Latest / Military Broadcast Radio | MBR Talk / Athena Hogan: The Harvey Templeton Trial | Part 2

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Athena Hogan: The Harvey Templeton Trial | Part 2 · Military Broadcast Radio | MBR Talk

• 0:20
  Hello everybody, and welcome to Into the Weeds podcast here on
• 0:24
  Military Broadcast Radio. I'm Amber.
• 0:26
  I'm Laura and this is sardine breath trying to get comfy
• 0:30
  again. He was upset that I tried to
• 0:33
  show him off. We look so low on.
• 0:36
  This, Oh my goodness, I I need to figure out my camera because
• 0:40
  I feel like a munchkin, really. But I hope everybody's doing
• 0:45
  well this week. I had a well, we had a busy
• 0:49
  week, but it was fairly uneventful, which is a good
• 0:54
  thing. And definitely could be worse.
• 0:58
  I have been noticeably absent for a little bit.
• 1:01
  I've been pretty busy and you know, some of the online stuff
• 1:05
  was just kind of stressing me out for a little bit.
• 1:07
  But I think it's safe to come back today.
• 1:10
  And I'm, I'm, I'm jumping back in.
• 1:12
  So I think I should be more available.
• 1:15
  Hey, Joy, it's good to see you. Probably I might have something
• 1:19
  to do next week I but I never have plans so.
• 1:22
  Yeah, it's all right. I forgot to tell you guys about
• 1:26
  a play that I got invited to. Hello, Sophia.
• 1:29
  That's crazy. Hello everyone, nice to see
• 1:32
  everyone again. I know I completely forgot.
• 1:34
  So I was invited to the Chillicothe Women on Women's
• 1:38
  Correctional Center or a play and it was called the Wicked
• 1:42
  Step Slippers. Is this done by?
• 1:46
  Was this? I don't know if the artwork was
• 1:48
  done by an inmate or not. Because it kind of looks it
• 1:51
  could be. It could be.
• 1:53
  Definitely could be, but I don't know if this is doesn't.
• 1:56
  Look AI generated or anything? Yeah, it's definitely not that.
• 1:59
  So I don't know if this came off of the actual play that they
• 2:02
  were doing or if one of the inmates did it, but my cousin
• 2:07
  Shelly invited me and she was Sleeping Beauty.
• 2:12
  So that was fun. It was, I can't tell you guys,
• 2:17
  the creativity in the sets. It was all made out of boxes and
• 2:25
  construction paper and stuff like that.
• 2:28
  I have seen way worse at community theaters and at big
• 2:34
  productions, so the. Fact that they got that stuff
• 2:38
  done is really awesome and it gave them like a creative outlet
• 2:41
  as well 'cause I'm sure they don't have a lot of different
• 2:44
  creative outlets they can use or do.
• 2:46
  Most No. Exactly.
• 2:48
  And so it gave the women a lot of ability to showcase their
• 2:53
  talent and, and it had never been done before so.
• 2:59
  What hadn't? The play actually people coming
• 3:02
  in from outside of the prison and actually watching something
• 3:05
  like that. That's awesome.
• 3:06
  So I think there were about 10 of us that got to go in and and
• 3:11
  it's good to see you Vino. I think there were about 10 of
• 3:14
  us that got to go in and we sat with the staff and I mean these
• 3:20
  women did an excellent job. I'm super proud of them.
• 3:24
  So it was just a fun experience just to go into the prison and
• 3:30
  see what it was like. They have a big gym.
• 3:33
  Like, yeah, a huge gym with six basketball hoops.
• 3:39
  Oh wow, is that where they had it?
• 3:41
  Yeah, they had it in the gym and there's a scoreboard and
• 3:44
  everything. I mean, it looks like a
• 3:45
  professional gym. Oh, it's good to know they have
• 3:47
  something like. That, yes.
• 3:49
  So I heard that they have like volleyball tournaments and all
• 3:53
  kinds of stuff in there. So yeah.
• 3:56
  So they invite people from other prisons and they do a little
• 3:58
  thing, a little scrimmage. I don't think they do.
• 4:00
  No no no. But when my step sister was in
• 4:05
  Chillicothe in the 90s, she said that they had a swimming.
• 4:08
  Pool back then. Really.
• 4:10
  Yeah. Well, the prison, the Missouri
• 4:12
  State Penitentiary, it's now shut down, but it's like the
• 4:15
  haunted prison or whatever. I know they had.
• 4:19
  I think they had a basketball court.
• 4:21
  I think they might might have had a swimming pool.
• 4:24
  I think they had like a skating rink or something.
• 4:25
  They had like all kinds of all kinds of stuff.
• 4:28
  Yeah, I forgot about that. That's a very interesting.
• 4:32
  Place baseball. I think they even had, like they
• 4:34
  did have inmates play baseball. They did have like a a huge
• 4:38
  baseball team. Yeah, there.
• 4:40
  And remember Sonny Liston Who? Was a boxer.
• 4:44
  Was a boxer. I think he had the what?
• 4:47
  What title was it before Muhammad Ali?
• 4:49
  Heavyweight. Heavyweight Championship.
• 4:52
  Anyway, he learned how to box while he was in the Missouri
• 4:55
  State Penitentiary. I recently thought I was getting
• 4:58
  a job doing ghost tours there, but it turns out it was not
• 5:01
  necessarily a scam, but it was kind of like a shady company.
• 5:06
  And they weren't even doing it at the prison, they just made it
• 5:08
  look weird online, so whoops. Oh well.
• 5:12
  Well, it would have been fun. It really would have been fun.
• 5:15
  It would have been fun, but hey, shit happens.
• 5:18
  Yeah, anybody has a job for Laura doing ghost tours?
• 5:22
  Hit her up. OK, well, we're going to get
• 5:26
  into Athena Hogan today, and we're continuing with Robert
• 5:33
  Taylor's testimony from the Harvey Lee Templeton's 19801987
• 5:39
  trial in the murder of Athena Marie Hogan.
• 5:43
  Last time Nancy was with me from the Toll podcast and we worked
• 5:47
  our way through Robert's testimony.
• 5:49
  We stopped on page 64 where the defense was questioning him
• 5:52
  about a sleeping bag, a raincoat, and a pillow that he
• 5:56
  said were found in the trunk of the Volkswagen.
• 5:59
  They were also questioning his movements on October 1st, 1986,
• 6:03
  including how long he spent at the Lawton Collection Agency on
• 6:07
  Cash Road. And during that live stream, I
• 6:10
  also brought up something that had been bothering me.
• 6:13
  I knew Robert's younger brother David had dated my cousin, and I
• 6:19
  remembered the tan Volkswagen always being around my grandma's
• 6:22
  house when I was a little girl. But I couldn't really remember
• 6:26
  how my cousin knew David in the 1st place or why the Taylor
• 6:30
  family had been a part of our lives.
• 6:33
  So after the live stream, I talked to my cousin and it turns
• 6:37
  out Robert Taylor, which we called him Bobby, and his family
• 6:41
  had actually lived about 5 doors down from my grandma's house.
• 6:46
  And so that answered quite a few questions for me because I was
• 6:49
  like why the heck? Because we found out in the
• 6:52
  testimony that Robert's younger brother David was only 12 at the
• 6:58
  time I was 7, but I thought that he was like 14 to 16 years old
• 7:03
  is what I thought. But he was only 12 and.
• 7:07
  He was dating. Your cousin?
• 7:09
  Yeah, he was dating my cousin Brandy. 12 OK.
• 7:13
  Yeah, so they were like 12 and 13 and they were dating and you
• 7:16
  know. It's just a little silly.
• 7:18
  Little thing, Yeah, teenage romances and stuff like that.
• 7:23
  Not even teenage at that point. Yeah, really.
• 7:26
  But between what my cousin remembers and what I've been
• 7:28
  able to piece together from the court transcripts, it appears
• 7:32
  that the Taylor family moved out of the neighborhood
• 7:34
  approximately 2 years before Athena was murdered.
• 7:38
  So that raised some more questions for me.
• 7:40
  How long did David and my cousin remain friends or continue
• 7:44
  dating after his family moved? Because I remember that
• 7:47
  Volkswagen being around my grandma's house, but I'm still
• 7:51
  trying to figure out exactly the timeline, you know, So I also
• 7:57
  found out that Robert or Bobby would come over and play Uno
• 8:02
  with my grandma. So he was 25 when this happened.
• 8:06
  Yeah. You know, with your grandma,
• 8:09
  it's OK. I've hung out with my.
• 8:11
  There's still friends that I don't really speak to anymore,
• 8:13
  but I still stay in contact with their family members so.
• 8:17
  Yeah. I was just talking to an old
• 8:19
  friend's stepmom yesterday, so. Yeah.
• 8:22
  So I don't know exactly the timeline of them moving and
• 8:28
  everything, but they moved around 2 years before Athena's
• 8:32
  death and I had always suspected that my footprints were the ones
• 8:38
  that got Robert Taylor arrested because they thought they were
• 8:42
  Athena's. Come to find out they weren't
• 8:43
  Athena's so I had always just assumed they were my footprints,
• 8:47
  but now finding out that they moved two years before Athena's
• 8:51
  murder, I'm wondering OK, were they coming back to our house
• 8:57
  after they moved? Could have had other kids that
• 9:00
  they were around as well. But I understand being a child
• 9:03
  and being like, Oh my goodness, you know, Like, I can imagine I
• 9:06
  probably would have done the same thing.
• 9:08
  Probably freaked out a little bit worse 'cause you know how I
• 9:10
  was. Oh, yeah, you would.
• 9:12
  Yeah. You would have done way more
• 9:13
  than me. Yeah.
• 9:15
  So I internalized it and kept it with myself my whole life.
• 9:19
  I didn't talk about it until, you know, the last couple of
• 9:22
  years. So, yeah, it's been interesting.
• 9:27
  So before we get back into the testimony, I want to pull up the
• 9:30
  Google Earth and take everybody on a little tour of Lawton
• 9:33
  again. We'll look at where Athena
• 9:35
  lived, where Harvey Templeton lived, where Robert Taylor was
• 9:39
  living in 1986, and then at the neighborhood where the Taylor
• 9:43
  family and my grandma's lived. And just to help us out a little
• 9:49
  bit more. So I'm going to bring this up
• 9:51
  real quick. Let me take this off.
• 9:54
  We're just going to put that up there.
• 9:59
  So this is Lawton. This, this whole Gray area right
• 10:06
  here is Lawton. Down here is Fort Sill.
• 10:11
  So there's a clear line from Lawton and Fort Sill, and that
• 10:17
  is actually Rogers Lane where she was found.
• 10:21
  So we're going to go over here. So Athena was found right here
• 10:29
  on 82nd and Rogers Lane. And then Athena lived at 520 NW
• 10:36
  Glendale Dr. And then Harvey's house was, you know, just down
• 10:44
  the street. Let me.
• 10:48
  Yeah. OK, yeah 'cause it looked right
• 10:50
  on top of each other from. Yeah.
• 10:53
  There we go. So it's just down the street,
• 10:55
  literally. So that's where Athena lived and
• 11:01
  that's where Harvey lived. Over here is the Indian Hospital
• 11:07
  and you got I-40 4 right here. So it was very easy and this is
• 11:13
  Rogers Lane. You just get on.
• 11:16
  You can actually get out to Rogers Lane through here or
• 11:19
  through here. And then all the way down here
• 11:24
  is where she was found. That's the famous water tower
• 11:29
  that everybody knows in Lawton. So she was found out here.
