Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #593 Tween Tensions

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#593 Tween Tensions · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.
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Speaker 3: The time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, you
0:10
Speaker 3: get to a point where often you actually stop seeing
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Speaker 3: your child as a child and you just see them
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Speaker 3: as a combination of problems, and that's what you actually
0:22
Speaker 3: start to focus.
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Speaker 2: On that's going to affect you related to this need one.
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Speaker 3: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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Speaker 3: and dad.
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Speaker 1: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coleson, the founder of Happy
0:32
Speaker 1: Families dot com, dot you, and the parenting expert and
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Speaker 1: co host of channel Lines Parental Guidance. I'm here with Kylie,
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Speaker 1: mum to our six kids, and my wife person who
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Speaker 1: I just love puzzling over parenting with Kylie. Every now
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Speaker 1: and then, well most tuesdays, we encounter a listener dilemma,
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Speaker 1: and today we have.
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Speaker 2: Got a doozy.
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Speaker 1: I'm actually not sure where to go with this one
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Speaker 1: at this point, but I'm sure we'll figure it out
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Speaker 1: as we go. This person by the name of Allison
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Speaker 1: has just said help help. Our tween daughter eleven or
1:00
Speaker 1: twelve is pushing boundaries. At the moment, she's seeing how
1:03
Speaker 1: far she can push before getting ready to leave the
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Speaker 1: house for school or for fun things. When we enforce
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Speaker 1: boundaries and rules, she gets frustrated and acts out or
1:13
Speaker 1: bursts into anger. We've talked to her and tried to
1:16
Speaker 1: understand what's going on for her and reflected on how
1:19
Speaker 1: she felt, how we felt, and how her brother feels
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Speaker 1: when she gets out of control on slam's doors, kicks
1:24
Speaker 1: the walls, etc.
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Speaker 2: Any tips would be appreciated and.
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Speaker 1: Where we as parents can go when we feel like
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Speaker 1: we've got nothing left in the toolbox. Well, tough question, Allison. Fortunately,
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Speaker 1: Kylie is here to answer your question and to help
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Speaker 1: you to deal with your twin daughter. We have had
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Speaker 1: five of them at that age now, and I think
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Speaker 1: we've been through it more than once.
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Speaker 3: I think we're going through it right now.
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Speaker 1: So Kylie, I mean, I've always got a handful of
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Speaker 1: ideas here, but this one is tricky because it sounds
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Speaker 1: like Alison and her husband having really thoughtful conversations with
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Speaker 1: their kiddo. They're trying to work through things in a
2:01
Speaker 1: patient and autonomy supportive way, but it just doesn't seem
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Speaker 1: to be working.
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Speaker 3: One of the things that I've recognized time and time
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Speaker 3: again as each of our children have displayed challenging behavior
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Speaker 3: is that it is a symptom of something much deeper.
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Speaker 3: I think about my experiences as a teenager and just,
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Speaker 3: you know, kind of when I have smart mouth or
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Speaker 3: you know, kind of just gave my parents a really
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Speaker 3: hard time.
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Speaker 1: I can't imagine you're having a smart mouth or giving
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Speaker 1: your parents a hard time. You seem to me like
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Speaker 1: you would have been just the golden child.
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Speaker 3: You're too kind. But without fail, there was something else
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Speaker 3: going on in my life that I couldn't either articulate, yes,
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Speaker 3: or I didn't understand right, and I didn't have the
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Speaker 3: skills to be able to work through it in a
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Speaker 3: more appropriate way.
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Speaker 1: I was going to go in a different direction, but
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Speaker 1: land in the same place. When I hear a story
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Speaker 1: about this, one of the things that I immediately think
3:00
Speaker 1: is when we sit down with an.
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Speaker 2: Eleven year old or a four year old, or even.
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Speaker 1: Sometimes a seven even sometimes with our husband wife partner,
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Speaker 1: and we ask them to articulate what's going on. Sometimes
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Speaker 1: it's just too hard. Sometimes there's a lack of self awareness,
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Speaker 1: or there's a lack of insight. Sometimes they just don't know.
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Speaker 1: Sometimes you just feel lousy, you feel like everything's going wrong.
