of victim, persecutor, rescuer, the Cartman's triangle.
• 1:12:31
  So I'm try but I'm I felt it, so I just wanna say it out loud so I can notice it.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: In that triangle, does that make are you positioning yourself as both persecutor and rescuer? Who do you who's the persecutor in that situation?
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: Well, in that situation, it's depression, I guess.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, that could be.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: Or maybe I'm avoiding my own being the persecutor. If I leave, that makes me the persecutor. If I cause the depression and cause the sadness. So I avoid guilt by rescuing instead of causing.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: Interesting.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, all of that's unhealthy and not accurate, but I think that's the process maybe. What do you think?
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: Immediately, I go to, oh, we I should be here, and then you'll be happier. I can help with the kids. Everything will be okay. Everyone will be happy, and families belong together. We're supposed to be together.
• 1:13:29
  I should be here. Like, bam.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: This is it's fascinating. This is one of the major differences between you and me. It has always been this way and that I am the dreamer and you are the gitter dunner.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: Right? Yes.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: And so, like, I think, oh, how wonderful that would be if we, like, just got to be together all day and we got to hang out and didn't have to worry about the children. You're like, okay. Let's make this happen. How are we gonna do this? I'm gonna do it.
• 1:14:04
  We're gonna be home. We're gonna figure out. And I'm like, oh, that's a lot more complicated than I meant. I just wanted to enjoy the imagined world. Right.
• 1:14:17
  So I too love that you are home, and I am happy that you are home. But I also know that I am strong enough to keep going.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: What? Yeah. Mister independent healthy therapy man?
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: Maybe. Little bits.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: High five?
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean I will enjoy it. It doesn't mean I won't have some really hard days.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: But I'm still hanging in there.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: Well, we can record another episode in two weeks and see if I'm still offering to stay.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: There you go. Yeah. Exactly.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay. Anything else?
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: Not that I could think of at the moment.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: You're such a good sport. I love you. What did you think when you saw me on the porch?
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: It was just a thought that had never crossed my mind, but it would be you.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: Surprise. Yeah. Now I'm gonna have to text you every time. You have an Amazon package on the porch. It's not me.
• 1:15:20
  It's not me.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I was trying to work out. Alex came to say someone was trying to break in the house. Emily says there's a package. Why would the delivery man be pushing the locks?
• 1:15:34
  I like, I just kept trying to formulate what was happening. The farther I got, it was making less sense. So
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: it's me, and I don't make sense. I'm actually really happy to see you. I had a hard couple of weeks, and I was feeling my anxiety really was higher than it's been probably since Curio is in the hospital all the time.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: Like, where I was like, I have to get in therapy or I'm gonna have a heart attack. Like, that kind of degree I of have not felt that in a long time. And it's just really been bad. So I think it's good and right. I'm here for a little while and I still have to work.
• 1:16:20
  I'm struggling because part of me is like, okay, if we put me on the military schedule and I just work for fourteen hours straight Mhmm. Then I can make so much money. And I could do that for two weeks. I could push through for two weeks. But then also, I would be home and not see anyone at
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: all. Yeah.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: And I'm here where there are hills. I miss green. Yeah. There's nothing green up there, and everything is flat because it's in the middle of the mountains. So, like, I can walk to the park, which is a little bit of green, and I'm grateful for it.
• 1:16:57
  But it's very flat. And
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: I imagine it would have started out as farmland. Right? It started out when the settlers when the settlers got there.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: Well, before they stole it.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I'm just excited to walk the hills, and I wanna see the trees. I wanna go to the lake. I wanna walk in the woods. But, also, I'm not actually on vacation.
• 1:17:29
  So we'll see. And part of me is, like, if I fill all the slots, it won't be so hard.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: Do you have to start tomorrow morning?
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: What time do
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: you start? Even have a day off. I flew here on my day off. Oh, sweetie. Twenty eight hours.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. So what time do you start tomorrow?
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know because I don't even know what time zone I'm in anymore.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's true.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: I have to look. I think eight or nine.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: Oh, in the morning?
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But until nine or ten at night. I have to look at the time zones. K. Can I ask another question?
• 1:18:06
  Mhmm. But it's really informational. It's not a shaming question.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, interesting.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: Is the Equinox still have the key locked in it?
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: So we just we just have one car while I'm home until I can get money to get that taken care of.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 3: So, granddad at one point offered to to come help out with the Equinox. I explained that I hadn't driven it anywhere because it didn't have any gas in it. And he said and one of the kids broke our gas can from our lawnmower, so I couldn't even pour any gas from the gas can into it. So I haven't been able to drive it for six months, and so the battery is dead. And he's he's got a battery charger, and he has his own gas can.
• 1:19:03
  So maybe if I go sit with mom for a while at some point, he could come over and work on charging that up for us.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: That would be nice. And then you have to drive it sometimes.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: I need that car to work long enough for the triplets to crash it.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: Or they're gonna crash the van that we actually need.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 3: I I absolutely would've the the real problem was was just gas. Like, having enough gas for the one vehicle has always has been hard for the last few months.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: Is it helping now that we're sending the envelopes, or it's still not enough, is it?
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean so last month because of the repair on the car Oh,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: we had to change the brakes on the van. Yes.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: There just wasn't enough money, and that was really hard.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: It's so hard. I don't know what to do other than except that I live there and that's more expenses. But, like, I'm not spending hardly anything.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: I know. I know. You barely eat anything, sweetie.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: I know. But, like and I'm working such long days. Even after Alex goes to bed, I work until ten plus white papers overnight. And so, like, I don't even know how to add more income in.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: I'm trying start can't. I don't want you to work yourself to death, sweetie. Like, I'm so worried about you burning yourself out.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: Well, that was like, we're a couple years past that part. I'm like the equinox. The key's just gonna stop turning.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: Oh, sweetie. That's why I need to show to take off because that's the only way I know how to provide anything.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: We're doing our best. We've made it a decade with nothing. That's pretty good.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: With nothing except you working, like, twenty seven hours a day?
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: Well, at least I'm contributing something since I don't have attachment to contribute.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, sweetie.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: Well, this has been fun.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: Parts of it definitely have.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: Surprise. Thanks for opening the door. I thought you were gonna leave me out there in the tornadoes.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: I did not understand what you were communicating with the messages.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: And Oh, so
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: So I'm glad Alex came to knock on the door.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: It It was a pretty bumpy ride trying to land in tornado weather.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Is it tornado weather?
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, 75 mile per hour winds.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: Yikes.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: Our plane was like
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: Oh, golly.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: It was really scary.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: Thank you for surviving. Thanks for getting home alive.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: Right? I figure heavenly father still needs me on earth just to make sure we have housing. Other people are more loftier parents. I said more loftier. Other parents are
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: You haven't even been spending time with the children yet? Grammar's already gone downhill. Okay.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: We have to figure out where I'm working tomorrow.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: We have to do that now because in the morning, there will be children awake.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: They should be gone by the time you start working, though.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: One could hope.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 3: They should leave at 08:15, the last of them. Okay. Unless they puke again. They puked all the time last week. I had a sick child home every day.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, no. I bet their germs are everywhere, and I'm gonna get it. I might just stay in the closet.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 3: It's been, like, a really
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: short year to come out of the closet.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: Turns out out of the closet is where the germs are. Yeah. Good times. Good times.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and healing brings hope.