Latest / Something Extra / Breaking the Exhausting Cycle of Pure Achievement w/ Trevor Gavin

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Breaking the Exhausting Cycle of Pure Achievement w/ Trevor Gavin · Something Extra

• 0:01
  Trevor Gavin: I'm thinking through a lot about productivity and a lot about leadership,
• 0:05
  Trevor Gavin: and,
• 0:07
  Trevor Gavin: and I think I certainly believe the lie that if I
• 0:12
  Trevor Gavin: if I just get smarter about how I work, then I will overcome
• 0:16
  Trevor Gavin: the internal obstacles.
• 0:18
  Trevor Gavin: And I do believe that God hard...
• 0:20
  Trevor Gavin: Hardwired us, designed us to create, to cultivate, to have dominion,
• 0:25
  Trevor Gavin: and and and he gives gifts.
• 0:27
  Trevor Gavin: And so it's not to try to divorce these things or pit
• 0:31
  Trevor Gavin: them against each other, but how do we become,
• 0:36
  Trevor Gavin: grow in holistic, humanity?
• 0:41
  Lisa Nichols: It takes something a little more to lead with impact.
• 0:45
  Lisa Nichols: I'm Lisa Nichols, author of Something Extra, and this podcast
• 0:49
  Lisa Nichols: was inspired by our daughter, Ali, whose additional chromosome has shaped
• 0:54
  Lisa Nichols: how I see people in leadership.
• 0:56
  Lisa Nichols: Each episode features conversations with inspiring leaders from around the world
• 1:01
  Lisa Nichols: about what truly defines how they lead and serve others.
• 1:05
  Lisa Nichols: If you enjoyed today's conversation, please consider leaving a five
• 1:09
  Lisa Nichols: star review.
• 1:10
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• 1:13
  Lisa Nichols: And if you'd like to go deeper, my book, Something Extra, is available on
• 1:16
  Lisa Nichols: Amazon and through other major book retailers.
• 1:21
  Lisa Nichols: Joining us today is Trevor Gavin, head of growth at Barna Group.
• 1:25
  Lisa Nichols: Trevor's career spans executive sales, growth leadership, and pastoral
• 1:29
  Lisa Nichols: ministry.
• 1:30
  Lisa Nichols: He joins the show to share his personal journey of shifting from shame driven
• 1:34
  Lisa Nichols: achievement to leading from true identity.
• 1:37
  Lisa Nichols: Well, Trevor Gavin, welcome to the something extra podcast.
• 1:41
  Lisa Nichols: I am so delighted.
• 1:43
  Lisa Nichols: Oh my gosh.
• 1:44
  Lisa Nichols: We've already been having an incredible conversation before we even started.
• 1:48
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 1:48
  Trevor Gavin: Such an honor to be here, and thank you for making the time for
• 1:51
  Trevor Gavin: it.
• 1:52
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 1:53
  Lisa Nichols: I'm excited.
• 1:53
  Lisa Nichols: I'm excited for our listeners to hear your story.
• 1:56
  Lisa Nichols: I'm excited for them to learn more about what you're doing, today.
• 2:00
  Lisa Nichols: But, you know, I'm just gonna start.
• 2:03
  Lisa Nichols: How many of my podcasts...
• 2:05
  Lisa Nichols: I'd like to go back and say, how many of my podcasts does start
• 2:08
  Lisa Nichols: with Jim Bechtold?
• 2:09
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 2:12
  Lisa Nichols: Jim Bechtold connected us,
• 2:13
  Trevor Gavin: and he
• 2:14
  Lisa Nichols: said, Louisa,
• 2:16
  Lisa Nichols: Trevor's story is amazing.
• 2:18
  Lisa Nichols: It's incredible.
• 2:18
  Lisa Nichols: You have to meet him, and and, and we did.
• 2:22
  Lisa Nichols: And, I'm just...
• 2:24
  Lisa Nichols: I'm really just delighted to have you here.
• 2:26
  Lisa Nichols: But let me just start by saying, what part of your story do you
• 2:29
  Lisa Nichols: think people need to understand now, you know, to really understand
• 2:33
  Lisa Nichols: who you are today?
• 2:34
  Lisa Nichols: What what part of your story?
• 2:35
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 2:36
  Trevor Gavin: There's, there's a quote that I read a while ago that
• 2:40
  Trevor Gavin: has been so meaningful to me, and the quote, basically goes like this.
• 2:44
  Trevor Gavin: Most people spend the first half of their life building a ladder, trying
• 2:49
  Trevor Gavin: to climb up the rungs and whatever it is towards achievement, towards their goal,
• 2:53
  Trevor Gavin: to realize at the beginning of the second half that they've leaned it against
• 2:56
  Trevor Gavin: the wrong wall.
• 2:58
  Trevor Gavin: And that story for me, that,
• 3:02
  Trevor Gavin: tells a lot about how I have experienced,
• 3:05
  Trevor Gavin: growth, how I've experienced ambition and drive both
• 3:09
  Trevor Gavin: just in life generally, but in business in particular.
• 3:12
  Trevor Gavin: And then to realize, as I'm transitioning, looking at
• 3:16
  Trevor Gavin: second half of life now and where I, where I
• 3:20
  Trevor Gavin: wanna go and in my life and growth and maturity that, a lot
• 3:24
  Trevor Gavin: of the first half of life was spent building
• 3:28
  Trevor Gavin: out of, mixed motives to be sure, but, was largely
• 3:32
  Trevor Gavin: driven by, a lot of fear and some shame.
• 3:37
  Trevor Gavin: And that comes through my past through, a lot of my story.
• 3:41
  Trevor Gavin: But being unaware of it for a long time and what was motivating me
• 3:45
  Trevor Gavin: and the complexity of it is I kept getting rewarded and affirmed
• 3:50
  Trevor Gavin: for the things that I was doing outwardly,
• 3:53
  Trevor Gavin: but being completely disconnected to what was going on inside of me
• 3:57
  Trevor Gavin: as what was motivating me to do these things.
• 4:01
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 4:02
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I tell you, that part resonated with me because, you know,
• 4:06
  Lisa Nichols: you said that you let out of achievement.
• 4:08
  Trevor Gavin: Yep.
• 4:09
  Lisa Nichols: And work was where you went to actually prove yourself.
• 4:13
  Lisa Nichols: And, Trevor, I don't think that is unlike
• 4:17
  Lisa Nichols: a lot of people, myself included.
• 4:19
  Lisa Nichols: I've been there before too, you know?
• 4:23
  Lisa Nichols: But when did you first realize...
• 4:25
  Lisa Nichols: What was your turning point where you realized that you had tied your achievement,
• 4:30
  Lisa Nichols: you know, to your value rather than your identity?
• 4:34
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 4:34
  Trevor Gavin: There's actually...
• 4:35
  Trevor Gavin: So there's two stories that come to mind on that.
• 4:38
  Trevor Gavin: The first one is my...
• 4:40
  Trevor Gavin: The way I grew up, I had great parents, but my mom got sick
• 4:43
  Trevor Gavin: really young with a disease called Addison's disease and it functionally
• 4:48
  Trevor Gavin: changed our entire life.
• 4:49
  Trevor Gavin: You know, we went from having family dinners and schedule things to
• 4:53
  Trevor Gavin: my dad working to try to be the sole.
• 5:00
  Trevor Gavin: And so the culture that got created in our household was unspoken, but as
• 5:04
  Trevor Gavin: we need to survive, and it's all hands on deck.
• 5:07
  Trevor Gavin: And so what came from that, for me was a strong level and a
• 5:11
  Trevor Gavin: need for protection and independence.
• 5:13
  Trevor Gavin: And so I just kinda had to figure out how to do things on
• 5:16
  Trevor Gavin: my own because my mom needed to be taken care of.
• 5:19
  Trevor Gavin: My dad needed to provide.
• 5:20
  Trevor Gavin: I was only seven years old at the time.
• 5:22
  Trevor Gavin: And so that independence,
• 5:25
  Trevor Gavin: actually became a source of motivation and achievement because
• 5:29
  Trevor Gavin: I learned at an early age to kind of figure out things on my
• 5:32
  Trevor Gavin: own that I shouldn't have at that time thinking back on it.
• 5:35
  Trevor Gavin: And so that was that was already in me.
• 5:37
  Trevor Gavin: And I think God has hardwired me towards,
• 5:41
  Trevor Gavin: being decisive and action and things like that.
• 5:43
  Trevor Gavin: But there's a a shadow side to all of those things even in the
• 5:46
  Trevor Gavin: way that God wires us.
• 5:48
  Trevor Gavin: And so, so that was a big part of my story.
• 5:50
  Trevor Gavin: And then when I was, when I was nineteen, my dad died unexpectedly.
• 5:54
  Trevor Gavin: And my dad and I were, best friends.
• 5:57
  Trevor Gavin: And despite,
• 5:59
  Trevor Gavin: despite all of the challenges that were going on at home, I never, I
• 6:02
  Trevor Gavin: never remember him missing a football game, a football practice, or
• 6:06
  Trevor Gavin: anything like that.
• 6:07
  Trevor Gavin: And so my dad died unexpectedly at at nineteen.
• 6:12
  Trevor Gavin: And because of my mom's illness, it again kinda threw
• 6:16
  Trevor Gavin: in another level of need for independence and provision.
• 6:20
  Trevor Gavin: And so from that point on, I then kicked into overdrive
• 6:24
  Trevor Gavin: towards achievement.
• 6:25
  Trevor Gavin: And at the time, you know, I didn't go to college.
• 6:29
  Trevor Gavin: I actually had dropped out of junior college.
• 6:31
  Trevor Gavin: I was in pastoral ministry.
• 6:33
  Trevor Gavin: I felt a call to go plant a church with my wife, in a
• 6:37
  Trevor Gavin: different state.
• 6:37
  Trevor Gavin: And so we got married at twenty one.
• 6:39
  Trevor Gavin: We had our first daughter at twenty three.
• 6:41
  Trevor Gavin: We went out and planted our first church at twenty three.
• 6:43
  Trevor Gavin: And then we also were part of co founding a fintech company at twenty
• 6:47
  Trevor Gavin: three.
• 6:48
  Trevor Gavin: And so for me, at that age, I had nothing but energy
• 6:53
  Trevor Gavin: and drive.
• 6:54
  Trevor Gavin: And so I used that, and I...
• 6:57
  Trevor Gavin: And it was for all good things.
• 6:58
  Trevor Gavin: I was trying to provide for my family.
• 7:00
  Trevor Gavin: I was trying to fulfill, this call that was on my life.
