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Iboga: Facing Trauma at the Root | Lewis Mbwela · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm
0:15
Speaker 1: your host Adam Shand.
0:17
Speaker 2: This is a special episode coming to you from Hiraris, Zimbabwe.
0:21
Speaker 2: It deals with the topic we've touched on many times.
0:24
Speaker 2: People affected by crime often deal with post traumatic stress injuries,
0:28
Speaker 2: traumatic brain injuries, substance abuse, anxiety and depression. Experts warn
0:34
Speaker 2: the hidden injuries of crime and conflict can last a lifetime,
0:38
Speaker 2: with PTSD and brain trauma affecting thousands long after events end.
0:44
Speaker 2: This includes law enforcement, victims of crime, and even the
0:47
Speaker 2: perpetrators in some cases, even if we don't feel much.
0:50
Speaker 1: Sympathy for them.
0:52
Speaker 2: Sufferers live with their injuries for decades, medicated themselves with
0:55
Speaker 2: pharmaceuticals both legal and illegal, and psychotherapy. Many are told
1:01
Speaker 2: this will be their future and the lasting legacy of
1:04
Speaker 2: their experiences a diminished quality of life. Many trauma sufferers
1:09
Speaker 2: report decades of medication use with limited long term relief.
1:14
Speaker 1: For some, trauma becomes a life sentence. But what if
1:18
Speaker 1: there was another way to deal with this?
1:20
Speaker 2: You may have seen a Netflix documentary called Waves and War,
1:24
Speaker 2: which came out in November twenty twenty five, about a
1:27
Speaker 2: group of US Navy seals who underwent treatment with a
1:30
Speaker 2: psychedelic drug called Ibergain to deal with their invisible injuries.
1:35
Speaker 2: He was doing all the things he was told to
1:37
Speaker 2: do and he was actually getting worse. Psychooic medicines proved
1:41
Speaker 2: to be effective, but both are illegal in the United States.
1:46
Speaker 2: I began is just one of thirteen alkaloids found in Iboga,
1:49
Speaker 2: and I was recently invited to a tender treatment retreat
1:52
Speaker 2: here in Zimbabwe with three Australian Special Forces soldiers. The
1:57
Speaker 2: difference here was the treatment was carried out with all
2:00
Speaker 2: thirteen alkaloids of the Aboga bark.
2:03
Speaker 1: This was not the fruit. This was the route practitioners worn.
2:07
Speaker 2: The Ibergain treatment is intense, confronting and not suitable for everyone.
2:13
Speaker 2: I was supposed to be there as a fly on
2:14
Speaker 2: the wall, but I ended up taking Iberger and I
2:17
Speaker 2: want to share with you the remarkable impact it had
2:20
Speaker 2: on me, but also it's potential to assist in the
2:24
Speaker 2: healing of deep seated trauma. My guest today is Lewis
2:27
Speaker 2: and Bweller, who is an I Burger practitioner based in Zimbabwe,
2:31
Speaker 2: who was my guide into this remarkable medicine.
2:34
Speaker 1: Welcome to real crime Lewis. Thank you, Adam, thank you
2:38
Speaker 1: for having me.
2:39
Speaker 2: When you walked into a little cabin up in the
2:42
Speaker 2: mountains at younger, I said to you, here was a
2:45
Speaker 2: flyer on the wall, and you said, there were no
2:47
Speaker 2: flies on the wall with this medicine. Why did you
2:51
Speaker 2: say that?
2:52
Speaker 3: Well, what I meant was the medicine immerses you into
2:55
Speaker 3: the whole process, you know.
2:57
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not just the medicine. You know.
2:59
Speaker 3: What I delivered as well at night was what we
3:03
Speaker 3: call the fire talk, which is lather fifty percent off
3:06
Speaker 3: the healing. These are the teachings. Nothing you haven't heard before.
3:11
Speaker 3: But I think what I meant was it becomes a
3:15
Speaker 3: spiritual space. You know, we believe that we are spiritual
3:18
Speaker 3: before we are physical, and it affects everybody. So definitely,
3:23
Speaker 3: you couldn't just be a fly on the wall.
3:26
Speaker 2: And I was quickly aware of that because we had
3:27
Speaker 2: our three ex special Force of soldiers. I'm not going
3:29
Speaker 2: to use their names, by the way, in this because
3:31
Speaker 2: I think it's for their privacy and I think it
3:33
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter what their names are. So our three guys,
3:37
Speaker 2: they had the medicine, and I could see vicariously what
3:42
Speaker 2: was going on, and I could feel something of what
3:44
Speaker 2: was happening in their lives at that moment, and I
3:48
Speaker 2: quickly realized that this was like going to the beach
3:52
Speaker 2: and not having a swim. So I decided to have
3:54
Speaker 2: the medicine not the next night, but the following night.
3:58
Speaker 2: We'll talk about the effects of that, but let's quickly
4:00
Speaker 2: deal with the difference between iber Gain and Iboga as
4:03
Speaker 2: we had it.
4:04
Speaker 1: What is the difference.
4:06
Speaker 3: Iboga comes from Gabon. These are from pretty much the
4:11
Speaker 3: forests of northern Congo into Gabon and south of Cameroon.
4:15
Speaker 3: The medicine grows deeply along the equator in Africa, and
4:19
Speaker 3: as we've learned and as it's been passed on from
4:22
Speaker 3: generation to generation, the custodians of this medicine are the
4:26
Speaker 3: wheaty we also know as the pigmies. And this medicine
4:31
Speaker 3: has been used since millennia for healing, for ceremony, and
4:36
Speaker 3: when the medicine was created, when the tree of Iboga's created,
4:40
Speaker 3: addiction wasn't there. So they only use it purely for
4:44
Speaker 3: self mastery, to know about life, about nature, and to
4:48
Speaker 3: connect with themselves deeply, which we rarely do in our
4:51
Speaker 3: current lives. So Iboga itself comes from a very short
4:56
Speaker 3: bushy tree. The medicine of iboga comes from the bark.
5:01
Speaker 3: The root bark now iber gain is an extraction off
5:06
Speaker 3: this buk. Buk itself carries thirteen alkaloids, as you mentioned earlier,
5:11
Speaker 3: and one of the strong ones is i begin, which
5:14
Speaker 3: has a very strong effect on receptors that effect anything
5:19
Speaker 3: you're addicted to. That's the difference. Clinically, it's been used
5:23
Speaker 3: specifically for addictions in the West and many other parts
5:26
Speaker 3: of the world, but we have traditionally just kept it
5:30
Speaker 3: as authentic as we can.
5:32
Speaker 1: We work with the Baccali right, and that's the difference.
5:35
Speaker 2: And for those who don't know about it, and you
5:36
Speaker 2: can look at the documentary on Netflix and you get
5:38
Speaker 2: more insight on what's going on there.
5:40
Speaker 1: But it's in a clinical setting.
5:41
Speaker 2: It's still a controlled drug in the US, so it's
5:43
Speaker 2: done in Mexico and people are going into clinics they're
5:46
Speaker 2: having the treatment plus magnesium to counteract any issues with
5:50
Speaker 2: the heart. But what you're talking about is a return
5:53
Speaker 2: to the traditional approach to it that happens in Gabond
5:56
Speaker 2: with the Buitty people, and you talk about the other
6:01
Speaker 2: alkaloids in iboga being the spiritual ones I began is
6:07
Speaker 2: one element, but what's going on with those spiritual alcohoids.
6:11
Speaker 3: So with all the alkaloids, they affect both the physical
6:15
Speaker 3: and the spiritual. What you have done is you've removed
6:18
Speaker 3: one and other twelve are missing. So sometimes you don't
6:23
Speaker 3: get a full authentic experience. There's some things that are missing.
6:28
Speaker 3: You don't want to get a full spiritual healing. And
6:31
Speaker 3: some of the aspects we're dealing with are more spiritual
6:34
Speaker 3: than physical. So when we work with the raw bark,
6:38
Speaker 3: we allow the medicine to go where it's supposed to go,
6:41
Speaker 3: to work on the physical aspects and to work on
6:43
Speaker 3: the spiritual aspects that have affected us over our lives.
6:47
Speaker 3: And the results of that are they're more and I
6:52
Speaker 3: think everyone deserves to get a full experience off the medicine.
6:56
Speaker 3: I am not ruling out how much you know, I
6:58
Speaker 3: begain clinically has done well for people. It's done extremely well,
7:04
Speaker 3: and I think it's bonus. And I think you know,
7:06
Speaker 3: some of these treatments work differently for for different people.
7:10
Speaker 3: It's brilliant what you know scientists have managed to do
7:13
Speaker 3: with it. We've just decided we've just kept it as
7:17
Speaker 3: traditional and we served the medicine out of respect as
7:20
Speaker 3: well for the medicine itself and for the custodians of
7:24
Speaker 3: this medicine.
7:25
Speaker 2: And IB again has now undergone some clinical studies Stanford University.
7:31
Speaker 2: I think is something else happening in Texas at the moment,
7:33
Speaker 2: and they are getting remarkable results with traumatic brain injuries
7:38
Speaker 2: with PTSD, with substance abuse, and it is slowly coming
7:42
Speaker 2: on the radar. So folks, if you're listening, this is
7:45
Speaker 2: not a psychedelic drug you take can go to the
7:47
Speaker 2: disco and dance all night.
7:49
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's not that at all. This is medicine.
7:52
Speaker 2: And I guess I could take you through what I
7:54
Speaker 2: saw and what I experienced. I saw the guys going
7:58
Speaker 2: into themselves, having intense internal dialogue with themselves, seeing some visions,
8:07
Speaker 2: seeing some and they did it over two weeks. I
8:09
Speaker 2: did for one night, so my experience is quite limited.
8:11
Speaker 2: But what I saw. First off, I had pins and
8:14
Speaker 2: needles down my arms and legs. I began to feel
8:18
Speaker 2: a little bit nauseous. I thought, if I can keep
8:20
Speaker 2: this down a long enough, it'll be good. And I
8:22
Speaker 2: didn't really see any visual hallucinations or anything. But what
8:25
Speaker 2: I did see when I closed my eyes was green places,
8:30
Speaker 2: ponds with lily pads and beautiful soft surroundings. But then
8:35
Speaker 2: they would sort of stand up vertically become wallpaper, and
8:38
Speaker 2: I was moving through these layers of wallpaper. Then my
8:43
Speaker 2: legs went very wobbly. I could hardly stand up. I
8:46
Speaker 2: felt like my souls had become round, and I thought
8:49
Speaker 2: I better lie down here, and so I did lie down,
8:52
Speaker 2: and at a certain point I started to see words,
8:56
Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of words. I was coming so fast
8:59
Speaker 2: I couldn't read them in different fonts and typefaces. And
9:02
Speaker 2: I thought, let's let this happen, but fearful.
9:05
Speaker 1: In the beginning, you know.
9:07
Speaker 2: And then I suddenly realized that these were my own words.
9:10
Speaker 1: I've been a.
9:11
Speaker 2: Journalists for forty years, and I suddenly realized, Wow, there's
9:15
Speaker 2: I'm looking into my own psyche. And then I started
9:19
Speaker 2: to see like reptile eyes.
9:23
Speaker 1: That was a bit scary. Out of this thing.
9:25
Speaker 2: I suddenly a reptile eye would come and what I also,
9:29
Speaker 2: anyone familiar with tacolashes in African culture, I thought, what
9:32
Speaker 2: I said, I'm seeing what I thought were tacoloshes, you know,
9:35
Speaker 2: little stout strong a bit with this kind of crazy
9:39
Speaker 2: leering smiles and things like that.
9:41
Speaker 1: That was a bit out of control in my opinion.
9:44
Speaker 2: But then as it evolved, I started seeing images of
9:48
Speaker 2: a lady I've just started seeing, and it was like
9:50
Speaker 2: a photo stream, like a thousand pictures of flash face, face, flace, face,
9:54
Speaker 2: flas face, every single expression, every mood until the final one,
10:00
Speaker 2: which sort of stopped there was with her with this
10:02
Speaker 2: lovely contented smile on her face, and I'm focusing on
10:07
Speaker 2: that one.
10:09
Speaker 1: But it was a.
10:10
Speaker 2: Tremendous and you know, just to finish off. And then
10:12
Speaker 2: I had a certain point, I said, I've just got
10:14
Speaker 2: to go to sleep.
10:14
Speaker 1: You know.
10:15
Speaker 2: Well I didn't sleep, actually, but I separate myself from
10:17
Speaker 2: everybody else and just kind of go with it. And
10:19
Speaker 2: I felt terrible. The next day, I felt absolutely terrible.
