Latest / Real State / Inside Virginia’s Child Welfare Reforms, with Delegate Katrina Callsen

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Inside Virginia’s Child Welfare Reforms, with Delegate Katrina Callsen · Real State

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And so when you know that that's what can happen to a child, you start becoming a lot more proactive
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about trying to find loving connections, reasonable connections that will better serve the child in state.
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This is Real State, a podcast from CSG South. Join us as we talk with policymakers and public leaders
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shaping state-level decisions across the South and explore how ideas move from policy
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to real impact.
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Hello and welcome to Real State. I'm your host, Lindsey Gray. In the South, states are taking a
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closer look at how child welfare systems can better support children, strengthen families,
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and reduce unnecessary disruption in young lives. In the Commonwealth of Virginia,
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that conversation has included a growing focus on kinship care, foster care policy, school stability
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for children in care, and access to original birth records for adult adoptees. Our guest today,
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delegate Katrina Callsen, was elected to the Virginia House of Delegates in 2023.
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And in that time, she has been actively engaged in legislation related to child welfare,
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including kinship placement, foster care policy, and adoptee rights. Delegate Carlson, thank you
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for being with us today. My pleasure, thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk about the work
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and with the Department of Social Services. Absolutely. So before we get into specific legislation,
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I want to start with your perspective as both a policy maker and a practitioner in this space.
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So from your perspective, what does a child welfare system get right when it's truly centered
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on the best interests of children and families? Yeah, so probably the easiest answer is it has to be
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focused on children. It really does. Children should be the primary focus. The state code should
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reflect that the best interest of the child is a primary focus, and then everything should be
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crafted around that. The second thing I would say would be that it should be preventative in nature.
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It should be about allowing families and children in those who are struggling access to services
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before foster care becomes necessary. That makes sense on basically every level because it's
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doing right by the child. It's minimizing disruptions, and it's actually also more cost-effective
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to provide services before a child enters into foster care. So preventative. And then the last
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bit is that once the court or the state does get involved, any approach should be multi-disciplinary.
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You really have to bring in stakeholders from all across from all areas of the child's life
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if you want the best outcomes for children. And how has your work as a foster care attorney
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shaped the way you think about prevention, family stability, the role of the state when children
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are at risk? You know, it has provided me the perspective of what these cases look like day to day.
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It has given me so many stories and examples to draw from, and it has really cemented in my brain
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just through experience how flexible the system has to be to really serve children well.
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That's actually what drove some of my barrier crime work because, for example, just there
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I have been in cases where a child has no viable placement option left to go to. I mean, at that
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point, you know, we're debating whether or not we send a child to Utah, which has different
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regulations around group homes to a group home where she would be, you know, completely severed from her
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her from her family, from her connections, from her roots because that was all that was available
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to us. And so when you know that that's what can happen to a child, you start becoming a lot more
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proactive about trying to find loving connections, reasonable connections that will better serve the
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child in state. And so just having stories to draw from, it's really got in my work,
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getting to see it, to feel it, to hear it. I mean, I've had a child that when she aged out of foster
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care, she said that she had been foster care for years of her life. She was going to take some
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of that time back and she read us a letter. It was incredibly powerful and poignant about
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what it looks like from a child's perspective to be in foster care, things that I had not thought of,
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but I got to hear it from her. So has it shaped my work in all different kinds of ways? But I would say
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mainly by having those stories and bringing them with me and knowing what it looks like when these
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laws go into effect. Man, absolutely. I mean, that real world experience on such a complex issue,
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as you mentioned, I mean, it's layered and it's emotional and it can really truly make or break
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a child in so many ways and really the family structure. So with that real world experience,
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that is clearly informed your work in the general assembly, particularly around kinship care.
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In 2024, Virginia enacted legislation, you sponsored. Yeah. It's my understanding as a
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freshman legislator, this was pretty also pretty impressive, but Virginia enacted legislation,
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you sponsored to establish a parental child safety placement program, which supports placing children
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with relatives or trusted adults and helps prevent unnecessary entry into the foster care system.