• 7:03
  Trevor Gavin: And then at twenty six, I had two different things happen that, that
• 7:08
  Trevor Gavin: changed everything for me.
• 7:09
  Trevor Gavin: Number one was a burnout.
• 7:11
  Trevor Gavin: I just did not have the emotional capacity, the chronological maturity,
• 7:16
  Trevor Gavin: the boundaries, the limits in place to slow down.
• 7:19
  Trevor Gavin: And so my body did that for me.
• 7:21
  Trevor Gavin: I really like the flying either.
• 7:23
  Trevor Gavin: You get to choose a Sabbath or a Sabbath will be chosen for you.
• 7:27
  Trevor Gavin: And, the first option is much better.
• 7:29
  Trevor Gavin: But the second option, the second option happened to me.
• 7:33
  Trevor Gavin: And so when that burnout happened, I was
• 7:37
  Trevor Gavin: struck with the reality that I could not produce at the way that
• 7:41
  Trevor Gavin: I wanted to, and my body would not allow me to do it.
• 7:44
  Trevor Gavin: And so that was the one of the first times of looking back and
• 7:47
  Trevor Gavin: going, well, if I can't do that, what am I worth then?
• 7:50
  Trevor Gavin: And I had established an identity without it being conscious at all,
• 7:54
  Trevor Gavin: that my value and my worth from God was based on
• 7:59
  Trevor Gavin: my production for, for him.
• 8:00
  Trevor Gavin: And so it felt a bit employee employer relationship.
• 8:04
  Trevor Gavin: And then, on the work side, if I couldn't produce the same way that
• 8:08
  Trevor Gavin: I had been, then what value am I worth to my wife, to,
• 8:13
  Trevor Gavin: my friends, to anybody else?
• 8:15
  Trevor Gavin: And that had all been running under the surface that I was completely unaware
• 8:19
  Trevor Gavin: of.
• 8:20
  Trevor Gavin: And so I had to, that that has been a long journey and continues
• 8:23
  Trevor Gavin: to be a long journey because I tend to look at life a bit
• 8:27
  Trevor Gavin: black and white, and it's either a win or a loss or success
• 8:31
  Trevor Gavin: or failure.
• 8:32
  Trevor Gavin: And so there's not much curiosity there for me at times.
• 8:36
  Trevor Gavin: And so that led me to, believe that I'm a failure, which led
• 8:40
  Trevor Gavin: to deep shame.
• 8:41
  Trevor Gavin: And the only tools in the toolbox that I had at the time to
• 8:44
  Trevor Gavin: know how to deal with shame was to try and outwork it.
• 8:48
  Trevor Gavin: And so therefore, I tried to put in more to to be able to
• 8:51
  Trevor Gavin: overcompensate for the shame that I couldn't even identify at the time because it
• 8:55
  Trevor Gavin: was just running under the surface unquestioned.
• 8:59
  Trevor Gavin: And so that was a crisis for me.
• 9:02
  Trevor Gavin: And then the second one was unrelated to,
• 9:06
  Trevor Gavin: business or anything.
• 9:07
  Trevor Gavin: But we had, when we had our first daughter who was also named Allie.
• 9:12
  Trevor Gavin: When she came out, it was, you know, classic.
• 9:15
  Trevor Gavin: I think every every parent can relate to it.
• 9:17
  Trevor Gavin: I just I fell in love with her the second I saw her.
• 9:20
  Trevor Gavin: It's my daughter.
• 9:21
  Trevor Gavin: She's my little girl.
• 9:22
  Trevor Gavin: We were attached and bonded,
• 9:25
  Trevor Gavin: immediately.
• 9:26
  Trevor Gavin: And then, we got pregnant with, our son, about
• 9:30
  Trevor Gavin: three years later.
• 9:31
  Trevor Gavin: And when he was born, I felt I...
• 9:34
  Trevor Gavin: That that same thing would be true.
• 9:36
  Trevor Gavin: And now I have a boy.
• 9:37
  Trevor Gavin: I have a sports background.
• 9:39
  Trevor Gavin: We're gonna be able to play catch together.
• 9:41
  Trevor Gavin: All all of these things.
• 9:42
  Trevor Gavin: And when he was born, I did not have that attachment with him.
• 9:47
  Trevor Gavin: And it was very disorienting for me.
• 9:50
  Trevor Gavin: And so I kind of thought through it.
• 9:51
  Trevor Gavin: I go, well, maybe it's, it's the second child.
• 9:54
  Trevor Gavin: It's different than having a first child.
• 9:56
  Trevor Gavin: Maybe, you know, the attachment, will come.
• 10:00
  Trevor Gavin: And for probably about two months, I felt a disconnect between me
• 10:04
  Trevor Gavin: and my son.
• 10:05
  Trevor Gavin: And that showed up, and I tended to wanna hold Allie and take care
• 10:09
  Trevor Gavin: of her more and not so much with, with my son, Bear.
• 10:13
  Trevor Gavin: And about three months into it, I was holding him one day, and
• 10:18
  Trevor Gavin: I had, an epiphany, in the moment.
• 10:22
  Trevor Gavin: And what happened in that moment is I felt,
• 10:26
  Trevor Gavin: this deep sense of grief, which was, I think I was
• 10:30
  Trevor Gavin: trying to protect my son from me dying early
• 10:34
  Trevor Gavin: and having to go through what I went through with my dad.
• 10:39
  Trevor Gavin: Mhmm.
• 10:40
  Trevor Gavin: And so in a
• 10:42
  Trevor Gavin: very subconscious way, I...
• 10:45
  Trevor Gavin: My body was saying, if I create distance from my son,
• 10:49
  Trevor Gavin: then if I die young the same way that my dad did,
• 10:53
  Trevor Gavin: then he won't have to feel the things that I still feel today,
• 10:58
  Trevor Gavin: that I still go through.
• 11:00
  Trevor Gavin: And I had this really profound moment between me, my son, and God,
• 11:05
  Trevor Gavin: which was either I lean into this because I
• 11:09
  Trevor Gavin: don't I don't know how many days I get.
• 11:11
  Trevor Gavin: And I love him with everything that I have, the way my dad did
• 11:15
  Trevor Gavin: for me.
• 11:16
  Trevor Gavin: And whatever is going to be is whatever it's going to be, I don't
• 11:19
  Trevor Gavin: get to control that.
• 11:21
  Trevor Gavin: Or I protect myself in a way that I think that I'm trying to
• 11:25
  Trevor Gavin: protect him.
• 11:25
  Trevor Gavin: And then I ultimately know I will likely sabotage our relationship.
• 11:31
  Trevor Gavin: And so that was, as I was unpacking that there was a lot
• 11:35
  Trevor Gavin: of control.
• 11:36
  Trevor Gavin: There was fear.
• 11:37
  Trevor Gavin: I didn't want him...
• 11:38
  Trevor Gavin: I don't want him to have to go through what I went through.
• 11:42
  Trevor Gavin: But I had a moment to make a decision there, and I've had to
• 11:45
  Trevor Gavin: continue to make that decision.
• 11:46
  Trevor Gavin: And now my son and I have an incredible relationship.
• 11:49
  Trevor Gavin: And, and I love him, you know, with all of my heart.
• 11:52
  Trevor Gavin: But that, that moment spoke to me about, well, this is actually
• 11:57
  Trevor Gavin: how I live.
• 11:58
  Trevor Gavin: I'm trying to protect myself because I'm dealing with,
• 12:03
  Trevor Gavin: fear of death, of control, of grief
• 12:06
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 12:06
  Trevor Gavin: Anxiety, fear of failure.
• 12:08
  Trevor Gavin: And so now I have these two things that are happening when I was
• 12:12
  Trevor Gavin: twenty six,
• 12:14
  Trevor Gavin: where I'm trying to chase a ghost and making my father proud,
• 12:18
  Trevor Gavin: who I don't have.
• 12:19
  Trevor Gavin: I I don't have him to look to wisdom how to navigate this situation.
• 12:22
  Trevor Gavin: We also ended up, exiting the company when I was twenty seven with a
• 12:26
  Trevor Gavin: successful acquisition, and that, you know, has its own, challenges
• 12:30
  Trevor Gavin: and great things around it.
• 12:32
  Trevor Gavin: But I have this opportunity, where I'm trying to chase this ghost, and that's
• 12:36
  Trevor Gavin: leading me leading me to greater achievement, which is ultimately not fulfilling what I
• 12:40
  Trevor Gavin: wanted to fill, which is leading me to greater shame.
• 12:43
  Trevor Gavin: And then I have this protection thing where I have, this fear and anxiety
• 12:48
  Trevor Gavin: that is also leading to shame about how I'm showing up with my family.
• 12:52
  Trevor Gavin: And all of those things kind of hit right around the same time and,
• 12:55
  Trevor Gavin: and forced in a really loving way for me to rethink
• 13:00
  Trevor Gavin: the way I'm showing up and the tools that I have in my tool
• 13:03
  Trevor Gavin: belt are not the tools that are going to help me get to where
• 13:06
  Trevor Gavin: I ultimately want to go.
• 13:08
  Trevor Gavin: And then I gotta figure out what do I do with that.
• 13:11
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 13:13
  Lisa Nichols: Gosh.
• 13:14
  Lisa Nichols: Trevor, thank you so much for your vulnerability with all of that.
• 13:20
  Lisa Nichols: I was just...
• 13:20
  Lisa Nichols: I spoke at a group on Friday, and the whole
• 13:25
  Lisa Nichols: the whole theme of this conference was AI, the human
• 13:30
  Lisa Nichols: humanity in the age of the era of AI.
• 13:33
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 13:34
  Lisa Nichols: And that is one thing nobody else
• 13:39
  Lisa Nichols: can do for us.
• 13:40
  Lisa Nichols: It's something a machine cannot do is the inner work.
• 13:42
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, you've done a lot of inner work.
• 13:46
  Lisa Nichols: You've done a lot of inner work, and I think,
• 13:51
  Lisa Nichols: you know, so many people just go through life, and they don't wanna go
• 13:54
  Lisa Nichols: there because it's too hard.
• 13:56
  Lisa Nichols: It's hard.
• 13:57
  Trevor Gavin: It is.
• 13:57
  Lisa Nichols: Inner work is hard work.
• 13:59
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 13:59
  Trevor Gavin: Right?
• 14:00
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 14:00
  Trevor Gavin: The disorientation
• 14:02
  Trevor Gavin: of it all.
• 14:02
  Trevor Gavin: Mhmm.
• 14:03
  Trevor Gavin: And especially when I'm trying to be productive, I'm trying to produce, I'm trying
• 14:07
  Trevor Gavin: to grow.
