Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 741: Trauma Treatment International with Dr. Brock Chisolm

Transcript

Episode 741: Trauma Treatment International with Dr. Brock Chisolm · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:10
  Or welcome back to the Trauma Diapors Podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
• 0:14
  My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible cells, to be human,
• 0:19
  to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
• 0:23
  who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
• 0:27
  authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
• 0:33
  about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
• 0:37
  That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right.
• 0:42
  So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back
• 0:48
  to the Trauma Favers podcast. I am very excited to have back doctor rockchisom
• 0:54
  Rock, Welcome back, Hey guy, how are you awesome? I'm so
• 0:58
  glad you decided to come back and join me. I really loved talking to
• 1:03
  you initially and that's why you're back here. So Brock has over fifteen years
• 1:10
  experienced in the psychological assessment and treatment of trauma survivors. He's a clinical psychologist
• 1:15
  and has assisted in the development and implementation of comprehensive services for trauma survivors internationally.
• 1:22
  In addition, he is also an advisory to several NGOs on self care
• 1:26
  and prevention of burnout strategies for staff who work with traumatized populations. Rock has
• 1:32
  provided expert witness in several high profile human rights violation cases in the UK and
• 1:38
  international courts. He's an approved expert for the Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative hosted by
• 1:42
  the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office and elected board member of the UK Psychological Trauma
• 1:49
  Society. How does that sound? That is you? So let's bring some
• 2:00
  people love to speed here who maybe didn't catch your first episode will certainly have
• 2:05
  that linked up in the show notes page here, but give us a kind
• 2:13
  of a snippet of First of all, where you're from originally and where you
• 2:16
  are currently? Okay, Well, I was born in Canada. I moved
• 2:22
  to the UK as a kid, I think I was twelve or thirteen,
• 2:28
  and then I spent most of my psychological career in London. But I've moved
• 2:32
  to the coast near Brighton in the UK. Okay, Okay, So how
• 2:39
  did this start for you? How did this interest start for you? I've
• 2:45
  always been interested in both human rights and psychology, so what I've been working
• 2:53
  with is the perfect overlap for that, and I guess. The other thing
• 3:00
  that I like about the work that we do is that people recover from trauma
• 3:06
  or can do that can be both post traumatic growth. People can see things
• 3:12
  differently and feel better afterwards. I don't mean that we can completely take the
• 3:15
  pain away, but I like working in an area where where there's improvement.
• 3:25
  Yeah, why human rights? When did that developer you? I think I
• 3:34
  think I've always had an interest in what's going on in the world. I
• 3:38
  very much believe that people are equal, no matter where they're from and who
• 3:44
  they are, and I also believe that we have to fight for those rights
• 3:52
  because in most places in the world, and indeed the places probably with the
• 3:57
  best human rights record, still have an incredible amount of violations. And if
• 4:01
  if I think some of the people take that for granted and don't realize that
• 4:13
  what they have is as important as they have, I guess until they lose
• 4:15
  it. So I'm not really sure, Okay, but I think I just
• 4:20
  liked reading the papers and staff. Yeah, human rights. I mean you
• 4:27
  know when you when you first said that, it kind of hits to the
• 4:29
  core. Um, you know that kind of the first thing I think I
• 4:32
  thought of was on a kind of a micro level of like one person hurting
• 4:40
  another, taking advantage of another, bullying another in a sense, and of
• 4:44
  course if you pan out to the macro, it becomes something something else.
• 4:48
  But for me, there's a there's a there's a sensation of my god,
• 4:55
  I you know, how can I help this other person? How can how
• 4:59
  can how can we help them? Because it stings? Did that in any
• 5:06
  way grow from any of your own experience? Oh, that's a great question.
• 5:12
  I mean, it is bullying on a state level, isn't it.
• 5:17
  And the effect that it has on a person is I think the same.
