Latest / The Breakfast Club / INTERVIEW: Abby Phillip Talks Jesse Jackson, CNN NewsNight, Cam'ron, Trump, Kamala, Cancel Culture + More

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INTERVIEW: Abby Phillip Talks Jesse Jackson, CNN NewsNight, Cam'ron, Trump, Kamala, Cancel Culture + More · The Breakfast Club

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Every day Breakfast Club. Y'all don yep, the world's most
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: dangerous morning to show to Breakfast Club, Charlamagne to God,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Jess Hilarious, DJ Envy Envy is out today. But Lauren
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Loro says, and we have a very special guest man,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the host of my favorite cable news UH network show,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Abby Phillips, is here morning. I say, Phillips is Philip,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Abby Phillip.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: That's okay, though everybody to everybody puts an ess on it.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: It's cool. It does not bother me. My friend says,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: it's a sign of respect in our community, like Selina's.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: People name.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Why do we do that? It sounds right, it feels right.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I am good? I'm good. I'm hanging in there.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: New book out Dream deferred Jesse Jackson in the fight
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: for black political power. I'm from South Carolina, so I
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: completely understand Jesse Jackson, and you know why he deserves
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: all all the praise. But why did you decide to
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: write this book?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I think that there are a lot of people who
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: have no idea that he ran for president, honestly, and
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: they don't and if they know that he ran for president,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: they probably don't have any idea that he came second
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: in the Democratic nomination in nineteen eighty eight, so he
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: was the runner up. And before Obama there was Jesse Jackson.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: And I think this chapter really is more important now
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: than ever. Back in the eighties, I think people didn't
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: have any way to know that what Jesse Jackson did
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: really mattered in the long term. But it clearly mattered
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: because had he not run, Obama wouldn't have been the nominee.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Had he not run, I don't know that you would
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: have like a Bernie Sanders or an AOC or even
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: a Zoron Mamdani. I mean, these are people who are
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: running on basically the same platform that Jesse Jackson ran on,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: and he really transformed democratic politics, not to mention registering
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: millions of voters and putting in place a lot of
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: the people that you know, people like Donna Brazil, Minon Moore,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: and so many others who are leaders in the Democratic Party,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: they are all there because of Jesse Jackson.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: What I was going to say in the back of
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: your book the praises, Yeah, you say, like the first
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: one talks about how he doesn't how Jesse Deson doesn't
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: get credit for how influential on American politics as he was.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: What credit do you want people to give him after
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: they read your book.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that he he transformed the
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: structure of the Democratic Party that made it easier for
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: outsiders to come in and disrupt the system. I think
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: that's really what his original goal was. When he was
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: running for president, he was basically saying to the Democratic Party,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: you have to take us seriously as black voters, and
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: not just black voters, but all kinds of other voters.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: He brought Arab Americans into the voting process. He insisted
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: on women being on the ticket. That's why Democrats had
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: a woman on the ticket in nineteen eighty four. He
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: insisted on Asian Americans being part of the political process.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So what he was arguing for was a political system
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: that actually takes everybody seriously. And I do think we're
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: closer to that now than we were in the eighties,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: and he deserves a lot of credit for that. But
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I also think, you know, especially younger folks who look
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I count myself among them. I was born three weeks
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: after the eighty eight campaign was over, right, So but
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like, this is not about any kind
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: of judgment about what you know or don't know about
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: this particular chapter of history. But it's important to know
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: that Jesse Jackson, like so many other of these leaders
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: in our history, they had a lot of chapters and
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: this was a really significant I mean, he ran for
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: president two times, he almost won the nomination. During one
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: of these campaigns, he went to Syria and Cuba and
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: brought prisoners of war back to the United States. I mean,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: he was doing a lot of things that if candidates
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: were doing that today, we would be like, what is
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: that real? But he doesn't get a lot of credit
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: for and I think a lot of it is because
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: it was the first time that so many Americans had
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: ever seen a black man try to do what he did,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: and I think it's important to remember how much of
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: a you know, just a barrier breaker he was at
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: that time.
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  Speaker 1: What was the single biggest myth or misconception you discovered
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: in your reporting about either of those campaigns that.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: You wanted to correct that he was only running as
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: a black candidate for black voters. I think that's the
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: biggest misconception. He was obviously very interested, motivated by the
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: desire to make sure that black people utilize their power
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  Speaker 2: not just cast a ballot, but had leverage to get
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: changes on the platform, policy things that mattered to their
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: day to day lives. But he was also in Missouri
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: with white farmers. He was also in San Francisco with
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Asian American activists. That's why he called it the Rainbow Coalition.
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  Speaker 2: I think people remember him as being the candidate for
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: black people, but he actually brought, as he said he would,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: a rainbow of people into the political process, and he
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: does not get very much credit for how much appeal
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: he had among white voters, especially when he ran the
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: second time around. There's this great picture I have in
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: the book of him at a rally with a bunch
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: of white farmers in their overalls and they all have
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: paper bags on their heads with their eyes cut off
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: because they're trying to hide their faces from the Feds
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: who were trying to basically foreclose on their farms. And
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: there's Jesse Jackson in the background with all of these
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: white people rallying alongside them. And that's, for me, an
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: iconic photo that kind of shows that he had the
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: same energy for our community as he did for all
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: of those other people. And he was arguing to them, look,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: we have the people who are trying to divide us
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: along racial lines, are trying to make you think that
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  Speaker 2: you don't have as much in common as a working
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: class black person, and that's a lie. And a lot
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: of people diminish that part of his campaign because it's
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: easier to sort of just put him in a box
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  Speaker 2: of he was just a black candidate for black.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: People when we fell short, because you know, you talk
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: about a lot in the book about the unlikely coalition
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: he put together. Yeah, it seems unlikely back then, but
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: now it's like the norm, right, exactly the President Obama
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: did or what the BP tried to do. I mean
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: all candidates try to do it. Where did he fall
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: short back then?
