Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #63: Interview with Christopher Sutton, Accessibility Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #63: Interview with Christopher Sutton, Accessibility Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:13
Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA,
0:19
invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
0:22
Remarkable World Commentary.
0:24
Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
0:27
insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
0:31
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
0:35
especially kids with disabilities.
0:38
Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
0:42
dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
0:46
law graduate, and podcast commentator.
0:49
She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
0:53
skills, and expertise in access technology and information.
0:58
As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
1:02
she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:07
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
1:15
I am Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who
1:21
sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
1:28
I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
1:32
author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
1:38
You may know me from a few headline moments.
1:42
In November of 2010, I won the Landmark charter case that forced the Canadian
1:48
government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
1:54
not just to sighted ones.
1:56
And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
2:04
disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
2:10
And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
2:18
Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
2:26
When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio,
2:33
you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
2:37
producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
2:43
gadgets talk back in plain language.
2:47
Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
2:55
everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
3:03
policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
3:10
Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
3:15
let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a changemaker whose work is every bit as
3:23
remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
3:28
Christopher Sutton, I'd like to welcome you to my Remarkable World Commentary.
3:34
Welcome.
3:36
Christopher Sutton: Thank you. Donna, it's such a pleasure to be here. And thank you for your your invitation
3:42
today. And really, it was such a pleasure to hear about your background and your
3:46
experience because you have done such remarkable things for Canadians across the
3:52
country. And I want to thank you for that.
3:54
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. Now we met.
3:57
When did we meet? We met in 2024, I believe,
4:02
at the Air Canada Advisory Committee meeting in Toronto.
4:08
I believe we did.
4:09
Christopher Sutton: Donna, I think we were late before that.
4:12
I think we met each other at circles in in Gatineau,
4:16
Quebec, working on Elections Canada stuff.
4:19
But we have reconnected.
4:22
Yeah.
4:23
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I do apologize. We did meet through Elections Canada.
4:28
That's right, I apologize.
4:29
I'm sorry.
4:32
Christopher Sutton: So no need to apologize.
4:34
Donna, you meet with so many people each day.
4:37
But I remember working together with you at Elections Canada and some really great stuff.
4:42
And just hearing about the insights and the and the perspective that you brought to the
4:48
table and, and the community that you brought to the table.
4:52
So really been able to follow and work with you over the years and know that we're making
4:58
a difference in our respective places in the world.
5:02
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I do remember and I enjoyed working with you then,
5:05
and I was kind of sorry to see you leave the Air Canada Committee,
5:08
but you got bigger things to do now.
5:11
And we're looking forward to having you you know,
5:15
continue to make a difference.
5:17
So let's get started. And to begin, which experiences from growing up with
5:25
hearing loss and receiving a cochlear implant in 2008,
5:32
most shaped your leadership style and how do they guide your decision as accessibility
5:42
commissioner today?
5:46
Christopher Sutton: Well, thank you for that question, Donna. And I,
5:48
I think there are many things that I could talk about here as an individual.
5:55
I grew up in a very small and isolated community,
5:58
and when people meet me, they're often surprised learning about my
6:01
story. Like all of our stories, we're we have very unique journeys.
6:06
And those journeys helped shape us to who we are today.
6:09
I was a born and put in foster care.
6:14
I was in foster care for many years before I was adopted.
6:18
I don't have much memory of that point, and I don't actually have a lot of memory
6:22
until I was a little bit older of a child.
6:25
But I will talk about how, as a child, remembering there was no one else
6:31
like me, that I was alone.
6:34
I didn't see other people with hearing aids or or that had support.
6:40
I grew up in a very, very small, isolated community,
6:44
but at the same time, I remember that being in an isolated
6:49
community, I was afforded a lot of privilege as well.
6:53
I had a great support.
6:56
My, my my parents, especially my mother, really,
7:00
really encouraged me to be the full individual that I was meant to be.
7:06
When people talked about, oh, that's a barrier,
7:09
Christopher can't do that because Christopher's deaf or or or people struggle
7:15
to understand who I was.
7:18
My parents always instilled that you will do whatever you want to do and even higher.
7:24
So when I was young, I wanted to be an anchor on TV,
7:27
and I remember marching up to the to the, to the community channel newsroom,
7:33
and they had a call up for anchors and people to volunteer on the community channel,
7:39
and I love. I'm fascinated by current events.
7:43
I love news, I love media, and really having the opportunity to be a
7:49
part of that was so exciting.
7:51
But I remember my mom telling me that her friend who ran the community channel called
7:56
her and said, Christopher can't do this.
8:00
He stopped. He was able to read the news.
8:03
He won't be able to hear an interview story.
8:06
He won't be able to do all this stuff.
8:08
Maybe we can have him, like, work in the background and help with
8:11
editing and stuff like that.
8:13
And my mom said, but you know, Christopher, you know that he wants to be in
8:19
front of the camera. He's going to be in front of the camera. And soon enough,
8:22
Donna, I was in front of the camera, not one night a week,
8:26
but three nights a week.
8:29
But you know something, Donna?