• 11:40
  So it wasn't, I mean, it was basically just a straight shot
• 11:44
  from her home or the area where she was missing from.
• 11:48
  It's not technically in the middle of nowhere, but it's
• 11:50
  pretty in the middle of nowhere for not being in the middle, you
• 11:54
  know what I mean? It, it really is.
• 11:56
  And, and I mean, you go further out here and you'll see this
• 11:59
  stuff, but you know, it's all, you're just going down a really
• 12:03
  busy highway and it leads out to the mountains, you know, 'cause
• 12:10
  if you zoom out here, this is the Wildlife Refuge.
• 12:16
  That always calls that a hill. And I mean, it doesn't look that
• 12:19
  impressive from this angle, Mount Scott, but it's very scary
• 12:23
  to drive up. Yeah.
• 12:25
  I wasn't going up there when it was just you and I.
• 12:27
  Nope. No, no, no, no.
• 12:29
  OK. And so I'll just show you guys
• 12:33
  my grandma's house. OK, Let's go to it.
• 12:39
  It'll bring me there. Oh, a little past I.
• 12:44
  Think, yeah, I don't know what that is.
• 12:47
  Carnival. Oh wow, sorry all you random
• 12:50
  people that are now on this channel.
• 12:52
  Oops. Yeah.
• 12:54
  So that's actually the Great Plains Coliseum.
• 13:00
  OK, that went a little wonky. Where did we go?
• 13:04
  Where's Grandma? Grandma's house, This is right
• 13:09
  here is this. Your grandma Walker.
• 13:11
  Yes, Grandma Walker. OK, so that looked.
• 13:20
  Like it went a little. That was my grandma's house.
• 13:22
  That right there was my grandma's house.
• 13:25
  And if you just go 5 doors down on East Avenue, it's 123 or oh,
• 13:42
  it's down here. OK, a little further.
• 13:45
  So this was where Robert Taylor lived.
• 13:51
  So that's why the car was always in my vicinity because my
• 13:58
  grandma raised me basically. So I was there until she I was 8
• 14:04
  or 9. After she had her stroke.
• 14:08
  Then I lived with my parents full time.
• 14:10
  I. Didn't realize even that you
• 14:12
  didn't live with your parents when you were a baby or like a
• 14:15
  little kid. Well, I mean, I was there off
• 14:18
  and on, but I was mostly with my grandma.
• 14:21
  So that's the reason why Robert Taylor's car was so close to me
• 14:28
  all the time. Hey Cherokee girl, I did miss
• 14:30
  you. Good to see you.
• 14:34
  Yeah, it's a much larger area. It's actually Lawton's a a
• 14:39
  pretty big town, so, but it's mostly military and then we've
• 14:44
  got Goodyear and all that stuff out there, so we're going to
• 14:47
  remove that. Oh, you didn't have to do that,
• 14:49
  Cherokee girl. Don't.
• 14:52
  Be giving us money girl. You need your your money for for
• 14:56
  your treatments and stuff. But thank you.
• 15:01
  OK, so now we're going to get into the let's remove this.
• 15:09
  OK? Now we're going to get into the
• 15:11
  transcript. OK, So we're going to make this
• 15:18
  bigger. We're just going to start off at
• 15:23
  the top of page 64. Like I said, we were talking
• 15:28
  about where Robert Taylor was that day, things that were in
• 15:33
  his car, things like that. So they're just trying to shore
• 15:38
  up the timeline. So it says what did you know
• 15:41
  when you got ready to leave after being out there?
• 15:44
  A little after 8. What did you do then a little
• 15:47
  after 8? Yeah.
• 15:48
  You left 17. Excuse me, what time did you
• 15:51
  leave? 1716 Cash Road?
• 15:54
  And remember, that is where he was at his new job or his
• 16:02
  collection agency job. He was like a freelancer, but
• 16:06
  this was his first day doing it supposedly.
• 16:09
  Or something like that. I don't know.
• 16:11
  It's a little murky because in other testimony it sounds like
• 16:19
  he was doing odd jobs for this guy and doing some collections
• 16:23
  for him. But then it also said that this
• 16:26
  was his like, a first official day.
• 16:29
  So odd. OK, so it says.
• 16:33
  And what did you do? Where did you go Then?
• 16:35
  I went from there to 52nd and Rogers Lane.
• 16:39
  And did you drink any of that beer at that time on Rogers Lane
• 16:42
  and 52nd? I did, yes.
• 16:45
  It had been sitting there in your car for over an hour and
• 16:48
  you went ahead and drank that one.
• 16:49
  Is that what what you're telling us?
• 16:53
  Yeah. It wasn't really a job, Joy.
• 16:56
  It was, it was a he was helping his friend out, I think is what
• 17:00
  was going on. So it had been sitting there in
• 17:03
  your car for over an hour and you went ahead and drank that
• 17:06
  one. Is that what you're telling us?
• 17:08
  I'm not. I'm not a connoisseur.
• 17:11
  What did you do with the beer can?
• 17:12
  I threw it out. Not only drinking and driving,
• 17:15
  you're also littering that night, right?
• 17:18
  Contributing to the employment of people that pick up the cans.
• 17:22
  Oh my goodness. I figure if they're going to
• 17:25
  waste their gas to pick it up, they ought to have something to
• 17:28
  pick. Oh, kind of a crusader, are you?
• 17:31
  I wouldn't say that at the preliminary hearing.
• 17:34
  Mr. Tannery was the District Attorney at that time, is that
• 17:37
  correct? That's correct.
• 17:40
  I think he was handling the case at that time.
• 17:42
  That was before Mr. Schulte won an election, right?
• 17:46
  Yes. Or maybe he had already won, but
• 17:49
  they hadn't changed office or something.
• 17:50
  I don't know what the deal was. When you first asked questions
• 17:54
  about what happened out there that night, you never did
• 17:57
  mention anything about Pam Condit, did you?
• 18:00
  Could you repeat the question, please?
• 18:02
  Yes, Sir. When Mr. Tannery was asking you
• 18:05
  questions, when you first came to the stand at the preliminary
• 18:08
  hearing to tell what you knew about this incident, you never
• 18:11
  mentioned anything about Pam Condit when Mr. Tannery was
• 18:15
  first asking you questions, did you?
• 18:18
  I don't know. While I'm going to let you look
• 18:21
  at the transcript here and read it over the court, Mr. Zelps,
• 18:25
  this is an appropriate time. It's after 12 and during the
• 18:28
  noon recess. You can allow the witness to
• 18:30
  look that over. This would be an appropriate
• 18:33
  time for us to recess. Return at 1/30, 1:30 PM.
• 18:37
  There upon at 1:34 PM, court resumed with the jury in the box
• 18:41
  and all parties present. The court.
• 18:44
  You may proceed, Mr. Zelps. Mr. Zelps.
• 18:49
  Thank you. Bye, Mr. Zelps.
• 18:52
  Mr. Taylor, you will recall that you're Underoath.
• 18:55
  Yes. All right.
• 18:56
  Now, during the lunch recess, did you have an opportunity to
• 18:59
  read over what I was requesting you to read?
• 19:02
  Yes, I did. And during that, back at the
• 19:05
  preliminary hearing, when you and Mr. Tannery was first
• 19:08
  questioning you, asking you questions, what you saw, what
• 19:11
  you did. You never mentioned anything
• 19:13
  about Pam Condon, did you? He never asked.
• 19:17
  That's correct. You never mentioned it.
• 19:19
  Right? Right.
• 19:21
  You didn't know I was talking to Pam Connor at the time of the
• 19:24
  preliminary hearing, did you? I didn't really care, Sir.
• 19:28
  Do you find something humorous about this?
• 19:31
  No, I'm not even laughing. I just.
• 19:34
  You weren't laughing when you were sitting in the same chair
• 19:36
  Harvey. Harvey Templeton was, were you?
• 19:39
  I never sat there. You were charged with first
• 19:42
  degree murder, weren't you? Now you know, do I, would it be
• 19:48
  out of line for me to just object?
• 19:49
  I don't think it's necessary. I came here to tell the truth
• 19:53
  and to cooperate and I've been intimidated and I feel bad about
• 19:56
  it. I want to help you as best I
• 19:58
  can, Mr. Zelps. Judge, I'm going to request this
• 20:03
  witness request the court to instruct the witness that that's
• 20:06
  a non responsive answer for him not to do that.
• 20:10
  The court. Mr. Witness, if any objections
• 20:13
  need to be made, the District Attorney will make them.
• 20:16
  You listen to council's questions and you answer his
• 20:19
  question and you do not volunteer information.
• 20:22
  Mr. Taylor. Yes, Sir, by Mr. Zelps.
• 20:26
  You didn't think it was humorous when you were sitting here in
• 20:29
  this chair, did you? I never sat there, Sir.
• 20:32
  When you were charged with first degree murder, you didn't find
• 20:35
  it humor. You didn't find it too humorous,
• 20:37
  did you? No, I didn't.
• 20:39
  You've been laughing today, haven't you?
• 20:42
  If I don't laugh, I'll cry. Yes or no, Mr. Calvert?
• 20:47
  Your Honor, I object. This is really irrelevant to the
• 20:49
  issue. No, I haven't been laughing.
• 20:53
  The court asked and answered by Mr. Zeltz.
• 20:55
  Also, Sir, you claim that this is a farce, haven't you?
• 21:00
  I've claimed that what you were doing here is not really
• 21:03
  consistent with what I think the people intended when they
• 21:06
  outlined this procedure. Sir, you have claimed this to be
• 21:10
  a farce. You understand what the judge
• 21:12
  just told you? I claimed that I, Mr. Zelps, one
• 21:16
  of these times, I'm getting ready to ask him to cite you for
• 21:19
  contempt. Mr. Calvert, Your Honor, all
• 21:23
  object. This is argumentative.
• 21:25
  Serves no purpose. The court let me see counsel out
• 21:29
  of the hearing of the jury. Mr. Calvert, I don't want Mr.
• 21:32
  Zelps being argumentative, but your witness, and he's your
• 21:36
  witness that you called and he's not responding to the court's
• 21:39
  directions. Do you want to talk to him?
• 21:41
  Give him a chance, Mr. Calvert. I've talked to him, Your Honor.
• 21:45
  I told him to go in there and tell the truth.
• 21:48
  I've talked to him several times.
• 21:51
  The court, Well, as long as he is not obeying the court's
• 21:54
  directions and is creating a situation that creates the
• 21:57
  argumental questions and argumentative conduct of
• 22:01
  counsel. I'm not going to I'm not going
• 22:04
  to sustain your objection, Mr. Calvert.
• 22:10
  All right, Sir. He is my witness in the sense
• 22:13
  that I subpoenaed him. That's about it.
• 22:15
  End of conference at the bench by Mr. Zlps.
• 22:19
  Mr. Taylor. Yes, Sir.
• 22:21
  Now, I think I've asked you this question.
• 22:23
  I want to be sure. The question I've written down
• 22:26
  here is is is it true that you had your lights off out there on
• 22:30
  82nd St. Did you ever have your lights
• 22:32
  off? I flashed them off.
• 22:36
  OK, where did you see the car that Pam Condon was in on 82nd
• 22:41
  On 82nd? And which direction was she
• 22:43
  going? She was going north on 82nd.
• 22:46
  And which direction were you going when you saw her?
• 22:50
  I was going South on 82nd. OK.