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And so what problems were you trying to solve with that legislation? Just what were you seeing in
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the system at that time? And why did kinship care rise to the top as a policy priority for you and
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your fellow legislators? Yeah. Well, first, kudos to you for getting the name right because one of
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the hardest parts about working that bill is there were so many stakeholders in the name of what we
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were calling it kept changing and we ended up on a pretty lengthy parental child safety placement
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program. So good for you for getting that part. Yeah. So where did that come from? First, it came from
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data. So anyone who's listening, who's thinking about tackling things in their state, I would
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strongly suggest to start with that. There are stakeholders that helped collect that data almost
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on every bill that I've cared with the assessor or someone who has collected data before that bill is
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brought to the general assembly. So in Virginia, and I actually think there's quite a few other
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southern states that that that follow this trend, we had a 14% placement rate of children with
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kinship care. The national average is 35%. And it's important. The reason that that's a problematic
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statistic is because when you place a child with kin and is a real quick aside, just technical,
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kinship placement care also includes trusted friends because it's really just about having
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familiarity and not making a child have to go into a completely foreign situation. So it also includes
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what we call fictive kin. So placing children with fictive kin are with kinship placements
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results and better outcomes. I mean, there's no, it's not, you know, not, it's not fail proof. There
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are always exceptions. It's always you got to assess on the ground, but by large, the data shows over
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and over again that when you are placed with someone you know, you have better long term outcomes.
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Less behavioral challenges, less disruption to your school and family life, more better emotional
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well-being. And ultimately, one of the problems with the foster care world is that children who have
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these adverse childhood experiences often tend to repeat the pattern. And so the more we can do
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to break the pattern, the better. So that's why I that's why we wanted to tackle it because we have
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this low kinship placement. What the program does and what it acknowledges is that oftentimes before,
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oftentimes before a child enters into foster care, there are people available to take care of that
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child as like kind of a temporary safe placement, but they are unable to do so because they cannot
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afford or access the services they would need to care for the child. And it created this kind of
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weird incentive sometimes that families have to actually let the child enter into foster care
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just so that they could access the therapy, all the things that they need for that child to be
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taking care of. And so this bill makes it so that family members and can can and friends,
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victim can can access services before entering into foster care. There's a lot of random elements that go
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along with that. There's some legal issues, but it was it was a lot to work the bill because there's
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a lot that that looks like. Like when would we decide that foster care is imminent? Who's making
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that determination? How much do we want to be outside of the court process? Because the court
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process is protective in some ways. But ultimately, going back to the first answer, I just have so many
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stories I know of where we have we do safety plans. That's what we do typically before foster care
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placement. I have seen safety plans that are scribbled on the back of an napkin that are signed by
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parents who are based in in the hospital and they're faced with really dire consequences either
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sign or don't. And it's back of an napkin. So any work we can do to kind of formalize what it looks
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like pre foster care and what's available to you. I felt like was a good tool for my state.
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So that's who we did. Absolutely. I mean, it sounds incredible. And to your point, these are
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measures and that they can access before entering the foster care system. And I can only imagine that
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that is very helpful to any child who hasn't had anything close to those resources prior to that
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that moment, and hopefully to your earlier point, preventative. So and you kind of answered this
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with the kinship statistic in that data. But when children are placed with relatives instead of
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entering to traditional foster care, what difference do you see in the outcome for those children
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and families? Are there specific stats you're looking at that measure the success of this change?
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So is it just that kinship stat and hoping that it gets closer to the national average or are there
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other data points that you all are looking at that consider this change a success just even if
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it's just moving the needle one step closer? Yeah, so that's a great question.
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When and it's been two years since I've done the bill, we just come out of a session with 20 other
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bills. So I'm trying to remember fully, but I am almost positive. There is a reporting aspect of this
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beyond positive. I'm sure there's a reporting aspect. I would tell you that probably the most
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baseline stat we're going to be looking at is to make sure that we get higher kinship placement.
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I can tell you the department that I worked for the Charlottesville department of social services
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actually had one of the highest kinship the year I was there had the highest kinship I was there
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for five years, but I just know at least one year want to be accurate with my stuff that I'm saying
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here. We had the highest kinship placement in the state, which goes to show that even without
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the legislation, it is possible for local departments with social services to prioritize kinship
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placement. So what I'm hoping this legislation does is show that that should be a priority of all
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of our departments. And I'd love I wish I would love to connect with other state legislators about
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how their states do it on Virginia just so people know is is a hybrid system where we have a
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centralized department of social services, but it does not have a lot of a lot of authority. In fact,
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that's the bill I had this year about giving them oversight authority and then we basically have
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you know dozens and dozens and dozens of local departments of social services and they can have
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very disparate treatment of children they can handle it very differently. And now I'm giving
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you really long answers you can interrupt me whenever you want. No, I love it this. I think that this
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is a complex issue with a lot of layers and I have an opportunity of later this year for legislators
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to get together to actually share this information that I'll talk about before we get off the
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podcast, but as that policy is implemented across Virginia, what does success look like for the
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department of social services and those local levels that you just referenced? Are they adopting this?
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Or um, which is are you seeing that success? Are they more apt to thinking about this as a solution
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that maybe they weren't prior? Yes, I am seeing it. Although I will say it's anecdotal for me at this
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point because I've not looked at, I've not looked at the report, but what I have heard is directly from
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departments of social services about their gratitude for being able to use those funds,
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I mean get funds and services into families that are struggling before foster care. I've also heard
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feedback about some implementation pieces. One thing is when we carried our, when we carried this
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legislation, we bumped up the regulatory process. Usually there's like a two-year review process where
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the department can really weigh in on all the little nitty-gritty pieces and what it's going to look like.
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The very, on the ground like you know, if we have this form, how do we get it here in the time frame?
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So some of those pieces are still being worked out, but success for me is fewer kids in foster care
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would be the ultimate, the kids that are in foster care, higher placement and kinship foster care.
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I know we're going to have so much data, more data available by having these formalized placement
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program plans because those safety plans that I mentioned, having to have introduced a bunch of them
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in court as evidence, they're really highly informal. Like I said, the back of an app can, sometimes
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like not even fully signed, so I'm, you're pushing me a little bit to say I need to dig back in and
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look at how it's going, but yeah, let's, I would say less kids in foster care would be the number
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one pre-month goal, and then more in kinship placement if they are in foster care.
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And then kinship care is about more than placement. It's about that stability in everyday life.
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So you also supported legislation to help children in foster care and kinship care remain in
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their same schools and reduce barriers for caregivers managing school enrollment. So why school
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continuity such a critical part of the child welfare conversation?
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Yeah, so that was a little like personal baby bill because I also was on school board when I was
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doing the foster care work and I had a case. I had a case where I realized that the we, Virginia,
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we did some pretty big legislation in 2016. So we do protect children when they're
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entering into foster care. We have kind of a process for how the child can either stay in the
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school they're at right now or transition to the school of where they're going to be in foster care.
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But we don't have it when they exit foster care. And I actually had two cases, but one in particular
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that's coming to mind, we kept the child in foster care so that they could remain in their school.
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So we kept them for like three months longer in foster care just that they could finish out an
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important transition year in their schooling. And that felt kind of preventable silly what you know,
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you don't want to keep kids in foster care day longer than they have to be. You want them back
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with their family. And it was because we found out that although we protect kids in the front end,
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we don't protect them on the back end. And so that's what the bill did that again data. So if a child
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every time a child has to switch schools, it correlates to worse educational outcomes for them.
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And in fact, children in foster care who have one just one fewer placement per year, it doubles their
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chance of graduating from high school. That was a stat from they did a study of a thousand over a thousand
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foster care youths two years ago, but I mean, that's pretty powerful. And you want to keep kids,
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you want to have them have continuity of education for all kinds of reasons also just their
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educational attainment. And like if you're learning a concept, you don't want to have to switch schools
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while you're also switching families and homes and all of those things. Absolutely. And I did not,
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this is an aspect that I have never thought about with the child welfare system. And the impacts
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that go along with that. So thank you for pushing that baby bill through as you called it.
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Yeah. And real quick, if I can add, there are some federal, there's some federal rules that came
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about maybe with like the every child to see some of this can be a little gray area. I'm not an
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expert on federal law, but there are federal things that kind of push the Virginia changes, but I
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would encourage legislators to look in and see how your state has interpreted it. If you are
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allowing children options when they exit foster care, it's a great way to really protect them.
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That's great advice. What do you wish more people understood about the impact of repeated
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disruptions on a child's development and long term outcomes? If you just had a magic one and
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everybody could just understand this thing before you start pushing through policy, what would it be?
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Yeah, I think people probably get it at a base level. I think we can all envision what it looks like
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to have transition in your life. I think I remember this is not that point yet, but I remember
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meeting readers digest article years ago. Remember readers digest without using a lot of those things.
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We're not showing our age at all. Yeah, I remember when it had like the table of contents on the
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front of which I loved and then they changed out of like the whole things changed. They were saying how
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certain life stressors, no matter whether they're positive even, positive changes,
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the mirror change itself increases your stress level. So whether it's moving to a new house,
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even if you want to move to the new house, it's stressful. I think we all get that at a base level.
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So now imagine that as a kid where every change is fraught with uncertainty and with no
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permanency in the end. And you can just imagine. I mean, you imagine the damage that that can do
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on a very practical level. I don't, one thing I cannot speak from and having listened to so many foster
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children share their own story. I don't feel capable of speaking to their experience, but I have listened
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and I've heard them and I believe them. How disruptive and terrible it can be. I remember I'm a military
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brat. I moved to schools all the time. I remember in math, particular like going into a new classroom,
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and I love math, but being like, wait, what, what are we doing? Because if you just don't even,
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the curriculum doesn't line up, you lose like whole sections of your math curriculum. So that's a very
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basic thing, but these foster children have shared so much more that they're moving. They're sports team
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participation, the school plays that they were in, the hopes and desires they had for joining clubs,
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the yearbooks they were working on, and you know, all of those things. And those are the kids that are
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really striving and trying to do things, things about, think about the kids that already like, you know what,
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doesn't matter. I'm checked out. Yeah. Even your bus stop changing. I mean, it's something that,
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that what seems simple is a whole different way of thinking about that's incredible and you're right.
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The stress is that I can only imagine you go through before you've fully evolved in all your,
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in your emotions and your frontal lobe and all the things that go along the fat and you're doing
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with adult things when you're a child. So this session, your work has continued to focus on how
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the system functions in practice, especially who is able to step in and provide care. So during the
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2026 session that just ended a week ago, two weeks ago, a whole no time. You've been evolved in
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legislation addressing eligibility barriers and pathways for kinship and foster placement,
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including how the system evaluates potential caregivers. So what gaps or challenges in the system
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led you to focus on these types of policy changes this year? Yeah. So barrier crime work for
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for placement has been a kind of ongoing thing. It started in 2024. I took some things off of our
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barrier crime list. Virginia has a barrier crime list that's much more extensive than the federal
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lead required barrier crimes. Note to state legislators, we can't do anything with the federal
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barrier crimes, but many of our states go above and beyond and it hasn't always been reviewed in recent
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years. So the Virginia one is extensive and includes things on there that honestly with a lot of
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times with time restrictions that don't make sense. So I mean, it could be a decade plus that you've
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had something that don't have any bearing on whether or not you're a viable placement option right
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now. And beyond that, you kind of got away things. So even if like, let's say, I mean, one of the,
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I'll be really frank, one of the barrier crimes we have in Virginia is hunting without a license.
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So yes, if you were hunting without a license, that can be a barrier crime that prevents you
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for being a placement for a child. So if you can imagine the situation where you have a child
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that it's like you are either going to go live with a strange family in a strange town potentially,
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sometimes in another state, but that's rare, or you could stay with like your grandfather,
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but he has a hunting without a license crime. Well, that just that's silly. And so the, I work to get
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rid of some of the barrier crimes that we felt were a little bit outdated. And in this year,
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I work to create a barrier crime waiver process. All of these, all of this foster care legislation,
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by the way, has been extremely bipartisan, has been across the aisle. I've worked with Republicans,
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I'm Democrat, worked across the aisle, and, and I think people get it. And even the barrier crime waiver,
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it was almost unanimous because one thing that people have to remember if they start feeling a
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little queasy about having the waiver, no matter what we don't waive the federal barrier crimes,
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but if they start feeling a way about it, you just have to remember that we already rely on our
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departments of social services to do all kinds of safety assessment. And in some ways,
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when a child is in foster care, they're already subject to some of the highest level of oversight.