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Speaker 1: But as I was looking at this, I'm thinking there
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Speaker 1: are three basic psychological needs that we all have, and
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Speaker 1: we flourish, we thrive, We just do so well when
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Speaker 1: these needs are being met. When they're not, when we're
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Speaker 1: in an environment that thwarts or frustrates those needs, then
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Speaker 1: we see motivation drop, we see well being drop, we
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Speaker 1: see the kinds of challenging behaviors that Allison's describing in
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Speaker 1: her daughter. So those three basic psychological needs are a
3:47
Speaker 1: need for relatedness, high quality relationships, a sense of belonging connection.
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Speaker 1: They're a need for competence, like it's nice when you've
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Speaker 1: got mastery over your environment, and eleven year olds don't
4:00
Speaker 1: usually feel like they have a whole lot of mastery.
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Speaker 1: But there's also the desire for control or autonomy. I
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Speaker 1: want to live and act volitionally, and our kids really
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Speaker 1: do prize that, perhaps more than anything else. So my
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Speaker 1: initial thoughts are, Alison, I'm curious to know whether or
4:18
Speaker 1: not relationships are good at school, at home, in any
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Speaker 1: other context. Is there something that's happened in a relationship
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Speaker 1: that's undermining your ability to all get along, And is
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Speaker 1: your parenting the way that you're responding to her potentially
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Speaker 1: making her feel like the relationship is at risk. Is
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Speaker 1: there what psychologists call conditional parental regard happening where kids
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Speaker 1: get this really strong sense, oh yeah, yeah, you love
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Speaker 1: me when I do what you ask me to do,
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Speaker 1: but when I don't do the stuff that you ask
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Speaker 1: I kind of feel like you withhold you love. That's
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Speaker 1: called conditional parental regard, and that can really upset that
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Speaker 1: support for relatedness belonging needs.
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Speaker 3: I feel like I've actually gone through this process with
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Speaker 3: each of the children multiple times day front ages, and
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Speaker 3: you get to a point where often you actually stop
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Speaker 3: seeing your child as a child and you just see
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Speaker 3: them as a combination of problems. They're the back chatter,
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Speaker 3: or they've always got to have the last say, or
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Speaker 3: whatever it is they slammed all the time, and that's
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Speaker 3: what you actually start to focus on. And as humans,
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Speaker 3: I think that we're all similar in that regard, and
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Speaker 3: so God.
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Speaker 2: That's going to affect your related this need.
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Speaker 3: One hundred percent. And while ever I focus on the
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Speaker 3: problems that I see, I never am able to show
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Speaker 3: up as the parent I want to show up. I
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Speaker 3: actually have to let go of all of that and
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Speaker 3: recognize that at the core of the behavior I'm seeing
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Speaker 3: is a child who is hurting.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I have had more stories come to me than I
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Speaker 1: can count from parents who have been going through exactly this,
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Speaker 1: and I've just said to them, let's work on the
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Speaker 1: relatedst need.
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Speaker 2: And the parents will say, as I'm sure Alison would.
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Speaker 3: I'm doing everything.
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Speaker 1: So committed, and I tell her that I love her,
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Speaker 1: and I spend time with her, and we spend money
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Speaker 1: on her, and we do things together, and nothing seems
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Speaker 1: to work, at which point I would pause and say,
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Speaker 1: how much correction and direction is in the relationship? How
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Speaker 1: much does she feel unconditionally accepted When parents change their
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Speaker 1: view of the child, change their labels on the child,
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Speaker 1: when they start to focus on the child's strengths, and
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Speaker 1: when they start to really build the relationship from a
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Speaker 1: point of view that they essentially say to the child,
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Speaker 1: even when you're mad, I love you, even when you're
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Speaker 1: kicking the wall or slamming the door.
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Speaker 2: I still love you. Even when you.
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Speaker 1: Yell at your brother and you say unkind things to me.
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Speaker 2: Or your dad. I still love you. I always will.
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Speaker 2: I love you no matter what.
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Speaker 1: When we have that kind of a conversation with that child,
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Speaker 1: not usually in the middle of the slamming of the
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Speaker 1: door by.
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Speaker 2: The way, because that doesn't work so well.
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Speaker 1: But when they've calmed down half an hour later, when
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Speaker 1: they start to experience unconditional parental regard, that unconditionality doesn't
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Speaker 1: mean that we're accepting what they're doing. We're still going
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Speaker 1: to have to work that out, but we're saying, you
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Speaker 1: are so valuable to me, you are so worthy in
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Speaker 1: my eyes. There's nothing that you can do that will
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Speaker 1: change the way I feel about you. When they feel
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Speaker 1: like that, and they really believe it in their bones,
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Speaker 1: they start to change.
