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The Loudun Demonic Possessions · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: It began with strange noises inside a nun's convent, and
0:11
Speaker 1: the frightened women soon whispered that something evil had found
0:15
Speaker 1: its way into the small French town of Loudoun. But
0:18
Speaker 1: before long, those nuns began screaming, convulsing, and claiming that
0:24
Speaker 1: demons had taken control of their bodies, while thousands gathered
0:29
Speaker 1: to watch their exorcisms. At the center of it all
0:33
Speaker 1: was one man, a local priest named the women claimed
0:36
Speaker 1: was responsible for everything that was happening. And so he
0:40
Speaker 1: felt the full wrath of the church as a result.
0:44
Speaker 1: But in the end, the questions of demons, responsibility, and
0:47
Speaker 1: possessions were left lingering, even after blood was eventually spilled.
0:53
Speaker 1: And this, this is the story of the Luden Demonic Possessions.
0:59
Speaker 1: My name's Ben.
1:01
Speaker 2: I'm Nicole. And you're listening to Wicked and Grim.
1:04
Speaker 1: A true crime podcast.
1:16
Speaker 3: Listener discretion is advised. Guess what? What? It's October. It's
1:27
Speaker 3: officially Halloween month.
1:42
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like it was already Halloween season
1:44
Speaker 2: for all of us, but for everyone else nowadays.
1:48
Speaker 1: We got into like spooky season, but like October is
1:50
Speaker 1: specifically Halloween month. You know what I mean? So, you know,
1:54
Speaker 1: like September you get permission to be like, you know, it's,
1:57
Speaker 1: it's autumn. So you can have like soups and you
2:00
Speaker 1: can have some spooky stuff in your house and watch
2:02
Speaker 1: some scary movies. But October is Halloween month. Can't, can't
2:07
Speaker 1: argue it anymore. It's here.
2:09
Speaker 2: It's here. It's upon us.
2:11
Speaker 3: It is.
2:12
Speaker 2: You know, when you were doing your intro, I was like, dude,
2:14
Speaker 2: we just did a nun case in my head. And
2:17
Speaker 2: then I was like, oh shit, nevermind. That was on
2:19
Speaker 2: the show I watched the other day.
2:21
Speaker 1: You're just watching TV and getting confused.
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Speaker 3: I know.
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Speaker 2: I've been binging Tracker. Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed. And yeah,
2:28
Speaker 2: they just did like a show with nuns. So then
2:31
Speaker 2: I was like, what are you doing? But you're good.
2:35
Speaker 1: Apparently I'm copying the show you just watched.
2:37
Speaker 2: No, you're not copying. I just thought we had done... Like,
2:39
Speaker 2: you know how things kind of just like they mash
2:42
Speaker 2: together sometimes, you know?
2:43
Speaker 4: Fair.
2:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, they do.
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Speaker 2: Anyway, you're good.
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Speaker 1: Okay. Well, are you ready to get into this story
2:49
Speaker 1: instead of just your TV show?
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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm very ready.
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Speaker 1: Okay. Well, this is definitely getting us in the spooky
2:56
Speaker 1: side of things all for the Halloween season. And I
2:59
Speaker 1: do want to preface this. I have done my best
3:01
Speaker 1: to look up how to pronounce each and every one
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Speaker 1: of these names and everything. But we are going to
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Speaker 1: the 1600s and we are going to a French town.
3:10
Speaker 1: There's a lot of French names. I'm going to be
3:12
Speaker 1: doing my best, but I do guarantee I'm going to
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Speaker 1: be butchering some of them along the way as well.
3:17
Speaker 2: The odd one might be. Yeah, that's okay.
3:20
Speaker 1: So just a heads up on that. I'm not known
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Speaker 1: for the best pronunciation at times for names. And this
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Speaker 1: one is, it's going to be up there on one
3:27
Speaker 1: of my worst ones, I'm sure. But I'm going to
3:29
Speaker 1: be doing my best. I have looked up on how
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Speaker 1: to say them, but things go out the window when
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Speaker 1: you're actually reading a script.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. And honestly, why should everyone be able to pronounce
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Speaker 2: everything well? You know?
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Speaker 1: I'm going to do my best.
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Speaker 2: That's all we can ask for. I just think that's okay,
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Speaker 2: that if there's words out there that people can't pronounce,
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Speaker 2: we move on.
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Speaker 1: Touche. So bear with me, but trust me when I
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Speaker 1: say this is an amazing, spooky story to get the
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Speaker 1: season going.
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Speaker 2: Seems like it's going to be.
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Speaker 1: All right. So let's get into it. In 1617, yes,
4:00
Speaker 1: that is the year, Urbain Grenier arrived in Loudon, a
4:04
Speaker 1: walled town in Western France, divided between Catholics and and
4:08
Speaker 1: the substantial Protestant population. He'd been appointed parish priest at
4:13
Speaker 1: the church of St. Pierre du Marché. He was also
4:17
Speaker 1: made a canon of the Colgate church of St. Croix.
4:21
Speaker 1: Urbain was educated, financially comfortable, and reportedly even quite handsome,
4:27
Speaker 1: with a reputation as an eloquent preacher. He also brought
4:32
Speaker 1: his recently widowed mother and three brothers along with him
4:34
Speaker 1: to Ludin. Now, Urbain... quickly became a prominent figure in
4:38
Speaker 1: the town, although not necessarily a universally popular one. He
4:44
Speaker 1: was sharp-tongued, confident, and willing to challenge people that he
4:48
Speaker 1: disagreed with. But more seriously, for a Catholic priest, he
4:53
Speaker 1: developed a reputation for relationships with women, despite the church's
4:58
Speaker 1: requirement of, you know, clerical celibacy. One woman repeatedly connected
5:04
Speaker 1: to Urbain was Philippa Tricant, daughter of Louis Tricant, the
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Speaker 1: king's prosecutor in Luden. It was widely believed that Urbain
5:14
Speaker 1: had fathered a child with Philippa, although the surviving accounts
5:18
Speaker 1: don't exactly establish that paternity as fact. Another woman associated
5:23
Speaker 1: with him was Madeleine de Bro, daughter of the king's counselor,
5:28
Speaker 1: with whom Urbain had said to have maintained an open
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Speaker 1: romantic relationship with. Now, this conduct of his created enemies.
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Speaker 1: And around 1629, Jacques de Thibault publicly criticized Urbain's behavior
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Speaker 1: with women. Urbain, being the very confrontational man that he was, well,
5:47
Speaker 1: he confronted him and demanded an explanation for it. And Thibault, well,
5:51
Speaker 1: he responded by beating him with a cane outside of St. Croix.
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Speaker 2: Holy moly, bro is just like making his own rules here.
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Speaker 1: Essentially. Now, the dispute soon moved to court, where Thibault
6:01
Speaker 1: raised additional allegations against Urbain. The matter was eventually transferred to,
6:06
Speaker 1: you know, an escalation within authorities. The Bishop of Poitiers
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Speaker 1: prohibited Urbain from performing public priestly functions for five years
6:16
Speaker 1: within the dossiers of Poitiers and permanently within Ludin. Urbain
6:22
Speaker 1: tried to appeal this decision, but several witnesses subsequently withdrew
6:25
Speaker 1: their statements. And the case was dismissed without prejudice, meaning
6:30
Speaker 1: it could potentially be reopened, but only if new evidence reappeared.
6:34
Speaker 1: And since people were withdrawing their statements of what they
6:37
Speaker 1: saw or heard or anything, he didn't exactly have much backing. Now,
6:41
Speaker 1: Urbane also had an increasingly bitter relationship with canon Jean Minon,
6:46
Speaker 1: another member of the St. Croix chapter. One account describes
6:50
Speaker 1: a dispute involving a house and a pre-bend, which is
6:53
Speaker 1: essentially an income-producing position. that Mignon wanted, but Urbain had it. Now,
6:59
Speaker 1: he was also reportedly involved in several proceedings against Urbain
7:03
Speaker 1: during the 1620s and into the early 1630s. So, whatever
7:08
Speaker 1: the exact origins of their hostility, what is clear is
7:11
Speaker 1: that by this point, the two clergymen were not exactly
7:14
Speaker 1: fans of one another. Meanwhile, another Catholic institution had appeared
7:20
Speaker 1: in Ludin. In 1626, an Ursuline community, which is a
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Speaker 1: Roman Catholic religious order of women, was established in town
7:29
Speaker 1: as part of the broader Catholic presence in the community
7:32
Speaker 1: where Protestants remained rather influential. Now, the Ursulines initially had
7:37
Speaker 1: very little money, so they rented a small house and
7:40
Speaker 1: operated under considerably more modest conditions. And among the women
7:45
Speaker 1: there was Jeanne Belsier, better known by her religious name,
7:50
Speaker 1: Jeanne d'Anges. In 1627, at approximately 25 years old, Jian
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Speaker 1: became the superior of the community, and the membership at
8:00
Speaker 1: the time was only around seven at this period. But
8:03
Speaker 1: under Jian, additional sisters were recruited, including women from prominent
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Speaker 1: local families. And by around 1630, the community had grown
8:11
Speaker 1: to roughly 15 women, or nuns, because that's what they were.
