Latest / The Price of Music / Live Nation loses in court; Strong Opinions On Geese (of course); Live royalty argy-bargy; and live music reform in the UK...

Transcript

Live Nation loses in court; Strong Opinions On Geese (of course); Live royalty argy-bargy; and live music reform in the UK... · The Price of Music

0:03
Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by
0:06
Music Ally, the show that both looks at the finances, the music
0:09
industry whilst also bringing you stories and comments from
0:13
the past week in the pop business.
0:15
He's Stuart Dredge. I'm Steve Lamack.
0:17
Let's start with a financial fact, as always, which you can
0:21
use to amaze your friends or colleagues or passing musicians
0:25
or fellow members of the music industry if you happen to work
0:29
in the business. Stuart's big number for this
0:31
week is. 739.1 million and this is I hope you haven't been put
0:39
off me giving you big numbers relating to BTS, the K Pop
0:42
group. After the recent episode where I
0:44
said a big number, it turned out to be completely wrong, right?
0:47
But this one, this one is 100% factually correct.
0:51
Is it? Absolutely yes.
0:54
This is how many. So 739.1.
0:56
This is how many streams the new BTCM got in its first week
0:59
alone. Well.
1:01
Which is, according to Illuminate, whose business is in
1:03
counting streams so they know how many.
1:07
It's a kosher number which. So so so so so It's 739.1
1:13
million streams in a week. In a week.
1:16
And that is, it's not the not the world record.
1:18
I mean it's the highest first week total since Taylor Swift
1:21
last October. She did 1.3 billion streams in a
1:24
week with her. Album, right?
1:25
OK. For context, yeah.
1:27
But the thing I thought was interesting, like they they
1:29
broke down where these dreams are coming from.
1:31
So like the US is BTS is biggest country for streams.
1:34
No surprise it's the biggest music market.
1:37
But Brazil and Mexico are second and third.
1:39
And if 10 years ago I'd said to you, do you know K pop's really
1:43
big in Latin America, you'd probably have looked at me and
1:46
probably have gotten what's K pop.
1:48
But now this is it. So if you're, if you're BTS,
1:51
you're thinking now, right, 22, I think biggest markets are
1:55
Brazil and Mexico. We'll do some big stadium gigs
1:57
there. It's not just all about the US
1:58
anymore. Yeah, OK, Here's three other
2:01
stories that are worth mentioned this week.
2:03
The first one is an ongoing story from the States where Live
2:07
Nation have lost a major lawsuit which could see it forced to
2:13
sell its Ticketmaster division. I say could I emphasise could
2:18
is, is that, is that likely to, to happen?
2:21
I mean, this is something we've been following for a while.
2:23
This story, isn't it? You should explain the
2:25
background I guess to this. Yeah, sure.
2:27
But this goes back to 2024. So the US Department of Justice
2:31
sued Live Nation, essentially saying it was an unlawful
2:34
monopoly and it was making US music pans, overpay for tickets.
2:38
But that lawsuit also included 30 state and district attorneys
2:42
to individual states. And that's important because
2:45
last month, the trial began. And then a few days in, Live
2:48
Nation reached a settlement with the Department of Justice.
2:50
We say, OK, we're not going to see you anymore.
2:52
They agreed to make some changes, didn't make any
2:54
wrongdoing, but it's settled. And that would normally be the
2:57
end of the case, but the states carried on suing it.
3:00
They didn't take part in that. So the trial carried on.
3:03
And now it wasn't the Department of Justice, it was the state
3:07
penalties. And now Live Nation's lost.
3:09
So yeah, it was a jury in charge of this decision.
3:12
So jury agreed this, a jury agreed that Live Nation's an
3:17
illegal monopoly and it's been overcharging fans.
3:19
Those are the two key things. Right.
3:22
And now there is a judge of the case, and the judge now has to
3:25
decide what punishment it faces, which, like you said, could
3:28
involve being forced to tell Ticketmaster, because that was
3:31
one of the big things in the lawsuit, was, is it too powerful
3:34
owning the biggest ticketing company?
3:37
So Gil, so Live Nation just to just a flesh out like Live
3:42
Nation and not just promoters, they also own venues and they
3:46
own Ticketmaster, obviously a huge ticketing company as well.
3:49
As you say, there was there was a meeting between Live Nations
3:53
boss Michael Rapino and the the the DOJ was, you say they came
3:57
to some sort of agreement, which did include, I think they were
4:01
the Live Nation were committing to selling off a number of
4:04
venues. As you say, they didn't admit
4:06
any wrongdoing. They said, all right, we'll get
4:09
rid of some venues, we'll make some adjustments to our business
4:12
model, but essentially we'll sort of carry on.