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Speaker 3: And I've noticed that especially there's one week in a
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Speaker 3: month in our house where everything goes, hey, wife for
7:25
Speaker 3: a little while.
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Speaker 1: What week would that be, Kylie? A house of how
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Speaker 1: many how many females?
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Speaker 2: Five right? Five men?
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Speaker 3: Females in a week and it can actually get really
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Speaker 3: full on.
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Speaker 2: And during that week, you know what I do. I
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Speaker 2: don't know if you've noticed what I do? You disappear,
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Speaker 2: I no, I do not I hug. You do a lot.
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Speaker 1: You do everyone all the time, no matter what happens.
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Speaker 1: There's an unconditional, unquestionable love that just because you're in
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Speaker 1: a bad mood doesn't mean that.
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Speaker 3: I like you, and I think you've been a wonderful
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Speaker 3: role model of doing that, because I feel like it's
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Speaker 3: something that I have started to take on board as
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Speaker 3: well as I am able to just again take that
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Speaker 3: step back and go. Things are pretty tough for this
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Speaker 3: this kiddo at the moment, and you know, just where
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Speaker 3: I would normally actually withdraw, not so much my love,
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Speaker 3: my presence, I just I just withdraw. It's like this
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Speaker 3: is I don't want to go into the lion's den
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Speaker 3: right now. I actually am seeking opportunities to just connect,
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Speaker 3: and more cases than not, it's literally just I don't
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Speaker 3: even say anything. I just go up and I grab
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Speaker 3: them into a hug, and before I know it, I
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Speaker 3: just feel the melt. That hard exteria disappears and things
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Speaker 3: just keep, you.
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Speaker 2: Know, kind of going.
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Speaker 3: And sometimes I want to talk to me about things,
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Speaker 3: and other times they don't. Sometimes they understand what's going
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Speaker 3: on and they're able to articulate it once I kind
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Speaker 3: of calm them down. Other times they have no idea
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Speaker 3: and it's like it's okay. Sometimes I have days like
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Speaker 3: that too.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, last night one of our kids was absolutely losing it.
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Speaker 1: I'm a major footbine tantrum, and when I walked into
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Speaker 1: the room, she looked at me and screamed, get out.
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Speaker 2: It was pretty hostile. I felt like I was about
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Speaker 2: to be intact.
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Speaker 1: I said, okay, I'm leaving, and as I walked out,
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Speaker 1: I said, but I would really love to hug you
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Speaker 1: and help you to feel better. So when you're ready
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Speaker 1: for a hug, you let me know, and I reckon.
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Speaker 1: It was thirty seconds later she called out to me
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Speaker 1: and said, Dad, I need a hug. And I went
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Speaker 1: and laid down on the bed with her and hugged her,
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Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, okay. So she's still going
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Speaker 1: to be explosive because she's a kid, and she's immature,
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Speaker 1: and she's irrational, and she doesn't know how to control
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Speaker 1: her and regulate her emotions and her behaviors. But her
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Speaker 1: knowing that the unconditional support that she needs is right
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Speaker 1: there means that she can pull it together.
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Speaker 2: Pretty darn quick.
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Speaker 1: And it is volatile, it is hostile, but it's short lived,
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Speaker 1: and then there's repair and restoration really fast. So that's
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Speaker 1: the first thing, Allison that we want to talk about
9:55
Speaker 1: building that connection. The second and third things coming up
9:58
Speaker 1: right off the break. Imagine a relationship where you felt seen,
10:05
Speaker 1: heard and valued. One where as your partner enters the
10:09
Speaker 1: front door, they see you and their eyes light up.
10:13
Speaker 1: A relationship like that is a gift. If you don't
10:16
Speaker 1: have it now you can. The Happy Family's webinar Better
10:19
Speaker 1: Together gives you the insight, tools and support you need
10:23
Speaker 1: to have a happier relationship. Available now at The Happy
10:26
Speaker 1: Family's web shop.
10:29
Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
10:31
Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers. Now, what other tips
10:34
Speaker 3: have you got? Doctor Colson?