• 14:08
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 14:09
  Trevor Gavin: You know, that all felt like wasted time, because I
• 14:13
  Trevor Gavin: need to get back to accomplishing these things.
• 14:15
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 14:16
  Trevor Gavin: And and yet the rub between it is, that I wasn't becoming
• 14:21
  Trevor Gavin: the type of person.
• 14:22
  Trevor Gavin: You know, one of one of my favorite quotes is, the best thing that
• 14:26
  Trevor Gavin: God...
• 14:26
  Trevor Gavin: The best thing that the world gets out of you is a transformed self.
• 14:30
  Trevor Gavin: And so I started to think through, well, who who is the type of
• 14:33
  Trevor Gavin: person I'm becoming?
• 14:35
  Trevor Gavin: And if I fast forward five, ten, fifteen, twenty years, do I like that
• 14:39
  Trevor Gavin: direction?
• 14:39
  Trevor Gavin: Is that who I want to become?
• 14:41
  Trevor Gavin: And my fear was at the time, and this is part of my past.
• 14:45
  Trevor Gavin: I have a lot of divorce in my family through generations.
• 14:49
  Trevor Gavin: I have, alcoholics and all these different unfortunate
• 14:53
  Trevor Gavin: things in my family line that have,
• 14:56
  Trevor Gavin: really terrible decisions that have hurt generations.
• 14:59
  Trevor Gavin: And so when I looked down the future a bit, what I saw was
• 15:03
  Trevor Gavin: someone who outwardly was very successful,
• 15:07
  Trevor Gavin: had a really good LinkedIn profile, drove a good car,
• 15:11
  Trevor Gavin: but both individually and as a family,
• 15:15
  Trevor Gavin: were completely deteriorating.
• 15:17
  Trevor Gavin: And, were an absolute mess.
• 15:19
  Trevor Gavin: And those, that didn't seem like a win anymore in the same way that
• 15:22
  Trevor Gavin: it did prior.
• 15:23
  Trevor Gavin: It wasn't a trade off that I wanted to make anymore.
• 15:26
  Trevor Gavin: But I didn't really have any tools to know how to...
• 15:28
  Trevor Gavin: Okay.
• 15:28
  Trevor Gavin: So now what do I do?
• 15:30
  Lisa Nichols: I mean So what did you do?
• 15:32
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, the tools were, you know, work harder.
• 15:36
  Lisa Nichols: Just work harder.
• 15:37
  Lisa Nichols: Work harder.
• 15:38
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 15:38
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 15:40
  Lisa Nichols: But what what tools did you start to put in your tool belt so
• 15:43
  Lisa Nichols: that you could
• 15:45
  Lisa Nichols: be a different person and show up differently?
• 15:48
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Trevor Gavin: And that was the, I wanted...
• 15:50
  Trevor Gavin: There was a line given to me by a mentor, which was I wanted
• 15:53
  Trevor Gavin: to become the type of person for whom it was more natural
• 15:58
  Trevor Gavin: to do the things that Jesus didn't, or I wanted to become the type
• 16:02
  Trevor Gavin: of person for whom it was more natural to have an identity that wasn't
• 16:06
  Trevor Gavin: rooted in just my achievement and things like that.
• 16:12
  Trevor Gavin: So, the inner work that was part of my journey was a
• 16:16
  Trevor Gavin: lot...
• 16:16
  Trevor Gavin: Was therapy, was spiritual direction,
• 16:19
  Trevor Gavin: was going back, to look at the grief and the trauma that had
• 16:23
  Trevor Gavin: happened and to honestly name that and confront that.
• 16:26
  Trevor Gavin: I think the big part of it was I was just trying to outrun
• 16:29
  Trevor Gavin: it all with achievement.
• 16:30
  Trevor Gavin: And, and, you know, failure is a great teacher in that too.
• 16:35
  Trevor Gavin: I had a couple I had a couple big failures in in business,
• 16:39
  Trevor Gavin: e...
• 16:39
  Trevor Gavin: Even in our church that didn't go the way that I thought they would
• 16:42
  Trevor Gavin: go.
• 16:43
  Trevor Gavin: I just...
• 16:43
  Trevor Gavin: I thought everything would be up into the right.
• 16:45
  Trevor Gavin: And if I could work harder and read more and be smarter, that I
• 16:49
  Trevor Gavin: would somehow avoid all of those things.
• 16:51
  Trevor Gavin: So failure is a great teacher.
• 16:53
  Trevor Gavin: And one of the things that I learned from failure was,
• 16:57
  Trevor Gavin: when everything comes true that I didn't want to come true,
• 17:02
  Trevor Gavin: I still had friends and my family stick by me.
• 17:06
  Trevor Gavin: And so I had to, I had to update the story that I was
• 17:09
  Trevor Gavin: telling, which the story that I was telling was that everybody dies
• 17:14
  Trevor Gavin: and everybody will eventually leave.
• 17:16
  Trevor Gavin: So therefore don't get too close and don't be too vulnerable
• 17:20
  Trevor Gavin: out out of protection.
• 17:22
  Trevor Gavin: And so I had to update the story in my mind because after some
• 17:25
  Trevor Gavin: of these failures, after burnout, people didn't leave me.
• 17:29
  Trevor Gavin: So then I was really confused because Yeah.
• 17:32
  Trevor Gavin: I didn't think that...
• 17:33
  Trevor Gavin: And I still struggle with this today, which is I I do not think
• 17:37
  Trevor Gavin: that I'm lovable,
• 17:39
  Trevor Gavin: based on who I am.
• 17:40
  Trevor Gavin: Rather, it has to be based on what do I I achieve and produce
• 17:43
  Trevor Gavin: for other people.
• 17:45
  Trevor Gavin: And so I had to update the story that, okay, if if these people
• 17:48
  Trevor Gavin: didn't leave me, what does that mean?
• 17:51
  Trevor Gavin: And then I'm struck with the reality that I have to either believe that
• 17:55
  Trevor Gavin: they're hoping that I get back on the right track and that I'll start
• 17:59
  Trevor Gavin: winning again or that they actually care about me for me.
• 18:02
  Lisa Nichols: Really love you.
• 18:04
  Lisa Nichols: For us.
• 18:04
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 18:04
  Lisa Nichols: And for you.
• 18:04
  Trevor Gavin: And if that's true, maybe that's true about god as well.
• 18:08
  Trevor Gavin: And if those things are true, what would that do to the way that
• 18:12
  Trevor Gavin: I live and show up again if it's actually not as true as I
• 18:15
  Trevor Gavin: believed it was that achievement and performance were my primary identities
• 18:20
  Trevor Gavin: and, primarily, why people and god, would love me.
• 18:25
  Lisa Nichols: Aw.
• 18:25
  Lisa Nichols: It's so beautiful.
• 18:27
  Lisa Nichols: You know, I wasn't gonna go here, but I'm gonna go here now because
• 18:31
  Lisa Nichols: we're kind of talking about it.
• 18:33
  Lisa Nichols: But I just, you know, Ally, my Ally has the something extra.
• 18:37
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 18:37
  Trevor Gavin: Right?
• 18:37
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 18:37
  Lisa Nichols: Exaggerate chromosome.
• 18:39
  Lisa Nichols: And yesterday, I wrote something that she,
• 18:44
  Lisa Nichols: just a couple things that have happened that she just...
• 18:46
  Lisa Nichols: It really just I started thinking about how she shows up.
• 18:50
  Lisa Nichols: And one of the things that she does, Trevor, that I absolutely
• 18:55
  Lisa Nichols: love...
• 18:56
  Lisa Nichols: And this is pure.
• 18:57
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, because she doesn't know any other way, really.
• 19:01
  Lisa Nichols: But I said, you know, sometimes she'll meet somebody, and she'll just, like,
• 19:05
  Lisa Nichols: stop and say, I really love your heart.
• 19:09
  Lisa Nichols: And I'm like, you know what?
• 19:10
  Lisa Nichols: She's not saying, hey, Trevor.
• 19:12
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 19:13
  Lisa Nichols: I love that you accomplished this.
• 19:15
  Lisa Nichols: Hey, Trevor.
• 19:16
  Lisa Nichols: I love that you founded this tech company.
• 19:18
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Lisa Nichols: I love how you look.
• 19:20
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 19:20
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 19:21
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 19:21
  Lisa Nichols: None of that.
• 19:22
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 19:23
  Lisa Nichols: She goes, I love your heart.
• 19:25
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 19:26
  Lisa Nichols: And, boy, I mean, Trevor, it just, like, really strikes
• 19:30
  Lisa Nichols: me because I'm like, oh my goodness.
• 19:33
  Lisa Nichols: And the beautiful thing about that,
• 19:38
  Lisa Nichols: that is exactly the way our heavenly father sees us.
• 19:41
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 19:42
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 19:43
  Lisa Nichols: I mean Yes.
• 19:44
  Lisa Nichols: He said to Jesus,
• 19:46
  Lisa Nichols: this is my son in whom I am loving him well pleased before
• 19:50
  Lisa Nichols: Jesus did anything.
• 19:52
  Trevor Gavin: Any any healings, any teaching, any miracles,
• 19:56
  Trevor Gavin: anything.
• 19:57
  Lisa Nichols: Right.
• 19:58
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 19:58
  Lisa Nichols: And that is precisely...
• 20:00
  Lisa Nichols: And god looks at our heart.
• 20:02
  Lisa Nichols: And so it just reminded me of that.
• 20:04
  Trevor Gavin: And beautiful.
• 20:05
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 20:06
  Lisa Nichols: It's beautiful.
• 20:07
  Lisa Nichols: And nobody taught Ally that.
• 20:08
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, I've never even heard somebody else say that.
• 20:11
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Lisa Nichols: But she'll say that.
• 20:13
  Lisa Nichols: She'll meet somebody, and she really does have that ability to see right to
• 20:17
  Lisa Nichols: the heart.
• 20:17
  Lisa Nichols: So Yeah.
• 20:18
  Lisa Nichols: Anyway, just so beautiful.
• 20:20
  Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much for sharing all that.
• 20:23
  Lisa Nichols: And I just know that there are gonna be listeners out there that are
• 20:27
  Lisa Nichols: like, yeah.
• 20:28
  Lisa Nichols: I probably need to do some deep work.
• 20:30
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 20:31
  Lisa Nichols: I probably need to do some inner healing.
• 20:35
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 20:35
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 20:36
  Trevor Gavin: And it's...
• 20:37
  Trevor Gavin: You know, now being, you know, I'm getting close to forty.