• 22:53
  I'm going to assume from what you've told us earlier that you
• 22:57
  were coming from Rogers Lane going in this direction, is that
• 23:00
  correct? If that direction was S, yes.
• 23:05
  You were heading from 82nd and there's a street called NW Welco
• 23:08
  right there. Would that be the street that
• 23:11
  you normally would turn down to go to your house, go down Welco
• 23:15
  to 81st and then down to your? No, You would go up further to
• 23:19
  Terrace? Yes.
• 23:21
  OK. Where were you?
• 23:22
  Had you approached this row of houses at the time that you
• 23:25
  claimed that you flagged her down?
• 23:27
  Had you gotten to those houses yet?
• 23:30
  I don't think so. Had you gotten to Northwest
• 23:32
  Welco yet? I would say that we were just
• 23:36
  about at Welco, Just about at Welco when you flashed your
• 23:40
  lights, waved your arms and jumped out of your car.
• 23:43
  Is that correct? Yes.
• 23:45
  Could you see her when you started down 82nd Street?
• 23:49
  I don't know. I don't.
• 23:51
  I can't even recall that I was interested in getting to a phone
• 23:55
  and communicating with the police, Sir.
• 23:57
  Now, I'm going to just ask you one more time.
• 24:01
  When I ask you a question, will you please respond to it?
• 24:04
  If it calls for a yes or no answer, will you say that you
• 24:08
  don't frustrate me? But I'm getting ready to ask the
• 24:11
  court to hold you in contempt if you do not respond to these
• 24:14
  questions. Can you do that?
• 24:16
  I can do that. Thank you, Sir.
• 24:18
  Now, at any time, let me see. Now, you turned off Rogers Lane
• 24:22
  and you're going down 82nd Street, right?
• 24:24
  Right. And you're up there almost even
• 24:28
  with Welco, which you can turn down, you could turn down if you
• 24:31
  wanted to and go to your house, right, Right.
• 24:34
  Could have. Well, yeah, I you want to pick
• 24:39
  up there. Sure.
• 24:42
  You're even with Welco when you stopped, right?
• 24:45
  I didn't say that. Tell the court.
• 24:47
  Now let's move this a little bit so it'll be it's here.
• 24:50
  Sorry. No, you're good.
• 24:51
  No Cherokee girl, no one has been convicted of this.
• 24:55
  Harvey Templeton went to court but he was acquitted.
• 25:00
  I'll just start from the beginning.
• 25:01
  You were even with welcome or even with welcome when you
• 25:04
  stopped, right? I didn't say that till the
• 25:06
  court. I said.
• 25:09
  I said just about at Welco, not very far from it.
• 25:11
  OK. But the answer to your question
• 25:14
  is yes, I could have. Did you ever get out of your car
• 25:17
  prior to the time of stopping her when you were close to Welco
• 25:19
  St. No.
• 25:20
  What kind of car was she driving?
• 25:22
  I have no idea. What was the first thing that
• 25:25
  you asked her? First thing?
• 25:26
  I don't know. Did you ask her the first thing?
• 25:28
  Your. Is your husband there?
• 25:30
  No. What was the second thing that
• 25:32
  you asked her? I don't know.
• 25:34
  Would your answer again? Would you be my witness?
• 25:37
  No. Did you ask her if she would go
• 25:39
  down there and look? Did you ask her that Eventually?
• 25:42
  Yes. Did you ask her to go to your
• 25:44
  house? I asked her to follow me to my
• 25:45
  house, yes. What time was it when you saw
• 25:48
  Pam Condit? I would say around between 9:55
• 25:53
  and 9:00. O'clock 9:55 and 9:00.
• 25:57
  It wouldn't be 9:00 and 9:55. I think or 855.
• 26:03
  Or 8:55 and 9:00 I estimate to see in the body at 955-8855.
• 26:10
  Did you ever say to Pam Condit that it was a girl or a dog?
• 26:13
  Yes or no? No.
• 26:15
  Pardon me. No.
• 26:17
  What I said was a doll. I'm not asking what you said,
• 26:20
  Sir. What did you say, doll?
• 26:23
  You just responded when I didn't ask a question, did you?
• 26:25
  Not, Sir. Yes, Mr. Zelps.
• 26:28
  Judge, I'd request that you cite this witness for contempt for
• 26:31
  failure to comply with the court's orders of responding to
• 26:34
  questions. The court, let me ask the jury
• 26:36
  to go to the jury room, please. The jury departed the courtroom.
• 26:39
  The court. Mr. Zelps, this is the first
• 26:41
  degree murder case in which the State of Oklahoma is seeking the
• 26:44
  death penalty against the defendant.
• 26:46
  One of the worst things in the world that I can think of is a
• 26:49
  judge citing a witness who was at one time charged with this
• 26:51
  offense for contempt in front of the jury panel.
• 26:54
  On the other hand, and we have advised Mr. Calvert of this in
• 26:58
  our last discussion at the bench, the court has twice
• 27:00
  admonished the witness not to respond other than to answer the
• 27:03
  questions that Council has asked.
• 27:05
  And he continually not only refuses to obey Council's
• 27:08
  admonishment in that, but refuses to obey the court's
• 27:12
  admonishment. Mr. Taylor.
• 27:14
  Mr. Taylor. We get to the point where if the
• 27:17
  only thing left to do is get you to obey the court's admonishment
• 27:20
  is to cite you for contempt and punish, you will do that.
• 27:24
  But I don't want to do that. Do you think that you can in the
• 27:27
  rest of the time that you are on the witness stand, that you will
• 27:29
  listen to the council's question, that you will answer
• 27:32
  that and they will not volunteer a lot of information that you're
• 27:35
  not asked to give? Mr. Taylor Yes, The Court.
• 27:39
  All right. Will that be sufficient?
• 27:41
  Mr. Zelps? Mr. Zelps.
• 27:42
  Yes, Sir. I counsel for the state.
• 27:45
  Mr. Calvert. Your Honor, I'd like to say
• 27:47
  something to Mr. Taylor. The court.
• 27:49
  All right, Mr. Calvert Mr. Taylor, you've got to be careful
• 27:53
  and listen to what Mr. Zelp says and try to answer only that,
• 27:56
  only that question. Good to see you, red Feather.
• 27:59
  Hello, Mr. Calvert. Sir, that isn't for council to
• 28:04
  handle. If you'll just listen to the
• 28:06
  question and ask it. You've got to do that, Sir.
• 28:09
  You have no other choice at this point.
• 28:11
  Mr. Taylor. I understand.
• 28:13
  Mr. Calvert, will you do that? Yes, I will.
• 28:16
  Thank you. Mr. Taylor, I'm warning you,
• 28:19
  you'd better do that. I'll do it.
• 28:21
  Thank you, Your Honor. All right.
• 28:23
  Bring the jury back. Jury reentered the jury box.
• 28:26
  Mr. Zelps, may I inquire, Your Honor, the court for the cross
• 28:30
  examination by Mr. Zelps? Mr. Taylor, I want to ask you
• 28:34
  now again, what did you ever say to.
• 28:37
  I'm sorry. I want to ask you now again.
• 28:39
  Did you ever say to Pam Gondit that it was a girl or a dog?
• 28:43
  No, I didn't. Did you ever say to her?
• 28:46
  Did you ever say to her I need a witness?
• 28:47
  You're my witness. No.
• 28:50
  Earlier on a direct examination, I recall you telling Mr. Calvert
• 28:53
  something about later on. It something about later on it
• 28:58
  came up that you would need to, that you need a witness.
• 29:01
  Are you now denying that you made the statement to Mr.
• 29:03
  Calvert on a direct examination? No.
• 29:06
  OK. You made that statement, did you
• 29:08
  not? No.
• 29:10
  What statement did you make to Mr. Calvert?
• 29:12
  What I told him was something to the effect of I didn't know what
• 29:15
  to tell her. I told her that I might need a
• 29:17
  witness. So you did say I need a witness.
• 29:20
  Is that correct? No.
• 29:22
  Well, I just asked you a minute ago, did you ever see I need a
• 29:24
  witness? You're my witness.
• 29:25
  You said no. And then you just told us that
• 29:27
  you told Mr. Calvert that you said you might need a witness.
• 29:29
  So which way is it? That's what I said.
• 29:35
  That's a little sauce. OK, Let me ask you this.
• 29:38
  You said tell us again what you told Mr. Calvert this time
• 29:41
  today. You said that you might not need
• 29:42
  a witness. Yes.
• 29:45
  Or you might need a witness. Yes.
• 29:47
  Can you tell these ladies and gentlemen of the jury why you
• 29:49
  need a witness if you didn't do anything?
• 29:51
  I've seen on TV where people find bodies and they end up
• 29:55
  getting questioned about it. It's just a matter of routine.
• 29:57
  It's good to verify someone who was there, someone who you came
• 30:00
  in contact recently, right after you found the body, that type of
• 30:04
  thing. You hadn't done anything, right?
• 30:06
  That's correct. You were close to Welco Dr.
• 30:10
  where you could have turned in and went directly to your
• 30:12
  mother's house. Is that correct?
• 30:14
  That's correct. You had somebody down here at
• 30:17
  52nd that you just bought gas from, you could have told him to
• 30:20
  go down there and talk to them and verify it, couldn't you?
• 30:23
  That's correct. Nobody has ever been talked to
• 30:27
  for anyone from 52nd St. have they?
• 30:30
  I don't know. There's been no witness endorsed
• 30:32
  that sold gas out there, has there?
• 30:35
  Not that I'm aware of. Could have went right to your
• 30:37
  mother's house, called the police and said I'm driving down
• 30:39
  the road and there's something out there that I don't know what
• 30:42
  it is. I'm John Zelps or Robert Taylor,
• 30:45
  and here's where I live, Right? Right.
• 30:48
  We've got a bigger, more fanciful imagination than most
• 30:50
  people, don't you? No.
• 30:53
  Well, you're watching television and you see on television
• 30:56
  something that makes you say I've got to stop a car while
• 30:58
  they're driving down the road, jump in front of them and flash
• 31:01
  my lights and say I need a witness.
• 31:03
  Right. Could you repeat the question,
• 31:04
  please? Yeah.
• 31:06
  I've got a fanciful imagination where somebody's driving a car
• 31:09
  down the road and you've got to stop yours, flash your lights,
• 31:12
  jump out in front of them and say I need a witness.
• 31:15
  No. I'm going to be honest, I'd
• 31:17
  probably do the same thing. I'd be like, hey, I need
• 31:20
  somebody here to. Yeah, probably saying.
• 31:23
  Stay here with the body or go call the cops or something.
• 31:27
  No, I I don't disagree with you. I'd probably feel something
• 31:31
  similar. I always feel like, I don't
• 31:33
  know, I go hiking a lot or I used to go hiking a lot.
• 31:35
  I've been kind of lazy this year.
• 31:38
  Yes, he is insufferable. Yeah, I I would agree.
• 31:41
  Did you, do you recall being around him specifically?
• 31:45
  Like, was he? Did he kind of give off like
• 31:48
  lack of better words? Like douchebag vibes?
• 31:50
  No, I just remember him being nice.
• 31:53
  I can imagine this would probably bring out the worst in
• 31:55
  some people, but I don't know, man.
• 31:57
  Like I've never gone. I've gone to court for only like
• 31:59
  traffic violations or like speeding tickets, not like
• 32:02
  anything crazy or anything. And I've had to interact with,
• 32:05
  you know, different police that protest and different things.
