Latest / Beautifully Complex / 272: What Does Anger Tell Us?, with Dr. Lori Desautels

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272: What Does Anger Tell Us?, with Dr. Lori Desautels · Beautifully Complex

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Many parents and caregivers are so in the fray with the behavior and with the
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emotions that are heightening, that we're not aware of how we are unintentionally escalating
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everybody around us. Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
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and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host,
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Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author and mindset mama, honored to
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guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.
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Welcome back, friends. I am so excited to have doctor Lori Desatel with
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me on the podcast today and we are going to talk about anger and what
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anger tells us because I think so often, as the adults in the room,
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we misinterpret anger and what is really a signal of. So I'm really
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excited to have this conversation with you. But will you start by letting everyone
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know who you are and what you do. So I am Laurie Desatel,
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and I am an assistant professor in the College of Education at Butler University in
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Indianapolis, and I teach a framework in our graduate programs entitled Applied Educational neuroscience,
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which is a Tier one trauma accommodating framework. So it really is not
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about those students or these kids or this group. It really does support our
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children and our adolescents who are carrying in to our schools some adversity, some
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trauma. But also it really is a framework that's support neuro divergent learning processing,
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and it also is a big support for adults because we know that behavior
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management is not about kids. It is really about us as parents, as
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teachers in any role in our schools, homes and communities. So I also
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am in the classroom two half days a week, and I'm there intentionally because
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I'm a former special education teacher, I am a former school counselor, and
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I have been in higher ed now for sixteen years, and I felt that
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there was a significant divide between higher education and K through twelve. So my
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lab is the classroom. I am a practitioner, so I take the practices,
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the strategies, the research and get into our classrooms across the country and
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the world. Yeah. Yeah, I want to reiterate for parents something you
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just said and educators everyone listening. You said, behavior management is about us.
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It is about us, not about the kids. I just wanted to
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reiterate that for everybody listening because it's so so important, and I talk all
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the time in my own work with parents it's like ninety percent about us,
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the parents, and the ways that we show up for kids. So I
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so appreciate you saying that and bringing that into this conversation. So where should
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we start when we talk about anger and what it's really telling us? Well,
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I mean, there's you know, anger is, you know, an
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emotion, but it also is there's so much beneath the anger that we misunderstand.
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And I don't want to generalize or be definitive in how anger looks or
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how it impacts, but we do know that anger originates from a nervous system
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that is struggling, from a nervous system that is feeling overwhelmed, from a
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nervous system that is trying to mitigate and buffer the stressors that are coming at
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us. And we feel oftentimes powerless or we feel helpless. And so we've
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said for a long time that sometimes, not always, but sometimes the bodyguard
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of fear is anger. So you know, when you start feeling back those
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layers, we can sometimes see anxiety. We can sometimes see fear. But
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even beneath those emotions are insations that are felt internally, and that's the physicalized
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language of the nervous system that we don't know what to do with them,
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you know, That's where that overwhelming Yeah, nervous system state just feels too
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much, too fast, too soon, and that can be traumatizing for many
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of our children. But we do misunderstand that anger is just oftentimes a signal,
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It's an indicator, Yeah, that the nervous system is rough, as
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we say in our house, I like that. Yeah, they're dysregulated,
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right, their nervous system is dysregulated, and then we see very instinctual reactions,
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you know. Can we talk a little bit about intention and sort of
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the curiosity that we need to have as the adult in the intention of that
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behavior, like is it a chosen behavior or is it more instinctual? Well
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as parents, and I'm a mama of three adult young adults now, but
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our oldest son went through life with a lot of social anxiety. He was
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diagnosed with add and he was angry. I feel like as a mom looking
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back, he was so angry much at the time, and frustrated and irritated
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and annoyed and felt misunderstood. And I say that today because so I can't
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give you a practice or a strategy yet, but I can say that as
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a mom and as a former teacher, and even today, the work is
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about my nervous system, the anger that I see from my own children.
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This is an opportunity to connect through conflict, and I didn't do that well
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as a mom. So we know emotions are contagious, yeah, and we
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also know that our stress responses are contagious. And so I wish, knowing
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what I know now, that I would have taken better care of my own
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nervous system. I would have found some grounding. I would have stepped away
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before I spoke. I would have cared for the way I was handling the
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situation before confronting and discussing and even repairing with Andrew. Because this work is
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about us, the adults, and we also get triggered. We're not robots.
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We get activated. We get triggered. And as parents and as caregivers,
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we are so up close and personal with our children that it's hard for
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us sometimes to step back and to provide some space and time, which is
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needed in the heat of the moment. When that anger is shown. Yeah,
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you talked about grounding to connect through conflict. Can you say a little
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bit more about that. What does grounding look like? What might an adult
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do to do some grounding? Yes, So I use the word grounding in
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place of calm because I think calm is overused and you're not realistic. So
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I like the words I try to steady myself, I try to ground myself
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and I personally. There's lots of ways we can do this as adults,
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but we have to tap into the practices that align with our nervous system states.
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Meaning, for me, breath work is critical. I've learned how to
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use my breath to slow down my heart rate, to slow down my respiration,
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So there's a lot of power and intentional breathing and breathing changes our biology.
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We changes our biology. When we are intentional about slowing down our outbreath,
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our exhale and lengthening it, we feel different, We feel prepared for
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what is in front of us. So for me, movement is critical.
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Sometimes splashing cold water on our faces. These are some well researched ways that
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activate the part of the nervous system where we can lower blood pressure, lower
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respiration and lower our heart rate. It's sometimes crunching on something. Sometimes it's
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humming, pacing, singing. Sometimes we don't feel like singing when we're in
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the middle of a conflict. To be honest with you, but a five
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minute walk, you know, just journaling for a moment, reaching out to
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someone that you trust, just sharing some frustration. There are so many ways
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we call these. Resourcing our own nervous systems and knowing when we nourish our
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nervous systems. First of all, we have to be aware of when we're
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dysregulated, and many adults are not aware. Many parents and caregivers are so
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in the fray with the behavior and with the emotions that are heightening that you
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know, we're not aware of how we are unintentionally escalating everybody around us.
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And that's not blaming or shaming. That's just being aware that when my heart
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starts to raise, when I start to get hot and I feel blotchy,
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I can feel it. I can feel neat in my body. When I
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get angry, my ears buzz a little bit, I get a little lightheaded.
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There are lots of ways that our bodies are always talking to us,
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but we're not listening. And that's something that I'm learning every day as I
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work with students. I'm a new grandmother, so I get to do words.
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Yeah, So you know, it's really just thinking, Okay, can
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I make a list and can I commit? Can I hold myself accountable to
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three in the moment practices that when I start to feel that dysregulation, that
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I can reach for those practices that I know and you know, begin to
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ground or to begin to root my nervous system so that I'm not mimicking or
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mirroring the behavior of my children, right, so we're not so reactive.
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And I love making a list and prepping that ahead of time because in the
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moment it's so so hard to call on those resources and to really think through
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things and be logical, right, because our thinking brain is sort of dimmed
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and not as accessible. So, you know, as a person with anxiety
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and social anxiety myself, that's a skill that I have learned over time.
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Prepare for what might happen, know what you're going to do if it does.
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And so you know, I had my own things that I did when
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I got triggered with my own kids. I've been on this journey with my
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kid for fifteen sixteen years. I only started learning about the autonomic nervous system
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maybe four years ago, and I was obsessed, Like, I was so
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obsessed that I started doing this work. And we certainly when we were kids,
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nobody was talking about this, But we need to be teaching kids and
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adults like your body's giving you signals as you were talking about, what is
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it trying to tell you? And how can you work through that both physiologically
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and sort of emotionally or whatever it is called for in that situation? Right,
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how do we integrate that more for our kids so that this comes part
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of their normal to help them through life. Well, so you said something
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a minute ago that sparked something I wanted to share, and we begin to
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integrate these on great days. We don't reach for these practices when there's a
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crisis. Yes, that's something that my daughter Sarah and I talk about a
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lot. Is she is also a teacher, and in her first year of
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teaching, she was so overwhelmed and she had a lot of anxiety and she
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would say, Mom, I would come home and I would sit on the
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couch and freeze. I just I couldn't answer a text. I couldn't plan
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for the next day. I mean, she was just overwhelmed. And so
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she began to lay out her running shoes walking shoes, and she had them
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in the place where she like, right in front of the couch, and
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we talked about it, and I said, Sarah, if you start taking
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that twenty minute run or that ten minute run or a five minute walk every
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day, then on those days where you feel stuck, disconnected, untethered,
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those running shoes will be much easier to put on and you can take that
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five minute walk. So it really is about practice and repetition change neural structure
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and function in the nervous system, not just the brain, but in the
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nervous system. And the more we do something with repetition, then we literally
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build circuits that you know, become hardwired. And there is this fatty kind
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of like a it's called a Milin sheath, and it covers the axon of
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the neuron and this helps It's kind of like a conductor of electricity. So
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the more you do something that you know becomes thicker and it supports that connection.
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And so there is automaticity and fluidity in our actions when we have practiced
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them, and to teach our children this like, this is the work.
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It begins with us. But then the second part is we are so quick
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to label kids, you know, with we do it through our schools.
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We classify, we give kids rulings. And I grow so weary of that
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because then we begin to identify with our limitations and we don't identify with the
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strengths that we have that can be such significant assets and not deficits. We
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need to be reaching for more than normalizing anxiety. We need to celebrate it.
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We need to thank systems for working constantly to protect us because we're all
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created for survival. What a difference that would make, you know. I
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wish somebody had taught me to do that me too, after decades of anxiety.
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Wow, what a difference that would have made if I would have been
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like, thanks for protecting me. Yeah, And then what else can I
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do right to sort of settle my nervous system? And you talked about many
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of those what I call regulation activities. The humming, the splashing cold water,
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blowing bubbles is a big one that I recommend with younger kids because they
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love it and it just brings joy, right, It just changes the tone
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not to mention that it's actually helping our nervous system to settle. And I
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have started recently advising for parents to build regulation activities in their day to day.
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If you're going to ask your child to sit and do homework, you
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need them to focus. What can we do to prep their nervous system so
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that they can focus? And you know your story with your daughter and the
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running shoes, Now we can take that even a step further. Can we
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put some reminder visual reminder of that activity right there where we do homework?
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Right, Make it a part of that activity every day when we get up
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in the morning. What can our kids do to prep them to be able
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to tap their executive functioning and get ready for school? Right? And the
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same I think is true for us is what you're telling us. We also
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need to put those in our own routines. Yeah, and knowing and I
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know that you know you share this probably with parents, But the brain it
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works so well with predictability. We need predictability. We need rituals, We
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need routines so that our nervous system can make those associations we can predict base
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on the past. That can be really challenging too, when we think about
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how trauma impacts spans. But our brain nonetheless is a social organ, it's
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an experienced, dependent organ, it's a historical organ. So routines and rituals
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and predictability are so necessary for all of us, but especially for those of
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us who are you really challenged in the moment with some of those anxious,
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overwhelming sensations and knowing you know what to do because we don't think clearly in
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the moment when we're in survival states. So when we have access to those,
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when we are as we say, in the cortex, then we can
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work through that with more ease. Yeah. I remember the big turning point
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for me as a parent was when I heard the term amygdalah hijack and that
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it actually cut off physiological access to the thinking brain. Because I am a
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rationalizer, I just wanted to talk him through it, right, I just
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wanted to help him, But it never worked, and usually it made it
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worse. And I could never understand it until I started to understand the nervous
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system and the brain and how these things are connected, and that behavior is
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so biological. We just don't talk enough about that. And I'm so glad
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that we're starting to we're really going down this path through your work and the
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work of others, and it's so monumentally helpful for the adults because we're the
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ones who need to know it. We're the ones who need to help kids
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through things. Do you want to give maybe a few classroom strategies or classroom
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ideas for regulation, both I think for the teachers, but also for kids,
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because it can be more challenging in that environment when you have a lot
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of kids, or when you're trying to get through all of the things that
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you're mandated to teach them. Do you have a few helpful strategies for that?