• 20:42
  Trevor Gavin: I'm thinking through a lot about productivity and a lot about leadership.
• 20:46
  Trevor Gavin: And,
• 20:48
  Trevor Gavin: and I think I certainly believe the lie that if I
• 20:52
  Trevor Gavin: if I just get smarter about how I work, then I will overcome
• 20:57
  Trevor Gavin: the internal obstacles.
• 20:59
  Trevor Gavin: And I do believe that God hardwired us, designed us to create,
• 21:03
  Trevor Gavin: to cultivate, to have dominion, and and and he gives gifts.
• 21:08
  Trevor Gavin: And so it's not to try to divorce these things or pit
• 21:12
  Trevor Gavin: them against each other, but how do we become,
• 21:16
  Trevor Gavin: grow in holistic, humanity?
• 21:19
  Trevor Gavin: And so that I'm showing up at my work.
• 21:23
  Trevor Gavin: I'm showing up at home, the way that God has designed me rather
• 21:27
  Trevor Gavin: than, you know, putting on a mask.
• 21:29
  Trevor Gavin: And that was part of what I what I felt as I look back.
• 21:33
  Trevor Gavin: And and now at this point, look back with compassion because that...
• 21:35
  Trevor Gavin: All of us are doing the best with what we have, and had at
• 21:39
  Trevor Gavin: the time and what we were handed down.
• 21:42
  Trevor Gavin: That...
• 21:42
  Trevor Gavin: That's exactly what I was trying to do.
• 21:45
  Trevor Gavin: But realizing where some of these things were actually coming from, which a lot
• 21:48
  Trevor Gavin: of it was anxiety and shame and fear,
• 21:52
  Trevor Gavin: that leads to really great things on the outside.
• 21:55
  Trevor Gavin: But, it is exhausting.
• 21:58
  Trevor Gavin: And I do find that in talking with with leaders now, that there
• 22:02
  Trevor Gavin: is a low grade weariness and exhaustion even when
• 22:06
  Trevor Gavin: things are going really well.
• 22:08
  Lisa Nichols: Well...
• 22:10
  Trevor Gavin: Not just when, you know, the p and l doesn't look great or EBITDA
• 22:14
  Trevor Gavin: isn't where it needs to be, but even when things are going really well.
• 22:17
  Trevor Gavin: And so what do we do at that point?
• 22:21
  Lisa Nichols: Because I think part of it probably goes back to a little fear.
• 22:25
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 22:25
  Lisa Nichols: What if it doesn't keep going well?
• 22:27
  Trevor Gavin: Correct.
• 22:28
  Lisa Nichols: Or what do we need to do to keep it going well?
• 22:30
  Lisa Nichols: Correct.
• 22:31
  Trevor Gavin: And
• 22:31
  Lisa Nichols: that's, you know, exhausting and just...
• 22:34
  Lisa Nichols: Boy.
• 22:34
  Lisa Nichols: I just know for myself, I can't do any of it on my own.
• 22:37
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 22:37
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 22:38
  Trevor Gavin: We're not in the outcomes business.
• 22:40
  Lisa Nichols: No.
• 22:41
  Lisa Nichols: And and when I've tried to do it on my own, that is when
• 22:45
  Lisa Nichols: I really get exhausted and burned out.
• 22:47
  Lisa Nichols: But, you know, what God calls us to is faithfulness.
• 22:50
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 22:50
  Trevor Gavin: That's that's right.
• 22:51
  Trevor Gavin: When
• 22:51
  Lisa Nichols: we're faithful, he will bring the harvest
• 22:56
  Lisa Nichols: and the fruit.
• 22:56
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 22:57
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 22:57
  Trevor Gavin: So And if it is true that his yoke is easy and his burden
• 23:01
  Trevor Gavin: is light Mhmm.
• 23:02
  Trevor Gavin: If that is true, then how are we to experience that?
• 23:06
  Trevor Gavin: And that's something I I think about quite regularly because I think there's
• 23:10
  Trevor Gavin: a number of yokes and burdens that I put on myself that nobody
• 23:15
  Trevor Gavin: else put on that.
• 23:16
  Trevor Gavin: Nobody else put put that on for me.
• 23:18
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 23:19
  Trevor Gavin: God didn't...
• 23:19
  Trevor Gavin: Sometimes my employer didn't.
• 23:21
  Trevor Gavin: These are things that I've chosen to put on me for a whole slew
• 23:25
  Trevor Gavin: of reasons.
• 23:26
  Trevor Gavin: And yet, we have a different invitation,
• 23:30
  Trevor Gavin: that is such a gift and and the most profound invitation, to be able
• 23:34
  Trevor Gavin: to live in.
• 23:34
  Trevor Gavin: And so I'm curious about that and what that looks like.
• 23:38
  Trevor Gavin: And I'd love to know for you, as I'm, you know, again, approaching kinda
• 23:42
  Trevor Gavin: second half of life and, you know, there's, a great quote that I heard
• 23:46
  Trevor Gavin: too about success doesn't have the same things to teach us in the second
• 23:49
  Trevor Gavin: half of life as it did in the first half.
• 23:51
  Trevor Gavin: And so, you know, I'm thinking about different pieces and,
• 23:56
  Trevor Gavin: of who I want to become in the second half of life.
• 23:58
  Trevor Gavin: So I'd I'd be curious to learn from you on, some things that you've
• 24:02
  Trevor Gavin: learned along the journey as well.
• 24:04
  Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness.
• 24:05
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I'm still learning.
• 24:06
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 24:07
  Lisa Nichols: I learn every day, and I struggle with some of these things that we're
• 24:10
  Lisa Nichols: talking about.
• 24:10
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 24:11
  Lisa Nichols: I can still fall into that trap.
• 24:12
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 24:14
  Lisa Nichols: But realizing that,
• 24:18
  Lisa Nichols: you know, for me personally...
• 24:19
  Lisa Nichols: And I know our listeners may be in a different place.
• 24:24
  Lisa Nichols: But for me personally, you know, my faith is central Yeah.
• 24:28
  Lisa Nichols: To everything.
• 24:29
  Lisa Nichols: And I have to...
• 24:31
  Lisa Nichols: You know, the word abide.
• 24:32
  Lisa Nichols: You know, John fifteen five is one of my favorite verses.
• 24:35
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 24:36
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 24:36
  Lisa Nichols: I am the vine.
• 24:37
  Lisa Nichols: You are the branches.
• 24:38
  Lisa Nichols: He who remains in me and I in you will bear much fruit.
• 24:42
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 24:42
  Lisa Nichols: And then it goes on to say, for apart from me, you can do
• 24:45
  Lisa Nichols: nothing.
• 24:46
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 24:46
  Lisa Nichols: And I know that there have been times where I've tried to do things
• 24:50
  Lisa Nichols: in my own strength apart from him.
• 24:52
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 24:53
  Lisa Nichols: But I'm not gonna achieve anything of any eternal significance
• 24:57
  Lisa Nichols: without him.
• 24:58
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 24:59
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 24:59
  Lisa Nichols: And so,
• 25:01
  Lisa Nichols: yeah, there's a lot there.
• 25:02
  Lisa Nichols: We probably have to do another podcast.
• 25:04
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 25:05
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 25:06
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 25:07
  Trevor Gavin: That's so good, though.
• 25:08
  Lisa Nichols: So let me ask you this.
• 25:10
  Lisa Nichols: And, yeah, we're...
• 25:12
  Lisa Nichols: I'm...
• 25:12
  Lisa Nichols: I've got a lot lot of questions here for you.
• 25:15
  Lisa Nichols: But what rhythms have you put in place personally, Trevor, to
• 25:19
  Lisa Nichols: keep you from going back into that place?
• 25:22
  Lisa Nichols: Because we can fall back into it.
• 25:24
  Lisa Nichols: Like I just said, I...
• 25:25
  Lisa Nichols: They won't fall back in there too.
• 25:26
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 25:27
  Lisa Nichols: But what rhythms have you put in place to keep yourself from going back
• 25:31
  Lisa Nichols: there?
• 25:31
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 25:32
  Trevor Gavin: I...
• 25:32
  Trevor Gavin: There's, there's three rhythms that I would now call my anchor rhythms.
• 25:37
  Trevor Gavin: And and I, I fail at these regularly.
• 25:41
  Trevor Gavin: But they are anchor rhythms for me.
• 25:44
  Trevor Gavin: Silence and solitude,
• 25:46
  Trevor Gavin: Sabbath once a week, and curiosity.
• 25:50
  Trevor Gavin: Silence and solitude for me, just taking a couple minutes in the morning
• 25:55
  Trevor Gavin: to be silent, to be quiet.
• 25:57
  Trevor Gavin: It is...
• 25:58
  Trevor Gavin: It makes my skin crawl at times because it seems unproductive.
• 26:03
  Lisa Nichols: Unproductive.
• 26:03
  Trevor Gavin: A waste of time.
• 26:05
  Trevor Gavin: And yet,
• 26:08
  Trevor Gavin: gives me the opportunity.
• 26:10
  Trevor Gavin: It allows my body a few moments to let some things come up that
• 26:14
  Trevor Gavin: I've been trying to push down, or rep...
• 26:17
  Trevor Gavin: Repress or not deal with.
• 26:19
  Trevor Gavin: And so in a very quiet and gentle way, it allows for some of
• 26:23
  Trevor Gavin: those, things to come up and for me to be able to, name
• 26:27
  Trevor Gavin: them honestly and be aware of them and become curious about them.
• 26:31
  Trevor Gavin: So that might be, you know, Monday morning knowing that a a really
• 26:35
  Trevor Gavin: busy week is is ahead of me.
• 26:37
  Trevor Gavin: There's some crucial meetings.
• 26:38
  Trevor Gavin: There's some deals that need to get closed or things like that.
• 26:41
  Trevor Gavin: And, I'm feeling anxiety about that,
• 26:45
  Trevor Gavin: in a way that is going to change how I show up.
• 26:49
  Trevor Gavin: And I have noticed for me, you know, leadership leaks.
• 26:53
  Trevor Gavin: Edwin Friedman has a great book called The Failure of Nerve, and he talks
• 26:56
  Trevor Gavin: about how leaders are the thermometers of the room.
• 27:00
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 27:00
  Trevor Gavin: And I can find that although you might not necessarily hear
• 27:04
  Trevor Gavin: it in my tone, in a raised voice, or anything, but my anxiety
• 27:08
  Trevor Gavin: will leak out in how I talk to someone and what I ask for
• 27:12
  Trevor Gavin: them when I ask for it to be done or something like that.
• 27:15
  Trevor Gavin: That then creates a temperature of anxiety in the room where everybody now feels
• 27:19
  Trevor Gavin: a little bit off.
• 27:20
  Trevor Gavin: We can't quite name it, but we all feel a little agitated.
• 27:25
  Trevor Gavin: And so now we're trying to force something that might not need
• 27:29
  Trevor Gavin: to be forced.
• 27:30
  Trevor Gavin: We're trying to push something through, maybe a bit premature.
• 27:33
  Trevor Gavin: We're trying to cut a corner to get a deadline hit.
• 27:36
  Trevor Gavin: And so it just gives me a chance to become a bit aware of
• 27:39
  Trevor Gavin: those things, try to name it and to be honest.
• 27:42
  Trevor Gavin: And then and then I I try to be honest with those that I
• 27:45
  Trevor Gavin: work with around, hey, this is...
• 27:47
  Trevor Gavin: I know we've got a big project that we're doing or there's a deadline
• 27:50
  Trevor Gavin: on this.
• 27:50
  Trevor Gavin: I I just want you to know I'm feeling a little anxious around it.
• 27:53
  Trevor Gavin: And so this is how I'm kind of showing up.
• 27:56
  Trevor Gavin: So silence and solitude, Sabbath, a twenty four hour period
• 28:01
  Trevor Gavin: where I choose to believe that God actually runs
• 28:05
  Trevor Gavin: the world, not me.
• 28:08
  Trevor Gavin: And as ridiculous as that sounds, it is a reminder to me
• 28:12
  Trevor Gavin: that, God is the one keeping things going.
• 28:15
  Trevor Gavin: And it's a reminder to me that, God enjoys me for
• 28:19
  Trevor Gavin: me and not for my production.
• 28:21
  Trevor Gavin: And that he is the one who has designed and hardwired rest and
• 28:25
  Trevor Gavin: joy and play into the universe, and that's a gift that I get
• 28:29
  Trevor Gavin: to receive.
• 28:31
  Trevor Gavin: And then the third one is curiosity.
• 28:33
  Trevor Gavin: A a mentor told me, that shame often leads
• 28:37
  Trevor Gavin: to binary thinking, and binary thinking and curiosity can't coexist.
• 28:42
  Trevor Gavin: And so when I Can
• 28:43
  Lisa Nichols: I explain that?
• 28:45
  Lisa Nichols: Binary thinking.
• 28:47
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 28:47
  Trevor Gavin: This...
• 28:47
  Trevor Gavin: I I mean, this illuminated so much for me personally.
• 28:51
  Trevor Gavin: When something, when something goes wrong, when it doesn't go the way that I
• 28:55
  Trevor Gavin: want it and want to, and maybe I didn't show up in a meeting
• 28:58
  Trevor Gavin: the way that I thought I should, I didn't produce something the way that
• 29:01
  Trevor Gavin: I thought that I should, My automatic response to that tends to be
• 29:05
  Trevor Gavin: shame, which is you failed.
• 29:07
  Trevor Gavin: You should have done better.
• 29:08
  Trevor Gavin: You could have done better.
• 29:09
  Trevor Gavin: Somebody else in your seat would have done better.
• 29:12
  Trevor Gavin: And so rather than be curious about that, I just believe that.
• 29:16
  Trevor Gavin: So that's the binary thinking, which leads to it was a failure or a
• 29:20
  Trevor Gavin: success, which leads to shame.
• 29:22
  Trevor Gavin: And so when I get into a shame cycle, the only...
• 29:25
  Trevor Gavin: For so long, the only way I've known how to get out of that
• 29:28
  Trevor Gavin: is to work my way out of it and to achievement
• 29:33
  Trevor Gavin: and to have people tell me that I did a good job and that
• 29:36
  Trevor Gavin: will get me out of it rather than going,
• 29:40
  Trevor Gavin: I I I wanna be curious about how that meeting went.
• 29:43
  Trevor Gavin: And is it true that it didn't go as well as I thought it
• 29:46
  Trevor Gavin: did?
• 29:47
  Trevor Gavin: Did someone say something, about that to me?
• 29:50
  Trevor Gavin: Is this something that I'm projecting onto the meeting because I didn't get the
• 29:54
  Trevor Gavin: affirmation that I thought I did?
• 29:57
  Trevor Gavin: And what can I learn about that?
• 29:59
  Trevor Gavin: And maybe it didn't go as bad as I thought it did.
• 30:02
  Trevor Gavin: And if that's true, then...
• 30:03
  Trevor Gavin: Okay.
• 30:04
  Trevor Gavin: Then what what is that actually telling me about myself and about the
• 30:08
  Trevor Gavin: people that I'm leading or serving or meeting with?
• 30:11
  Trevor Gavin: And so by just taking a moment to go, I just wanna get...
• 30:14
  Trevor Gavin: I wanna be compassionately curious about that.
• 30:18
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 30:19
  Trevor Gavin: And and go That's
• 30:19
  Lisa Nichols: so good.
• 30:20
  Lisa Nichols: That is so good.
• 30:21
  Trevor Gavin: What does it...
• 30:21
  Trevor Gavin: What does that mean?
• 30:22
  Trevor Gavin: And then what do I need to learn from that?
• 30:24
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 30:25
  Lisa Nichols: That is so good.
• 30:26
  Lisa Nichols: I love it.
• 30:26
  Lisa Nichols: I love it.
• 30:27
  Lisa Nichols: I love it.
• 30:27
  Lisa Nichols: I'm gonna remember those three.
• 30:29
  Lisa Nichols: Alright.
• 30:30
  Lisa Nichols: I've got a lot more questions for you, Trevor, but we do need to
• 30:33
  Lisa Nichols: take a quick break.
• 30:33
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 30:34
  Lisa Nichols: We'll be right back with Trevor Gavin on the Something Extra podcast.
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• 31:02
  AD: Go to technology partners dot net slash solutions and see what's possible.
• 31:07
  Lisa Nichols: Welcome back, everyone, to the something extra podcast with Trevor Gavin.
• 31:12
  Lisa Nichols: So, Trevor, oh my goodness.
• 31:14
  Lisa Nichols: This has been so refreshing to my soul just to talk to you,
• 31:19
  Lisa Nichols: and I just I...
• 31:20
  Lisa Nichols: It's just...
• 31:20
  Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much.
• 31:21
  Lisa Nichols: Thank you for just being vulnerable and walking us through your process
• 31:25
  Lisa Nichols: because I really do believe, I know it's helping me.
• 31:28
  Lisa Nichols: So thank you so much for that.
• 31:30
  Lisa Nichols: But let's talk about this.
• 31:33
  Lisa Nichols: You know, I wanna talk a little bit about BARNA.
• 31:35
  Lisa Nichols: You've done a lot of amazing things in your career, but right now, you're
• 31:39
  Lisa Nichols: the head of growth at BARNA.
• 31:40
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 31:41
  Lisa Nichols: And when you and I initially spoke, I told you that I led kids
• 31:45
  Lisa Nichols: in...
• 31:45
  Lisa Nichols: Kids worship for a number of years, and I was constantly looking...
• 31:49
  Lisa Nichols: I still look at Barna research, but there may be...
• 31:52
  Lisa Nichols: Barna's headquartered in Dallas Yes.
• 31:54
  Lisa Nichols: Texas.
• 31:56
  Lisa Nichols: But there may be listeners out there that's like, who is Barna?
• 31:59
  Lisa Nichols: What is Barna?
• 32:00
  Lisa Nichols: Can you, like, just give us a little snippet of who Barna is?
• 32:03
  Lisa Nichols: And I've got lots of questions.
• 32:05
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 32:05
  Trevor Gavin: So Barna's been around for forty one years now, and we
• 32:09
  Trevor Gavin: exist to help interpret the times to be able to show people,
• 32:14
  Trevor Gavin: and help people know what to do with that.
• 32:16
  Trevor Gavin: And so we do that primarily as a research firm as it relates to,
• 32:21
  Trevor Gavin: faith, to Christianity, to trends that we're seeing.
• 32:24
  Trevor Gavin: So as you mentioned earlier around AI, that is, AI is
• 32:28
  Trevor Gavin: is one of the areas that we're studying right now because it has so
• 32:32
  Trevor Gavin: many implications as it relates to work,
• 32:36
  Trevor Gavin: relationships, all all of it.
• 32:38
  Trevor Gavin: So we primarily do, research initiatives on these very large
• 32:42
  Trevor Gavin: scale projects to be able to help organizations, nonprofits,
• 32:46
  Trevor Gavin: churches, etcetera, understand what's going on and then to be able to have
• 32:50
  Trevor Gavin: the wisdom, most importantly, to know what we should be able to...
• 32:54
  Trevor Gavin: What we should do about those things.
• 32:56
  Trevor Gavin: And so we have a lot of research.
• 32:58
  Trevor Gavin: We have syndicated research that we have done.
• 33:00
  Trevor Gavin: We have a book publishing that we do.
• 33:02
  Trevor Gavin: We have consulting to be able to come alongside organizations and help them
• 33:06
  Trevor Gavin: navigate the complexity and the day and time we live in to be able
• 33:09
  Trevor Gavin: to help them think through mission critical things and so they can serve their,
• 33:14
  Trevor Gavin: their audience more effectively.
• 33:16
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 33:17
  Lisa Nichols: If our listeners wanna learn more, where would they go?
• 33:20
  Lisa Nichols: What's the URL?
• 33:21
  Trevor Gavin: Super easy super easy.
• 33:22
  Trevor Gavin: They go to barna dot com.
• 33:24
  Trevor Gavin: We are always posting new editorials based on the research that we're doing.
• 33:29
  Trevor Gavin: So a lot on AI right now, especially as people, you know, are going
• 33:33
  Trevor Gavin: to AI for, really therapists, companionship,
• 33:38
  Trevor Gavin: existential questions, all of those things.
• 33:40
  Trevor Gavin: So we have some really profound research that's coming out on that, but they
• 33:43
  Trevor Gavin: can go to barna dot com to learn more about all of that.
• 33:46
  Lisa Nichols: Very good.
• 33:47
  Lisa Nichols: Very good.
• 33:48
  Lisa Nichols: Well, I know that you guys have done a lot of research on this,
• 33:52
  Lisa Nichols: Trevor, and I wanna talk about it.
• 33:53
  Lisa Nichols: What separates the leaders who finish well from the...
• 33:56
  Lisa Nichols: Those who quietly don't finish well?
• 34:00
  Lisa Nichols: And what is that research telling us?
• 34:02
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 34:03
  Trevor Gavin: It's it's no surprise, especially in the Christian community.