• 32:08
  And despite how I'm feeling about the particular situation,
• 32:11
  I owe or even, you know, the enforcement in general, I'm
• 32:14
  always like overly nice, overly understanding.
• 32:17
  I try to make sure that I'm not coming across as combative or
• 32:22
  anything like that because I'm nervous, I mean, or not nervous
• 32:26
  because I did anything wrong, but you know what I mean?
• 32:27
  Like that makes it sound like. It's the authorities, yeah.
• 32:31
  Well, you hear stories about people abusing power and doing
• 32:34
  certain things and you know, I just, I just don't want to risk
• 32:37
  anything and I just want to, I have no issues.
• 32:40
  I would like to never go to jail.
• 32:42
  Go to jail. Although I feel like a mug shot
• 32:45
  would be kind of iconic, but no I don't.
• 32:47
  No, I'm. Just playing, I'm playing.
• 32:48
  I don't know. I I would never want to, No, I'd
• 32:51
  be crying in a mug shot hypothetically, but no.
• 32:55
  All the suspicious things that I just set aside I can imagine
• 33:01
  sometimes. Don't always ask, act yourself.
• 33:07
  Sorry guys. We have to mute both mics
• 33:09
  whenever one of us cough. But yeah, no, I don't know.
• 33:13
  I can imagine your might not be your normal self.
• 33:15
  I don't know. Yeah, I just remember Robert
• 33:17
  being and I do remember calling him Bobby.
• 33:20
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 33:21
  So. Makes sense?
• 33:23
  I just remember him being nice and, you know, like a regular
• 33:28
  Big Brother, you know? Fair enough.
• 33:33
  Yeah, OK. Just to pick SO.
• 33:36
  No, I don't use generative AI. I don't use generative AI.
• 33:40
  But you know, it's all good. I used to have a mug shot of
• 33:44
  someone's in here, but I don't anymore.
• 33:46
  OK, anyway, could you repeat the question, please?
• 33:52
  Yeah. You've got a fanciful
• 33:53
  imagination where somebody's driving the car down the road
• 33:56
  and you've got to stop yours, flash your lights, jump out in
• 33:58
  front of them and say I need a witness.
• 34:00
  No, Well, that's what you did or something similar.
• 34:03
  Similar to it, did you not? That's what I did.
• 34:09
  Interesting. I mean, maybe he's just saying
• 34:11
  it's not a fanciful imagination because I agree.
• 34:13
  It's not really like a fanciful. It's like not a crazy concept
• 34:16
  that hey, I'm a dude out here. There's not as good like
• 34:22
  evidence or ways to not as good. Like I'm sure like the DNA stuff
• 34:29
  wasn't as good back then. I'm sure that there existed at
• 34:33
  all. There was no cameras or anything
• 34:35
  like that all along the sides of the road.
• 34:37
  So I can imagine a man being like, hey, like, you know, but
• 34:40
  not that that makes you seem any less suspicious.
• 34:43
  I don't know. I guess it's just a case by case
• 34:44
  basis. And we also can't see his
• 34:47
  demeanor or like, listen to the way he's saying any of these
• 34:50
  things, so. I mean, depending on what he, I
• 34:52
  mean he kind of referenced TV, you know, depending on what he
• 34:56
  was watching. No, I watch a lot of, you know,
• 34:59
  crime related shows. I remember the other day I was
• 35:02
  at a wedding, and I didn't message my friend back.
• 35:04
  And you all need to know, like, I'm bad at messaging people
• 35:06
  back, just period. And she knows that, too.
• 35:10
  And she's like, oh, Laura, you haven't texted me back.
• 35:12
  You know, whatever. I just want to make sure you're
• 35:14
  not dead in a ditch somewhere. I was like, whoa, whoa.
• 35:16
  She's like, sorry, I was watching a crime show.
• 35:18
  I was like, like, yeah. I mean, I'm pretty consistently
• 35:21
  bad at responding, so nothing personal ever.
• 35:25
  Sometimes I just think about something.
• 35:27
  I'm like, oh, it's just so much effort.
• 35:29
  Anyway, that's what I did. You're already on the way home,
• 35:34
  right? Right.
• 35:35
  Isn't it true that you didn't know what she had seen out
• 35:38
  there? What I had seen?
• 35:40
  No. What Pam Conda had seen?
• 35:42
  Oh, sure. There's no way I could know.
• 35:44
  And isn't it true, Sir, that you were closer to the corner of
• 35:47
  Rogers Lane than you've indicated to us?
• 35:49
  No. And isn't it true, Sir, that you
• 35:53
  were not in your car? No, that's absolutely not true.
• 35:56
  Isn't it true also, Sir, that your lights were out on your
• 35:59
  car? No, that's not true.
• 36:01
  We'll see when Pam Conda testifies.
• 36:04
  Did you have any problems telling the police the location
• 36:08
  of where you saw this item? You say?
• 36:10
  Did you tell them? Did you have problems telling
• 36:12
  them where it was located? Yes.
• 36:14
  And you knew that area, did you not?
• 36:17
  Yes. And you knew that Rogers Lane
• 36:19
  ran W when you passed 82nd St. did you not?
• 36:22
  Yes. And you told us earlier that you
• 36:24
  had been down Rogers Lane night and day before, isn't that
• 36:27
  correct? Yes.
• 36:29
  So you knew the direction, did you not?
• 36:31
  No, you didn't. Why didn't you know the
• 36:35
  direction? I was confused.
• 36:37
  I was excited. I had just seen excited.
• 36:42
  It's a weird way to put it. Yeah.
• 36:44
  I mean, I could see myself getting maybe worked up in the,
• 36:48
  you know, adrenaline. Adrenaline might be the right
• 36:50
  word, but that can also be misconstrued.
• 36:55
  I was confused. I was excited.
• 36:56
  I had just seen what I thought to be a dead body or a doll or a
• 36:59
  mannequin. And, you know, these people were
• 37:01
  asking me in a very calm voice, where is it?
• 37:04
  And I'm saying, well, it's, you know, it's either I had to
• 37:07
  figure north, north and from north, you know, where it was,
• 37:12
  it's east or West. How to read that?
• 37:16
  Was it West of Rogers Lane or West of, you know, just the
• 37:19
  whole deal? That's I was stumbling through
• 37:22
  that in the direction approximately.
• 37:25
  Well, we know you had drank a couple beers, right?
• 37:28
  That's incorrect, all right. You would drink one beer and
• 37:31
  part of another one. Is that correct?
• 37:33
  Yes, that's correct. Out drinking and driving.
• 37:36
  You were out there with marijuana seeds being the
• 37:39
  botanist or psychologist or data processor, right?
• 37:42
  I hate to laugh. It's just funny the way they're
• 37:44
  saying this. Yeah, I know.
• 37:46
  I don't know. I don't drink beer.
• 37:50
  Is 2 beers really even enough to really do anything?
• 37:52
  I mean, it's still wrong to drink and drive, especially if
• 37:54
  you're physically drinking while you're physically driving.
• 37:57
  Beers will get me more buzzed than a drink.
• 38:01
  Like an alcoholic drink, I mean. That is alcohol.
• 38:04
  But I think I mean like a. Like a beatbox or something.
• 38:07
  Or or like a mixed drink. A mixed drink.
• 38:09
  Gotcha. OK.
• 38:10
  So like 2 beers? I would feel more buzzed off of
• 38:15
  2 beers than a mixed drink. OK, I guess everyone's different
• 38:20
  in the ways that the alcohol processes, but I'm assuming if
• 38:22
  he's out drinking and driving, he probably is a regular user of
• 38:25
  beer and I'm not. Again, I'm not I'm not like
• 38:27
  defending his drinking and driving.
• 38:29
  I'm just trying to gauge how it. Would affect world.
• 38:34
  World back then, yeah. I'm sure.
• 38:37
  And again, I'm, I'm, again, I'm really not excusing what he's
• 38:40
  doing. I'm just trying to gauge how
• 38:42
  much it really would affect him as somebody who would feel
• 38:45
  comfortable enough to do that. He probably wasn't that
• 38:49
  flustered by the beer, probably just by the situation.
• 38:51
  OK. Hey Cherokee girl, I am old
• 38:54
  enough to remember encyclopedias and I use them.
• 38:57
  I've used encyclopedias too, and I'm only 202626.
• 39:01
  I think I've had a birthday since I was last on here.
• 39:03
  Yeah. You did.
• 39:05
  OK, that's incorrect. OK, you've got your marijuana
• 39:10
  seeds out there anyhow. Now, what did you do with that
• 39:12
  second beer? I pitched it out.
• 39:14
  And where did you throw it out, Sir?
• 39:16
  While I was in reverse heading back towards 82nd?
• 39:19
  Is it close to the body, Sir? I wouldn't suspect that it was.
• 39:23
  You don't know if it is or not. No, But you know, there's a beer
• 39:26
  can or there was out there that has your fingerprints all over
• 39:29
  it, and that's in close proximity of that body, is it
• 39:32
  not? Is it then 100 yards?
• 39:34
  Yes, then 100 yards. Well, is on Rogers Lane or is it
• 39:38
  on 82nd St. It's on Rogers Lane.
• 39:41
  Well, how far did you tell Mister Calvert earlier that the
• 39:44
  body was located from the corner of 82nd St. in Rogers Lane?
• 39:48
  30 or 40 yards. How could it be?
• 39:51
  Where did you go? Did you go somewhere else other
• 39:54
  than what you told us? No.
• 39:57
  How could it be within 100 yards of that?
• 39:59
  When I say 100 yards, I mean that it was on the road, and I
• 40:02
  certainly can't be mistaken when I said that it was within 100
• 40:05
  yards. Did you throw it out in the
• 40:07
  grass close to the body? No, I heard it hit the concrete
• 40:11
  or the anyway the pack down dirt.
• 40:14
  Why did you throw it out? Because I was panicked because I
• 40:17
  was about to go communicate with police and I had an almost full
• 40:20
  beer in my lap and I thought it was not a good idea.
• 40:24
  Fair enough. Yeah, well, you weren't going to
• 40:28
  talk to him in person, were you? No.
• 40:30
  Now let's see, you went home, as I understand it, and talked on
• 40:33
  the telephone and had this gal come up here and wait.
• 40:35
  Did you go back down the go back down there?
• 40:39
  Yes. So you returned to the scene of
• 40:41
  the crime, is that correct? I don't know that that was the
• 40:44
  scene of the crime. You returned back down to that
• 40:48
  body you found, right? Yes.
• 40:51
  Couldn't stay away. Curiosity got the cat.
• 40:53
  Is that correct? No.
• 40:55
  Did you take your car? The one that had the sleeping
• 40:57
  bag and the pillow and the raincoat and the blackjack and
• 41:00
  the tapes and the ties and the electrical cord?
• 41:02
  Did you take that car back down there?
• 41:04
  No. They're making him sound like a
• 41:06
  Ted Bundy for sure. I mean, he's not doing himself a
• 41:10
  lot of favors. I'm not accusing him of
• 41:11
  anything, you know, if he's still alive.
• 41:14
  I don't know. I have been told that he's
• 41:17
  probably not alive. I got a message when I first put
• 41:22
  this case on Reddit from somebody that said that they
• 41:27
  were Robert Taylor's relative is all I'm going to say.
• 41:34
  And before I could open it, they deleted it.
• 41:39
  But what I did see was that he wasn't a good guy.
• 41:43
  So I don't know do. You think he may have some kind
• 41:46
  of involvement potentially or do you think that they thought
• 41:49
  potentially? But I mean I.
