Latest / Putting Is Fun / Blade Putters Are Disappearing | Ep. 7

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Blade Putters Are Disappearing | Ep. 7 · Putting Is Fun

• speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: John Ruder, you can find your center, be a straight shooter. Train yourself to respect the three-footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rolling pots will surely be fair. But butt butt, it's just like it seems. You can drift away and chill in a dream. But with your rose, we'll soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. Just spiddin facts, putting is fun. speaker-0: Y yes it is. Folks, Brian Manzella from New Orleans and speaker-1: I am John Ortega from Costa Mesa. We have a toasty eighty degree weather day here, which is super hot. speaker-0: Ninety eight on the driveway at the studio in the sky. Today's show is Trends. And we have just a guy here. We have Mr. Ortega. He should be able to answer a lot of these questions. If you're gonna have a putting podcast, you you gotta try to stay ahead of ⁓ what's going on. And I think ⁓ between the two of us, we probably do that okay, but doesn't mean anything if we don't share this with you. So we're gonna start with the fact that I looked at the stats, Johnny, and the mallets winning on tour versus non-mallets. I hate when they say blades and then people show an answer head, which is not a blade. But is this though we've talked about it before, but it the trend does not seem to be changing. Almost everybody has at least tried it and enough people are using that it's like twenty five wins to four or something like that for mallets versus non mallets. What says you about the mallet craze? speaker-1: First off, a lot of the mallets they they're either going with the with the grooves, which kind of helps with a lot of the ⁓ inconsistencies as far as like hitting the ball off the face. So the the pure roll technology like the Taylor maids or any of the ones that ⁓ have that as go going in their favor, or even the ⁓ Odyssey AIs, they grip the ball a certain way when they hit it and so it kinda helps with the initial roll and the it improves the ⁓ consistency of the skid phase generally. So I think that's a big ⁓ selling point. And then you the MI MOI, we talked about this previously. If you if you hit it off center on lag putts, you know, it's going to give you a better ⁓ consistent role as far as the speed is concerned, which will, you know, help you with your your direction, you know. So it's a b both of those things, you know, the improved hit and roll, you know, ⁓ getting through the skid phase, ⁓ normalizing that, and then also, you know, getting more out of the off center hit. So that's kind of the main thing. But also the ⁓ There there's like an aiming feature that also most of the ⁓ mallets have that they've they've been able to determine, you know, which kind of line system, line, no line, dot, dot on the line, all that. So they're getting a little bit more ⁓ advanced as far into being able to identify that. And and so there are more opportunities for you know, coming up with aiming systems on the mallets 'cause there's you a bigger surface. So speaker-0: Is there anything that could be done? So it sounds sounds like it's it's it's it's going more that way. Is there anything that could be done as a putter designer with a non mallet to pick up some of the advantages of the mallet that hasn't quite been pulled off yet? Is i is there something that could be done? speaker-1: I would think that if you're trying for that, you know, it's gonna be difficult just because the nature of you know a a blade per se doesn't have as much depth to it. So you you're limited in terms of where you can move the C G. But let's say if you were trying for that, you might go for, you know, super light in the middle and heavier on the outside. And that's been done before. never compromised it. speaker-0: The basic idea between a ping answer, right? Is a scooped out area in the middle and then the weight separated. speaker-1: Yeah, but since you brought that up, let's see here. Oops, right here. Here is a Millennium X John Byron putter, right? Whoa, whoa. This thing's kinda pretty, right? Whoa. These things sound speaker-0: What does it say on the on the toe? speaker-1: The toe it says two thousand MNX Run one number fourteen out of a hundred. speaker-0: So y'all made a hundred. speaker-1: Yeah, to start and then they became popular. So we made more. Yeah, but ⁓ yeah, so this this one was a really good putter. We we tr ⁓ tested it on a robot at the PGA show, you know, against ⁓ Carbide putter. And then Carbide two thousand. Right there on the speaker-0: Yeah. Give me a year about. Gotcha. No, I didn't speaker-1: That's okay. Wait, hey, I I that was that's that's lucky for me. I had the I didn't have to think. It's right there. I like that kind of st ⁓ information what's right there at your hand. So something like that. So that's it's aluminum in the middle, ⁓ stainless steel on the outside. So we just kind of broadened it and then like what Clay Long did, just make it even bigger this way. So if you make it bigger this way and heavier out here, that's pretty much all you can do. You know, make it bigger, make it heavier, make it dispersed. More toward the outside. If you're gonna do that. Right. How's that? speaker-0: So so so the the there's just basically the the shape by itself and the size by itself of the ballot putter has has advantages that have now been exploited. speaker-1: Yeah, and then and even with this, if you look at this from front to back, you can see that it's a little bit deeper here. Yep. So if you're if you really wanted to, you know, take this even farther, you could make these wings, which you see on like the ⁓ Odyssey number seven, right? It's got the like that. Yep. So you could accentuate that, maybe put more weight back here. But it's always about getting more weight total into the putter and then dispersing it. It's much you know, a away from the s sweet spot as possible. That's the general way that they work it. speaker-0: Now, okay. But as much as the mallet mania has hit the tour, by definition, the zero torque in quotation marks, you know, super low torque putters or almost all mallets. I know there's a couple of more non-mallet heads that ⁓ Lab has has done and a couple of other companies, but Lab's got two or three of them. Not as much success on tour. We've mentioned this before, but is it possible that because you grew up with a putter that is has torque, right? And it's all opening torque. Do I have that right? Basically, whether it's a whether it's a like like you s showed me there, ⁓ that's sort of a face balance or a long neck, right? But even if it's a forty five degree balance like a regular