• 34:06
  Trevor Gavin: It feels like we see a headline every week of a
• 34:10
  Trevor Gavin: leader that, is not finishing well, through a multitude
• 34:15
  Trevor Gavin: of reasons.
• 34:16
  Trevor Gavin: And so one of the things we're learning right now is about the pressure
• 34:19
  Trevor Gavin: that leaders are facing and what they're doing to try
• 34:24
  Trevor Gavin: to navigate that pressure.
• 34:26
  Trevor Gavin: We do know that the stats show that, leaders have
• 34:30
  Trevor Gavin: a challenge as it relates to relationships,
• 34:33
  Trevor Gavin: having a couple people in their life that they can be honest
• 34:38
  Trevor Gavin: and transparent with about their struggles.
• 34:42
  Trevor Gavin: Isolation tends to be one of the things that really hurts and cripples
• 34:46
  Trevor Gavin: leaders.
• 34:46
  Trevor Gavin: I think in faith, outside of faith, I believe we are meant
• 34:50
  Trevor Gavin: for relationship.
• 34:52
  Trevor Gavin: And so being isolated is one of those detrimental
• 34:56
  Trevor Gavin: parts to our leadership as well as our humanity.
• 34:59
  Trevor Gavin: Some of the other things we're learning around, like, even hobbies,
• 35:03
  Trevor Gavin: leaders who have hobbies tend to, be a bit healthier,
• 35:08
  Trevor Gavin: because they have outlets emotionally, physically.
• 35:11
  Trevor Gavin: They have other places for joy and for happiness, things like that.
• 35:15
  Trevor Gavin: So relationships,
• 35:17
  Trevor Gavin: hobbies, and then emotional mental health, kind of, you know, some of the things
• 35:20
  Trevor Gavin: we talked about.
• 35:22
  Trevor Gavin: The profound pressure that people are feeling leaders inside of
• 35:26
  Trevor Gavin: the Christian faith, outside of it, the profound pressures that people are feeling
• 35:30
  Trevor Gavin: because how thing...
• 35:32
  Trevor Gavin: How fast things are changing, how dynamic it is, and how disorienting
• 35:37
  Trevor Gavin: the economy feels on a global stage on...
• 35:40
  Trevor Gavin: In our own lives, etcetera.
• 35:42
  Trevor Gavin: And those pressures, are mounting for leaders, and they don't
• 35:46
  Trevor Gavin: appear to be going anywhere.
• 35:48
  Trevor Gavin: And yet Right.
• 35:48
  Trevor Gavin: We...
• 35:49
  Trevor Gavin: As we look at the data and we look at what people are doing,
• 35:52
  Trevor Gavin: there are ways to be able to navigate it that we can thrive.
• 35:55
  Trevor Gavin: And so we are start...
• 35:57
  Trevor Gavin: We are hoping through longitudinal studies, studies that happen recurring,
• 36:01
  Trevor Gavin: that we can actually see some shifts in leaders' health and their
• 36:05
  Trevor Gavin: longevity in the hopes that we can make the changes necessary to be able
• 36:09
  Trevor Gavin: to finish well.
• 36:11
  Trevor Gavin: Mhmm.
• 36:12
  Lisa Nichols: Well...
• 36:12
  Lisa Nichols: And I think, you know, as you're talking about that, Trevor, I'm thinking it's
• 36:15
  Lisa Nichols: it's people like you really being vulnerable with your
• 36:20
  Lisa Nichols: story.
• 36:20
  Lisa Nichols: It's like if you keep going down this path where you just work harder
• 36:24
  Lisa Nichols: and harder and you don't have...
• 36:25
  Lisa Nichols: You don't honor the Sabbath, have that twenty four hour period
• 36:29
  Lisa Nichols: where, you know, you don't feel like you have to accomplish.
• 36:32
  Lisa Nichols: You can just be.
• 36:33
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 36:34
  Lisa Nichols: You know, I think it's...
• 36:36
  Lisa Nichols: Because I think sometimes there's not a self awareness that it's even
• 36:40
  Lisa Nichols: happening, right, until it's too late.
• 36:43
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 36:43
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 36:44
  Lisa Nichols: So I think that's a really important part of it is having
• 36:48
  Lisa Nichols: people tell their stories
• 36:49
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 36:50
  Lisa Nichols: That I was going this way and, you know, I was getting ready to
• 36:53
  Lisa Nichols: crash, or maybe I did crash.
• 36:55
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 36:56
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 36:56
  Lisa Nichols: So
• 36:57
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 36:59
  Lisa Nichols: You know, I mean...
• 37:00
  Lisa Nichols: And you kinda already talked about this a little bit, but what are some
• 37:03
  Lisa Nichols: of those warning signs, you know, that a leader can look for
• 37:07
  Lisa Nichols: to go, you know, I I think I'm not not heading in the right
• 37:11
  Lisa Nichols: direction.
• 37:11
  Lisa Nichols: I think my ladder may be up against the wrong wall here.
• 37:15
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 37:15
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 37:16
  Trevor Gavin: The...
• 37:16
  Trevor Gavin: One of, one of my mentors said, you should look at your emotions
• 37:20
  Trevor Gavin: the same way you look at the dashboard in your car.
• 37:23
  Trevor Gavin: And so, you know, we've all had the experience of the check, check oil
• 37:27
  Trevor Gavin: light come on.
• 37:29
  Trevor Gavin: And Yes.
• 37:29
  Trevor Gavin: We see that and we go, no, I'm good.
• 37:31
  Trevor Gavin: I've got a I've got a couple more...
• 37:33
  Trevor Gavin: A hundred more miles before I need to check that.
• 37:35
  Trevor Gavin: I'm not gonna worry about it.
• 37:36
  Trevor Gavin: And then you see the low tire pressure come on, and you go, that's
• 37:39
  Trevor Gavin: only two PSIs below what it needs to be.
• 37:42
  Trevor Gavin: I'll I'll be fine.
• 37:44
  Trevor Gavin: And that...
• 37:44
  Trevor Gavin: While it's at that stage, you go, oh, this is a quick fix.
• 37:47
  Trevor Gavin: I can go to the gas station, put more air in the tire.
• 37:50
  Trevor Gavin: I'm going to, get an oil change, and it's fifty bucks.
• 37:53
  Trevor Gavin: No no problem.
• 37:55
  Trevor Gavin: What happens when we, don't listen to those check engine lights
• 37:59
  Trevor Gavin: and things like that over time, they get worse and they
• 38:03
  Trevor Gavin: can become catastrophic.
• 38:05
  Trevor Gavin: And so when when we're thinking about that, you know, our body is
• 38:10
  Trevor Gavin: a major profit, not not a minor profit.
• 38:13
  Trevor Gavin: And so that can come through a number of different ways, which tightness
• 38:17
  Trevor Gavin: in our chest, tight shoulders, never being able to
• 38:21
  Trevor Gavin: feel like we can relax, never feel like we can turn it off.
• 38:27
  Trevor Gavin: The way we think about the future, starts to impact that if
• 38:31
  Trevor Gavin: we're, beginning to think more negatively, our own motivations
• 38:35
  Trevor Gavin: start to change, for some it's lethargy,
• 38:40
  Trevor Gavin: the lack of motivation to be able to get up, to be able to
• 38:42
  Trevor Gavin: do the things that we were doing.
• 38:44
  Trevor Gavin: For me, the big one that showed itself was
• 38:48
  Trevor Gavin: my inability to be present with the person that was in front of me.
• 38:53
  Trevor Gavin: So, you know, Lisa, you and I could be having this conversation, but I'm
• 38:57
  Trevor Gavin: thinking about the meeting that I have after this.
• 38:59
  Trevor Gavin: I'm thinking about the project that is due.
• 39:02
  Trevor Gavin: I'm thinking about all of these things.
• 39:03
  Trevor Gavin: And while we're able to have a conversation, I'm not present
• 39:07
  Trevor Gavin: at all.
• 39:09
  Trevor Gavin: I could be checking my phone, looking at an email, waiting for it.
• 39:13
  Trevor Gavin: And that was a big indicator for me that that something's a bit off
• 39:17
  Trevor Gavin: is because I don't feel like I can be present with the people in
• 39:19
  Trevor Gavin: front of me.
• 39:20
  Trevor Gavin: And, of course, where that shows up most was with my kids.
• 39:24
  Trevor Gavin: And so when I start hearing from my kids, dad, I...
• 39:28
  Trevor Gavin: You're on your phone too much.
• 39:31
  Trevor Gavin: That was an indicator for me.
• 39:34
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 39:34
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 39:35
  Lisa Nichols: And Yeah.
• 39:35
  Trevor Gavin: I want to justify that behavior because, it
• 39:40
  Trevor Gavin: was an important email.
• 39:41
  Trevor Gavin: It was an important Slack.
• 39:42
  Trevor Gavin: I'm waiting for a signature on something.
• 39:45
  Trevor Gavin: And, and and that has its place and things like that.
• 39:48
  Trevor Gavin: But there was a repeated behavior and pattern, where I would
• 39:52
  Trevor Gavin: try to escape.
• 39:54
  Trevor Gavin: And I would love to use my phone for that.
• 39:56
  Trevor Gavin: I would love to use other things, and my kids my kids notice it.
• 40:00
  Lisa Nichols: They noticed it.
• 40:01
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 40:01
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 40:02
  Lisa Nichols: And they'll call me out.
• 40:02
  Lisa Nichols: And my kids have called me out on things.
• 40:04
  Lisa Nichols: I remember one time, few years ago,
• 40:09
  Lisa Nichols: you know, because I'm sure you you get this.
• 40:12
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, I could be doing something different every night of the week if
• 40:15
  Lisa Nichols: I wanted to be.
• 40:16
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 40:16
  Lisa Nichols: There's something to go to.
• 40:18
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 40:18
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 40:18
  Lisa Nichols: And there'd been three nights in a row.
• 40:21
  Lisa Nichols: You know, I had a wake, you know, for a friend that had lost
• 40:23
  Lisa Nichols: her dad.
• 40:24
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, three things in a row.
• 40:26
  Lisa Nichols: And our grandson Sawyer piped up and said, Yaya, I
• 40:30
  Lisa Nichols: wanted to do art last night
• 40:32
  Trevor Gavin: Wow.
• 40:32
  Lisa Nichols: And you weren't here.
• 40:34
  Lisa Nichols: And I was like, whoo.
• 40:36
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 40:37
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, leave it to your children out of the mouth of babes.