• 41:50
  Think they thought I think that they might have had some
• 41:54
  questions if they came to me on Reddit and sent me that message
• 41:59
  and then deleted it before I could read it.
• 42:02
  So you know how you get the alert and I pulled it down and I
• 42:06
  could see part of the message, but then when I got to Reddit it
• 42:10
  was deleted already. So.
• 42:12
  OK, that makes sense. But I mean just by listening to
• 42:15
  his again, you can't see it and hear the way that he's saying
• 42:18
  it. But just by reading the
• 42:19
  transcripts, it doesn't sound like he's the most stand up guy
• 42:22
  by the way he's interacting. I mean, I know we all act
• 42:24
  different when. He's definitely shady.
• 42:28
  He's a drinker and driver. Yeah, drunk driver.
• 42:31
  Or maybe not a drunk driver, but you know.
• 42:33
  Yeah, and everybody's talking about the news and newspapers
• 42:38
  back in the day. You could believe them.
• 42:39
  I honestly don't even think you could believe them back in the
• 42:42
  day because I'm going back and finding out all kinds of
• 42:46
  information that I learned as a kid that was not true.
• 42:50
  And it's like, OK, well, where did that come from?
• 42:54
  It came from school, books, newspapers, news, things like
• 42:58
  that. So.
• 42:59
  Yeah, OK. You're in your mother.
• 43:03
  You went in your mother's car, didn't you?
• 43:05
  Yes, she was going. What was the first thing you
• 43:08
  asked the police when you went down there?
• 43:10
  Was it a body? You didn't walk up to them and
• 43:13
  say I'm Robert Taylor and I called in, did you?
• 43:16
  I might have. Yeah.
• 43:17
  Well, you might have. I asked you just a minute ago,
• 43:20
  Sir. What was the first thing that
• 43:22
  you asked the police when you went down there?
• 43:24
  First thing I asked them. Asked them as in question form.
• 43:27
  Was it a body? Did you say that before you told
• 43:29
  them who you were? I'm not sure.
• 43:31
  You talked to a red headed police officer, didn't you?
• 43:34
  Yes. That was Officer Robert, Brad or
• 43:37
  Braley, is that correct? That's correct.
• 43:40
  You seen him out in the hallway here today, this morning or this
• 43:42
  afternoon, have you not? Yes, I have.
• 43:45
  Didn't the police request that you wait there?
• 43:47
  Yes. And where do they want you to
• 43:49
  wait? In his cruiser?
• 43:51
  And. And approximately how long did
• 43:53
  you wait? Oh, I'd say anywhere from 45
• 43:55
  minutes to an hour. All right, who questioned you
• 43:58
  first, Sir? Jacobsma.
• 44:00
  Jacobsma. Jacobsma, Jacobsma, that's what
• 44:04
  I've been saying. And what did you believe?
• 44:07
  What did you and Jacobsma talk about?
• 44:09
  I wanted to go to a phone and I wanted to go lock up my car.
• 44:12
  That's what you talked about, Yeah.
• 44:16
  Oh, I was thinking he said my phone.
• 44:18
  OK, just a phone. OK.
• 44:20
  I was thinking there weren't really cell phones back then or
• 44:23
  very, very early stages. Not the average Joe, haven't.
• 44:28
  Although I heard car phones were a thing.
• 44:30
  Kind of. Not that That's what's going on
• 44:32
  here. I remember car phones being
• 44:35
  around when I was in the 4th grade so.
• 44:38
  I think I've heard stories about not on Papa having car phones.
• 44:41
  Like. Yeah.
• 44:43
  OK. And that's what you talked
• 44:45
  about? Yeah.
• 44:45
  I went up to him. You went.
• 44:47
  You want to hear it? Yes, Sir.
• 44:49
  I want to hear exactly what you all talked about.
• 44:51
  OK. There's a lead into it.
• 44:54
  There's a reason for it. Can I tell you that?
• 44:56
  Yeah, Sir, you can tell me. Go ahead.
• 44:58
  OK. I was sitting there and I saw
• 45:00
  that everybody had someone to talk to about the great big
• 45:03
  murder mystery. Even the photographers had
• 45:05
  someone to. The detectives had to the
• 45:08
  detectives had someone to talk to.
• 45:10
  I was sitting over there in a car by myself, swimming in my
• 45:13
  thoughts, and I had just seen a dead body and I didn't have
• 45:15
  anybody to talk to and nobody was going to talk to me.
• 45:18
  And that's the type of thing that's good to talk about.
• 45:21
  So I wanted to talk to somebody. I wanted to.
• 45:23
  Felt bad that you had no one to talk to.
• 45:26
  All the other kids had somebody to play with.
• 45:27
  Huh. Oh.
• 45:29
  Boy. Just to play devil's advocate, I
• 45:34
  feel like if you would have just seen a dead body, you'd probably
• 45:36
  want someone to. Yeah, you want to offload.
• 45:39
  Yeah, I mean, when he said excited, I I interpreted that
• 45:44
  most likely just meant adrenaline.
• 45:46
  And if your adrenaline's rushing and if you think you might be a
• 45:48
  suspect and you know you're not, I mean.
• 45:51
  You just want to spill your guts.
• 45:53
  I get it. I do a lot of yapping for a lot
• 45:55
  less so. Right.
• 45:59
  Especially being a child. I don't even know if you knew
• 46:01
  that at that point, but God, I would need.
• 46:04
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:05
  Oh, you OK? Oh, poor baby keeps almost
• 46:08
  falling down. Yeah.
• 46:09
  You're OK, sweetheart. Sorry.
• 46:11
  I'll wrap you up in my hand on Montana blanket.
• 46:15
  Yeah. I love you too.
• 46:16
  OK, Let's see. Is this funny, Mr. Zelps?
• 46:23
  Sir? That is, Sir.
• 46:26
  That that that you said. That.
• 46:30
  That you said was is what you're telling us.
• 46:32
  That's not what I'm telling you. I'm trying to tell you why I
• 46:35
  was. Everybody else had somebody to
• 46:37
  talk to except for you. Go ahead and tell us the rest of
• 46:39
  it. I had a inaudible experience and
• 46:43
  I intended to talk. And so the detectives weren't
• 46:46
  really interested in talking to me.
• 46:49
  I talked to a cameraman for a little while.
• 46:51
  Oh, you got out of the car? No.
• 46:53
  While I was waiting for, what's his name?
• 46:55
  Jacob Smith. You're still sitting in the car.
• 46:58
  No, no, no. I'm not in the car.
• 46:59
  Now you're not in the car. No.
• 47:02
  Had you been in the car? So we didn't get out of the car,
• 47:08
  but he's not in the car because he was just saying.
• 47:12
  He was before he talked to Jacob's MA.
• 47:15
  Jacob Smith is the one that put him in the car.
• 47:17
  And oh, in the cop car. Yeah, OK, get oats booties for
• 47:22
  Christmas. He won't wear those things.
• 47:24
  I I have some, or I think I gave them away, but I have some extra
• 47:28
  ones that I got for my grandma. And yeah, he I doubt it.
• 47:32
  Anyway, I'd be in the car for quite a while.
• 47:36
  OK, So you get out, right? Right.
• 47:38
  Stretching your legs, wanting to talk to somebody, Right.
• 47:41
  OK. So you talked to the cameraman.
• 47:43
  Now I'm asking you, Sir, what did you and the police talk
• 47:45
  about? I'm not asking you what you talk
• 47:47
  about with the cameraman. Did you?
• 47:50
  What did you and the police talk about?
• 47:53
  OK, I went up with those thoughts in mind to Jacobs Ma.
• 47:56
  And I said that I want to go home and call a friend and I
• 47:59
  want to lock up my car because it's on the street.
• 48:02
  OK, What else did you all talk about?
• 48:04
  He said, well, he and some detectives huddled for, I don't
• 48:07
  know, a while, and they came back to me and kind of
• 48:09
  surrounded me. And Jacobs Ma said, can we
• 48:12
  search your car? And I said, sure, as long as
• 48:15
  you, you know, look for something that would relate to
• 48:17
  the case because it was an understandable request and I had
• 48:21
  nothing to hide. All right.
• 48:23
  And he said, what else did you all talk about?
• 48:27
  I don't understand. And I said, yes, you can search
• 48:29
  my car as long as you're only looking for something that
• 48:31
  relates to this case. He said that we don't
• 48:34
  understand. I said, search my car.
• 48:37
  Fine. It will be fine.
• 48:38
  Just search my car. Now, here's the thing again,
• 48:41
  I've watched a lot, a lot of crime shows and stuff.
• 48:44
  If I ever found myself in a position where the police asked
• 48:47
  to search my car for any reason, I would say no, that I would
• 48:51
  like to speak with a lawyer. Not because anything suspicious,
• 48:54
  but also anytime that I see that in a crime show or if I see
• 48:59
  that, you know, just talked about in transcripts like this,
• 49:02
  not that that's what he's doing, I always get really suspicious
• 49:04
  of them. So it's kind of like a Catch 22.
• 49:07
  Yeah, I mean, and your dad will say if a cop ever comes and
• 49:14
  pulls you over or whatever, just say I don't consent for you to
• 49:18
  search my car. That's what he always says, you
• 49:21
  know, even though we're not hiding anything or doing
• 49:23
  anything. He's just like, that's what
• 49:26
  you're supposed to say. And I'm like that.
• 49:28
  Seemed suspicious, yeah. I don't know.
• 49:31
  I've never been in a position where the police have ever
• 49:33
  wanted to search my car. Exactly.
• 49:35
  I haven't either, so I don't know.
• 49:37
  Should happen sometimes, you know, but again, there's nothing
• 49:39
  I. Could just imagine me being like
• 49:41
  my husband said, I'm not supposed to let you search my
• 49:44
  car. One time I needed to provide an
• 49:47
  ID for somebody and I didn't have my ID on me.
• 49:50
  And then they asked for my Social Security number and I was
• 49:52
  like my dad said, I was supposed to give my Social Security
• 49:55
  number out. So what do you need it for?
• 49:59
  And they're like, I think they wanted to make sure I wasn't
• 50:02
  like a trafficking victim or something.
• 50:05
  I'll tell you about it another time.
• 50:07
  Everything is fine. Nothing suspicious happened.
• 50:09
  I didn't get any trouble, but it was just like I was in the
• 50:11
  middle of nowhere anyway. Doesn't matter, OK.
• 50:13
  Yes, every option seems shady. It does.
• 50:19
  It does Like everything. It's like what?
• 50:21
  What do you do? It's like you're kind of
• 50:23
  screwed. Oh, sorry.
• 50:24
  I didn't mean to move you. You're kind of screwed no matter
• 50:26
  what. So I know I'm not making myself
• 50:29
  sound like any better right here.
• 50:31
  I'm just saying. OK, fine.
• 50:36
  It will be fine to search my car.
• 50:38
  What else did you all talk about?
• 50:39
  That's about it. Are you sure there's nothing
• 50:41
  else? No, I'm not sure.
• 50:43
  Well, anything that you would you can think about.
• 50:46
  I told him I wanted to call somebody to talk about it.
• 50:48
  All right. You recall the preliminary
• 50:50
  hearing, do you not, Sir? Yes, I do.
• 50:52
  Page 186. You remember this question?
• 50:55
  Question. OK.
• 50:56
  What Cherokee girl said a cop tried to arrest her for murder?
• 51:01
  It's always you, no? Wonder why don't I or why don't
• 51:06
  I find that? Surprising or surprising?