answer, Scotty Cameron Newport, whatever. or a face balance putter like a zebra or a you know whatever, million face balance putters there are out there. Th it's an opening torque, right? So the golfer is applying this closing torque. Do I have it right or some of ⁓ close? speaker-1: It's it's generally that, but you you you know, we're strong enough, especially you know, men and women, to be able to take a putter and still open it up. Like if you get a face balanced ⁓ mallet, you can still twist that thing open. So I I've on my sand putt lab I've had people with different putters. They try a ⁓ their answer style and they try maybe a camera that has a little bit of toe hang, but it's virtually face balance. And and the the rotation profile is pretty much the same either way. So I think Jeff Mangum, the guy that's the you know Jeff, right? Yeah. He he likes the saying. He's great. He his saying is ⁓ big man, little, little stick. In other words, you he can move it around if you want. Like our our friend Art Mafe, who just recently passed. Yeah. You know, he he he brought out something that you weren't supposed to rotate and it looked like ⁓ plumbing, like underneath your sink. It had all these twists and turns. And I I put a blast motion or something, I had some some little sensor on it. You know, you could torque it. It was like, You know, g good try. speaker-0: But is it is it possible that the you know the current guys on tour and we've got a couple of young ones, Blades Brown, I don't think it's twenty yet, and we just had a twenty one year old ⁓ win, a twenty two year old Kokovin. How you say his name, Jackson? speaker-1: I think it's Coven. Close enough. Yeah. speaker-0: We'll we'll all learn, I think. Going anywhere. They wasn't putting with zero torque putters when they started playing golf 10, 12 years ago, no matter what. It just didn't exist. So is it possible that that's why the tour success is less? Or is it just the less MOI? Is it the fact that maybe if the putters trying to open, it gives you something to do all the time, the same way where the zero torque Is not giving you the same something to do. There's got to be a technical reason since everybody's playing with potato mash or head putters. There seems to be very little aesthetic reason that it's almost the same. I think, I think I when I was looking the percentage of non-mallets to mallets winning on tour this year, which is very low, is about the same the zero torque mallets versus non-zero torque mallets. It's it's it's an ass kicking either way. ⁓ I've never had a zero torque putter or a lab putter. I like them in general to putt on putting greens with. Why do you think on tour it's not as big a thing when, you know, most of those guys can hit it in the middle of the face. speaker-1: Well, talking to Jake and I I haven't really talked to too many other players about it, but he he said that it just doesn't like fit his feel, whatever that meant. Because he's been used to feeling like something go a little bit this way and then he had to do something to get it back. So I think that's probably the main reason. And if somebody can disprove that that's a thing, maybe people will be more inclined to switch to a zero torque butter. But I I I think, you know, if just off the top of my head, I can only think of maybe half a dozen guys, maybe, that use one right now. I mean, of course, Michael Kim, he's been using one. He was using a lab, but then he went to the Taylor's made spider. Yep. Zero Torque. Zero torque. Taylor made spider. It's made the grade. Yep. speaker-0: Well, that you know, we we we ⁓ we we may we may play the spider song at some point. We have a couple of them, John came up with. Okay, so that so basically what you would say is we ris revisit this on episode 60 a year from now. You don't see any kind of possibility that all of a sudden ⁓ a bigger percentage enough that we go, whoa, that that we didn't see that coming. is gonna happen with zero torque putters or will the second and third generations of these companies that are like jumping on the lab bandwagon or maybe they're they make putters that people like better or whatever. Do you do you think that that's possible or you don't see it? speaker-1: Anything's possible, but I think it's improbable. Improbable. speaker-0: improbable. So so so more or less what you're gonna see is people like Scotty Cameron and maybe even John Ortega who cut their teeth in the putter business making, you know, answer sized heads. Maybe those guys might be making because I know ⁓ obviously Scotty's got a couple of heads that are spider sized. ⁓ is that something that you're thinking about doing if you get back in the game? speaker-1: For sure. For sure. 'Cause I mean I I love blades myself and I don't know that I'd ever like if I started playing golf a lot and you know, trying to put up a score that I'd use a a mallet, but I could change my mind. But I think if you're trying to ⁓ capture a market I go against City Hall, you know, there's there's probably what is it? You you said it's like ⁓ what was the number to winners versus speaker-0: it's like twenty five till you know less than ten. So it's it's like a it's it's a I had I had the notes, I did the research for the show and it was like I it I'm not even bringing that into the sh it's just it's an ass kicking. It's not it's not close. It's not even speaker-1: Yeah. For sure. And if you look at let's just say Cameron's ⁓ titles Cameron offerings, you know, they're probably three to one ⁓ mallets to anything that resembles a blade, might even be more than that now. So I I went into Roger Dunn's the other day with a kid that was getting fit for his clubs with cool clubs. I went over the putting green and it's just like it was mallet city. There's hardly any blade putters over there. So it was, you know, eighty eighty high or eighty percent or higher of mallets between every everything. Batinardis, Kings, doesn't matter. There's i everything was blade. ⁓ excuse me, mallet. A lot more mallet than there was blades. speaker-0: So the ones that Scotty's doing that are spiderish, they're all milled or they're multimaterial or speaker-1: Both. He has he has some that are he has some that are kind of seemingly more solid. Now st a lot of the the production Scotty Cameron's they're they're made in multiple pieces, even if they're all steel, because it's it's a lot more expensive and time consuming to mill it out of one piece. So they'll ⁓ mill the base of the head and then they'll put it like a hossle through ⁓ an opening in the head and they'll weld it from the inside and then put a sole plate on the bottom. So they're they're majority of them almost all of them really have multi ⁓ parts to them, but they might all ⁓ some of them might be all metal, of which a good