8:31
That wasn't the only circumstance where I had to break down barriers to show that people
8:36
with a disability can do whatever they do.
8:39
In my circumstance, the only thing I couldn't do was here was often being told I had
8:46
labels, and because of those labels, I had to fit it to a category.
8:52
I was deaf, so I wasn't going to be able to read.
8:55
I wasn't going to graduate from high school or even junior high school.
8:59
The occupations that were set out for me were these occupations and I was fired.
9:05
I wanted to be an entrepreneur.
9:07
I wanted to own a hotel to I wanted to be a chef.
9:11
I wanted to all these other things.
9:13
And people kept saying, no, no, no, no.
9:17
But each time a no came, I crossed that bridge and sometimes crossed
9:22
it a little bit further.
9:24
And I have to say, the nose and the you can't,
9:28
you can't give me the strength and the courage and and all those people that
9:32
supported me to really get to where I am today.
9:35
So I have to say, what really inspires me is Wanting to be able to make sure that the
9:44
other little Christopher's, the other little Donna's,
9:47
the other little Michael's and Jane's and Paul's don't grow up with the same barriers,
9:53
don't grow up not having having role models and and people they can look up to,
9:59
and people that have paved the way so that they can have a better,
10:02
better life. I really want to people and people with disabilities,
10:07
especially to feel connected, to see themselves as part of the change.
10:12
And I really, really, really want to make sure people are not
10:15
isolated and alone. And that really has been a driving force,
10:19
force behind the work that I do and my passions that that get me up each day.
10:25
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is great.
10:27
You know, I, I couldn't agree more.
10:29
I really couldn't. So you earned a BA from.
10:34
And I hope I'm having this pronounced correctly.
10:38
Gallaudet. That.
10:40
Christopher Sutton: Gallaudet. Gallaudet depends from.
10:44
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. And an MBA from Ivy along with governance training.
10:51
How did that mix of education prepare you for policy oversight and enforcement at the
11:00
Canadian Human Rights Commission?
11:04
Christopher Sutton: Yeah, that's a really another great question,
11:06
Donna. And I think as I just shared with you,
11:09
I've always been very headstrong and I had real ambition and goals.
11:13
And as I said, I'm very lucky that my parents raised me to believe that barriers could be
11:18
overcome and that anything is possible if I work hard and I apply myself and I and I am a
11:24
believer and firm believer.
11:26
Continuous ongoing education I currently just finished up some some training on mediation
11:32
and other things because I believe that we can never stop learning,
11:37
and learning is as a responsibility we have to ourselves.
11:40
So whether it was my dream of being a news anchor or or just being a journalist,
11:46
making a difference in people's lives was something that I really wanted to do and
11:51
something that drives me each day.
11:54
I've been very fortunate.
11:55
I know as a person with a disability, and to be able to have the career that I have
12:02
today. I know that so many of my friends and colleagues have not had the same benefits.
12:07
They've not been able to get the same educational experience or,
12:12
or, or educational opportunities.
12:14
And I've been very privileged and I and I think those,
12:18
those role models, I think those those sponsors and so many people that put faith in
12:25
me and encourage me because that encouragement is what led me to be here.
12:30
But right now, in this role, one of the things I'd like most is to be a
12:36
bridge for people, bringing people together to figure out how we can achieve a more
12:41
accessible Canada together.
12:43
Donna, you know, from our work together, I love to have dialogues.
12:47
I love to bring organizations together, bring people together.
12:52
I like to look at the big picture.
12:54
I like to say, okay, this is the barriers we're facing today,
12:58
but how can we break down those barriers?
13:01
How can we tap into the different challenges,
13:04
different expertise and experience of individuals?
13:07
I'm very passionate about public policy.
13:11
Very passionate about system designs and organization and management.
13:15
But I'm also very passionate about the lived experiences and and the different barriers
13:21
that we face each day and how we can come together to really put a human element and a
13:27
human centric side of it to really make people's lives better.
13:32
So I'd like to say, like, I went to Ivy Business School,
13:35
one of the best business schools in the world.
13:37
I've done some fantastic governance programs and,
13:40
you know. Very, very few people at my time in those programs identified with any of the
13:48
diversity that I talk about in myself, like coming from a small,
13:53
isolated community working in a not for profit sector being an individual with,
13:59
with a disability. And in these organizations and these programs,
14:04
I went these are full of executives from the large banking sectors,
14:08
from from media, from, from many different organizations.
14:13
And often I was the first person they met in a leadership role that understood the
14:19
language they spoke, but also had a disability.
14:23
So I often was able to talk about how diversity,
14:26
inclusion and accessibility should be and must be understood in the broader business
14:31
and policy context. And I think my, my colleagues in those programs really
14:36
appreciate that. They really appreciated that.
14:39
They got to know an individual.
14:41
They got to know firsthand about the barriers that I experience and how we how we work
14:47
together to overcome some of those barriers.
14:50
And I made some awesome friendships, and I and I know that I've really been able
14:55
to help influence how people see people with disabilities.