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: You think there were a lot of things that happened.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I think some of them were his own mistakes, and
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I write about those in the book. I mean, he
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: had a very big controversy with the Jewisler. Yeah, he
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: used a slur against Jews in private, and then it
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: became public and he had a hard time figuring out
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: how to deal with it and was slow in addressing it,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: and that really dogged him, especially for the nineteen eighty
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: four campaign. But it had an impact on eighty eight two.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I think the other part of it was that he
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: was a true outsider candidate. He had almost no establishment support.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: You know, he was like what Bernie Sanders was in
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, where nobody wanted to touch him among establishment Democrats,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: and so it was harder for him to build a
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: real campaign that had the infrastructure that he needed to
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: take advantage of the momentum when he did encounter momentum.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: But I would say the other thing is that he
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: was completely he discounted as a candidate. I mean I
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: went back and I read virtually everything that was written
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: about Jesse Jackson in those two campaigns, and the way
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: they talked about him as if he was a gadfly
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: candidate is you know, they really did not take him
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: seriously in the media, and back in that time, there
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: was no way to bypass the mainstream media. And I
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: do think a lot of times if he were running today,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, he was such a master of the press,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: of narrative, of really breaking through, but there was no Internet,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: and if he had had that, I think it would
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: have been a different story because so much of his
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: message just never got to people.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of the critique he gives to to
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of people say that he was just an
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: ambulance chasers to seek publicity. Like you know, there's an
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: infamous story about how he wiped Martin's blood on his shirt.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that is even that's in the book.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Look so read. I mean you should. That part of
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: his story is and I'm glad you brought it up.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: It's important because that is the double edged sword of
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Jesse Jackson was that he was a chaser of attention
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: of cameras. He loved having a microphone in his face,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: and it was both a gift and a curse. He
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: used it extremely well for decades and decades, and it
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: made him one of the most famous people in this
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: country for a time. But at the same time it
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, including black people.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: That yes, but yeah, in some cases, especially black people
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: were There are a lot of stories in the book
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: about why all of these people that he came up
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: with in the civil rights movement, all these elected political
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: leaders who were you know, they ran in the same circle.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Some of them were his friends, did not endorse his
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: campaigns and it was for a myriad of different reasons,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: but I do think that a lot of people were
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: rubbed the wrong way by his constant attention seeking or
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: it seemed to be attention seeking. And I think that
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: even while you can recognize how important he was as
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: a figure, it's like all of these people, they're all
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: flawed in some really profound ways, but especially in this
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: particular way. I mean, any person who runs for president
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: has a massive ego, has a massive desire for attention,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: and he fits into that category like a lot of
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: these other guys.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: I don't mind it, though, because you know, we say
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: now one of the Democrats' biggest problems is not knowing
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: how to message. Yeah, not knowing how to communicate, not
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: knowing how to connect with people. Jesse did not have
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: that problem.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: He did not. He was a master connector. I mean,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: he really was, and I do think he probably got
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: more dogged for it than he deserved because that skill
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: was so rare at the time, and it's rare now.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, he was a black man in the eighties
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: filling up stadiums of fifteen twenty thousand people. There are
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: many candidates right now to this day that absolutely cannot
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: do that and he was able to do it because
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: he had charisma, he could deliver a speech, he could
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: connect with people who were otherwise not that interested in
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: him as a candidate. And look, it's a skill, it's
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: a particular gift. And I think that gift was completely
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: you know, it was just kind of ignored at the time.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: And I think we understand now how rare that is.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: People like Obama have it, people like Donald Trump have it,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: people like Bernie Sanders have it, but not that many
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: people have it, and he had it, and at that
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: time it was just kind of like, well, he's not
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: a serious candidate.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: And the opening of your book, you have a quote
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: from Theodore Roosevelt right about criticism.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: And the man in the arena.
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, how do you think social media? Well, young people
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: growing up in the social media area these days, how
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: can he learn from a quote as strong as this one.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the quote speaks to the fact that
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: the reason I chose it is because I think people
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: often throw stones at people who are in the arena
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: doing the work and getting bloodied up and muddied up
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: by doing the work, because it's really easy to be
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: on the outside and criticize, but by being in the arena,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: you are actually doing the thing, and it's messy and
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: it doesn't require you to be perfect. And I thought
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: that was a good quote that kind of describes Jesse Jackson.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I wrote this book, and it paints the full picture
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: of this man in all his flaws and all his gifts.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: But the one thing you have to say about him
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: is that he was in the arena. He was there
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: at all these different junctures. He was involved in nineteen
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: seventy two at the historic Black Political Convention in Gary, Indiana,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: where black people gathered together and asked themselves, how do
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: we exercise our power? He was there in the eighties,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: he was there in the nineties, So he was there
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: in all these moments. And I think it can be
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: very easy to criticize those people who seem to be
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: everywhere a little too much. But being in the arena matters,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: actually getting up off your couch and going and doing
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: something about what's happening in the world is something that
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: very few people do, and when they do it, we
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: should learn from them.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Do you feel that way being one of the few
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: black women on cable news with their own show, Especially you,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: because you know you have your own ringbow collision that
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: you bring together every night with all of these different voices.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like you get a lot of that,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of criticism.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Look, I don't want to I don't want people to
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: misunderstand this. I am not at all saying that I
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: am at the caliber of people like Jesse or anybody
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: else who's really putting their body on the line to
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: make the world a better place. However, what you do
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: is important. But I play a role, like we all
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: have a role, and this is mine and I and
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: and in a way, yeah, people are very easy to
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: be like, well, she shouldn't give this person a platform,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: she shouldn't do this, she shouldn't do that. And I
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: do think it's super easy to say that when you're
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: just at home, like watching the clips on your phone.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: And this.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: I've been covering politics a long time. This is a
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: time in our like political life, where we have to
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: really know what's going on, and we have to know
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: what everybody is saying on all sides of the issue,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: because I don't think that ignorance has served anybody well.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And particularly I get a lot of criticism from the
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: left from people who are like, why does she have
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: maga people on the show, and it's like, well, you
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: should know what they're saying, because just so you know,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: half the country voted for Trump and for trump Ism,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: and it's not helpful to be completely unaware of what
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: is happening in those media ecosystems. So I personally think
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: it's super important and I want the debate, like we
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: need to have that debate. I want it to be
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: right there, out in the open. And I also think
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: that it's important for people on both sides to practice
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: being challenged, because what we've found on the show is
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: that a lot of people are not used to being challenged,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: and when they have somebody literally staring them in the
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: face saying I disagree with you, for some people, they're
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: like really taken aback, Like they don't really know how
