Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Carl McInerney

Transcript

Cutting Through with Carl McInerney · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

• 0:19
  Welcome to Cutting through and today's session I have the
• 0:22
  pleasure and having Carl Mcenany with me.
• 0:25
  Carl and I have known each other for we worked out it is
• 0:28
  approaching 20 years merely when we both worked together at Coca
• 0:33
  Cola Enterprises. Ever since then, he's always
• 0:35
  been a stalwart of consumer goods companies.
• 0:38
  And I'm going to hand over to you, Carl, to give a bit of a
• 0:40
  background of where you've been and where you are now.
• 0:43
  I'm. Natasha Yeah, it's been a long
• 0:45
  time since our time in Coca Cola.
• 0:46
  Now my background, as you say, it's always been FMC.
• 0:49
  I spent about 12 years in a in a big national global Brewer,
• 0:53
  which is very exciting brands like Carling Black Label.
• 0:57
  I then spent about 12 years in the Coca Cola system again, very
• 1:01
  exciting brand. And from there I went into the
• 1:04
  world of Palace for for quite a while.
• 1:08
  So it's less exciting. And you could describe them as
• 1:11
  the bottom of the food chain, quite literally hitting that
• 1:14
  warehouse floor at times. And and of course I mention it
• 1:17
  because a very different product to talk about in terms of comms.
• 1:21
  So that's my background in Coke. I worked in initially supply
• 1:25
  chain, but then in marketing operations.
• 1:28
  So all that work in building new products, launching new
• 1:31
  products, that's my background. But now I'm with a New Zealand
• 1:35
  startup selling in UK and Europe, supply chain technology
• 1:40
  in fresh produce, but also the categories as well.
• 1:43
  That's me now. Look, supply chain is always a
• 1:46
  really important part that hasn't always had its, its time
• 1:50
  in the sun, has it, as as a part of businesses, seeing as
• 1:53
  something happens in the background.
• 1:55
  But when we talk about supply chain, how we move our products
• 1:59
  and how we move them so they don't get ruined and don't get
• 2:01
  broken is a critical part of making sure your cost of goods
• 2:05
  are maintained. So I look forward to talking a
• 2:07
  little bit more about pallets in a moment.
• 2:09
  But before we get on to that, let's kind of go back and also a
• 2:12
  bit of into Korea. We talked about a kind of the
• 2:15
  most unusual career moment that you've had.
• 2:17
  Dare. We even go there, Sasha Berg,
• 2:20
  because it's the D word. It is.
• 2:22
  Some will remember it, some will not remember it.
• 2:25
  Yeah, it's Disani. Yeah.
• 2:26
  We didn't have our own waters in Coca Cola.
• 2:29
  We were putting licenced brands in our fridges and we served
• 2:32
  notice on that because we were going big with Disani.
• 2:35
  We launched it. It was the biggest launch for
• 2:38
  decades in terms of the scale and the speed of getting that in
• 2:41
  place. And then it maybe it's forward
• 2:44
  at another time, but we had issues with it.
• 2:46
  We had to withdraw it from the marketplace and you and I worked
• 2:49
  on the IMCR incident management crisis resolution.
• 2:52
  So another whole kind of technical area for cons that we
• 2:56
  were certainly very well trained in and used to use agents
• 2:59
  sometimes there's so lots of talks with the Food Standards
• 3:01
  Agency, talking to the press and really a really difficult time
• 3:06
  in terms of massive, proud, big launch and then worked on it for
• 3:10
  years. And then huge kind of with
• 3:12
  withdrawal and very sad time, big hole in the budget.
• 3:16
  But we, we managed it professionally with dignity.
• 3:20
  And it was big life lessons, yeah, big career lessons.
• 3:23
  And but we did finally, we did go on and buy purchase of water
• 3:26
  and yeah, back in the game. I think a lot of what we talk
• 3:29
  about with communications more broadly is really get to know
• 3:33
  your audience, really get to know what they think, what they
• 3:35
  know, what they understand about you as a company and what their
• 3:38
  market needs are. And I think one of the things
• 3:40
  that I learned most over that period is the European
• 3:44
  requirement for kind of the different types of waters.
• 3:47
  Is it a mineral water? Is it a spring water?
• 3:49
  Or is it as designing was, which is a table water?
• 3:52
  And of course, the many Americans got quite shocked by
• 3:55
  the viciousness of the UK media when they start understanding
• 3:59
  and researching all those different types of waters.