4:16
But now, yeah, when, when do we know when the judge will will
4:20
make his, well, judgement? Well, it's quite complicated
4:24
really, because Live Nation had already filed some legal motions
4:28
challenging aspects of this case, and those have been put
4:31
off until the jury made decisions.
4:33
So what happens now is these motions, which relate to kind of
4:36
things it disagrees with the case will now get ruled on and
4:39
that could affect the outcome. And there was this quote from
4:41
Live Nation saying the jury's verdict is not the last word on
4:45
this matter, which sounds, and it could also appeal those
4:49
rulings which like them. So there's going to be basically
4:51
more arguments, a couple more rulings, possibly appeals, and
4:56
then this long term decision of whether it could be fine.
4:59
It could have to sell Ticketmaster.
5:01
But there's this other case that that people have been talking
5:03
about in in relation to this, which is a few years ago Google
5:06
got sued and it also came off on the wrong end of this lawsuit.
5:10
And there it could have been forced to sell Chrome, which is
5:13
like it's web browser business or Android, it's mobile
5:16
business. And for similar reasons, like
5:17
it's too powerful, you owning these things.
5:20
And it didn't have to in the end, it just made some changes
5:23
and agreed to share more data with its rivals.
5:26
And so people are sort of saying that might be the point to what
5:28
happens here, that it won't get forced to that, but it will.
5:31
It will be forced to kind of change some of the things that
5:34
we complained about. And actually, there's another
5:36
quote in Live Nation statement saying we don't think the final
5:38
outcome will be much different to our settlement with the DOJ.
5:42
So Live Nation clearly thinks that this will end with not
5:45
having to sell Ticketmaster, just making some changes to its
5:48
business and correcting some of the things that people have been
5:50
having a go at it about. But this could take a while.
5:53
It's, it's interesting though that with this judgement in the
5:57
States, everyone around the world, wherever Live Nation
6:00
operates will be watching this really closely.
6:03
Because whatever happens in the States, then will it then the
6:07
question is, will it then have a, a knock on effect in other
6:12
countries, including here in the UK?
6:14
Because I mean, as we know, Department of Business and Trade
6:17
launched that enquiry, didn't they, just before Christmas into
6:19
how, how the live music industry works and whether there are any
6:23
particular barriers to entry or expansion.
6:26
I, it has one company got too much power.
6:29
And without naming them, I think you know, it was, it would be,
6:33
it would be probably a decent punt to basically say they're
6:38
thinking of Live Nation holding maybe too much power.
6:42
Yeah, well, like you say, if you own the venue and you promote
6:44
the gigs and you sell tickets, there's things like, OK, So what
6:47
if a venue wants to use different ticketing provider?
6:50
And do you then say, well, we're not bringing this big artist to
6:53
it to your venue? You know, that's some of the
6:55
things that we discussed in the States.
6:56
But yeah, like you say, I don't think that legally it doesn't
6:58
apply to the rest of the world. But no, if if rivals risk the
7:01
world are thinking right, well, the US ruling went this way.
7:04
So now we're going to challenge them in the UK or Germany and
7:07
France, wherever. So it could spark a whole follow
7:10
on or it could make a change in advance, couldn't it?
7:12
I suppose it could. It could try.
7:13
And get ahead of that. And I guess you know, one of the
7:15
questions will be if you know from this ruling in the States,
7:19
does that, would that potentially embolden Department
7:23
of Business and Trade over here to question Live Nation further
7:27
about their practices in the UK? We don't know which we'll see.
7:31
On top of this, there are a few disgruntled live music fans in
7:35
our next story, which is the publication of the Government's
7:38
Culture, Media and Sport Committee's Fan LED review into
7:43
Live Music, which was well published last week.
7:48
This you might remember, this is the review, the fan LED review
7:51
which Lord Kevin Brennan came on this programme to talk about as
7:56
they were compiling it last year, because there was, you
7:59
might remember, there was a widely reported fan LED survey
8:03
of what football fans thought of their lot.
8:05
Well, this, this has been live music's equivalents.
8:08
It's actually into live and electronic music.
8:13
This fan LED review which canvas fans around the UK, somewhere
8:18
around I think just over 4000 fans responded to this about how
8:22
they interact with music. It is the final report.
8:26
It's very comprehensive. It's 100 pages long.
8:29
Although it's not a boring read, it's it's a it's a really
8:32
interesting read and it does give you a lot of insight into
8:35
what fans actually think about, you know, going to gigs and
8:39
what's good and what's not so good.
8:42
But yeah, you've you've read most of this and it does make,
8:45
it makes some interesting observations and one or two
8:47
recommendations, doesn't it? It does good bedtime reading
8:51
speak. But yeah, I mean, there's a
8:52
really, I mean Kevin bred Lord, sorry, Lord Brennan.
8:54
He's a good for a punchy quote, isn't he?