14:59
But also at the same time, I've also led organizations and businesses
15:03
myself, and I understand firsthand the realities and pressures that come with
15:07
running a business, managing people, and implementing compliance.
15:12
And that experience really has helped me translate policy goals into practical,
15:16
workable approaches. And the realities that that organizations must deal with when we're
15:23
looking at the Accessible Canada Act or other regulations out there.
15:26
So I think I've been very fortunate to be able to have this academic training,
15:31
this global exposure and real world leadership experience has given me a unique
15:36
perspective. How I can help move this file at the Human Rights Commission and my work as a
15:45
commissioner at the Commission.
15:47
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is terrific, really.
15:51
Now, you took the helm at Wavefront Center on April 1st,
15:56
2020, right as the pandemic began.
16:02
What did that chapter teach you about resilience,
16:07
accessible communication and service continuity that you are applying at the core?
16:18
Christopher Sutton: So, Donna, it feels like hundreds to hundreds of years ago.
16:22
But you remember just six years ago, five, six years ago,
16:28
we were hearing about this coronavirus.
16:31
We were hearing about about this disease or illness that was going around and people were
16:38
getting sick. And it's hard to believe it's only been five years,
16:43
and we've gone through a profound, profound amount of global changes since.
16:49
But a lot of people don't realize on the day the global shutdowns happened,
16:54
I actually was moving from Ottawa to Vancouver to start a new role.
17:00
I actually was supposed to start the role a little bit later,
17:04
but because of the shutdowns, the board of directors said,
17:07
we really need someone to come in with the leadership,
17:10
with the ability to handle these complex situations,
17:14
to help guide us and our business through this time.
17:18
So I just moved across the country, joined a completely new organization,
17:23
knowing no one in this city and suddenly finding myself navigating a landscape where
17:28
conditions change daily and sometimes by the hour.
17:34
Leading to that amount of uncertainty taught me what real resilience looks like.
17:40
Staying focused on people making decisions quickly yet compassionately,
17:45
and creating stability in an environment where,
17:48
frankly, there was no stability.
17:51
Waypoint center was named an essential service by the Government of British
17:55
Columbia. It provided essential services like sign language interpreting,
17:59
audiology, employment services, deafblind intervener services.
18:03
There are so many programs and services, and one of the other things that provided was
18:07
connectivity. It brought connectivity to a community that was already isolated,
18:12
that already faced so many barriers and really had to bring the human element to the
18:20
front and center. Not only were we dealing with uncertainties in the world.
18:26
The team that I had to leave were coming in and supporting people that depended on us for
18:31
communication access, health services and community connection.
18:35
And I had to lead through constant change while ensuring the staff supported safe and
18:40
valued, but also ensuring that the services to clients relied on each and every day.
18:48
As a situation, change was there for them that when they needed an interpreter,
18:54
there was an interpreter at that medical appointment, when they needed to excuse me,
19:01
when they needed an audiologist to fix their hearing aid,
19:06
or for some people, because they needed to attend a funeral of a loved one that passed
19:11
away from from Covid 19, we were there for them.
19:15
But also at the same time, accessible communication became a defining
19:20
lesson in those early days.
19:22
Public health information was not accessible.
19:26
It was not accessible in sign language.
19:28
Captioning was very poor and and so many communities missed out on life altering and
19:35
life saving information that was being provided.
19:38
We had to change that.
19:40
And I and I was so fortunate.
19:42
I reached out to contacts, whether they were in the Prime Minister's
19:46
office or broadcasters, and really brought forward educating
19:50
governments, media and other organizations about the importance of accessible
19:54
communication. And that really has changed.
19:57
What we see now is more global, widespread acceptance of ASL interpretation
20:02
or lsq interpretation and other accessibility features that we see.
20:07
Screen Reader: Notification from.
20:08
Christopher Sutton: During during emergencies and other times.
20:12
But if you go to other places in the world, you actually see these for cooking shows and
20:17
whatnot.
20:18
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah.
20:20
Christopher Sutton: But we also had to build new partnerships. So we had to look at the programs and services
20:24
that we traditionally delivered, and we had to offer new ones.
20:27
The community and the world we lived in was changing,
20:31
and it was so important that we designed our program so that our community was connected,
20:37
so that businesses were able to provide accessible information so that government had
20:43
a service provider to turn to.
20:45
So it really why it was.
20:50
A very difficult point for us.
20:52
It also allowed the organization to become much more stronger and sustainable and create
20:57
a national name for itself.
20:59
So I take all these lessons each and every day in my work at the HRC.
21:03
They shape how I approach policy oversight, accessibility with a deep understanding of
21:08
what communities need in real time, how essential clear communication is,
21:13
and how important it is to lead with both humility and decisiveness.
21:18
Suppress.
21:20
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear it in your voice.
21:23
The passion. You know we need.
21:26
We need this type of passion, this type of leadership.
21:28
If we and I say we, I mean, our communities are,
21:34
you know, expected to move forward because these are difficult times and the landscape
21:39
is changing dramatically every single day.
21:43
Christopher Sutton: It is, it is.
21:44
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So wave of friends headquarters achieved Rick Hansen Foundation accessibility
21:55
certified goal within 96 out of 100.
22:01
Which design choices made the biggest difference?
22:07
And how should large federal entities translate this lesson into their own
22:15
buildings?
22:17
Christopher Sutton: Yeah, I am very proud of the work that and that we've done.
22:22
And I actually have to say like when I, when I was being headhunted and recruited to
22:29
take on the role of CEO at Wavefront Centre, it was moving to,
22:33
like I said, an area that I never set foot in.
22:36
Like I've been to Vancouver maybe twice in my life,
22:39
and I've always called myself an East Coast type of person.
22:43
You know, I like the the faster pace of life in the East Coast.
22:47
My friends were here, my family were here.
22:49
But I was inspired by the bold action that the board of directors and the staff and the
22:57
community wanted to make, like Waypoint Center's head office was very
23:02
carefully and intentionally designed to ensure that it was the highest rating
23:07
accessible building in North America. They didn't set out on the goal that,
23:11
oh, we want to get this rating.
23:13
We set on the goal of saying, this is what our communities need.
23:17
Our communities need this so that they can be in a fully inclusive environment where it
23:23
doesn't matter if you're you're a person with a disability,
23:25
if you're someone that's aging, whether you're a person with vision loss or
23:30
hearing loss or deafness, whether you're someone that that is short,
23:36
whether you're a child.
23:38
They want the organization and its purpose built facility to be completely barrier free
23:45
and to be a model. Frankly, I, I've gone to so many presentations over
23:51
the years where I would meet with architects,
23:53
would meet with designers, meet with banks, meet with other
23:56
organizations, and say.
24:00
If Wavefront Center could do this, a small, little,
24:02
tiny, not for profit organization regionally and in Vancouver,
24:07
and they were able to make the investments to include the community,
24:11
to look at design practices to look at best practice from the CSA,
24:16
from the building code, from.
24:19
From what we've saw in other jurisdictions like at Gallaudet and took those standards
24:25
and elevated them even higher.
24:29
If we can do it, anyone should be able to do it.
24:33
There is no excuse that a regulated entity that has millions and billions of dollars of
24:38
profit cannot do the same.
24:41
There's no excuse whatsoever.
24:44
They also have to say the success of the project came from involving people with lived
24:48
experience directly in the design process, in the build process,
24:53
in every decision around acoustics, lighting,
24:56
wayfinding, everything was shaped by the real needs of individuals and not by the
25:01
assumptions and not necessarily by the professionals and and individuals who would
25:06
say, well, this is what this group needs, but was actually connecting with people with
25:10
lived experience to understand those experiences firsthand.
25:15
Obviously, Waypoint Center serves people that are deaf,
25:18
blind, and hard of hearing. So acoustics became a major role.
25:22
We wanted to make sure for individuals that were deaf,
25:25
there was a lot of ability to be able to communicate with using sign language.
25:29
So a lot of glass, a lot of open spaces, spaces that were called deaf friendly,
25:35
where you can move freely and not have to worry about hitting someone.
25:39
We also want to make sure that people that use hearing aid and other technologies,
25:44
that oral cast and and loops and, and systems built in place.
25:49
So no matter where you were, you were able to listen without barriers.
25:54
We also have the HVAC system in the building,
25:58
what normally is around 75 to 80dB in most office settings,
26:02
reduced to 35 to 40dB, which means a person that was hearing that
26:07
does not have a hearing loss could actually be more comfortable in the environment.
26:12
But someone like myself that uses technology didn't have the interference of the
26:16
background noise constantly.
26:20
Donna, I can go on and on and on about this.
26:23
And if any of your viewers are in Vancouver, I.
26:26
I highly encourage you to reach out to a front center.
26:30
They would be happy to give you a tour of their presentations.
26:33
If you go to their website, they have diagrams.
26:35
So there's so much, so much effort and pride put into that organization.
26:41
But some of the key lessons, because you ask about key lessons that I
26:46
would provide large federal entities, is that accessibility must be integrated from
26:51
the onset, every stage, from early planning stages,
26:55
right up to the design to the implementation,
26:59
to the opening. But you also have to be willing to adapt when when the building
27:04
opens, there's going to be flaws, there's going to be things that need to
27:07
change and code change as well.
27:09
When Waypoint Center opened its head office, head office in the newer locations we've
27:15
opened since then, we've taken feedback we've received from the community to make sure
27:20
those new facilities were even much more accessible.
27:24
I would also say an important takeaway is accessibility features benefit everyone
27:29
better. Q6 good lighting, barrier free circulation,
27:32
clear communication systems experiences not only for the clients,
27:37
but for the staff, for visitors, for everyone,
27:41
so that they can have a barrier free, barrier free experience.
27:46
And as I said, I really think the most important lesson is forward thinking at all
27:53
levels of an organization.
27:55
You need your leaders. You need your board.
27:57
You can't just have frontline staff pushing this.
28:01
You need people at every organization championing accessibility,
28:05
Championing these best practices.
28:06
Because if you don't, we're not going to get the change that we
28:09
need to drive that lasting change.
28:12
So I have to say, there's so much we can do together.
28:16
And wavefront took a dream and they made it into a reality as they knew the benefits
28:23
would have far greater rewards than just meeting this,
28:27
this wonderful recognition of being the most rated facility in North America,
28:33
but just being a place where you would see the smiles of families,
28:37
hearing stories of people being able to enjoy the facility and go to any facility that they
28:44
weren't able to go to and the experience they had there.
28:49
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It must have been difficult for you to leave wavefront and assume your new role.
28:54
Was it?
28:55
Christopher Sutton: Well, Donna, I have to say, like I, I'm a person that likes challenge,
29:00
like, you know, as an ambitious A-type personality and as an individual like,
29:07
I really appreciated my time at Wavefront Center.
29:09
It gave me so many lessons, so many teachings,
29:14
and it really it really gave me the experience I needed for myself to be where I
29:22
am today. But at the same time, I know that I've been recognized and I and I
29:29
recognize for being able to bring people together,
29:31
bringing organizations together, and really to be able to have some of those
29:35
difficult dialogues. And I'm not scared to have difficult conversations and I and coming
29:41
to the commission while leaving that beautiful facility that was so barrier free.
29:46
It's been a fantastic experience here.
29:48
When I was onboarding, they asked me what I needed.
29:52
They asked me what technology I needed to support me,
29:57
how how I need to be engaged in decisions and everything I've said.
30:04
They made. Made. They made happen.
30:06
And I have to say, they've been a fantastic organization.
30:09
And I don't I wish every Canadian could see the work that's done here,
30:13
because the work sometimes is quite slow.
30:16
But the impact and the progress that is happening to impact the lives of every
30:20
individual in this country is just astonishing.
30:23
And and I really think the, the open arms and,
30:28
and my colleagues here because they've been fantastic and it's really made up for some of
30:33
the things that I miss that waypoint centre.
30:35
But the people and and just really being leaders and making sure that my experience
30:42
has been positive has been really, really fantastic.
30:49
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You shared British Columbia's accessible, accessible services delivery
30:59
Every standard committee which elements of that standard map most directly to national
31:10
expectations under the under the Accessible Canada Act.
31:18
Christopher Sutton: Donna, you know what I like you I was I was one of those individuals and organizations
31:25
that worked hard to ensure the Accessible Canada Act was,
31:29
was passed and made, made into regulations and and received Royal assent and spent many
31:37
years advocating for, for for this this wonderful piece of this
31:44
wonderful piece of legislation that really was groundbreaking.
31:49
It created like this foundation and built something so that we can move forward with it
31:56
and move forward with the times, Unlike other jurisdictions where they have
31:59
thousands and thousands and thousands of pages.
32:02
Thy shall, thy shall not.
32:04
Da da da da da. We're actually able to build regulations that meet the times of today.
32:12
One of the things that really inspired me after the passage of the Accessible Canada
32:16
Act is that other jurisdictions like British Columbia,
32:21
Manitoba other provinces quickly adopted their own accessibility legislation.
32:28
And they really looked at this at the, at the principle of the Accessible Canada
32:33
Act. Nothing without us.
32:35
And I really think that that accessibility legislation was groundbreaking because it
32:41
opened the minds that opened the ears and really open the hearts of our communities.
32:47
And Canadians didn't want to sit back and say,
32:50
no, we this is not a priority.
32:53
It was a priority and it is a priority.
32:56
So you know what? Like being a part of the work in British Columbia was very,
33:01
very inspiring. They have a fantastic team that works at the Accessibility Directorate.
33:05
They're a very small but mighty team.
33:08
And and they did things differently than I was used to doing in Ontario or even at
33:14
Accessibility Standards Canada.
33:16
And the way they involve the community and building up and building their standards.
33:21
And the consultation and feedback has been incredible.
33:25
Like I have to say, the work that was put on the feedback process of the service delivery
33:31
standard and the amount of feedback they got back was incredible.
33:37
I would also just say the BC drop standard and the Accessible Canada Act emphasize
33:42
barrier free access to information and communication.
33:45
That means that ensuring that our websites, documents,
33:48
customer service channels are accessible in formats that people with diverse abilities
33:53
can use, whether it's plain language, screen reader compatibility captioning,
33:57
or sign language interpretation.
33:59
There's also a strong focus on training and culture change.
34:03
The Accessible Canada Act requires federally regulated organizations to build
34:07
accessibility into their operations, and the BC draft standard references that by
34:13
requiring staff to be trained in disability awareness,
34:16
inclusive service delivery, and that's not about just putting a new
34:21
policy out there in your HR handbook.
34:24
That's about accessibility into everyday practice and not treating as an afterthought.
34:30
And Donna, you and I both know when we embed accessibility intentionally into something,
34:37
it benefits everyone. And I also think that both the the provincial legislation,
34:44
the federal approaches recognize that accessibility is about designing and
34:48
co-designing with the disability community at each and every step.
34:53
We need to make sure that the community is involved with this process,
34:56
and the experience of people with live, diverse experiences is what's going to change
35:03
and really push the change that we need in this country to make sure that we're barrier
35:08
free, whether it's 2040, 2025, 2050.
35:12
But those are just timelines and dates.
35:14
It's making the change that we need today so that the future will be barrier free.
35:21
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess we got to keep pushing for more people to be convinced that accessibility is
35:28
simply not a nice to have.
35:30
It is a must. It is it.
35:32
It benefits not just our community benefits everybody.
35:36
Right.
35:38
Christopher Sutton: Yeah. Like when I think of like I saw a commercial not too long ago,
35:42
I don't know if it was a new commercial or something relatively older,
35:46
but I just remember like how, how it showed how,
35:50
what we would just say is simply as a door opener that was built and designed for a
35:55
person with a mobility device, how it helps the package delivery driver,
36:01
how it helps a parent with a child in a in a in a stroller,
36:07
how it helps someone that's using a bike or someone with a temporary disability,
36:12
something that was designed for our community has created tremendous benefit for all.
36:18
I don't know how many times I go to a building,
36:21
and I actually just see someone hitting that button.
36:23
I actually never intentionally hit the button to open the open the accessible door or the
36:29
kick the door open, because I'm always worried that I might be the one that breaks
36:32
it. Yeah, the one that really needs it won't be able to use it,
36:35
but it's it's just people really have come, I don't want to say dependent on it,
36:41
but it's just become the norm for people.
36:47
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who may not know the structure,
36:52
what is the Accessibility Commissioner's mandate inside the Canadian Human Rights
37:00
Commission, and how does it interact with the traditional human rights complaints process?
37:10
Christopher Sutton: Yeah, Donna, that's actually another excellent question.
37:14
You know what the the Accessible Canada Act brought three new separate organizations or
37:22
individuals into the accessibility thing.
37:25
We have the accessible the Accessibility Standards Canada,
37:28
and they work on developing standards.
37:31
We have the chief accessibility officer who is advising the minister on issues related to
37:36
accessibility and keeping a pulse of the community.
37:39
And then you have the accessibility commissioner,
37:42
who really is my responsibility is to ensure compliance of the regulations and enforcement
37:49
of them. And and it wasn't a mistake that they chose to house the accessibility Office
37:58
of the Accessibility Commissioner within the Canadian Human Rights Commission.
38:02
The Commission has a broad mandate to promote and to protect the human rights,
38:06
including disability rights.
38:08
In addition to being an accessibility commissioner, I'm also a member of the. See,
38:12
a lot of people don't know that I get to wear two hats.
38:15
I wear 4 or 5, but at the commission I wear two hats.
38:19
I'm a full time member of the commission and can and render decisions and hear about human
38:25
rights complaints and barriers and and also the accessibility Commissioner and many of
38:33
your listeners. And you, Donna, know that the HRC has a mandate to
38:38
deal with complaints of discriminations in federal jurisdictions Historically,
38:45
those complaints have been mostly around disability issues.
38:53
And as the Accessibility Commissioner, I am excited to work alongside my colleagues
38:56
at the Commission to help move us from being a reactive,
39:00
complaint based system to a human rights system that's proactive as well.
39:06
So what's different about underneath the Accessible Canada Act is that we are actively
39:11
out there working with federally regulated organizations and asking them to be
39:16
proactive. What are the barriers in your places of work?
39:20
What are the barriers for your employers?
39:22
What are the barriers for your clients so that they can proactively address them so
39:30
that we don't even get to a stage where we actually have complaints,
39:34
because organizations will be identifying and addressing the barriers and and solving those
39:41
barriers Years before an individual has to come and follow a complaint.
39:48
Since since the Accessible Canada Act has come into force,
39:52
there's been a lot of work going on at the commission.
39:54
This was a very new mandate, and it was a very new shift for the
39:58
Commission. The commission was used to getting complaints that were reactive.
40:05
We had to build a team.
40:07
My team has had to work closely to ensure federally regulated organizations in Canada
40:11
know about their obligations under the Accessible Canada Act and its regulations.
40:17
We've had to meet with community and advocates to learn about their experience,
40:21
to take that back, to inform our work, and we developed a wide range of compliance
40:27
and enforcement tools.
40:28
That includes a mechanism to deal with complaints if necessary.
40:32
So the last several years has been so much activity going on at the commission to build
40:38
this program so that we can be active and we can be ready to take complaints.
40:44
But we don't necessarily want complaints.
40:47
We really want to make sure that organizations identify the barriers and
40:51
identify how to create solutions to overcome those barriers,
40:56
so that we can live in communities and can live,
41:00
and hopefully our grandchildren and great grandchildren can look back and never
41:04
understand the word barrier, because it's never existed for them.
41:10
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess we're in Two Hats for you is quite an interesting I wouldn't say
41:15
challenge, but adventure, would you say?
41:22
Christopher Sutton: Well, I would say. An appreciation.
41:28
Because you know what?
41:32
As I mentioned, the some of the largest number of complaints we get are based on
41:38
disability and being the accessibility commissioner,
41:41
I get to work with organisations to make sure we can identify those barriers and make sure
41:47
that they're not barriers.
41:48
But I guess get to also where that other side,
41:52
where I can hear the complaints and the discrimination that individuals faced and be
42:00
able to understand firsthand some of those complaints,
42:03
but not only just in accessibility and disability,
42:06
but also in the areas of race, sexual orientation and gender on,
42:10
on, on so many diverse issues and and people that know me know that I am passionate about
42:17
human rights. I'm passionate about all of these areas.
42:21
So I have to say, when I was appointed to this role and I found out a part of that
42:27
role, I can exercise the right to be also a full time member of the commission.
42:32
That was like the icing on the cake, Donna.
42:35
Like, I get to listen to accessibility stuff and champion change,
42:39
but I also get to be involved in another area that I'm very passionate about as well.
42:46
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can hear it in your voice, and, you know, I think we really need to
42:52
double down on all of this and we really need to,
42:56
you know, push more awareness, push the importance of this.
43:01
So, you know.
43:02
Christopher Sutton: And, you know, Donna, I you and I both know and you have a little
43:06
bit more experience than I have.
43:08
You've been a trailblazer and so many other my role models and and inspiration that that
43:15
make me excited, not only excited but give me the passion to get up each day so I can carry
43:21
the change and the torch that we've been doing this for years and years and years and
43:28
years, and we've been talking about the barriers and talking about the barriers.
43:31
We've been on this journey for a very long time,
43:34
and I don't want to excuse the federal entities or businesses,
43:38
but their journey is a little bit newer, and we need to make sure that they understand
43:43
firsthand about the barriers.
43:46
They need to include people with disabilities to understand about those barriers so they
43:50
can make the changes. But we have to work together.
43:53
We can't do this alone.
43:54
The disability community can't do this alone.
43:57
Governments can't do it alone.
43:59
Regulated entities can't do it alone.
44:01
Communities can't do it alone. We have to come together to do this together.
44:05
We cannot come from one side only.
44:09
And if we don't come together as a community working collaboratively,
44:13
we're going to continue to face these barriers.
44:15
So, Donna, your passionate advocacy, the work that I'm doing,
44:20
the work of so many of our colleagues each day is so critical.
44:24
But we also have to extend a little reach and include others because that's what's going to
44:30
drive that change.
44:33
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now the clock is winding down.
44:35
But I would like to ask you this question.
44:39
What words of wisdom do you have for the younger generation?
44:44
How can they continue in our footsteps?
44:47
How could we ensure that their future is a better future than what we've had?
44:53
What can we do? What can they do?
44:58
Christopher Sutton: You know, Donna, I, I think about that question often.
45:02
And you talked about being a role model and a mentor.
45:05
That's something that I, I aspire to and something that I've also
45:12
taken time to do. I think role models and and And
45:22
visibility is so important because we've been invisible for so long.
45:27
And I don't think the younger generation, generation Expect?
45:33
Or do they believe that they're going to be invisible?
45:35
They are not going to be invisible. They are. They are a force of change.
45:39
And I meet so many young people, and I listen to them on panels.
45:42
I meet and hear their stories, and they don't want to live with a status quo
45:46
that we live with. They are definitely making their change makers.
45:51
And there there are of course, not to reckon with,
45:54
but I would say there are many others that are the the more silent Christophers and the
46:00
more silent donnas and that are living in isolation.
46:05
I remember being in the library and spending a lot of time alone and being scared because
46:10
I was being bullied and not not oh gosh.
46:13
Yeah, I have to say some of the things that lessons I learned that I would carry on is
46:20
just building a strong network can make a real difference in your own journey.
46:25
Connect with people. Connect with people that are different than yourselves. Connect with
46:29
people that are from different political political spectrums.
46:33
Connect with people from different races, from different sexual orientations and
46:37
different experiences.
46:38
We need to keep our minds open.
46:40
We need to have a dialogue.
46:42
We need to continue our dialogue.
46:45
Make sure you also connect yourself with peers that understand what you're going
46:51
through, so they can encourage you and can lift you up.
46:55
I cannot stress enough about developing self-confidence,
47:00
and I was so fortunate that my parents never,
47:05
never, never let me hear the nos and the nays.
47:09
And when I heard that, they made sure that Christopher,
47:12
that is not a barrier and that will not be a barrier for you.
47:16
Developing self-confidence and self-advocacy is so essential.
47:21
I'm going to probably say something that's so popular, so some of the parents listening out
47:25
there, but we have so many helicopter parents.
47:27
And those helicopter parents are so protective of their their precious children.
47:32
And I totally get that.
47:34
But we also need to give our children the tools to be advocates.
47:38
We can't wait for a child to go to university,
47:41
or trade school, or community college, or even to a workplace,
47:46
and not being an advocate themselves.
47:48
They need to learn how to advocate for their for their technology,
47:52
for their accessibility, for their for the accommodations they need.
47:56
And their parents can't do it for them, frankly.
47:59
So why? That was probably not the most popular thing to say.
48:01
I hope your listeners that are parents also understand the importance of teaching their
48:07
child about self-advocacy.
48:10
They need to learn how to communicate.
48:12
And I don't mean communicate by speaking or signing.
48:17
I mean by learning to read, by understanding empathy,
48:20
understanding compassion, understanding body language.
48:24
And and really knowing that an accommodation is not a burden.
48:29
It's a right that enables you to bring your best foot forward.
48:34
And I think there are also moments when the paths feel harder,
48:41
when your perspective and you might question your contributions,
48:47
but realize that each and every step was worth it,
48:51
that you deserve to be at the table where every decision is made that impacts you.
48:58
You need to sharpen your communication skills and need to be open to new doors.
49:05
Need to be opening to educating others.
49:07
I don't think people honestly, I like to think the best in everyone,
49:11
and I don't think people intentionally want to go out there and and not allow me to have
49:17
the accessible communication I need, or intentionally are not going to
49:22
intentionally do things to put me at harm, but I think it's my responsibility to say I
49:31
am death and I need a, b c not say I am deaf and it's up for you to
49:38
figure it out what my needs are.
49:40
I need to be myself advocate and I think the younger generation,
49:44
they need to learn how to do that and I'm very confident they know how to do that. And
49:48
I also have to say, and I'm sorry that I'm making this question much longer,
49:52
but I'm reflecting as I think this.
49:54
But it's so important to get involved with community organizations,
49:57
with leadership programs, advisory groups.
50:00
Donna, you and I sat at so many of these tables,
50:03
and we see the same people every day.
50:05
Yes, that's great, but we need some new fresh faces at the table.
50:09
We do need new perspectives.
50:12
New opinions.
50:14
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
50:15
Christopher Sutton: New experiences. You know, like it's it's it's I'm not putting any
50:19
disrespect to the wonderful people that have led this,
50:23
led this charge. But we also need to understand the perspectives of younger
50:28
people. And also, I think you need to stay curious and embrace continuous learning that
50:34
will take you far. Learn about policy.
50:37
Learn about human rights. Learn about public service.
50:39
Learn about giving back.
50:41
Because you know what?
50:43
I've been given so much throughout my journey and and I'll share something.
50:50
When I was called into this position, this was not something that I just said,
50:58
oh yeah, this is an awesome job.
51:00
Wow. This is this is really cool.
51:03
But also for me, it was a service.
51:05
It was to give back to this country.
51:07
Like as a person that's deaf, I'm not able to serve in our military or
51:11
armed forces. I'm not able to do so many things and that's okay.
51:16
But this was my calling to make sure that I could come to the forefront at these very
51:20
critical times to make sure that I was able to bring voices to the table,
51:24
I'm able to ensure that accessibility and barriers and all that are still a part of the
51:30
very important conversations we're having today.
51:34
So I encourage public service, I encourage people to get involved,
51:38
and I encourage people to learn to reach out and to be and to be leaders.
51:46
And it's okay if if you look at people like yourself,
51:50
Donna or myself. And so I can't do that, that's too much.
51:55
That's not what I want to be.
51:56
But if you just can do it for yourself.
51:59
So for your young people listening out there,
52:01
I say to them that your unique experience is your greatest strength.
52:06
Your voice matters, your ideas are needed, and your lived experience is critical.
52:12
And without it, we can't make a powerful change.
52:17
So we're coming through exciting times right now for disability rights in Canada.
52:21
Change is happening and they got to be a part of that change.
52:25
So stay true to yourself and what you believe in.
52:29
And keep dreaming and dream big.
52:35
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Powerful words from a powerful changemaker.
52:38
And I want to thank you for having taken the time to be on our podcast here.
52:44
And, you know, if at any time you feel that you would like to come back and spread the
52:50
word and motivate the youngsters, please reach out to me,
52:56
let me know, and I would be pleased to have you back.
52:59
Yeah.
53:00
Christopher Sutton: Donna, this has been my pleasure.
53:01
I really enjoyed the last hour with you today.
53:04
And please never hesitate to reach out.
53:08
If you feel that I can bring my voice to your work and and to your listeners,
53:14
because I'm always happy to do so.
53:17
And Donna, thank you for all the work that you do each and every day.
53:20
I know it's not easy, and I know that sometimes we wake up and we
53:25
go, oh, why am I doing this?
53:27
But you know why you're doing it, Donna. And you're making a difference. So I
53:31
want to thank you for that.
53:33
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. I am honored, and I'm humbled that,
53:37
you know, to hear your comments.
53:39
Please come back again soon.
53:41
And thank you very much.
53:44
Christopher Sutton: Thank you. Donna, have a wonderful evening. And thank you to our listeners.
53:48
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Enjoy. Ottawa. Thank you.
53:51
Christopher Sutton: Bye bye.
53:52
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now.
53:53
Christopher Sutton: Safe travels.
53:54
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you.
53:58
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
54:04
Until next time.