• 4:02
  For me, it definitely has a massive comms lesson in you've
• 4:06
  got to know your market and you can't just transfer something
• 4:10
  from other market and just hope and pray that it will work
• 4:13
  without understanding how different humans may react and
• 4:16
  respond. That leads me straight onto some
• 4:18
  of those commercial problems and commercial issues that you're
• 4:20
  looking at now. So explain to me where you're at
• 4:23
  with Palette Earth now, and what kind of what's what's really
• 4:26
  keeping you awake at night? We we've got a, we've got a
• 4:30
  great products, brilliant leading edge technology and
• 4:35
  we're delivering it through a device that's a pallet.
• 4:37
  It could be other devices as well, it could be other
• 4:39
  platforms, but we haven't got a name.
• 4:42
  And unlike Coca Cola, we haven't got a big budget either.
• 4:45
  So return on investment and cut through is really important.
• 4:49
  It's a starter, but we're entering a market that's been
• 4:52
  established for decades and there are the nature of it.
• 4:58
  It has to be at scale because it's returnable, recyclable and
• 5:03
  you're playing in a very mutual market with a few big players
• 5:07
  and your customers are also established huge and
• 5:11
  standardised. So you have to work within that
• 5:14
  market. So it's people like top end
• 5:16
  retail grocers and also top end suppliers as well and they have
• 5:21
  standardised systems. They're very busy trying to get
• 5:24
  to the right people at very senior level because it's we're
• 5:28
  selling an opportunity here. It's strategic, it's future
• 5:31
  direction, digitising supply chains, it's strategic and
• 5:36
  you've got to get senior buy in. So that's my issue.
• 5:39
  That's where I'm at where we've got a few good case studies at
• 5:42
  small level, but I have to break into the big market.
• 5:46
  But some people know me already, but the big market to create
• 5:49
  scale. Otherwise we may as well just
• 5:51
  pack them and go home. That's where I'm at.
• 5:53
  Just take, let's take a step back around people who haven't
• 5:55
  worked in supply chain and haven't worked in consumer goods
• 5:58
  companies. So yeah, when people think
• 6:00
  pallets or when they see pallets, unfortunately they see
• 6:03
  them often at the side of a road where they've been dumped or
• 6:05
  they'll see if they're going to Costco's or one of the big, big
• 6:09
  retailers. It's what transports all of your
• 6:12
  goods around from your supply chain through to being on shelf.
• 6:16
  And they've always just been throw away wood products,
• 6:18
  haven't they? So what makes Pallet Earth
• 6:21
  differently? Sustainability seems like a
• 6:23
  really important element to what you're trying to achieve and
• 6:26
  deliver on. Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:29
  I mean, you know, we have to be disruptive.
• 6:31
  We have to be a game changer. Otherwise why would anybody look
• 6:34
  at us? So a traditional palette would
• 6:37
  be grown, grown from a tree that takes 40 years and then you have
• 6:40
  to cut the forest down. And a lot of people will make
• 6:42
  that sustainable and regrow it, replant it, but then it goes
• 6:45
  into the market. If it's a, if it's a poor
• 6:47
  quality palette, it's used once and then burned or landfill.
• 6:51
  If it's like the mainstream that that that major supermarkets and
• 6:55
  major suppliers would use like Coca Cola, you can get it.
• 6:58
  You can get it used different cycle a few times.
• 7:00
  It might last a couple of years. If you keep repairing it and you
• 7:03
  don't know where they are. You send them around and you
• 7:05
  reliant on email exchanges to find out where it is and go and
• 7:08
  collect it. So with ours, it's made out of
• 7:12
  plastic. It's got a metal frame inside.
• 7:14
  It's super strong, so it lasts forever.
• 7:16
  So plastic can be good as long as it's not single units.
• 7:19
  We can use ours for a good five to 10 years and it's got this
• 7:23
  tracking device in it. That means we never, ever lose
• 7:26
  it. It means we don't have to repair
• 7:28
  it a lot. So we're not, we're not bringing
• 7:30
  it back every every time to repair it and all that kind of
• 7:34
  stuff. So super sustainable.
• 7:37
  That's that design built in lasts a long time.
• 7:40
  The tracking technology is our own.
• 7:42
  So it means we can make it affordable.
• 7:44
  There's no third parties. We never lose the pallets.