8:16
Speaker 1: But outside the convent, the political situation was becoming increasingly tense.
8:21
Speaker 1: The French crown under Louis King XIII and his chief minister,
8:25
Speaker 1: Cardinal Armand Jean de Plessis de Richelieu was sentencing royal
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Speaker 1: authority while reducing the military independence for fortified Protestant strongholds.
8:35
Speaker 1: The major Huguenot city of La Rochelle had fallen after
8:39
Speaker 1: a prolonged siege in 1628, while Ludin had still substantial
8:44
Speaker 1: fortifications of its own. And in January 1630, the king
8:49
Speaker 1: ordered Ludin's walls and defensive works to be demolished. There
8:54
Speaker 1: was significant local resistance within Protestants opposed to losing the
8:59
Speaker 1: town's defenses, although oppositions to demolition was not exactly exclusive
9:05
Speaker 1: to Protestants. Urbain became associated with those resisting the destruction
9:11
Speaker 1: and had connections among prominent Protestants, despite remaining a Catholic
9:15
Speaker 1: priest himself. Now, in 1631, Royal Counselor Jean Martin de
9:22
Speaker 1: Lambert-de-Mont was still in Ludin in connection with the enforcement
9:27
Speaker 1: of this demolishment order. Now, Jean Martin already had experienced
9:32
Speaker 1: with prosecutions involving alleged witchcraft, although some of the more
9:37
Speaker 1: dramatic claims about the number of people he had previously
9:39
Speaker 1: sent to the stake vary in reliability. For now, though,
9:44
Speaker 1: his business in Ludin concerned the town's fortifications. But that
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Speaker 1: same year, something considerably smaller began unfolding behind the doors
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Speaker 1: of that new Ursuline home. See, the convent's confessor, Father Mustaut, died,
10:02
Speaker 1: and after his death, some of the women inside the
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Speaker 1: convent began reporting some unusual disturbances. There were unexplained noises,
10:11
Speaker 1: including sounds reportedly coming from the attic. Figures were said
10:15
Speaker 1: to appear near windows. Some of the women were and
10:18
Speaker 1: boarders living in the house with the Ursulines became frightened
10:21
Speaker 1: as a result, and the idea began circulating that the
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Speaker 1: dead confessor had returned to the covenant from the grave.
10:29
Speaker 1: The strange activity inside the Ursuline convent remained relatively constant
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Speaker 1: at first, but in 1632, life throughout Ludin became considerably
10:39
Speaker 1: more frightening for reasons that had nothing to do with ghosts.
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Speaker 1: It was in May of 1632 when a plague actually
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Speaker 1: struck the town, The exact death toll varies among surviving records,
10:52
Speaker 1: although several of the sources that I found place it
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Speaker 1: in the thousands, with some estimates being roughly 3,700 deaths
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Speaker 1: up to 4,000 deaths between May and September of that year.
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Speaker 1: Physicians and wealthier residents who could leave reportedly fled, while
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Speaker 1: those who had to remain there attempted to isolate themselves.
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Speaker 1: The Ursulines closed themselves off. They stopped receiving visitors in
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Speaker 1: their parlor and had little contact with the outside world.
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Speaker 1: Then by the late summer, the epidemic was beginning to subside,
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Speaker 1: but Ludin had spent months surrounded by sickness and death
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Speaker 1: at that point. Then on the night of September 22nd, 1632,
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Speaker 1: the disturbances inside the nuns' convent, it intensified. Many accounts
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Speaker 1: differ slightly over who exactly saw what first, But whoever
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Speaker 1: it was, whoever encountered it first, they described seeing an apparition,
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Speaker 1: a man dressed as a clergyman. The figure was identified
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Speaker 1: as the recently deceased Father Moussout. He appeared dressed in
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Speaker 1: black and carrying a large white book. He reportedly approached
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Speaker 1: the woman, asking for help or prayers before simply disappearing.
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Speaker 1: Soon others saw him too. Then within days, the reports
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Speaker 1: became even stranger. A large black ball or orb was
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Speaker 1: said to have moved through the convent's refectory, apparently even
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Speaker 1: knocking some women down to the ground. Then roughly a
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Speaker 1: week after the first apparition, there were even reports of
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Speaker 1: a skeleton-like figure wandering throughout the convent. Through the remainder
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Speaker 1: of September, nuns described hearing voices when no one was there.
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Speaker 1: Others said that they were struck or slapped by something
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Speaker 1: they couldn't see. Some even experienced sudden fits of uncontrollable laughter.
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Speaker 1: And through it all, there was no physical source anyone
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Speaker 1: could point to for what was happening. Then, by the
12:58
Speaker 1: night of October 1st, Jian's experiences in the convent had
13:04
Speaker 1: become even more unusual. At approximately 10pm that night, Jian
13:09
Speaker 1: was reportedly surrounded by at least seven other nuns who
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Speaker 1: were praying with her for relief from these disturbances. And
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Speaker 1: during those prayers, she suddenly felt what she described as
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Speaker 1: an invisible hand closing in around her own clasped hands.
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Speaker 1: When she opened them up, looking at what were her fists,
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Speaker 1: she saw on the palm of her hand three hawthorn
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Speaker 1: thorns laying there. She had no explanation for how these
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Speaker 1: thorns had gotten into her grasp. Now, attention grew more
13:43
Speaker 1: and more around the possibility that what was happening was
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Speaker 1: not simply a haunting. Now, canon Jean Mignon, who was
13:50
Speaker 1: now serving the Ursulines spiritually, became directly involved. Mignon contacted
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Speaker 1: Father Pierre Berry, who already had experiences with alleged possessions.
14:01
Speaker 1: Pierre had recently even been involved in another controversial case
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Speaker 1: in which several women were said to have been possessed
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Speaker 1: and another priest was accused of causing it. On October 5th, 1632,
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Speaker 1: three exorcisms were performed on Jian. The records describe the
14:18
Speaker 1: sessions as being very violent. Jian suffered what was characterized
14:22
Speaker 1: as attacks of vexation. She howled and ground her teeth
14:26
Speaker 1: with such force that reportedly two of her back teeth
14:31
Speaker 1: even broke. She'd also complained of severe mental distress and
14:36
Speaker 1: having a pounding heart through the process. But eventually, the
14:41
Speaker 1: episode stopped, and Jian declared that she felt relieved and
14:46
Speaker 1: believed herself to be cured. That night, she reportedly slept peacefully,
14:53
Speaker 1: and better than she had since the apparitions began.
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Speaker 2: There's really a lot going on in this case.
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Speaker 1: There really is.
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Speaker 2: But I will just say quick, I've been able to
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Speaker 2: like very much so picture like spooky vibes in this episode.
15:09
Speaker 2: like convent and like dark hallways and stuff. I don't
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Speaker 2: know why, but I've just like been taken into that. So.
15:15
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that you've been able to, I mean,
15:17
Speaker 1: I don't know what it looked like there in all honesty,
15:20
Speaker 1: but this, we are going back to the 1600s.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So I think it would be, nowadays it would be
15:24
Speaker 2: like considered probably pretty spooky, you know?
15:26
Speaker 1: Oh, for sure. I'm assuming that there's like candlelight and
15:29
Speaker 1: that sort of thing going on in a relatively small
15:32
Speaker 1: home and of course, ghosts and religious stuff all over
15:36
Speaker 1: the place. So I would probably be pooping my pants.
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Speaker 2: Raw finishing to the house kind of thing.