• 51:09
  Well, you know, Cherokee girl, if I'm ever in a pinch, that's
• 51:13
  why you're always trying to offer off bail.
• 51:16
  Money. What have I ever done to make
• 51:18
  you think that I need bail money?
• 51:20
  Come on. Right.
• 51:21
  She's on Cherokee I. Shake like a leaf when I get
• 51:24
  pulled over. Me too, joy.
• 51:26
  I I've kind of gotten pulled over in several years, but
• 51:28
  anytime that I have gotten pulled over except for twice, I
• 51:31
  was incredibly lucky. You read or heard my numbers
• 51:36
  wrong and slapped the cuffs on. It was my first day.
• 51:39
  I'm a new job, of course. Girl, you've done some crazy
• 51:43
  stuff, or you've had some crazy stuff happen to you.
• 51:47
  Thankfully, I've never been. Well, never mind, since I've
• 51:52
  never been in handcuffs. I've never been handcuffed by a
• 51:54
  police officer. OK.
• 51:56
  Yes, I do. Page 186.
• 51:59
  Do you remember this question? Question.
• 52:00
  OK, what? This is line 21.
• 52:03
  OK, what, if anything, did you tell the officer?
• 52:06
  Excuse me? Wrong one.
• 52:07
  It's page 187, line 22. Can you hear him snoring?
• 52:11
  Yes, I can. Sorry y'all question.
• 52:15
  Who is the first one answer? I believe the first one I talked
• 52:19
  to might have been Jacob Smith. Question.
• 52:21
  OK, what did Mr. Jacobs MA? Excuse me.
• 52:24
  What did Mr. Jacobs MA what did he ask you answer?
• 52:28
  Not anything that I consider relevant.
• 52:29
  He asked me if I was going to school and what I'm majoring in.
• 52:33
  You never told us about that today, did you?
• 52:36
  That was later. Oh, that was later.
• 52:38
  Well, I've got a problem then. If it was later.
• 52:41
  I asked you what he asked you about and you didn't tell us any
• 52:44
  of that stuff. You are now just related now?
• 52:47
  Just related to the jury. Did you, had I been allowed to
• 52:51
  continue to elaborate on the conversation, I would have
• 52:54
  gotten to that, Sir. OK.
• 52:56
  Did he ever ask you about the body that was out there?
• 52:59
  He really didn't ask me much about that.
• 53:01
  Uh huh. Or he did he ask you yes or no?
• 53:05
  No, he didn't. Didn't ask you about that body.
• 53:08
  Did you find that surprising? I really hadn't thought about
• 53:11
  it. Then he never said a word to you
• 53:13
  about the body. I don't know.
• 53:15
  Do you recall this question asked to you at the preliminary
• 53:18
  hearing at page 188? Question.
• 53:21
  He never said a word to you about the body Answer.
• 53:23
  Oh, I'm sure he did. Now, did he or didn't he talk to
• 53:28
  you about the body? I don't know.
• 53:31
  Who are the next detectives that you talk to, Ruth or Ralph?
• 53:35
  I'm not sure how you pronounce his name.
• 53:37
  All right. What did Daryl, Ralph asked you,
• 53:40
  Sir? Or ask you Sir?
• 53:43
  They were asking me mainly about my background, what I was taking
• 53:46
  in school. Oh, Ralph asked you that?
• 53:49
  Well, they, Ralph and Jacob Smoke, were in the same vehicle.
• 53:53
  It transported me down to the police station.
• 53:55
  You tell us if your memory has improved since that day or has
• 53:57
  it gotten worse? I don't know.
• 54:00
  You recall this question? What did Darryl Ralph ask you,
• 54:03
  Sir, Answer. I don't recall.
• 54:06
  I was just wondering if your memory has gotten better.
• 54:08
  You're telling us some answers that you couldn't recall when it
• 54:11
  was closer to the incident that occurred.
• 54:13
  Is that a question? Yes, Sir.
• 54:15
  Is your memory better today or then?
• 54:18
  My memory is the same. Same.
• 54:20
  What time did the detectives get through questioning you at the
• 54:22
  police station when they took you down there?
• 54:25
  I left there at 2:30. Boy I'd have a hard time pinning
• 54:29
  down times and stuff like. That me too.
• 54:35
  I'm I'm not totally time blind, but I don't know what I'm doing
• 54:40
  half the time. Sir, I didn't ask you that.
• 54:44
  What time did the police officers get through questioning
• 54:47
  you at the police station? I would estimate around 1:30 or
• 54:50
  1:45. OK.
• 54:52
  And what time did you leave, 230?
• 54:54
  All right, What did you do for that next hour after the
• 54:56
  questioning was over, while you waited to leave?
• 54:59
  I sat in the detective secretary's room.
• 55:01
  Tell us how your Volkswagen got down to the police station.
• 55:04
  It took it down there without my knowledge.
• 55:06
  OK. And so you didn't give them
• 55:08
  permission, right? Not to tow it.
• 55:11
  And your mother didn't give them permission, right?
• 55:13
  That's correct. Next thing you know, they've
• 55:15
  hooked, they've hooked onto it and have towed it down there,
• 55:18
  right? Right.
• 55:20
  Must have thought something was in there, I guess.
• 55:22
  Huh. Maybe.
• 55:24
  Found some things in there, didn't they?
• 55:26
  Well, my car was full of things, yes.
• 55:29
  OK. You had some duct tape in there,
• 55:30
  right? That's correct.
• 55:32
  You had a rolled up electrical cord, is that correct?
• 55:35
  That's correct. You had a pair of rubber gloves
• 55:37
  in there, is that correct? I think I had several pairs,
• 55:39
  yes. You had a pair of white cotton
• 55:42
  gloves in there also inside the car, didn't you?
• 55:44
  White cotton gloves. Uh huh.
• 55:46
  That's the evidence envelope. Well, I'm sure they wouldn't.
• 55:49
  Sure. You recall those white gloves?
• 55:52
  No, I don't. You had a police blackjack,
• 55:55
  right? That's correct.
• 55:57
  It's a police blackjack. Is that one of the rods?
• 56:01
  OK. It's not a rod.
• 56:03
  It's like a it was a slapper is what they called it last time.
• 56:09
  It's like, it's like leather and it's got metal on the inside of
• 56:13
  the leather and you just slap somebody with it.
• 56:18
  I'm Googling it y'all. Sorry, I just want to know what
• 56:21
  I'm. Like that, I don't think they
• 56:32
  can see. They won't be able to see it.
• 56:35
  Kinda, I don't know that looks like.
• 56:38
  Yeah, that's a slapper. Something else that's OK.
• 56:40
  That's interesting. I was looking at the one that
• 56:43
  they had on the previous page. Like the the AI thing that
• 56:48
  almost looks like a whip. It does.
• 56:52
  It's a lot harder to see. Well, maybe I can click on the
• 56:54
  picture. Yes, everybody's suspicious.
• 56:56
  That looks a little like, I don't know, I'm not even trying
• 56:58
  to be weird. I'm just saying like, that just
• 57:00
  doesn't look like something a police officer should be
• 57:01
  carrying around. To what?
• 57:03
  To slap people around or. So back in the day they used to
• 57:09
  carry, I don't know if police, police officers actually carried
• 57:13
  them around. They they probably did since
• 57:15
  it's called a police slapper. But I know like for instance,
• 57:20
  Papa Richter had something sort of like it, you know, from back
• 57:24
  in the day, like in the 40s and stuff like that.
• 57:28
  Just something to have on you. That's not a gun, not a knife to
• 57:33
  protect yourself. Interesting.
• 57:35
  OK. Yeah, I'm not.
• 57:37
  OK, interesting. That's correct.
• 57:41
  Now let me see, I wonder where you would have gotten a police
• 57:44
  blackjack, because it's not like they didn't have Amazon back
• 57:46
  then, you know? Oh, you could have gotten it at
• 57:48
  a military supply store. You could have gotten it all
• 57:51
  kinds of places. I went to a military.
• 57:56
  Where did I go? It's like a kind of like a
• 58:00
  thrift shop, but it was a military one.
• 58:02
  But everything was like super over.
• 58:04
  Everything was super overpriced. Yeah, they are.
• 58:06
  And it wasn't like worth it at all.
• 58:08
  It's just like. Yeah, it's like the modern
• 58:09
  equivalent to a Taser or a rolled up wrap of of quarters in
• 58:15
  a sock. I feel like everyone in chat is
• 58:20
  a little bit older than me, but do you remember the Butter sock
• 58:22
  by Carly? Yes.
• 58:24
  Butter. I do remember the butter sock.
• 58:28
  OK. OK.
• 58:31
  Sorry about that. I'm sorry about my detours.
• 58:33
  OK, You got to please blackjack, right?
• 58:36
  That's correct. Now, let me see, What did you
• 58:39
  earlier testify that you had that blackjack in there for?
• 58:42
  Excuse me? What did you have that blackjack
• 58:44
  in your car for? In case I was ever attacked?
• 58:47
  You said you had to deal with some unruly people, right?
• 58:50
  Sometimes people are unruly. You ever need to use it?
• 58:53
  Never. Anybody ever assault you?
• 58:56
  Never just had it in there just in case.
• 58:59
  Maybe that's correct. I mean, I've had pepper spray
• 59:02
  and Tasers and stuff. I've never had to use them.
• 59:04
  Yeah. I've had people asked me to tase
• 59:07
  them a few times actually. I think one time I actually did.
• 59:11
  I could be wrong, it was a long time ago I.
• 59:14
  Feel like some of the kids from the youth group tried to get me
• 59:17
  to tase them and I was like no not happening.
• 59:20
  No, no, no, no, no. Yeah.
• 59:23
  I mean, anyway, you also had some, I guess what we've been
• 59:28
  calling them, I think you called them tie wraps, is that right?
• 59:31
  That's correct. Tie wraps and those electrical
• 59:34
  tie cords that you can put around electrical cables or a
• 59:36
  garbage bag or something like that, isn't that correct?
• 59:39
  Yes. You had a sleeping bag in there
• 59:41
  and a raincoat in there, right? Yes.
• 59:45
  Did you also have a journal in there?
• 59:47
  What would you classify as a journal?
• 59:48
  Well, I don't know, Sir. There was a question asked to
• 59:51
  you and your answer on page two O 5 was that there were some
• 59:54
  personal communication journal entries.
• 59:56
  And I asked you the question. Journal entries?
• 59:58
  You mean like business? Like business that you were
• 1:00:01
  trying to or? Yeah, that you were trying to.
• 1:00:04
  You said no, I have a journal that I keep.
• 1:00:07
  You're playing games with me now, aren't you?
• 1:00:08
  No, I'm I'm right there with you.
• 1:00:10
  I just don't know the answer. Yeah, he's even if he didn't do
• 1:00:18
  it. He's being combative.
• 1:00:20
  I wonder if he just hates police officers or something like, I
• 1:00:23
  mean, well. I mean, he was originally
• 1:00:26
  arrested for this murder. Yeah, but if I was arrested for.
• 1:00:28
  Murder. He sued.
• 1:00:29
  He sued the City of Lawton for $1,000,000.
• 1:00:32
  Did he win? It I don't think so, but there's
• 1:00:35
  no evidence as to what actually happened, so I think he was just
• 1:00:39
  pissed. I mean, I get it, but it's like
• 1:00:42
  if you, I mean, I guess he's not on trial, but there's no reason
• 1:00:47
  why he couldn't eventually be put on.