• 7:47
  And I've run a wood, a big wooden pallet company and it can
• 7:51
  be tough. You have to count your pennies,
• 7:53
  count your pallets and make it work.
• 7:55
  That's why we're different. Super strong, trackable, leading
• 8:00
  edge technology that's our own and we can make all this stuff
• 8:03
  affordable to to big retail, big suppliers, which has never been
• 8:07
  done before. But they've got to cut over,
• 8:09
  they've got to work with us. They might need to make some
• 8:11
  adjustments and I need to. It's a palette.
• 8:14
  It's not Coca Cola's next big World Cup promotion.
• 8:17
  It's a palette. It's a talk to me please, but.
• 8:19
  As you said, it's the absolute kind of foundations of how we
• 8:23
  move our goods around through supermarkets.
• 8:27
  And I wondered, is it kind of a big topic of conversation that's
• 8:31
  been happening in various areas around, around goods being
• 8:34
  stolen as well? Is because you've got tracking,
• 8:37
  you can track the pallet, but does that mean if something goes
• 8:40
  where it's not supposed to go and the traceability, is that
• 8:42
  something that your pallet can also support and work with?
• 8:46
  It is indeed. We can attach the tracker to
• 8:48
  anything. In fact we've got a, we've got a
• 8:50
  shipping, a lot of shipping company down on the South Coast
• 8:53
  that that's using it for exactly that.
• 8:55
  We've attached that to shipping container which costs about
• 8:58
  £3000 each. And they were sending them away.
• 9:01
  They were losing them to competitors, they were losing
• 9:03
  the amount of various islands that they went to.
• 9:06
  People were holding on to them to use for all kinds of things
• 9:09
  and they didn't know, they couldn't see where they were.
• 9:11
  So they were losing them. Consequence costing a fortune.
• 9:13
  But even companies, we had a large clothing company who just
• 9:19
  was never sure that the materials that they were
• 9:22
  bringing in were legitimate from the right place.
• 9:24
  Or when they sent them out that they weren't being containers
• 9:27
  being opened and stolen, transferred out of ports into
• 9:30
  the wrong places and they couldn't locate them in ports
• 9:33
  and couldn't get communications moving with people.
• 9:35
  So knowing where your goods are all the time, where they'd come
• 9:38
  from, that they came from that particular farm or that
• 9:41
  particular area. Trackability and the visibility
• 9:45
  is really important to modern supply chains, particularly.
• 9:48
  It's a VUCA world as we say now and there are so many
• 9:52
  disruptions and certainties. Yeah, that, that ability to
• 9:56
  track continually and see where your goods are best than anybody
• 10:00
  in a, in a, in an office, in a port and tell you is really
• 10:04
  powerful. Interesting.
• 10:05
  And yeah, traceability, trackability, they're all
• 10:08
  bedrocks of working sustainably as a business as much as I do
• 10:12
  find a lot of the supply chain stuff really interesting and the
• 10:14
  world of supply chain hugely interesting because it isn't
• 10:17
  something that gets spoken about enough.
• 10:19
  But we are here to talk about how do we use communications to
• 10:22
  cut through a business problem. And you've got a really
• 10:25
  interesting product in an interesting sector that people
• 10:29
  are talking about, both from a sustainability, business
• 10:31
  continuity perspective. Yet it's something that's not
• 10:34
  sexy and exciting. And people don't necessarily
• 10:37
  wake up or think about how they're moving their products.
• 10:40
  Some might. So I suppose the problem you
• 10:42
  wanted was to get that cut through with potential customers
• 10:46
  and buyers and get them thinking how this can solve some of the
• 10:49
  problems they haven't even thought about.
• 10:51
  So what did you do to get that visibility and cut through?
• 10:56
  Without too much budget and without a big team, I worked
• 10:59
  really hard. I did the volume game.
• 11:01
  I first of all, I spoke to everybody I knew and everybody
• 11:04
  on my mobile phone and got a little bit of cut through there
• 11:07
  and people wanted to help, but it wasn't that easy.
• 11:10
  And I did all the cold emails and the cold calling and all of
• 11:16
  that stuff and got the occasional meeting here and
• 11:18
  there, but it was a long slog. And I did some exhibitions, but
• 11:22
  they're pretty expensive and you've got all the travel, all
• 11:24
  that kind of thing. And, and you start getting quite
• 11:27
  desperate because you need to create momentum.
