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What I've Learnt - Rosie Batty · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sadly, it was tragedy that brought Mother Australian of the Year Rosie Batty into the limelight.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: On an otherwise ordinary day in early 2014, her only child Luke, an effervescent 11-year-old, was at cricket practice when he was killed in front of her by his father.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was a brutal, incomprehensible act carried out amidst children playing sport on a summer's day, and it shocked a nation.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Twars later, she bravely stood before the press, determined to bring family violence into the public arena.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Surrounded by microphones and media outlets, she spoke.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Family violence happens to everybody, no matter how nice your house is or how intelligent you are.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: It happens to anyone and everyone.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this has been an 11-year battle.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Almost empathetically, reflecting on her ex-husband, she continues, No one loved Luke more than Greg, his father.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: No one loved Luke more than me.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: We both loved him.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: In that moment, she woke Australia up to the complexities around domestic violence, the scourge of a mentally ill father in a family court battle that ended up in a tragic loss of life.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this month, the domestic violence horror trial featured in the media again.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Despicable and beyond comprehension.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: More than 35,000 defendants faced court last year, charged with breaching domestic violence orders, one of the key mechanisms for protecting victims of abuse.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And while 87% were convicted, most received a non-custodial sentence.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Advocates called for a tougher response as it emerged Queensland mother of three Kelly Wilkinson allegedly burnt alive by her estranged husband in her backyard.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: A nine-month-old Kobe Shepherdson taken by her father over a dam wall in South Australia were both the subject of court orders.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: But for Rosie, in the midst of her sorrow, her Australian of the year appointment became a lifeline for her, the only survivor of her family.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: What is clear is governments have a key role to play in strengthening this national approach.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: The upcoming National Summit in July provides an opportunity for all Australian governments to renew their commitment to creating an equal and safe society for all women in Australia and guide the second national plan to reduce violence against women.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is critical that this new plan provides an ongoing roadmap for a continued long-term coordinated and truly national approach to preventing and responding to this violence.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Rosie, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining us to tell your story.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Rosie, you and I spoke a few years ago for a private project that I was doing with a philanthropist.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: You were in the throes of speaking tours, educating, and media engagements, all while reeling from this huge tragedy.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that time in your life and how you got through it.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Look, it seems to be such a blur.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: It seems such a long time ago now, but it certainly gave me, as we said, a sense of purpose and meaning as I felt driven that this was a period of time to help force change or to initiate with a catalyst for change.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I spoke at over 250 events alone that particular year of me being an Australian of the year.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't include meeting with media, um philanthropists, powerful leaders of large organizations.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And my my grief was palpable, it was raw, and I think people could not be touched.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: And when you do connect with people, and they certain certainly then see that this issue is something that involves everybody because it's likely that even if you haven't got your own personal experience, you will indeed know somebody, either a work colleague or a family member or a friend, or someone, where I think that in the past, you know, people thought phone device was something that happened to you know other types of people but didn't see the connection to themselves.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that um, you know, in that that really crazy time, which actually went on for nearly three years before I kind of realized I I really need to put some serious boundaries and some serious balance back into my life.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I, you know, I think everybody, sorry, not everybody, because it's everyone has their own journey, but a lot of people who have experienced something very tragic or um um or catastrophic do feel compelled to make sure that the people don't go through this same experience and that they need to find some sense of purpose from something that's been um that's really uh uh uprooted their lives.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think it's it's quite a healing thing to be able to do um as you force yourself through the pain to to actually do something purposeful that that may potentially make help create change.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So Rosie, that is interesting.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that um there were quite a lot of obligations and that you would need to speak to a range of people and that there were a lot of uh there was a lot of interest from politicians and media to talk to you about the issues at hand.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just fill me in a little bit about that.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um well, there were no obligations.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, certainly what I chose to do was completely my choice.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: So even though I was a strain of the year, it doesn't come with any set of um you know commitments that you have to meet.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's really an award that you can take with great gratitude and disappear, or you can use it as a platform to really escalate your cause.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I chose obviously to plough myself into making it an opportunity that contributed to change.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea really what was ahead of me and how probably successful that was.