• 1:00:49
  Well, I don't. Know he's just not doing himself
• 1:00:51
  any favors by being combative and all of that.
• 1:00:54
  It just makes him look Uber SUS. Yeah, even if he didn't do the
• 1:01:00
  crime itself, he just seems like a real piece of work.
• 1:01:04
  OK, I'm right there with you. I just don't know the answer.
• 1:01:08
  Did you have a journal, Sir? I can answer the question, but
• 1:01:11
  not with a yes or no. May I explain?
• 1:01:13
  Yes, Sir. OK.
• 1:01:15
  There's a collection of writings that I make from time to time.
• 1:01:17
  I just make notes and loosely, I call the entire collection of
• 1:01:21
  those writings, and I have boxes of them.
• 1:01:24
  I write them down there or I write them down here, and
• 1:01:27
  eventually I put them in a box. I call that my journal.
• 1:01:30
  Now, if they are individual writings, which were in a Bible
• 1:01:33
  where they took those from, they were journal entries.
• 1:01:37
  They're part of my journal. OK, But I didn't have a per SE a
• 1:01:42
  volume, a journal in my car. What did you put in that
• 1:01:47
  journal? Significant thoughts.
• 1:01:50
  OK. What type of significant
• 1:01:52
  thoughts? Things on everyday philosophy.
• 1:01:54
  Sometimes theology, sometimes humorous things that I would
• 1:01:57
  notice. Psychology.
• 1:01:59
  Sure. Philosophy.
• 1:02:00
  Psychology and theology. Is that correct?
• 1:02:03
  Yes. Now, you know, earlier, like I
• 1:02:05
  said, I saw you on television when you had a beard.
• 1:02:08
  You said you're working at the bowling alley, right?
• 1:02:11
  That's correct. What do you do out there at the
• 1:02:13
  bowling alley? I work in the back.
• 1:02:16
  You mean back putting the pins up or?
• 1:02:18
  Yes. If the machine malfunctions, I
• 1:02:20
  repair it. Got a degree in data processing?
• 1:02:24
  No. No.
• 1:02:25
  What do you have a degree in? Psychology?
• 1:02:29
  Degree in psychology. That's pretty normal actually.
• 1:02:34
  Well, yeah, fair. I I know somebody doesn't
• 1:02:37
  actually, I don't even know what she does now, but I know for a
• 1:02:39
  while she's been working in a car wash, so anything could
• 1:02:42
  happen. OK.
• 1:02:45
  Oh, you have a degree in psychology?
• 1:02:46
  Yes. Don't have a degree in data
• 1:02:49
  processing? No.
• 1:02:50
  Well, where did this data processing come in?
• 1:02:52
  That's my minor. But wouldn't that mean that you
• 1:02:54
  still have a degree in it? Like it's a minor, It's a degree
• 1:02:56
  or it's not a whole, just a minor.
• 1:02:59
  OK. Well, I think you would just get
• 1:03:00
  a degree in philosophy or psychology, OK.
• 1:03:05
  I thought he asked you what your degree was early or was in
• 1:03:08
  earlier and you said data processing and then you had to
• 1:03:11
  drag the psychology. So it's psychology.
• 1:03:13
  OK. And do you like kids, don't you?
• 1:03:16
  Yes, I do like to work around kids, right?
• 1:03:18
  Yes, like to be with kids, don't you?
• 1:03:20
  Yes, that's what you told us one-on-one or that's what you
• 1:03:24
  told us on told the newspaper, the TV people in that interview,
• 1:03:28
  right? Uh huh.
• 1:03:29
  Do you have any cassette tapes out there?
• 1:03:31
  Plenty. Do you have any cassette tapes
• 1:03:33
  where you were talking about being surrounded in a trailer or
• 1:03:36
  something with armed men or police outside?
• 1:03:39
  And how would you escape from that trailer?
• 1:03:40
  Yes or no? No.
• 1:03:42
  OK. Did you have any type of tape
• 1:03:44
  recording that was similar to escaping from somebody that was
• 1:03:47
  surrounding you? Yes.
• 1:03:49
  Now, don't tell us why you made it at this point, but just tell
• 1:03:52
  us what was on that tape. Tell us what was on that tape.
• 1:03:56
  I had a reason to believe that you don't want to hear this.
• 1:03:59
  What was on the tape, Sir? I was about to leave a trailer.
• 1:04:04
  OK. I had a reason to believe that
• 1:04:06
  somebody was outside. OK.
• 1:04:08
  How many people? I have no idea.
• 1:04:10
  I didn't even know that anyone was out there.
• 1:04:12
  In fact, even on the tape, I said that it might just be
• 1:04:15
  paranoia, but I had a reason for concern.
• 1:04:18
  Go ahead and tell us what else is on the tape.
• 1:04:21
  I was going to leave there and if my brother got home and he
• 1:04:23
  didn't know where I was, he was to listen to the tape and have
• 1:04:27
  some vague idea what was going on.
• 1:04:30
  The hell did you think it was going to happen to you?
• 1:04:31
  I don't know. Do you have another brother or
• 1:04:33
  just the one little brother? It was like 13.
• 1:04:35
  I think just David, OK, I don't know.
• 1:04:44
  That's not suspicious at all that something might happen to
• 1:04:46
  you. OK.
• 1:04:46
  Anyway, how many did you say? How many people were on that
• 1:04:50
  tape? No, I didn't.
• 1:04:52
  And you said you were making this tape for your brother?
• 1:04:54
  Yes. The one you took to church?
• 1:04:56
  No. OK.
• 1:04:58
  Different brother. Different brother.
• 1:05:00
  What were you doing with it? If you're leaving it for your
• 1:05:02
  brother, it was a false alarm. There was no one outside.
• 1:05:06
  Where's your brother at? My brother was.
• 1:05:08
  Excuse me. Where was your brother at?
• 1:05:11
  He was at work. Does he live here in Lawton
• 1:05:13
  also? He lives in Augusta, GA.
• 1:05:18
  Then he was supposed to have the tape somehow In Augusta, GA.
• 1:05:22
  It had. This event happened in Georgia.
• 1:05:25
  OK. OK.
• 1:05:29
  Sorry it's hard to follow some of those.
• 1:05:30
  Yeah, I know. Now you said you were in Georgia
• 1:05:33
  in the spring of 1986, Is that correct?
• 1:05:36
  That's correct. This was in October, is that
• 1:05:38
  correct? That's correct.
• 1:05:40
  What was, I don't understand, After you got out of the
• 1:05:43
  trailer, you snuck out of the trailer and there wasn't anybody
• 1:05:45
  out there after you, somebody after him.
• 1:05:48
  What did he do? I.
• 1:05:50
  Don't know. I mean, I get paranoid, but I'm
• 1:05:54
  also like, a little. I'm also like a small girl that
• 1:05:57
  can be, like, kidnapped early. You know what?
• 1:05:59
  I don't know. Anyway, did you get back and get
• 1:06:02
  your tape? I lived in the trailer.
• 1:06:05
  But I'm getting to Mr. Taylor. Is that no one can tell us when
• 1:06:08
  that tape was made other than you.
• 1:06:09
  Is that correct? That's incorrect.
• 1:06:12
  All right. Who can tell us when the tape
• 1:06:14
  was made? My brother Ron could tell you.
• 1:06:17
  And where is Ron at today? Claxton, GA.
• 1:06:20
  The tape never said anything about the police surrounded you
• 1:06:23
  and you escaping. Certainly not.
• 1:06:25
  Did the police want to see the next morning for questioning?
• 1:06:29
  No, they didn't. No, after they released you at
• 1:06:32
  2:30 in the morning. Oh, OK.
• 1:06:35
  They didn't tell you that you they wanted to see you Skip
• 1:06:38
  subjects on I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
• 1:06:42
  Did the police? Did the police want to see the
• 1:06:44
  next morning for more questioning?
• 1:06:46
  Yes. OK.
• 1:06:48
  And did you go down there? Yes.
• 1:06:49
  As a matter of fact, they come and got you, didn't they?
• 1:06:52
  No, they didn't. No.
• 1:06:54
  Didn't an officer come out and take you down to the police
• 1:06:56
  station? No.
• 1:06:57
  At no time. No.
• 1:06:59
  Can I interject something? No, Sir.
• 1:07:01
  Yes. Go ahead.
• 1:07:02
  I'll be fair to you. OK.
• 1:07:06
  Officer Briley did arrive at my doorstep at about 8:15 Thursday
• 1:07:10
  morning. He asked me to come down to the
• 1:07:12
  police station and he left. He didn't take you down there,
• 1:07:15
  right? No, he didn't.
• 1:07:16
  So you went down there, right? That's correct.
• 1:07:19
  Now, Friday. Did you hire Did you go hire an
• 1:07:21
  attorney? Yes.
• 1:07:23
  Did the police ask you to go back to the crime scene?
• 1:07:26
  Yes. Did you show them the beer can?
• 1:07:29
  No. Why not?
• 1:07:30
  I didn't see it. Did the police take the cast off
• 1:07:32
  your shoes? No.
• 1:07:34
  Take a. Cast.
• 1:07:35
  Take a cast that makes more sense.
• 1:07:37
  Take a cast of your shoes. No.
• 1:07:40
  Do you own on October 1st, 1986? Did you own any tennis shoes?
• 1:07:43
  No. Went to Cameron College, a
• 1:07:47
  college kid and had no tennis shoes in your house.
• 1:07:49
  Is that correct? It's incorrect.
• 1:07:51
  What part of that is incorrect? My brother owned tennis shoes.
• 1:07:55
  But you didn't know any tennis shoes, right?
• 1:07:57
  That's correct. Police asked you to come back to
• 1:08:00
  the station on Friday evening, right?
• 1:08:02
  Or Friday night, right? That's correct.
• 1:08:04
  Did they ask you to bring back this bag of evidence where it
• 1:08:07
  had all the tapes and the cord and a blackjack and the ties?
• 1:08:10
  Did they ask you to bring any of that back with you?
• 1:08:13
  Yes, they did. And did you bring it in with
• 1:08:16
  you? Yes, I did.
• 1:08:18
  And the police went back out to your house, didn't they?
• 1:08:20
  Searched it? Yes.
• 1:08:22
  OK. And had you washed your sleeping
• 1:08:24
  bag, Sir? No.
• 1:08:26
  Had you washed your raincoat? No.
• 1:08:28
  Was there anything else drying out the pillow?
• 1:08:31
  Oh, Was there anything else drying out the pillow?
• 1:08:33
  The pillow. OK.
• 1:08:35
  You would agree that the sleeping bag was wet or damp,
• 1:08:37
  would you not? Yes.
• 1:08:39
  Would you agree that the raincoat was wet or damp?
• 1:08:41
  Yes. But your testimony is the pillow
• 1:08:44
  was your testimony is the pillow was drying out also, is that
• 1:08:48
  correct? Yes.
• 1:08:50
  OK. And Detective Belcher was the
• 1:08:52
  one who went out there and sees those items, didn't he?
• 1:08:55
  Yes. And did you know that Detective
• 1:08:57
  Belcher has testified that he believes those items have been
• 1:08:59
  washed? No.
• 1:09:01
  Mr. Hey, Nancy. Hi, Nancy.
• 1:09:05
  Mr. Calvert. Your Honor, I object to the form
• 1:09:08
  of the question. Detective Belcher has not
• 1:09:10
  testified. The court, Excuse me just a
• 1:09:12
  moment. Read the question or read me the
• 1:09:14
  question to reporter. Mr. Zelps.