• 5:23
  And if a group of people bullies some one person, I think that's can
• 5:27
  often be worse because it feels like the whole world is against you. And
• 5:30
  when government's bully a minority, it must feel the same. And so yeah,
• 5:41
  I think you know, when I when I first moved from Canada to
• 5:45
  the UK in my first year, I had a Canadian accent, which people
• 5:51
  in England didn't like. So I got bullied there for sure and felt some
• 5:58
  of that. And then you know, then I moved away. I was
• 6:01
  just there for one year, moved to another school and it was completely different
• 6:05
  experience. People were nice, to one another people. It was in a
• 6:09
  different part of the country where things are easier, life is easier, and
• 6:15
  it was, yeah, much better. So I hadn't ever made that connection
• 6:24
  actually, but yeah, I would imagine that that very much formed a formative
• 6:29
  Yeah, I think that that would contribute absolutely. Yeah. No, you
• 6:33
  talked about in a way the intersection between human rights and psychology. How do
• 6:40
  you perceive that? Well, most a great deal of emotional health is dictated
• 6:55
  by the things that we experienced, the stuff that happens to us. It's
• 6:58
  impossible, as we all know, to go through life without having a trauma
• 7:03
  in your life. You know, the only way to escape trauma is to
• 7:09
  die young. So that so we have to accept that, and so difficult
• 7:18
  events shape who we are and how we feel. And psychology generally, and
• 7:27
  mental health generally, is really about trying to mitigate the effect of those It
• 7:32
  doesn't matter whether a person presents with our as PTSD or or depressed or and
• 7:46
  I'm not just interested in human rights, but those are the ones that those
• 7:51
  are the ones that I feel that there's something on a greater level that can
• 7:58
  be potentially done so that we live in a world which essentially people are more
• 8:05
  like the second school that I went to than the first school that I went
• 8:09
  to. Making that connection. Yeah, So in your organization, Trauma Treatment
• 8:20
  International, Trauma Treatment International, Right, so give us the broad brushstroke of
• 8:26
  what you folks are doing. Sure, so, I guess actually, just
• 8:31
  to go back to your question as well, why does human rights And there's
• 8:33
  so many traumas, sometimes it's helpful to focus just on a few things so
• 8:37
  that you can understand and learn what you're doing and become I guess better at
• 8:43
  providing at providing help. So Trauma Treatment International is set up to provide psychological
• 8:54
  interventions for people that have been set violence. Collective violence is essentially things like
• 9:07
  trafficking, torture, slavery, war, and our ethos is to try to
• 9:16
  support not just not so much directly people that have experienced this, though we
• 9:22
  do do that as well. We work, for example, with Hostage International
• 9:26
  people that have been held hostage around the world. We work with various journalists
• 9:31
  who are on the front line and song. But what we really want to
• 9:37
  do is to improve access to trauma treatment around the world. That's our aim,
• 9:43
  and so we want to accomplish that by training other people and providing supervision
• 9:50
  and support and so on in other countries so that the skills are there and
• 9:54
  so that the people that really need that can access. That's the first thing
• 10:00
  we do. And the second thing that we do is we work with organizations,
• 10:09
  normally not for profits, but it doesn't nation are seeking to try to
• 10:13
  either end things such as torture or slavery or elsehold people accountable. For example,
• 10:20
  um uh, media organizations which are providing providing the stories of what's really
• 10:31
  happening close up or um the ICRC or Human Rights Watch for example. So
• 10:39
  yeah, just intent. I mean no, I said this last time,
• 10:43
  but so bringing intense right, I mean you're dealing with the just. I
• 10:50
  mean it's hard to uh, you know, judge any trauma, but there's
• 10:56
  no doubt. I mean, this is this is very hardcore human trafficking and
• 11:01
  slavery and torture is on the far end of the continuum of what we're talking
• 11:05
  about here. Um, how do you well, let me let me ask
• 11:11
  you a question here. So those people who have been who have experienced trafficking
• 11:20
  and torture and min held hostage, is there a commonality in how they are
• 11:28
  and how you approach them to work with them. Oh yes, yes,
• 11:35
  with a caveat. You know, we are some of the time following traumas.
• 11:46
  As you know, people might have PTSD, maybe about half the people.
• 11:52
  So there's a commonality I think in post traumatic stress disorder events as if
• 12:03
  they're happening again, and that's that's a commonality because that's a neurobiological aspect that
• 12:07
  everybody's the same on that we all have an autobiographical memory, and if our
• 12:11
  autobiographical memory lacks sufficient context, has a meaning which is particularly impactful, then
• 12:20
  we're going to experience sensorially. We're going to smell it and see it and
• 12:24
  hear it and so on. So everybody, no matter where they're from,
• 12:28
  is prone to having that happen. And if that happens, it means that
• 12:33
  the thing that happened to them that was harmful isn't in the past. It's
• 12:37
  the last time they had a flashback, it's last time they had a night
• 12:41
  so they have had again and again and again. So there's a commonality there,
• 12:43
  and that's of course with all trauma, right, there's no difference to
• 12:48
  anything else. I guess another commonality to some of them the collect of violence
• 13:01
  that we're talking about, is that it's whole systems often and said hey,
• 13:11
  we're going to do this bad thing to you or to this group of people.