• 11:29
  And sitting where I was trying to create some momentum was
• 11:32
  really hard. And I even got to the stage of
• 11:35
  sending out books and signed by authors, brilliant books on
• 11:40
  sustainability and business and it's AC Suite.
• 11:44
  And I was sending out gifts and pen knives and letters with my
• 11:48
  big story, delivering them by hand, all that stuff, developing
• 11:51
  my own messages and all that good stuff.
• 11:54
  But it just wasn't really quite getting the getting the cuts
• 11:58
  through and so we had to stop and think about where we go
• 12:01
  next. That's where we got to after
• 12:04
  having played the long, hard game that was delivering bits
• 12:08
  but just not enough for scale. And in a massively competitive
• 12:11
  market it is fairly contained with a few big suppliers.
• 12:16
  So trying to breakthrough what they just have always done is
• 12:19
  difficult. So we talked before around how
• 12:22
  you recognise who you need to speak to.
• 12:24
  Well, you had an idea of who you need to speak to and I think you
• 12:27
  were saying there isn't a pallet buyer in any company.
• 12:30
  There's no one person whose job title is responsible for
• 12:33
  pallets. So there's lots of different
• 12:35
  people you need to meet and help solve their problem.
• 12:38
  So what did you do differently to get the cut through that
• 12:42
  you're starting to see now, I mean?
• 12:43
  At that stage, we, we knew we had to spend some money working
• 12:48
  with a comms expert. We knew we had to try something
• 12:53
  different because what we've been trying so far, it wasn't
• 12:57
  creating the scale and the impact that that we needed.
• 13:00
  We worked on messaging. We identified who our personas
• 13:04
  were up and down the chain because it can be important,
• 13:07
  very important to get someone who's managing a warehouse on
• 13:11
  board and he might be a key decision maker in that business.
• 13:14
  But we are selling a lot of strategic opportunity and you
• 13:17
  really need the buy in from the C-Suite to be pushing that
• 13:21
  message down to make sure there's leadership there.
• 13:25
  And our whole business is coming with you really.
• 13:28
  So we worked on the personas, we worked on different messages for
• 13:31
  different personas and different messages for different
• 13:34
  departments. So if you're in procurement,
• 13:36
  you've got a different motivation and need from perhaps
• 13:40
  the quality team or the health and safety team or the
• 13:42
  commercial team or the operations team or indeed a
• 13:45
  sustainability team who might need different messages.
• 13:48
  And the next step was 1. To get support in sales.
• 13:52
  So we knew at Target market, but we wanted to be able to control
• 13:56
  the quality and the consistency of the messages.
• 13:59
  And so once we developed that, we felt confident in engaging an
• 14:03
  outsourced sales team. And that changed my working day
• 14:06
  completely. What warn the quantity and the
• 14:10
  quality of the meetings that were coming through just changed
• 14:13
  within a couple of weeks really. That was really important.
• 14:16
  The other thing was for all my life I've been reading The
• 14:19
  Grocer. It is the go to paper magazine
• 14:24
  and also online online media that gives you everything you
• 14:29
  want and everyone reads it. People are scrambling for it
• 14:33
  when it drops on the coffee, say it's that kind of thing.
• 14:36
  Although we knew that was going to be pricey compared to some of
• 14:40
  the stuff we might want to look at being in.
• 14:43
  We knew we had a really good story, but we need to make it
• 14:48
  good enough quality that it would be picked up on and the
• 14:51
  grocer would run with it. And that's where we went.
• 14:53
  And we even got help in terms of what should this look like and
• 14:57
  that the sense of feeling was that it should be an interview
• 15:00
  with me. So it was an interview with me
• 15:03
  would help shape the kind of key questions, but would let the
• 15:06
  gross to talk through what what they were interested in as well.
• 15:10
  So it resonated with their audience.
• 15:13
  We personalised it as well by getting a graphic, which was
• 15:15
  just as simple as me standing on a stack of 10/10 of our pallets
• 15:21
  that that we have a range that's nestable as well, which means
• 15:24
  you get 1000 in a return container, not 250.
• 15:28
  So you've just taken 3 out of four trucks off the road.
• 15:31
  Brilliant sustainability versus versus the general market wooden
• 15:36
  stack of pallets as well. A really personalised happy
• 15:39
  image with some key questions, questions that are really
• 15:44
  important to the industry about why you would strategically
• 15:47
  start to consider this for your business.