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: to deal with that, how to counter it, how to
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: be quick, how to respond. And I think that is
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: a really important skill in our politics, that we can
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: go back and forth on the issues and we can
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: really hash it out. And I, you know, I'll take
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: the criticism from all sides, but I am very proud
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: of what we do because I think that very few
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: people are willing to do it. Very few people are
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: willing to take the chance of even being criticized, and
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I don't mind it, like that's part of the job.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: What about because I know with your show there's some
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: moments that are like very hard hitting, right, what about
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: when that becomes like too much for you? Because I've
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: seen people step away from those debate style shows because
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: it personally becomes too much and is triggering for them,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: especially for black women. How do you kind of cause
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: you get back up and do it again the next day? Like,
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: what is your that's my responsibility. I unfortunately can't step away,
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: but I understand when people do, and I actually think
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: that is totally good and healthy. I think it's important
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: to know your limits. And you know what, the good
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: news about me not being able to step away is
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: that it's my show and I can draw the lines
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: when I need to draw the lines. And if you watch,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: as I know you do, like you've seen the times
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: when I've had to draw some lines at the table,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: And I don't do it that often because I want
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: it to be not that common because when I do,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: it's like when you're.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: You know, really tells you it's time to stop. That's
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: kind of how I want it to be where it's
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: not like that happens all the time. But you know
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: that when I've reached my limit, it's the end, that's
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: the limit. And I think that's that I can because
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I'm the host. I can draw those lines around the
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: kind of conduct that I will accept at the table.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: And I have control over who shows up and who doesn't.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: For me, I take that on the weight of having
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: to show up every single day. But I don't discount
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: any person saying I need to take a break. It's need,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I need a moment, because I think that's actually healthy
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: for all of us, that we we should take care
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: of ourselves and our own well being even while we
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: try to stay engaged. And I fully, I fully support
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that and and I and I also will say or
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: that I think there are definitely people who crossed the
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: line and that's part of the dynamic that is not
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: within our control. And and that's okay. I mean I think, well, look,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: I mean the more the most maybe the most famous
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: one was the well, yeah there was Jillian Michaels, but
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: I you know, you know, I'll say, honestly, Jillian Michaels
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: crossed the line in the sense that she said something
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: that was kind of embarrassing and we addressed it, but
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: we never said to her, you're not welcome back.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: And I don't think she crossed the line.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I just think she's, yeah, that's her. She made a
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: decision not to want to come back. But yeah, she
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: The thing about that was that she actually was talking
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: about something that was important for us for people to
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: be aware of was actually happening. Because right after she
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: said what she said about slavery and how it's overemphasized
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: at museums and the Smithsonian guests who said the same
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: thing the president. So if you had watched our show
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: a couple of days before, you would have known what
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: was coming. And it's not just that she said it,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: but the President said it, and then it actually became
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: the policy that they're trying to implement at the White House.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: So I thought it was actually super important that that
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: was put out there because I think people were not
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: aware of the extent to which slavery was the core
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: thing that they were mad about in terms of how
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: it was being represented in our museums. So she again,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: I think you're right. I don't think that we I
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: just would describe that as crossing the line, but we
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: addressed it as an important conversation that needed to be
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: factually addressed. But there was another incident with a person
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: who was on the show who said to another guest
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: that a Muslim guest that their pager would go on
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: to medi It was a reference to the Israeli they'd
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: like put bomb materials in pagers of the houthy terrorists
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: and they went off. And that was an actual line
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: that was crossed, because you wishing death on a guest
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: on the show is completely unacceptable. And he was told,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and I said publicly on the show. He was not
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: invited back. And so there are lines that are crossed,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: and I think people understand that I'll draw them when
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: they need to be drawn, but I also think that
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: we want to have real conversations. Sometimes they get a
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: little bit messy, and that's okay, but I also think,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: you know, disrespecting people in a way that is inhumane,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: or you know, just there are some lines that we
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: don't want to cross, and we'll draw those lines publicly
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: and I'll let everybody know what's going on. But for
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the most part, we're not We're trying to encourage speech,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: not trying to squelch it.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: The thing that buzzed me out about your show is
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: people will say, you know, they'll talk about Scott Jennings
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: or the Kevin O'Leary's or you know the guy who
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: said made the comments to Meddi Hussan. But you have
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Anna Casparian on there, and Nina Turner and Teslin Figureo
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: and Bakari Seller's and Tiffany Cross and Meddi Hassan and
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Michael Eric Dyson and child'swell, all of these powerful people
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: with powerful voices who push back on all of that nonsense.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I don't understand why nobody ever highlights that you have
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: voices on TV that don't get on TV. Teslann figure
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: is only they only put our own Fox movies, Anna,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: it's only on the Young Turks Nework. They don't put
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: these people on telephone.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: We look for people to bring on who bring a different,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: unique perspective. That's the whole idea is that people like
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Anna and Teslin and others, when we bring them on
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: the table, it's because we don't we don't want just
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: like the typical talking head that you hear on television.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Because I also think that what they do is they
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: represent more people. They represent regular people and how they think.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that I love about the show,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: because I hear it from people when I go out
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: into the country, is that they watch and when they
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: hear something, regardless of what part of the political perspective
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: they're on, they'll say, yeah, that's what I was thinking.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: And I want people to think that that their POV
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: is their point of view, is represented at the table
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: in some way. And so yeah, we try to find unique, new, interesting, dynamic,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: energetic voices, people who are smart, people who can get
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: in there in the conversation and are not passive. They're
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: actively listening, they're actively responding, they're thinking on their feet,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: they're not just regurgitating talking points. We don't get there
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: every single day, but that's the goal that we try
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: to get at. And so yeah, we on both sides
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: of the aisle, by the way, because we also look
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: for fresh voices on the right, because I just think
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: that there's people are tired of the same old, same old,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: the kind of talking past each other where you know,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: one person is saying one thing and then the other
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: person is saying another and they're not ever responding to
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: each other, and the ideas that are put on the table,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: and we try to move past that because I think
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: it's not that interesting to be doing that in this
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: day and age. And what I am also really proud
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: of is that we get into the actual issues. We're
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: not just talking about the politics and how it's going
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: to play with the right and how it's going to
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: play with the left. I'm going to ask you who
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: are tariffs really helping and who are they really hurting,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: And like we're going to talk about the actual issue,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: not just quote unquote how it plays, because I think
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: that's kind of like a lazy way to approach real
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: issues that have an impact on people's real lives. Nobody
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: cares how it plays. They want to know how it's
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: affecting their actual pocketbook.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: What you had dedicated this book to your daughter and
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: your two parents. I wanted to ask you a question
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: you said to my daughter, Naomi, who showed me?