• 13:16
  We're all going to get together, we're going to try as hard as
• 13:18
  we can to do some terrible things. And for different reasons. Of course.
• 13:26
  Sometimes it's to make money, sometimes it's power. Sometimes it's just hatred.
• 13:31
  But that is often different from other types of trauma. You know,
• 13:35
  if somebody, if somebody attacks me in the street, for example, it's
• 13:41
  not very personal and it's one guy. But if I knew them, then
• 13:43
  it's more personal. That's a difference. But if it's my government, or
• 13:48
  if it's my if it's if it's if it's the government of the country that
• 13:50
  lives next door to me that are coming in with tanks and missiles, then
• 13:58
  that I think is a whole. I think that's a whole different. That's
• 14:03
  and that's and and and therein lies the intersection of psychology and um human rights.
• 14:13
  Yeah, I mean just the way you said that. I mean,
• 14:16
  my god, the impact the impact that that probably has on most people to
• 14:26
  think that a whole government or a whole collective of people have done have done
• 14:31
  this thing. To them, try to hurt them or harm them or torture
• 14:35
  them. Um, let me just shift here a bit, and what do
• 14:41
  you think rock It is within you personally that allows you to get in there
• 14:48
  and and do this type of work. M hm um. I mean,
• 14:56
  you know, personally, I I have a I do like to know what's
• 15:01
  going on in the world and understand what is happening and try and make sense
• 15:05
  of it. I feel I feel better if I feel as if I'm trying
• 15:16
  to make a positive contribution, you know it. I think we're all selfish
• 15:22
  in that respect. We do some things that make us feel better, and
• 15:24
  it makes me feel better to try and work in this. In this area,
• 15:31
  I also find people's stories are fascinating and I really really enjoy the connection
• 15:41
  that can be made from somebody whose life has been completely different from mine.
• 15:48
  And you know, in often sometimes people's lives are quite similar actually, but
• 15:54
  other people I work with, it's hard to imagine what they've been through,
• 15:58
  where they have come from or going on. I mean a country that mainly
• 16:02
  has a rule of law, I mean a country that mainly doesn't abduct and
• 16:06
  torture people. And that's just because of where I was born. I mean,
• 16:12
  that's just luck. But I really there's not one person that I've worked
• 16:19
  with where there hasn't been a connection that we can speak on a human equal
• 16:26
  level. And I love that. I really enjoy that. Let's just pause
• 16:30
  here for a second to thank our sponsors. All Right, we are back.
• 16:40
  I mean, I can't sit here and imagine what torture or being in
• 16:48
  war would be like. But it's interesting, you know, when you said
• 16:52
  in response to my question, you know, you like knowing what's going on
• 16:56
  in the world and trying to make sense of what's going on. And yet
• 17:00
  when you're talking about torture and human rights violations and trafficking, sometimes, how
• 17:08
  do you make sense of that? Right? There almost seems to be but
• 17:12
  and yet you said, well, sometimes it's done. There are reasons why
• 17:17
  it's done, you know, So that that to me is very difficult,
• 17:22
  a challenge to understand. How do you make sense of this harm that one
• 17:29
  person is doing to another on a very simplistic level. Well, you know,
• 17:37
  the last person that I saw today asked me a kind of a similar
• 17:42
  question. It was her final session. M She works in a war zone
• 17:52
  and in in a in a prison, um that were torturing of working in
• 18:03
  this prison. Her job was to try and help the people in the prison.
• 18:07
  She was there voluntarily, UM, and she needed to be evacuated out
• 18:15
  of this country because because she was traumatized, because she had PTSD from the
• 18:19
  work that she was doing. And one of the reasons that she was traumatized
• 18:26
  was that she had She was she was fairly young, and she'd gone in
• 18:29
  with high hopes. It was her first it was her first time doing this
• 18:34
  kind of work, and she went in with expectations that, hey, I'm
• 18:38
  I'm going to be able to stop the torture. I'm going to be able
• 18:41
  to stop the horrible things that's happening, or at least, you know,
• 18:45
  make much more of a difference than in fact, it turned out that she
• 18:49
  had and when that didn't work fairly quickly, UM, she found it understandably
• 18:59
  difficult to come in fact, all of the conditions that would sort if you
• 19:03
  if you had to design up place where you would I ended. And this
• 19:14
  was our final session today and she said, you know, how what what
• 19:18
  what what do you think about humanity? You know, how do you do
• 19:21
  do you retain any hope for humanity? Well? What do you think is
• 19:25
  going to happen. And we had a discussion about this together, and what
• 19:30
  we both agreed on is that, first of all, there are lots of
• 19:36
  things which are getting better, lots of things that are improving. Equality is
• 19:41
  generally going in the right direction, not in a straight curve, but it's
• 19:47
  you know, there are it is. You know, the slaver is at
• 19:52
  least illegal now compared to two hundred years ago. For example, we have
• 19:56
  same sex marriage, we have we have laws that at least trying to prohibit
• 20:03
  racism. That things are getting better, not worse in certain countries. What
• 20:11
  also happens is that in some places in in in fact, I think we
• 20:22
  agreed places, but in places where there's a dictator, by and large,
• 20:27
  that dictator isn't a benevolent one. They're there to control. They're there for
• 20:33
  power, money to an extent, but power mainly, and that person doesn't
• 20:42
  reflect the overall population. And so you get a small minority of people that
• 20:49
  end up having a lot of power now within society. Within all those societies,
• 20:56
  you also get a bunch of people that want to follow that strong leader
• 21:00
  for whatever reason. I find it really difficult to understand how that happens.
• 21:07
  Why that happens that I can't make sense of that. Perhaps we could talk
• 21:12
  about that a little bit later on. But so you have these places where
• 21:18
  you get a strong leader without empathy. You know, somebody who would score
• 21:23
  highly on the psychopathy scale, who it gets enjoyment from control her to or
• 21:36
  doesn't care about her, and those people remain in power. And going back
• 21:45
  to the question, you know, how do you retain faith in humanity?
• 21:48
  Well, I think it's a small number of people that have a large amount
• 21:52
  of control, and I do believe that providing and this is a big providing
• 22:00
  we don't kill ourselves, we don't end it soon. You know, in
• 22:03
  two hundred years time, I think the world would be a much better place,
• 22:07
  unless, of course, you know, there's armageddon, there's a climate
• 22:12
  catastrophe. You know, it's the sort of thing like if we can get
• 22:17
  past this, you know, things will be much much better. Things are
• 22:19
  all moving that way, but it's a scary place. There's a scary place
• 22:23
  at the moment. You know, in particular, things seem a little bit
• 22:27
  more frightening than they did, say ten years ago. Yeah, I mean
• 22:33
  that that's a good question that that person asked, and I think, as
• 22:37
  you're talking, what's coming up for me? Is I think the answer or
• 22:41
  at least my answer, would depend on where I'm standing at the moment,
• 22:45
  you know, my where if I'm if I'm really up close, or you
• 22:49
  know, you're talking about from a from a broader perspective, from from a
• 22:52
  global perspective, and how things have gotten safer in the world, of course,
• 22:57
  But um, you know, for me, I tend to operate more
• 23:06
  on a micro one to one level, and um, I would find it
• 23:15
  very difficult to respond to that person's question with things are are getting better?
• 23:23
  Um, because I tend to be more into the a closer perspective. And
• 23:33
  yet I would very you know, I understand that globally things are things are
• 23:37
  getting better, but I mean you're dealing with human trafficking and torture, and
• 23:44
  my god, I mean that that's still going on, yes, albeit on
• 23:48
  a smaller scale. Um. Yeah, I mean I think that's what I
• 23:56
  was trying to say. You know, at least things are proving in that
• 24:00
  slavery is illegal, for example, I don't think that it doesn't happen.
• 24:04
  Of course, there is an example. There are less wars now than there
• 24:10
  ever have been. Doesn't feel like that. But there are statistically less people
• 24:14
  dying in war than there has been any other time in history. That's better.
• 24:18
  But then, you know, we tend to see, especially when we
• 24:22
  focus on the more micro level and the news just generally, you know,
• 24:26
  it's hard to see that. It's hard to recognize that I spend at least
• 24:30
  half the week working with people who are in or affected by the Ukraine.
• 24:37
  You know, I can't tell them that the Ukraine is I'm not saying it's
• 24:40
  getting it definitely isn't I of course read the statistic of death for childs and
• 24:52
  influence in the US is now gun violence. I mean, that's that's a
• 24:56
  statistic that's getting worse. That's hard to explain. So part of part of
• 25:02
  what you folks do is you train people UM. And I'm presuming this young
• 25:07
  woman was one of those people who you folks trained to go out and work
• 25:11
  with. No, this was this this uh, this young lady, this,
• 25:18
  this young woman UM works for a large ENGNGO UM that have officers around
• 25:26
  the world kind of you know, like like the UN. She doesn't work
• 25:32
  for the UN, but that kind of global REACHUM. And she comes herself
• 25:38
  comes from a country that has a dictatorship which is very far from benevolent um
• 25:48
  and she was referred simply because she was traumatized and rather than it was it
• 25:56
  was one of the one of the less usual times where where we provide direct
• 26:00
  treatment to a group of okay, various organizations that we work at a wider
• 26:10
  level. But I think it's really really important to remember what we're doing by
• 26:14
  also continuing to provide therapy on a one to one level, so that so
• 26:18
  that we remember what we're talking. I don't think you can train people if
• 26:22
  you're not doing it very easily. Right right, Just mind number one,
• 26:25
  I'm speaking with brock Chism, doctor brock Chism of Trauma Treatment International. Just
• 26:32
  conscious of the time here you'd mentioned you wanted to talk touch base on I
• 26:37
  think this is a very interesting topic of how a group of people can follow
• 26:44
  such a an individual, a dictator, if you will, how does that
• 26:49
  happen? Well, I'm hoping you can tell me, guy. I mean,
• 26:55
  of course there have been historically, you know, examples of this,
• 26:59
  but it is a phenomenon, and a scary one at that. Yeah,
• 27:03
  I'll tell you what. I think. It's similar to, but again I
• 27:08
  haven't got much of an explanation. And the amount of people that you've spoken
• 27:14
  to and worked with, I'm hoping you can say, hey, actually listen
• 27:18
  back to our episode ninety one and then you'll get your answers. I'm really
• 27:22
  hoping for that, and no pressure I have off I. When I started
• 27:29
  my career, I worked with a lot of people who were affected by domestic
• 27:33
  violence. They were in controlling an abusive relationships and as we as we know,
• 27:44
  it takes a long time. Now some of that is very explainable.
• 27:48
  If you're economically tied up with that person, you're dependent on them. To
• 27:52
  Fiji kids, we can see that that you might that we can see how
• 27:56
  that might be similar to being in a regime where you're working for the government
• 28:03
  and you're paid by the government to do your job and follow orders, and
• 28:07
  it's very hard to escape and you can't just you know, get on a
• 28:10
  plane and just live somewhere else. So there are some similarities where there's kind
• 28:14
  of no choice. That's that I understand. But what also happens is for
• 28:22
  quite a while people sometimes some people are almost transfixed by this relationship. They
• 28:30
  explain it away, they know it's fine. You know he didn't mean it.
• 28:34
  They make excuses, they actually lie to to make this person who's clearly
• 28:44
  controlling an abuse of look better, and it's off. I wonder if some
• 28:56
  of the things that people call witchcraft years ago, although it tends to be
• 29:00
  more men controlling women rather than women who were called witches, so that is
• 29:07
  not the similarity. But it's like people are under a spell. And you
• 29:11
  know, I worked with someone who she was She's intelligent, she's assertive,
• 29:22
  she had a string of relationships that were good, and she came under the
• 29:26
  spell of somebody who was manipulative and manipulated her and controlled her. And she
• 29:33
  did this for years. She couldn't escape. She would she would go away
• 29:36
  for a week and think, right, I've got to go and then come
• 29:37
  back. And eventually I was able to escape that. But she explained it
• 29:42
  like as if under a spell. And I see that on a wider scale
• 29:48
  too. You know, you see people at rallies, you see people at
• 29:52
  Nazi rallies, you see people at I don't know, under putin. We
• 30:04
  are slightly dissociated. They're not They're in another reality. We can see it,
• 30:10
  and um in cults we see that a lot. I have to.
• 30:15
  I happ't been just started watching like the documentary about Waco. Yes, um,
• 30:22
  you know correct. So it seems as if we're all susceptible to this,
• 30:26
  to becoming like hypnotized as this is the bit I can't explain, guy
• 30:30
  mate, can you? Uh well, no, but what's coming up for
• 30:37
  me is a clear narcissistic personality on one hand, and it almost feels like
• 30:45
  a lock and a key, right that two need each other to exist.