• 15:50
  Saving, saving money, improving resilience, improving working
• 15:54
  conditions for health and safety and a team that has to work with
• 15:57
  them every day. And I'm being good for the being
• 16:00
  good for the planet, the Earth, holy Earth.
• 16:03
  So that that gave, sorry, go ahead.
• 16:05
  And this is the fundamental that I'm really excited by with
• 16:08
  having this podcast and having people like you come and speak
• 16:11
  around. And there's real commercial
• 16:13
  challenges and issues that businesses have and
• 16:15
  understanding who you're selling to, how you're selling it to
• 16:19
  them, what problems you're trying to solve with those
• 16:21
  audiences and getting under the skin of them.
• 16:24
  And for comms, you know, on the one hand, that should just be
• 16:27
  the no brainer. You do your audience personas,
• 16:30
  you understand it, but you've got to have that lens of
• 16:32
  commerciality through it, which so I think it's a really
• 16:35
  interesting example of that. You needed to start with those
• 16:38
  audiences and that segmentation of those audiences really well.
• 16:42
  And then only then would you be able to start framing what's the
• 16:46
  tactical execution of it and what's the thing that you needed
• 16:49
  to do differently? And then and also then decide a
• 16:52
  title because. And I think when we spoke
• 16:54
  before, it was like, the title is one thing you build trust
• 16:57
  with the grocery. It's red, it's saying 1 magazine
• 16:59
  is 1 magazine. So what else did you do to get
• 17:02
  it much more in front of the people that you needed to start
• 17:06
  talking to? So we got it in the grocer and
• 17:09
  the our kind of key media, I suppose in getting in touch with
• 17:14
  the industry is LinkedIn. Like many, I've got all these
• 17:17
  you. In fact, I think when we had our
• 17:18
  last chat, we talked about, hey, you remember what?
• 17:21
  We were just signing up to LinkedIn.
• 17:24
  You're my first. LinkedIn connection car there.
• 17:27
  We go here. We go absolutely.
• 17:29
  I was talking all my connections and you were my first connection
• 17:32
  ever, so that's a pretty cool thing.
• 17:35
  That yeah. So that was it.
• 17:37
  We and I started like slowly robbing up for LinkedIn all
• 17:40
  those years ago. So now I've got a pretty good
• 17:42
  following and and they're going to be linked to what I do and
• 17:45
  the personas in the market, an audience I'm trying to achieve.
• 17:48
  So I've done similar with that for Palette Earth now on the
• 17:51
  Palace Earth LinkedIn profile as well.
• 17:54
  Shamelessly. After that, I took the copy that
• 17:56
  we've done online and on paper with the grocer and I put it out
• 18:02
  there. Just say, hey, This Is Us.
• 18:03
  Please read the article. This is why we're important.
• 18:07
  This is what you should read. Give me a call, let's have a
• 18:10
  conversation. And what what I found was of
• 18:13
  course, that the grocer gave us a really credible platform.
• 18:19
  Do you know, it gave us a credible platform that if, if
• 18:23
  the grocer is going to place this interview with Carl
• 18:26
  McInerney about this technology, this has got to be worthy of
• 18:31
  listening to. That's what I felt it gave us.
• 18:34
  And, and the amount of people that liked made comments,
• 18:38
  shared, gave me a call, sent me a WhatsApp message was
• 18:44
  outstanding. And the results of that, because
• 18:47
  we do use a kind of separate media company to monitor our
• 18:50
  LinkedIn, have that monthly meeting and check in.
• 18:53
  It just blew all the stats out of the pot.
• 18:58
  So the content and, and messaging that went out there at
• 19:01
  that point really paid off the return on investment in using a
• 19:05
  comms company to shape the messages, think about the
• 19:08
  personas and talk to us. Talk to us as there's normal
• 19:13
  people, not technical experts wanting to share technical data.
• 19:16
  I don't. I don't know if I mentioned, but
• 19:18
  we were doing white papers. Massively complicated.
• 19:21
  White putting these out on LinkedIn thinking this is
• 19:24
  important. People love this.
• 19:25
  No, not really, no. Nobody reads white papers.
• 19:30
  And, and it is, and it's about really understanding your
• 19:32
  audience's problem, what are you trying to solve for them, and
• 19:35
  making sure that it's relatable, understandable, and people get
• 19:38
  it. And for me, that's always been
• 19:40
  the bedrock of what communication is and can
• 19:43
  deliver. It's not about the new shiny.