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: How?
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: How did your daughter show you how?
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: What you mean? I never knew how much I could
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: do until I had my daughter. And I think I
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: know a lot of mom's parents can relate to that
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: that I was probably limiting myself before I had her,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: because being a parent, You're like doing so much every
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: single day, and there's nothing more motivating than your child.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: There is nothing that wakes me up up faster in
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the morning than my daughter and knowing that I have
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: to get up and adam not only to put food
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: on the table and a roof over her head, but
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: to show her what it means to work really hard.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: And I started working on this book like two months
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: before I found out that I was pregnant with her.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: It was kind of a surprise, yeah, and I was like,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: oh my god, what am I going to do? And
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: then the morning sickness hit and then I was launching
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: a show and I was like, I don't know if
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I can do this, but I did. But I did it.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And then when she was born and I was trying
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: to raise a newborn as a first time mom and
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: then trying to work on this book, the thing that
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: kept me going was that I cannot quit on this
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: for her. And so, yeah, she showed me how to
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: do the things that I set out to do, and
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: everything that I start, I finish because of her. Because
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: that's what we have to do for our kids, is
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: to like we are showing them the way. And she
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: watches me, and you know, she knows, like mommy's going
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: to a speech, Mommy's going to an event. You know,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: she like she really she clocks it. She recognizes everything
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: that I'm doing, and it's in that brain somewhere. And
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: I know that when ten years from now she's four,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: and now ten years from now, fifteen years from now,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: that's going to be her normal. And that's what I want.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Is expensive, so.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: It's ridiculous out here to raise and educate a child.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: So yes, that is so powerful. I do love you
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: shed light on that. For me, that's really dope.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wanted to ask you to write when
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: you did get the backlash from the Jillian Michael's thing.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of people making comments, and social media
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: is one thing, but when the comments come from people
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: you actually know, like whether it's other, whether it's prominent writer,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: no name, But how did that make you feel?
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I think it was disappointing because I really hope that
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: we understand how important it is for people to be
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: free to say things that other people disagree with, because
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: when the tables turn, we want that ability. And I
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: also think it does not do us any favors to
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: pretend like a lot of people don't agree with Jillian Michaels,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: and that it's an opportunity for us to correct the record,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: educate you, to educate, to inform, to put facts on
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: the table. And I know, can I be real, I
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: know black people who agree with Jillian Michaels. I've heard,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: and not just recently. This is a her talking point
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: about how slavery existed all in the world, and we
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: overemphasize it here in the United States. I have had
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: black people say that to me, you know, ten years ago,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: fifteen years ago. So it's not like this is a
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: new talking point. She didn't invent this out of nowhere.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: So it's an opportunity for us to correct it. And
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like people who if you call yourself a journalist,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: you should never I don't think we should be in
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: the business of saying it would be better for us
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: to just not hear the thing that we disagree with.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: It is an opportunity for us to do what we're
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: supposed to do, which is to actually give people something
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: real to counter it with, gives people facts to arm
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: themselves with. That is what our job is as journalists.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Andrew gillim say he never he said this.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: When we did it was the night of the election.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe it was a couple weeksly armament, but he was
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: talking about in reference to your he said, I never
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: want to be blindsided about what the other side is
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: thinking ever. Again. Absolutely, And then I think about that,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: and I also think about and think about somebody. Think
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: about an eight year old child or a fifteen year
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: old child that might be just up watching CNN one
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: night or see that clip go viral. If there's nobody
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: there to correct that woman Jillian in that moment, they
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: might believe that too. They might take that information and
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: run with it. So you need people there to educate.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know why they're upset because you platform both.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and look, there's a whole As you know,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: the media is so fragmented right now. Everybody is consuming
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: media in their own silence, and a lot of people
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: on the left, liberals or whatever, they have no idea
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: what's being said in those conservative ecosystems. And one of
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: the things that we do is sort of try to
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: merge those information lanes a little bit more so that
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: we're actually hearing each other and so that you're not blindsided,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: because there's a whole other world that's happening over here
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: that you don't even know about, and you don't find
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: out about until people vote, and by that point it's
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: too late. So there should be more of this happening
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: where we hear each other. We're able to put fight
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: fight if information with information, put facts facts against facts,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: and have people pick, based on their own judgment, what
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: makes the most sense. And I trust people enough to
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: do that. I have enough respect for other human beings
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: that they can make decisions on their own. But I
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: do think that it requires that we really understand what
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: we're even talking about, and so I don't you know,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, it is a disappointing, yes, But I
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: also think that many of the people who criticize what
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: we do spend a lot of time just talking to
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: other people who agree with them. And that's a choice,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: but it's not a choice that I'm making. And I
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: think actually a lot of people want to know, They
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: actually do want to know.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: How do you feel when people say that CNN is
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: a network that just does what you just said you
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: don't want to do, Like your show is different because
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: you bring on these different voices but I've even seen
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: people say that they feel like sometimes the other voices
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: that are brought on are kind of brought on just
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: because they have to be there, not because like anybody
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: truly wants them there because CNN is known to be
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: or people think CNN always leans one way.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: How do you feel about that it does?