• 30:48
  Um, it's very similar to uh well, as you said, I think,
• 30:55
  or implied an abusive relationship with one person leans away what the other person
• 31:02
  is doing. It's and not only that, but in a lot of instances,
• 31:07
  is influencing the group of people to enact right certain atrocities on a collection
• 31:18
  of other people. I mean, it's it's frightening and scary. And no
• 31:23
  I don't I don't have a particular episode the point too, but it's it's
• 31:30
  I think it's a phenomenon that's that's really interesting and that is still occurring today
• 31:34
  obviously. Yeah, And I mean there are some things that we can understand.
• 31:38
  So for example, if you control, if you manipulate the truth so
• 31:45
  people on an individual level, on those kinds of relationships, the narcissistic person
• 31:51
  and the map manipulative way, you can completely control roll what the message is
• 32:00
  where you can completely dictate. Let's let's take Putin's rush at the moment,
• 32:06
  you know, he's he's shut down. Now everything that isn't the message that
• 32:10
  he wants to give. But what also happens, though, is that you
• 32:15
  know that there are these Russas again quite good, I think sending out these
• 32:21
  alternative facts let's call them, where they're using Facebook to present an alternative reality.
• 32:29
  And I think a lot of people that believe that. I think some
• 32:32
  people that believe those things want to believe them because they say, hey,
• 32:37
  you know, I know the truth. You don't know what the real truth
• 32:39
  is. I I know that there's um kids taken in a pizza you know,
• 32:49
  a pizza restaurant in Washington and so on, and you don't. And
• 32:52
  that means that means you know, that's because I'm smart and you're a stupid
• 32:55
  kind of thing. And then I can see the motivation for some people and
• 33:06
  believing that. And you know, now that communication has changed so much since
• 33:12
  I don't know, you know, since the Internet, I guess, and
• 33:16
  that does make the world a more frightening place because people are more susceptible.
• 33:21
  You know, I don't believe that everybody that joined ISIS was evil. They
• 33:23
  were sucked in in the same way. I don't believe that everybody that joined
• 33:28
  any of those are I don't know. I'm not sure that I could define
• 33:34
  what evil is. But I don't think that all of those people are bad.
• 33:37
  I think many of those people think that they're doing it for the right
• 33:39
  reasons. I also think that there are people that just like doing harmful,
• 33:45
  hatred things. As we kind of wind out here, Brock, who you
• 33:52
  know the listeners here are therapists of all kinds, survivors of all kinds.
• 34:00
  Who would you encourage to check out your website? Trauma Treatment International? Oh
• 34:07
  well, we got a number of good projects at the moment. We're providing
• 34:13
  therapy to Afghan judges and lawyers which escaped the Taliban. Wow. We are
• 34:22
  provided getting training to families, which it was for people hosting Ukrainians in their
• 34:32
  own home, but it's it's now the funding for that's now a wider project.
• 34:37
  So anybody who wants tips on how to host people who have escaped trauma.
• 34:47
  If you are in an organization or you're in work where you are either
• 34:52
  exposed directly to trauma yourself from what you're doing, or else you're working with
• 34:58
  traumatized people, then we have a resource hub about how to keep you doing
• 35:02
  the best job that you can if, especially if your job is to try
• 35:06
  and end those traumas. And I would mainly include I would mainly encourage any
• 35:13
  billionaire that happens to be watching right now, we would like to fund what
• 35:16
  we're doing. That would be my first I'll probably put that top of the
• 35:21
  list if I'm turned out. And this is going to surprise you, guy.
• 35:28
  A lot more money is spent on harming people in the world than it
• 35:31
  is on helping people. That'd be nice to change that woman. Yeah,
• 35:40
  well, look, Brock, awesome talking to you, so inspiring to talk
• 35:45
  to you, man. I mean, what you're doing is just so laudable
• 35:51
  and I'm so glad there are people like you out there, sincerely who are
• 35:55
  doing this work. So your website is t T hyphen I NTL dot org
• 36:04
  or just a Google Trauma Treatment International Again, we'll have that linked up at
• 36:07
  the show notes page. Um. Look, love talking to you and thank
• 36:15
  you so much for joining me again. Thanks guy, all right, take
• 36:17
  care, have a good weekend. Hi,