10:35
Speaker 1: Okay, So the second issue that I think could be
10:37
Speaker 1: happening here in terms of thwarted or frustrated needs is
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Speaker 1: this need for competence. It sort of sounds a little
10:44
Speaker 1: bit weird to say that an eleven year old might
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Speaker 1: be feeling incompetent, but that's kind of how they live
10:48
Speaker 1: their lives. They go to school all day and they
10:49
Speaker 1: feel incompetent. They have friendship challenges and they feel incompetent.
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Speaker 1: They come home, they get told they didn't make the
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Speaker 1: bed properly, or they didn't pick up their shoes, they
10:56
Speaker 1: didn't put their jumper away, they've left bed bag in
10:58
Speaker 1: the wrong place, or they can't find their swimming gold
11:00
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. And there's all these reminders consistently
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Speaker 1: that they're incompetent, and then they struggle to regulate their
11:06
Speaker 1: emotions and their behaviors and they can't do that.
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Speaker 2: And then we sit down and say, well, you've got
11:09
Speaker 2: to do this better, and what's going on?
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Speaker 1: And there's a consistent theme, consistent message that I'm not capable.
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Speaker 1: I'm not mastering the stuff that's required. My parents they've
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Speaker 1: got it all together. They don't know our personal struggles.
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Speaker 1: They think that we've got it all together, so we
11:23
Speaker 1: seem competent. They're surrounded by competent people, but they feel
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Speaker 1: so incompetent, and that can lead them to have outbursts
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Speaker 1: and feel disregulated and really feel upset.
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Speaker 3: Do you think that sense of a lack of control
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Speaker 3: plays into this feeling of incompetence well, or is it
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Speaker 3: two totally separate things.
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Speaker 1: That's actually really closely linked to what I'm talking about here.
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Speaker 1: When you've got a child who is having emotional meltdowns,
11:47
Speaker 1: they now don't even feel competent in their capacity to
11:50
Speaker 1: maintain regulation of their emotions and their behaviors. They feel like, oh,
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Speaker 1: my goodness, I can't even do this right. And then
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Speaker 1: when we as parents step in and say, you really
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Speaker 1: need to stop having these tantrums. Really got a hold together.
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Speaker 1: This is getting out of control. It's ruining our lives.
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Speaker 1: Not that Allison's saying it like that, of course, but
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Speaker 1: sometimes when we have those conversations, the kids go, yeah,
12:10
Speaker 1: but I can't. I just don't know what's going on.
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Speaker 1: This is too much for me. It's too big.
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Speaker 2: Our job, therefore, is to help our children to develop.
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Speaker 1: A sense of competence and give them experiences at not
12:22
Speaker 1: getting in trouble, at not getting things wrong, or if
12:25
Speaker 1: they do get things wrong, not feeling like we have
12:27
Speaker 1: to correct and direct every single thing. So I've had
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Speaker 1: a really big insight. This is one of my biggest
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Speaker 1: parenting insights of the year. When the kids do something
12:34
Speaker 1: that's not right, I don't correct them anymore. Like if
12:38
Speaker 1: they come into the kitchen and they're cleaning the dishes
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Speaker 1: and they don't do it properly, or they I don't know,
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Speaker 1: they set the table poorly, or they don't make their
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Speaker 1: bed properly, I don't worry about correcting them. I'm just
12:48
Speaker 1: glad that they were there and that they gave it
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Speaker 1: a go because over time, the more they do it,
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Speaker 1: the more they practice it, the better they get at it.
12:55
Speaker 1: And it's the same with regulating their emotions. They can't
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Speaker 1: regulate their emotions, so they're feeling competent. I'm not going
12:59
Speaker 1: to go correcting them for it. I'm just going to
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Speaker 1: love them and let them know that they're having a
13:03
Speaker 1: tough time but they're getting better and I'm there for
13:06
Speaker 1: them and.
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Speaker 2: We'll figure it all out.
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Speaker 1: So competence needs to be satisfied. It takes so much
13:12
Speaker 1: effort on our part to help them to feel safe
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Speaker 1: and to feel competent. But that's I think potentially what's
13:20
Speaker 1: going on. Maybe she's just feeling like she's no good
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Speaker 1: at things. You think about it, when you're not feeling
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Speaker 1: competent in life, like you just you feel lousy and
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Speaker 1: you want to lash out and it doesn't feel good.