10:21
Speaker 2: I purged numerous times. I both ends. This is someone
10:25
Speaker 2: called it a soul ass kicking. I just as a
10:27
Speaker 2: body ass kicker as well. And I got back to
10:30
Speaker 2: town the following day and I was feeling better. But
10:33
Speaker 2: the next day I felt absolutely fantastic, and I could
10:37
Speaker 2: see some of the attachments that I'd had previously were looser.
10:42
Speaker 2: But the most remarkable thing to me, I had a
10:44
Speaker 2: knee injury. I'm going on here, listeners, you'll have to
10:46
Speaker 2: be with me, but I think this is useful. I
10:48
Speaker 2: had a knee injury that I've been carrying for several months,
10:51
Speaker 2: but also an upper respiratory kind of inflammation which came
10:54
Speaker 2: up on scans, even because.
10:55
Speaker 1: I had bronchittess and things.
10:57
Speaker 2: Anyway, and the following days after that, my inflammation in
11:00
Speaker 2: my body seemed to go and my knee is actually fixed. Remarkable.
11:06
Speaker 2: I don't think it's magic. I think it's actually a
11:07
Speaker 2: lessening of inflammation. And also my upper respiratory issues are
11:10
Speaker 2: also fixed. So I had a prety positive experience from
11:13
Speaker 2: one from one, so my eyes and ears are definitely
11:17
Speaker 2: open to its potential as a medicine. And I also
11:21
Speaker 2: saw the way that you approached it as Yes, the
11:26
Speaker 2: traditional atmosphere around it. You had music and you had
11:29
Speaker 2: your garb, and it was very much in an African tradition,
11:33
Speaker 2: but there were clinical safeguards with it. Yes, you take
11:37
Speaker 2: this seriously. This is not just a voodoo juju moment.
11:40
Speaker 2: This is something steeped in your own experience. How the
11:44
Speaker 2: hell did you get involved in this?
11:47
Speaker 3: That's a beautiful question, but I just want to add
11:50
Speaker 3: on to what you said earlier. It Bill has not
11:53
Speaker 3: a recreational experience. You cannot be addicted to it simply
11:59
Speaker 3: because of its nature. It's a very intimate and a
12:04
Speaker 3: very serious medicine. And I think you know what I
12:11
Speaker 3: wilways try to do is to educate people about the medicine.
12:14
Speaker 3: I have these sit downs with all the clients, with
12:18
Speaker 3: everyone who's keen to go into this process, to prepare them,
12:23
Speaker 3: but also to educate because once you're in that process,
12:27
Speaker 3: you realize that it's not recreational, it's very intimate, it's
12:31
Speaker 3: very serious. Iboga's one intention is truth. It goes to
12:36
Speaker 3: the truth. So the pins and needles that you're experiencing,
12:39
Speaker 3: that's the medicine, scanning, scanning every fiber, every cell in
12:44
Speaker 3: your body. It will intelligently know when you suffered pain
12:48
Speaker 3: when you're five years old, what's happening with your liver,
12:51
Speaker 3: what's happening with inflammation in different parts of your body.
12:55
Speaker 3: And it starts to do the work slowly. Then it
12:59
Speaker 3: goes to your mind and it flips through all the files.
13:03
Speaker 3: It does what is called a life view, not from
13:06
Speaker 3: the day you're born, but from the day you're concede
13:09
Speaker 3: because there's so much that happens to us while we're
13:12
Speaker 3: in our mother's roombs that affects us. So I just
13:17
Speaker 3: wanted to touch on that, on how the medicine is
13:19
Speaker 3: actually working. And yeah, my journey with with with with
13:25
Speaker 3: the medicine of fiboga I come from, you know, seventeen
13:29
Speaker 3: years of addiction to alcohol. I did experiment with other substances,
13:33
Speaker 3: but alcohol became my go to. There was a lot
13:37
Speaker 3: of pain in that journey and at some point I
13:41
Speaker 3: threw in the towel and you know, rescue came and
13:45
Speaker 3: I started a recovery journey. And just through that time,
13:49
Speaker 3: I started to explore, you know, my spiritual side. I
13:53
Speaker 3: started to dream. I started to be curious about, you know,
13:57
Speaker 3: what's going on with the spirit what's my truth about
14:00
Speaker 3: the spirit world. And after visiting two very hippie friends
14:05
Speaker 3: of mine who are on some plant medicine journey, you know,
14:08
Speaker 3: at the time, I thought they were crazy, you know,
14:10
Speaker 3: and they just suggested, you know, Louis, you're doing a
14:12
Speaker 3: lot of work in the recovery space. You're working with people.
14:15
Speaker 3: You know, there's a medicine that we have discovered that
14:18
Speaker 3: we are on that we feel might benefit you. And
14:22
Speaker 3: that kind of threw me into an Iboga retreat, you know,
14:25
Speaker 3: the very following week.
14:27
Speaker 1: My first experience with.
14:29
Speaker 3: Iboga was you know, and I will say this countless times,
14:34
Speaker 3: was overwhelmingly magical. It was overwhelmingly magical because the medicine
14:41
Speaker 3: was able to not only physically go to places in me,
14:44
Speaker 3: but I'd say visually, I had.
14:48
Speaker 1: A very beautiful journey where.
14:51
Speaker 3: I was shown who I truly am, because that has
14:54
Speaker 3: always been my question, who am i? You know, what
14:57
Speaker 3: am I doing on this beautiful green earth? And where
15:00
Speaker 3: am I going? And I think this is one of
15:02
Speaker 3: the biggest questions that everyone, a lot of people asked
15:05
Speaker 3: struggling with. You know, people are making lots of money,
15:08
Speaker 3: you know, they're so successful, but they're still not happy.
15:11
Speaker 3: They're not connected with the plan, with the purpose. So
15:17
Speaker 3: coming out of that experience, for me, you know, it
15:20
Speaker 3: left me bewildered, confused, like what is this medicine? Where
15:25
Speaker 3: is it from? So my curiosity really pushed me. I
15:30
Speaker 3: did months and months of research. I wanted to know
15:34
Speaker 3: the source. I wanted to know, you know, the carriers
15:37
Speaker 3: of this medicine. Who are they and what kind of
15:40
Speaker 3: people are they? So connected me to Gabon and I
15:44
Speaker 3: found these charmans and specifically attend Generation Charman, you know,
15:49
Speaker 3: and I found his number, connected with them. He became
15:53
Speaker 3: like a brother and I finally asked him, you know,
15:55
Speaker 3: I'd love to come to Gabon and I'd love you
15:57
Speaker 3: to train me how to work with this medicine. But
16:00
Speaker 3: at the back of my head, I wanted to go
16:02
Speaker 3: and confirm could this be that thing I was born
16:06
Speaker 3: to do? So with no French, because you know West
16:11
Speaker 3: Africa's Francophone.
16:13
Speaker 1: I was on a.
16:14
Speaker 3: Plane to Gabon and I went there and I spent
16:17
Speaker 3: a couple of months, which was the most intense process
16:21
Speaker 3: I've ever embarked on. It was tough, it was intense,
16:25
Speaker 3: but it was such a gift because I connected with
16:29
Speaker 3: the medicine of Iboga. I connected with the wheaty and
16:33
Speaker 3: realized it's more than just a plant. When they look
16:36
Speaker 3: at the jungle, they say, that's our pharmacy. We get
16:39
Speaker 3: our food from there, we get our medicine from me.
16:42
Speaker 3: And I also learned that iboga is not just for healing.
16:46
Speaker 3: You know, the healing is something we need to get
16:48
Speaker 3: out of the way real quick. You know, life is
16:50
Speaker 3: not a healing journey. We have to live. We're here
16:53
Speaker 3: to live life. That opened my mind to a lot,
16:57
Speaker 3: and as I was on this course, I kept on,
17:02
Speaker 3: you know, thinking there's so many like mere there, friends, family,
17:06
Speaker 3: or just people I know who were addicted to something.
17:10
Speaker 3: And those definitely were not addicted to anything. But we're
17:13
Speaker 3: just lost and we're trying to find themselves. But here's
17:18
Speaker 3: one medicine that allows you to go within, to really look,
17:23
Speaker 3: because what we're actually looking for is right here, It's.
17:27
Speaker 1: Right within us. That's true. I think it's absolutely true.
17:31
Speaker 2: And I think people have related to say marijuana as
17:35
Speaker 2: another sacred plant medicine that can give them peace of mind,
17:40
Speaker 2: in sight some of the things you're talking about. But
17:43
Speaker 2: in my own case, I've been a weed smoker for years,
17:46
Speaker 2: and I think it was a habit growing up, and
17:48
Speaker 2: I decided that it was better than alcohol because I've
17:50
Speaker 2: seen what had happened in my family various parts with alcohol.
17:53
Speaker 1: I thought that was the thing, But over time it.
17:56
Speaker 2: Became a crutch and then particularly during times of stress.
18:00
Speaker 2: In recent years, it actually flipped to something else completely.
18:04
Speaker 2: And we talked about different states of these plant medicines,
18:07
Speaker 2: and a lot of people listening will be using marijuana
18:10
Speaker 2: right now. And something you said to me is that
18:12
Speaker 2: when you put fire to marijuana, it changes its status.
18:17
Speaker 3: What happens, so, fire is an element, it's got its
18:21
Speaker 3: own life. If we were to put a live flame
18:25
Speaker 3: on your skin, you're going to feel it.
18:28
Speaker 1: It's going to burn.
18:29
Speaker 3: And the medicine of marijuana, it's medicine, it's an herb.
18:34
Speaker 3: Now applying another element of fire on it, it does
18:38
Speaker 3: shift the nature of the medicine. If we were to
18:42
Speaker 3: put a burning flame onto volga and consume it, the
18:46
Speaker 3: nature of the plant of the medicine doesn't remain the same.
18:49
Speaker 3: It goes into for the purpose of the conversation, into
18:53
Speaker 3: his alter ego and it becomes another nature, which.
18:58
Speaker 2: In the case of marijuana, is a possible mood swings
19:02
Speaker 2: even anger.
19:03
Speaker 1: Even anger.
19:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's a lot of attachments and detachment as well,
19:08
Speaker 3: and detachment as well, you know, you know, it's so
19:11
Speaker 3: interesting you say this because I've sat down with a
19:14
Speaker 3: lot of elders, who are you know, spiritual healers, sharmans,
19:18
Speaker 3: and they speak about understanding the nature, understanding the medicine,
19:23
Speaker 3: the plant, Okay, And they're different uses. Now, if you're
19:29
Speaker 3: going to take it recreationally, there's an effect. But if
19:33
Speaker 3: you're taking it purely for healing, for consciousness, you're not
19:38
Speaker 3: going to spend the whole day smoking joint after joint
19:41
Speaker 3: after joint after joint. You know, maybe all you actually
19:44
Speaker 3: need are you know, two or three puffs? Because there
19:48
Speaker 3: is a spiritual element to all nature, to all plants,
19:52
Speaker 3: and you know, are you going excessive?
19:55
Speaker 1: You know? What's the intention? We all speak about intention
19:57
Speaker 1: when we when.
19:58
Speaker 3: We sit with the boga, as with many medicines, because
20:03
Speaker 3: all medicines have physical healing elements, some have spiritual healing elements,
20:09
Speaker 3: and some are just purely for spiritual discovery.
20:13
Speaker 1: You have to know.
20:15
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, you know, we're in a world where we don't
20:18
Speaker 3: ask questions, We don't seek these these questions about what
20:24
Speaker 3: is the nature of the mushroom, what is the nature
20:28
Speaker 3: of ayahuaska, what is the nature of iboga? And am
20:32
Speaker 3: I taking it through physical healing only? What do I need?
20:37
Speaker 3: We go into all these processes and there's a massive
20:40
Speaker 3: plant medicine tourism going on out there where we are
20:44
Speaker 3: taking multiple medicines. These are all beautiful medicines, but what's
20:49
Speaker 3: the intention? Are you not crossing, you know, addicting yourself
20:53
Speaker 3: to to the medicines because I want to be super clean,
20:58
Speaker 3: super conscious, But the medicines are also carrying their own intentions.
21:04
Speaker 3: And then but what is the one nature for you?
21:08
Speaker 3: What is the intention for you? What are you seeking?
21:11
Speaker 1: Right?
21:11
Speaker 2: And what we've seen with marijuana, without digressing too much,
21:14
Speaker 2: I think is an important point.
21:15
Speaker 1: What we've seen in marijuana and Australia.
21:17
Speaker 2: It's become a highly commercial illegal drug which under hydroponic
21:22
Speaker 2: conditions have grown very quickly, many crops per year, and
21:26
Speaker 2: it's becoming the cash flow for other illegal activities, particularly
21:32
Speaker 2: myth and things like that. So and people talk about
21:36
Speaker 2: the strength of that marijuana now is much much higher
21:39
Speaker 2: than it was in the past or what you would
21:41
Speaker 2: find naturally occurring. So it's causing a lot of issues
21:44
Speaker 2: for people, the chemicals used around it, plus some of
21:47
Speaker 2: the issues that you talk about. So people are finding
21:49
Speaker 2: they call it a green smack is one of the
21:52
Speaker 2: terms for it in Australia these days. So I think
21:55
Speaker 2: it's been derailed and I think it's a problem for
21:57
Speaker 2: people and those listening out that wh've got a problem
22:00
Speaker 2: with pots do something about it. Because the returns are diminishing,
22:04
Speaker 2: there's no doubt, and I think to refocus around the
22:06
Speaker 2: intention of it.
22:08
Speaker 1: So you've dealt with all.
22:10
Speaker 2: These sorts of issues, I'm sure hanging a little bit here,
22:12
Speaker 2: and you've set up your practice in Zimbabwe. Correct what
22:16
Speaker 2: kinds of people are you treating now with eboga?
22:20
Speaker 3: Everyone is suffering from an illness of the mind, trauma, PTSD,
22:28
Speaker 3: substance abuse, depression, and some are just seeking to self master.
22:36
Speaker 3: It's different cases, but at the top of it, it's
22:40
Speaker 3: an illness of the mind. The human kind in today's
22:44
Speaker 3: world is suffering from the illness of the mind. Some
22:48
Speaker 3: of us who get on, you know, antidepressants, some will
22:52
Speaker 3: you find whatever substance, but it is to try and
22:56
Speaker 3: quieten the noise, and it's not working. And what we
22:59
Speaker 3: do we try and put more and more, take more medications,
23:05
Speaker 3: seek the strongest drug, the strongest train of anything in
23:10
Speaker 3: the Wheaty teaching is they try to simplify a lot
23:12
Speaker 3: of these things. And we speak about nature and that
23:17
Speaker 3: nature has two conditions. Don't abuse it, don't attach you know.
23:21
Speaker 3: That's why we try not to manipulate plants. We try
23:24
Speaker 3: not to attach ourselves to them, and it becomes easier
23:31
Speaker 3: for us. But we always find the you know, we
23:33
Speaker 3: always want the hard way, you know. But predominantly I
23:37
Speaker 3: would say it's people that have just gone through, you know,
23:40
Speaker 3: a tough experience of life. We're not taking breaks to
23:43
Speaker 3: process and just you know, cut off what's not working,
23:47
Speaker 3: what's not serving you well. And this is the work
23:51
Speaker 3: that we're doing here in Zibabwe. And we've opened up
23:55
Speaker 3: the space too pretty much locals, internationals, young and old.
24:00
Speaker 3: It's a medicine that requires a very strict protocol. Some
24:04
Speaker 3: people are not they don't qualify as good candidates, so
24:08
Speaker 3: we do stay away from certain cases. And yeah, it's
24:13
Speaker 3: a very strict screening process because in that space there's
24:18
Speaker 3: so much going on to the body, to the mind,
24:22
Speaker 3: to the heart. So I do take very very strong
24:25
Speaker 3: precautions with every individual, including.
24:29
Speaker 2: ECGs with the heart, because I know in Mexico with ebagaine,
24:33
Speaker 2: they are getting it with magnesium to address any possible
24:37
Speaker 2: and I think people should always consult physicians and do
24:39
Speaker 2: their due diligence and all that sort of stuff. In
24:41
Speaker 2: the case of the guys that you work with on
24:43
Speaker 2: this trip, they were guys.
24:46
Speaker 4: Who had been in Iraq and Afghanistan, had been in
24:49
Speaker 4: very vivid, dramatic traumatic situations, and they were using ketamine, yes,
24:54
Speaker 4: which is freely available almost about the world.
24:57
Speaker 1: I was amazed to hear how available it is actually now.
24:59
Speaker 2: Were using that as a way of going into what
25:01
Speaker 2: they called airplane mode God and their patrols in the
25:04
Speaker 2: streets of Dad or Kabul or whatever, and then come
25:07
Speaker 2: home and take the ketamine and just cease to be
25:10
Speaker 2: who they were for that period of time, then wake
25:12
Speaker 2: up in the morning do it all again. How long
25:15
Speaker 2: can you do that sort of thing without, I guess,
25:19
Speaker 2: detaching from your reality in a way, And how do
25:21
Speaker 2: you deal with that beyond those experiences? And a lot
25:25
Speaker 2: of police officers I know have done exactly the same
25:28
Speaker 2: thing with alcohol or prescription drugs or whatever it is.
25:32
Speaker 2: So what I saw there was that one of our
25:34
Speaker 2: guys had done it before, and he'd seized his kedamene
25:37
Speaker 2: use instantly. He still had more issused to deal with
25:41
Speaker 2: another chap. Former Army medic was deep into the antidepressant regime,
25:45
Speaker 2: had ceased those anty depressants weeks before, was extremely dizzy
25:50
Speaker 2: and was ruminating about everything in his past and I
25:54
Speaker 2: couldn't believe how many people he'd saved and all the
25:56
Speaker 2: positive things that he'd done in his career. He also
25:59
Speaker 2: worked with the ambulance service as well in New South Wales,
26:02
Speaker 2: which is and I thought, this guy's a glutton for punishment,
26:04
Speaker 2: but he could not say all the good things in
26:09
Speaker 2: his service in his life. And I think talking to
26:13
Speaker 2: him now, I think he's been able to get some
26:15
Speaker 2: distance and some insight having gone through the treatment.
26:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll definitely say all the three gentlemen that were
26:23
Speaker 3: in our retreat recently did extremely well. I think all
26:29
Speaker 3: three of them went through one of the toughest, you know.
26:33
Speaker 1: Life experiences I've ever heard.
26:36
Speaker 3: And I think in our journey, we you know, we
26:40
Speaker 3: decided we were gonna scrape off layer by layer.
26:44
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't all have to happen at once.
26:47
Speaker 3: It's a huge chunk of trauma that they were sitting on,
26:51
Speaker 3: but bravely so, you know, they showed up with such
26:54
Speaker 3: authenticity and willingness. That's what the medicine looks at, you know,
26:59
Speaker 3: is their willingness to let go, let go of the pain,
27:03
Speaker 3: let go of not loving yourself, you know, hating yourself.
27:09
Speaker 3: And I think it allows medicine to go, you know,
27:12
Speaker 3: into the mind and start to delete certain files that
27:17
Speaker 3: we've been so attached to because those life experiences, we
27:22
Speaker 3: tend to make them our not only our reality, but
27:26
Speaker 3: our identity. But that's not who you are. You're a
27:30
Speaker 3: paramedic in the military. You are there to serve and
27:32
Speaker 3: you're saving so many people's lives. But you know, whatever
27:36
Speaker 3: you take on, that's not you, that's the residue.
27:40
Speaker 1: From the work.
27:41
Speaker 3: But when you allow those attachments to affect your daily
27:44
Speaker 3: life and you know you cannot sleep at night, you
27:48
Speaker 3: keep staying locked into what happened, you know how it happened,
27:53
Speaker 3: and you know why it happened. Maybe in some cases
27:57
Speaker 3: you're blaming yourself that story. When it goes into a loop,
28:01
Speaker 3: it becomes you know, mainly sleepless nights. It's not eating well,
28:07
Speaker 3: not looking after yourself, and you know you're probably on
28:11
Speaker 3: so many vendors, you know, on and off you're slowly
28:15
Speaker 3: killing yourself, you know. So when we sit with the Boga,
28:19
Speaker 3: we take a pause, a very deep pause, and like
28:23
Speaker 3: you're saying earlier, you know, you're seeing very different you know, visuals, pictures.
28:29
Speaker 3: That's the medicine, going through your files and also seeing
28:32
Speaker 3: what files are not supposed to be here and slowly
28:36
Speaker 3: deleting some of them and showing you what to focus
28:39
Speaker 3: on the things that really matter. It sounds magical, you know,
28:43
Speaker 3: when you're speaking to someone who has not done this before.
28:46
Speaker 3: But it's as real. And I think one of the
28:48
Speaker 3: things that it's taught me is plants are real.
28:52
Speaker 2: Of course they are, you know. And my dad was
28:55
Speaker 2: a psychiatrist. I'm always reminding the listeners of that. I
28:57
Speaker 2: feel like this is therapy in some ways, this podcast.
29:00
Speaker 2: But he worked in John Hopkins University in Baltimore in
29:03
Speaker 2: the late fifties. It's psilocybin mushrooms as a way of
29:08
Speaker 2: addressing depression, and there was great hope and expectation about psilocybin,
29:12
Speaker 2: and of course the War on Drugs happened and this
29:15
Speaker 2: was now regarded as something illegal and dangerous and so forth,
29:19
Speaker 2: and I think he felt a certain shame that he
29:21
Speaker 2: hadn't been involved, and it hardly talked about it ever again.
29:24
Speaker 2: But here we are now in twenty twenty six and
29:26
Speaker 2: psilocybin is back on the therapeutic list. People in our
29:29
Speaker 2: experimenting and so I think we people's eyes are being
29:32
Speaker 2: open to this and it's far beyond a recreational thing.
29:35
Speaker 2: We are seeing transformations. And you've called it magic. I
29:39
Speaker 2: don't want to call it magic because it sort of
29:41
Speaker 2: diminishes it into something that's I think people have preconceptions
29:44
Speaker 2: about Africa generally and level of civilization and blah blah
29:48
Speaker 2: like that.
29:48
Speaker 1: So I want to put it in the.
29:50
Speaker 2: Space so it is medicine, and it does also what
29:54
Speaker 2: good cognitive therapy will do as well, where people can
29:57
Speaker 2: get a safe space where they can account their inventory
30:01
Speaker 2: of experiences in emotions and find a way forward.
30:05
Speaker 1: I'm skeptical only.
30:08
Speaker 2: To this extent about it that can it transform someone
30:12
Speaker 2: overnight or can it help them accept their issues and
30:17
Speaker 2: have some insight to do the work which will ultimately
30:21
Speaker 2: address their problems.
30:22
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Am I being too cautious? I
30:26
Speaker 1: think you're being real.
30:27
Speaker 3: A lot of us want a quick fix out there,
30:31
Speaker 3: and iboga is not a quick fix. It opens you
30:35
Speaker 3: up to the reality. It opens you up to the
30:37
Speaker 3: truth and once you've been open to the truth, the
30:40
Speaker 3: next thing is to face it.
30:43
Speaker 1: You know what to let go.
30:44
Speaker 3: Then you're making decisions so apart from feeling and going
30:49
Speaker 3: through the pins and needles, but you are actually being
30:54
Speaker 3: brought right in front of your live TV that you've
30:58
Speaker 3: been running from in such a gentle and loving way,
31:03
Speaker 3: a nature way, and it puts you on a journey.
31:05
Speaker 3: But now you have the tools, and I think a
31:09
Speaker 3: lot of us don't have tools. Not that we want
31:12
Speaker 3: to stay in a depressed state. It's not that we
31:14
Speaker 3: don't want to stop drinking alcohol excessively, we don't want
31:17
Speaker 3: to stop the drugs, but we lack the tools. And
31:21
Speaker 3: not everyone wants to go to rehab. Not everyone wants
31:23
Speaker 3: to go through a clinical process. So out of whatever
31:28
Speaker 3: stigma or you know, whatever the reason may be, it
31:32
Speaker 3: sets you on a journey. It's not a quick fix,
31:35
Speaker 3: but it just gets you on a real path. Eboga
31:37
Speaker 3: medicine is a serious medicine and it confronts everything that
31:42
Speaker 3: you feel you cannot confront or you don't want to confront. Hence,
31:47
Speaker 3: I prepare people that this is a serious process, you know,
31:51
Speaker 3: and it has to be taken as serious. I always
31:56
Speaker 3: give this picture that sitting with the Boga is like
31:59
Speaker 3: sitting with your great great great grandfather or your great
32:02
Speaker 3: great grandmother. They're not here to you know, play with
32:06
Speaker 3: you and about very serious issues that are affecting your family, yourself,
32:11
Speaker 3: your future, the generation. They're going to tell you like
32:14
Speaker 3: it is. Googa is very direct. It will show you
32:17
Speaker 3: like it is. And you know, I see people sometimes
32:22
Speaker 3: they struggle with the truth, but in such a gentle way.
32:26
Speaker 3: And I always get these calls even six months after
32:29
Speaker 3: someone is set in ceremony with me and they tell me,
32:33
Speaker 3: Lewis I get it. The medicine just showed me something.
32:36
Speaker 3: You know it now it makes sense. It's so intelligent.
32:40
Speaker 3: It will know what you're ready to see and deal
32:43
Speaker 3: with now and what you're not. But again it comes,
32:47
Speaker 3: you know, with are you willing, you know, to start
32:50
Speaker 3: that journey.
32:52
Speaker 1: Yes, it's definitely a reckoning.
32:54
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say it's a dark knight of the soul,
32:56
Speaker 2: but it certainly, I mean, they're not the first night
32:59
Speaker 2: when we're up in this remote cabin in the mountains
33:01
Speaker 2: and the winds blowing and the rhine's pouring, it's coming
33:04
Speaker 2: out of the door. It was very dramatic scene, lightning
33:07
Speaker 2: flashing outside the whole thing. Oh my goodness, you come
33:11
Speaker 2: with your own light show.
33:12
Speaker 1: You know. It's fear, and we're all afraid, you know.
33:17
Speaker 3: And I only say to them, Okay, why don't we
33:20
Speaker 3: talk about what we're actually afraid of and what's on
33:24
Speaker 3: the other side of the fear. It's your piece, it's
33:27
Speaker 3: your joy, it's you feeling a peace of mind.
33:32
Speaker 2: Tell me what are the the most cherished moments you've
33:36
Speaker 2: had dealing with patients that I guess typify what this
33:40
Speaker 2: medicine is all about.
33:41
Speaker 3: I think most cherish moments would be Yes, someone who's
33:46
Speaker 3: almost you know, who's just giving up on their life.
33:49
Speaker 3: And you know, I remember she said to me, Lewis,
33:54
Speaker 3: this is my last stop. I've bought a nine millimeter
33:58
Speaker 3: gun and then I'm going to kill myself, so this
34:02
Speaker 3: is my last stop. And I said to Okay, let's go.
34:08
Speaker 3: And she spent a week with me. You know, it's
34:12
Speaker 3: it's a very emotional story for me because it's been
34:15
Speaker 3: a beautiful journey to watch. It's not easy for her,
34:18
Speaker 3: but she showed up not just for herself but for
34:21
Speaker 3: her children, and she gave it one hundred percent. And
34:26
Speaker 3: I saw a surrender every day, every moment, just surrender
34:31
Speaker 3: a lot. So there's lots of tears, lots of lots
34:35
Speaker 3: of sobbing, and she made it to the other side.
34:38
Speaker 3: She's still here doing amazing. You know, We're working on
34:42
Speaker 3: so many other areas of her life. But these are
34:44
Speaker 3: things that I work upon. I ask him, you know,
34:47
Speaker 3: are you are you more at peace? Are you more happy?
34:49
Speaker 3: And she says, my children are. So what fulfills me more.
34:52
Speaker 3: It's not just the people that I work with, but
34:54
Speaker 3: seeing how their families benefit from their loved ones coming back.
34:59
Speaker 3: And they're more sane, they're more at peace, they're more present.
35:05
Speaker 3: Just being present. That's a huge thing.
35:07
Speaker 2: I mean, I know plenty of police officers who I
35:09
Speaker 2: deal with and come on the show as well, who
35:12
Speaker 2: still struggle. One guy's turning eighty now and he still
35:14
Speaker 2: has night terrors about the time he shot a suspect.
35:18
Speaker 2: His wife can't sleep in the same bed because he
35:20
Speaker 2: strikes out another night, and it's still affecting every aspect.
35:23
Speaker 2: And he's one of the most brave, wonderful human beings
35:28
Speaker 2: who just can't shake off his experience in the service.
35:33
Speaker 1: And one thing also, which.
35:34
Speaker 2: Is a I think is very relevant in the recent experience,
35:37
Speaker 2: is one of the guys there was treated unfairly in
35:41
Speaker 2: his job, which exacerbated the.
35:42
Speaker 1: PTSD symptoms from his service.
35:45
Speaker 2: He's thinking, I did all these things for the people,
35:47
Speaker 2: for all these people I saved, then I get treated
35:50
Speaker 2: like this by my superiors, and his sense of worth
35:53
Speaker 2: just caved in through that. I really hope in his
35:56
Speaker 2: case that that's going to be addressed, and his feelings
35:59
Speaker 2: of anger.
36:00
Speaker 1: But I think that's common to many, particularly.
36:03
Speaker 2: Police for but I've also known criminal There's one guy
36:06
Speaker 2: who is he interviewed recently, who was he didn't robbery
36:09
Speaker 2: on an airport, trying to steal bags of money, and
36:10
Speaker 2: he's almost shot dead. He was shot in the shelves,
36:12
Speaker 2: shot in the back, and he should have died. He
36:14
Speaker 2: lives with that trauma every day, you know. And yeah,
36:16
Speaker 2: she can say you don't feel sorry for him, but
36:18
Speaker 2: when you look at the ripple effect in his life
36:20
Speaker 2: and he's still trying. He said to me in our interview,
36:23
Speaker 2: I just want to feel like a good person, you know.
36:26
Speaker 1: I think we all want to feel like that.
36:28
Speaker 3: We all want to feel like that, and we don't
36:31
Speaker 3: know the full story of anyone until you know, we
36:34
Speaker 3: really sat with them and you know, and you ask,
36:38
Speaker 3: you know, what went wrong? When did it go wrong?
36:41
Speaker 3: Some people starts from childhood, you know. Some people grew
36:44
Speaker 3: up with no parents, with no support and they had
36:48
Speaker 3: to find their own way, and it starts there.
36:51
Speaker 1: You know.
36:53
Speaker 3: That's what I love about this medicine. It goes to
36:56
Speaker 3: the route when did things go wrong? You know, you
36:59
Speaker 3: don't just wake up, you know, and you're stealing bags
37:01
Speaker 3: of money at an airport. Something went wrong somewhere. Let's
37:05
Speaker 3: go and have that conversation. You can only heal from
37:08
Speaker 3: the route. So it's not just you know about the incident,
37:12
Speaker 3: what happened five years ago?
37:14
Speaker 1: You know, maybe let's talk about the child or what
37:16
Speaker 1: was happening at home. Maybe there was.
37:18
Speaker 3: Chaos at home where your father and mother were not
37:21
Speaker 3: you know, the relationship wasn't good, and it affects children.
37:25
Speaker 3: And when a child has no support, they don't feel
37:28
Speaker 3: love and they're not getting you know, some of the
37:31
Speaker 3: basic emotional support. Just being listened to, how do we
37:36
Speaker 3: expect that person to be a fully present and you know,
37:41
Speaker 3: functioning effectively adult. So just looking at you know, where
37:47
Speaker 3: we are as human beings.
37:48
Speaker 1: We are struggling.
37:51
Speaker 3: You know, when you look at everything we've discussed, PTSD,
37:54
Speaker 3: the depression, you know, whatever traumas, it comes back to
37:57
Speaker 3: the mind.
37:59
Speaker 1: It really does.
37:59
Speaker 2: Another example, actually, a friend of mine has a podcast
38:02
Speaker 2: called The Clink Brent Simpson. Check it out. It's fantastic.
38:05
Speaker 2: Brent was sexually abused as a child severely and had
38:10
Speaker 2: no sense of safety at home, ended up as a criminal,
38:13
Speaker 2: went into the outlaw Biki scene, got out of that,
38:16
Speaker 2: but was now seeking a way to purge himself of
38:20
Speaker 2: all his experiences. In his way was incredible feats of
38:23
Speaker 2: endurance and strength where he rode a bicycle across Australia.
38:28
Speaker 1: Crazy. You know, I did that.
38:30
Speaker 2: And he's doing other things on marathon running and all
38:32
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, and I love him, but he's
38:34
Speaker 2: constantly still seeking, and I think as soon as he
38:38
Speaker 2: slows down, those negative feelings catch up with him again.
38:41
Speaker 2: So he's a hide and seek, chased me sort of situation.
38:44
Speaker 2: And I think some people like that and they're looking
38:47
Speaker 2: for something and they've been through everything. They've been through everything,
38:50
Speaker 2: and we have all these diagnoses now of attention deficit
38:53
Speaker 2: disorder and anxiety and stress and things, and we medicate
38:58
Speaker 2: for those things without ever getting to the source.
39:00
Speaker 1: And I really feel.
39:01
Speaker 2: And I again I think will be regarded as something
39:05
Speaker 2: that is a new pathway. I sound like an evangelist
39:09
Speaker 2: for this, but having read the material as well, not
39:12
Speaker 2: just for what you tell it, read the material as well,
39:15
Speaker 2: seeing the documentary, this does offer something for people across
39:20
Speaker 2: the spectrum.
39:21
Speaker 1: It does.
39:22
Speaker 3: I think, you know, when people are open to it,
39:26
Speaker 3: and you know they're open to to going through you
39:30
Speaker 3: know what we call the deep dive. You know, the
39:32
Speaker 3: research that is being extensively done now is showing it.
39:37
Speaker 3: And yeah, like I wouldys say to people, you know,
39:39
Speaker 3: when when the time has come for you, you know,
39:42
Speaker 3: and you really get that opportunity to sit with iboga,
39:47
Speaker 3: to sit with ayahuasca, you know, anything that can just
39:50
Speaker 3: take you to your truth and just process. It's so
39:54
Speaker 3: hard for us to move forward when we have that
39:58
Speaker 3: process what happened in the past and making a decision
40:02
Speaker 3: to let it go or keeping it.
40:05
Speaker 1: It's hard to move forward.
40:07
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, these medicines I borg have
40:11
Speaker 3: been one of them, are such brilliant gifts from nature
40:14
Speaker 3: that are here to help us as long as we
40:17
Speaker 3: are willing.
40:18
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:18
Speaker 2: I think that people are willing to now take this
40:20
Speaker 2: step because they've tried everything else and it's not working
40:23
Speaker 2: for them. So we could talk all day about this,
40:26
Speaker 2: but I think you talk about a deep dive. I'll
40:28
Speaker 2: call it a shallow dive, and one one night. So
40:31
Speaker 2: I'm keen to explore this further with you looking forward
40:35
Speaker 2: to it. Yeah, and take it again, and it'll be
40:38
Speaker 2: an honor as Luis, thank you, And I think it's
40:41
Speaker 2: got a lot to offer people. So I think i'd
40:43
Speaker 2: like to be able to take this back home and
40:45
Speaker 2: talk to my friends who've been involved in these violent, dangerous,
40:48
Speaker 2: dramatic moments that they can I'm speaking to you guys
40:52
Speaker 2: right now.
40:52
Speaker 1: You know who I'm talking about.
40:54
Speaker 2: There's probably half a dozen people I'm talking to right
40:56
Speaker 2: now that you need to accept that what you did
40:59
Speaker 2: was heroic and virtuous, and you served your community, and
41:02
Speaker 2: it's time that you got to come home, love yourself more,
41:06
Speaker 2: spend the rest of your days in contentment. I think
41:09
Speaker 2: this is something to explore. Let's leave it there, Lewis.
41:12
Speaker 2: It's been absolute pleasure talking to you. I'se thank you,
41:19
Speaker 2: It's Lewis and bueller there. We'll put some links in
41:22
Speaker 2: the show notes where you can look at more resources
41:25
Speaker 2: to understand this more fully, but do your own research,
41:29
Speaker 2: check it out, ask questions. But I think also don't
41:32
Speaker 2: just accept that your trauma is your life sentence. Something
41:37
Speaker 2: else you can do, and I think this is a
41:38
Speaker 2: good example of it. So I'm also very happy to
41:41
Speaker 2: talk to people. If you want to contact me Adam Shann,
41:44
Speaker 2: writer at gmail dot com and your experiences of trauma,
41:47
Speaker 2: I'll try to direct you to Lewis talk through whether
41:50
Speaker 2: this might be something for you, but also want to
41:52
Speaker 2: hear your stories. That's what this podcast is all about.
41:55
Speaker 2: So Adam Shann, writer at gmail dot com. If you
41:58
Speaker 2: want to report a crime, please call Crimestoppers. Wanted to
42:01
Speaker 2: have a triple three, triple zero man not trust the
42:03
Speaker 2: police though, so I'll talk you through it and we'll
42:06
Speaker 2: get some confidential assistance for you.
42:08
Speaker 1: Thank you once again for listening. This has been Adam
42:11
Speaker 1: Shanfer Real Crime.
42:21
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
42:24
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42:27
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42:30
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42:33
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42:35
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42:38
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42:41
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