• 19:45
  It's not always about the kind of getting loads and loads of
• 19:48
  coverage. It's about getting the the right
• 19:50
  targeted coverage and visibility that's going to hit the people
• 19:54
  where you need to influence it. And I think it's been, it's a
• 19:57
  really good example of you doing the hard yards of knowing your
• 20:00
  audience and then getting the right content that's going to
• 20:03
  help them make a different decision and getting in front of
• 20:06
  them. And have you seen any commercial
• 20:08
  change start on the back of of doing that work?
• 20:12
  Absolutely, almost at the same time as that happened.
• 20:16
  So that that happened actually before we started engaging fully
• 20:20
  with the outsourced sales agency.
• 20:22
  But at that point the amount of visitors we had then back to our
• 20:26
  full website beyond loads of people coming onto the LinkedIn
• 20:30
  joining us. The numbers for the Pallet Earth
• 20:33
  LinkedIn page went up significantly at that point and
• 20:36
  carried on doing so. And our engagement then in terms
• 20:40
  of opinion piece and people, people liking out, liking all
• 20:45
  the other posts that came beyond that has gone up since
• 20:48
  significantly. So that I think what at that
• 20:52
  point, what we did, because we'd spoke to comms people who would
• 20:56
  ask us the questions, interviewers in a way that
• 20:59
  everybody else might do, our audience might do out there.
• 21:03
  The, the value of what we do came through because people
• 21:07
  understood the value this time. Oh, it means that, OK, that's
• 21:11
  what the palate does and that's what it's going to do for our
• 21:14
  whole network and our business. OK.
• 21:16
  I see the value out there and there's so much of media out
• 21:19
  there now. We talk about it all the time.
• 21:21
  Don't don't mean there's the media that's out there.
• 21:23
  And then maybe the quality of it, if you can show value, then
• 21:28
  it's worthy of looking at and people will engage with without
• 21:31
  a doubt. And that's what working with a
• 21:34
  professional comms agency did for us.
• 21:37
  We got the right people and we, the messaging showed the value
• 21:42
  and what it meant to them that that was it for me.
• 21:45
  That was the turning point. And it's carried on since then.
• 21:47
  And I've had more meetings and I've actually, so the sales
• 21:51
  agency we use, they use a link back to our website that
• 21:56
  contains the interview I did with the grocer.
• 21:59
  Yeah. So the life of that.
• 22:01
  Yeah. So the return on investment is
• 22:03
  way beyond just the kind of initial investment in the comms
• 22:08
  team and the, and working with the grocer.
• 22:11
  It's spinning on that kind of thing.
• 22:13
  It lives on. And now the messages live on.
• 22:15
  And if ever I want to write something on LinkedIn, now I can
• 22:17
  go back to the source of the content we wrote together, the
• 22:20
  agency. So, yeah, it's it's changed.
• 22:24
  It's changed an awful lot. And it's creating that cut
• 22:26
  through. You're starting to move now.
• 22:28
  Yeah, it's really great to hear that through one article that
• 22:32
  you're able to get the return on investment you wanted, get the
• 22:35
  cut through with the people you needed to get the cut through.
• 22:37
  And then also that you really valued the kind of the the core
• 22:42
  of all communications is what knowing your audiences and
• 22:45
  knowing who you needed to target and why.
• 22:48
  One of my frustrations often with comms is that we go
• 22:50
  straight to tactics and we haven't done the real work at
• 22:54
  the beginning to kind of be clear on why you're doing what
• 22:56
  you're doing. We just go to kind of creating
• 22:59
  more noise and I find it always very interesting, which will be
• 23:01
  a consistency across, I'm sure this podcast is we complain
• 23:05
  about cutting through the noise, yet we are the noise as well as
• 23:09
  communications professionals. So I'm thought that would be a,
• 23:12
  a standard kind of refrain as we talk through as well.
• 23:15
  But Carl, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on cutting
• 23:20
  through. Really interesting area and it's
• 23:22
  been great to hear about, you know, where you've come from,
• 23:25
  from your career all those years ago over in Uxbridge and to
• 23:30
  where you are now. And it just seems like a really
• 23:32
  fascinating company because who would have thought pallets would
• 23:35
  be such an interesting business opportunity, but they really are
• 23:38
  that basis of how products move. Thank you very much.