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Speaker 1: Motivations low well, beings low well.
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Speaker 3: And the worst thing is that you then lash out
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Speaker 3: and then you feel even worse about it because you've.
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Speaker 1: Just demonstrated you're incompetence. Yeah, and now you've ruptured relationships
13:40
Speaker 1: as well. And this ties in with the third need
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Speaker 1: I mean all three of these, they're inseparably connected. And
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Speaker 1: the third one is a sense of volition, a sense
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Speaker 1: of autonomy, control over your own life. And so when
13:51
Speaker 1: you are lashing out, you feel like you're out of control.
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Speaker 1: There's a part of you that feels like I'm doing
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Speaker 1: this on purpose. I'm lashing out because I'm so angry
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Speaker 1: and I'm in control here, and this is my way
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Speaker 1: of making control. But there's a deep part of our
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Speaker 1: psyche that understands that we are now out of control.
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Speaker 1: We have no control whatsoever. We're feeling completely controlled by
14:07
Speaker 1: the situation, which is why we've lashed out in an
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Speaker 1: attempt to regain control. But that attempt to regain control is.
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Speaker 2: A complete loss of a complete loss.
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Speaker 1: Of control, and it demonstrates how out of control we are,
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Speaker 1: how lacking in control and volition we are, because we're
14:22
Speaker 1: lashing out because we don't have it. And so when
14:25
Speaker 1: you've got an eleven year old, she wants to control everything.
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Speaker 1: She probably wants to be on social media, and she
14:28
Speaker 1: wants to be in charge of the TV remote, and
14:30
Speaker 1: she wants to be able to ride her bike whenever
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Speaker 1: she wants, or eat as much ice cream or junk
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Speaker 1: food as she wants. She wants control over how much
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Speaker 1: homework she does, what books she read, when she comes
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Speaker 1: to the table, when she goes to bed.
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Speaker 2: This is what kids.
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Speaker 1: They want control over their lives, and as parents, we're
14:42
Speaker 1: constantly taking that control away. So how do we meet
14:46
Speaker 1: these basic psychological needs?
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Speaker 2: Alison?
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Speaker 1: The advice that I would give to any parent in
14:51
Speaker 1: this situation is we continue the conversations that you're having,
14:55
Speaker 1: but focus less on coming up with solutions and focus
14:59
Speaker 1: more on love. So explore what's going on. You're really
15:02
Speaker 1: having a hard time. Here's what we're seeing. What are
15:05
Speaker 1: we missing? Recognizing she might not have the insight, and
15:09
Speaker 1: you might say to her, we have some expectations. We
15:12
Speaker 1: need to put some structure in place so that you
15:13
Speaker 1: can be safe and healthy and so that you can
15:15
Speaker 1: behave in helpful ways. And then you problem solve together
15:18
Speaker 1: what structures can we put in place and what should
15:20
Speaker 1: we do when things do go wrong? But more than anything,
15:23
Speaker 1: unconditionality from your end is.
15:26
Speaker 2: Going to make the biggest difference.
15:27
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a satisfying podcast response, Allison,
15:31
Speaker 1: but that's the direction I'm inclined to go.
15:34
Speaker 3: So what happens though, when you're doing all of this
15:38
Speaker 3: stuff and your kids are still doing the wrong thing.
15:41
Speaker 1: So I listened to a parenting podcast just the other
15:42
Speaker 1: day from a highly regarded United States psychologist who said,
15:47
Speaker 1: we need to use our parental power to change the environment.
15:50
Speaker 1: Let them know if they're going to behave in certain
15:52
Speaker 1: ways that they just cannot have certain privileges. To me,
15:57
Speaker 1: that reinforces our children competence, It ruptures the relationship, and
16:01
Speaker 1: it takes control and autonomy away from them. That means
16:04
Speaker 1: that it undermines their basic psychological needs. It creates shame in
16:07
Speaker 1: our child, which increases their anxiety, their feelings of unworthiness,
16:10
Speaker 1: their worries, which often leads to them acting in even
16:13
Speaker 1: more anti social ways, and can reinforce and repeat the
16:17
Speaker 1: cycle every now and again. We do need to step
16:19
Speaker 1: in with some level of control as parents. We can't
16:21
Speaker 1: let the kids run roughshot over the family. But the
16:23
Speaker 1: way we do it is critically important, and it really
16:26
Speaker 1: requires us to sit down and essentially go through that
16:28
Speaker 1: process where we explore their work, we explain our expectations,
16:31
Speaker 1: and we come up with solutions together and if they
16:33
Speaker 1: can't get it together after we've done that we say, well,
16:35
Speaker 1: I guess we need to do this again.