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: Well, mean, yeah, and it's your network, so yeah, don't
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, well, look, I would say it's fair to
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: say that that CNN we're not Fox News, but we're
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: also not MSNBC.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: We're true, we're probably center left, and I think that
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: has a lot to do with our audience. But we
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: watch when you actually watch CNN, we have Republicans on
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: every hour of the day, every single one, I'm pretty sure,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: maybe with very few exceptions, but virtually every hour of
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: the day. So they're not always on in the context
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: that we put them on. But we as a network
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: have a diversity of viewpoints on the air, more so
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: than our competitors. And so, I mean, liberal media is
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: a criticism that I think we hear a lot, but
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: there's also way more liberal media and way more conservative media,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: and so I don't, I don't know, I don't put
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: that much stock in it. I think it's I think
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: it's it's a little bit of reflection of the cable
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: news audience. But I also think that there are extremes
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: on both sides, and we're not in the extreme.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I think, real quick long. I think another thing is
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: that y'all show conservatives who aren't necessarily maga like the
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: se Cups of the world that Adam Kinsinger there is
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: a range.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Las week, I believed, well, no, no, not, Yeah, he's
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: on MSNBC. But there's there is a range to your point,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: and it's not just you know, there are mega conservatives.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: There are people like se and Melissa Fara who are
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: sort of somewhat anti Trump Republicans. We have libertarian people,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: we have progressives, we have just establishment democrats. There is
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: a range of political views and we tried to have
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: them represented in one way, shape or form. We have
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: people who I cannot put them in a box. I
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: don't like, I don't know how to describe their political views.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: We bring those people on, but we also bring on
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: people who are just not you know, we have Roywood
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Junior on all the time. We have Wendell Pierce comes on,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: like we bring on people who are Yes, just people
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: who are just insightful and smart, and you know, they're
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: just interesting and they bring depth to the conversation and
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: they put things on the table that regular that like
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: the classic New York and DC types don't put on
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: the table. And so I think that we are so
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: much more multi dimensional than left and right, than Democrat
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: and Republican, and that should be better reflected. And who
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: talks on television.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: H you brought up a this was like a I
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: think it was like a few weeks ago you were
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: talking about cancel culture, and I saw people reacting to
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: this too. You said that liberals need to take more
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: honest for where cancel culture went wrong, and this was
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: after Kimmel was pulled from air. Yeah, there's been a
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: lot of conversation about if cancel culture is even a
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: real thing at this point. Yeah, but where do you
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: think the liberals went wrong with cancel culture?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I think that there were some specific moments, you know,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: not just around race, by the way, but even around
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: you know, around COVID, around other things where whatever, Yeah,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. I I'm not endorsing
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: any viewpoints that are right or wrong, but I think
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: it's asking the question, should people be forced out of
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: their jobs or you know, should the should the weight
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: of sort of public opinion force people out of their
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: livelihoods because of things that they say, maybe because of
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: mistakes that they make. I think it is just a
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: fair conversation to have, because, as we saw when Charlie
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Kirk was assassinated, you had people making comments on Facebook
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: about how they didn't like what he said and then
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: losing their jobs over it. The government pulled people's visas
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: and revoked their citizenship over comments like that, and I
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: just think globally, look, I think one of the criticisms
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: of me making that point was that even long before this,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: there was cancel culture in the eighties and the nineties,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: and I think that's one hundred percent true. But shouldn't
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: we evolve to a point where we don't do this
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: kind of thing anymore where we think really hard about
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: what is the bar for us to say you should
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: be run out of society for something that you said,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: for an opinion that you have. And I think that's
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: a fair question to ask. Look, I don't think we
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: should be operating based on what was done to us
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: in the past, because I think if we do that
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: we're just it's like a ball rolling down a hill.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: We're only going to dig ourselves deeper and deeper into
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: a hole that we cannot get out of. And I
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: think every single one of you would want to be
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: able to say I disagree with X, Y and Z
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: person and not lose your job over it. Absolutely, So
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: that's the only point I was making that the principle
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: here is not that we want to be able to
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: do what they did to us. The principle is that
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: people ought to be allowed to say things that other
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: people disagree with without risking losing their livelihood and their
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: jobs over an opinion or even a mistake. That sometimes
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: people make mistakes, they say things that they regret, and
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: people should be allowed to make mistakes and atone for
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: them without their lives being completely ruined forever. I think
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: we would want that for us, and I think we
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: would want that for people we disagree with.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: My last question is, going back to your book, is
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: there a politician that you see today right that you
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: would say as a reflection of Jesse Jackson's legacy.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: You know, what I would say is that there are
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: there are several politicians that are influenced by Jesse Jackson,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: but none of them have so far proven that they
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: can actually do what he sought out to do and
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: be successful at it. So I would say that, you know,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders is a Jacksonian politician in the way that
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: he talks about economic issues. AOC is like the next
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: level of that she brings in the sort of social
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: justice piece that I think is lower on the list
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: of priorities for someone like Bernie Sanders. And I think
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: so I think that there are there's sort of like
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: this new generation of populist politician who are talking about
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: issues in the way that he did, basically arguing to
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: voters that the system isn't set up for you, that
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: it's not you know, it's sort of like this idea
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: that as working people, the system is set up for
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: the rich and the powerful and the corporations. That's the
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: type of message of Jesse Jackson hatt and you hear
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: that in a lot of other politicians. But to me,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: the thing that's been missing from so many of them
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: is being able to bring together the diverse coalition. Because
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: if you're a Democrat and you're trying to run for
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: a national office and you can't rally black people and
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Hispanic people and Asian Americans and like the whole coalition
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: you're going to fail. You're going to fail. And that's
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: where Bernie Sanders went wrong, is that he never really
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: was able to get people of color on board. He
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: had the economic piece, but he didn't have the other piece.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: And so I think the book kind of has a
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: question mark at the end of it because it's a
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: real question are there any politicians who can do both
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: of those things at the same time, Because that's what's
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: required in order to build a true coalition in the
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Democrat In today's Democratic Party, you can't have one without
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: the other. You can't have the economic piece without the other,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: and so it's I think it's an open question who's
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: going to be able.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: To do that.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: Are you doing an audio version?
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, I did it. I did it, and it'll be
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: available for people like me who don't have time to
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: carry around a book.
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: Just love to hear you speak, because, to be honest,
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: your voice has a calmness to it that would be
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: great for me to learn all of this stuff, you
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: know what I'm saying, Like a lot of stuff that
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Like, yeah, your voice is really calling
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: thank you thank you.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Did you get what school did you go to? And everything?
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: And did you always want to be, you know, doing
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: what you're doing.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I went to Harvard or whatever I went. But look,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: I I grew up in Booie, Maryland. Okay, I'm a
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: PG girl, and I went to Bowie High School. I
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: just I was a real nerd. I worked really hard
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: and I got into Harvard and that really changed my life.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: But the reason I ended up as a journalists is because,
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: first of all, I always loved politics, but I didn't
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: know I didn't want to be in politics. I don't
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: like to be honest, I don't like politicians. But I
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: love current events. I love history, I love government. And
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: when I was in college, I went on a civil
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: rights and service tour to We started in Memphis at
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the Lorraine Motel. We went to Mississippi, and we traveled
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: around to all these different sites and I blogged about
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: it and it was like a bug like.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: I was so.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Convinced by the power of the people who were journalists
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: at that time and took the things that were happening
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: in these tiny towns and brought it to the entire
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: country and really helped change the trajectory of civil rights
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: in the country, and I really identified with that, and
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I identified with the power of being there to tell history,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: and that changed everything for me. And at that point
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: I decided that I wanted to be in journalism, and
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: I decided to pursue it.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: And I.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Got kind of lucky that my first job was at
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: kind of a startup Politico, which now is not a
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: startup anymore, but at the time it was, and I
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: was their very first class of interns, and they just
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: kind of let me do whatever and gave me an
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: extraordinary amount of opportunity. They hired me after college. I
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: was covering the Obama White House. I have a late birthday,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: so I was twenty one when I was out there,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: literally at the White House in the briefing room, and
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: so they gave me an incredible opportunity to dive right
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: into national politics. And I've been doing it ever since,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: and the medium has changed. I've gone from print to television,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: but you know, I've covered two presidents, I've covered several
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: presidential campaigns. I've done a lot in politics, and I
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: think it's all culminated to this moment where I have
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: an opportunity to help people, not just tell people what
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: is happening, but help them understand it, because I think
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: that people are over they're oversaturated with just all the
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: stuff that's happening, and they need a lot of help
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: just understanding what really matters, what should break through to them.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: And that's what I get to do in my job
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I've heard people say things like, you know, you're the
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: future of CNN, but you know, how do you handle
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: being labeled at when legacy media itself is kind of
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: like fighting to stay relevant.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, we are fighting for our lives out there. I mean, look,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: I think in the media, everybody is fighting for attention.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what medium you're in, and so we're
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: in that. We're in that fight alongside everybody else. But
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: television isn't really going anywhere. It's just that we have
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: to evolve with people. We have to meet them where
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: they are and both the method that we talk to people,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: but also the content. And I'm really grateful that we
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: about a year ago, a little over a year ago
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: is when we started to do my show this way,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: and I'm really kind of grateful that we did because
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: it really speaks to what people are looking for, which
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: I know you talk about a lot Charlemagne, which is
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: they're looking for more authenticity and media, and I think
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: legacy linear media has been very slow to that because
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: they don't want to sacrifice being authoritative for being relatable.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: But I think that there's a way to do both,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: and there's a way to kind of give people information
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: while also speaking to them in a way that they
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: understand and leveling with them and identifying with them, or
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: putting people on TV who they identify with. And so
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: the innovation is happening, and CNN is going to be
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: streaming soon, so people who don't even have cable are
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: going to be able to literally just open up their
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: app and pay a small monthly fee and you can
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: watch it. And that's the future. And we're on Instagram
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: and you know, these our clips go crazy viral because
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: that's how people are consuming information. I mean, I wish
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: they watched the whole show, but I also appreciate that
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: people who don't even watch TV are seeing what happens
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: on the show because cable TV still remains incredibly relevant.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: That to me tells me what the relevance is. People
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: may not be turning on their TV every night at
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: the same time, but the clips are getting millions of
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: use because they still think it's important when they see
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: something with a CNN logo on it that there's some
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: authoritativeness there. So we still have that responsibility, but where
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: we have to evolve, just like everybody else does.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: What media changing, and it's now because media is changing
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: politicians and politics is changing as well to in the
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: way that people speak to people. Kamala Hair said to
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: BBC that she possibly may run again because I know
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: you were also very honest about what she did and
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: do right and what you thought she did do right
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: when she ran. If she was to run again, like,
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: where does she meet in the middle with that? Because
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: I think that's one of the things that fell off
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: with her last campaign, is that that was happening with media,
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: but she didn't meet us where some people were at
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: and speak straight to certain people. So what does she
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: do this summer run and shoes she even run again?
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: You know, I've been talking to a lot of people
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: about that because, as you know, this book was very controversial,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: and it was even more controversial than you think in private.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: In private, I think there's a lot of controversy around
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: it because I think that there are a lot of
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: bridges that are burned here, whether she wanted to or not,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: and I think it will be very difficult for her
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: to mend those fences that she'll need in order to
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: run if she just decided to run again. I think
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: this book read kind of like somebody who was kind
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: of done with it. So I will be interested to
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: see if she decides to do it. But one thing
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: I'll say, I mean, I think that she still has
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: to figure out how to tap into authenticity in how
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: she presents herself to the public, because this world is
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: not getting more kind to politicians who cannot level with
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: voters and cannot show up any and everywhere. And you
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: know my Fred Astead Herndon, who just left the New
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: York Times but he's going to be at Vox. He
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: just wrote a piece about zoron Mum Donnie, and he
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: had this line that I think a lot of people
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: quoted that was about how politicians have to be able
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: to talk in thirty second bites, in three minute clips,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: and in three hour interviews, and that's the future. You
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: have to be able to do it all. You have
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: to be able to show up in any medium, and
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: people get in a second who you are and what
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: you're about. And I think that she still has work
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: to do in that respect, and maybe this book is
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: the first kind of foray into that, because I read
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: her last book and the tone was completely different. This
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: is a different kind of book, and it was an
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: opening foray into her showing people more of herself. But
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: she's going to have to catch up to the speed
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: and the kind of realness of media and politics. That
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: will be the bar in twenty twenty eight. Like in
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight, the bar is going to be are
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: you a politician that can show up any and everywhere
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: and authentically reach people? And I think she is still
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: straddling the old world and the new world, and she's
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: gonna have to figure out which one she wants to
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: be in.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: I agree with that. I think it's actually more important
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: just to show up any and everywhere as your true,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: authentic self. I don't think you should worry about whether
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: or not this is gonna be a thirty second sound
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: bite or a three minute clip or three I'll just
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: go have the conversation because the media is gonna do
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: that for you. The media is gonna chop it up
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: for you yes, but.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, but I also think, Look, I mean I am
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: I'm a journalist, so I deal with her campaign and
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: all of that. And I'm telling you the answer is
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: not yes to everything in terms of where she's willing
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: to show up. And some of that is maybe staff
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: and how they try to kind of protect their principle.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: But in the future, you have to be willing to
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: talk to any and everyone. You have to be willing
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: to take risks. You have to be willing to sit
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: in front of people who might very well be hostile
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: to you and win them over. And I think that
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: up and you might, yeah, so what exactly, And I'm
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: just telling you it's that was not how they ran
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: that last campaign period. It wasn't and they're going to
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: have to She's going to have to be willing to
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: do that, which is gonna it's it's going to require
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: taking a lot of risk. But that is the future
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: of politicians. The ones who will thrive in tomorrow's media environment.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: They they you got to be willing to go everywhere
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: on a dime, prepared or not briefed or not. That
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: is how it works, and that's not how they ran
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four. And if she's going to run again,
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: it's going to have to be a complete overhauls strategy.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Like don't wait, don't and just for all of them,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: don't wait until it's actual twenty seven, not do it now,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Like start going to these places now. And I think
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: that a lot of them should be launching their own platforms.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: They should have their own podcast.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Gaven news I mean, and look, I mean, you say
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: what you want about Gavin Newsom, this is what I'm
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: talking about. He had this podcast and he was bringing
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: on all these conservatives on and he got a lot
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: of criticism for it. But I think what he was
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: trying to show was a willingness to talk to anybody
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: and to debate anybody. And again, I think there's a
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: lot of that that's going to be required in the future.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: You've got to prove to people that you can win
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: the argument. And if you can't do that, it doesn't
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: matter how polished you are, how experienced or knowledgeable you are.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: I think that's the baseline bar that you're going to
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: have to cross for a lot of voters in this
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: future media ecosystem.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: No, I agree. You know. The interesting thing that the
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: VP is doing. I think the book tour. I think
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: this book is going to help her a lot. Yea,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: because it's the first step to being completely honest and
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: then going on to book tour, but also going into
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: these cities and talking to you know, locals when you're
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: in these cities. I think that's gonna go a long way.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's always important to do that.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: But none of these candidates are going to really stand
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: a chance in hell if none of them were really
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: willing to challenge capitalism.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: Well, well, you know, I mean there's some truth there, Okay.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: The part of that that I would say is true
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: is that when you look at what Trump is doing
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: as president, in a way he's challenging capitalism. He's putting
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: tariffs on countries indiscriminately just because he wants to, making
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: the case that he's doing it for Americans. He is
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: taking government stakes in private companies. That's a Bernie Sanders idea.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: By the way, he is creating a government website where
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: people can shop around for prescription drugs, another Bernie Sanders idea.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: So his willingness to just take some of these ideas
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: the Democrats have been talking about and just do them,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: no matter how controversial, they are. Has been one of
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: the things that whether you like him or not, what
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: people will say about Trump is that he does what
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: he says. And I think the Democrats one of the
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: big problems that they have is that voters don't think
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: they're going to do what they say. They say all
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: the right things, but they don't think they're going to
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: do what they say. And so whether it's challenging you
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: can call it challenging capitalism or challenging whatever, voters want
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: to know that you're willing to buck the system for them,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: and I think Trump does that right now in a
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: way that really like shakes people up and makes people
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: really mad. But that is also why a lot of voters,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: whether they like him or not, they will describe him
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: as effective.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: I wonder how it all because it's like he's bucking
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: the system, but it has only been fit in the
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: rich right now, and it's not even benefiting his voters.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: I wont to why he and.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Even you know, look the tariff thing. He he's making
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: the case to Americans that this is a benefit to them,
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: but the economics don't work, they don't make sense. Farmers
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: would beg to differ right at this moment. They are
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: struggling mightily under these tariffs. Small businesses are struggling mightily
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: under these terraffs. So there is obviously a really big
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: difference between what Trump is doing and what he's saying
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: and what is actually happening. But I do think that
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: it's breaking through and I and my only point about
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: that was just there's a Democrats have become way more
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: establishment in the last fifteen years because Trump is so
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: anti establishment. They've defined themselves in opposition to Trump, and
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: so they've become sort of an avatar of the system.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: And I don't think they realize the degree to which
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: voters do not like the system at all. And the
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: next Democratic nominee is going to have to be able
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: to tap into that one way or another, to say
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: to people, I get it, you don't actually like the
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: way things are work working, Stop defending this status quo
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: and figure out what an alternative is that isn't just
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: opposition to Trump. And do I see anybody actually doing
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: that right now? Not really, But look, time will tell,
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Like we've got a long way ahead, and any if
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: history tells us anything, sometimes the person who ends up
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: rising to the top is not the person that any
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: of us are thinking about or talking about it. It's
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: somebody who's going to come seemingly out of nowhere, but
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: not going to come from the center of the political
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: universe right now.