percentage of it is steel and some of it's aluminum. And then of course they have some that are like a polymer, some kind of plastic or ⁓ graphite. ⁓ the I forget what they call the phantom something or another. Really nice. I mean I I I really like Cameron mallets. They're they're super nice. ⁓ so like if I were going to, you know, use ⁓ a a mallet putter, I'd probably go Taylor made spider because of the grooves. Then I would go either Ping or Scotty. The ping the ping, this white one's really, really good. But I'm I'm not really too too into the center shaft right now, but y I think you can get used to anything. But you know, I've hit some of the other ping putters like the one that ⁓ what's the kid's name that's ⁓ speaker-0: Ryan Fox won with a ping. speaker-1: Yeah, the the two D, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that there there's an example of like a bigger ⁓ like bigger head bl bigger head pla blade style that would have a better MOI. It's the you know. But ⁓ ping, I'm trying to think of the g Alex Smalley. That the mallet that he's using with the little neck on it. Yep. I put I've hit putts with that. That thing's sick. It's really good. You would think speaker-0: that they of all companies you would think that of that ⁓ white what is it what is it called a Scottsdale what? What's the I mean not the actual putter itself but the line is the speaker-1: It's the alley blue onset. speaker-0: Yeah, whatever. The alleys, right? So you'd think they would do one of those of all companies and with a with an answer neck. speaker-1: No I they might. I think they might. They ought to actually Yeah. They ought to. May maybe give ⁓ the idea. I'm sure they've thought of it already. But I think with this one they were trying to capture, you know, I th they're not about having this be like zero torque. I think they're not speaker-0: I think they purposely did not do it. They didn't want a copy. And good for them. They they got a US open win out of it. So on the on the now we're on big we're big heads, right? So now do you do you think they're gonna get bigger maybe? speaker-1: Potentially. If it gets too big, I think it gets cartoonish. Like Ping made one, ⁓ what was it called? That big it was speaker-0: Look like a half a half a moon. speaker-1: Yeah, that was the John Sousa, the guy that the the the works department head. I think that was his. And I'm it's escaping what the name is. By the end of the show I'll it'll kinda kick into my brain. Well my head too. I think it was called the dock, something like that. Yeah. Dock. Yeah. It was it was big, right? And and I think Callaway w made one too. It was a pretty speaker-0: Like actual size. speaker-1: Pretty large ⁓ mallet. speaker-0: They probably optimum. They they're coming to an optimum size. So so now you got big headed putters, but they've they've hit their little limit, maybe. What about the big grips? There was all the rage, you know, superstroke became a giant company, made a ton of money, bought a they bought Lampkin or somebody. What what do they do? But they, you know, I see a lot less big grips. Is this did this hit its peak and go the other way? speaker-1: I think you see more big grips on the longer putters like Ryan Fox's or ⁓ Wyndham Clark's. They get to be more than thirty eight ch thirty-eight inches long and they're going up toward the belly or they're up the left arm. You see it more on a putter like that. You know, if somebody's using a thirty-four or thirty three or thirty-five inch, you don't see it that much. You might see a little bit larger if somebody has big hands, but the majority of ⁓ are, you know, just normal size or maybe a little bit bigger. So I I just don't see that that being a thing on tour. I I could be wrong. I haven't really like Looked at it. speaker-0: Yeah, it it just looks like overall the trend has e even the superstroke has more small head ⁓ small grips. Yes and then and then the Garson grips are kind of a I would call that almost mid size. They're just a little bit bigger than what a standard putter grip was twenty years ago, right? speaker-1: I agree with that. Yeah. speaker-0: So maybe that's cooled off. So okay. So but on on the longer grips on the longer putters, like Wyndham Clark. Counterbalance too, is that a thing? ⁓ is anybody using a normal the word normal coming out of my mouth? Spider type putter like Jake Knapp is using right now, ⁓ w you know, and probably needs to stay with it for a while because he putts really good with it. is any of those people counterbalancing or not really the thirty three, four, five, six inch no. speaker-1: To some degree, yeah. No. I don't see hardly any of that. But you know, they could have it at the end of the grip. You know, and you know, some of those ⁓ super strokes have like a little metal thing at the end. I accidentally bought one one time and I put it on a putter, I'm like, that didn't feel very good. And then I found out that it was counterbalanced. I'm like, Okay, no wonder. But it just didn't fit my feel. But I just don't see too much of that. You know, every once in a while, you know, some of Jake's friends, you know, they're the that he plays practice rounds with, they'll they'll look at the putter and I'll you say, Yeah, let's see that. And Like JT Postons, for instance. I you I looked at his, you know, the the spider that he changed to, you know, he just had a normal grip on it and it didn't have any kind of counterbalance. So yeah, I I just don't see a lot of that personally, just on a on a quote unquote normal putter, like somewhere between thirty three and thirty five inches. speaker-0: And in la l last ⁓ last episode we talked about shafts and and and and ⁓ to me I I wanna feel something, you know. I mean that's ⁓ I know the higher end shafts are gonna be a thing. I I don't see it getting to be too big a thing at retail because y y y you know, that ping putter right there, you know, or let's just say any Scotty Cameron, three fifty or something like that, you start putting a shaft that all you know, aftermarket is three fifty and all of a sudden you gotta sell the putter for a thousand dollars, just not not not every day that that's gonna happen. But I think higher end putter shafts and different flexes and stuff is is a thing. speaker-1: thing. Well t let's go let's just go back to the shaft a little bit. ⁓ since you talked about that in in the last last episode that we recorded that hasn't been put out yet, we talked about ⁓ guy named Jeff Sy that was going to come in. He he's you know was hired by KBS shafts. Yes, yep. And so he brought in some putter shafts and of course they had the stiff shaft that you know is supposed to stabilize ⁓ heavy heads. Sure. And he had it both in steel and graphite then They're also gonna ⁓ introduce something that's