16:38
Speaker 2: And here's what we know, Kylie, because we've.
16:40
Speaker 1: Now got three adult children and another one who's fifteen, right,
16:44
Speaker 1: I mean, she's only three years off being an adult
16:46
Speaker 1: as well. What we know is that this process is hard,
16:49
Speaker 1: it's laborious, it's time consuming, but it works.
16:53
Speaker 3: It really does. I think about, literally, in the last
16:56
Speaker 3: few weeks, having had a couple of key conversations with
16:59
Speaker 3: a you of our children, and the impact that it's
17:02
Speaker 3: made on our entire family as a result. Was I
17:05
Speaker 3: ready to have the conversation. No? Did I have the
17:07
Speaker 3: time to have the conversation?
17:09
Speaker 2: No?
17:10
Speaker 3: Was I exhausted and just wanted to go to bed? Yes,
17:13
Speaker 3: But those conversations matter. And what I've seen as a
17:18
Speaker 3: result is two kids who were just really struggling, and
17:21
Speaker 3: they're still struggling to get it right, but they're trying,
17:24
Speaker 3: and I can see it in both of them.
17:26
Speaker 1: And I guess there's one other thing that I'd say
17:28
Speaker 1: in wrapping up this whole conversation. It might sound glib,
17:31
Speaker 1: but it's not meant to. It's actually a considered response,
17:34
Speaker 1: and that is that sometimes you just need to ignore it.
17:37
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's stuff that's going on, the kids are challenging,
17:40
Speaker 1: they're dealing with their own stuff, and all you do
17:43
Speaker 1: is say, yeah, you have a rough day.
17:44
Speaker 2: We'll talk about it later, kick.
17:46
Speaker 1: It down the road, deal with it on Saturday when
17:49
Speaker 1: you're having breakfast or having a milkshake or something like that.
17:51
Speaker 1: Just let it go, because if we turn every single
17:55
Speaker 1: infraction into another conversation that we need to have, all
17:59
Speaker 1: a does is burdens our child. Now, I don't want
18:02
Speaker 1: it to sound like I'm being dismissive here. Like I said,
18:04
Speaker 1: this is a considered response. I'm not saying just ignore
18:06
Speaker 1: it and it'll be fine. That's that's what I'm saying.
18:09
Speaker 1: What I'm suggesting is choose your times to intervene, be
18:14
Speaker 1: really intentional about it, and if you can, sometimes it's
18:17
Speaker 1: easier just to let it go and then maybe pick
18:20
Speaker 1: it up again tomorrow and say, hey, what happened last
18:22
Speaker 1: night was a bit of a challenge. I got my
18:25
Speaker 1: arm around you right now. I love you like crazy,
18:27
Speaker 1: but we got to do better. What can I do
18:29
Speaker 1: to help by being really intentional about when you step in,
18:32
Speaker 1: about when you offer the guidance, about when you explore,
18:34
Speaker 1: explain and empower about when you get involved, create structures
18:38
Speaker 1: and support their autonomy and go through that process, you
18:41
Speaker 1: just get better outcomes.
18:43
Speaker 3: I love that question. How can I help? Yeah, just
18:46
Speaker 3: you know that acknowledgment that I am here to help
18:49
Speaker 3: you succeed.
18:50
Speaker 1: So how can we help? If you've got any parenting questions,
18:53
Speaker 1: anything burning through your parenting conscience and you'd like some guidance,
18:58
Speaker 1: you can email us podcasts at happy families dot com
19:01
Speaker 1: dot au. We would love to hear from you, and
19:02
Speaker 1: we'd love to be as helpful as possible in making
19:04
Speaker 1: your family happier. We really appreciate the work of Justin
19:07
Speaker 1: Ruland from Bridge Media.
19:08
Speaker 2: He's our producer. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
19:11
Speaker 1: And if you'd like more information about getting your family
19:13
Speaker 1: on track making your family happier, please check out our
19:16
Speaker 1: Happy Families memberships at happy families dot com dot au