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They're going to have in their life. They have monthly family partnership meetings with a variety of
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adults. They have court, you know, every three months and four months and five months with the court
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overlooking it. So there's just so many safety checks. And if we're trusting our social workers to
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make those assessments about what to do, we probably can trust them when they are saying, here's a
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viable good placement that is going to serve this child and we need a barrier crime waiver. So that's
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why I did that work. I'm excited about that one. And you are dropping some great information for any
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legislator to look at. And to your point, this issue I've talked with both Democrats and Republicans
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from multiple states and even just little nuggets of where to start looking. You are dropping those
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nuggets today. So thank you. Other issue that has gained attention this session is access to
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information for adult adoptees. So this session, you have been busy at work. Legislation, you
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sponsored legislation for adult adoptees to have access to their original birth records. And
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it has advanced through the general assembly and is now awaiting action from the governor. So
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what is the core policy principle behind giving adult adoptees access to their original vital records?
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That bill was my passion bill this year. I had been thinking about it for a long time. Found out
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when I got elected that there was actually a Republican who had been carrying the bill for a couple
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years, but it hadn't been making it past the finish line. And ultimately this year working with him,
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I took it over and together we kind of brought our shared passion and we were able to get it passed.
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The reason it's important to me and was important to me, my dad is adopted. And I remember
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years ago actually when I was a child wanting to know where he was from and this is going to sound
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crazy, but it's just the truth of Virginia. Wanting some more information about his race, we weren't
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actually even sure what his race was. And he was told at that time he would have to seek out some
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experts to provide opinions on why he needed access to it. And then we were going to have to go to court,
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we have to get a lawyer. And he didn't even really, he wasn't that interested. It was mainly like,
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you know me and the rest of the family. So he's like, he wasn't going to do it. And that just felt
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wrong to me back then. It felt wrong to be denied basic information about who you are as a person.
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Where even sometimes where you're born. I heard throughout carrying the bills, I heard stories that
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that it made legislators cry when they were talking about, I mean they were terrible, but just like
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heart-wrenching stories of people who didn't know that they were of Jewish background. People who
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whose mothers thought that they would have the information if they needed, they didn't know because
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the way that Virginia law works, it actually is not the birth mother that seals the records. It's not
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the child that seals the records. It's the adopted parents who get to choose to seal it. And many of
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them don't even realize they didn't realize that they were sealing it. And so this bill, I basically
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look at as a human rights bill. It's actually not even about finding your family members because the
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reality of DNA testing means that almost anybody who wants to find their family can find it right now.
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That I actually found my biological grandparents. I got to connect to both of them. I got to call them.
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And I got to hear my grandmother tell my dad that she loved them on the very first call.
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I got to hear a story about how in 1966 Virginia, which when my dad was born, he is mixed race.
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Interracial marriage was illegal. And at that time, the best interest of the child for many mothers,
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if you were on wed, for a variety of reasons, they were told that the best course of action for their
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child was to put them up for adoption. And then those records were sealed and there was never a way
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for them to connect again. And so the goal of this bill is to me, it's just a restoration of human
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rights and understanding who you are. There have been many states that have opened up the records.
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They have not had any adverse effects that people are worried about. It ended up being a strong
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bipartisan bill. I'm hopeful that it will be signed. I wish I'd brought this letter to share with you.