like the hump shaft. Do remember the Apollo hump shaft? It was kinda thick and then it got skinny. V J Singh used to use them in his irons. speaker-0: I r I remember the tailor made bubble. speaker-1: Kind of like that, you know, where where it's thick it's at some point it gets really thick. So it's thick all the way down to about maybe fifteen inches from the tip. And so you can tip it more and have a stiffer feel, or you can leave it untipped and have a more flexible feel. So going back to the thing that you talked about with the the the guy that had seven ping answers or five ping answers and he did di different C PMs in him. Yep. Yeah, so so you can do that with ⁓ the the ⁓ KBS shaft is that one particular shaft. I don't what they call it. I should have wrote wrote down the name, but it's basically a kind of like the Apollo hump shaft. So if you look that up, you can see what it looks like. It's just, you know, kind of skinny skinny tip. Yeah. It could be. You know, it just depends on how you trim it. But it's gonna have some kick if you if you leave it untrimmed, and it's gonna have less kick if you trim it trim it more. speaker-0: Torque. Have you have you ⁓ had any experience with the CPT putter shaft? Some nice things about I I have putted at the show with the Gears putter shaft. ⁓ they have some speaker-1: No. Which one's that? speaker-0: Oveo, I think, ⁓ their regular line, you know, with ⁓ the woods and and irons, but th this is their putter shaft and this is all I could tell you. It's supposed to be, I think, please, Michael Neff, don't get mad at me if I get this wrong. Low torque but decent flex. Like I could flex the thing. I could the the weird thing about me and flex is I could lag it better with flex. You know, a lot of times I think when in steel if you went flexy then you got more torque, but now you can engineer the shaft to have less torque and more flex, so Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a it's lab it's a it's a lab standard option, you know, the gear shaft. speaker-1: Is it a s graphite shaft or steel? Really? And it's graphite. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. speaker-1: Yeah, so so what Jeff said about the graphite shafts, you they're light the the material itself's lighter, but it's way stronger than steel. So, you know, you you could probably do some things with a graphite shaft now that, you know, were probably not really thought of as being possible in in the past now that they've had ⁓ graphite shafts out. What has it been now? Pretty close to fifty years. Yep. The first graphite shaft I saw it was an odila graphite shaft and I was in Maybe middle school. So that that that would make me thirteen or fourteen years old and I'm sixty seven now. So you do the math, that's you know, over fifty years. So they've had some time to ⁓ to make this ⁓ this graphite shaft making a little bit more precise of a of an engineering feat. speaker-0: year that Johnny Miller won eight tournaments was seventy four and he was using a graphite shaft in his driver. The first major ⁓ winner might have been if he won the major, maybe he he he contended remember the Pebble Beach PGA was all browned out and ⁓ Gene Littler and Lanny Watkins, I think, went at it. And I think Littler had a a ⁓ a graphite shaft ⁓ in that ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Those things were really speaker-0: But so anyway, the trend is there's so many things that they could do with shafts that it's probably the the p higher end shaft or just different kinds of shafts that might be not very super expensive or i it's probably going up and not down. So speaker-1: Yeah, and I think KBS is going to be offering a lot of the like for you know, I this is putting and spun, but for irons and woods, some, you know, fairly reasonably priced options for graphite for your irons. So guess what? I'm getting some graphite shafts in my iron. What speaker-0: People don't remember about that is ⁓ everybody knows that's you know our age should know it easily, even a little bit younger than we are, knows that a seven-iron in a set of titless T-100s, just to throw a club that a good player might play with now. is a lot stronger than let's say Nicholas's nineteen sixty six McGregor VIPs that he played with for a decent amount of time and won some majors with. It it just the loft has changed. I I remember why the loft changed, even though this is not a putting thing, but we're talking about shafts. Daiwa. Had a set of irons. They made their own graphite shafts. So they could sell this set of irons for about what everybody else was selling. Their high-end irons with steel shafts. And the things kicked so much that the ball went so high that they took the loss down. And because they took the loss down, and then it kicked high enough to go the normal height, it was like another club. So everybody hit them further. So we sold the hell out of them at City Park. And that was really the the the beginning of the graphite shaft and something besides a driver. So I think it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna happen a lot in putters too. So now we're on stroke theory and stroke application. The only thing I can tell you from the tour end, because I haven't been to that many tour events in the last couple of years, been a couple with you and Jake. Is standing on the practice putting green the last time y'all were in New Orleans and I I I went out there, I guess that's two years ago. I'm standing on the green and and nobody's on the green yet. Like Jake went to the you know, locker room, you might have went to the little boys' room. I'm just standing there trying to not get arrested for not having any credentials of any kind. Well what I what I no, I didn't I didn't have anything. I don't care who listens. speaker-1: ⁓ But You you have you have credit. You have you have a different kind of cred. Yeah. speaker-0: I'm king of New Orleans. I can go ahead and Anyway, I know all the cops and I know all the people running the range. So that's that's what helps. So anyway, I'm just standing there, not doing anything. And ⁓ the best players of the world are putting on a putting green and I'm I'm I'm watching. And not every one of do I get a good angle, right? Because they're putting every witch away on a practice putting green. Mostly flat practice putton green, that one. And not huge. So they're all kind of in a little area and they're facing every which way, like I said. And I'm looking at them. And I was just overcome with the it hit me like boom, right in the face. How much golfers are using their back to putting? Like if you were just looking at their two little shoulder blades, I mean they were just rotating all over the place. There's not a whole lot of arm swing. D besides that, maybe I'm