8:56
I think his quotes are like fans feel neglected and ripped off.
8:58
And that was the the gist driving it.
9:01
Yeah. And yeah, I think it's 50
9:02
recommendations. And it's, it's tough, like real
9:05
details. So it's things like making gigs
9:07
more accessible for people with disabilities, making earplugs of
9:10
water more available, which reminded me of the My Bloody
9:12
Valentine gig I went to where the stewards were like, here's
9:14
the earplugs. And we were like, no, thanks.
9:16
And they were like, no, you will have these earplugs.
9:19
They're not going without them. But I guess the two headline
9:22
makers, aren't they? One is the Music Fans
9:24
Association and the other is banning the resale of tickets
9:27
above face value, which in my mind, I mean, I'm trying.
9:31
I've been you've been following us much closer to me, I think.
9:33
But at one point the government was maybe going to put a cap on
9:35
resale, wasn't there, but it would be higher.
9:37
But didn't they? Did they then come out and say
9:39
actually no, we might ban them for for anything above resale?
9:42
Yeah, I mean, I think the recommendation which isn't
9:47
obviously hasn't it hasn't been put before the House of Commons
9:51
yet. And that this is this is a bone
9:53
of contention now. Because although the idea of,
9:58
yeah, what we should do to cure this problem and put money back
10:01
in actual fans pockets is we will just cap resale at, well,
10:07
nothing. Essentially, you you won't be
10:10
able to sell tickets for more than the price that they cost in
10:14
the first place. I think to music fans feels not
10:18
that controversial. I mean, yeah, no, I.
10:22
Can't go sell it? Sell it to someone the same
10:24
price. If you're buying it to sell at
10:26
profit, you know can't weep any tears for you not be able to do
10:30
that. Yeah, we were all prepared.
10:31
I think people in live music were prepared for a, you know, a
10:34
cap of maybe 15%, twenty. I mean, as high as 20%.
10:39
There was a worry that it might be as high as 30%, but whatever
10:42
percentage it is still means that people can make money out
10:46
of it. If it had been around 2030%,
10:48
that's still enough markup for the touts to operate within and
10:53
for the big websites to operate within to make themselves quite
10:57
a healthy profit. But no.
10:59
Anyway, so we we're waiting now to see whether this
11:03
recommendation, whether the legislation goes before the
11:06
House of Commons. So will it be in The King's
11:08
Speech come the autumn, which we all hope it will be, but it's
11:12
not certain it will be. And that is the thing, isn't it,
11:14
for non UK listeners, I guess, is that this is just a committee
11:17
of politicians recommending what the government should do.
11:20
But the government can choose to, as we remember the streaming
11:22
economy report and that made lots of recommendations, also
11:24
with Lord Brennan involved. And a lot of that didn't happen
11:28
in legislation, but it did lead to other changes by the
11:30
industry. So even if the government
11:32
doesn't do it, it can, it can still have an impact existing.
11:36
This, this report is a great basis now for people to argue,
11:40
you know, to use as an argument to go back into government and
11:44
to talk about and start, you know, a bigger debate.
11:48
I think what this does is it really endorses the voice of
11:54
live music fans. That's what we needed was
11:57
someone, you know, someone in and around government to
12:00
actually put into a report, put into writing.
12:03
We have done all the research for you and this is what actual
12:07
fans of music think there are. If you even if you just want to
12:11
skim through it quite early on, there's a bit in the report
12:15
where it issues. It's like there's seven key
12:17
points, 7 sort of well loose, you know, loose categories of
12:22
recommendation, which are celebration, you know, that live
12:25
music is it should be not just for money making but for the
12:29
public good is the quote. And then the other things are
12:33
ticketing. You should treat fans with
12:35
respect, give them transparency and as you mentioned, RIP off
12:39
practices, talks about grassroots music, safety,
12:42
accessibility, transport, which I thought was interesting
12:46
because there is a bit saying, you know, it would be a lot
12:49
easier. You could put on more gigs and
12:51
more people would go, which would be great as long as you're
12:55
not standing waiting for a mini cab because all the buses
12:59
finished 10 minutes before the gigs ended.
13:03
So make live music a central part of transport policy is is
13:07
one of the lines in the report. And then the final thing is just
13:12
give the give the fans an ongoing voice.
13:15
Listen to the what the fans are saying and listen to them across
13:20
all genres. As I say, I mean, let me it's,
13:24
it's a, it's a really comprehensive review and there's
13:28
a lot in it. And if you'd like to know more,
13:31
you can find the whole thing online.
13:33
But well done to Lord Brennan and his team, including Sam
13:36
Duckworth, who we've spoken to on this program as well before.
13:39
He was pivotal to the whole exercise.
13:42
It sounds like we're pivotal to the whole exercise.
13:45
In a sense, it may be that. So yeah, I mean, yeah, it's,
13:50
it's a really good report. I mean I'm sure this fan LED
13:53
review, sure it would have gone down well with the Music Venue
13:56
Trust because it is very supportive of grassroots music
13:59
venues and gigs. However, someone the Music Venue
14:03
Trust is less happy with this week and not just this week is
14:09
PRS. There is There's an argument
14:12
brewing in the UK between MVT and the collecting society PRS
14:17
for Music, and it's all about how royalties from concerts are
14:21
collected and divided. Yeah, so there are two ways of
14:25
people to get into the story. You can listen to what we say
14:27
now or you can go and read the 8600 words plus written in blog
14:31
post by Mark David of the David of the Music Venue Trust,
14:34
because he's really gone into detail on this.
14:36
But I can try and summarise, shall I?
14:38
And then we can sort of get into.
14:39
That yeah, give us a pricey. So Imperious Music Basics
14:43
collects money from venues and pays songwriters if their songs
14:46
have been performed at those venues and concerts as long as
14:49
they're its members. And the Music Venue Trust
14:52
represents those venues, the grassroots ones.
14:54
And it's been unhappy for quite a while now.
14:56
But how that money is collected and calculated.
14:58
And one of the reasons here is that it says many people playing
15:03
these smaller venues, they're unsigned artists playing their
15:05
own songs. And they may not be members of
15:07
PRS for music. They may not have registered
15:09
those songs, which basically means that it collects a certain
15:12
amount of money from the venues. It doesn't doesn't change, it
15:14
just collects the money and as if every song played there is by
15:20
one of its members. And MBT says it's not the case.
15:23
So there's a bit in this report says it reckons that between 20
15:26
and 34% of songs played at these venues are by PRS members.
15:30
And yet it collects money as if it was 100% of them.
15:34
And the the issue here, that's kind of between 3.9 million and
15:37
4.8 million a year. And the MBT says, well, a lot of
15:42
that money is now going to PRS music members, not the people
15:45
who actually wrote the songs that played.
15:47
That's one of its core. There's another bit where it's
15:49
identified more than it's a great #666,000 lbs in
15:54
discrepancies in what's being paid and collected, which sounds
15:59
like a sort of number you make up to make someone sound like
16:01
the devil. The number of the beast.
16:03
But. They're actually said no, no,
16:05
it's a genuine number we've calculated should to what
16:08
appear. As for music, they put a
16:09
statement out saying essentially it's doing its best to collect
16:12
accurate data and what songs are played to speed up its payments,
16:15
to make sure the money goes to the right people.
16:18
And it kind of said it wants to work with all parties to improve
16:21
these press and make sure it's doing the right thing.
16:23
So it didn't really go point by point in response to all these
16:26
accusations. It more gave this more general
16:28
statement saying we're doing our best and we'd like to work with
16:31
you to do better. One of the music venue arguments
16:35
is that we've been saying this for a long time and no change
16:37
has happened. So This is why this has kind of
16:40
suddenly exploded, I guess, into a campaign.
16:43
It's kind of frustration on their part that we haven't been
16:45
able to. Get it's not it's it's not a new
16:47
Nicholas, though. So people have complained about
16:49
this before because is it's what do they call it the black box?
16:54
Is it the black box that so money, that money that is
16:58
collected by PRS that doesn't, it doesn't necessarily all go
17:02
to, as you say, if you fail to, if you've failed to send in your
17:05
set list, you, you won't get paid.
17:08
But instead the money that's been collected will go to PRS
17:12
members. And in a lot of cases, that's
17:14
the big names at the top that are getting the money.
17:16
And this was something which I think wasn't it Dave Roundtree
17:19
who threatened to sue PRS or take them to court at one point
17:23
because he was making the point that money being collected
17:27
wasn't going where it should go. It was going into this
17:29
mysterious pot of money and then being shared out to some of the
17:34
big stars who don't need your money.
17:36
Yeah, he took them to the UK competition appeal to be nil.
17:39
And I get that was actually thrown out in the end.
17:42
So, you know, legal, legal note. But yeah, I think it is this
17:45
idea. I mean, and, and a lot of this,
17:46
it's not, it's not particularly hidden.
17:49
It's like if we collect money, we don't know who to pay it to.
17:52
We we don't just keep it, we pay it out.
17:54
And yeah, that's based on basically the market share of
17:58
people. So, yeah, the big article.
17:59
So that was one of the things when he said it was like, OK,
18:02
there's money that should go to grass roots songwriters.
18:05
That is not it's going to the biggest songwriters.
18:09
And that's and it's how the system works rather than
18:11
accusing PRS of any kind of particular chicanery, you know,
18:14
trying to steal money. And it's a complicate.
18:17
This though, the same the day after this was all announced,
18:20
the Council of Music makers. But so this is the body that
18:23
represents musicians and songwriters and and they weighed
18:26
in saying, look, whatever happens with this, don't collect
18:29
less money from live music because that would harm
18:32
songwriters and that would harm musicians, you know, don't end
18:35
up collecting less money. And then that in turn is led to
18:39
a new reaction from Mark at the movement saying, look, this
18:42
campaign is saying we're trying to payless money to songwriters.
18:44
That's not what this is about. It's about making it go in the
18:46
right place. So it's kind of that typical UK
18:49
industry thing of of really intense arguments about some
18:52
quite specific, very, very, very legal points.
18:56
But when you boil it down, it's about the money that's
18:59
collected. Who's it going to?
19:00
Another The right people. And I think everyone is saying
19:03
we want to get that right, but they're disagreeing about
19:06
whether they're doing enough and what the best way of doing it
19:09
is, I guess. So that was a good summary of a
19:11
very complicated legal argument. Everyone wants to do the right
19:15
thing, they just can't agree yet.
19:18
Yeah. And also, but I mean, if someone
19:20
somewhere is going to put their hands in their pocket as well to
19:23
to make it happen. So who's who's going to pay for
19:25
because isn't there, I remember reading this going back to
19:29
electronic music, there is a system, isn't there?
19:32
A piece of kit which which records the sort of the records
19:38
that are being played in a club and automatically forwards the
19:42
details. There's a company called Urdu
19:44
that are British actually don't made this box.
19:46
Yeah, it's basically Shazam for for this kind of thing.
19:49
I mean, obviously live music is a challenge in itself because
19:51
it's not the recorded thing if it's if.
19:53
It's yeah, you couldn't, yeah, you couldn't use this for live
19:55
music, but in for, for, for records made by dance artists
20:00
being played, played in clubs. I mean that seems like a a
20:04
solution, but only if all the clubs are kitted out with that
20:08
gear. Yeah, and it's weird, isn't it?
20:10
Because it also comes down to humans.
20:12
Like if you're the promoter of a concert, you send your set list
20:15
off. Don't forget to do that if
20:18
you're a young songwriter, there is an argument to say, well,
20:21
you, why haven't you registered with PRS Music or Collecting
20:24
society? There's money there for you if
20:26
you do. So that's something that PRS
20:28
would say, I think is like if people are playing music and
20:31
live and they're not registered with us, well, they should come
20:33
and register with us and then we can pay them.
20:35
And that's part of this argument too, but.
20:37
Yeah, I mean, it puts, it puts more, it's more work for both
20:42
the promoters and the musicians, isn't it?
20:44
You've, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to make sure.
20:48
I mean, the promoter at the end of the night's not going to go
20:50
right The rights Hand in your sheets, hand in your set lists.
20:54
Who wrote this? Then I'll then I'll copy them
20:56
down and send all the details off.
20:59
I just think, you know, I mean, and also there are people who
21:03
are just not aware that that's how you get paid.
21:06
And we've talked about some. We were young, young bands and
21:08
young artists. Now this is part of the part of
21:10
the the, the work to do, isn't it?
21:13
Understand where you need to register and who and how and
21:15
agree your splits, agree who wrote the song and how much and
21:18
get that all sorted so that when you do play live, if there's
21:21
money, it comes back to you. So yeah, it's a it's a really
21:24
complicated situation. And like, I think there's
21:25
obviously some some beef niggle here between the trust and the
21:29
PRS because of this is a long running argument.
21:33
And so it's come out as that they've now just campaigned and
21:35
I think it's cool, but it's got it's got a title.
21:37
It's like a real, like we're going to go after them about
21:40
this. But really, this this will
21:42
involve sitting down and hammering out how you make how
21:45
you make sure everyone gets paid, who should get paid and
21:48
the money is going in the right places.
21:51
Any other business? Oh, you.
21:53
That's Stuart Sent me, sent me this saying here's a question
21:59
for you. Coldplay, Ed Sheeran, Dua Lipa,
22:02
Arctic Monkeys and Calvin Harris were the five most streamed
22:05
British artists in the world in 2025.
22:08
How many of them actually released a new album that year?
22:12
None. 1111. Yeah.
22:16
OK, just the one. Just the one Ed Sheeran, which
22:19
wasn't one of his bigger ones, you know, It was.
22:21
Yeah, This came from the BPI. Like, they had their annual
22:23
yearbook. And the headline for the
22:26
announcement was kind of like we did a survey.
22:28
And Brits feel greater national pride in music than film, TV,
22:31
games, literature, theatre and sports.
22:33
And I sort of thought, you know, a bit of the TV industry body
22:37
did a survey. It would show the opposite, that
22:39
TV was the most loved thing, you know.
22:41
But below that headline, there was this list of the most
22:44
streamed artist last year. And yeah, like Coldplay,
22:47
Dualipa, Arctic Monkeys and Harvard Harris, they didn't have
22:50
an album out last year, but they were among the top five.
22:53
And you've got Adele and Oasis and The Beatles and Elton John
22:55
and Queen also in the top kind of 20, which is not a bad thing
23:00
or like a gotcha or something. Like look at how terrible things
23:02
are. It just shows like what
23:04
streaming is about. It's about catalog, isn't it?
23:07
You can be Arctic Monkeys and you can, your last album came
23:10
out in 2022, but you were the 4th most streamed British act in
23:13
the world last year. That's what things are about.
23:16
And that's what's driving a lot of the industry now is that you
23:20
can come out and have a new a new artist with a new album and
23:22
have a hit. But it's really about can you
23:25
become a multi album catalog artist and do the big numbers
23:29
over time. Yeah.
23:31
And how how hard it is to then break into that top echelon and
23:37
how hard it is for new bands Talking.
23:40
Talking of which, I think it's probably worth mentioning this
23:43
because it's created quite a bit of copy over the past week, even
23:47
if a lot of it is. I mean, it's probably bollocks.
23:52
The story before you, rather than before you introduced it.
23:55
Well, people will have some, some of you will have seen this
24:00
Geese who were one of the big breakthrough rock bands of last
24:04
year. Geese have come in for some
24:07
accusations of being basically, you know, that they were just
24:11
marketed to the top. It's not a genuine, it's not a
24:14
genuine fan phenomena. But yeah, it's all about the
24:18
marketing tactics which help them.
24:20
That's that's what's been to the spotlight, isn't it?
24:23
Yeah, I mean, I was, I was like, who are geese?
24:25
Right up to the point where they won a British award this year,
24:27
which she says much more about me, just about their kind of
24:30
marketing strategy. But they've been around for a
24:33
while. They've they've put a bunch of
24:35
albums out, played live, growing the audience that they've been
24:37
paying their dues. But then suddenly they're having
24:40
these virtual bricks throwing them on the Internet for being.
24:42
And the word is psyops, which I had to go and look up.
24:46
So I had it clear in my head what psyops is.
24:48
Psyops is surely something from a Marvel comic.
24:52
It does sound like it, yeah. Someone with eight legs.
24:54
And no, it's, it's about military and government
24:57
influence and misinformation and propaganda like psyops, what
25:01
they would do when they would want to try and do something
25:03
shady. And it's not something you
25:04
generally think about in terms of rock bands with curly haired
25:07
playing nice songs. So where where this comes from
25:10
is there's this company called Chaotic Good, which to me is
25:14
Dungeons and Dragons phrase to other nerds out there as well.
25:18
But they're a music marketing agency and they work for geese.
25:20
And well, they're like quite a lot of big artists.
25:22
And they did this podcast where they talked about the secrets to
25:24
song virality. It's the phrase that might make
25:27
us both go. And this phrase called trend
25:31
simulation, which is where this all boils down to.
25:33
And what it is, is trend simulation is essentially about,
25:36
it's making it seem like a song is trending on TikTok.
25:40
So, so making it seem like that to the point where the algorithm
25:44
goes, oh, this song is trending, I'll show it to loads more
25:47
people. And then it really is trending
25:49
because people like it and start using it.
25:51
So it's kind of a tactic that involves essentially getting
25:55
loads of accounts posting about a song or a band until the
25:58
algorithm picks up on it and then real people join the trend,
26:01
right. And it's been, I mean, this is
26:05
not about one agency or one band.
26:06
This is something that's been an open secret in music last year.
26:09
You hear this about how burner accounts of, you know,
26:12
pretending to be fans posting about how great something is.
26:15
And it's all part of a marketing scheme.
26:17
But well, let me try this argument on you because I, I
26:22
feel like you're the person who'll cut through the bullshit.
26:24
This thing, there's this wave of articles saying geese are an
26:27
industry plant, which is a phrase I hate.
26:29
It's never said by anyone who knows anything about the music
26:31
industry actually works. But then another way of articles
26:34
going no, it's just marketing, deal with it.
26:35
This is how it works nowadays and that's what it boils down
26:39
to. Like to give a good artist a
26:41
chance to cut through, you've got to basically game the
26:45
algorithms on TikTok and streaming services until they
26:47
do. And it's almost like there's a a
26:50
necessity for good music is to do this stuff.
26:53
Yeah. Well, when that, I mean that is
26:56
that that is true. It's part of the game now.
26:58
And and you know, marketing has always been a huge part of the
27:01
music industry, isn't it? And it is part of the game.
27:03
But as you say, it's not just one company and it's not just
27:06
one band. So there's two things here.
27:09
Sometimes that won't work. Sometimes, despite putting, you
27:14
know, despite managing to get your song into the algorithm in
27:18
front of actual human beings, sometimes it won't work because
27:22
that. Bands of shit song, no one's
27:23
going to like it. Yeah, the bands on the bands on
27:25
any the band aren't any good. So that's one thing.
27:28
The second thing is why pick on geese?
27:31
Why geese I? Think that one of those bands of
27:34
people have been I'm I'm just jonesing for a chance to kind of
27:37
be rude about where they've become popular and people get
27:40
across. But it's do you know?
27:42
What you see, No, stop there. That's exactly the point,
27:45
though, isn't it, that they've become that, that they've become
27:48
popular and it doesn't matter in some people's eyes how how long
27:52
they've been at this. It's the fact that they've they
27:54
seem to disproportionately have become big in a reasonably, you
28:00
know, short space of time. I mean, their trajectory has
28:04
happened over a short space of time.
28:05
Not they've been together for a short space of time.
28:08
But you know, all of a sudden and it's like, well, I don't
28:11
like that, you know, I mean, it's just it's it's that
28:14
classic, isn't it all Look, this band has had an overnight is is
28:16
an overnight success. Can't be because they've had a
28:19
couple of breaks and people like their music.
28:21
It must be the result of nefarious music business
28:23
marketing strategy caught up. I mean, really what we is that
28:28
where we are? I mean, I'm not even I don't
28:30
mind geese. I'm not a huge fan of geese
28:32
because that the sort of music the geese make.
28:36
You know, I've done my time with that kind of music.
28:39
You know, I've been through that phase, but fair, you know, fair
28:42
place. And they are very popular.
28:44
But also it's that I mean, it's not that they've given up on
28:48
trad marketing either because every Wednesday I take my
28:52
daughter to an acting class in Angel Angel tube.
28:57
Honestly, no word of life. 6 geese posters, old fashioned
29:01
geese posters on the tube. And, and I was thinking about
29:05
this because here's, here's another reason why, why
29:09
something like this gathers momentum.
29:11
If the Geese record does slightly better than expected,
29:15
people will go. This record seems to be
29:18
connecting. Also, we have sold X amount of
29:21
copies. So we will reinvest some of the
29:25
money we've made from that X amount of copies and do some
29:28
more marketing. This is what I mean.
29:30
It's 30 years ago, but it's still, I'm sure in a way still
29:33
makes sense today. When when we released the
29:35
Elastica album, it did really well first week, but we'd
29:38
already made a commitment, the label and the management that
29:43
there would be, as the sales reached, you know, reached a
29:48
certain level, we would then take a proportion of that money
29:52
and do another wave of marketing.
29:54
And of course that next wave of marketing meant the record sold
29:57
more, which meant we could take more money and do a third wave
30:00
of marketing. So then each time, each step of
30:03
the way you are getting to a new audience and you're getting
30:07
bigger and bigger and bigger. And if Geese have done a similar
30:09
sort of thing, we will do X amount of marketing and
30:14
promotion for this record then, and it's done all right, then
30:19
we'll do another wave and it gets to a certain level and we
30:22
do that again. And it, I mean, similarly I
30:25
think it's what Ireland Records did with Last Dinner Party.
30:29
And eventually you see posters on the tube and you know they're
30:32
doing more stuff because there was money to reinvest because
30:35
the album had done all right. And that it's just self
30:38
perpetuating a record doing well.
30:41
It's success leads to more success.
30:44
Yeah, and it's kind of in one sense, it's kind of, it's kind
30:47
of slightly refreshing, although not at all to see the word
30:50
industry plant being used for a band of blokes, mostly blokes,
30:53
because it used to be quite a sexist inside.
30:55
It was, it was like last dinner party.
30:56
Got it. Picture Parlour, got it.
30:58
It was always like, oh, there's a band of women who've become
31:00
popular. They must be an industry plant.
31:03
That's some people's attitudes. And now at least it's some
31:04
blokes getting their, their thing.
31:06
But I mean, the other thing, the other thing I had in my mind was
31:09
like, like, if this is about just doing what you have to, to
31:13
get something chance to cut through.
31:15
I feel like it just shines a spotlight on the industry's
31:17
relationship with social media. And, and in a way, I feel like
31:20
it's a problem the industry created for itself.
31:22
So do you remember two years ago, there was this rash of
31:24
stories of, of artists going. My label told me they won't
31:27
release my new single until I make it go viral on Tiktok.
31:31
And that was back at those times when labels were going, yeah,
31:33
it's got to go viral, otherwise there's no point in releasing
31:35
it. And lo and behold, a couple of
31:38
years later, there are companies that will help your song go
31:40
viral on TikTok by any means necessary.
31:43
I feel like almost the industry created this environment for
31:46
itself. You know, it's, it's and it's
31:48
now reaping these results. But there was a good, there was
31:51
a good article consequence of Sound wrote a response to the,
31:53
the kind of the, the stuff about geese.
31:57
And so I want to read it out because it's good.
31:58
I don't want to see what you think of it.
32:00
Blaming geese for hiring a TikTok marketing firm is like
32:03
blaming a cereal brand for paying for shelf space at high
32:06
level. Every supermarket charges for
32:08
placement and it means the brand with less money ends up on the
32:11
bottom shelf. That's a legitimate problem, but
32:14
the answer is to fix how shelves work, not accused Cheerios of
32:18
fraud. And I thought that was just a
32:20
really interesting encapsulation like of this is what this is,
32:23
what the issue is, that if we're at a point where you have to
32:27
manipulate Tik Tok's algorithm to get a band a chance to cut
32:30
through, then that's the problem.
32:33
It's not the band that's the problem with the agency.
32:35
It's the this is how things work.
32:37
And maybe we're not happy with that.
32:38
And let's talk about that. I've just now in my head, I
32:41
can't, I can't get over, I can't get past bands as brands of
32:46
cereal If geese, If geese are Cheerios.
32:51
So a compilation album is variety pack I guess.
32:55
Yeah, anyway. Let's put it.
32:58
On there's nothing. There's nothing that's a dead
33:01
end. There's nothing, but there's
33:02
nothing down the alleyway. Can I leave you on a
33:04
dysfunctional like dystopian existential note here though?
33:09
So these tactics are currently being used to make human man's
33:11
like geese trend. What happens when someone starts
33:14
using them to make AI music trend?
33:16
Like. That's, that's what's next.
33:18
And that that's where the media's got a problem when
33:21
someone is pumping AI music into Tik Tok's algorithm and human
33:24
bands aren't even getting that chance to breakthrough.
33:26
And then we'll be we'll have problems then.
33:29
Thanks for that. Happy, happy, Yeah.
33:31
Happy Wednesday everyone. Thanks.
33:33
Thanks. Let's get to the end finally,
33:37
are you, are you in the market for a Pink Panther scrunchie or
33:40
colour block bangle? Well, we've got some very good
33:43
news for you. If so, and it's about online
33:45
shopping site at sea. Yeah.
33:49
Have you used that too much? Like should I explain that?
33:52
I mean I I have used Etsy. Is it fair to know?
33:56
It's like it's like eBay but more focused on kind of craft
33:58
and handmade stuff and nice things, isn't it?
34:00
Rather than. Yeah, yeah, my, my friend, my
34:03
friend Tom's mum swears by it and all her knitwear that she
34:06
sells on it. Yeah, it's it's the place where
34:09
you go if you're if you're a creative person making stuff
34:11
yourself, it's a great place. And it's a place often where you
34:13
get a lot of art, the fan made merchandise, people making their
34:16
own Taylor Swift things, people, you know, unofficial stuff.
34:19
But now they've launched this festival shop on on the website.
34:23
It's with Pink Panthers and Laffy and Willow Avalon.
34:26
The three artists start and the idea was they teamed them up
34:29
with some of the best kind of makers on Etsy, some of the best
34:32
knitters and then the merch makers to make official stuff.
34:36
And so it's kind of it's scrunchies, it's crochet bags,
34:39
it's bandanas. The nice thing I thought was
34:41
it's not just about making T-shirts, it's about making
34:44
different things. And do you remember that merch
34:46
survey we talked about recently where it was like people want
34:48
fans want more than just a T-shirt nowadays.
34:50
This is sort of tapping into that and where they might have
34:53
gone to Etsy and gone something unofficial didn't get put any
34:56
money towards the artist. So all I'm saying here is when
34:59
the Black Rose Bobble hat drops, I'm going to buy 2 and I'll give
35:02
you one for Christmas so. We're all winners.
35:06
Thank you very much and thank you for listening.
35:09
We're out of time. If if you are enjoying the show,
35:12
please do spread the word. You can also support us via
35:14
Patreon. In fact, if you become a super
35:17
fan of the show, you get to join us for our weekly lock in where
35:22
you get to stay behind after hours for more of this kind of
35:26
stuff. You can gain access to that say
35:28
by becoming a super fan of the show at patreon.com/the Price of
35:32
Music. Or you can drop us an e-mail if
35:36
if there's anything you'd like explained about how the music
35:39
industry works or you've got any observations on the stories
35:42
we've covered, drop usalinethepriceofmusicpodcasts@gmail.com.
35:47
That's the price of music. podcasts@gmail.com.
35:50
There's so much obliged to you for listening.
35:53
We'll be back next week. Cheerio.