Latest / Goodlife Church Formation Podcast / Secular Humanistic Atheism
Transcript
- Jack O'Brien: Well, welcome back, another episode of the Good Life Formation Podcast. Are you okay, Rebecca? Bex: Ha ha like yes on okay. DC: Just check, just just just how's the pulse? How you doing? Is everything okay? Why? Why would you be cranky with me? I'm pure as the driven snow. I'm an angel. Jack O'Brien: ⁓ good. Bex: Crank cranky with my husband. Jack O'Brien: ⁓ look, I am just glad you've graced us with your presence becs. It's been a while. DC: Yeah. Yeah, welcome back. Bex: I'm back on the planet. I can't remember why I missed the last ones, but thank you, appreciate it. DC: Well Jack, I look Jack O'Brien: Something something about something about like a an over fifties European river cruise? Bex: We've done them since then. We've done a couple since then, thank you very much. Remember you've been mocking my Buddha. Jack O'Brien: Okay. DC: And then you missed out on you missed out on last week because you were preparing to preach a message or something. But I'm I'm just look, maybe something, Jack, it's got something to do with the Knights winning, Rebecca Connett being in our presence. I don't know. How d can we can we get a correlation or causation connection there? Jack O'Brien: I'm sure we can. Maybe, maybe we can. ⁓ are you suggesting that she should leave this podcast, Dave, so that the nights win next week? DC: I hadn't thought of it that way, Jack. I was thinking hopefully th her presence equaled them winning. Bex: Well I preached yes I preached yesterday and they won and I'm preaching this Sunday. So maybe that means they'll win this week. Jack O'Brien: Maybe. Okay, well we'll take that. Dave, glad to have you, Grace is with your presence. The light is working. The light's working. It's back. DC: Yeah, I I I killed it last one. I whacked it so hard. You were preaching so well, Jack. You were there were so many truth bombs coming out that I was flinging my arms around and whack. Actually, I've got to get a a better light bulb in there. But that's all right. We've made something work. Jack O'Brien: ⁓ yes we do. ⁓ okay, well, Bex let's let's go for it. You you kicked us off with the competing kingdoms sermon series yesterday. Give yourself a give yourself a score out of nine. Bex: I'm not giving myself a score. Out of nine, that's weird. I can never score myself. It's so hard. You walk you get off the platform and you're like, that was terrible. Every time. So I don't know. Jack O'Brien: Yeah, yeah, come on. Dave, do you do you score yourself? Do you do you get off the platform and assume it was terri? I d I don't reck I do not believe that Dave gets off the platform and goes, that was terrible. I would say more often than not, Dave gets off the platform and goes, I was pretty good, wasn't I? DC: ⁓ Jack, I definitely am quite a ⁓ a clear critic of my preaching. So I want to improve. And especially if I'm doing that morning and then night, I try to re-go over it and work out what I can do to refine. and so, but that's my job for all of the goodbye preachers, is to try to do that refining process. ⁓ but I've I've got to I've gotta say, I've gotta say, Yeah, more often than not, I'm I'm I'm I'm thinking that was pretty good. Bex: Surprises no one. Jack O'Brien: Good. Surprised no. Okay, well Dave, ⁓ in that case, given that you've probably done it privately, ⁓ give Rebecca a score publicly. Out of for her preaching for her preaching, please. DC: I have I've done nothing but ⁓ praise her. And ⁓ part of the deal is not just that that's exactly what I thought, and here's the areas that you did well. and there was a little bit of refining for the night service just to change up a couple of things that we'll probably talk about in the podcast. ⁓ but they weren't bad things. It was just probably helping with a bit of clarity. ⁓ I but also had to combat Bex's, she came off thinking that was terrible. And I'm like, well, with the topic that you're picking, it's gonna be a spiritual fight. And also very hard when you're tackling the ⁓ you know the the atheistic secular postmodernism, you have to tell the history of very hard for people to be hooping and hollering and amen, Pastor Bex. And you kind of feel the vibe when people are with you that way. So I was like, A, you're not feeling great about how you went. B, you're in a spiritual battle. C, it's hard for people at A, man. You need to know Rebecca Connor. That was all time. And I have had so many messages from people ⁓ thanking ⁓ Amanda Miffset in Canberra's like, I can't believe I missed it. I want to be there for it. And she said she got by lunch, she got four text messages from people telling her how absolutely awesome it was. So I was like, if you're gonna score out of nine, I would say it was a 12. Bex: ⁓ babe. It's fine. Jack O'Brien: Well you gave me eleven last week. He gave me eleven last week, Bex. So there you go. You gave me eleven out of nine last week. Bex: ⁓ well as mate as long as I'm better than you, Jack, I'm okay. DC: Eleven out of what? Jack O'Brien: It it's interesting, right? And it'll be different strokes for different folks. But maybe Bex, I I feel like you'll you'll lean with me on this one. ⁓ there are there are some people who love the the hooper and holler and the amen. For me, in particular a ⁓ a style of topic that we touched on yesterday, the the weight of silence in the congregation can often speak louder than the amens. How do you feel about that? Bex: Yeah, I look, I I'm a pretty I'm pretty vocal when I'm in the crowd. ⁓ just as I every time I agree, I it comes out of my mouth. It's just my way of doing it. And I I get in trouble on the podcast for doing the same thing, don't I, Jack? I s got a text message our last podcast where he's like, Can you shut up? Okay, sorry. And it wasn't that I was talking too much. I just kept