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: So we'll see if to your point of everything you
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: just said, right, if Jesse accent right was able to
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: actually become president president, get in office just do things
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: for people that he cared about, how would Barack Obama's
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: presidency have been different. Kamala Harris just on this run
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: feeling like she has to dodge certain things and can't
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: speak straight to black people. How would all of that
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: be different if he had been able to get in
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: office and do what he was doing before he was
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: voted president or not voted.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: But that's really interesting. It's such an interesting question. I mean,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons that Vice President Harris
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: and Barack Obama have had to present a certain way
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: to the American public is the perception that a broad
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: swath of the electorate, especially white voters, won't take a
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: black candidate seriously unless they are very buttoned up, have
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: the resume all lined up, the whole thing. And that's accurate,
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: right that, Like, we all understand that you kind of
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: have to clear a higher bar in order to even
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: be let in the door. And I do wonder if
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: the country had successfully elected a black president who was
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: running on a progressive platform thirty years ago, whether they
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: would have that same burden. And I don't know, maybe
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: they would not have. You know, one of the things
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: about Jesse Jackson is that his fluency in a wide
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: range of issues. As somebody who never was elected to
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: political office, who came out of the segregated South, who
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: came out of a civil rights tradition, he was right
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: up there with all the other candidates on the debate stage,
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: talking about foreign policy, talking about economic policy, giving speeches.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, I would talk to people who would say
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: that they would give him, you know, like a thirty
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: minute briefing, and he would go in there and he
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: would weave a whole speech around an issue. He could
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: take information in and very quickly turn it around into
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: something that was compelling to an audience. And so he
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: had a kind of intellect that was not very respected
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: at the time. And I do think that, you know,
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: if the country had elected a black president, I think
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: candidates today who are running who are like Kamala Harris
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: or Barack Obama would not have to would not have
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: to do so much to show white Americans in particular
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: that they're qualified and that they have the basic, you know,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: qualifications to fit the job. I think that added burden
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: is one of the reasons that it's hard then to
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: turn around and say to those same candidates, well, you've
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: got to be authentic, because that same authenticity is what
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: they get knocked for early on in their career. So
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: it is I'm not say suggesting that it's easy. I
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: think it is difficult. You have to be able to
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: do both things. And actually I would say Obama actually
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: did both things pretty well. He was incredibly credentialed, but
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: he was incredibly authentic in the communities where he needed
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: to be authentic in. And I do think that it
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: is possible to do it, but it is absolutely a
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: higher bar, and it's a higher bar still to this day,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: because we've only done it once elected a black person
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: to the highest office in the land, and so there's
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: still a lot that has to be dealt with in
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: terms of people's preconceived notions of what people of color
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: can do at high levels of political office.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: My last question when Cameron took a sip of pink
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Horsepower on your show, like you just took a sip
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: with that.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: Is there something known in the industry about how did
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: he treated his artists? Sorry, I'm going to get some
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: cheeks after this horse.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: Powers joint and you were going to And then when
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: Cam said he was going to get some cheeks after
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: your interview, did you understand what was happening in that moment.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: I knew that we needed to end the interview. Obviously,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: I knew we needed to end the interview. We were
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: up against the end of the show and we didn't.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: We had to get to a certain time, so you know,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: I had to land that plane and I did, and look,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: I mean it was ridiculous, but as we know, that
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: was the point.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: So the person who had to transcribe the show afterwards
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: ask you what that meant?
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: What do you need to get some Well we all
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: were just like, what just happened? Yeah, you know, I
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: mean whatever, it's I'm not going to give this much
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: more oxygen because I know that's part of the point.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: I know he was here a little while ago talking
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you, because what was your favorite viral
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: news network moment. Was it the sixty minutes joint? Was
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: it the bill O'Reilly or the seeing and drinking pink horse?
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: Seeing that.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: By far, I'm sure he did said before it wasn't
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: like it wasn't personal anything with you. He just felt
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: like the network only hits him up for things that
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: aren't about what he does outside of.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: All I will say is that we were told by
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: his team that he wanted to talk about this, not
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: the other way around. So that's we Obviously, we don't
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: book people about things they don't want to talk about,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: So we would never bring someone on the show and
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: force them to talk about something that they didn't agree
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: to talk about. So I don't know. I mean, everybody
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: we have free will, We can do what we want.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: But like I said, I knew immediately. Actually we we
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: knew pretty early on in the interview that we needed
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: to get out as possible. You know, it was I mean,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: it was from the from the get go. Yeah, I'm
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: not new to this, Like I know, from the beginning,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: when somebody is not interested in being and being interviewed,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: and so we knew we needed to get out. But
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: it was just a timing thing, you know, when you're
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: at the end of the show. And he was actually
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: supposed to be on the show earlier but was late,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: and so we we we're just figuring out how quickly
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: we could hand off to Laura Coates at eleven o'clock.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: That put you in a good class. So Cam's got
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: some really good interviews with news and got some great moments.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: Will get said on the playlist somewhere.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely not, we are not. That is not a class.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: And I think you said I want to be he
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: said was his favorite. I asked him which one was
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: the and is a Cooper sixty minutes interview the bill O'Reilly?
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: When he was like, you mad you met a film?
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: He said, yes, because horse Power.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: I'm happy for Yes, I'm happy for him.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: But you know, stuff like that person when it happens. No,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: absolutely not not personally, but just like why you why
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: my show?
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: No?
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: I you know what, let me just I'll just say
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: this because I don't I've never talked I've actually never
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: talked about this before. But when that happened. Our booker
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: who booked that interview was a young woman and she
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: was very upset about it. And I said to her afterwards,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: and I said to my entire team. I was like,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: this is not going to be a reason that we
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: play it safe. We are not going to take this
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: as a moment to say, oh, this happened to us,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: We can't have people like that on our air again.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: I don't believe in that. I think that we are.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: We are out here trying to you hear from people
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: who are interesting and different, and maybe sometimes it goes left,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: but I'm not gonna this is We're not gonna come
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: down on you for booking this interview because we want
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: to bring interesting people onto the show, and it was
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: important to me to convey to them that we're not
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: gonna go into a little ball and be like, oh
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: my god, this went viral and this was embarrassing. No,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: this too shall pass. Like he had his moment, it
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: was fine. I don't really care.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: I wish he didn't do that on the air yet.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: But but I'm not using it as an excuse to
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: say that we're going to play it safe on television,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: because that's not what we're doing here.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: So book a fantastic job, fantastic booking what's her name, fantastic.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Book every night she was Unfortunately she moved to a
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: different city, so she's no longer with us. But yeah,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: but we listen, we I it wasn't just her. I
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: told her boss too, and I was like, we are not.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: We are not going to treat this like some kind
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: of major mistake, because it was not. It is television,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: and sometimes in television you have guests and you don't
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: know what they're going to say, and the whole point
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: of TV is not to be predictable and boring, So let's.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: Not do that. I thoroughly enjoy your bookings. I thoroughly
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: enjoy your show. Make sure y'all watch Abby Phillip on
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: CNN News Night every night at ten and then this
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Table for five comes on at ten.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Am on Saturday sdays. And don't forget to buy.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: The book Yes I dreamed of is out right now
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson in the Fight for Black Political Power, Abby Philip,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: keep doing a great service. Though.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you guys having me come on the show sometime.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: All of you really, yeah, I know you have. I
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: know you have some political viewpoint. You know what I'm
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: saying stuff, Even Take for five, I know it's I
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: know it's late at night, so Table for five you
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: can come on, it's a different time, so it's more
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: of earlier for your schedule. Yes, thank you're going there.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Argue for us, we'll be supporting.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: I enjoy watching It's Abby Philip. It's the breakfast club.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Hold up every day a way click yours up the
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: breakfast club. You an'll finish the y'all dumb