• 40:40
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 40:40
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 40:41
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 40:42
  Lisa Nichols: And I think God uses them, you know, really does sometimes get
• 40:46
  Lisa Nichols: us back on track.
• 40:47
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 40:47
  Trevor Gavin: Right?
• 40:48
  Trevor Gavin: So loudly.
• 40:48
  Trevor Gavin: So loudly.
• 40:49
  Trevor Gavin: And that's Yes.
• 40:50
  Trevor Gavin: One of the other things, Donald Miller talks about the difference between resume
• 40:54
  Trevor Gavin: virtues and eulogy virtues.
• 40:57
  Trevor Gavin: And I found that to be so profoundly convicting
• 41:01
  Trevor Gavin: and inspiring for me, which is to say at at our eulogy,
• 41:05
  Trevor Gavin: the last thing that I hope anyone mentions is an acquisition that we
• 41:09
  Trevor Gavin: had was, a seven figure eight figure deal
• 41:13
  Trevor Gavin: that closed or anything like that.
• 41:16
  Trevor Gavin: But I'm hopeful that it'll be, that I got to do art.
• 41:21
  Trevor Gavin: That, you know, that we did art together, that we played some games
• 41:25
  Trevor Gavin: together, and that, I remember, you know, my hope is that I,
• 41:30
  Trevor Gavin: is that I remembered for someone who was present, fully present.
• 41:34
  Trevor Gavin: And that I think about Jesus there.
• 41:35
  Trevor Gavin: And again, for for those that, that faith isn't central.
• 41:39
  Trevor Gavin: But I...
• 41:40
  Trevor Gavin: When I think about Jesus, his mission effectively was to get
• 41:44
  Trevor Gavin: the church up off the ground, save the world.
• 41:47
  Trevor Gavin: And yet when you see him in the New Testament, the way he speaks
• 41:51
  Trevor Gavin: to people of zero social class on up to the
• 41:55
  Trevor Gavin: most people that we would be impressed with, it would appear that he has
• 41:59
  Trevor Gavin: nothing else to do in his day other than to be present with the
• 42:02
  Trevor Gavin: person right in front of him.
• 42:05
  Trevor Gavin: And I find that to be so compelling and convicting,
• 42:10
  Trevor Gavin: because often my mind is going a hundred different directions.
• 42:15
  Lisa Nichols: I hear you.
• 42:16
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 42:16
  Lisa Nichols: I love that.
• 42:17
  Lisa Nichols: I'm glad I'm glad that you brought that up because, I mean, I always
• 42:20
  Lisa Nichols: said he was interruptible.
• 42:22
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 42:22
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 42:22
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 42:23
  Lisa Nichols: You know, pleasantly interruptible.
• 42:25
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 42:26
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 42:26
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 42:27
  Lisa Nichols: Because...
• 42:27
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, yeah.
• 42:29
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 42:29
  Lisa Nichols: Jarrah's daughter, he's on his way.
• 42:32
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 42:32
  Lisa Nichols: And the woman with the issue of blood comes and
• 42:35
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 42:35
  Lisa Nichols: It's not like...
• 42:36
  Lisa Nichols: He's like, no.
• 42:37
  Lisa Nichols: You know, don't bother me.
• 42:38
  Lisa Nichols: I got it.
• 42:39
  Lisa Nichols: I got a mission.
• 42:40
  Lisa Nichols: I've got an agenda.
• 42:41
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 42:42
  Lisa Nichols: I just love that.
• 42:43
  Lisa Nichols: If we could just be more like that.
• 42:45
  Lisa Nichols: If we could just be more like that.
• 42:48
  Lisa Nichols: Oh goodness.
• 42:49
  Lisa Nichols: Let me see.
• 42:52
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 42:52
  Lisa Nichols: What does...
• 42:53
  Lisa Nichols: Okay.
• 42:53
  Lisa Nichols: So we often measure leadership though, by the world standards,
• 42:58
  Lisa Nichols: EBITDA Yes.
• 42:59
  Lisa Nichols: Revenue,
• 43:01
  Lisa Nichols: you know, followers Yes.
• 43:02
  Lisa Nichols: Organizational impact in the world.
• 43:05
  Lisa Nichols: You know?
• 43:05
  Lisa Nichols: But what does Barna's research suggest that we should be measuring?
• 43:10
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 43:10
  Trevor Gavin: We're, we are looking at a lot of different research around this, in particular,
• 43:15
  Trevor Gavin: in, in the church space as well.
• 43:18
  Trevor Gavin: And so we're having early conversations about what the future church might
• 43:22
  Trevor Gavin: look like.
• 43:23
  Trevor Gavin: And I would say the one that is probably most relevant is around AI.
• 43:27
  Trevor Gavin: And I think one of the gifts of the church that the church can
• 43:32
  Trevor Gavin: be in the world
• 43:34
  Trevor Gavin: is the best place for human connection on the planet.
• 43:38
  Trevor Gavin: So as things go more artificial, and it is our belief that we were
• 43:42
  Trevor Gavin: created, hardwired, for relationship, that
• 43:46
  Trevor Gavin: that's going to be an area that has desperate need and implications
• 43:51
  Trevor Gavin: for.
• 43:52
  Trevor Gavin: And so as we think about those things, for the future church, etcetera,
• 43:57
  Trevor Gavin: the place of human connection that is irreplaceable through
• 44:01
  Trevor Gavin: anything artificial needs to become more central.
• 44:05
  Trevor Gavin: So we are big believers in trying to leverage the gift that
• 44:09
  Trevor Gavin: AI helps us with, but not at the extent or the
• 44:13
  Trevor Gavin: expense of human capital and human relationships for ultimately
• 44:17
  Trevor Gavin: the flourishing of our society.
• 44:20
  Lisa Nichols: Mhmm.
• 44:21
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, that's so good.
• 44:23
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 44:24
  Lisa Nichols: Oh my goodness.
• 44:25
  Lisa Nichols: I probably had three more pages here, but we're running out of time, Trevor.
• 44:29
  Lisa Nichols: We needed to, we needed to to make this a longer podcast.
• 44:34
  Lisa Nichols: Let me let me, go here.
• 44:38
  Lisa Nichols: Okay.
• 44:38
  Lisa Nichols: I told you, not in a weird way, but I've stalked you.
• 44:41
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 44:42
  Lisa Nichols: Okay?
• 44:42
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 44:42
  Trevor Gavin: Not in a weird way.
• 44:43
  Lisa Nichols: Do you do you do jiu jitsu and you go, yes.
• 44:46
  Lisa Nichols: I do.
• 44:47
  Lisa Nichols: I love I love that.
• 44:48
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 44:49
  Lisa Nichols: How how how does that show up for you?
• 44:51
  Lisa Nichols: I mean, it's great conditioning.
• 44:52
  Lisa Nichols: Right?
• 44:53
  Trevor Gavin: It is, it is great con...
• 44:55
  Trevor Gavin: Conditioning.
• 44:56
  Trevor Gavin: It is the most, humbling thing I've ever done in my life,
• 45:01
  Trevor Gavin: repeatedly.
• 45:03
  Trevor Gavin: Yep.
• 45:03
  Trevor Gavin: But this, it is a place for me.
• 45:06
  Trevor Gavin: Again, it demands it demands a hundred percent presence,
• 45:11
  Trevor Gavin: because if I'm thinking about anything else, I will end up in a rear
• 45:14
  Trevor Gavin: naked choke or an armbar.
• 45:16
  Trevor Gavin: So it demands me to be present.
• 45:18
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 45:19
  Trevor Gavin: It is a fascinating, art which, you know,
• 45:24
  Trevor Gavin: involves your entire body.
• 45:26
  Trevor Gavin: And so, for example, our professor can show us an
• 45:30
  Trevor Gavin: armbar, and he can show us the three steps to be able to do
• 45:34
  Trevor Gavin: that.
• 45:35
  Trevor Gavin: And then what you'll do is you'll go practice that with your partner in
• 45:38
  Trevor Gavin: a static environment where you just mechanically do step one, step two,
• 45:43
  Trevor Gavin: step three, and we will drill that multiple times.
• 45:46
  Trevor Gavin: And then by the end of it, you go, or I go, oh, I
• 45:48
  Trevor Gavin: think I got an arm bar.
• 45:50
  Trevor Gavin: And then we'll switch into...
• 45:52
  Trevor Gavin: Then resistance will come in.
• 45:54
  Trevor Gavin: So instead of just doing it statically with no resistance, they'll put resistance
• 45:58
  Trevor Gavin: in.
• 45:58
  Trevor Gavin: And then I go, oh, I'm actually not as good as I thought I
• 46:02
  Trevor Gavin: was when there was no resistance.
• 46:04
  Trevor Gavin: And then that'll move into what is called a live environment where we're actually
• 46:08
  Trevor Gavin: rolling.
• 46:08
  Trevor Gavin: And then I can do it at all.
• 46:11
  Trevor Gavin: And if I try to, it looks incredibly clunky, and then I typically get
• 46:14
  Trevor Gavin: submitted by something else.
• 46:16
  Trevor Gavin: And, that practice of learning again how to
• 46:20
  Trevor Gavin: become the type of person who can see an armbar and do an armbar,
• 46:25
  Trevor Gavin: takes so much time and repetition,
• 46:29
  Trevor Gavin: over and over again to be able to do that has been a real
• 46:33
  Trevor Gavin: leadership lesson for me.
• 46:35
  Trevor Gavin: The other leadership lesson for me that has really helped is
• 46:39
  Trevor Gavin: there is such a small population of the world that does jujitsu that even
• 46:43
  Trevor Gavin: tries it for
• 46:44
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 46:44
  Trevor Gavin: Very obvious reasons.
• 46:46
  Trevor Gavin: There's an even smaller population of people that continue to do it
• 46:50
  Trevor Gavin: because it is painful.
• 46:51
  Trevor Gavin: It is humbling, but it is one of the greatest things I've ever done.
• 46:55
  Trevor Gavin: And so there is a culture in jujitsu that just celebrates you showing up
• 46:59
  Trevor Gavin: on the mat again.
• 47:02
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, I love that.
• 47:03
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 47:03
  Lisa Nichols: Celebrate the fact that you showed up.
• 47:05
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 47:06
  Lisa Nichols: I love that.
• 47:06
  Trevor Gavin: It's hard enough to come in the first time.
• 47:08
  Trevor Gavin: Yeah.
• 47:08
  Trevor Gavin: It's even harder to come in the second time after you've been beaten up.
• 47:12
  Lisa Nichols: Beaten up.
• 47:13
  Trevor Gavin: And so there is just a culture of celebrate.
• 47:16
  Trevor Gavin: You showed up again.