15:41
Speaker 1: Exactly. But it is definitely a bit of a confusing story.
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Speaker 1: I'm going to break it down real simple for now. Essentially,
15:49
Speaker 1: in the 1600s in France, there's a lot of turmoil
15:52
Speaker 1: going on. You've got political stuff. You've got religious things
15:56
Speaker 1: going on. You have Protestants, you have Catholics, and they're
15:58
Speaker 1: kind of at a bit of a war. And so
16:01
Speaker 1: in Ludin, you have all this history of this stuff
16:04
Speaker 1: going on. But within Ludin, we have the convent.
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Speaker 3: Okay.
16:09
Speaker 1: And then we also have Urbane, who's, for lack of
16:12
Speaker 1: better words, being a little bit of a slutty priest.
16:14
Speaker 1: Let's just say that.
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Speaker 2: Making his own rules, like I said.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Exactly. So that's what we have going on. And now
16:20
Speaker 1: in this convent, they have these hauntings that are starting.
16:24
Speaker 1: And we will get back to Urbane. Don't worry. He's
16:26
Speaker 1: got a pretty large part in this story. But for now...
16:30
Speaker 1: That's about where we sit.
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Speaker 3: Okay.
16:32
Speaker 2: And they also are facing like the plague, because I
16:34
Speaker 2: can even imagine how they're dealing with all those deceased bodies. Dang.
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Speaker 1: So they are coming out of the plague at this point,
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Speaker 1: but they're at the tail end of it.
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Speaker 4: Yes.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And we have Jian, who is the leader of this
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Speaker 1: convent right now, the Urbains. And she is reportedly going, well,
16:52
Speaker 1: she went through an exorcism just now and she slept
16:54
Speaker 1: great this night and- Unfortunately, her feeling good and sleeping good,
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Speaker 1: it only lasted until the next morning.
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Speaker 2: Oh, she got very little relief, apparently.
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Speaker 1: She did. It was on October 6th when Jian was
17:06
Speaker 1: reportedly unable to receive communion and even reportedly denied God. Now,
17:12
Speaker 1: whatever Mignon and Father Pierre believed they had driven from
17:15
Speaker 1: the previous day seemed to have returned. The clergy began
17:19
Speaker 1: questioning the women about what was supposedly going on inside them.
17:24
Speaker 1: And a demon identified as Asmodeus was among the spirits
17:29
Speaker 1: said to be involved. When the women were asked who
17:32
Speaker 1: had caused their condition, the answers were initially very inconsistent.
17:37
Speaker 1: At different points, they reportedly offered descriptions or names, including,
17:40
Speaker 1: you know, a priest, Peter, a demon, Zabulon, I believe
17:46
Speaker 1: is how you say it. And for nearly a week
17:48
Speaker 1: after the exorcisms began, there was still no single human
17:52
Speaker 1: being being publicly identified as responsible for these events. But
17:56
Speaker 1: that did change on October 11th, 1632. Mignon and Father
18:02
Speaker 1: Pierre alerted local authorities, and officials came to observe Jeanne.
18:07
Speaker 1: Among those present during the resulting interrogation were the jurisdiction's
18:11
Speaker 1: prosecutor and bailiff Guilhemin de Cercey. Jeanne screamed and contorted
18:18
Speaker 1: as the priest conducted another exorcism and questioned her In Latin,
18:24
Speaker 1: it was during the interrogations Jan described a man who
18:27
Speaker 1: she claimed appeared inside her cell at night. According to
18:32
Speaker 1: her account, he filled her with unwanted sexual thoughts and
18:36
Speaker 1: was responsible for the supernatural attacks that she was now experiencing.
18:42
Speaker 1: She accused him of practicing sorcery and of entering into
18:47
Speaker 1: a pact with demons. And for the first time, Jian
18:51
Speaker 1: gave authorities the man's name. It was Urbane Grandier. Urbane
18:58
Speaker 1: Grandier had been named officially, and the disturbances inside the
19:03
Speaker 1: Ursuline convent were no longer simply a religious problem at
19:06
Speaker 1: this point. Jian was accusing a specific man of being
19:11
Speaker 1: responsible for them. She claimed he appeared inside that convent
19:15
Speaker 1: despite having no legitimate reason to be there. The accusations
19:20
Speaker 1: soon included a physical object too. A bouquet of roses
19:26
Speaker 1: that was supposedly used to introduce demonic influence into the convent.
19:32
Speaker 1: The surviving versions disagree on exactly how this happened though. Remember,
19:36
Speaker 1: we are talking about a story that's nearly 400 years
19:38
Speaker 1: old at this point. But one says Urbane threw the
19:41
Speaker 1: bouquet over the convent wall. Another places a bouquet of
19:46
Speaker 1: musk roses on a dormitory step. And during the exorcisms,
19:51
Speaker 1: the spirits identified as Asmodeus and Zabulon were said to
19:56
Speaker 1: have entered the women through these roses, basically being a
20:00
Speaker 1: conduit for the demons. But as much as this seems
20:04
Speaker 1: to be like their answer, there was an immediate problem
20:07
Speaker 1: with Jean's accusation. Several accounts state that the Ursulines had
20:11
Speaker 1: never personally met Urbane before ever naming him. The circumstances
20:17
Speaker 1: surrounding the vacant position of confessor are also disputed. Some
20:23
Speaker 1: accounts say that Urbane has been proposed for that position,
20:26
Speaker 1: but he had declined it, while others say that he
20:29
Speaker 1: sought it and someone else received it instead. All we
20:33
Speaker 1: know is that meanwhile, the supposed possession was spreading Within
20:40
Speaker 1: weeks of Jian's first exorcism, four additional sisters were claimed
20:44
Speaker 1: that demons were inhabiting their bodies. The women screamed, they barked,
20:50
Speaker 1: and swore out loud. They suffered violent convulsions and twisted
20:54
Speaker 1: their bodies into extreme positions. Some reportedly bent backwards until
20:58
Speaker 1: their heads approached their heels, while others violently whipped their heads,
21:03
Speaker 1: shaking them back and forth, back and forth. Accounts described
21:08
Speaker 1: arms shaking. appearing to twist unnaturally at the shoulders, elbows,
21:12
Speaker 1: and wrists. Their behavior could also become explicitly sexual as well.
21:18
Speaker 1: Some exposed themselves, made sexual gestures, or directed obscene propositions
21:24
Speaker 1: towards the men who were around them. Later descriptions claimed
21:29
Speaker 1: that tongues stuck out of their mouths. Sometimes their tongues protruded,
21:35
Speaker 1: appearing swollen. dark and covered with small bumps, while the
21:39
Speaker 1: women still remained completely capable of speaking despite it. Now,
21:45
Speaker 1: there was also another important distinction between possession and obsession.
21:50
Speaker 1: An obsessed person was believed to have been attacked or
21:53
Speaker 1: harassed by a spirit from outside their body. With possession,
21:57
Speaker 1: the spirit's entering the person and occupying their body itself.
22:03
Speaker 1: Just for clarification. Now, Ludin, the clergy began identifying individual
22:09
Speaker 1: demons and attempting to determine where inside their victims they
22:14
Speaker 1: were located. By this stage, Jan herself was said to
22:18
Speaker 1: contain seven demons in total.
22:21
Speaker 2: Oh, this is just getting out of hand, I feel like.
22:24
Speaker 2: This is a mess.
22:25
Speaker 1: It's a massive mess. Now, the convulsions and obscenities alone
22:30
Speaker 1: didn't prove any sort of possession, though. Among the traditional
22:34
Speaker 1: signs- or the ability to understand or speak languages the
22:38
Speaker 1: supposed possessed person had never learned, or even knowledge of
22:43
Speaker 1: hidden or distant events and feats of strength beyond normal
22:47
Speaker 1: human ability. Levitation was another commonly cited one, too. But
22:52
Speaker 1: the Luden women were not demonstrating these, at least not
22:57
Speaker 1: when they were tested, not when they were being watched.
23:00
Speaker 1: That didn't stop any exorcisms, though. What had started privately
23:05
Speaker 1: soon moved to the front of spectators. People were watching.
23:09
Speaker 1: The Ursulines were taken from the convent, brought through Luden
23:13
Speaker 1: to churches or chapels, where exorcisms were performed publicly. Accounts
23:18
Speaker 1: described women being placed on raised platforms or scaffolds and
23:22
Speaker 1: restrained even to chairs while priests questioned the demons supposedly
23:25
Speaker 1: speaking through them. The performances attracted increasingly large crowds, with
23:31
Speaker 1: audiences growing as high as 2,500 people in some reports,
23:36
Speaker 1: with visitors traveling from as far away as England and
23:39
Speaker 1: Scotland to witness them. Not everyone watching these believed what
23:44
Speaker 1: they were seeing, though. People in Luton openly described the
23:47
Speaker 1: events as fake. Physicians and apothecaries were brought in to
23:52
Speaker 1: examine the women. The absence of reliable foreign language ability, clairvoyance, levitation,
23:58
Speaker 1: or other expected supernatural signs became increasingly difficult to ignore.
24:03
Speaker 1: Now Urbane was fighting the accusations of his responsibility directly too.
24:07
Speaker 1: And rather than accepting that Jian's behavior demonstrated witchcraft, he
24:11
Speaker 1: demanded that the women be formally examined. Bailiff Cersei supported
24:17
Speaker 1: an investigation involving physicians who could test whether the Ursulines
24:21
Speaker 1: actually possessed the abilities expected of genuine demonic possession. And
24:25
Speaker 1: that examination took place on November 25th and 26th, In 1632,
24:31
Speaker 1: the investigators questioned the women in different languages, and if
24:36
Speaker 1: entities inside them were demons, contemporary belief held that those
24:40
Speaker 1: entities should understand the questionings regardless of whether the women
24:44
Speaker 1: themselves knew the language. But they couldn't answer in those languages.
24:50
Speaker 1: According to the account preserved in the French sources, the
24:53
Speaker 1: sisters demonstrated knowledge only of Latin, and even their Latin
24:58
Speaker 1: was considered poor. The investigators then tested another claim of
25:04
Speaker 1: supernatural ability. The women were asked to identify where Urbane
25:08
Speaker 1: was at that exact moment, but they couldn't answer correctly.
25:14
Speaker 1: After two days of examination, it was concluded that the
25:17
Speaker 1: supposed supernatural abilities could not be demonstrated. The possession claims
25:22
Speaker 1: were judged there as fraudulent, and Urbane's name was officially cleared.
25:29
Speaker 1: Church authorities also intervened. The Archbishop of Bordeaux ordered the
25:33
Speaker 1: Ursulines confined and separated, bringing the growing public spectacle surrounding
25:38
Speaker 1: the women under tighter control, bringing a formal end to
25:42
Speaker 1: the exorcisms in March of 1633. Now, once the women
25:48
Speaker 1: were sequestered and the public exorcisms stopped, the reported manifestations
25:53
Speaker 1: began to subside. And for several months, the situation in
25:56
Speaker 1: Ludin lost its momentum. The women had failed the examinations
26:00
Speaker 1: demanded by Urbain, the public exorcisms were done, and the
26:04
Speaker 1: Ursulines were isolated, sequestered. But during the summer of that year,
26:10
Speaker 1: reports of possessions began to intensify once again. This time,
26:15
Speaker 1: Jean-Martin de Labordemont was in a position to intervene. He
26:20
Speaker 1: already knew Ludin from his work enforcing the destruction of
26:23
Speaker 1: its fortifications, and had previously supported Fr. Pierre Barry, during
26:28
Speaker 1: another disputed possession case. But this time, he now had
26:32
Speaker 1: a personal connection to what was happening, because two of
26:36
Speaker 1: his sister-in-laws were members of the Ursuline community, and they
26:41
Speaker 1: themselves declared they had been possessed. At the same time,
26:47
Speaker 1: Urbane remained involved in the fight over Ludin's defenses. He'd
26:51
Speaker 1: become a spokesperson for the Duke of Archmagnac, who opposed
26:56
Speaker 1: destruction of the town's keep and fortifications. Now, whether Jean
27:00
Speaker 1: Martin's actions against Urbain were driven by genuine belief in witchcraft, politics,
27:07
Speaker 1: or even personal connections, or some combination, it cannot be
27:11
Speaker 1: established from surviving accounts. But what is clear is that
27:14
Speaker 1: the investigation was revived. On November 30th, 1633, During a
27:21
Speaker 1: council of state involving King Louis XIII and Cardinal Richelieu,
27:26
Speaker 1: Jean Martin obtained an order authorizing Urbain's arrest, and on
27:32
Speaker 1: December 7th, Urbain was imprisoned at Angers. From there, Jean
27:38
Speaker 1: Martin began what would become an approximately eight-month-long investigation. Witness
27:45
Speaker 1: statements were collected from people who claimed Urbain had somehow
27:48
Speaker 1: appeared inside the Ursuline convent. at different hours even, despite
27:52
Speaker 1: no one being able to explain how he entered. Other
27:56
Speaker 1: accusations concerned sexual and indecent behavior that he had shown.
28:01
Speaker 1: Urbane was questioned, made to sign a statement containing his
28:04
Speaker 1: responses and even denials, and his property was searched. And
28:09
Speaker 1: in that search, it produced some writings that had become
28:12
Speaker 1: part of the case against him. See, one was Urbane's manuscript,
28:17
Speaker 1: arguing against clerical celibacy. And Urbain didn't deny writing it.
28:24
Speaker 1: A second document was more contentious, though. There was a
28:28
Speaker 1: copy of a 29-page anti-Richelieu pamphlet published in 1627, presented
28:35
Speaker 1: in the form of a letter and signed under the
28:37
Speaker 1: pseudonym Catherine d'Amour. And Jean Martin didn't hesitate to attribute
28:42
Speaker 1: the work to Urbain, even though Urbain flat-out denied writing it. Now,
28:47
Speaker 1: his supporters were also challenging the investigation. Bailiff Suresay, who
28:51
Speaker 1: had participated in the examinations that failed to substantiate the
28:55
Speaker 1: possessions in 1632, wrote to the Prosecutor General of the Parliament,
29:00
Speaker 1: arguing that the possessions were an imposter. However, his correspondence
29:07
Speaker 1: was intercepted, as was the reply. Urbain's mother soon also
29:12
Speaker 1: became involved. Allegedly, she submitted five separate petitions against Jeanne Martin,
29:18
Speaker 1: accusing him of directing testimony against her son while excluding
29:22
Speaker 1: evidence that was favorable to him. And of course, there
29:26
Speaker 1: were several physicians who examined the supposed possessed women, and
29:29
Speaker 1: they were very skeptical of what they were seeing. But
29:32
Speaker 1: despite all of this, the investigation nevertheless continued. And on
29:37
Speaker 1: April 28th, 1634... Urbain's own body even became evidence against him.
29:45
Speaker 1: A surgeon identified as Manoroy examined him for stigmata. It's
29:51
Speaker 1: the so-called devil's marks, because it's believed that a witch
29:55
Speaker 1: or sorcerer might carry areas of the body marked by
29:58
Speaker 1: satan That were insensitive to pain, basically. So Urbane was
30:04
Speaker 1: stripped and examined with a sharp instrument. Basically, they're poking, prodding,
30:09
Speaker 1: piercing the skin, looking for obvious pain when they do so.
30:14
Speaker 1: and like anyone would, react, right? Well, yeah.
30:17
Speaker 2: That's like almost a form of torture in a way.
30:19
Speaker 1: Exactly. Light torture, but yes. They're essentially taking like a long,
30:24
Speaker 1: sharp piece of iron, poking you, like drawing just a
30:27
Speaker 1: little bit of blood, looking for a reaction, right? But
30:31
Speaker 1: Mannerite reported finding particular areas where Urbane supposedly did not
30:35
Speaker 1: respond to the pain you would expect when an instrument
30:38
Speaker 1: is used like this. Urbane immediately challenged what was being
30:42
Speaker 1: done to him, though. He maintained that Manneroy was not
30:45
Speaker 1: actually piercing those particular spots with the instrument like he
30:49
Speaker 1: had on the others, and only pretended to insert or
30:53
Speaker 1: jab this instrument into his skin and flesh, and then
30:56
Speaker 1: presenting the lack of reaction as proof of supernatural insensitivity
31:01
Speaker 1: to those areas.
31:02
Speaker 2: Jeez, that is not a good test, really.
31:05
Speaker 1: It's really not.
31:05
Speaker 2: Because there's so many things that could Or he could
31:08
Speaker 2: even have gotten kind of used to the pain near
31:10
Speaker 2: the end or something and then not reacted as much.
31:12
Speaker 2: Like there's so much.
31:13
Speaker 1: For sure. Me, for example, I've got a numb spot
31:16
Speaker 1: about three inches in diameter above my right knee.
31:19
Speaker 4: Right.
31:19
Speaker 1: Because working one time, I was about 25 or something.
31:22
Speaker 1: I fell in like not very far. I just fell
31:25
Speaker 1: to my knees and I hit something in a nerve.
31:27
Speaker 1: And ever since then, it deadened the nerve in that area.
31:29
Speaker 2: So they would just think that you have Satan in you.
31:32
Speaker 1: Basically. Oh, there's a spot. He doesn't react. He's possessed.
31:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:36
Speaker 1: Satan's in him. I mean, they're not wrong, I'm pretty sure.
31:39
Speaker 1: Pretty sure by today's standards in that era, I would
31:43
Speaker 1: definitely be possessed.
31:44
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
31:45
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wouldn't we all?
31:46
Speaker 1: Exactly. But the following day produced even more extraordinary evidence, though.
31:53
Speaker 1: On April 29th, 1634, Jean d'Agnes presented the judges with
31:59
Speaker 1: what was claimed to be a written contract between Urbain
32:03
Speaker 1: and the demon Asmodeus. That document was offered as physical
32:07
Speaker 1: proof that the priest had entered into an agreement with
32:10
Speaker 1: demonic forces. Now, other versions of this alleged the pact
32:15
Speaker 1: circulated involving claims that the original contract was signed in
32:19
Speaker 1: Urbane's blood even, but that part of it, the original,
32:23
Speaker 1: was actually in hell. Well, what they were holding was
32:25
Speaker 1: only a copy that was produced for human authorities, which
32:29
Speaker 1: is a pretty wild claim. Then on May 31st, Jean
32:34
Speaker 1: Martin returned to Luton carrying a decree from the Council
32:38
Speaker 1: of State that substantially strengthened his position. The decree confirmed
32:44
Speaker 1: his authority over the investigation and prohibited Parliament or other
32:48
Speaker 1: judges from interfering. Those involved were also forbidden from appealing
32:55
Speaker 1: under threat of a substantial fine, essentially making him the
33:01
Speaker 1: the definite judge over everything. Urbain was soon returned to Ludin,
33:09
Speaker 1: and on June 23rd, he was taken under guard to
33:12
Speaker 1: the Church of St. Croix, where the possessed women had
33:16
Speaker 1: been assembled. And because Urbain continued to maintain that the
33:20
Speaker 1: possessions were fraudulent, he was ordered to perform an exorcism
33:25
Speaker 1: on himself. Urbain was given a priestly stole, and the
33:30
Speaker 1: ritual book containing the prayers and instructions for the exorcism.
33:34
Speaker 1: And after receiving the pastoral blessing and the singing of
33:38
Speaker 1: the Venine creator, Urbain began the prescribed exorcism in front
33:42
Speaker 1: of the bishop of Poitiers, Jean Martin, and those assembled
33:47
Speaker 1: in the church. Now, by July 1634, openly questioning what
33:53
Speaker 1: was happening had itself reportedly became extremely dangerous. Jean Martin
33:58
Speaker 1: reportedly said, upped his threats and threatened a 10,000 livier
34:04
Speaker 1: fine and corporal punishment against anyone publicly disparaging the possessions.
34:12
Speaker 1: And finally, on August 10, 1634, the Bishop of Poitiers
34:18
Speaker 1: formally recognized that the possessions were in fact genuine. That
34:24
Speaker 1: meant that the investigation could now move to its final stage.
34:29
Speaker 1: And as Urbane's case moved towards final judgment, the exorcism
34:33
Speaker 1: still continued. But even among the women whose behavior had
34:37
Speaker 1: been helping build this case against him, certainty of it
34:41
Speaker 1: all was beginning to fracture. Some reportedly admitted that they
34:45
Speaker 1: could no longer tell whether they were genuinely possessed or
34:48
Speaker 1: had come to believe that they were because the clergy
34:51
Speaker 1: surrounding them repeatedly insisted to them that they were in
34:54
Speaker 1: fact possessed. More significantly, Some accounts state that three of
34:59
Speaker 1: the possessed women, including Jeanne herself, attempted to retract their
35:05
Speaker 1: accusations before the trial occurred. Telling Jean Martin that they
35:09
Speaker 1: had never actually been possessed, they were accusing an innocent man.
35:14
Speaker 1: Two women later specifically identified as admitting that their possessions
35:18
Speaker 1: were false were Claire de Sazely and Elisabeth Blachard. Other
35:23
Speaker 1: accounts describe Jian appearing even with a noose around her
35:26
Speaker 1: neck at one point, demanding that she be allowed to
35:30
Speaker 1: withdraw what she called her lies and threatening to hang
35:33
Speaker 1: herself if she couldn't. Now, the surviving versions offer, well,
35:37
Speaker 1: they differ over the exact circumstances, let's put it that way.
35:41
Speaker 1: And whether this amounted to an actual attempt of suicide
35:44
Speaker 1: is unknown. But what is clear is that she certainly
35:47
Speaker 1: wanted to withdraw her statement one way or another. And
35:50
Speaker 1: what else we do know? is that Jean Martin interpreted
35:53
Speaker 1: these reversals not as evidence clearing Urbain's name. No, he
35:57
Speaker 1: didn't see this as people actually wanting to withdraw their statements.
36:01
Speaker 1: He instead saw them as attempts by Satan to protect Urbain.
36:06
Speaker 1: So the prosecution continued on. Now, by the time the
36:10
Speaker 1: case was heard in August of 1634, the evidence assembled
36:14
Speaker 1: against Urbain included testimony from the possessed women, some of
36:17
Speaker 1: whom were unsuccessful in redacting their statements, and other witnesses
36:22
Speaker 1: their behavior during the exorcisms, the supposedly insensitive devil's marks
36:26
Speaker 1: found on his body, with accusations that he had entered
36:29
Speaker 1: the convent supernaturally, his writings, and the alleged demonic pact.
36:35
Speaker 1: He was also accused of attending or inviting others to
36:39
Speaker 1: witches' Sabbath. Reportedly, there were up to 72 witnesses that
36:45
Speaker 1: ultimately gave evidence against him, and at approximately 5 a.m.,
36:50
Speaker 1: On August 18th, 1634, Urbane was declared guilty of magic, sorcery,
36:57
Speaker 1: and maleficia, which is a Latin word I hope I
37:00
Speaker 1: said right. That essentially means black magic or dark magic
37:04
Speaker 1: for ill intent. Also, he was found guilty of including
37:08
Speaker 1: causing the demonic possession of the Ursuline nuns and other
37:12
Speaker 1: women in Luden. And his sentence, well, it was highly specific.
37:19
Speaker 1: Urbain was to perform an amende honorable, which is essentially
37:23
Speaker 1: a public apology to amend for his actions. He was
37:27
Speaker 1: to be bareheaded with a rope around his neck and
37:30
Speaker 1: a burning taper weight weighing two pounds in his hands.
37:35
Speaker 1: He was then to be taken in front of the
37:36
Speaker 1: main doors of the Saint-Pierre-du-Marché in the Ursuline church. And there,
37:42
Speaker 1: on his knees, he was required to ask for forgiveness
37:45
Speaker 1: from God, the King, and the law. But that's not all.
37:52
Speaker 1: From there, he would then be taken to the public
37:54
Speaker 1: square in St. Croix. He would then be tied to
37:56
Speaker 1: a stake on a scaffold, and he would be burned
38:00
Speaker 1: at the stake. His ashes were then to be scattered.
38:05
Speaker 1: His movable property was to be confiscated by the Crown,
38:08
Speaker 1: with a 500 lever fine specifically reserved to pay for
38:15
Speaker 1: the bronze plaque that was going to be summarizing the
38:17
Speaker 1: case to be installed prominently in the Ursuline church. But
38:22
Speaker 1: before any of that happened, however, the judges wanted the
38:25
Speaker 1: names of his supposed accomplices. So Urbain was then subject
38:31
Speaker 1: to a torture known as the boot. He was bound
38:36
Speaker 1: and his legs below the knees were placed between two
38:40
Speaker 1: pairs of rigid wooden boards, which were then tightly bound
38:45
Speaker 1: with rope. Wooden wedges were then inserted between the boards,
38:50
Speaker 1: and hammered inwards with a mallet. This forced the boards
38:54
Speaker 1: progressively tighter and tighter against his legs. And as additional
38:58
Speaker 1: wedges were driven in, the pressure increased more and more,
39:01
Speaker 1: becoming powerful enough to crack and crush the bones beneath them.
39:07
Speaker 1: The torture was administered in stages, with more wedges added.
39:13
Speaker 1: Four wedges was considered ordinary torture. Eight wedges was considered
39:19
Speaker 1: extraordinary torture, and eight wedges was generally reserved for prisoners
39:25
Speaker 1: already condemned to death. But Urbane, well he was reportedly
39:30
Speaker 1: subjected to two additional wedges even beyond that bringing the
39:36
Speaker 1: total number of wedges used against him crushing his legs
39:39
Speaker 1: and bones to 10.
39:42
Speaker 2: What is the point of that really though? Because he
39:44
Speaker 2: is going to be– they're going to be killing him anyway.
39:47
Speaker 1: Well, they're torturing him to try and get information for
39:50
Speaker 1: his quote-unquote accomplices.
39:53
Speaker 2: Jeez.
39:53
Speaker 1: They're trying to get information.
39:55
Speaker 4: Out of him.
39:55
Speaker 2: And this is like a whole scene too where there's
39:58
Speaker 2: like a lot of people watching and it's like a–
40:01
Speaker 2: isn't it? Or that would be the hanging maybe.
40:03
Speaker 1: The burning at the stake.
40:05
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:05
Speaker 1: No, this torture I believe would have taken place– Again,
40:09
Speaker 1: this is 400 years ago. I don't know for sure.
40:12
Speaker 1: But as far as I'm aware, privately, probably in a
40:14
Speaker 1: dungeon or something like that, yes. But who knows? Especially
40:18
Speaker 1: with the stuff they did then, it very well could
40:20
Speaker 1: have been a public spectacle too. Now, throughout the torture,
40:24
Speaker 1: Urbane was repeatedly ordered to confess to sorcery and identify
40:28
Speaker 1: those supposed accomplices. But Urbane continued to insist that he
40:33
Speaker 1: was not a sorcerer. There were no accomplices to name.
40:37
Speaker 1: even as he was screaming in pain and his bones
40:40
Speaker 1: were being crushed. Afterwards, his legs were now mangled and destroyed,
40:47
Speaker 1: and he could no longer walk to his execution. So
40:50
Speaker 1: he was transported through Ludin towards the place in St.
40:54
Speaker 1: Croix where a large crowd had assembled, with spectators numbering
40:58
Speaker 1: at an estimate of more than 6,000 people. Urbain had
41:03
Speaker 1: reportedly been promised two final concessions on this day, One,
41:08
Speaker 1: an opportunity to address the crowd, and two, to be
41:12
Speaker 1: strangled to death before the fire reached him, sparing him
41:17
Speaker 1: the full experience of being burned alive. Now, exactly what
41:21
Speaker 1: ultimately happened at that scaffold that day has been disputed.
41:27
Speaker 1: One account says that when Urbane attempted to speak, friars
41:30
Speaker 1: repeatedly threw holy water at him, preventing the crowd from
41:35
Speaker 1: hearing his words. He never got to speak to the crowd.
41:39
Speaker 1: And another says one of the exorcists ignited the fire
41:44
Speaker 1: before the executioner could strangle him. A further account says
41:49
Speaker 1: the executioner attempted the strangulation, but the flames rose too
41:52
Speaker 1: rapidly enough and it didn't work. Basically, it burned through
41:56
Speaker 1: the rope and it caused Urbane to fall alive into
41:58
Speaker 1: the burning wood. Another retelling claims that the strangling rope
42:02
Speaker 1: had been improperly prepared from the very beginning. So it's
42:07
Speaker 1: hard to say what actually happened that day almost 400
42:09
Speaker 1: years ago. But the sources support the central fact. The
42:14
Speaker 1: intended mercy failed. Urbane never got to speak, and he
42:21
Speaker 1: was ultimately burned alive. Urbane Grenier died at that place
42:28
Speaker 1: in St. Croix on August 18th, 1634, still denying that
42:34
Speaker 1: he bewitched the Ursulines. His body was consumed by the fire,
42:39
Speaker 1: and his ashes were scattered. But even after Urbane was dead,
42:44
Speaker 1: the problem his execution was supposed to address and solve? Well,
42:49
Speaker 1: it remained there.
42:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't doubt it.
42:52
Speaker 1: The Ursuline women continued screaming. They continued convulsing, cursing, and
42:58
Speaker 1: displaying the same behavior that had been attributed to demonic
43:01
Speaker 1: possession before their death. Public exorcisms continued. Some accounts describe
43:07
Speaker 1: them eventually being performed twice a day except Sundays, with
43:10
Speaker 1: spectators continuing to travel to Luden to watch. The clergy
43:15
Speaker 1: also continued cataloging the supposed demons. Jian still said to
43:20
Speaker 1: contain seven demons. Exorcists attempted to identify each spirit by
43:24
Speaker 1: name and determine where exactly they resided in her body.
43:27
Speaker 1: Surviving accounts identify Leviathan in her forehead, Beheret in her stomach,
43:34
Speaker 1: Balam Beneath her second rib. And Issacharan beneath her last
43:39
Speaker 1: left rib.
43:40
Speaker 2: Okay, see, and these things that they're doing, what are
43:44
Speaker 2: they called again, sorry?
43:45
Speaker 1: Exorcisms.
43:46
Speaker 2: Exorcisms are almost, I'm sure they're not like comfortable, hey?
43:50
Speaker 1: Oh no.
43:50
Speaker 2: And they're just repeatedly doing these to these nuns? Yeah. Holy,
43:56
Speaker 2: when they thought they had already solved the problem. Oh
43:59
Speaker 2: my gosh, this is just terrible.
44:01
Speaker 1: It's dark.
44:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
44:03
Speaker 3: Yeah.
44:04
Speaker 1: Now, these placements in Jian, though, were not considered random.
44:09
Speaker 1: Demons were mapped according to their supposed spiritual rank, with
44:13
Speaker 1: higher ranking entities occupying different regions of her body. The exorcists,
44:18
Speaker 1: of course, then attempted to force these individual demons out.
44:21
Speaker 1: And Jian also reportedly experienced what was described as a
44:25
Speaker 1: psychosomatic or false pregnancy. Symptoms, physical symptoms associated with pregnancy,
44:33
Speaker 1: is what she was experiencing, despite not actually being pregnant.
44:37
Speaker 1: Then approximately four months after Urbane's execution, a new exorcist
44:42
Speaker 1: arrived in Luton. Father Jean-Joseph Sirin, a Jesuit priest, approached
44:49
Speaker 1: Jian differently from many of the clergy who had preceded him, actually. See,
44:54
Speaker 1: rather than relying primarily on public confrontation and spectacle, Father
44:59
Speaker 1: Sirin encouraged private prayer. penitence, and mystical religion devotion. He
45:06
Speaker 1: introduced Jian to the writings of Teresa of Alivia and
45:10
Speaker 1: tried to redirect her attention towards an internal spiritual life.
45:16
Speaker 1: But Father Sirin also made an extraordinary decision. He prayed
45:21
Speaker 1: that the demons tormenting Jian would enter him instead. According
45:27
Speaker 1: to Father Sirin's own later account, something began happening to
45:31
Speaker 1: him physically after that. He experienced severe headaches, difficulty breathing,
45:36
Speaker 1: and fits of trembling, along with what he described as
45:41
Speaker 1: physical hallucinations. He initially interpreted these experiences as demonic obsession,
45:47
Speaker 1: an outside attack, not possession, when they take over his
45:49
Speaker 1: physical vessel. Then he felt something enter him after that.
45:54
Speaker 1: Father Surin described an intense pain entering at the base
45:59
Speaker 1: of his stomach. He interpreted this as the moment the
46:04
Speaker 1: demon moved from obsession to possession. Unlike the Ursuline women, though,
46:10
Speaker 1: Father Sorin said he remained conscious and aware of himself
46:14
Speaker 1: throughout these experiences. And as Jian's condition gradually improved, his deteriorated.
46:21
Speaker 1: He experienced profound despair. and eventually became unable to function
46:26
Speaker 1: normally for extended periods. His difficulties continued long after the
46:30
Speaker 1: Luden exorcisms themselves, even, and he eventually attempted to even
46:34
Speaker 1: kill himself as a result. Now, he ultimately survived, though,
46:39
Speaker 1: and over many years, he gradually recovered enough to resume
46:42
Speaker 1: studying and writing. Meanwhile, stories began circulating about other people
46:48
Speaker 1: connected to Urbain's prosecution. Father Lactance, Father Tranquil, and Surgeon
46:54
Speaker 1: Manaroy were all later said to have suffered bizarre deteriorations
46:58
Speaker 1: or have died in states of delirium. One particular dramatic
47:02
Speaker 1: account even claims Urbane had predicted at the stake when
47:06
Speaker 1: he died that Father Lactance would die within 30 days,
47:11
Speaker 1: and he subsequently reportedly did. Now these stories became part
47:15
Speaker 1: of the legend surrounding Ludin, and many retellings increasingly present
47:19
Speaker 1: these events as a curse connected to Urbane's executions. Regardless
47:24
Speaker 1: of them, though, the exorcisms themselves continued through 1635, 1636,
47:31
Speaker 1: and even into 1637. By this stage, supposed physical proof
47:36
Speaker 1: of successful exorcisms had become important. When demons depart, they
47:41
Speaker 1: were sometimes expected to leave marks or stigmata on women's bodies,
47:45
Speaker 1: and Jian displayed several such reported marks. But not everyone
47:50
Speaker 1: examining them believed it, though. Reportedly, some physicians examining Jian
47:54
Speaker 1: concluded that some of the wounds appeared self-inflicted rather than supernatural. Now, finally,
48:02
Speaker 1: on October 15, 1637, Father Sirin performed what was regarded
48:07
Speaker 1: as Jian's final successful exorcism. And then, of course, that's
48:12
Speaker 1: when he had the possession enter him. But that's when
48:17
Speaker 1: the last demon was declared expelled. According to the accounts
48:22
Speaker 1: surrounding her recovery, the departures left something remarkable behind. Marks
48:27
Speaker 1: appearing on Gian's left hand, forming scarred names associated with
48:33
Speaker 1: her supposed deliverance. Those scars on her hand wrote out
48:38
Speaker 1: the names of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and Francis de Sales.
48:45
Speaker 1: By the time Gian had declared deliverance, been declared sorry
48:49
Speaker 1: free of possession, another account had emerged that potentially changed
48:53
Speaker 1: how the entire Ludin affair began. It came from Marie Abin,
48:57
Speaker 1: who had been 16 years old, and she was a
49:00
Speaker 1: boarder living with the Ursulines when the first disturbances occurred
49:03
Speaker 1: back in 1631. Marie reportedly kept what she knew a
49:09
Speaker 1: secret all the way until 1636. According to her, some
49:14
Speaker 1: of the convent's younger nuns admitted the original hauntings, were
49:20
Speaker 1: nothing more than a prank. They deliberately got out of
49:23
Speaker 1: bed at night, created strange noises around the building. Some
49:27
Speaker 1: even supposedly went as far as climbing onto the roof
49:31
Speaker 1: and then even going outside so they can suddenly appear
49:34
Speaker 1: outside a window, terrifying other nuns and boarders who had
49:37
Speaker 1: no idea what was happening. But even still, if this
49:42
Speaker 1: is a true explanation, it only explains some things, definitely
49:47
Speaker 1: not everything, such as convulsions or stigmatas that the nuns experienced,
49:52
Speaker 1: to say. Now, after her final exorcism, Jian's life moved
49:57
Speaker 1: in a remarkably different direction. With those scars on her hand,
50:01
Speaker 1: she began traveling. Accounts described a journey through France that
50:05
Speaker 1: included tours, Blois, Orleans, Paris, Nevers, Moulins, Lyon's, And she
50:10
Speaker 1: made a pilgrimage to many places that connected with St.
50:14
Speaker 1: Francis de Sales. She displayed her marks on her hands,
50:17
Speaker 1: her scars with these names to religious authorities, aristocrats, and
50:22
Speaker 1: even crowds. In 1638, she was received by the Cardinal Richelieu,
50:28
Speaker 1: King Louis XIII, and Queen Anne of Austria. There are
50:32
Speaker 1: even claims that Jeanne was even present for the birth
50:35
Speaker 1: of future King Louis XIV that year. But her hand?
50:39
Speaker 1: attracted scrutiny. In 1645, traveler Balthazar de Monconis reportedly examined
50:47
Speaker 1: her hand, and in doing so, he rubbed at one
50:50
Speaker 1: of the markings. And according to some accounts, he succeeded
50:55
Speaker 1: in partially smudging or removing a letter away. Now, Jian
51:01
Speaker 1: eventually returned to religious life and died in 1665. By then,
51:06
Speaker 1: the Ursuline community was reportedly far wealthier than the poor
51:10
Speaker 1: convent established in Ludin decades earlier. And after Jeanne's death,
51:15
Speaker 1: while her sisters were even said to have preserved her
51:19
Speaker 1: head in a reliquary for respect. Now by then, people
51:24
Speaker 1: had already begun questioning what had really happened in Ludin
51:27
Speaker 1: back then. Dr. Mark Duncan, a Scottish physician living nearby,
51:33
Speaker 1: believed the women were neither possessed nor necessarily pretending either. Instead,
51:39
Speaker 1: he argued that their experiences could have been created by
51:42
Speaker 1: their imagination, made worse by fasting, long periods of prayer,
51:47
Speaker 1: and the isolated conditions of convent life, essentially leading to
51:52
Speaker 1: the idea of hysteria. Then, by 1679, philosopher John Locke
51:59
Speaker 1: argued that the events had been deliberately manipulated to destroy
52:02
Speaker 1: Urbain himself. In 1693, Nicholas Aubin similarly claimed that the
52:08
Speaker 1: women had been coached during their exorcisms, and that religious
52:11
Speaker 1: and political interests had helped drive the accusations against Urbain.
52:16
Speaker 1: Over the following centuries, explanations increasingly moved away from demons
52:21
Speaker 1: and towards psychology, group influence, and religious pressure. More recent
52:27
Speaker 1: historians have also looked at the larger situation surrounding Ludin.
52:31
Speaker 1: the conflict between Catholics and Protestants, the destruction of the
52:35
Speaker 1: town's fortifications, growing royal control, and the political interests of
52:40
Speaker 1: powerful men involved in this case. There has never been
52:45
Speaker 1: one explanation that neatly accounts for everything that happened, though.
52:50
Speaker 1: But what can be established is strange enough without deciding
52:53
Speaker 1: whether demons ever entered the Ursuline convent. Beginning with noises
52:58
Speaker 1: and supposed apparitions in 1631, The events at Ludin grew
53:03
Speaker 1: into years of convulsions, exorcisms, alleged supernatural evidence, and public spectacles.
53:11
Speaker 1: They led directly to accusations against a priest, who consistently
53:14
Speaker 1: denied practicing witchcraft. It failed to end when the priest
53:19
Speaker 1: was tortured and burnt alive, and it continued for more
53:22
Speaker 1: than three years after his death even. Urbain Grenier died
53:28
Speaker 1: for causing those possessions in Ludin. But the possessions outlived him.
53:33
Speaker 1: But the story of his death, well, it outlived those possessions.
53:40
Speaker 1: And that's the story of the Ludin Demonic Possessions.
53:45
Speaker 2: That story's really messed up.
53:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
53:48
Speaker 2: I didn't say much in this because you had to, like,
53:50
Speaker 2: really pay attention, first of all. And it was just,
53:55
Speaker 2: I don't know, such a different story that I was like,
53:58
Speaker 2: the fuck is happening here? Is this actually happening?
54:01
Speaker 1: There is a lot to it. There's a lot to
54:04
Speaker 1: take in. So yeah, I understand you staying a bit
54:06
Speaker 1: more quiet because we really got to think on this one.
54:09
Speaker 1: There's so much political, religious turmoil. There's the he said,
54:14
Speaker 1: the she said.
54:15
Speaker 2: The making up of their own damn rules, really. A
54:19
Speaker 2: lot of them, I feel like.
54:20
Speaker 1: Honestly, a lot of people say that about people in
54:23
Speaker 1: positions of power, whether it be religious or political or
54:27
Speaker 1: who knows what.
54:28
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I just feel like no one really
54:31
Speaker 2: knew what the fuck was going on. And so they
54:33
Speaker 2: were just flying by the seat of their pants.
54:37
Speaker 1: Aren't we all? Honestly, let's just be honest and real
54:41
Speaker 1: here for a second.
54:42
Speaker 2: I just I find it very hard to comprehend, though,
54:45
Speaker 2: that this the nuns were just like coached. And then
54:49
Speaker 2: this was this was kind of like a prank. What
54:52
Speaker 2: the heck?
54:52
Speaker 1: Well, I can understand. OK, if it did start as
54:55
Speaker 1: a prank, some some younger kids. Girls, you know, thinking
55:00
Speaker 1: it's a harmless prank, right? Oh, noises at night and stuff.
55:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
55:03
Speaker 1: And then you have people who have been locked up
55:06
Speaker 1: in a pandemic for how long? We all know people
55:08
Speaker 1: do dumb things in a pandemic.
55:10
Speaker 2: It changes the world. Yeah.
55:11
Speaker 1: So they've been locked up in their convent for how long?
55:15
Speaker 1: Now there's tales of ghost stories and all this sort
55:17
Speaker 1: of stuff. They're getting stir crazy. They're maybe experiencing light
55:21
Speaker 1: symptoms of even being sick from this plague themselves.
55:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
55:25
Speaker 1: Attributing it maybe to a possession. They go through an
55:28
Speaker 1: exorcist and a priest sees someone there doing something he
55:32
Speaker 1: doesn't like. It's cold in here. Why are you sweating?
55:34
Speaker 1: Because she's got a fever and there's a plague. That's why.
55:37
Speaker 1: But he attributes it to being demonic possession. And he
55:39
Speaker 1: tells her over hours of an exorcist spraying her with
55:42
Speaker 1: holy water, you're possessed, you're possessed. She leaves being a
55:47
Speaker 1: religious individual thinking she is. And it goes on to
55:51
Speaker 1: the next. And now you have a whole new epidemic happening.
55:54
Speaker 1: Of people not only being sick and locked up and
55:57
Speaker 1: going stir crazy, but now you have people believing what
56:00
Speaker 1: they're being told they are.
56:02
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and okay, I, I don't know how to
56:05
Speaker 2: word this, but the one guy who lost his life
56:09
Speaker 2: and he was like sleeping around a bit when he
56:13
Speaker 2: wasn't supposed to. So he was almost like forbidden fruit.
56:20
Speaker 2: So then I'm like, well, are these nuns fantasizing about that?
56:23
Speaker 2: In a sense.
56:24
Speaker 1: They could be.
56:25
Speaker 2: Right? Because the one was having, you know, unwanted sexual fantasies,
56:31
Speaker 2: she said.
56:31
Speaker 1: Or whatever. But there was others who were having some
56:34
Speaker 1: profane situations as well, exposing themselves or saying things to
56:38
Speaker 1: men in the area. But it could be attributed to
56:40
Speaker 1: the same sort of thing. celibacy is part of their religion.
56:44
Speaker 1: It's what they need to be doing. And so if
56:46
Speaker 1: you're being locked up for extended periods, you're sick, the
56:48
Speaker 1: world is going through some extreme turmoil. You're seeing these
56:51
Speaker 1: alleged hauntings and stuff around you. And you see this
56:54
Speaker 1: one priest who's really good looking and apparently he's a
56:56
Speaker 1: little on the slutty side and you're going stir crazy
56:59
Speaker 1: over it all. Who knows what you're going to do?
57:00
Speaker 1: People do dumb shit all the time. Yeah.
57:03
Speaker 3: Okay.
57:04
Speaker 2: And I also shared something recently that I'm like this
57:07
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't totally relate, but a little bit.
57:10
Speaker 2: And it was, isn't it interesting how we were taught
57:12
Speaker 2: to fear the witches, but not the men who burned them? Oh, yeah.
57:16
Speaker 2: And yeah, when I saw that, I was like, damn.
57:20
Speaker 1: Hundred percent.
57:23
Speaker 3: Yeah.
57:23
Speaker 2: I don't know. That just made me sit back and
57:26
Speaker 2: be like, holy shit.
57:28
Speaker 4: Yeah.
57:28
Speaker 2: For a hot minute there.
57:29
Speaker 1: Exactly.
57:30
Speaker 2: And there was some things in here that I was like, well,
57:32
Speaker 2: what are they doing? Like, what are they actually doing?
57:35
Speaker 2: This isn't right. You know? And the scary people are
57:39
Speaker 2: the ones that have the power and are freaking murdering,
57:45
Speaker 2: killing people or whatever.
57:46
Speaker 1: They're making it up as they go and they say,
57:48
Speaker 1: it's for your benefit.
57:49
Speaker 4: Yeah.
57:50
Speaker 2: Or this is going to stop this from happening.
57:53
Speaker 1: Well, exactly. And part of the argument is Urbane was
57:56
Speaker 1: opposing some of this demolition of the walls and all
57:59
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, the defenses. This other guy was
58:02
Speaker 1: for it. And so he's– as so the alleged story goes,
58:08
Speaker 1: actually trying to get Urbane removed from the situation so
58:12
Speaker 1: they can go through with all his political stuff. So instead,
58:14
Speaker 1: he's telling people, he's possessing you all. We have to
58:18
Speaker 1: kill him to help you.
58:20
Speaker 2: Because he has ulterior motives.
58:22
Speaker 1: When really, there is no possession. He's just trying to
58:27
Speaker 1: kill him to remove him from the situation. I mean,
58:29
Speaker 1: so the theory goes.
58:31
Speaker 2: Yeah.
58:31
Speaker 1: Which I kind of believe. If I'm honest, that's where
58:34
Speaker 1: my head goes, but.
58:35
Speaker 2: Well, it's not super farfetched and we even have to
58:38
Speaker 2: deal with shit like this today.
58:39
Speaker 1: So yeah, we do. Unfortunately.
58:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. Very interesting though.
58:43
Speaker 4: Yeah.
58:44
Speaker 1: So I thought that'd be a good case to get
58:46
Speaker 1: us going with spooky season being that it's officially October.
58:50
Speaker 1: Hopefully you guys, um, buy your Halloween candy early and
58:54
Speaker 1: have enough.
58:55
Speaker 2: Don't hold on. Hold on.
58:57
Speaker 1: I'm wishing people something here. I hope you guys buy
58:59
Speaker 1: your Halloween candy early and I wish you the restraint
59:04
Speaker 1: to have a couple pieces to enjoy and that's it.
59:07
Speaker 2: The restraint that you don't have.
59:10
Speaker 1: That I don't have. I'm saying they do.
59:12
Speaker 2: I'm saying talking to you. I guess you can't tell
59:14
Speaker 2: that I'm staring at you, but I bought like a
59:17
Speaker 2: box of candy at the beginning of the weekend. It
59:20
Speaker 2: is gone.
59:21
Speaker 1: Oh, it was so good. My stomach was not happy.
59:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was not good. So I don't think we're
59:26
Speaker 2: going to be buying anymore at any time soon.
59:30
Speaker 1: And if you do the same, I'm not going to
59:32
Speaker 1: judge you. I will high five you, honestly. Live your
59:35
Speaker 1: best life. It's spooky season. Live accordingly. Thank you guys
59:38
Speaker 1: for being here. You are incredible and amazing. We got
59:41
Speaker 1: a lot of cool stuff coming this month, especially Halloween
59:44
Speaker 1: week when it's seven straight days of spooky, scary, true crimey,
59:49
Speaker 1: awesome stories leading up to Halloween day. It's going to
59:53
Speaker 1: be a great event. This is what our sixth annual
59:55
Speaker 1: Halloween week at this point.
59:57
Speaker 2: Isn't that wild?
59:58
Speaker 1: It's crazy. So I'm super pumped. Hopefully you guys are too.
1:00:02
Speaker 1: And until next time.
1:00:04
Speaker 2: Stay wicked.
1:01:15
Speaker 3: Thank you.