saying, Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ I I'm a big believer in that. but I do know that different Preaching styles, you know, there's an exhortation preaching style where you really are, you're like, yes, yes, yes. And then there's a teaching style, which is what my style naturally is, and people are thinking, and you can see the concentration face. ⁓ but but having said that, I didn't feel like people weren't with me yesterday. I actually I did actually feel, I mean, there was a couple of times people did clap and there were some amens and stuff. So I felt like they were with me. I probably just more felt the you feel in the spirit is probably what I was feeling more than anything else. ⁓ so yeah. There you go. But yeah, it definitely there's a there's a there's a concentration face that's very recognizable. It's hilarious. Jack O'Brien: Well it's interesting, right? Because sometimes we often we as I'll say we as preachers, I'll call you guys the preachers in this room. But ⁓ you know, you have preached this message to yourselves number a number of times. It's not the first time, but yet for those on the receiving end, it's the first time we're hearing it. And often in the midst of life going on and phones pinging and all sorts of things. And so you kind of gotta l allow room for the neurons to connect a little bit, particularly on something as weighty as yesterday, right? Okay. Bex: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. DC: We also just you gotta link concepts. You you're thinking through heavy concepts and seeing consequence that happens ⁓ like for yesterday, both with society, national, ⁓ you know, political, personal, in the church, ⁓ in your relationships. It was there was layers of of ⁓ of conviction and consequence. And so there were just concepts you had to kind of link and go, Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. Okay, what now? And Bex: Mm. DC: Yeah, the the ability for Bex to be able to link both the word of God, ⁓ the history and also the current time. ⁓ that was just a it was just a stunning ⁓ stunning way to communicate that message. Bex: I think I I'm very I'm very conscious sorry I've got delay here haven't we I'm I'm very conscious when I'm preparing that I'm delivering stuff that I'm familiar with but no one else is familiar with and sometimes they're they're ⁓ complicated topics they're not even simple topics and or concepts and so I have to go okay how do I deliver this in a way that is I'm breaking it down in a way that makes it simple to understand Jack O'Brien: Well Bix Go ahead. Bex: And that I can layer one thing onto the next and onto the next without losing people. ⁓ which, you know, hopefully I don't lose people as I go. But it's it's a it is the challenge I'm very aware of when I'm preparing is how do I make this? I don't want to get up there and use a whole lot of words that people are not familiar with and just, you know, assume they understand those words or know what know what I'm talking about. So I'm trying to make it as digestible as possible, even if it is a lot to take in. Jack O'Brien: Hmm. Okay. Well, on that note, give us the give us the clip notes. Give us the thirty second flyover of ⁓ what you touched on yesterday, and then we might unpack what what didn't make it. Bex: Mm. Probably the the two main if you're talking the two main things I was trying to communicate is one is that Christians have accepted this lie that w that we've got to stay out of the public square with our faith. We've got to stay out of politics with with you know, we can't bring our faith into politics. ⁓ the Christian the cr the church shouldn't speak out on particular issues and we've accepted that and that's a lie, ⁓ to the detriment of our nation and our society and to the detriment of the next generation. And the other thing was then going, okay, so what has happened, you know, as Christianity vacated that space, what, you know, what worldviews have moved into there? And and so yesterday I was speaking about secular humanism and ⁓ the damage that it has done and is doing to our nation. And I guess it was probably a a I guess a commissioning or a call to arms to go, okay, well let's let's not be the passive Christians that leave our nation in a worse position for our children and our great grand and our grandchildren. Let's ⁓ let's do something about it. And that that's actually our mandate, like the Great Commission is to actually do something about it. Jack O'Brien: Yeah no. Mm. Okay. What ⁓ what didn't make it? What did you leave out? Bex: So much. I mean, even you know, I think about the reason why Christians have taken this lie that we shouldn't be involved. And ⁓ I wanted to talk a little bit about the I guess the Anabaptists and and this whole concept, but I didn't cover that at all. But there is a there is a small portion of Christianity that ⁓ has become bigger and bigger and it's this whole idea of this group of people called the Anabaptists, which says they don't get involved in in society, they actually removed themselves and ⁓ so you know the Anabaptists they would never be involved in in the military, you'd never have them joining, you know, soldiers, Christian soldiers. ⁓ you'd they don't vote, all those kinds of things 'cause they're like, No, no, no, we're we're a different kingdom and so they don't actually have any involvement in our nation. And ⁓ I think that's really spread in the church and I s think it's spread to the chur to the detriment. ⁓ so that was one something I was I was like, ⁓ do I talk about that? Do I not? ⁓ Yeah, I was gonna also teach on postmodernism, but I just ran. I was like, There's no chance of me filling this in, so I'll do that next week with with progressive Christianity. But yeah, ⁓ no, the other thing I was going to talk about was the the whole idea of syncretism. Syncretism in the Old Testament was where the Christi the the