• 47:18
  Trevor Gavin: And if you keep showing up, then you're gonna see improvement in these
• 47:22
  Trevor Gavin: areas, and you will get better and all of that.
• 47:25
  Trevor Gavin: But I just...
• 47:25
  Trevor Gavin: I love the thought of in a world, especially leadership,
• 47:30
  Trevor Gavin: we have personal lives, we have our work lives, we have what's going on
• 47:34
  Trevor Gavin: in the economy and the world, all these different things.
• 47:37
  Trevor Gavin: And there's just times where I just wanna celebrate people, you showed up again.
• 47:42
  Trevor Gavin: And let's let's just name name that and honor that because it's
• 47:46
  Trevor Gavin: not always easy to do that.
• 47:47
  Trevor Gavin: And that's been that's been a profound lesson for me on...
• 47:51
  Trevor Gavin: Especially days where I wake up in the morning, and I don't wanna get
• 47:55
  Trevor Gavin: out of bed.
• 47:56
  Trevor Gavin: And I think, okay.
• 47:57
  Trevor Gavin: Let me just try and show up one more day Show up.
• 48:00
  Trevor Gavin: And get on the mat again.
• 48:02
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 48:03
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 48:03
  Lisa Nichols: I'm gonna ruminate on that.
• 48:05
  Lisa Nichols: I really love that.
• 48:08
  Lisa Nichols: When we finish, I'm gonna tell you a funny story about our son, Jordan,
• 48:11
  Lisa Nichols: that did the...
• 48:12
  Lisa Nichols: I'll tell you a funny story.
• 48:14
  Lisa Nichols: But, again, stalking you.
• 48:16
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 48:18
  Lisa Nichols: I know that you were a huge reader.
• 48:20
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 48:20
  Lisa Nichols: And so I wanna go through just a few of these really quick, Trevor,
• 48:24
  Lisa Nichols: for our for our listeners, and then I wanna talk about something extra.
• 48:27
  Trevor Gavin: Great.
• 48:28
  Lisa Nichols: So Cal Newport.
• 48:30
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 48:30
  Lisa Nichols: You go, anything written by Cal Newport, I'm going to read it.
• 48:35
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 48:35
  Lisa Nichols: So, I have I have ordered a few
• 48:40
  Lisa Nichols: of the books that you recommended.
• 48:42
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 48:43
  Lisa Nichols: I've read Deep Work.
• 48:44
  Lisa Nichols: Great book.
• 48:46
  Lisa Nichols: Turn the Ship Around.
• 48:47
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 48:48
  Lisa Nichols: Great.
• 48:48
  Lisa Nichols: It's a
• 48:48
  Trevor Gavin: great leadership book.
• 48:50
  Lisa Nichols: Ego is the enemy.
• 48:52
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 48:52
  Lisa Nichols: Oh, I have not ordered that one, but that one sounds really good.
• 48:56
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 48:57
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 48:58
  Trevor Gavin: Those those books have been so influential for me.
• 49:01
  Trevor Gavin: And Cal Newport in particular, you know, he he contra...
• 49:05
  Trevor Gavin: In deep work, he contrasts deep work versus shallow work.
• 49:09
  Trevor Gavin: And shallow work is, is work that
• 49:13
  Trevor Gavin: we basically kinda steal, and we just iterate on a little bit.
• 49:17
  Trevor Gavin: But the people that we think about through history that have
• 49:21
  Trevor Gavin: made significant changes and advances, there's a way in
• 49:25
  Trevor Gavin: which they work that was very different.
• 49:28
  Trevor Gavin: And he talks about distractibility.
• 49:29
  Trevor Gavin: And, you know, again, in this age where I've got an iPhone, you have
• 49:33
  Trevor Gavin: a watch, you have your iPad or whatever it is, you're answering
• 49:37
  Trevor Gavin: text, you're answering Slack, you're answering email.
• 49:40
  Trevor Gavin: And it's...
• 49:40
  Trevor Gavin: For me, it's all done in the name of efficiency.
• 49:43
  Trevor Gavin: And so I think I'm winning because I'm efficient.
• 49:46
  Trevor Gavin: I'm the fastest to respond or whatever the case may be.
• 49:49
  Trevor Gavin: But I'm not actually in the business of, just efficiency.
• 49:53
  Trevor Gavin: I'm in the, business of contribution.
• 49:56
  Trevor Gavin: And I wanna make a contribution that is going to have a meaningful impact
• 50:00
  Trevor Gavin: in someone's life, whether that's a piece of software, whether that's in our context,
• 50:04
  Trevor Gavin: research to be able to help people make strategic decisions, whatever that is.
• 50:09
  Trevor Gavin: I want to make a difference and a contribution that is impactful.
• 50:13
  Trevor Gavin: And to be able to do that, especially in the world that we live
• 50:16
  Trevor Gavin: in, and I grew up just kinda pre digital memory, but I grew up
• 50:20
  Trevor Gavin: in a world filled with technology, and my kids even more so are natives
• 50:24
  Trevor Gavin: to all of this.
• 50:25
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 50:25
  Lisa Nichols: Yes.
• 50:26
  Trevor Gavin: I have to be so intentional to carve out time,
• 50:31
  Trevor Gavin: to focus and to have deep work.
• 50:34
  Trevor Gavin: And the problem is I get into that, and my mind immediately goes into
• 50:38
  Trevor Gavin: a thousand directions.
• 50:39
  Trevor Gavin: I have to empty the dishwasher.
• 50:41
  Trevor Gavin: I have to vacuum.
• 50:41
  Trevor Gavin: I have to pick the kids up.
• 50:43
  Trevor Gavin: There's four emails waiting for me.
• 50:44
  Trevor Gavin: And so I don't get into deep work immediately and go, great.
• 50:47
  Trevor Gavin: I'm so focused.
• 50:49
  Trevor Gavin: I'm gonna go deep on what I want to and try to figure out.
• 50:52
  Trevor Gavin: I have to sort through a million different things that are going through my
• 50:56
  Trevor Gavin: head to even get to the point where I can I can settle in?
• 50:59
  Trevor Gavin: And so his work on that on deep work and then, his book
• 51:03
  Trevor Gavin: slow productivity,
• 51:05
  Trevor Gavin: was such a game changer, obsess over quality, work at a natural
• 51:09
  Trevor Gavin: pace, pick one thing.
• 51:11
  Trevor Gavin: I mean, these are...
• 51:12
  Trevor Gavin: I think these are differentiators in our economy today of trying
• 51:16
  Trevor Gavin: to go at speed and scale.
• 51:18
  Trevor Gavin: If we can do deep meaningful work that, fits within our
• 51:22
  Trevor Gavin: humanity, that doesn't compromise the things that are most important to
• 51:26
  Trevor Gavin: us, I think we'll be able to contribute in a deeply impactful way.
• 51:30
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 51:31
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 51:32
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 51:32
  Lisa Nichols: I ordered that one.
• 51:33
  Lisa Nichols: Slow productivity.
• 51:35
  Lisa Nichols: It should be here today.
• 51:36
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 51:36
  Lisa Nichols: I'm looking forward to it.
• 51:38
  Lisa Nichols: Maybe you'll add something extra, the something extra book to your
• 51:41
  Trevor Gavin: I absolutely will.
• 51:43
  Trevor Gavin: I absolutely will.
• 51:44
  Lisa Nichols: Alright.
• 51:45
  Lisa Nichols: So that's a perfect segue.
• 51:47
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 51:47
  Lisa Nichols: What do you believe, Trevor?
• 51:48
  Lisa Nichols: Is this something extra that every leader needs?
• 51:51
  Trevor Gavin: This was tough because I've listened to so much of your podcast, and I've
• 51:55
  Trevor Gavin: heard people say humility,
• 51:58
  Trevor Gavin: curiosity, a number of things.
• 52:00
  Trevor Gavin: And I go, yes.
• 52:00
  Trevor Gavin: That...
• 52:01
  Trevor Gavin: Those are all those things.
• 52:02
  Trevor Gavin: And as I was thinking about it today, I think the one that I
• 52:06
  Trevor Gavin: would would suggest as something extra would be healing.
• 52:12
  Trevor Gavin: And and maybe specifically inner healing.
• 52:16
  Trevor Gavin: I think regardless of if faith plays an important role in your life or
• 52:19
  Trevor Gavin: doesn't, the need for doing the inner work
• 52:24
  Trevor Gavin: and going on the inner journey,
• 52:26
  Trevor Gavin: separates us, from a lot and will help
• 52:30
  Trevor Gavin: us to show up holistically in all the areas of life
• 52:35
  Trevor Gavin: that demand us to do so in a healthy way that is going to
• 52:39
  Trevor Gavin: impact people for good.
• 52:41
  Lisa Nichols: That's so good.
• 52:43
  Lisa Nichols: There...
• 52:43
  Lisa Nichols: I have never had anyone say that out of four hundred plus episodes.
• 52:48
  Lisa Nichols: So that is so good, Trevor.
• 52:51
  Lisa Nichols: I think I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours and
• 52:55
  Lisa Nichols: hours....
• 52:56
  Trevor Gavin: So much control.
• 52:57
  Lisa Nichols: Yeah.
• 52:57
  Lisa Nichols: But I I will have to do that offline.
• 53:00
  Trevor Gavin: Yes.
• 53:01
  Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much.
• 53:02
  Lisa Nichols: Thank you so much for being with me today, for sharing your journey,
• 53:07
  Lisa Nichols: for sharing your wisdom.
• 53:08
  Lisa Nichols: And, I just know it's gonna help our listeners, so I appreciate
• 53:13
  Lisa Nichols: you.
• 53:13
  Trevor Gavin: Thank you.
• 53:13
  Trevor Gavin: It's mutual.
• 53:14
  Trevor Gavin: And thank you, Lisa, for, just being you and how curious you are when
• 53:18
  Trevor Gavin: you show up and gracious you are to other people, and, and the joy
• 53:22
  Trevor Gavin: and love that you exude in, in these podcasts and the time that we've
• 53:26
  Trevor Gavin: been able to chat.
• 53:28
  Trevor Gavin: So thank you for being you and inviting me into this opportunity.
• 53:31
  Lisa Nichols: Absolutely.
• 53:33
  Lisa Nichols: Have a great rest of the day, my friend.
• 53:36
  Announcer: Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production.
• 53:40
  Announcer: Copyright Technology Partners Inc twenty nineteen.
• 53:43
  Announcer: To learn more about this week's guest, check out the show notes at tpi
• 53:47
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• 53:52
  Announcer: Thank you for listening to Something Extra.