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to say that if it wasn't for the media, there's no way I would have been able to have the cut through and create the the change that I um uh you know people acknowledge that I have contributed to.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: But whilst you're juggling a lot of media interest, you're also juggling a lot of other people and organisations wanting to uh benefit, not just benefit, but actually make the most of the interest that you've generated.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so that can be, you know, very leading politicians, even prime ministers, who are recognize this is a social issue that that certainly is not going away and really needs to be recognized for what it is.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you you know, you have those moments in time where you have political interest, societal interest, media interest, and so all those things combined did actually really contribute to um me being incredibly busy.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And um I wasn't, you know, everything felt really important to do, everything felt incredibly important, and it was very difficult to say no, and so I said yes more than I ever said no, but it is unsustainable, and at some point, um, you know, we all have to reflect on where we're at in our lives and how how we can have a better balance and start to integrate things into it um that are not just consumed by work or by communivence.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: We we do need to look at how our mental health is tracking, and and I I don't think I was the best judge of that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't know that we any of a bizarre, but when you know people who are concerned for your welfare and know you well start to say to you, you know, um, I'm very concerned for you, and you start to recognize that you really need to um start listening and putting yourself first, and that that can be a very painful process because whilst you're immersing yourself with all of this busyness and this work that is you know that you're being acknowledged for and you feel like you're being heard and validated and and huge regard and respect, it's it's it's you know, you're you're also um distracting yourself from real healing.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And at some point you have to acknowledge you can't continue to do that forever.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's your way of coping, and we're all cope differently.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's when you are at a stage where you are ready to feel more pain and go deeper and and um and sit with that discomfort rather than trying to numb it or run away from it or do anything to avoid it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that that's you know, that is a it's a painful journey, but it's a necessary part of the journey before you can start to kind of begin your recovery towards a way of living that um doesn't close the door to your past and to the pain, but it it helps you to kind of work out how you integrate it and live with it as you move forward to things that give you more joy, more happiness and peace and and and and reconcile all of those things.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: I I look forward to as a society understanding the impacts of trauma more because there's an awful lot of young people whose lives are um are really sent on a trajectory of addiction and high-risk behaviours and even criminality based on unresolved trauma and the way that we have responded to um you know in in ways that have failed people.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's we we talk about trauma very freely, but I don't know that we truly understand how trauma and PATSD really impacts people's life and what it looks like for people as they live with it, and how it may isolate and alienate people from um you know from people that care about them as well.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's it's a very difficult process.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a multifaceted uh problem, but it's also complex, and obviously there are different sorts of trauma.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you've demonstrated is that for a time, being able to have a platform to talk about the issues in the outside world and which made a huge difference in raising awareness, you also then had to retreat and protect yourself for a time, and now you've come back in another form with new awareness, and that's also a benefit to you and to the community.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: On that note, do you think things have got any better?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think, I mean, there's still one to two women die a week from domestic violence incidents?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: That is just beyond comprehension for most people.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yet it's continued.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that things are getting any better, or do you think I'm talking about actual traction as opposed to, yes, we're we're talking about it, it's that we've got awareness campaigns, we've got new legislation, which is good, and there's a few things we'll discuss.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: But what's your perspective, Rosie?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, look, I think we always knew that things would get worse before they got better.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And there are a number of reasons for that.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: And certainly, no, I don't think things have got any better when you look very starkly at, as you've mentioned, we have at least one woman a week being murdered.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the statistics um are horrific.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Police and the call-outs and the actions um on a daily basis are overwhelming.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you've got to look at, I guess, some of the how I keep going and having hope for change is you have to look at where we've come from.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so, as much as I would have loved to see statistics be, you know, reduce and change, that's a we're a long way from that.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: But what we do know is that more people are reaching out for help, more people are recognizing that they are in a domestic violence situation, and they are reaching out for either support or help.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: What unfortunately happens is it's very difficult for those people who do reach out to be genuinely protected and genuinely supported.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Our systems are still failing people.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's a long journey, and many who work within this space understand the importance of trying preventing violence before it starts, which is long, long-term, changing our attitudes, changing our behaviors.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and whilst we certainly need increased funding, increased um responses to funny violence, we also need to do the the work where we we are looking at well, why why is a bias towards women and children happening in the first place?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: What is it that we can look to change?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what we're still waking up to recognise.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um we still live in a very unequal world, women are still under not seen as equals.