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Well, you know, it's really about our procedures. That's what I
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share with teachers and with students, and you know, all year long in
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every classroom when we have you know, twenty five thirty five forty kids in
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a classroom, you know, procedures are very important and we have to teach
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those, you know, and usually as an educator, we're teaching those for
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a significant part at that school year. One of the things that is critically
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important is that we build these practices into our procedures. So I always say,
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what does your morning meeting if you're going to have a morning meeting with
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the class before the day starts. We sometimes call it bell work or do
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now or bell ringer work, but it's really the first ten twenty minutes of
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class. And it's true for middle school and it's true for high school.
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We have to be intentional about meeting our students where they are so that might
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be a nervous system check in. We have lots of templates and we have
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really fun ways for students, you know, and staff that they can check
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in. And it's true for us in our home. I'll ask my students.
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They'll come in and I'll say, share with me a snack or a
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piece of candy that represents the nervous system state you're in right now. So
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if you're in your prefrontal cortex, if you're ready to go, they'll share.
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I've heard like I'm popcorn, I'm light, i love popcorn, I'm
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bouncing in all the best ways. I'm ready to go in my fight or
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flight, i might be talkies and so I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm hot,
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I'm feeling spicy, edgy, and or if I'm in shutdown, I've heard
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I am vanilla pudding. I am up a gum. I have no flavor.
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I want to spit it out so good. So we have lots of
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fun ways that we can check in and help our students be aware of how
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they're interacting with the environment, and then also to help get them up here
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into the cortex so they can access those executive functions. Yeah, I love
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that so much, making it so relatable for kids and for adults, Like,
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neuroscience isn't always the easiest thing to understand, and we could all use
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some analogies and some easy ways to really identify what's going on for kids in
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their bodies and to get them thinking about their bodies, because that is not
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something that I knew as a parent to do. I had no idea what
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interception was. I had no idea that we should be focusing on how the
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body feels. And as a person with anxiety, like I get very clear,
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very signals from my body, right, sometimes my nervous system is like,
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hello, I'm not going to let you ignore us, right, And
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so for me, I guess I just imagine that everybody got the signals and
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they were pretty clear, and that's just not true. And I think sometimes
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with our neudvergent population, we have to work even more mindfully on that body
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awareness. But just building it into the day to day and what you're talking
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about too works for all kids, right, So for teachers who are listening,
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this is helpful for your entire class, not just those neurodivergent kids in
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your class. Right, exactly, and again applied to educational neuroscience. It's
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a tier one framework, but we can also build it into tier two and
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tier three where we can provide and be very intentional about the frequency of the
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practices and the intensity of the practices. Because we all come into this world,
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into our schools, into our classrooms with very different embodied experiences, different
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ways that we've process, different ways that we learn. I think that is
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the work. It's to really differentiate and meet our kids where they are.
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Yeah. Absolutely absolutely tell everyone where they can find you and your work.
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So I have a website that is Revelations in Education dot com and it could
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be overwhelming to anyone's nervous system just because there's so much there. Yeah,
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but it's for parents, it's for educators. Everything that we've created, I
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would say ninety percent of it or ninety five percent of the templates in the
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website are free, they're downloadable, and they're yours. I love that,
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so please enjoy that Revelations in education dot com and we will link that up
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in the show notes which are at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com Slash two seven
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to two for episode two hundred and seventy two. Thank you so so much
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for the work that you're doing in the world, for being here and sharing
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some of your wisdom, and I really encourage everyone to go to Laura's website
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take advantage of these resources. The stuff that we're talking about will change your
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life and your kid's life. It really really will, so I encourage everybody
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to do that. Thanks so much again, Thank you, Penny. I
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just want to let everyone know that I'll see you in the next episode.
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Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If
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you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check
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out my online courses and parent coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at
25:48
the Behavior Revolution dot com.