• 1:09:17
  Your Honor, I'll withdraw it. I think he's correct on that.
• 1:09:20
  The court. All right.
• 1:09:22
  By Mr. Zelps. Detective Belcher is the one who
• 1:09:24
  did go out there. Is that correct?
• 1:09:26
  Yes. The police arrested you, did
• 1:09:28
  they not? Eventually, yes.
• 1:09:31
  And what did they charge you with?
• 1:09:32
  First degree murder. And what did they arrest you?
• 1:09:35
  What? What time was it?
• 1:09:37
  Around 8:30. And you've told us that you were
• 1:09:40
  in a Mission Village neighborhood at least you said
• 1:09:42
  one or two days. You couldn't remember before
• 1:09:44
  Tina Hogan was murdered, Is that correct?
• 1:09:47
  That's correct. And you also were one or two
• 1:09:50
  houses away, is that correct? I believe so.
• 1:09:53
  That's uncanny that he was in the same neighborhood, one to
• 1:09:56
  two houses down from Athena's home, one to two days before she
• 1:10:03
  was murdered and he found her. That is weird.
• 1:10:09
  Last week Nancy and I read that Robert dropped his brother off
• 1:10:18
  at the Church of God on Lee on 9th and Lee, and that's the same
• 1:10:22
  church that Reverend Ronnie Miller.
• 1:10:25
  Yeah, Reverend Ronnie Miller was the preacher of.
• 1:10:30
  So not only was he in Athena's neighborhood one to two days
• 1:10:36
  before she was murdered and approximately right near her
• 1:10:40
  house, and then that very day that he finds Athena, he goes to
• 1:10:47
  the Church of the. Person the father of the person
• 1:10:54
  that beat her mom. Yeah, he was just dropping his
• 1:10:58
  brother off, but it's a lot of strange things.
• 1:11:02
  Yes, Red Feather. And it's not such a small town
• 1:11:06
  that everyone knows everyone. Yeah, but I mean, it does have
• 1:11:10
  small town vibes because like, I can go to Walmart and see people
• 1:11:17
  so. Interesting.
• 1:11:20
  Yeah, OK. I think we'll just read one more
• 1:11:26
  page and then we're going to call it quits for tonight, OK?
• 1:11:29
  Sounds good to me. I definitely need some water.
• 1:11:33
  And you were one or two houses away, is that correct?
• 1:11:36
  I believe so. Now Mr. Calvert made a big issue
• 1:11:39
  out of you cooperating with the police, right?
• 1:11:41
  Right. The police have been requesting
• 1:11:43
  hair samples from you for some time.
• 1:11:45
  Did they not? No, they didn't.
• 1:11:47
  Never did. They didn't.
• 1:11:49
  Never once had the police asked me for hair samples.
• 1:11:52
  I asked you for hair samples at the preliminary hearing, didn't
• 1:11:55
  I? I didn't appreciate your
• 1:11:56
  attitude then. And I didn't give them to you
• 1:11:58
  when the DEA asked. Mr. Zelps.
• 1:12:01
  Judge, I'm going. I'm.
• 1:12:03
  I'm almost done. I'll try to get along by Mr.
• 1:12:06
  Zelps. I asked you for hair samples at
• 1:12:08
  the preliminary hearing, did I not, Sir?
• 1:12:11
  Yes. And didn't you refuse to give me
• 1:12:13
  the samples of the preliminary hearing?
• 1:12:15
  Yes. Just like you refuse this jury
• 1:12:17
  to look at your statements today, Right?
• 1:12:22
  You want me to finish reading this?
• 1:12:24
  Yeah, just do that one page. I brought them with me, Sir.
• 1:12:28
  I asked you a question. Just like you refused to allow
• 1:12:30
  them to see that those documents.
• 1:12:32
  Is that correct, Sir? Yes.
• 1:12:34
  Somebody gave you good counsel over lunch period, didn't they?
• 1:12:37
  No. They said you ought to let
• 1:12:39
  somebody see something. They're going to think you're
• 1:12:41
  hiding. No one told you that.
• 1:12:44
  No, I thought of it myself. You thought of it yourself.
• 1:12:47
  You didn't cooperate with the police.
• 1:12:48
  You didn't give them hair samples, did you?
• 1:12:51
  Eventually, yes, I did. You never gave the police hair
• 1:12:54
  samples. You gave some hair samples to
• 1:12:56
  your attorney, did you not? That's incorrect.
• 1:12:59
  You said eventually when you did give the police the hair samples
• 1:13:03
  or when did you give the police the hair samples?
• 1:13:06
  On January 6th. January 6th.
• 1:13:08
  And you said you were set up in this case, right?
• 1:13:11
  I said that it was my suspicion who set you up.
• 1:13:14
  This detective over here, Captain Ferguson.
• 1:13:16
  I have no idea. Well, you said it.
• 1:13:19
  Why don't you explain it? Let's do one more pay since it's
• 1:13:25
  getting into that. It's a general suspicion.
• 1:13:27
  You said they screwed up. Didn't they screw up?
• 1:13:29
  I feel so. So they made a mistake.
• 1:13:31
  Is that correct? Yes.
• 1:13:33
  OK. And you pretty much say the
• 1:13:35
  police bungled it. Is that correct?
• 1:13:37
  That's my opinion. Do you know if this man right
• 1:13:39
  here is guilty of anything? I'm far removed from that
• 1:13:42
  decision. They bungled yours, right?
• 1:13:45
  According to you, Yes. Are you nervous today?
• 1:13:48
  Certainly. Is your hand broken out?
• 1:13:51
  Minimally, Yes. Pardon me.
• 1:13:53
  Minimally. Yes.
• 1:13:55
  Minimal. No further questions.
• 1:13:58
  OK. And we'll just stop there, OK?
• 1:14:01
  So you're at page. Yes, Nancy, there are many, many
• 1:14:07
  strange coincidences and Joy's constantly calling Harvey
• 1:14:13
  Templeton the rat. I don't know.
• 1:14:16
  I have a. Oh, you didn't get your shirt
• 1:14:18
  from Joel? OK, we'll figure it out.
• 1:14:21
  I don't know what's going on there.
• 1:14:25
  We'll figure it out. Sorry about that.
• 1:14:26
  I think Joel's in the background.
• 1:14:28
  He's, I think he's in the background.
• 1:14:31
  It looks like it. His device is not connected.
• 1:14:33
  Yeah, interesting. He was probably fixing TikTok
• 1:14:37
  which was fixed like 10 minutes ago.
• 1:14:44
  So sorry, TikTok. Sorry, TikTok, which by the way
• 1:14:49
  we are streaming on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube X.
• 1:14:55
  Streams on LinkedIn, that's. Crazy.
• 1:14:56
  Lots of people do, actually. No offense, LinkedIn.
• 1:15:01
  And then Roku and fire and then TikTok.
• 1:15:05
  So I thank you all for listening tonight and for joining us, and
• 1:15:13
  we will get back to the. I might actually do a live this
• 1:15:18
  week and do some more of this 'cause I get kind of bored
• 1:15:23
  during the week and, you know, sometimes I'm just like, maybe I
• 1:15:27
  should do a live. Yeah.
• 1:15:28
  So I might do that. Yeah.
• 1:15:30
  And I haven't been on here in a little bit, so I just wanted to
• 1:15:34
  say one small thing. Yeah, I haven't been on here in
• 1:15:40
  a little bit. So I just want to say one small
• 1:15:41
  thing. The death of Ken really made me
• 1:15:46
  very sad. And I don't want to get into
• 1:15:48
  anything like conspiratorial or any, you know, Oh no, I'm not
• 1:15:53
  accusing anyone of anything. No, OK.
• 1:15:54
  I was just like, I didn't know you were going to get into this.
• 1:15:56
  No, no, I just, you said something really brief or
• 1:15:58
  whatever. I just wanted to express my
• 1:16:00
  condolences, that's all. I'm not, you know, I don't even
• 1:16:05
  know what my opinion is on anything other than it's just
• 1:16:08
  really tragic and that I hope that his family's OK and I
• 1:16:12
  really feel for his daughter. And that's all I really wanted
• 1:16:14
  to say. I I don't have any.
• 1:16:17
  Yeah. It's no, it's no drama.
• 1:16:19
  It's no, no, nothing. You know, I'll wait to see what
• 1:16:24
  it is. I've had conflicting feelings
• 1:16:26
  and I don't know, I just wanted to say that since I haven't been
• 1:16:28
  on here in like a month and just I just hope that he rests in
• 1:16:32
  peace. And it's just really sad to
• 1:16:33
  hear. So that's really all that I had
• 1:16:35
  to say about it. Yeah, and I mean, my sentiments
• 1:16:39
  are the same, you know. Oh, he was found 20 minutes from
• 1:16:42
  you. Oh, I'm so sorry.
• 1:16:44
  Yeah, I mean, we didn't know Ken, but I I feel like he was
• 1:16:48
  the one saving grace in that whole situation and.
• 1:16:52
  He wasn't without flaws, but he, I think he actually cared about
• 1:16:58
  his daughter. And I'm not saying nobody else
• 1:17:00
  does. I'm just saying that it's just
• 1:17:01
  sad to see that not only is a life lost, but so is a father, a
• 1:17:06
  friend, a brother, a son, you know, But that's, that's all I
• 1:17:11
  really had to say about it. I just wanted to acknowledge it
• 1:17:13
  in some form or fashion. None of my condolences could
• 1:17:18
  ever be enough. So.
• 1:17:19
  Yeah. And I mean, I've had so many
• 1:17:23
  loved ones past that it never gets easier.
• 1:17:26
  It never gets easier. And.
• 1:17:28
  Especially being so young and it being a tragic thing, you know,
• 1:17:31
  no matter whether it was intentional, unintentional, it's
• 1:17:34
  a tragic death. Yeah, yeah, my little brother
• 1:17:37
  died at 30 from cancer and but it was super fast it he only
• 1:17:44
  lasted a month. And so that was jarring for
• 1:17:49
  sure. So when a a young person like
• 1:17:52
  that passes, it's, it's even more devastating.
• 1:17:55
  I think so. So.
• 1:17:58
  Well, with all of that, sorry that I had to get into that.
• 1:18:01
  I just wanted to say that little piece.
• 1:18:03
  There's nothing crazy, you know, in my mind right now.
• 1:18:07
  I just, yeah. But thank you guys all for
• 1:18:11
  joining in and you know, good to be back.
• 1:18:16
  Hopefully we can work on some other stuff.
• 1:18:17
  We have been working on a few other things behind the scenes,
• 1:18:20
  you know, in various cases. And so hopefully we can bring
• 1:18:24
  something special to y'all. Yep, and that is true.
• 1:18:28
  Grief never goes away. You just learn to make space for
• 1:18:30
  it. Yeah.
• 1:18:31
  So much love to everybody. And it will be a while before
• 1:18:35
  the toxicology and everything comes out so.
• 1:18:39
  So. But we hope that you all have a
• 1:18:42
  great week and that you go out and do something good to change
• 1:18:46
  the world for the better. Bye everybody.
• 1:18:52
  Hi, I'm Beaker with Military Broadcast Radio TV.
• 1:18:56
  We're your virtual MWR bringing veterans radio, podcasts,
• 1:19:00
  gaming, animation, 3D printing and a community that never
• 1:19:05
  leaves you behind. Download our Roku or mobile app
• 1:19:08
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