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I, at the end of session, the Department of Vital Records, which didn't take a position on the bill,
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they came by my office and they said we don't take a position on the bill, but we've had this letter
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for several years and we want you to read it. And I read it. It was from a man. He wrote it years ago,
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years before I carried the bill. And he just shared, like, firm his heart, the story of what it's like
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for the state to deny him knowledge about who he is. And he had no way to access it. And as he was
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approaching the end of his life, if they could please just let him do it. And this is just your
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birth certificate. Like everyone deserves to know their birth certificate. You're not like being,
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you know, I don't know. And it's only for adults just to be clear. So there's some protections when
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things are new and fresh and a child is being put up for adoption. And that's why I think you saw that
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bipartisan support for this. And it affected so many people. And to your point, they should not be
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blocked from knowing who they are. And do you think that's why this issue gained momentum now instead
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of prior is because it was bipartisan? And what do you hope Virginia gets right in implementation
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if the measure becomes law? Yeah. So I do think it gained traction because more and more stories
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were coming out. One of the very neat things about the bill is realizing the amount of connections
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that people have to adoption. So it ended up going through kind of a roller coaster on the
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Senate floor. It passed and then was moved for reconsideration. And so it had to do another day.
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And then the next day it just filled my heart because people started standing up to speech the bill
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and sharing like they had a sibling that was adopted. They had a daughter who was adopted. They had
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and they understood and wanted those people to have access to everything that they themselves had.
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And so yes, I do think it became more broadly bipartisan because more people started sharing
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their stories. Also when I left the committee meeting, I had a lobbyist come over and tell me
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he's like, I was going to get in the line and testify once they hear about the bill and they
28:21
understand what it means and what it looks like. And it's just a human rights issue. They start
28:25
speaking up. And then I forgot the second part. It passed broadly bipartisan. Oh implementation. I think
28:32
well, the people have been advocates for so long. We do want to sign in which so I think it's just
28:36
letting people know about the law change and that they can seek this out if they want.
28:39
Yeah, it's up to them. It's in their hand. They can open the door if they want. They can keep it closed if
28:44
they want, but it still gives them the control of what they like to do. So stepping back from
28:54
individual policies because we could probably keep listing them off. You've been busy.
28:59
But I want to look at a broader landscape of this topic. So across Virginia, there has been
29:05
meaningful progress in areas like kinship care and policy attention to family-centered approaches,
29:11
as we've talked a lot about. While conversations continue around consistency, access to services,
29:19
and system responsiveness. And today you've shared where Virginia is leading and child welfare policy.
29:28
Where do you see the greatest opportunities for improvement moving forward?
29:31
That's a hard one for me to answer. I actually am not going to lie. I texted my contact
29:37
the DSS and the children on Spudsman, which states have not started doing a children's
29:42
on Spudsman. That's a great initial step to start getting some of that data about what's going on
29:47
and what the process is looking like for families. Because I was hoping they'd give me really poignant
29:52
answers that I could share with everyone. But since session is over, rightfully so they're ignoring
29:57
me right now. So I wanted to share their professional level of what they're seeing. I think for me,
30:05
I'm probably going to rely on many of the things you said when you are answering the question. So
30:09
I think the next horizon for Virginia is doing more work on the preventative piece and more work
30:16
on the consistency piece. You mentioned consistency when you were saying it. That is one piece that is
30:21
tied to better outcomes for children and for families. And in Virginia, because of the way we
30:26
break up our system, I think there's still some work to do there. I passed a pretty big bill this year
30:31
about along with my colleagues, we broke it into pieces. So we all had pieces altogether. It was a
30:36
big bill about getting a centralized intake system about making it so that there is an ability
30:41
for the state to step in when things are not, when outcomes are not great for children.
30:45
And so I think the next few years is probably going to be shoring up that kind of consistency.
30:51
It was one of the hardest things for me to understand when I joined an I-DU-DSS work because I was
30:56
like, wait, this isn't how it's done. That's not what I've seen. And you literally have to hear the
31:00
stories of no, it's done very, very, very differently in this part of Virginia. So working for more
31:07
consistent system. Yeah, I'm sure that's half the battle for a lot of our states as well.
31:13
Well, I'm glad you're staying the course with this great work. These are questions many states
31:21
across the South are asking as well. C-S-G South is hosting a policy masterclass on child welfare
31:27
later this year from August 31st to September 2nd. If I could do a quick plug for that. It's in
31:32
partnership with Casey Family Programs because we just know this issue is complex. It's layered.
31:38
It involves you do digital system. It involves the executive branch and the legislative branch.
31:43
And of course it involves an impact families and children. So we are doing a deep dive on child
31:51
welfare and later this year. So for other Southern states looking at similar reforms. What lessons
31:58
from Virginia's experience would you highlight? I think it's sequential how some of this has come
32:07
about because we are making major DSS reforms and I'm sure other states are as well. So I think
32:11
I'd be curious. Maybe I'll be able to be a part of this masterclass. I'm curious.
32:16
I'm curious where they are in the process because just like I mentioned the children's arms
32:22
butsments for example that's like a good first start piece. Before even that I don't know where
32:27
states are with just even forms. This is going to sound crazy but the having uniformed forms for foster
32:34
care work and DSS work is actually incredibly impactful and helps create a system that people
32:40
understand better. When I was in my office we have these forms but I know just a few years prior
32:46
basically it was like handwritten out petitions for every child, every abuse neck, the neglect claim.
32:52
There's work that comes. So it's all what I guess what I'm saying is there's somewhere
32:56
along the line there's always improvements to be made. So figure out where your states add and
33:01
then look to other states and start working your way up. I mean I know for example Connecticut has a
33:07
program right now that I'm looking at where they have really standardized their services that I
33:13
you know so find where you are in the step and then look to other states and grow from there.
33:16
It does seem like this is one of those matters where incremental steps is okay and that's what's
33:22
going to move the needle because it's so complex and it's definitely not one session or one bill
33:28
that's going to solve this topic. So thank you. Before we close I'd like to end with a question we
33:37
ask all of our guests. What is the best piece of professional advice you've ever received and how
33:43
does it shape the way you approach your work today? I'm so bad at picking like one or two things.
33:50
I'm like a gray area person I guess I have the answers like it depends on my mood. I will land on
33:58
when I very very very first got into politics. I was running for school board. I was knock indoors.
34:05
I was very passionate about a specific issue is the opportunity gap for children and I had access
34:13
to a consultant, a media consultant and I remember telling her about these conversations that I
34:22
was having and how people were angry about certain things but like the things didn't really matter
34:26
to me. It was more about the opportunity gap that I didn't want to sit and talk about like classroom
34:30
decor or anything like that and she gave me this advice that said when people are angry you should listen.
34:36
That was it in one line when people are angry you should listen and the more work you can do to not
34:43
respond defensively to clear your head and to listen and to understand that where there's anger
34:52
there's a reason and finding that that reason and being able to speak to it will get you closer to
34:58
what you want than not and that has stuck with me because I've had to deal with one a lot of angry people
35:04
but to it just like it diffuses it in you and it helps you bring you to someone else's viewpoint
35:14
a little bit easier while still staying true to yourself so when people are angry it's not
35:20
necessarily a terrible thing listen. That is so short and sweet but profound and that's why I was like
35:27
let me think about that let me listen to that really couldn't because that is so good.
35:31
Yeah and not listen like follow everything they say but like don't just absorb.
35:36
Throw away the side don't be dismissive. Yeah don't react just listen. Yeah just sit in it for a minute
35:42
and listen that's good it's real good. Well delicate Carlson thank you for joining us and for sharing
35:49
your perspective on an issue that has such a meaningful and truly lifelong impact on children
35:55
and families across Virginia and the South and being such a great ambassador for this topic and
36:02
hopefully moving the needle not only in your own state but across our region. I really appreciate
36:07
you being here today. It was my pleasure I'm looking forward to hopefully at a future conference
36:13
being able to talk to people about a DSS legislation and learn from the other states around me
36:17
and I appreciate you taking the time to do a deep dive into the work in Virginia.
36:21
Absolutely I'd love to see you there at the Policy Masterclass later this year I'll get in touch
36:26
with you after this so to our listeners thank you for tuning in to real estate for more conversations
36:32
like this and more about our fall policy master classes visit cishysouth.org I'm Lindsey Gray
36:39
let's keep it real. Thank you for joining us today on real estate where we keep it real about what
36:47
really matters.