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Altering Dementia w/ Dr. Fayron Epps · HEW Talks Podcast

• Dr. Pascale: welcome to another episode of Hue Talks, where we discuss the historical, contemporary, social, and political factors that impact the health and well being of black and brown communities. Today we're discussing dementia in black and brown communities, an observance of National Alzheimer's Disease Awareness Month coming up next month in November. For those who are unaware, Alzheimer's disease is a type of dementia. And according to the Alzheimer's Association, dementia is a general term. For loss of memory, language, problem solving, and other thinking abilities that are severe enough to interfere with daily life. Alzheimer's is the most common cause of dementia. I thought I'd share some facts and statistics before we get in today's show. White people make up the majority of people with Alzheimer's disease in the United States, accounting for 5 million people living with Alzheimer's disease. While white people make up the majority of people living with Alzheimer's disease, African Americans and Hispanics are at a higher risk for Alzheimer's disease. African Americans or black people are twice as likely than white Americans to have Alzheimer's and other related dementias, while Hispanics are about 1.5 times more likely than white people to have Alzheimer's and other related dementias. While the rate of Alzheimer's disease and dementia is higher among African Americans and Hispanics, they are less likely than white people to have a diagnosis of the condition. And so when they are diagnosed, they are diagnosed in the later stages of the disease. Joining us today to discuss Alzheimer's disease and related dementias in black and brown communities is Dr. Fayron Ron Epps Dr. Epps is an accomplished nurse scholar who brings a wealth of expertise and experience in caregiving, strongly focused on improving the quality of life for families affected by dementia. She has devoted her career as a nurse leader to reducing health disparities for underserved populations through innovation, culturally relevant programs for the African American community. Her primary career goal as a nurse scholar is to enhance the quality of life for families affected by dementia through a combination of research, education, and service. Dr. Epps is the founder of Alter Dementia and specializes in evidence-based practices that promote a higher quality of life for African Americans with dementia and their family caregivers. Her research is particularly focused on exploring how religious activities and spiritual connectedness can foster meaningful engagement among persons with dementia. In addition to her work with Alter Dementia Dr. Epps oversees several faith-based research-related projects, and she is also a professor and associate dean of nursing at Georgia State University. Welcome to Hugh Talks once again. I am your host, Dr. Pascal. Let's get into the conversation. Hi, Dr. Epps. Welcome to HEW Talks Podcast. I am so, so excited to have you on and engage in this conversation about Alzheimer's disease and dementia within black and brown communities and really have you provide your expertise on the topic and also share the work that you're doing through Alter dementia to address Alzheimer's disease within the faith-based communities. How are you today? This Labor Day. Dr. Fayron Epps: Your flavor day. Hey, I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. Dr. Pascale: so I guess like what we'll go ahead and do then is really just kind of jump in and talk about Alzheimer's disease and dementia as like a health equity issue and really just kind of narrow in on the issue of Alzheimer's and dementia within black and brown communities. So essentially, you know, from the statistics when we look at Alzheimer's and dementia rates across black, Hispanic, and Asian communities compared to white communities, what do these disparities actually look like? What factors Are driving the disparities in Alzheimer's and dementia among black and brown communities? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, I think what those what does it look like and the Alzheimer's Association puts out a facts and figures report every year and comes out in the spring. And in that report, they have been reporting for probably over a decade that African American blacks are two and a half like twice more likely Than their white counterparts, those with a Hispanic background is one and a half more times likely to be diagnosed, Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: experience signs and symptoms of dementia. And I think we want to clear this up because you said Alzheimer's disease and dementia. And we use those terms interchangeably, Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: but dementia is a big umbrella term, really recognizing those signs and symptoms that where you have cognitive impairment that also interferes with decision making, even behavior. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, there's different things. Things that can really fall underneath there. And there's over a hundred types that can really contribute to those signs Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: and symptoms of dementia. And Alzheimer's disease is the most common type. But in communities of color, so in our black and brown communities, we tend to see vascular dementia, which is a disruption of the cardiovascular system. And what causes that disruption would be the diabetes, the hypertension, the chronic kidney disease, all of those the strokes that. That tend to happen in these communities more often than our white counterparts. And Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: that what contributes to maybe African Americans, the Latinx community having more incidents or have a higher prevalence of some form of dementia, but particularly it's gonna be vascular dementia. Dr. Pascale: Okay. So what I'm hearing you say then is that Alzheimer's disease is somewhat of a comorbidity of diabetes vascular. Am I right in like my thinking? No? Dr. Fayron Epps: No, no, no, no. I wouldn't say that Alzheimer's disease is the most common type of dementia. Dr. Pascale: Dementia, huh. Dr. Fayron Epps: What I was saying about diabetes and hypertension, those are contributing factors to vascular dementia, which is another yeah, which is another Dr. Pascale: Okay, vascular dementia, gotcha. Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: common type of dementia. And then you have Lewy Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: body frontotemporal dementia, mixed dementia. Dr. Pascale: wow. Dr. Fayron Epps: We can go on and on. Dr. Pascale: Okay. And so and then to reiterate your fact among African Americans, the most common is vascular dementia. Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes. Dr. Pascale: Okay. And so when when we're talking about the gaps related to, you know, Alzheimer's or dementia, I'm gonna s just stick to gem dementia, right? When we're talking about that, looking at the gaps and disparities among black and brown communities, how much of that gap or the disparities is explained or due to structural factors like healthcare access bias versus what typically gets attributed to biology and lifestyle? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, I think as we're in this dementia space, it looks just like it looks for any other health conditions, right? Any other diseases. So structural factors and when we look at the in healthcare systems, there is this bias that exists, right? We have people that are exhibiting signs and symptoms of dementia. that also identify as black and going in and sharing this but then they're hearing from the provider that no you don't have this. they're their Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: their concerns are being dismissed. Also Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: you're interacting with the healthcare system, no matter what you're what it may be, you're going in for pain or whatever. I mean, just historically many black and brown communities are they just don't get the same response. Right. And so I'm gonna tell you, I don't think it's dementia looks different Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: when you're interacting. It is the The same same experience story as if you were interacting with the healthcare system for another condition. same exact stuff. And I think you know, what I've done as a researcher, I've been recognizing this gap, right? Really Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: working with a team to see how we can develop solutions to this problem. and since I'm in the space of of dementia, focusing on family caregiving, I actually developed a program called Caregiving While Black, which to Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: me is one piece of the solution, but You just sometimes we can't just see that gap and say, well, yeah, that's just how it is, Cause ten that's what people tend to do. And we Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: we just cannot keep doing that. And so I really want to stand on and say, No, I may not can fix the system, but what can I do? So if Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: I can develop a program that can empower black caregivers and acknowledge the unique experiences that they have when they are caring for someone with dementia, well, let me develop that program. So now when they interact with the healthcare system, they can be more at a, I'm not gonna say it's a the level feel will come become even all the way, but it'd be they'll be at a higher ground than maybe what Dr. Pascale: Bye. Dr. Fayron Epps: they were at the beginning. And so that's my work there. And then my other work is working with faith communities through the Alter dementia program. And again, that's to fill in the gap. Dr. Pascale: Well. Dr. Fayron Epps: Those gaps that you say exist and being able to now build up the capacity of our faith communities to be able to serve and support these families that have been affected by dementia. So they don't have to wait on the healthcare system to serve them. I'm giving I'm Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: equipping our faith communities now, our places of worship to serve them. Dr. Pascale: And I might be jumping a little bit, ahead in my questions and everything. But I wonder too, can you talk about or maybe like speak to if like for example a person is going and they feel like they might have like, you know, certain signs or or a family member might notice certain signs among their parents or whatever that they might think might be, you know, signs of like early onset dementia and what have you, right? But they're going to their provider and their provider is dismissing that, right? Those concerns. What recommendations do Do you have how how do we navigate that? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah. Well no, and that is I mean, especially, you know, I'm I'm in my forties, so a lot of my friends we're we're at that space. It we're Dr. Pascale: Yep. Dr. Fayron Epps: we're we're we're in there, right? What do we do if we notice this any in in our aunts or our own parents? And so one of the things is I always tell family members you have to go if you can go into the doctor with the person you're concerned with, but you have to bring documentation. Many Dr. Pascale: huh. Dr. Fayron Epps: times we do not do that. And so I need documentation for the past thirty. Days, what have you been saying seeing? Because when we Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: get in there and we're just like we're just spitting off stuff, right? That's just what's happening. You're spitting off, you're going here, there. It's not an organized thought. Where if you have it written down, then that is something because your doctor really probably has 15 minutes, or your provider. Yeah, Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: 15 minutes, and so you can get as much as you can, but you also can have this written down that you can share with them, and sometimes they can see a pattern. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: They are able to look at it and see a pattern. So that's one of the biggest things that I always tell families: make sure you bring some documentation with you. Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: if you've done a screening in the community, and so there's many events may do a memory screening, Dr. Pascale: Uh-huh. Dr. Fayron Epps: you bring the results of that memory screening. If you've done an online memory screening, there are some programs out there that does that. And we work very closely with mybraindguide.org. And you bring that paperwork to show. So again, you have to bring evidence to say, hey, this is what I've been seeing. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: so that will help them. Help you and let you know where you need to go. If you're still getting dismissed because someone may say, you're too young. I've heard this. you're too young. You don't look like you have dementia. And dementia is not a look because I will tell everyone that's listening, dementia does not discriminate with age, race, or gender at Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: all. So you can be in your thirties, early forties and starting to show signs and symptoms of this. And so please don't let someone say you don't look like you have dementia or no. Mm-mm, you're too young. And so if you get that, then you need to follow up with another provider. Because get your second opinion. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, get a second opinion, yep. Dr. Fayron Epps: And I always tell people, ask them to draw labs because there are conditions that mimic dementia. So when Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: I go out and I speak about this, I you know, I always tell people, I'm not saying, you you have dementia, you have dementia. No, no. You have you we should be concerned and we need to go to the provider. And the Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: first thing they should do is draw labs. Because you can have a vitamin B12 deficiency, you can be dehydrated, untreated urinary Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: tract infection, thyroid problems. All of these things can contribute to those signs and symptoms of dementia. And once they're corrected, Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: then all of those signs that you just return back to baseline. And so, you know, you want to go to that provider that's gonna say, okay, let's run some labs. And if they don't say Dr. Pascale: Mm. Dr. Fayron Epps: it, then you ask, Hey, can we run some labs? Dr. Pascale: Right. Okay. I love that. b having things documented and then also advocating for yourself and your or your family member and asking for labs and then if you're still getting dismissed, find another provider. Dr. Fayron Epps: Find another provider and we family doctor, if you're someone that's older, like sixty-five and older, you may want to go to the geriatrician. Dr. Pascale: Uh-huh. Dr. Fayron Epps: a neurologist is also good, but you know, I have to tell you there's a shortage of geriatricians and neurologists. So, you know, I I think I don't want to say, it's easy to get an appointment with a doctor. I also want to just share the reality that it may Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: be a six month out appointment or eight month Dr. Pascale: wow. Dr. Fayron Epps: out appointment, depending on your area that you're living in. So I always want to make sure that I just be really transparent based on the knowledge that Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: I I I have and share that with the community so they'll know, okay, I know these steps, but I also know the reality, it may take time. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: So that means don't wait until the last minute, y'all. That means as soon as you start noticing something, because I've how many times I've heard this? Yeah, you know, about two years ago, we I noticed something, but I Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: just like, whatever. But now, now two years later, we're in crisis mode. Where Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: back then we could have made an appointment and it may have been 11 months out and that would have been fine, right? Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: You could have still you kept tracking things and stuff like that. So again, listeners, please do not wait to the last minute. Do not wait until we're in crisis mode. Let's try to be proactive and it may not be dementia. It could be something else that can be treated Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: with a a a pill or something like that. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, and I I like the fact that you said there are so many other things that might mimic dementia but not isn't necessarily dementia. 'Cause I I I I also I guess like maybe want to touch on do you find that there's like a certain level of fear as far as like if it is dementia and that kind of like holds people back from seeking care earlier on rather than later on? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, so it is. And I think the fear, there's fear associated with it, there's stigma associated with Dr. Pascale: Uh-huh. Dr. Fayron Epps: it as well. It's just all mixed in. And then also the fear can come from the lack of knowledge about it. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: But then the fear also can come by you you're very knowledgeable about it. And that there is truly not a treatment out there. There is a drug, a drug that has came out if you're in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: that possibly could slow it down. But, still that, we're in the beginning of that. And so that fear again could be the lack of knowledge, y'all, or it can Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: be, hey, I know. That there is no cure for this and many times people look at this like, This is it. I can't do anything. I won't be able to drive. A death sentence. Dr. Pascale: Like a death sentence. Dr. Fayron Epps: I won't be able to work. I'm gonna and I when we're working with our communities, we're trying to alter. That's where y'all get, y'all see alter, alter dementia. We're trying to alter their perception on how they look at this. Because just because if you are diagnosed with dementia, it's not a death sentence. You can still live, Dr. Pascale: Bye. Dr. Fayron Epps: you can still thrive, and that's why it's important for you to know, okay, what is this? And once you become Dr. Pascale: Uh-huh. Dr. Fayron Epps: more knowledgeable, you'll know. What triggers certain symptoms? You'll know how you can put things in place so you can still continue to live by yourself. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: There's people I know that still live by themselves, but they have a lot of aids in place, right? To Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: help them. a lot of technology is out that can help. But when we don't know, and we say, no, what I don't, what, what says what what I don't know won't hurt me. Is that how that saying goes? And Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: it will hurt you, y'all. It will. Because when you don't know, then people are going to start getting confused. They're going to get confused, right? They're Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: not going to understand why you keep repeating yourself. not gonna understand why you may accuse somebody of something that is really not accurate. Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: and it can cause a lot of family conflict. It also can cause your bank account to go zero. Because if you're not sharing with somebody what may be going on, this is when you have the people that are really into fraudulent activity, your scammers that can come in, Dr. Pascale: Yep, they'll take advantage. Dr. Fayron Epps: they will come in and take advantage. And so I Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: want to really speak to our family members that are out there. If you notice something in another family member or friend or if they're sharing something with you, please take it serious. Cause if we don't take it serio serious, the scammers will and I've heard Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: too many stories how retirement savings have went to zero. Yeah, Dr. Pascale: That's wild. Dr. Fayron Epps: so we really this is something that we have to take, have to take serious. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, I agree a hundred percent with that. especially with like not letting the fear hold us back as far as like getting the early care or diagnosis that we need so we can get ahead of it at the very beginning instead of trying to deal with it on the back end. so yeah, Dr. Fayron Epps: Mm mm. Dr. Pascale: thank you for that. let me see. Do I wanna? I'm gonna actually move on to the second portion of our interview questions as far as Alzheimer's and d and or dementia risk and prevention right so we Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah. Dr. Pascale: talk a lot about like dementia affecting us but there are ways of like preventing it or delaying it right so what do we know about modifiable risk factors for Alzheimer's disease and dementia or dementia I should say is like the umbrella term Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, yeah. No, this is really good. And I use the term or phrase risk reduction. All Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: right. So how can we reduce our risk? And the work that I'm doing now, we are really out there trying to really promote brain health. Cause you can Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: do this across the lifespan. And the US Pointer study, they released this not this past summer, but summer of 2025, the Alzheimer's Association. Had worked with some researchers and it's called the US Pointer Study, and they came up with a brain health recipe. Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: And and it actually, you know, no matter which arm it was a randomized controlled trial, and no matter which arm you you were assigned to, you still they seen positive outcomes, Dr. Pascale: Gotcha. Dr. Fayron Epps: right? And it was all based on lifestyle modification. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: So you're gonna say, well, what are those four things in that brain health recipe? Let me see if I can remember those four things. Number one would be your monitoring, monitoring your health, knowing your numbers. That is so, so important. So routinely checking your blood sugar, checking your blood pressure, doing the memory screenings. Again, that is really important. physical exercise Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: is important as well. Then we have our diet. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: And you know, they are promoting that Mediterranean diet, but Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: also in the black community, we have to recognize that we have to see how those factors in that Mediterranean diet aligns with any cultural diet you have. And so we've been working in a community talking about how we can bring in nutritionists, dietitians that really do understand different cultures and try to line it up. Dr. Pascale: Hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: And then I'm missing one more thing, right? Let me what I say I let me Dr. Pascale: You said know your numbers, physical activity, and then diet specifically looking at the Mediterranean diet, but also making it like culturally inclusive as far as speaking about diet within black and brown communities. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes. And I'm getting that last one for you right here. That lets you know. I I should have had it all together w for Dr. Pascale: Take your time. You are good. Dr. Fayron Epps: y'all. I'm so sorry. I Dr. Pascale: No apologies needed. Dr. Fayron Epps: I should have had it all together. and I'll see I have to take my glasses off. So it was physical activity. I should have known this. Social. Social activity. Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale: Okay, social connectedness. Okay, social okay. I wanna briefly 'cause up okay, just for y my personal curiosity, I'm big into physical activity, right? And so I've been listening or hearing t tidbits about strength training. an ounce or dementia, reduced risk, right? when it comes to dementia. So i is that a thing? the more you lift. I think I read something the other day about there was a study on two twins or whatever, right? And the twin that did like more weight lifting, you know, had a lower risk of, you know, developing Alzheimer's disease. It so i is that a thing or is this is just I don't know, things that are still in development. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, so I don't know the latest Richard research about weightlifting or strength training. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: I do just know how exercise has a positive impact. And Dr. Pascal, I wanna also correct, like when I was saying the social activity or connectedness, it's also coupled with cognitive stimulation. Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: as well. how important it is to kind of challenge your mind, your brain and you know, that maybe getting out there interacting with people, being part of conversations. Dr. Pascale: And let me also ask you too, with cognitive development, is that in addition to being social and engaging with people? mentally, I guess like when I think about like cognitive, I guess like enhancements, I don't know, things as simple as like games, a a puzzle game, something to keep your reading, right? th something to keep your brain engaged. Like what type of examples could you give? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah. So I think puzzles and reading is fine, but it's gonna be what's gonna challenge your brain. So that's the key key word, is challenge. You don't Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: want to do a crossword puzzle on the easy level. Dr. Pascale: Gotcha. Dr. Fayron Epps: You want something that's gonna take you at least a minute, a minute and a half to figure out where this is. So it's the challenging Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: piece. That's why, we we've always heard it's good to learn a new language, good to play, Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: learn a new instrument, good to go back to school because those are things that are challenging your brain. Even though at a certain age, I know, my own mom, I don't wanna do nothing. Dr. Pascale: And that's my mama too. Dr. Fayron Epps: I didn't do I didn't do everything. I it's just for y'all young folks or something like that. But I push back. Because you're we can learn at all ages and it's actually good for us. Good Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: for our brain. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, I tell my mama that all the time and my mom is 60 and I'm like mummy come on you're still young come on Dr. Fayron Epps: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale: So I get that so okay so the things that the four things the four brain health recipe factors include knowing your numbers physical activity diet having a healthy diet and then also social you said I I say social connectedness but is it social Dr. Fayron Epps: Well, they use the term ek cognitive exercise. Dr. Pascale: Cognitive exercise got you. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes. And doing that three times a week for thirty minutes plus regular engagement in intellectual and challenging intellectual challenging and social activities. So Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: if someone was to just go to the US Point of Brain Health recipe, it's what they can type in and those Dr. Pascale: huh. Dr. Fayron Epps: things will come up and it'll give them specific examples. And I would tell for all the listeners, be on the lookout. I say for the next year, two years, you're gonna be seeing a lot. about the brain health recipe, you're gonna see a lot more programs implementing lifestyle modifications because it was it's really big in reducing your risk with dementia. part of this recipe that's not mentioned because I'm also part of the Global Health Brain Global Brain Health Council. One of those but Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: we talk about what's not what I didn't say here it's also about sleep. How important and I bring this up because in the black community, typically we and we still do it, we pride ourselves on being able to function off of no sleep. Right? I just have four, I just need two hours and I could go. And then sometimes we're put in situations where we cannot sleep because we have to work two jobs. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, overnight, yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: And so yep. And so I'm very mindful when I go out in the community and I talk about how important sleep is, I also know the reality of many Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: of our families. And it is like, well, what can we do just to increase the amount of sleep, what that means? And it's making us more aware of that. So if we can get, the the the hours that they're saying is seven to nine hours consecutively. If we cannot get that seven, can we strive for five? and I Dr. Pascale: Bye. Dr. Fayron Epps: always ask families, can we just work to just do more than what we're doing now? And let that be that starting point. But I don't want to go in any of our communities and just make that assumption that all of us have nine hours to sleep because especially Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: in our community, we don't. We we we do not. We're often, especially our grandparents, many times they're helping raise the grandchildren. Dr. Pascale: Yep. Dr. Fayron Epps: And it's just so much that goes into that. So I do want to recognize that, but also speak to how important it is for us to get sleep. Dr. Pascale: Yeah. I love how you spoke from the terms as far as meeting people where they're at and recognizing that like yes these are the recommendations but they don't it's like like it's not a one size fits all approach. Dr. Fayron Epps: No. Dr. Pascale: You have to meet communities where they're at and to your point, like you know, w we're doing all the things just to survive and sleep might be our last priority. So I love how you said, you know, just if it's just five hours, take those five hours. and then hopefully maybe you can work your way up to more. so I love Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah. Dr. Pascale: that approach. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes, yes. So I wanted to bring that up. Yeah. And then I work with the in the churches and the pastors and y'all know they don't sleep. Yeah, call your Dr. Pascale: No, they don't. Dr. Fayron Epps: pastor up tonight, tell him to go to bed. But you know, but again, that's a prime example. Many times they have a full-time job and then when they come home, they're now pastoring in supporting their congregation and answering those calls. You know. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: Then they still have their household to take care of. And then before Dr. Pascale: Families, yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: we know it's midnight and then they need to get up after. So, or they're getting called to the hospital late. So I think again, you know, we just have to recognize how many folks in our network, Dr. Pascale: I have to Dr. Fayron Epps: how they our life is not set up to sleep. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: But what can we do? And I worked with Dr. Glenna Brewster where we identify sleep ambassadors within a few of our churches. So when she educated them, she trained them and stuff like that. And so I'm looking forward to seeing those results and seeing what those next steps are. But, you know, that's just how important sleep is. Dr. Pascale: gonna talk more about Alter dementia, a little bit. I have a couple Dr. Fayron Epps: yeah. Dr. Pascale: of qu but I do like the concept of sleep ambassadors. Can you speak a little bit more to that? Dr. Fayron Epps: we're gonna have to get Dr. Glenna Brewster. She's gonna have to do that. I I partnered with her. She had the network. And you know, I just know, you know, sh each church had to identify who was gonna be the sleep ambassador. And then she actually had a training that they would go through. So they'll be very knowledgeable about sleep. And so they would be that go-to person in that congregation. They also can pick up on other things that may be going on because of the lack Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: of sleep. And they'll have resources that they can tech can connect their parishioners, their fellow parishioners to. So, but Dr. Dr. Pascale: Love that. Dr. Fayron Epps: Glenna Brewster, she is the one, she's at Emery. she I think it's called the A Glenna? Glenna. G-L-E-N-N-A. Dr. Pascale: Glenner? Glenda or Glenna or Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, I would love to learn more about that. Sleep ambassadors. That's real cute. All right. okay, so we talked a little bit about the modifiable risk reductions or risk factors to dementia. but I also want to talk about a little bit more as far as when we look at like the context in which communities live in, right? we think about, for example, like food access, chronic stress, and healthcare access all show up as barriers to prevention, right? so how do these systemic factors intersect with the people's with people's individual choices and how they influence dementia outcomes among these communities Dr. Fayron Epps: Well, I think again, I don't think this is specific to dementia. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: I I think these berries that you just mentioned, they impact individual choices because if you're living in a food desert or a food swamp, whichever one you want to call it, swamp with all this fast food, desert without with with Dr. Pascale: Ha ha ha. Dr. Fayron Epps: no health food, no healthy foods, then your choices are very limited. If the Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: corner store is the only place you could go, we know what they sell at the corner store. And it's not no fresh milk. Dr. Pascale: Right. That part. Dr. Fayron Epps: And it's not no bananas, you know. and they've had projects projects where they've tried to put these healthy foods, but then they spoil and it becomes very costly for a corner store to maintain Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: this. And so you know, we may say, Well, is this how the system is set up? That is for the listeners to answer. But again, those things, where you live matters. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: It truly matters. but one of the problems is it matters for your health, but it also matters for your safety. I can just speak to myself. I chose to live in a a healthcare desert and in a food desert because the safe I knew I wanted my kids to be safe. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: Right? and so it influences our decisions and then you have to say, Well, am I gonna be willing to travel forty five minutes to a doctor just so my son can walk down the street and I Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: can't be at have peace. So yes, that exists and if you don't again, you know, if have to travel an hour and a half to go see a doctor, are you gonna see a doctor? Dr. Pascale: Not Dr. Fayron Epps: No. So, those why it's so important for us to advocate. I have to say where I'm staying now. I'm so it brought me to tears that we finally have a ER, you know, Dr. Pascale: Wow. Dr. Fayron Epps: and and then and and what's what's so bad and it's not about your socioeconomic status. I just said this last week. Where I live, you it is not low socioeconomic status. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: You would find a lot of people, you know, you me being in Atlanta Metro era, you have a lot of artists, you know, just a lot of Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: soup, you know, people that are in the media that live in this area, you would think it would be flooded with the things that you need. And it's not. Dr. Pascale: Right. But nah. Dr. Fayron Epps: So it does not matter of the class that you're in, right? And Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: again, it can make people question, well, is this how the system was set up? Dr. Pascale: That's whole nother different podcast. Dr. Fayron Epps: That is, that is. So, again, and and then you throw dementia in the mix. So that's why I think your question is is it can be for any condition. And then when you add dementia Dr. Pascale: Agree. Dr. Fayron Epps: in it, then yeah, this impacts us. We do we you You can't go get your screening or you can't do Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: the follow up with the doctors. You can't eat healthy foods. many neighborhoods of that pr where primarily black and brown people stay, could be polluted, Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: or they built a house, you know, could have lead, you know, no no gardens around and stuff like that. And so it's just so much and we know those things truly do contribute. to someone's health and and leads to poor out health outcomes. Dr. Pascale: So let me ask you this question then, because earlier you talked about the brain health recipe, right? Dr. Fayron Epps: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale: Does the brain health recipe take this the contextual factors that black and brown people live in into account? And how does it do do so? Dr. Fayron Epps: So I think we're working through that. So I'm part of a planning team with them and we are and part of my role, I believe, is making sure what you just said is expressed at this table. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: And we don't see everybody is a one size fit all. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: that we do recognize that there's differences geographically, there's differences with cultures, race, and ethnicities, and making sure that that we're at the table and we understand that. And that's why I brought up the nutrition with that example. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: Because we just had this conversation, how you just can't say, Hey, do a mind diet, right? You know, that that's not yeah, that that that that's that Dr. Pascale: w first off, what is that? Dr. Fayron Epps: and that doesn't fit in everyone's culture. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: Right. And so you have to see those principles that's within this Mediterranean diet. How we how we can take those principles and now apply it Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: to a diet that may be more Caribbean driven. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: You know, and and what can we do? And that takes that takes a little work. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: And so I want to share, I I share with everyone that's listening, healthcare professionals, family members, that y'all, this is not easy. It's gonna take work. So the more knowledgeable you become, just know that it means We got to we got to work toward this. It's not Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: gonna be easy. It's not like, here, here you go. There's a recipe and follow it. No, on both ends, both parties have to put in the work if we truly want to see a change in outcomes. And I want to see a change in outcomes because they say, you know, one of the statistics that really brought me back at the beginning of the pandemic was when they told me by 2030, nearly 40 40% of individuals that would be diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's disease or a form of dementia will be black or Latino. And that was 2021 when I learned of that statistic. And it's just like, whoa, that that really lit the fire for me. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: I was already in the space, but that said, no, there's we need to have some urgency to this. And Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: and here we are, we are less than four years away from that 2030 mark. and we are, if we if everyone that's listening, you can think about it, you are learning about people who are showing signs and symptoms of dementia or being diagnosed more frequently than 10 years ago. Dr. Pascale: Right. The awareness is there. Dr. Fayron Epps: Ten years ago I had no clue. The awareness is there. I had no clue that this was going on. and so now I'm like, whoa. Dr. Pascale: Yeah. It it's funny that you well not funny, but I think about my mom cause the other day she was asking me like, Well what are the signs of dementia in Alzheimer's? Right? And I like, Mommy, who you ask it for? Or whatever, but I found it interesting that she was asking about it 'cause like in my nine to five I evaluate, brain health programs. So I was like, Mammy, this is what I work in or whatever. So I was excited that she was asking, but I always also Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah. Dr. Pascale: excited that I can also impart knowledge to her about dementia Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes. Dr. Pascale: and everything. so you're right, the awareness is getting out there. and I think like, you know, we need to continue doing a good job as far as like pushing y'all that information out there too. All right, so I am okay, so now we get to the good part where we talk about Alter dementia and the work that you're doing with dementia-friendly congregation initiative. So I have to just say like when I heard about the work that you were doing, I was really, really excited because like my with my dissertation, I focused on diabetes within faith-based communities. So when you were when I learned about your work doing dementia work in faith-based communities, I was just like, I would love to talk more to you about the work that you're doing. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes. Dr. Pascale: So, I know you kind of touched on it a little bit before before, but can you tell us about a little bit more about Alter dementia and what led you to focus specifically on churches as a vehicle for this work? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, so y'all gotta get my book from Fate to Action: My Journey Healing Communities Facing Dementia. And so that's where I really go into detail about the journey. But Alter Dementia is a program, it's a collaborative where I work with an interdisciplinary team, and our goal is to inspire and equip. our faith communities with the tools, the skills, the knowledge that they need so they can s support their parishioners. They can support their congregation and their community. So it's almost like a train the trainer model. Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: But we want to make sure that the ministry leaders, the leaders have what they need. Cause what we have been hearing through my research was people stopped going to church. The pastor doesn't Dr. Pascale: Mm. Dr. Fayron Epps: understand what I'm going through. People look at us funny. all these different, we we stay with excuses. But these excuses were valid. They Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: truly were valid. Cause then when I loop back to our faith leaders, they did not know truly what dementia was. They didn't have the resources in place, right? They didn't understand that, and I'm not discounting any other health condition, but they didn't understand that a family caregiver for someone diagnosed with cancer is totally different than a family caregiver with someone diagnosed with dementia. Two different Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: experiences. Yes, they have to bring their family member to the doctor, but everything else that happens at home is different. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: Right. These are they have different experiences. And so we are educating our faith communities. We're working with them, like I mentioned earlier, to develop programs so they can fill in the gap. we work with communities in the rur rural, urban, in the suburbs, small churches, mega churches. We work with them all. as long as they have the heart, and they are committed to putting something in place, we are there to support them. Many Dr. Pascale: Gotcha. Dr. Fayron Epps: people think we do the work and it's not it is our faith communities. We are Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: pouring into them, giving them the tangible resources, financial resources, also connecting them with partners so they can develop their programs. And we have a menu of programs that they look through and that they can implement, different initiatives that they can do. And we're there to create a timeline and support them in doing that. Our initial partnership with our faith communities are two years. So they have a Dr. Pascale: Come Dr. Fayron Epps: full two years to see how does this go, does this work. And after the two years, they can stay on board as a legacy partner and help train other churches, or they can Dr. Pascale: I love that. Dr. Fayron Epps: just become a friend of altar. Just saying and realizing, because we also realize sometimes this program may not fit. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: Or them. and it's perfectly it is fine. because it may be something else that maybe speaks to their congregation or their community. Dr. Pascale: You you say that the initiative is two years for church churches, right? I'm curious to know as far as like the I guess like the I I wanna use the word sustainability, but I guess the engagement throughout those two years. Like what does that look like? 