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so those are the areas I think that um when we look at the work we we we really have to do to ensure that future generations of women don't have the same experiences that we are.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's a difficult road for people to understand what that may involve and how we all individually may need to look at how we view the world and each other, and how we what we individually need to do to change that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so um that's the area that gives me that hope.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but certainly those the women and the people already in a critical and violent situation, you know, the damage is already done.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um but many women are likely now to receive a more respectful response from police than they were 10 years ago.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even though Kelly, I mean, that you know, this this uh tragic case of this young mother of three Kelly, you know, the family came out and said we went to the police 10 times, you know, during the weeks leading up.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: They tried everything.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was quite shocked by the complete uh, you know, they were sort of sent away almost as if they weren't, I mean, it wasn't dealt with.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think there actually there will be um an investigation into that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: So these kind of outcomes happen all the time, and I can't speak to that particular case because I haven't looked at the details.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: I do try, unfortunately, um to protect myself from a lot of the cases that of these terrible murders because it's it's really I can't move forward in my life when I take well while I take on board every single murder, but I I and the details around it.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: But as soon as I hear something, I know exactly what's happened, and I know exactly that it will be when she's planning to leave or has recently left, because that's when a woman is at the highest risk.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and unfortunately, often the children again are at high risk as well, and and and that was my situation.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the only protection you can really have is an intervention order.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: It can be called different things in different states, but it really is a piece of paper, and that's the only protection you have.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: But it can't stop someone from murdering you if their genuine intention is to harm you.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, these are all of the difficulties that everybody faces when you know, has the violence been minimized, have we um disregarded genuine fear?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what are the police able to do in those circumstances?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, you can't put people in prison and throw away a key.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, prison isn't the answer either.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a solution when you're in extreme risk, but it's not this, you know, it's not going to stop violence from occurring.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And often somebody that's imprisoned will come out and resume the violence.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's no guarantee that you stay safe.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, you may have a period of time where you you feel a degree of safety while they're incarcerated, but they come out.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I've met these women who often have to change names, change where they live, the state that they grew up in and the families around them, to have anonymity because they will never be safe.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: The only real safety you have is if that the perpetrator who is choosing to be violent decides not to be violent anymore.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And often that is because they may have moved on to another unfortunate victim.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a good point.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, repeating the same pattern.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: On that note, it it's interesting you say that because recent trials with offenders being fitted with GPS trackers has proven 70% effective in reducing re-offending.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts around that?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it sounds draconian, doesn't it?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: But it it it it as you point out, often they're on to another victim, and there's no it's very difficult to have these conversations because there is no real solution to stop violence unless the perpetrator actually chooses to stop being violent.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: So you can put uncle bracelets on people, and why wouldn't you to to guarantee a degree of safety for a period of time?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: But you can't wear an uncle bracelet for the rest of your life.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no guarantee of ongoing safety.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're only safe while you're using the tracker and you're you're able to um, and and so you know, what happens with that perpetrator?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Are they seeking to change?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Are they being supported into men's behavioural programs?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's all these opportunities for change, but again, there's a lot of complications surrounding that, and there's a lot of red tape, there's a lot of shortages in in these programs and delays and all the rest of it.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: So this whole crisis area is is is terribly, terribly um conflicting because governments do not address the seriousness of this issue.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: They do not support the organizations working with women, keeping them safe with adequate funding, long-term strategic funding.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's you know, it's very difficult for organizations to function as they could if they had the full support and the full opportunity.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and and they're always overstretched and they're always um struggling.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it does so it it's it's a really difficult area.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the workers and the people and the organizations just work tirelessly, and of course, during COVID, it's put added pressure and burden.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was about to say, yeah, because that's increased, the domestic violence incidents have increased dramatically through COVID as people are you know uh thrown together, unable to escape, it puts women in extremely vulnerable positions.