people of God would worship God and the idols of culture at the same time. This whole tolerance thing. And ⁓ God actually addresses this all through the Old Testament, but in Revelation as well when he talks about this woman Jezebel and it's this whole idea of, you know, yeah, you can worship God, but you can also get along and do all these other things that belong to culture as well. And how God was like, no, no, that's not worship of me at all. And ⁓ I was gonna kinda go into that as well, but, you know, there's only so much you can fit into a message. Jack O'Brien: So okay, let me press on that Anabaptist piece or or the ⁓ you know, the the choice not to participate. There are a few things that came to mind as I was ⁓ listening to you yesterday, and you know, that a few different parts of James in particular stood out. And, you know, there's that verse at the end of James that says, Religion that our God and Father accepts as pure and faultless is this, to look after orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. Bex: Mm. Jack O'Brien: And so can't we just can't we just abstain? Like can't we just abstain from these kinds of things? Just keep oneself from being polluted. Is that not enough? DC: Jack, are you suggesting we can't walk and chew gum at the same time? Jack O'Brien: I'm I am being a little adversarial. ⁓ but I'm wondering, you know Okay No, actually so DC: Do you enjoy that? Do you enjoy being a little adversarial, Jack? Being the devil's advocate? Because I don't I don't think the devil needs an advocate at all, Jack. Bex: Don't distract from the conversation, Dave. Jack O'Brien: I am I'm not playing Ab Ab Devil's Advocate. I am playing ad just if it's for the point of an intellectual debate. Someone's gotta sit on the other side to test and steel man these things. We can't just straw man, we've got a steel man. So what Bex: You're right. DC: Thank you, Jack. That is really that you're doing a great job. Jack O'Brien: ⁓ thank you. So what I am suggesting, Dave, got nothing to do with doing two things at once. I'm actually wondering whether and Dave, I'll put this to you, ⁓ do we have a choice whether we participate in public spirituality and religion? Do we have a choice whether we participate in the political conversation in the public square or not? DC: Well, depends if you want to read your Bible and obey it, Jack. It's really what it comes down to. All through the Old Testament, you have got ⁓ kings, prophets, individuals speaking to government. ⁓ you've got Jesus that certainly did it, speaking into that situation. ⁓ John the Baptist, ⁓ he ended up losing his life because he actually spoke to that situation. Paul said, I appealed to Caesar. Why the flip would he appeal to Caesar, apart from the fact he wanted Caesar? An audience with Caesar. This is all about engaging in community, engaging in politics. And when we have Christians that disengage, it's the silencing of the lambs of God who actually need to be speaking up. And the world misses out on us being salt and light. If think about it, salt and light sounds fantastic. ⁓ we want to influence the world. Light ⁓ transforms dark spaces, Jack. But salt was known in the time when it was written. To be a preserver of good foods. The best preserver of good foods was salt. And we get to be the ones that preserve the good things in our community by standing up, by engaging, and saying the pathway to human flourishing is by knowing the Lord Jesus Christ and following his ways, whether individually, in families, or in communities and nation states. We should be the ones going, Are you kidding me? This has gone the opposite way on our watch, and we need to do something about it. ⁓ We're called to be salt and we're called to be light. And stepping away from that is actually just taking a whole bunch of stuff and cutting it. You have to get scissors to cut this stuff out of the Bible, Jack. Let's actually read it. It's challenging because you've got to know your stuff. You've got to be able to have a conversation. You got to able to be brutal on concepts and ideologies, but kind to a person. It's the mixture of charity and clarity that's required to be able to do it. So while a lot of people avoid it because it's very difficult. Bex: And I think Jack O'Brien: Yeah, it's it's interesting, right? Go Bex, you go. Bex: I was gonna say just to be clear too, we're not saying everyone has to become a internet warrior, keyboard warrior on social media railing against the government or or you know, whatever. But everyone has a way that they can be influential. and we've got to figure out what is that way for me, what you know, what has God placed in my hand that I need to be faithful with in this moment. And ⁓ and that that can be in big ways and it can be in small ways, right? You know, we talked yesterday about one of the key things that we need to do is disciple our children, right? One of the other key things we need do is vote with wisdom. You know, those are things that all of us can do. getting involved doesn't mean you have to become a politician or become political, but it does mean, hey, when there's a bill that's putting put forward that's pro-life, get on the phone or write an email to your local member and let them know what you think. And if all the Christians did that. Imagine how that landscape might change, right? So this is not I think I think sometimes we go, ⁓ I can't do that. I can't, I don't have a platform, I don't have a microphone. No, no, but you do have influence and you don't realize how much influence you have. You know, and so you go, okay, God, what have you put in my hand? I'm gonna be faithful with that for the good of my nation, for the sake of my children, for the sake of the children that, you know, my grandchildren. We're gonna make a difference. And everyone can do that. DC: Yeah, look, when when it comes to the political