'Cause Dr. Fayron Epps: yeah. Dr. Pascale: I know that's like a long time to stay commit. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes, yes. So it varies. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: It varies. we do like a readiness part of so churches have to fill out an application. And so we've learned because it varies, that level of engagement varies. We have learned to based on their application and their readiness responses, we are now able to select churches that we know will be fully engaged. Because yes, some faith communities they do fall off toward the end. and it's not all Always because they're not engaged is that person. One of the things when we're working with faith churches, places of worship, what I did not think about in the beginning, y'all. And I'm just gonna let y'all know. I did not think about Pastors change. They get moved to other churches. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Dr. Fayron Epps: I was raised in a traditional Baptist church where that pastor stayed all the way into the end, right? And I thought every church Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: was like that. But that is not the case. You know, we work with right now 19 faith denominations. All of them are Christian. And so we're working with the CME church, the AME church, the United Methodist. And we're like, wait, you're moving? Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: You just became a partner, and and so that impacts the engagement level because now we have to get the new pastor on board. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: Also, if we're working with a health ministry or seniors ministry, seasoned saints ministry, whatever we want to call it, that leadership changes as well. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: And in the beginning, we didn't really think about that. and so now we're we're dealing with that and we don't have the answer. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: We're just, you know, what we have to do is recognize that and ask people to keep us informed. When is this gonna Dr. Pascale: Right. Gotcha. Dr. Fayron Epps: happen? And we know for the AME churches, it's is it around August? maybe August, but it's a certain month where they make these changes, right? And we're just on standby just to kind of see what's gonna happen. so but I would tell y'all that is, I mean, it it's kind of funny because we didn't think about it. Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: But it impacts the program and and but then it also impacts how the people are getting served as well. Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: And so people may think that the work that we do is easy. It's not easy at all. It's not easy. And based on what I just shared with you, that's one component that makes it not easy. So we are Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: constantly on our toes. We're constantly looking at what are those ways, the best approaches that, you know, when there's a change in leadership, how we can keep serving those families, how that church can still be there for that fam those families. Dr. Pascale: So another question that I have, and this is probably this question is based off of like my own experience, because one of the things that I've noticed while doing my dissertation, I know you don't specifically work with like the health ministries, right? You work with the church as a collective, but one of the things that I noticed is like they Dr. Fayron Epps: No we w no Dr. Pexo stay assigned as a ministry and sometimes we work with the health ministries, yes. Dr. Pascale: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So then understanding that then, 'cause one of the things that I noticed, well, in churches, it's the same person doing the same thing, it it's one person leading the health ministry, right? And it can be taxing. So I'm curious to know, and this is probably where I have to separate my consulting cat, is do you also do you look at like for example with the health ministries, how many people are on the health ministry? Like how long has it been in you know, in existence to make sure that the program, the Alter dementia program, will be sustainable over the two years with a specific congregation? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes, yes. that's really a great question and w we observed this as well. And so what we do now is we recommend that they identify more than one person that we can work with. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: And then we also ask them to go across ministries and don't pull Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: everyone from the same ministry because Dr. Pascale: Yeah, 'cause people will get taxed and burnt out. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, we'll get yeah. So let's work with the the Usher ministry, let's work with this ministry as well, let's bring in the youth ministry and bring in different people. So then you'll have your group. We even have some churches form their own ministry, just a dementia ministry. and they Dr. Pascale: Gotcha. Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: title it that. And so we have learned that and one of the things is on the application, it has to be a minimum of two people. Dr. Pascale: Love it. Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: a minimum of two people that say they're gonna share this. Cause Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: it is it's taxing. It is a lot of work. Dr. Pascale: Trust me, yeah. I was I led our health ministry for a previous church that I was on and I was just like yeah it it is a lot of work and then when I left that church it was just like this is what you know kind of helped inspired my dissertation it's just like how do we have like black churches stand-up health ministries that are sustainable and and it's again it's not just Dr. Fayron Epps: Mm. Dr. Pascale: one person doing it. and I think I have a framework, it's just sitting somewhere on my laptop. But yeah, I think that's where we need to focus on is in addition to like, you know, the work that you're doing, but having them from the ground up build sustainable health ministries to do this work that you're doing. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, and we look at sustainability too as well. And one of our things is we're trying to sh for us to sustain the program is we're trying to teach our faith communities how to apply for grants, how Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: Right now I write the grants to give them, but how can they apply on their own? What can they what Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: proposals that they can put together? And so what we found is that many of our faith communities they don't have the basic paperwork To qualify to be able to apply for these fundings and these resources out Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: here. So then we had to back it up. And we Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: had to actually bring in a consultant to help some of our faith communities get this together. I work with them to show them how to write a grant, how to manage the budget. You know, it's so many things Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: that, especially if you're trying to do some heavy programming. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, you need that infrastructure there. Dr. Fayron Epps: You need that infrastructure. It's more than just us putting on a blood pressure screening in the fall in the spring. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: you're really trying to do that program, you need that infrastructure. And so that's what we've been trying to wrap our brain around and think of the different ways that we can help our faith communities with that. So let me know when you Dr. Pascale: I feel like me too. Dr. Fayron Epps: pull up your model. Dr. Pascale: Yeah, yeah, I think me and you can definitely talk offline about this because not to kinda talk myself up because I got the idea because like I worked for the Florida Department of Health, County Health Department, and I was over like our workplace wellness programming, right? And I was just like, this can be applied to our faith-based communities, right? Again, similar to like what you did, an assessment, seeing where you know faith-based communities are at, right? And then based off of that assessment, looking at what do they need the most support in, and they have like three different levels as far as how we support them. In their ministry development and providing them with the resources and tools that they need. So yes, we I I would love to definitely talk to you offline about like what that could look like. Because I think there is there are models out there to help our faith-based communities sus help set up sustainable health ministries. Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes, I would love that. Dr. Pascale: Alrighty, so I know we're running up on time. I guess I'm gonna skip to this question. what has surprised you most about the work that you're engaged in, either encouraging or challenging, is you've implemented the Alter dementia initiative nationally, because I know you're doing it nationally and throughout the US, right? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yes. And internationally. So we have done work in Ghana as well. Dr. Pascale: okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: what have I was sure that the uptake in the spread of this model? I Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: I think I'm still in disbelief. Cause I started off with just doing education in the community about two thousand and eighteen. Dr. Pascale: Okay. Dr. Fayron Epps: And then thought about a program in two thousand like turning into a full fledged program nineteen. We signed our first church in twenty twenty. And here we are six years later. And I just thought it was gonna be in Georgia and never thought we'll be in twenty seven states and so many communities. So I am still in dis Dr. Pascale: That's amazing. Dr. Fayron Epps: disbelief, you know. I I just I just can't believe it. But it really speaks to when you are when you develop something based on a ne responding to a need of the community Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: and not building and creating something becau because of your own need or because of something you Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: need to do or because it's easy. I think if I would have did something like that, a I wouldn't be in several states and all of that stuff. But I did it because I heard the community. I Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: listened to them. And I responded. Dr. Pascale: Yeah. Dr. Fayron Epps: And I think that's why every day it just I just have to sit back and say, wow. How how did we get here? How do we get here? But as a person of faith, I know I have to recognize the role God has played in this and really Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: order not just my steps, my team's steps. Dr. Pascale: Right. Dr. Fayron Epps: we we have grown spiritually while we're on this journey, while we're helping others, and you know, we always ask you know, we we want to remain in obedience. Dr. Pascale: Mm-hmm. Dr. Fayron Epps: And let him guide us. and that is my daily prayer that we can continue to do this work and he continue to order our steps. Dr. Pascale: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Is as I was listening to you speak, I think you hit it right on the nail, you recognized the need, right? And, addressed that need in in in a in a I guess what I would say like in an authentic way, not just to meet your meet your agenda but meet the needs of the people's agenda if that makes sense. okay, so I love that. so this is the part I'm gonna transition to the part of our this is the fun part because I know like this some of these topics that we discuss on HEW Talks can be heavy. so I like to end with like a this or that session. And so Dr. Fayron Epps: Mm-hmm. Dr. Pascale: I created these questions and they're like really centered around brain health, right? So I'm gonna give you Dr. Fayron Epps: Okay. Dr. Pascale: two options. It's about five quick, you know, this or that segment where I give you two options and you just go with like your gut as far as which option you want to go with, okay? All right. Dr. Fayron Epps: Okay, I haven't had no barbecue yet, so let me see. Dr. Pascale: So the first one is like crossword puzzles or sudoco. Dr. Fayron Epps: Seduco. Dr. Pascale: Okay. morning walks or dance class? Dr. Fayron Epps: Morning walk. Dr. Pascale: Okay. napping or meditating? Dr. Fayron Epps: Napping. Dr. Pascale: Okay. this one and some of them you can say both too. fish or leafy greens. Dr. Fayron Epps: Fish. Dr. Pascale: Okay. board games or trivia night. Ha ha ha. Dr. Fayron Epps: it depends on what the trivia is, but I would say board games. Dr. Pascale: Okay. And then last one, journaling or listening to podcasts or learning something new on a podcast. Dr. Fayron Epps: journally. Dr. Pascale: Journaling? Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Ebbs, for indulging me in our this and that segment. And then also just taking the time to, taking the time to be on our podcast and speak about Dr. Fayron Epps: Mm. Dr. Pascale: dementia and educating our community on dementia and what they can do to either prevent or delay, or just you know, recognizing the signs and being active. proactive as far as like seeking the help that they need. So before we let you go, how can the people reach you or get in contact with you or learn more about alter dementia? Dr. Fayron Epps: Yeah, so we we have a website altereddementia dot com and that's alter a l t e r dementia dot com. And on there there's a contact page, but you can read more about us, or you can also email us as outreach at Alter dementia dot com and we will get back in touch with you if you want to learn more how you can bring this ministry to your church or just have additional questions. also, like I say, I want to put a plug in for my book from Facebook. to action. it is on Amazon, Borns and Nobles, you know, all the major bookstore outlets that you can get it from. I also have a website called drfayron.com. dr f a y r o n dot com where you can just read more about my work. I have a fact sheet in there about you know just questions that you may have about me and so please reach out I am here I know I have a new job so I'm the associate dean of nursing at Georgia State and so I may Dr. Pascale: Congrats. Dr. Fayron Epps: not be immediately able to get right back to you but I will get back to you. Dr. Pascale: Awesome. Thank you so much, Dr. Epps, Thanks for listening to today's episode of HEW Talks. I hope you left today's show with more knowledge about Alzheimer's disease and related dementias than what you came with. In the show notes, I've included Alter Dementia's website if you're interested in establishing a dementia program for your congregation. And I've also included the Alzheimer's Association's website where you can learn more about Alzheimer's disease and related dementias. Until next time, I am your host, Dr. Pascale.