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and and of course, you know, one of the biggest problems is isolation, and if you are uh you know unable to reach out or and and unable to socialize or unable to, you know, kids to be at school, all of these things are red flags and and and the in an ideal environment for a perpetrator to really be able to um exert more power and control and um and and more abuse.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I you know it's it's an incredibly difficult area.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a very difficult job for the police as well.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is a very difficult area.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we do need to continue to improve our police response.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: We have some excellent police, but we do need to have a better response.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: We need to keep working towards that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and certainly in Victoria, we have a lot of investment in changing of police culture, changing of police response.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: But it's you know, it is it ever going to be enough?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: It takes generations and it takes time.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's unfortunately, you know, we still condone violence, we still um minimize the risk, we still don't believe victims, we still blame them for.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Not leaving.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, so as we look at all of where we've come from, I see how we've changed.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I do see that we are much more supportive of women, particularly experiencing family violence and recognising that it is more often a male perpetrating violence.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas some years ago, when I first started talking about this, there was a very a lot of discomfort in acknowledging that fact.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people will, men and women, will say women are also violent.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: But our statistics are glaring and irrefutable, where it is, of course, we know some women are violent, but it is overwhelmingly men.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that awareness is really understood more.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that we're improving our understanding of, you know, one of the key drivers or the key driver to violence towards women is gender inequality.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're starting to really recognize the importance of working towards equality for women and how that will ultimately in time be the source of the improve.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Improve the culture.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that having more women in the police force and in the court system, so like lawyers and judges, are going to do you think that helps change the conversation and give a new lens, even though independence obviously is critical, by having you know, the the re redressing the balance?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's the problem?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think a better gender balance and improved gender balance in the police and throughout all of the responses is a given.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's very important, but you you have a patriarchal model and you fit in with that patriarchal model.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so it doesn't matter whether you're a female policewoman or a female magistrate, you're fitting into patriarchal systems.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: So until we address those imbalances and recognize that systems are based on a patriarchal model, I think you start to recognise how much change is outside of an individual, systemic, and that's the big work, you know, the big, big work, um which has been very well recognised for a very long time by people campaigning and advocating for change.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, as this as it's got to be systemic.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying it's got to be a systemic change.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the news this week that Tinder and other dating apps will now report sexual violence to the police is quite welcome, even though it seems a small step.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: When you consider how many people are on those apps and how that can sometimes be the first gateway to a violent offender or to somebody who has no sense of respect for women, I thought that was an interesting step.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think they're all steps towards um improved responses, but again, um, yeah, it it it's such a big issue, and um they're all positive changes, but there isn't any one solution, you know.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's as I said, I think that for me that it's looking at how can we prevent violence before it starts, and and and that comes down to the way that we all view our place in the world as and and um and seek to respect each other.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that so yeah, it's everything that you see people working towards um greater acknowledgement of discrimination, um, racism, sexism, um, all these things are connected, and I think that that certainly creates an environment where we're all going to have a better, you know, better um quality of life and better in um interactions with each other.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I think we're we're very quick to think the responsibility lies with somebody else and not necessarily recognize the part that we play and how we may unintentionally create um contribute to the problem.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and I think that you know some of the biggest advocates for change happen to be men with daughters, and them certainly not wanting their daughters to experience the degree of sexism, um, potential abuse and um discrimination that they know is exists.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a very important point because they've got sisters, they've got mothers, they've got daughters.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: There is talk, the federal family law court has um implemented that judges are now going to receive training on domestic violence issues, including on recognizing coercive control as part of a push by the courts to better protect the safety of children and families.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: The training will be delivered to all family court and federal circuit court judges by the end of June.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: The Chief Justice, who heads both the courts, said the training was aimed at providing safer outcomes amid a focus on the shameful prevalence of family violence in our community.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, how the courts address this issue is also pivotal because if you have, as you say, men and women on in the court system with a deeper understanding of the complexity of domestic violence challenges, what are your thoughts around that?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think the family law court system is an appalling failure, and I know that the family law court has had training on family violence for a long time, um, and I'm not sure what different types of training, um, but I do have grave concerns about its integration into the Federal Circuit Court.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not in touch with the current changes.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: I found that the as I campaigned for change within the family law court system, I found that actually was exhaustive and overwhelming and unrelenting.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the degree of failure that continues to put children at risk disheartens me greatly.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um I've worked and campaigned with the family um with um women's legal services for five years for certain things to support in their five-step plan towards change.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um we were successful in one or two things, but ultimately um it's an incredibly difficult area, very complex area.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, Rosie, in 2016, the then Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said of domestic violence in Australia that cultural change requires a great advocate, and Rosie has been able to do that in a way that I think nobody has done before.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in June 2019, you were appointed an officer of the Order of Australia and the recognition of your distinguished service to the community as a campaigner, an advocate for the prevention of family violence.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: You stood up so bravely and publicly and spent so much energy raising awareness, but once the media noise subsided, where did you go and how did you find time to recover and what what helped you recalibrate for for listeners who are finding themselves needing to recover and recalibrate and heal?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me a little bit about some of the good things that have come to light.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think you know, we are all different and we all do have a different path to tread, and what works for me may not work for others, but certainly um I've always I grew up on a farm, I have always liked being outside, and I've always loved animals.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I found that my dogs I've always not the same three dogs, but I've well, you know, they always had three dogs.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I spent a lot of time walking on this very rustic beach that's quite close to me, and you can walk for hours and have a lot of privacy and a lot of space.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: You can cry into the wind, you can, you know, you can be free to really let your emotions come to the surface.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that sharing time with an animal like a dog who's just very present and joyful and fun-loving, it really helps you to come back to simple pleasure in life.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, so I will say that the walking on the beach, I mean all elements of weather is was really invigorating and healing for me.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's important to have things to look forward to.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd always wanted to walk uh great walks of around the world, and even before I had Luke, I trekked in Nepal, and um just thought that was the most amazing experience I've ever had in my life.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I after I lost Luke, I thought, well, I can, you know, I'm no I I have an opportunity to with more flexibility and freedom to explore adventures, and so I have resumed that quest to walk in amazing, beautiful parts of the world, and um and that for me is great healing because it is physically challenging.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you do, I think it's like it's it's quite meditational, really, because you're literally just down to the simple task of putting one front in front of the other and getting from A to B through amazing scenery, sometimes challenging weather, with comrades and people who are good company and and you can sit in your own space and walk on your own, or you can chit-chat and be social.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's that's really helped my recovery.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think you know, certainly I now have moments of sadness, but I'm not consumed with battling them on a daily basis, and so I think that that's an indicator to me that you know I have found a space where life generally is is good, and and I think you know it's always important to have good friends, nurture your relationship with your family.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I do like good food, so I enjoy going out and being social, but I also really treasure a lot of my own time and my own space.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I've found a balance where I I can sit and due to COVID, I've really had to do that too, for long extended periods of time being really quite isolated.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: And there were times that I struggled with that, and I think like we all did, particularly here in Victoria, where we were really in lockdown for a very long time.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that you know, if you spend too much time on your own, I certainly found that I felt, you know, fell into patterns of ruminating and and it can be too much, and I but then I think that I did go into further layers of grieving for Luke that I perhaps hadn't been ready to do, and sat with that as well.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think life for me is a journey, it's about continuing to learn, um, it's about continuing to gain insight and wisdom, the courage to say, I'm sorry, to seek you know, forgiveness from people that you feel like you've failed, or let down, or upset because of your trauma or your PTSD, where they may not have understood your behavior and and and judged you for that.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, there's there's a lot of reconciling, I think, that you you do as as you journey forward.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: And um you're very, very thankful for the people that have stood by your side, no matter how difficult it has been.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: You really, I've always very much appreciated that.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I get a lot of, you know, my father who'll be 89 this year, um, he's a really good man, you know, showed me the value of friendships and loyalty and generosity and kindness.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, COVID for me and the period of time where our life was kind of put on pause, really helped me slow down, take stock, reevaluate, and think, well, where am I heading and what kind of future do I want to have?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I don't know that I've got all the answers, but I feel as if I'm on a path um that's that's that's taking me to a good place as opposed to being a bit lost along the way.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: So well it sounds like Rosie, you sound like you are actually in a good place, and also that you've learnt a lot, and and that that ruminating, as you referred to, and that introspection has led you towards a hopeful future.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: You sound hopeful, and you sound as if there's a there's an anchoring and a centering in your voice that I can I can pick up on.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so just finally, what what are your hopes for the future?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something that you're really passionate about that you'd like to create or do or pursue?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love that the hikes and the walks, that sounds amazing, and and as the world opens up more and more, you'll be able to go further afield.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: But even in Australia, there's so many wonderful walks.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, well, I'm going on a walk, a hike in Tasmania, which is raising money for the Australian Childhood Foundation.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I I was supposed to do that last year, so I I get to do that this November.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: I've got my fingers crossed.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually doing a horse trek in the Kimberley in July, which I'm quite apprehensive about, but it will be an adventure that, and the reason I'm apprehensive is just because you know, I'm nearly 60, and I tell you what, my bones ache.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I'm I'm busy doing Pilates and rumping at my exercise, so I'm not quite so unfit.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, when you're not used to riding a horse, you're you know, it doesn't matter how fit you may be, you're at you you will ache in spaces and areas that you would prefer not to.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I did a horse trek um in the Victorian High Country a couple of years ago, and it was exhilarating and fantastic.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I was encouraged to do it again, um, and this should have been last year.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I do like to stretch myself and do things that are adventurous or something I haven't done before.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: I did volunteer um to work with orangutans three or four years ago now um for a month in Borneo.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Borneo.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've done that.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful there.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's stunning.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gorgeous, they're so human.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're so human, it's really, really sad.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, again, just embracing opportunities to do things differently or meet people and you know, opportunities come to me still to speak.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: I I've never stopped speaking, but um, you know, may not be so much in mainstream media, but I certainly do um involve myself quite a lot with other work um for you know with for the equality of women and and and young young girls particularly.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I do still do things that I feel are meaningful and um and how I and I'm actually looking and planning to write another book.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: So my first book was far more successful than I'd ever anticipated.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just merely wrote it um because I had that opportunity given to me and felt it was a real honour.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it was so successful that um I I'm so very pleased I I pushed myself to do it.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I decided to push myself again and extend myself to write another one around hope, something that I like to be able to share because I'm like a lot of people, you know, we not just women, but I think a lot of us all suffer from the same problem, which is you know, imposter syndrome, we're not good enough, talk ourselves out of doing things that we think we may not be good enough to do.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I found that incredibly challenging all my life actually, but certainly since losing Luke.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's about pushing myself out of my comfort zone, um, believing in other people that tell me I can do this and until I realise and trust that I indeed can.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes I lean on others who I trust and and and know that they wouldn't wouldn't say to me um those things if they didn't mean it.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I I sometimes look for that external reinforcement to get me across over the line.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I do look forward to next year, um, but I think we've got to live in the present moment.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm busy practicing mindfulness and being present, and you know, I am very grateful for a lot of the good things I have in my life because I am very fortunate and um it's it's helped me over the past 12 months where I've I've done quite a lot of work remotely.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I've really valued this time at home without having to travel to airports and be away from my family of dogs, and um so yes, I think it's been a good good period of time.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, we've all struggled in varying ways.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's not been easy for for anybody, but I've I've been very fortunate through this to be able to build on.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to thank you so much.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: We are so grateful for you telling your story, for being the advocate that you are, and for coming on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait to read the book and hear what you do next, and you're going to have a wonderful time in the Kimberleys, I have no doubt.
• 40:49
  unknown: Thank you.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to make sure I stick on the horse's back and don't fall off.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that's my end game.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: You don't fall, you don't bounce so well when you get older, I tell you.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: You do anything to hold on.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it looks like you're holding on pretty well.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, Rosie.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Dave.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this month, my weekly podcasts come to you courtesy of the Witchery White Shirt Day campaign, raising funds for the Ovarian Cancer Research Foundation.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Shirts created by designers, including Tony Matachewski, are gracing everyone from ambassador's comedian Celeste Barber to politicians like Julia Bishop.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: So go grab your own white shirt from Witchery and Camilla and Mark stores across the country.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Every dollar helps fund urgently needed research into the treatment of this insidious disease, which affects over 300,000 women daily worldwide.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yet no early detection test exists.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: For the sake of our sisters, daughters, mothers, and grandmothers, let's get this early detection test to clinical trials in five years and save millions of women globally.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: We can do this.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Ovaries, let's talk about them.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind and curious.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Love deck.