just crazy and that was just one day at one tournament, but talk about that and also talk about are you seeing any trends at the highest level in how people are trying and actually making putter strokes? speaker-1: Well now that they have ⁓ or at least Kenyon has those ⁓ putting mats out, those physio putt mats that kinda have the little curve to them, and then they have the lines that are kind of ninety degrees to the curve. I I look at the number on on the ⁓ on the template, they call it. A lot of them are threes. So they're curving. They're curving the putter. So ⁓ my robot over here that's I can almost touch him, he's locked in. So his arms don't go like this away from his body. So when when he rotates around his upper back, kind of like what you were talking about with his shoulder blades. Yep. You can see the elbows, hands, shoulders, they curve and a fair amount. So if they're gonna reduce that curve, there's gonna need to be a little bit of arm movement in the shoulder joints. So, you know, some people like if like you get a JT post and his arms are kind of doing a lot of that. So I imagine his his curve is a little bit less. But the way I look at it is if they're locked in and they're rotating like you're talking about, that thing's gonna curve. I mean it has to. Now, if if they wanna swing it straighter for whatever reason, you know their putting coach says swing it straighter, even if they don't try to do it consciously, they're gonna have to do something like bend more at the waist or have their arms, you know, move like ⁓ was his name? Al Jewel. Is that his name? Yeah, so they have to do a little bit of Al Jewel with their rotation, right? Yep. So so that that I see Yeah. speaker-0: Mom bunt. speaker-1: Yeah, so I see more threes and fours of of those templates, some twos, but even twos have some curves. speaker-0: Putting the the the famous ⁓ the infamous VJ Trollio, I think he sold it, putter arc, putting arc, right? ⁓ That was a very popular training for a long time. They still sell some of ⁓ what would you think that is on a Kenyan template? speaker-1: I'd say maybe about a three. Three yeah, it's probably like s I think fifteen degrees of curve, roughly. speaker-0: So With people putting that way at the highest level, why do you think nobody I have seen anybody pull out a putting arc that could beat me in a long time? Just seems kind speaker-1: I have. Really? I saw ⁓ Eric Cole. Eric Cole. Yeah. Yeah, and there's somebody else. I think I've seen ⁓ Tommy Fleetwood with a inside down the line. So that's half a putting arc, right? Yeah, so I've seen I've seen those two things, but you know, I mostly see Kenyon templates or Willput. Wilputt has one, you know, that Cameron McCormick he speaker-0: There you go. ⁓ Yeah, I've seen speaker-1: Their pitch man for that. But I think those are good. You know, you s you know, you get some semblance of getting the club traveling in a consistent way. You know? Who knows if they do exactly that when it's not there, but it's not a bad thing to train with. So and then, you know, the the putting board that ⁓ Goss, whatever his name is, the guy that was ⁓ is the coach at Northwestern. Yeah, Pat Goss. What's his name? Pat Goss ⁓ All those things are useful. I mean, if you talk to guys that are into straight back th straight through, like like Jeff Mangum, he thinks they're garbage, right? They're always gonna have their opinion about what they think is good. You know, I I I just like ⁓ something that's fairly consistent. You know, I I I prefer a little bit of curve on a putting stroke. And if somebody just happens to do what you're talking about, rock the heck out of their shoulders, it's probably gonna have more curve, particularly if their right elbow kind of moves back like this way. If they're starting to lawn more, they have a little bit of that and there's gonna curve more. So just d different little things you can do. If the shoulder pulls back more, this as opposed to moving up more, you know, all all those little ⁓ micro movements are gonna yield ⁓ like a global bigger movement. speaker-0: What about practice? Do you see anything on tour that people are doing different when they're out on the practice putting green, working on their stroke and or just making putts? speaker-1: ⁓ yes and no. But the the majority of them have like some kind of putting plate like ⁓ Derek Ueda has. They'll have ⁓ Kenyon's ⁓ template. They'll have ⁓ what else? ⁓ see, gadgets, dude add gadgets like elevated string, chalk lines, right? But the one that I saw that was the most interesting, and I I filmed him, but he caught me filming and he gave me the the gave me the side eye. 'Cause I I'm always just kind of sneaking this. Yeah. So it was Justin Rose. He had this really cool thing that went against the thing it went against his left arm. So it was kinda like almost like something coming out of the top of the grip. And then there was like a little swing guide thing that went over toward his ⁓ left forearm and he just kinda kept it right up against there and he's putting underneath a elevated string. So he was just trying to lose a little bit of this wristiness. speaker-0: They used to a thing for the right arm called the Bickler. Was it the Bickler? speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, the Bickler. It was kind of a left left arm Bickler. But he could he Yeah, he could move that around like multiple ways. So it wasn't like just ⁓ one one ⁓ one trick pony. He he he was pretty pretty you know, malleable. You could move it around different ways. But he that was the when I watched him do that was the week that he just snuffed everybody in San Diego. I'm like, Well, I think that's worked pretty good. 'Cause he laughed to everybody. I think he won that that tournament by like six or seven. speaker-0: Do you see a whole bunch of people using any apps that, you know, tell you, okay, now hit five footers, eight footers? I mean, you're hearing some stuff about that, but speaker-1: Yeah. I I I've I've I've witnessed Jake 'cause you know, I'm with him. But he he has he has a guy that ⁓ he uses for his ⁓ analytics and also help help him with ⁓ strategy a little bit with practice. So he has ⁓ like it's like a combine. It's it's a putting punt combine that would ⁓ yeah, that would that hopefully mirror what he his ⁓ approach putts would be on the course that he's playing. So he's you know it's like speaker-0: Hopefully Mirror. speaker-1: you know, just as an example, he'd have some five footers that might be like saves for pars or like he stuffs a a wedge on a par ⁓ par five or then he'd have maybe some eighteen to twenty footers. So that might be if he comes in with a nine or pitching wedge and hits a good one. Then you'd have some that are like thirty five feet, which would be like