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From the Archives: One of Brian and Mike’s First-ever UK Column Broadcasts · UK Column Radio

• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Well good afternoon from me Brian Gerrish and Mike Robinson
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: in the UK Column Live studio in Plymouth England and
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: we've got another 30 minutes news program for you today.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: We're going to home in on the Lord's reform, which
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: we believe is a critical area of government policy at
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the moment that is not being accurately reported in the
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: mainstream press. So we'll be coming on to that in
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: a minute to have a look at it in detail.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: We've got a guest in the studio today. That's Mr.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Tony Schell, who is also going to comment on the
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Lord's reform issue.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Excuse me.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Before we get on to that, I'd just like to
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: comment on a couple of issues in the mainstream press today.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: We've got G4S security, of course, where finally the mainstream
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: press and media have picked up on failings within the company. Now,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: we are quite interested in the fact that alternative media
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: was reporting these serious failings by G4S weeks, literally weeks
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: before anything was appearing in the mainstream media and press.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: And this really shows us the power of alternative media.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: So thank you to all of you who've tuned into
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the UK column live this afternoon. But of course, there
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: are many other stations that are now coming online reporting
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: because of the failure of organisations such as the BBC
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: to report truthfully what's actually happening in the country. I've
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: got two stories which really work back to back because
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: whilst G4S is failing dramatically to implement an appropriate level
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: of security for the Olympic Games, We've also got David
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Cameron back on the subject of Iran. And we've also
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: had recently Sir John Sawyer's head of secret intelligence services, MI6,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: commenting on this issue. So at the moment in Britain,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: we have the bizarre situation where David Cameron's government is
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: incapable of providing security for the Olympic Games. We have
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: given that task to a private security company, G4S, that
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: has failed to provide the number, the 17,500 security personnel
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: that it was tasked within the £ 284 million contract. We
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: are now having to bring in 3,500 British forces to
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: help bolster their failings. This is, of course, more men
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: being taken from a British army which is about to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: be cut by 20,000 men. So whilst David Cameron at
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: the moment is busy cutting the British army to the
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: bone and ensuring that it becomes more and more difficult
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: for the British army to defend this country properly, we
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: also have the same David Cameron talking about what action
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: he's going to be taking against Iran and there seems
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: to be a big hole in the middle of these
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: two subjects. The story for Sir John Sawyers is that
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: he's claiming that thanks to action by MI6 together with
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: American security services and Israeli security services they have been
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: able to stop progress by Iran in creating nuclear weapons
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: and that we should be grateful for the work carried
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: out by MI6. But he goes on to say that
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: nevertheless it's expected that Iran will have nuclear weapons within
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: two years, and thus they have only managed to delay
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: any decision by the British government to attack Iran. What
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: is particularly interesting with Sir John Sawyer's comments is is
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: that he continually refers to problems with American and Israeli
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: security to the extent that one has to ask whether
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: his true agenda is to work for the British people
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: in ensuring that it is Britain that is protected and
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: the British people that are protected, or are his interests
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: really lying both with the Israelis and the Americans? We
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: will wait to see how this subject develops, but it
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: does appear clear that whilst we're incapable of providing proper
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: security at the Olympic Games, the government is now moving
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: along a path to take some form of pre-emptive strike
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: against Iran. OK, well, we'll now move on to the
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: subject of House of Lords reform. One of the key issues, Mike,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: on this one has been what Mr Nick Clegg has
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: been doing in the background recently, And a subject which
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: UK columns consistently picked up on is the fact that
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: whilst David Cameron is the man we continually see in
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: front of the cameras and the man who's continually speaking
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: on what is and is not happening in the country,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: it's Mr Nick Clegg who remains hidden in the shadows
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: and is clearly pulling strings on one of the most
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: serious areas of this country at the moment. and that
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: is so-called reform of the Constitution. So getting to that background, Mike,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: how do you see Nick Clegg's efforts on House of
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Lords reform?
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right. Nick Clegg has clearly been tasked
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: with constitutional reform, not just House of Lords. But he's
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: talking about, for example, a new Bill of Rights. Well,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: we've got a Bill of Rights. The government is attempting
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: to more or less deny that we have one, but
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: we have one. And it was interesting that during his
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: speeches in the House of Commons, Clegg keeps referring to
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: this process of House of Lords reform being a 100-year process.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And so it might be worthwhile just to look back
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: at why he considers that a 100-year process, because what
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: he's actually referring to is the 1911 Parliament Act. And
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: that act was the first attempt to... effectively remove the
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: power of the House of Lords to restrict the activities
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: of the House of Commons. And it came about because
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: a bill was presented, a finance bill was presented to
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: the House of Commons in 1910, which went through Parliament.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: But our monarch at the time, which I believe was
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Edward VII, refused royal assent on that bill because he
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: felt that this was not a constitutional bill It was
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: a bill to raise taxes.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: And so he refused royal assent on that. Unfortunately, he
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: then died. And the following year, in 1911, that Parliament
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Act was resubmitted. Well, just to clarify that, the House
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: of Lords was preventing the finance bill from going through.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: So the Prime Minister of the day attempted to get
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: the Parliament Act through in order to sort of restrict
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: the limit, to limit the House of Lords' power to
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: limit the House of Commons, if you follow me right. Right.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: So the Parliament Act went through in 1911. Right. And
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: that did restrict the House of Lords capabilities to limit
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the House of Commons. But that stayed status quo then
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: up until 1998, when, of course, we had the big
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Tony Blair reorganization of the House of Lords, where they
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: threw out the hereditary peers and started appointing peers. And
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: now what they're talking about is this business of having
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: an 80% elected House of Lords, that the individuals who
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: are elected would stand for a single term of 15 years,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: and that the constituencies that they stand for would be
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: drawn on a European standard. So Britain is already divided
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: up into regions, as part of the European project, and
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: these constituencies would be along those lines. Now, as has
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: been widely reported in the media, there's been a fairly
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: big backlash on all sides of the House, because Clegg's
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: initiative for House of Lords reform is supported by all
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: three party leaderships, but backbenchers in all three parties seem
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: to be possibly less than the Liberal Democrats, but certainly
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: in the Labour and Conservative Party there are a lot
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: of backbenchers that are against this principle of changing the
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: House of Lords any further.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Right, fine, just come in there. I can imagine that
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of people are thinking, well actually we've had
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: a system where people can come into the House of
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Lords just because of who they are, what families they
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: were born into. And what's being proposed is a democratic system.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: What are the dangers that you see of the system
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: that is being created at the moment by Mr.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Clegg? Well, of course, we're having this word democracy bandied
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: about quite a lot in the last 10 years or so,
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: 10 or 15 years, and particularly with regards to regime
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: change in other countries. We know we've got to change
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: the regime and we've got to put democracy in, but
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: what type of democracy is it? Because in general, what
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: we're looking at is is a form of participatory democracy where, yes, okay,
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: you have elections and members of parliament are elected or
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: whatever your particular government form is, Congress or whatever it is.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: But what happens is that those people then don't represent
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: the views of their constituents. Those people then tend to
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: represent the views of politicians charities or of financial institutions
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: or of corporations to their constituents. So the policy seems
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: to be set that what we call democracy isn't really
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: democracy because there's policy gets fed in from other places,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: from third parties that aren't the public. And then that
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: policy is sold to the public by our representatives. So
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: the democracy that we have is 180 degrees out really
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: from where it should be.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: So the people that they're talking about bringing into the
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: House of Lords, what you're flagging up is that these
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: people are sold to us as being independent people. We
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: should respect and trust them because they're not linked to
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: historic families in the country. But in fact, what's going
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: to happen is we're actually going to bring in people
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: through the political system. They're going to be tainted by the.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Well, it's worse than that in a sense because... Yeah,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: it's being presented as being these people are now elected
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: and they're now accountable to the public. But, of course,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: they'll be members of the same parties that are in
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: the House of Commons. Yes. So they'll be whipped the
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: same way that the House of Commons is whipped. So
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: where is the oversight on the activities of the House
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: of Commons in the House of Lords? There isn't any.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: And then, of course, you've got the potential of an
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: American style, you know, Conservatives in the Commons, Labour majority
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: in the Lords and Deadlock. Well, they're dealing with that
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: by only having an 80% elected House of Lords and
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: the other 20% are appointed. So, you know, there is
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: no democracy in this. It's actually dictatorship in wolf and
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: sheep's clothing, if you want to put it that way.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Well, Fabian is the correct description from that, is that
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: this is a creeping... This is an attack on our
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Constitution and a direct attack on the House of Lords,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: which is being done as a step-by-step process.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Right, but to answer the question of, well, are hereditary
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: peers a better system? Well, in a sense they are,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: assuming that it assumes certain conditions. I mean, it assumes
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: that they're educated in our Constitution, that they're willing to
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: take the role, that they're there to serve. And, you know,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: so no system is perfect, but that was a better
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: system because actually, if you look historically, the hereditary, I mean,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: the reason that the Parliament Act was brought in in
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: the first place was because the hereditary peers at the
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: time simply said, this piece of legislation that the Commons
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: is attempting to put through is unconstitutional. We cannot allow
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: it to pass. Right. And so the Parliament Act was
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: brought in in order to stop the Lords from doing
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: that thing. Now, you know, I've said this to many people,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: but I was sitting in a pub one day with
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: a friend from South Africa. And so he's looking at Britain.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: He'd been working in Britain for a couple of years
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: and he's looking at Britain as an outsider. And he's saying,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: you know, He said to me, it staggers me that
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: the only people in this country that are making any
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: effort to protect civil liberties and privacy are the unelected Lords.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: And he was making a valid point. The Commons seems
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: to have an agenda that it's determined to push through
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: at all costs. I'm talking about the party leaderships here.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And if we don't have this oversight and this separation
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: of powers and this limiting ability in an upper chamber
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: we're really heading down some pretty dangerous.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah by limiting you you really mean that the house
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: of lords has the ability to protect by having a
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: look a second look at policy that's coming through the
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: commons and saying no this is not good so it's
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: a protection.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: It's exactly right so you know and in the house
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: of lords you would you would expect that in that
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: chamber you've got people that are more experienced have seen
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: a bit more of the world and maybe have a
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: better understanding of how the country is supposed to be
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: run than some of the people that are in the Commons,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: particularly in recent years, a lot younger. Our Prime Minister
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: is a lot younger than the typical Prime Minister of
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: 100 years ago. He knows nothing. He has no experience
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: of the world, really. So what qualifies him to do
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: the job? That's possibly a different question.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't know the answer to that. We certainly
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: don't know the answer to that. Would it be appropriate
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: to bring Tony in to just comment on that?
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, Mike, you touched on the key issue here,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: and that is that of the introduction of party politics
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: into the upper house. Very recently, Betty Boothroyd, who was
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: formerly the leader of the House of Commons, raised very
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: serious concerns about what's going on, particularly from the constitutional
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: point of view. And one of the points that she
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: made was, her great concern at the introduction of a
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: guillotine on debate.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: On this issue.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Now, I think that illustrates very neatly the problems of
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: trying to introduce the current type of party politics that
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: we see in the House of Commons into the House
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: of Lords. It will introduce that type of political debate,
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: plus the influence behind those political parties of various other
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: interest groups. So I think it's very important that the
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: House of Laws is retained as an authority on constitution
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: and as an oversight on the lower chamber?
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Well, of course, one of the things going on at
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: the moment is that the, say Parliament, because there are
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: a number of people in this game, but Parliament is
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: busy telling us at the moment that we don't have
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: a constitution. This is one of the biggest lies perpetrated
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: on the British public ever. because clearly we do have
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: a constitution and we can show quite clearly that countries overseas,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: particularly Commonwealth countries, have used our constitution in order to
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: build their own system of law. But Mr Clegg has
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: been incredibly outspoken saying that we do not have a constitution.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Mandelson is another one that's been pushing this lie and
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: in my opinion, what's actually happening is that they're now
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: building on that lie to say, oh, well, we now
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: need something else to change the House of Lords. And
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I agree with what you're saying, is that the House
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: of Lords is a key part of the process of
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: freedom and democracy in a proper sense.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: It's also very strange that they're introducing this now. From
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: what I can see, there's no public clamour for these changes.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: People aren't out on the street protesting. They want to
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: change to the House of Lords or to our Constitution.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: As you say, the politicians are trying to avoid these
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: issues of our actual Constitution and what changes these could imply.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I think they're doing more than just avoiding them. They're
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: actively denying that they exist. Clegg has stated that Britain
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: needs a Bill of Rights. the statement that he's made
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: is Britain needs a Bill of Rights. Now he's not
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: telling an out and out lie in the sense that
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: he's not saying the words Britain does not have a
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Bill of Rights and it needs one, but he is
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: implying that Britain does not have a Bill of Rights
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: when he says Britain needs a Bill of Rights. We
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: do not need a Bill of Rights. And the key
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: thing about our Constitution that we've talked about many, many
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: times before is that It's based on the principle that
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: we have unlimited God-given rights except where we're expressly denied
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: the right to do something through some form of law.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: So we are free to do what we like unless
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: it's prohibited by law. That's contrary to other European countries
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: where everything is prohibited unless it's permitted by law. So
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: One of the key problems with human rights legislation that
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: I see is that it's basically coming from the European
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: idea that we don't have any rights except for the
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: ones which are listed down on the human rights document.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: In this country, it's the opposite. We have all rights.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Our rights are protected. They should be protected, constitutionally protected,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and really the Bill of Rights is there to reinforce
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: that assumption. So what Clegg is attempting to do with
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: all this constitutional reform, whether it be the House of
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Lords or the Bill of Rights, the new Bill of Rights,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: is to limit the rights and the protections that people have.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: And that's why it's such a dangerous thing that they're doing.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: One of the key areas that they're damaging at the
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: moment is this idea of the separation of powers. How
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: do we describe the separation of powers in a simple way?
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: There's always some kind of oversight in any particular area
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: of government, so whether it be the Commons, the Lords,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: the Judiciary, there's oversight between them all and they're protecting
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: the public from any one section of government overstepping its
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: authority and acting beyond its authority as the common purpose.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: A lot like to Well, that's absolutely true.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I think there's an issue here, and I think the
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: issue is deceit. This is what I see, is that
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: people have never really been interested in the House of
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Lords for what it is. It's been something that's been there.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: They've heard it mentioned. Lords have spoken out on issues.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: But people have been very happy with the system because
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: the system has been providing... a basically an orderly society.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: It's been working. This is how I see it. And
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: so the average person in the street, and I was
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: one of them, I knew the House of Lords existed,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: but because everything's working properly, you don't need to know
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: much about it. What's happening now is we have the
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: government actually starting to attack the House of Lords. So
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: they are attacking the foundation of constitution and law and
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: order in this country. and they're not telling us the
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: truth as to why they're doing it, but clearly what
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: they are doing is taking Britain from a country based
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: on common law into a new Britain where we are
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: being forced into the European system of corpus juris, basically.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: I also think that it's very worthwhile for... people to
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: look at the quality of debate in the two houses.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: If you watch on TV the quality of debate in
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: the Commons, which is basically an adversarial party political type
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: of debate, if you can call it debate, it's quite
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: often just a slangy match, but you look at the
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: quality of debate, particularly on constitutional matters, in the House
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: of Lords, and it's very, very impressive. So I think
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: people should take note of that, and I think they
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: do take note of that, and they will be very
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: reluctant to see the House of Lords just becoming another
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: House of Commons with that same slangy-matched type of debate.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: That goes on.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: And, of course, the House of Lords, I think I'm
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: correct in saying, also forms the highest court in the land, ultimately.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: It used to, but they changed that with the formation
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: of the Supreme Court, of course.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Which, of course, was part of the tactics of destabilising
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the House of Lords. So what we can be clear
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: about is that if we actually start to watch in
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: detail what's going on here around Cameron and Clegg, but
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: is happening across all three parties, is there is a
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: steady subversive dismantling of the constitutional structure of this country.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know whether you'd agree with that.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: So, well, yes. But so anyway, the reason that we
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: wanted to to talk about this today was because, of course,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: on Monday or Tuesday this week, the government did a
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: U-turn because they realized that they couldn't get support for
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: the timetable for this reform legislation. So the vote went
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: through to create the bill, as it were, but they
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: didn't get the vote for the timetable, so that can't progress. Now,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: what Clegg has said is that they will work on
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: the rebel MPs over the summer period in the hope
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: that they can get this timetable approved for the new
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: session in September. And really, you know, we don't want
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: to let that just go. We've got to encourage, you know,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: don't normally recommend writing to MPs necessarily because generally it
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: doesn't garner a response that is of benefit to you,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: but But there were so many MPs that rebelled on
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: this thing that I feel that it might be worthwhile
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: writing to the MPs that did rebel and offering support
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: because normally they get letters complaining about this or saying
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: you didn't do that. But this is an opportunity to say, look,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: we appreciate what you did and we support it and
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: hopefully that would give them the encouragement that they need
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: to stand their ground, because I'm quite sure that the
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: whips are going to offer some pretty serious pressure over
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: the next two or three months to try and push
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: this through for September, and it really is vital that
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: they do not win this vote.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that's coming to my head
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: as this discussion is moving along is, of course, we've
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: recently had the arrest and imprisonment of the... chairman of
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: the British Constitution Group, Roger Hayes. Roger was arrested early
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: in the morning by the police and some nine hours later,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: he's in Liverpool prison, having been denied all basic process
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: in a court. So he was not represented. He was
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: unable to defend himself in the court. There was no jury.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: There was no public. There were no public and there
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: was no press. So at the moment, we can see
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: that we are moving towards a system where a sole
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: judge or maybe three judges in a court are making decisions.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: And we are seeing a direct attack on our liberties,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: which means that we are now at the stage where
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: you can just be lifted off the street. At the
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: same time, we've got Clegg reporting. talking about working on MPs,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: and you've mentioned, Mike, the use of whips. Well, of course,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: we know that under our Constitution, any vote that's taken
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: in Westminster should be a free vote. This is one
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: of the points raised by the British Constitution Group, is
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: that the use of whips in order to blackmail, bully
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and browbeat MPs into making a decision is itself a
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: process which is unlawful under our constitution.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Well, that's one of the features of the Bill of Rights.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons that they want to replace
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: that piece of legislation.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, we start off by mentioning a
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: little bit on Iran, but we've got the situation at
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: the moment where Westminster is able to take this country
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: to war. That's not a good expression. We've got the
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: situation where we can attack other nation states, not following
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: some free, detailed and free debate within Westminster, but simply
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: on the basis of a cabal of MPs clustered around
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Tony Blair or Gordon Brown or David Cameron now. So
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things that we'd like to
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: say to viewers and listeners today is that if you
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: have still not really picked up on this debate, which
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: is started over the House of Lords, it's incredibly important
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: because it is a direct attack on freedoms and liberties.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Would you like to say anything else? We've got three,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: two minutes now. If you've got any other points, Tony?
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. Okay.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Anything to add on that?
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: No, all I would just say, I'll just make the
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: point that, you know, no system of government is perfect,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: of course. Yeah. the system of government that is held
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: up as being most perfect is the United States Republic.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: I would make the point that actually they are in
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: no better position than we are. In fact, their constitution
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: is being just as undermined as ours. At the end
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: of the day, the ultimate oversight of what politicians and
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: what governments do is the people. We've got to educate
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: everybody that we know about what the issues are and
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: remind people that if they want to maintain their freedoms,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: they've got to take some kind of action themselves. And
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: the people are the ultimate... oversight of all this kind
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: of activity so get educated and take action is the
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: key message.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Okay well we can end on one example of that
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: is recently I was summoned to appear at court in
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Spain to act as a defense witness that was actually
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: in the trial of Leanne Smith. I received a document
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: from the Home Office which was delivered to the offices
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: here in Plymouth and it was very interesting because the
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Home Office document informed me that I was being summonsed
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: to appear at the court hearing in Spain. It then
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: said that I under British law, I had no obligation
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: to appear at that hearing. However, if I did not
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: appear at that hearing, I could be at risk of
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: penalties under Spanish law. What was even more fascinating is
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: it then advised me to go to a local solicitor
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: in order to understand the relationship between those two laws.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: So I have recently written to my MP, who's Mr
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Gary Streeter of the Tory party, and I've asked him
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: in an open and public letter if he will explain
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: to me how I can now live in a country
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: where I'm operating under British law, but should the Spanish
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: wish to summons me to Spain to answer any questions
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: which they may wish to put to me, I have
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: to obey that law as well.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: And no protection from the UK.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: And there's no protection from UK. So I'm looking forward
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: to Mr Streeter's response to my letter. But that underlines
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: the fact that if we now had several million people
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: demanding answers from their MPs, we could strengthen the resolve
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: of those good MPs that are starting to get worried
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: about what Mr Cameron is doing to dismantle our constitution. Okay, well,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: we're at the end of our 30 minutes. Always seems
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to go very quickly. So we're going to thank all
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: the viewers and listeners for joining us for UK Column
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Live this week. We'll be back online Monday at 12 o'clock.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: And we hope you'll join us for more direct analysis
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: of what's really happening in UK. Thanks very much.