side of things, there are some very easy things that people can do. You can join a party. It's actually quite easy. And ⁓ a lot of our parties are like anywhere between one to five votes away from good things happening. Seriously, one to five votes, and it means you don't get everything, but you can start to actually change locally ⁓ parties. So if you do lean left and I don't. Jack O'Brien: I agree and I think it's maybe there's just semantics here and people hear the word politics, ⁓ get involved in, you know, political things and it's like maybe it's the wording that that triggers people. Like what we're actually talking about is participating in society and it it's Bex: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, politics turns people off, right? But people get turned off by the whole idea of politics. But Ali Beth Stucky says it so br brilliantly. She says politics matter because policies matter, because people matter. This is actually about people. This is actually about our nation. And we can and like like Dave said, you know, I I've got a friend who's up in Queensland, and ⁓ she was explaining to me, she joined the L and P party up there, which is it's a DC: If we just ⁓ Yeah. Yes. Bex: L and P is actually the whole the whole party, it's combined of Liberal and National together. She joined it up there and in her local branch and she said things began to shift them when there was about twenty of them. It was it wasn't like thousands, it was twenty. And over the course of the last few years that she's been involved, ⁓ what has happened is actually at the I think it was last year at the L and P ⁓ Execu Women's Executive, there was a whole new vote. Like there was a vote for all the different, you know, president and vice and all those things. And for the first time in recent history, the whole thing shifted and that group of women now is 100% pro-life. And before that platform of women, the women's executive council had been pro-abortion within the LMB party, all shifted by the space of just a handful of women. And so now the Queensland women, you know, are pro-life, which was never the case before, which is wild. So she goes, This doesn't have to be thousands or millions of people. It's like you get twenty or thirty people involved and you can shift policy. It's wild. Jack O'Brien: Yeah. And I think, you know, to that point of like what is our role? Like we all have a part to play, right? We're all different parts of the same body and we've got a role to play. We often talk about the body as the church inside the four walls, but in society, as an act of love to your family and your neighbor and your nation, we have a role to play. And yes, I played a little bit of ad adversary earlier, but if we look at James, the book of James in totality, right, it goes on a few chapters later. And this is this is what gets me when it comes to political advocacy. It says in James chapter four, seventeen, if anyone then knows the good they ought to do and does not do it, it is sin. And so you can't you cannot you cannot just choose to abstain, right? You can quote the Bonhoeffer one better than I can, Bex, but like to to to just sit on the sidelines and let someone else participate, it's not good enough in God's eyes. Bex: Wow. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Bonhoffer says silence silence in the face of evil is evil. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act. Yeah. And then he's, I think he says he finishes off by saying, God will not hold you guiltless or something along those lines. Yeah. So those who don't know, Bonhoeffer was a German pastor in the 1930s as a DC: Can I Jack O'Brien: Silence in the face of evil. What's the what's the Bonhoeffer quote? Bex: the Nazi Party was rising into power and then during World War Two he was actually executed by the Nazi Party because he was one of the few pastors that spoke out against Hitler and against the atrocities that he was doing. DC: The there's a there's a a gift that you spoke about ⁓ when we ⁓ right at the end of your message, Bex, and it's called our voting, our preferential voting system. What it means is we just have to understand, because people think, well, you can't vote for the Christian party, you can't vote for the pro life party, because it means that your vote will be wasted. They're never gonna make it in. So why would you vote for them? And therefore, you know, what if the other, the complete other side, ⁓ you know, what about the loony bins that are ma the major party that you disagree with? What about if Get in, and and so people often won't vote for the Christian party. But with preferential voting, you've got to actually understand it. Actually, one of the clearest videos I've seen on it is ⁓ is ⁓ Pauline Hansen's One Nation did a video recently in their cartoon series on how the preferential voting system with their ⁓ elbow caricature, it was actually very well explained that what happens is if you vote for a very well explained, if you don't like Pauline Hansen. G just get over it for a second and just watch the video because it's actually very well explained. And it's actually quite funny the way that they present, it's quite engaging. If you vote for, say, family first because you go, they're pro-life, they're Christian, but you think, I don't want the loonies to get in, you can vote family first. Now, if they get in, fantastic. And if that vote actually starts to grow, fantastic. A lot of people won't vote for them because they think it's wasted. But what happens in a preferential system? Bex: Sorry. DC: is if someone doesn't get to 50% of the vote, what happens is they'll take, say, the top four, and then they'll say, well, who are the top four? And then they'll take out the the the the least in those four and then the preferences. So whoever vote voted for for candidate four, say it's family first. If your next vote was for one nation, now one nation gets one to their pile. If it was for labor, labor, if it was for ⁓ for national But it goes on that way. So whatever the second preference from this person was, that gets then put onto the other ones. Now, if someone gets over 50%, that person is one. But if then candidate ⁓ number three, then their preferences go on the pile until between two, you've got someone that gets it's why it's called two-party preferred in that kind of situation. It's who gets to be the top two. One of those will get over 50% in that kind of preferential system. So you can, if you're going to vote, number one, here's the principles fear God and love your neighbor. Number two, rank the candidates, not the parties. Number three, always number every box. Always number every box. If you're in the Senate, you need to do it either above the line, every box, or below the line, every box. And number four, never vote for a baby killer because that is infanticide. And I believe that is an absolute scourge on our Jack O'Brien: Mm-hmm. DC: If you can follow those four principles, you'll be doing a great job. And you can actually just engage in the political process and not be disengaged and go, why the flip am I bothering with this? Your vote actually can make a difference. And if you teach more people that way, that is what will happen. You can engage and join a party and be the difference in a party. There's so close a lot of these parties to actually having good things start to happen. And what Beck said, 20 people in the party started to shift the whole thing. And now the Women's Council for L and P in Queensland is 100% pro life. It's a such a turnaround. It's huge. It's so influential. And there's some easy ways to be involved. Bex: Yeah. Well, Jack O'Brien: The ⁓ the humanist side of things, Bex, speaking of ⁓ of infanticide, Dave, and and abortion specifically, the here's one of the one of the many fatal flaws of ⁓ of humanism, right, is that we we have a flexible definition of what is valuable or what is good or what is harmful, right? In the opposite sense. A quote that you or a a phrase, turn of phrase that you use, Bex, that really stood out to me was ⁓ quality of life versus sanctity. of life. And this whole definition of quality of life keeps getting stretched. Now, you know, there's ⁓ there's public prominent voices that are talking about post-birth abortion and, you know, euthanasia against people's will. Like these things are just straight up murder. And yet we're trying to redefine them in a politically correct humanist way. Can you maybe speak to some other examples of how humanism Bex: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jack O'Brien: ⁓ i is is such fluid morals and it changes with the tides and public perception. Bex: I mean, even on the on the euthanasia thing, I gave one example yesterday of a of a Christian grandmother who was killed against her will, but I had more examples of that. even I read the other day, you know, there's there's been a few of the the grandmother stories. but I read one the other day where there was a a two year old was euthanized. Two years old. and, you know, you just go, How can this be? And that was in a European country. That was you know, you just go Why? It's insane. But there's so many other examples. I mean Jack O'Brien: It's a it's like but it it's also like w when these things first start out, it's like ⁓ it's the humane thing to do and then we get and I don't know, tell me if you don't want to go there necessarily publicly. But then we get to cases like Lindsay Clancy or the same thing that's happening in the Blue Mountains this month in our state in New South Wales. A mother killed her children in New South Wales two weeks ago and is, you know, being let off because of mental health. Because that that is the humanist worldview in action, right? Bex: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean that is that is toxic empathy. That is suicidal empathy, right? It's it it's it's remarkable how what happens is suddenly the empathy is with the ⁓ the person who's done wrong, not with the victim. And this is just wild to me. Jack O'Brien: It's not just suicidal empathy, it's homicidal empathy. Bex: Homicidal empathy. You're right, right. The empathy empathy is with the person who murdered. DC: ⁓ look for anyone, anyone sorry, I've I've got to cut in there. Anyone who's watching or listening to this podcast, you've got to read a book called Suicidal Empathy by Gad Sadd. Now, ⁓ the guy's got a funny name, you should be able to find it. G-A-D is his first name, S-A-A-D. It's a stunning ⁓ expose on how postmodern secular atheism led to not just toxic empathy, Ali Beth Starkey, great book, but suicidal, where we actually give more empathy to the perpetrator than the victim, is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Our justice system should be based upon punishment and a disincentive that that thing should happen again. It's not for rehabilitation. If they rehabilitate, well that's fantastic. But it should be a disincentive and the next priority should be protecting people that that would ever happen again. So please read that book from Gad Sad. It is stunning. Bex: Here's what I would want to wanna say with this is I want people to think and use their brains. Because it's one thing for, you know, the three of us, we all see this the same way and we can say this. But what is happening is people are just going with the cultural flow or adopting, you know, short statements that become the, you know, my body, my choice, right? You you grab that little statement and you just say it. But people are saying it mindlessly, you know? And so that even let's let's give a really good example is when it comes to abortion, people who might go, ⁓ I'm pro-life, except in the case of rape. Okay, well, let's stop and actually think about what you're saying here, right? You are saying that because a man committed a crime against a woman, the baby who's the innocent party gets the death penalty. Not the guy who did it. You've actually got to think this through. It's the same thing with, you know, I mentioned it yesterday with foster care. Often people will say, ⁓ isn't it better to have an abortion? Because what if that kid grows up in the foster care system? Stop and think about what you're saying. You are saying better for that person to be dead than go through hardship. And what I I think what we need to bring back to the church and to society, but let's start with the church, is people able to think and actually say that. Think through the logic of what they're saying rather than blindly saying their little statement with no thoughts around it. Think about it and then re change your thinking to actually be logical and biblical. DC: With that same, those same kind of I suppose tensions or contrasts, here's another one, which is just absolutely crazy. If anyone was to tease someone for being disabled or use the R word, retarded, that's one thing, you can't use these words. You can't use these words anymore. Then if you were to use that, if you were to joke about that, you are cut out from society. But as soon as someone finds out that the baby in their womb Has some form of disability or retardation, the first thing, the first thing that's offered is let's kill the baby. And if you don't want to, how many parents have I talked to? ⁓ this is gonna happen to your child, and they go, No, this child is valuable. And whether the child comes out with that disability or not, they're like, No, this is my child, and God has put this one in my life. The first and the doctors think you're weird for wanting to keep a child. Now, some people are more offended about the joke. Bex: Right. Mm-hmm. DC: than the fact that we kill kids like that for just the simple fact that they may be disabled in the womb. It's a wild notion. The the the dissonance is just wild. Jack O'Brien: A a really a wise good lifer sent me a message yesterday and I'll I'll let them remain unnamed, but they're they're old and they're wise. And ⁓ and he they said this, they said, you know, laws are supposed to do more help than harm and that works most of the time unless there's a postmodern redefinition of what harm actually is. Therefore, all laws need to be grounded in something more eternal, not just open to man's subjective opinion. And that's what s humanism is, right? It's it's subjective opinion that changes with the wind. Bex: Yeah, that's spot on. Exactly. So because you've removed God, you've now removed the independent arbitrate arbiter of what is right and wrong, right? and and so therefore now right and wrong is changeable with the wind, changeable with whoever's in power, changeable with whatever their own ⁓ agenda is, right? ⁓ and and that's why the the gift of having God. Is that he's independent, he's outside of our messed up world in that sense, and he is good. He doesn't have a private agenda to, you know, do you can actually trust him. And so when mankind grabs hold of that, suddenly good and evil is all about my agenda and what I'm trying to achieve. And you can't trust that. So yeah, I don't know who that person was, but they're absolutely spot on. Jack O'Brien: Yeah, I'll tell you off air. ⁓ unless they don't want to be publicized. Hey, Dave, back to something you just said. And I I think ⁓ just to add a little bit more nuance to what you said, that there's a role for both the the state and the church. And it's the state's job to to punish, right? And to hold up consequence. And in the same breath, it is in a lot of regards the church's job to offer rehabilitation, i.e., repentance and salvation, right? So just to make sure. What you're saying is clear. Yes, there needs to be just consequence and there needs to be a church that's there willing to minister grace and repentance. Do you wanna say more about that? DC: Yeah, look, ⁓ it's very easy in this ⁓ modern world and the way that we see things and the way that postmodern atheistic secularism, all the things that Bex is covering, has affected the way that we see things. And so a lot of people are just swallowing the fa the swallowing the ⁓ the lies that that of what government is meant to do. ⁓ Romans does make it very clear, this is what I pay taxes for, this. For the defense of my nation, for for defense of threats external and defense of threats internal. And so what I'm looking for is my government to be a terror to those who want to do evil. That is very clear in scriptures, and that's what I pay my taxes for. Now I pay well, I pay way more tax than is required to do those two things, and so this goes a whole lot further. And so what it means is oftentimes that people think that the redistribution of taxes into welfare, into rehabilitation is we're doing the right thing. That's not generosity. That's tax at that point is theft. What we want to do is to be the church that is shining, bright. We've got to be the church that stands up as individuals, but also as an organization. I love it when people say, Well, the church should do more about this situation. And I go, Well, I'm the church, you're the church. What are you doing about it? Like The organization should do it. And that's the way. It's actually a postmodern way of thinking about it. The church should do X is the same kind of thinking as the government should do X. No, no, no. The church is the people. What are you doing about it? What am I doing about it? The church should do more about this situation in Nepal. Well, I can tell you that it is. A good life church is the hands and feet of Jesus locally and across the globe. The amount of causes that we take care of as a church. Don't hear about it because there's so much. I can't keep up with it. And it's actually just the call of God for the church to do that. Now we also do things, some of those things together, and we have to keep that focus going right there. But it's the cause of the government to do this, but the cause of the church to be the hands and feet of Jesus. ⁓ that's why he was anointed to bind up the brokenhearted, to look at to go to those that are in prison. ⁓ to take care of widows and orphans. We've got to be doing that. And we are doing that and we aim to do more of that. Jack O'Brien: I like it. And and you know, I think maybe perhaps ⁓ w we're doing this on the fly, but that verse of taking care of widows and orphans in their distress and keep oneself from being polluted. ⁓ maybe I'm paraphrasing or haven't quite appropriately quoted that. But a lot of what we're talking here is proactively, to your point, Bex, proactively protecting the next generations from being polluted. And it's like that canary in the coal mine, like Guys, we need to stop this because it gets worse. And y you may be s labeled as an alarmist if you sound the alarm too early, but this is the job of scripture is to protect oneself from future evils. Do you want to say more about that, Bex? Bex: Yeah, I ⁓ I said to someone yesterday I I feel a little bit like the watchman on the walls, like trying to shout out and go, people see what's happening, watch what's like trying to wake people up to that because I think you're absolutely right. We we have a responsibility, we actually have a responsibility. And and you know, when you said keep yourself from polluted being polluted from the world, it's it it really is that thing of going, what are we leaving for our children and our grandchildren and what is our responsibility to get involved there? How is our s you know, what are we supposed to be doing? I do not want to put my head in the sand and just live my life and have a happy happy, clappy life and get to the end and Australia be darker or more evil or more difficult to be a Christian because I didn't stand up and I didn't speak out. ⁓ yeah, that's all I've done that. Jack O'Brien: I really like that. And you know, I think Dave, I'll give you a moment, but you know, I look at countries that are becoming more Christian. And it is possible and it is happening. You look at some of the Eastern European countries Poland and Hungary who are standing on timeless objective morality of scripture, and their their nation is thriving, their people are thriving, families are thriving. Be because probably decades and generations ago, someone or a church or a Christian decided to go, enough's enough. DC: Yep. Bex: Mm. Jack O'Brien: We're turning this thing around, Dave. DC: Well, look, it's prayer and revival that leads to reformation, Jack. And so we are doing both of those. We're on the front foot with both of those at Good Life Church. And ⁓ I was saying on Sunday morning that the ⁓ I heard that there was basically revival broke out at this at the Tuesday morning prayer meeting. Now we were at Joel and Cora's ⁓ wedding, so I had to blame them for missing revival. I'm like, I just want it to continue to break out. God, God is moving, there's faith. For ⁓ faith for God to move and people are coming to prayer meetings on Tuesday nights and Thursday mornings for men. So great things are happening. So we we want to be able to do both. It's faith for revival and for reformation. That when we go back to our workplaces and communities and homes, wherever we're at, that we actually make a difference, that we shine a light in in Jesus' name. ⁓ so those things happen. The the the pathway towards human flourishing. Is the gospel, is the Lord Jesus Christ, is the church being the church, not just people attending church. ⁓ Charlie Kirk used to say the most the number one most important thing is to preach the gospel that people would know Jesus. The number two thing is to make sure you can do number one, and that's what we've got to do in our society. And so look, I I've repented privately. I've I've done it in other spaces. I did it yesterday. Aga again, it's been years since we've said these things and we've walked away from that thought of where we said our public stance is love and everything else is a private conversation. I repent, Jack. ⁓ I I I can't sleep at night knowing the the damage that was done because we took a backward step on important things. Cause we were literally with all h hand on heart, great intent. wanting people to come to Jesus and thinking that was the pathway. It was the number one thing, preaching the gospel is what we were hoping to do, but forgot the number two thing was to make sure that we can continue to do number one. I want to make sure that my kids can continue to number one, that my grandkids can, that this is our society that is blessed because we had the spine to tackle difficult things and learn how to have clear conversations with clarity, but have it with charity as well. So We're gonna walk out away from that thought of our our our public stance is love. Sure, love is ⁓ is undergirds everything, but it's the truth that sets you free. It's when you know the truth, the truth sets you free. And that is so, so important. And we want more people that are gonna transform the world with the truth and the power of Jesus Christ. Jack O'Brien: Bex, we'll we'll land this soon, but I'd I'd love you maybe just to speak a little pastorally to listeners and w and Dave, you alluded to it ⁓ opening yesterday. We touched on it in our last episode, but this this series is going to be uncomfortable for some. And like, how do we sit with that discomfort? You know, I often think we all we all love to quote that proverb, right, as iron sharpens iron. It's like have you ever watched Iron Sharpen Iron? Like it's rough and sparky and friction and spurs and burrs and it's it's not pleasant, but the outcome is sharpness. And really what we want as a church is for good life is to be sharp. And therefore, we need to be okay with having our cages rattled, our feathers feathers ruffled. But how would you how would you encourage people, Bex, to sit with uncomfortable feelings or even the notion of changing our mind, right? Like how Bex: ⁓ Yeah, I was thinking a lot about this as I was preparing, to be honest. ⁓ and I said it a couple of times yesterday that we need to be grown ups, and I think that's the best way I can put it, to be honest, is that. Jack O'Brien: It is a difficult thing to change your mind or to be transformed in your mind. So yeah, can you speak so speak to that experience, please? Bex: We live in such a reactionary society and such an offendable society. And so if someone says something that doesn't toe the line or is not politically correct or can be taken offense to, we do take offense to. And the interesting thing is we're seeing this even in our in our laws, right? They're bringing laws in where you can actually it can now be a criminal offence to cause anxiety or offend someone, which is just insane to me. ⁓ you know, 'cause I don't offend you, you take offense, right? And and yet suddenly it's and and so it's becoming so widespread in our society that we will react to s what someone says and take offense at it without sitting back and going, hang on, let me think about that. And one of the things that sadly is not being taught in our schools anymore, but which is something that I would love certainly every Christian to know how to do, is to put an issue in the middle of the table. And look at it from all the angles and go, what does the Bible say about this? Not blindly take what culture says or not blindly take the the ten word statement about culture, about that thing, and just blindly say it, but actually sit down and go, hang on a second. And ⁓ if I can give you this is a slightly different ⁓ different example, but if I can give you an example, ⁓ you know, in the Bible it talks about ⁓ whether women can teach or preach, right? And there's a lot of debate within Christianity about whether women can preach or teach. ⁓ I happen to believe that the best understanding of that scripture is that women can teach and preach, but I recognise the other side. DC: Hold on, of course of course you believe that. Of course you do. Bex: Okay, I don't want to discuss the actual issue, so we're not going to go down that road. But let me give you what I say to my students whenever I'm teaching on this particular topic. I say this. I said, you need to understand that if the Bible does say that, then I need to stop. I actually, as a Christian, my responsibility is to submit my life to the word of God. And so if I have misunderstood that scripture, or if I've misunderstood, or if I've got the wrong idea. As a Christian, it's actually my response responsibility to go, okay, I was wrong, and it's actually time for me to submit my not just my life, but my thoughts and my opinions to the word of God. And so I guess that would be what I would hope is that ⁓ we can be grown-ups about this and willing to sit there and go, hmm, I've never seen it that way before. I'm gonna ponder that. I'm gonna go to the scriptures. You know, Paul praised the Bereans because he would teach and they would go, hang on a second, and they'd open up the word of God and search through the scriptures and look at what the scriptures said and go, ⁓ okay, yeah, that makes sense of what Paul just said. I get that. And I want I want that. I want Christians and our church to be that, that they would search the scriptures and assess it and wrestle with it. It's okay to wrestle with these things. So what would you like to do? Sorry. ⁓ over the next few weeks while I'm teaching. I and if things come up, you go, what? I've never seen it that way or I disagree or whatever. I would say please don't get offended. Go to the scripture, wrestle with it. Come and ask me. Let's wrestle together with it. I mean, I love doing that. I love sitting with the word of God and wrestling over a thing. And ⁓ it's a beautiful thing to do. It's a gift that God's given us to use our minds. So let's not jump to a fence, let's not jump to the quick cultural statement. Let's wrestle with it, go to the scripture and then submit to what the word of God says. Jack O'Brien: Wonderful. Thank you. ⁓ I love that. And ⁓ you know, you said it yesterday, Bex, but I'll I'll echo it on behalf of Good Life. We we appreciate both of you for being the shepherds that ⁓ that God has called you to be and to shepherd us, it would be an abdication of your responsibility not to protect ⁓ protect our church from these ideologies and not just to protect us but to equip us to to thrive. So yeah, we're not ignorant to the personal cost ⁓ Bex: Yeah. Thanks, Jack. Jack O'Brien: For you both. So thank you and and we honor you and we appreciate you. ⁓ I want to make sure that's known publicly. Thank you. DC: Thank you, Jack. Jack O'Brien: ⁓ all right. Well, on that note, that'll do. Let's land it there. ⁓ we got ⁓ week two next week, Bex. On what what have we got next week? Bex: Yep. Next week I'm doing post well this coming Sunday, doing ⁓ postmodernism and progressive Christianity which tie together actually progressive Christianity comes out of postmodernism and really dangerous and and and the tricky thing about postmodernism it is the ⁓ it's the cultural cultural soup we live in. So we think postmodernly without even realizing it. And so hopefully I can help people realize that and shift how they think. DC: Ha ha ha ha ⁓ Jack O'Brien: Love it. Good life has come, ready to be formed, ready to be challenged and ⁓ and to grow together because it is a joy to be formed into the likeness of Christ for the sake of others. Pastor Dave, Pastor Bex, thank you. See you on another episode. Bex: Right. Thanks. DC: Thank you, Jack. Bex: Sorry about my car doing weird things in the middle of