he didn't hit a very good one, or it was a long par three and he had a pretty good shot. So I've seen him do it, but I haven't seen too many other guys like look at their phone or their caddy say, Okay, you're gonna do this one, you're gonna do that one, you're gonna do the other one. But I'm sure they do You know, this day and age there's gonna be some kind of combine thing going on, especially when you have guys like ⁓ Scott Fawcett and any of the other guys that are analytics guys, they're gonna, you know, put their guys through the paces, they're gonna, you know, somewhat mimic what they're gonna, you know, find w during that tournament at that ⁓ that that venue. speaker-0: We we sort of got into this just now, talking about practice out there on tour. Latest and greatest putting training aids that you're seeing that might not even be on tour? Are you seeing anything, you know, jump off the screen? I mean, I get an ad I get an ad a week for something. speaker-1: W what I've seen that's not on tour yet that I think is pretty good, it's like this triangular kinda think it's called the putting ruler. Super nice guy from up in Utah. He he he gave me a few to give ⁓ give away at this ⁓ speaking engagement I had up in Northern California. Right. ⁓ PGA it's a s really, really nicely made it's kinda like a pulse putting tutor, but you s you p ⁓ snap on, it's kinda like magnetic and you know, force fitting or like puzzle fitting ⁓ like ruler that's ⁓ coming out front. That's why they call it the ruler. I think that's a really cool tool because it really gives you the the visual of like, hey, that's that way, right? And and you have to hit it pretty good to keep it on that ruler. So that that's one that I I haven't seen on tour that I think's really good. And ⁓ and it's it's reasonably priced. It's like a little bit more than a hundred bucks. You know, when I looked at it I'm like this is like a two hundred and fifty dollar thing and it was like a hundred and twenty or two hundred and thirty dollars. So especially if you're a club pro and you want to buy a few for your students, I think it gives deals You know, if ⁓ if you just look up the putting ruler you'll probably find him. His name's Nathan, something or another. You can find that just on the internet. That one's pretty good. Of course my groove board's been around for twenty years. I like that one, of course. But ⁓ other than that, like ⁓ Kenyon has Kenyan has a mirror and a template for like how you set up your feet. That's new and you know, he's peddling that and he's pretty good at ⁓ making those training aids. And ⁓ So is that speaker-0: Any way to do you but you just kinda glossed over your your your your ⁓ your groove board. So your groove board, I have one, is is ⁓ is ⁓ aluminum. speaker-1: Well, they're the the the OG ones that are I call full metal jackets are aluminum. They're thirty two inches long. They're pretty thin. They're maybe eighth inch, maybe, maybe less, sixteenth of an inch thick, four and a quarter inches wide, and there are three lines on it. They they work really good. James O, you know, he became a you know, really, really good ⁓ putter and player, you know, using one and lot lot of the people the first person to use one was ⁓ that was a tour player was ⁓ Siri Pack. And she lit it up and all these other girls came running and you know, it works Really, really well. But ⁓ so I don't have any of those right now, but I've been three D printing some. ⁓ Tyler, you know Tyler Smith, the kid you came up to work with? Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So he he's been three three D printing some for me. Make some plastic. Yeah, and and they they work plastic. They work really good. I can make them super, super thin too. So I I've kind of switched over that for now, but I'll I'll make some more metal ones 'cause I think those have their place and ⁓ you know th they're they're industrial, kinda like commercial grade. speaker-0: So so basically the idea is you're lining this thing up where you wanna start the putt and you put the ball in the middle and that would be just like those little grooves and the truth board and the truth board actually moves this way. But ⁓ the wha what what's the ⁓ s this pell stick? Doesn't he have a speaker-1: putting tutor? Are you talking about the truth board? speaker-0: Truthboard's a an actual you you as has a you you put it, right? speaker-1: Yeah, you put it down a ruler. That that's that was the truth board, but Pel Pell's had something that was tr ⁓ like a triangle and and there was a groove in it and then you put ball bearings up. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Nick N Nick Nick Tabinsky, ⁓ our our our dear friend that I gave a lesson to this morning on Zoom, European multiple tour player, ⁓ twenty years old. ⁓ do you think that there's something that hadn't been invented that's obvious that Maybe now with three D printing you might you might see somebody take a crack at. 'Cause to me there there's almost nothing for the hands and that there's you know, you don't really wanna be using too much risk, but it just seems like something could be created where you you know, like a ⁓ a device that would let you move it and tell you you moved it at the right time or ⁓ you just don't see that much for ⁓ for putting where where you think you could. speaker-1: Well, what you're talking about, there is something out there already that's pretty good, but you don't see it on tour for for whatever reason. But you remember the thing it was called the ⁓ Chris Walkie made it. It was called, let me think. It was kind of like double swing guide. There's a swing guide here, swing guide here. They're kinda thin. Like two I think the the the width of it was kinda ⁓ a little bit narrower for most people. But he made one that was called I think it was it was called the power package. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: That one. And then he made one that's called the putting package. So the putting package, you could either lock it in and be like super rigid, like Steve Stricker or Lauren Lauren Roberts plus. And then you could unlock it and see if you could do close to the same thing, or if there was a little bit of give that you kind of liked in your stroke, kind of like you're talking about, liking the f the feel for long putts, having a little bit of lag in there or whatever. So it's there there is something out there that's already that. But it was, you know, kinda multiple pieces and maybe a little bit more work than most people were willing to put in. But I thought it was really good. I've got one somewhere. I'll I'll now that you reminded me of it, I'll pull it out and kinda start messing with it. speaker-0: So so now you're in the the ultimate training age, right, are the putter measurement devices. So let's see if I got let's see if I got it right here. If somebody was opening, you know, a putter studio tomorrow, like the the guy in Korea did, right? He he didn't have any business and he opened the studio up, god God bless him. What's his name again? speaker-1: Secret of Choi. I don't know what's it's Hongwang Choi or something like that. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: Choi, Choi Choi wanted to have me he wanted to have me come there to do a ⁓ golfing machine thing and then Lynn Blake ⁓ upsurped me for that. And ⁓ I think he was very curious when I went and did the ⁓ week I did in in Korea, ⁓ couple but I I like Korea and I I like Choi and I like all those guys. but You're you're building a putting studio or you're just a golf nut and you got enough dough to do it. Let's see if I got it right. Sam putt lab, right, wireless. How much is this going for right now? speaker-1: I think they're about seventy five hundred. Okay. And then there's like a there's a little thing that you buy with it. It's called the putt station. So by the time you get everything together and you buy some kind of computer, you're about in for ten. Okay. So you got speaker-0: Okay, so I see Then you got then you got the Quintech, which is a whole system, right? Measures the ball roll and what else? Some something that the putter does? Anything that the putter? speaker-1: Yeah, it does club face. Does club c face path. ⁓ it does impact point, like if it you hit it off the toe it shows that it opens. But not speaker-0: Overall stroke thing like the sand. It's more down by the speaker-1: It does it does do a lot of that, but it's it's a little less in my mind, a little less telling of like what's happening at certain times. If you look at the graph, you know, somebody could say, ⁓ yeah, it says the same thing, you know, you know but when you look at the Sam Puttlab, you know have this this three D ⁓ animation, it's a little bit easier for people to put their mind around. So when you're explaining to somebody if you look look at this graph, see it's going like this. As soon as you put up a graph, most people are like Yeah. Yeah. So I think I think if I think if if ⁓ if ⁓ Quintech came up with something like that, that would be helpful. I think more guys that teach putting would use it. But speaker-0: Very, very high speed cameras, right? That's the basic speaker-1: Exactly one, the one that I have. They might have more now, but they but they the the thing about ⁓ Quintech, they've got like an overhead projector that does kind of the putt view thing. Yep. And they've paired with was Zen, the putt Green Stage. And one thing I like about track man or any of these systems is they remember everything, right? You you want to go back and go, what were you doing? You go, ⁓ there it is, right? So it it has I was talking to Preston Combs about this. He said you can speaker-0: I'm I'm a a w well known ⁓ putting instructor. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, and really good with tech and he's ⁓ he's killing it with the with the the girls, ⁓ the NC two eight girls and you know, all kinds of colleges. He's he's a really good coach. But anyhow, he was telling me that with his, he can recall the putt that the guy came in a year or two ago or three years ago, said, you know, when I hit that putt, that you know, that just warmed me up. Well, let's see what it was. And he could show him how much break he had guessed and you know, maybe at first it wasn't great and then maybe under guessed and then when he adjusted them, you know, the aiming point. Everything clicked, right? So, you th there there's there's a lot of ⁓ technology out there that's improving that will help you help your students speaker-0: So okay, we we're we're buying this Ultimate Putty Studio. So now Quintech without without the projector, just the Quintech speaker-1: No, you gotta be if it's ultimate you gotta get the the projector too. Okay, but go ahead. speaker-0: And the Zen green stage, right? So you're gonna go speaker-1: Yeah, hey, one's one's gonna go right over there. I've I've got a twenty footer coming in. End of the year. My the boss approved the the expenditure. speaker-0: Like so there's a bunch of those companies, right? Platform I think that's what Puttview's what Jacobs has. speaker-1: But view Yeah, platform gone. ⁓ he has a he has ⁓ well put. The big tilt. speaker-0: Well putt. Okay. Big tilt. Giant thing. Giant would would would dominate this room. I wish I had more room. I would have one. Then then then I've seen the one with Choi where they it's just something like a rolled out thing, but it's really h nice. And and you have the projector and you see the lines and however much curve you want in your stroke and I think, you know. speaker-1: They call that tour putt. Tour putt. speaker-0: Tour putt. So there's a there's a bunch of those. So you'd probably do that. And how much you're gonna be out for just the Quintec by itself though? Twelve? speaker-1: No, I think there are more now. The the really cool one that looks like a ghetto blaster. It it's I think they're like eighteen. No. No. The one I have the one I have is the old one with the light strip. Yeah, yeah. And then the the camera underneath. So I've got the old school ones. Good. Works just as good as the other one, but the other one you can take onto a putting green and you know, just carry it around like a ghetto blaster. And then like when you want to put it on the putting green, your your ⁓ your putting platform, you just plop it down, aim it. speaker-0: Do you have one? speaker-1: And ⁓ you're good to go, right? speaker-0: And and when you said Preston Combs, it made me remember Capto. So how how are those guys ⁓ doing in the industry and are you seeing more or less capto these days? speaker-1: I'm seeing about the same as always. You know, I I have a couple speaker-0: The bolt on, you put it on the putter. Where on the putter does it go? speaker-1: It goes if I remember right, it's about eighteen inches up the shaft, so it's not quite it's about halfway up. Yeah, there's a little thing that you can be you you ⁓ use to like set it up in little speaker-0: It's trying to do basically the same thing Sam's doing more or less, just cheap. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's less expensive and less cumbersome. You can you can take it outdoors and it travels better, you know. To take a Sam around it's you quite a speaker-0: So I I have track man four. So when I give a putting lesson, I use it, I I think it's fine for the things it's it's measuring. Have you ever used it much or at all in your putting teaching and have you used it against any of the other guys to test out, you know, the similarities or differences? speaker-1: But yeah, ⁓ I haven't compared ⁓ but I've used it outdoors. I think it's really good 'cause it's gonna give you launch direction, it's gonna give you club face path. It's it's pretty accurate. You know, I I like it a lot. The only thing that can you know, sometimes gets a little confusing is how much the bouncing is and things like that. You know, what does that mean? When you're on a putting green, a Poana putting green, it's been putted on for four hours, does it mean these these greens speaker-0: It's bouncing some some kind of way. And have you used the foresight any for putting? speaker-1: That means you're on Poana, it's bouncing. No. No, but I I'm going to. You know, it's gonna be probably next week or two that Jeff's I, the ⁓ the K KVS guy is gonna come in and kinda give me a little tutorial on what I can do with my foresight. 'Cause I've been just using my foresight for gapping for wedges for kids that I coach. I've been using my track man indoor. So he he said, Yeah, you gotta get the you know, the the foresight going for this reason. I'll go, I'll try it out. So I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll let you know once I do that. speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ and you can you can throw this little story in there. So Kim Brayley, so KBS Kim Brayley shafts, right? So I worked for Stan Stopper at Pro Tech Golf in 1982 for about six months and I was refinishing woods. When I came back a couple of years later after working at City Park for a couple of years, I ⁓ it it it was now a a much techier Pro Tech and We had ⁓ frequency machine from Precision, which was was the company, which is his dad's company. They're the people that came out with, you know, six point five, five point ⁓ six point sevens, you know. I think it's funny now that you see all these ⁓ you know, people on tour using six point fives and and ⁓ you know, shafts and and the whole idea of when they came out with that was you you might be a six point four, you know, it might bet might be better for you, but it b be that as it may, I used to get on the phone to order stuff and I I'm sure I talked to Kim over the years and then I saw him out there when I was out on tour with David. But ⁓ great guy, Brayley. And ⁓ I'm glad he's ⁓ you know, gonna Do a little more putting shaft focus because it's definitely ⁓ you know, it's definitely a thing. So tell tell me this, you know, to kind of to wrap up the trend. What do you say? What says John Ortega when you see this thing? It's always posted a lot the last, I'd say, two years. Putting has not gotten any better at the tour in the last twenty years. I got my feeling but I wanna hear yours first. speaker-1: I think it has. You know, I think we talked about this before. It's just it's the the putting greens are faster. You know, there's ⁓ the green the the the courses are longer. So I don't know that they were doing strokes gain putting when Ben Crenshaw was out there. If they're they're gonna like go through the the annals of like, ⁓ he was this far away, he got this close. But you know, the I the and when you have five hundred and twenty yard par fours. You're not gonna have as close a birdie putt if you had like a three hundred and ninety yard par four, right? Even even if you factor in the golf balls and the steel shaft woodwoods versus graphite shafts with titanium, right? Not the same thing. So it's not the same thing. It's it's you know, it's one of those, you know, barroom arguments about, you know, Mohammed Ali would have beat whoever. Or probably would have, of course, we we we don't take Mohammed Ali. He's our guy, right? Yeah. speaker-0: But but on that subject, I got to see I I I had seen like one hole, you know, so like one putt and maybe a tap in from Bobby Locke, but there's a video out there of him playing in some match or tournament, and he's like playing like ten holes they have. And I mean, ⁓ first of all, the Greens were slow as you know, probably me running a 40 yard dash uphill now, but it was pushing a wheelbarrow. I mean they were slow, like four. But i he wasn't like burning every edge. You know, he w I mean obviously he was a good putter and and nobody would say he was such a good putter and the record speaks for itself and he came over here and beat everybody's behind. But I mean it's like, you know, like I I just you g you give me somebody that has a ridiculous putting round like Jake has had, like Mike Kim just had, like, you know speaker-1: Mm. And burns almost every time. speaker-0: Sam Burns, right? I mean, like, as long as it's not the last couple of holes. Sam, you just have to pretend it's not the last couple of holes. You just have to say, it's gonna be okay if I win a major. My life is not gonna change that much. That's I'm telling you, you know, just knock it in and be Sam and nobody's gonna bother you. You know, just everybody knows who you are anyway, that's a golfer. And if you win a major, you're not gonna get stopped. It's safe way, you know, when you go out to California. It's just not it's you know, there's levels of fame, right? And and let me just tell you, to get to be a you know, not to use Sam again, but let's say somebody like Scheffler, he's a big old guy. He has a certain look in his face. There's not a lot of those, you're not gonna run into those that many guys like that, you know, walking around the mall in St. Louis, Missouri. So you're probably gonna go, well, ⁓ yeah, Scotty Scheffler. But if you're a regular-sized cat and you're out on tour, like Wendham Clark. I mean you he he's about Sam's size or whatever. I don't think he gets stopped. You know, he takes a hat off. I don't think anybody knows who he is. I mean, you know, so but at the end of the day, I think putty putting getting better. And I I'll leave you with this. The last thing in my brain before we schedule today's show. Somebody posted up two really good pictures of UB Green putting and I thought I I saw this guy in person. He was a phenomenal fifteen foot and in putter and there's nobody quite doing that stroke anymore. speaker-1: They should. I I've I've got one of those putters, a Willy Hoar. So I Willy The Willy Hoar. Yeah. It's kinda looks like an eighty or two. You got you got probably fifty bucks can get you one on ebay. speaker-0: That's what it's called? them apples. Well, Johnny, we we ran through our time together like it was nothing. speaker-1: No it's you can find flies when you're having fun. speaker-0: It always fun. Putting is fun. Another one in the books. See you folks soon. speaker-1: Okay, adios bring your scotty or that new fangle time rolling pots will surely be fair. But it's just like a scene. You can drift away and chill in a dream. Put with your rose, go soak up the sun free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun.