Latest / AccessCo Leaders Career Conversations / Sincerity & Showmanship
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome back to AccessCo Leaders Career Conversations. I'm Ilyne. I get to host this incredible conversation with our students from Moore High School and such an opportunity to meet Jonathan Harar, major US Army JAG. As our guest today, Jonathan, welcome to the call. speaker-1: Hello ma'am, how you doing? speaker-0: I'm well. Tell us what are you doing as a major in the US Army, but serving as a JAG officer? speaker-1: So first of all, I wear two hats. I'm not only an officer, but I'm a lawyer as well. So we're always saying we're a dual-hatted profession. So I had to go to law school like a normal lawyer. All my clients are always asking me, are you sure you're a real lawyer? I am. I actually started my practice outside of Philadelphia as a district attorney and then decided to join the JAG Corps where I've been for 10 years. And in the JAG Corps, they try to keep your skills broad. because as you rank up, you get more responsibility and you have to touch different areas of law. So I started off as a prosecutor, then I was a national security attorney, which a lot of people think that that's kind of interesting because those are the ones where your commander is deciding whether or not you can kill someone, whether or not we're giving locals supplies, how exactly the rules of engagement look in another theater. So I totally deviated from my normal trial attorney skills for about the first three years in the JAG Corps. and just did national security law, sleeping in the desert, learning how soldiers talk, went to Afghanistan for a year, did a lot of real world stuff, did a lot of notional stuff. And then I was like, all right, it's time for me to get back in the courtroom. So I became a prosecutor again. And then I've been a defense attorney actually for four years, totally switch sides, if you will. ⁓ And I've been a defense attorney, kind of a basically a public defender for soldiers. So if you're charged with any crimes or they're trying to kick you out of the military, you get all these due process rights. And one of those rights is you get me. free attorney. So it's actually a really awesome job. I get to represent guys who raised their hand to serve their country. Some of them did it, some of them didn't. So yeah, I'm a defense attorney now in Colorado. Loving, loving life. I have a cool title. I'm called a complex litigator. But really it's, it's just a different, different criminal cases. speaker-0: complex litigator, a public defender for our soldiers. So Jonathan, first of all, thank you for your service. And you shared earlier that you have been on active duty for 10 years, which is amazing. And I know before you joined the army, you did some other things. Can you tell us a little bit about what you were doing before the army? speaker-3: Yeah, let's work back. speaker-1: So did the army for 10 years then I was at the district attorney's office I don't know if you guys are in on the conversation with mr. Joy, but right outside of Philadelphia and Chester County I would call it a mid-size County. So it wasn't like super rural with only five attorneys. We had about 60 lawyers there started at the bottom ⁓ basically just working preliminary hearings ⁓ Regularly like traffic appeals and stuff like that and then worked my way up to being a supervising attorney at the district attorney's office supervising all the new lawyers and the new interns ⁓ and basically running a courtroom list, if you will. So every judge has about a hundred cases and my job is to take half of them, ostensibly the more serious ones, and dole out justice, whether that be working out cases, sometimes withdrawing cases, if an attorney provided me something that suggests that they were innocent, and then other times where we couldn't come to agreement, trying those cases and going to trial to fight for justice. So I did that for six years right out of law school. speaker-0: Awesome, so you stay busy. speaker-1: I did stay busy. Yeah, that's where I interned. It just worked out fortuitously that they had a slot open up right after law school and I was all in. You don't make any money, but you get paid and experience. And obviously the relationships that I formed there have been invaluable and those are like my legal besties for the rest of my life. speaker-0: love that legal besties. All right. I have one more question before we turn it over to the students. Jonathan, ⁓ tell us in middle school and on high school, what kept you busy? Like how did you wake up one day and say, I'm going to go to college, go to law school, and then serving the army. Tell us a little bit about what you were doing. speaker-1: Well, now really peeling back the layers. So middle school, I was a terrible student. you know, I moved a lot growing up. went to five different elementary schools, two different middle schools. I didn't have a lot of close friends or that structure and security that I think kids need that I'm frankly not giving my kids because we're still moving a lot. ⁓ But I was, I was a bad student and my mom saw that I was kind of careening off the path. ⁓ And she actually ended up sending me to boarding school. So it was this program for single moms ⁓ with kids with potential that weren't reaching that potential. I was literally the poster child for that. And I went to boarding school for freshman year of high school. And that really got me on the path. I definitely fought that initially. Didn't love boarding school. ⁓ Again, all new people having to live at school, didn't go home ever until the summers. But as I aged up, junior, senior year, I became more serious. I became more curious, which I think is truly the characteristic that you need to get through, get yourself through life, that curiosity. And then kind of towards senior year, I kind of realized, ⁓ my God, maybe I am kind of smart, even though I had gotten pretty much terrible grades all through middle school and high school. And maybe there is a possibility here that I could be a lawyer. I thought that was reserved for like, you know, people that went to those types of schools. ⁓ And I didn't think that was me, but then I started to believe maybe I could do that. And so I went to college. ⁓ get a poli sci degree and just read, read and wrote as much as I could to try and get myself potentially ready for the possibility of going to law school. But yeah, it wasn't until senior year that I thought maybe I could even possibly do that. I thought I was a terrible student. I thought I was dumb and I didn't think I'd be able to do something like that. speaker-0: Well, bummer, bummer that you, that's what you thought. And hopefully you had some conversations if even accidentally along the way, but shout out and props to your mom and with Mother's Day coming up this weekend. I'm glad that, and we're all so grateful that she made that decision to say, I need to get my son back on track here and look at the trajectory trajectory of that one decision of her son made. So I'm going to pass this over now to our students and we're going to start off with Cooper. Cooper is in the 10th grade. Cooper, I'd love for you to share with Jonathan. what you're interested in and how you became interested in becoming an attorney. speaker-2: Well, I am interested in both robotics and in law. ⁓ I became interested in law specifically last year whenever I took mock trial. Before that I had never even considered it as a possibility. But I had a trial one day. It was my first trial and the moment I got up on stand and I started asking questions I just knew I wanted to it. Don't know how to explain it, just like a spark appeared. speaker-1: Yeah, and that's how it is in court. mean, when I'm in a trial, it's my game seven. Sorry if I keep relating to sports anecdotes here, but that is I remember one of my first trials. ⁓ My supervisor looked over and he was like, this is where you're supposed to be. And I mean, when you got all the synapses firing Cooper, which I think is what you're describing and you're in the zone and it's just you and the witness or you and a judge, there's nothing better. That's what I live for. I don't play sports anymore, but when I'm in the zone like that, I mean, I know that that's where I'm supposed to be. So maybe you got a little spark of that feeling. I gotta ask, what kind of lawyer were you playing in this trial? Was it a civil case, criminal case? Were you being a plaintiff's lawyer or a defense lawyer, if you know? speaker-2: ⁓ I don't remember exactly what side I was on. I believe I was on the defense though, and it was a criminal trial for, I believe the case was about someone who had broken into a house during a severe storm to take shelter and he did end up doing some property damage to the house as well. So whenever the family had gotten back, they were terrified. And the girl had claimed she had done it just out of necessity for her life. speaker-1: Destiny, that's right. Did you win the case, Cooper? ⁓ no! speaker-2: No, we did not. We got impeached on the sand. speaker-1: Why? Because that was not in fact what they were doing. They were actually breaking in to do something else. speaker-2: Now she said something different from Interapp with David whenever she was up on the stand. But it didn't. Yeah. speaker-1: Those inconsistent statements kill us all the time. ⁓ But honestly, I mostly leverage inconsistent statements in my practice as a defense attorney. Usually the prosecutor is trying to line everything up linear and I'm over there just trying to make a mess of things. Because if it's a mess, juries don't know what happened. speaker-0: Well, Cooper, what's your first question for Jonathan? speaker-2: So. ⁓ Do you partake in jury selection and if you do, what is the main thing you look for in a jury member? speaker-1: Awesome question. So we use this Latin phrase called voir dire. And you might have seen it in movies or TV where they have a whole bunch of people come in. In the civilian world, it's basically people from the voter rolls. So you'll get all classes of human beings coming in, everything from people who are professionals to people who don't have jobs and everything in between. And you really have to sift out. Basically, you're looking for an objective juror, someone who might be willing. to at least be open-minded, especially as a defense attorney, open-minded to the arguments that you are going to make. If you have jurors who've already made their minds up and they kind of reveal themselves fairly simply with their curt answers to questions or their unwillingness to be corrected on the law, the closed-minded folks, we got to get them off the jury because they're not going to be helpful and they're not listening and they turn their minds off. And you meet people like this every day who really aren't interested in actually having a... candid dialogue. They really made their mind up and they just they're just waiting for their turn to talk. In the military, it's even crazier. The general on the base picks all the jurors who are going to be on my panel. So it's already stacked with a bunch of people that the government already kind of want. And ⁓ and they're always going to answer the question to the judge. ⁓ I'm absolutely open minded, Your Honor. But voir dire is an art. It's not a science. Picking a jury is an art and not a science. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying and hasn't picked a jury. Unfortunately, you use a lot of stereotypes. You use a lot of your human skills. I think my skills as a server, I was a door-to-door salesman. I've worked retail. ⁓ All those skills have helped me a lot more in voir dire at being a trial attorney than actually anything I learned in law school. I can read people fairly well, having gone to like 15 different schools. I mean, that's my thing. That's why I'm a trial attorney. So I look at someone. I read body language, I read how they're listening, are they paying close attention, what they're wearing. I do stereotype a little bit, because you're trying to figure people out, but I try not to let that just dictate whether or not I pick them. So picking a jury is tough. You never know if you're gonna get, I call them a sleeper cell, someone in there who hates you, but really someone engaged, someone who's listening, someone who's open-minded, I'll take that, I'll take that. speaker-0: So Jonathan, it sounds like there's a lot of psychology involved into that aspect of your job. speaker-1: 100%. And you can't convince people that have already made their mind up. And as a defense attorney, I'm already walking in the door where they assume my guy did it. And they assume that the government is on the right side of things. And why else would they be there? So I'm already working kind of against the tide, if you will. So yeah, you use a lot of psychology in persuading folks, especially if they've already kind of made a decision before they walk in the courtroom. That's a huge part of being a trial lawyer. speaker-0: Cooper, what's your follow-up question for Jonathan? speaker-2: up. ⁓ I'm already unmuted. ⁓ How many cases do you settle outside of court versus actually in the courtroom? speaker-1: A large swath of them. If the system works correctly, they're really supposed to be charging people where they have a sufficient amount of evidence that they probably did it, right? If the system works correctly, I'm meeting my client, I'm walking through all the evidence and I'm going, hey bud, like this is overwhelming or it would be unwise to take this to trial. So let me go negotiate for you and see if I can work something out, especially soldiers, their first time, this is their first offense. because they got into the military, they weren't allowed to have crimes before they joined. So these are good clients. People without prior histories have never been to jail before, have no ⁓ incidents with the law prior to that. So if the evidence is overwhelming, which is hopefully how the system works, I'm negotiating. So I'd say a large swath of cases usually work out. And then the ones that go to trial are the tricky ones. where you literally look at all the evidence and go, I have no idea what happened. Or maybe there's an immigration situation where a person cannot take a plea at all, or they really don't wanna get kicked out of the military. They've been in for 18 years and even though the evidence is overwhelming, they're like, I can't lose my pension, sir. I need to stay in and so I need you to go to trial anyway, even though the evidence is like has me on camera committing the crime. Like maybe something cool happened and I'll persuade the jury. So I would say most of them work out. But the ones that go to trial are the tricky ones and they usually have good reasons why they go to trial. speaker-0: Good question. Thanks for explaining that to you, Jonathan. We're going to go over to Colt. Colt, can you share with Jonathan what made you interested in going into becoming an attorney someday? speaker-2: Well, I originally became interested in becoming an attorney in junior high when my friends told me I'd make a good one. And then coming into high school, I speaker-1: I used to get that a lot too. Were they insulting you or were they saying positively? speaker-2: This is said positively most of the time. Then in high school, I went to intro to mock trial and I really enjoyed it. speaker-1: What year are you called? speaker-2: I'm a sophomore, 10th speaker-1: Any other side interests? know Cooper was into robotics. Are you just like, on the law path. speaker-2: I'm also interested in music, specifically choir and math. speaker-1: Awesome. speaker-0: Jonathan, do you see math used in your line of work? speaker-1: You know, the engineer types have a place in the law because so much of the law is built brick by brick. So I went to law school with a lot of engineer types. I don't know that they're always trial lawyers ⁓ because of that rigidity and that way of thinking, but they are super valuable potentially to a trial team. And there's a whole swath of law that I don't even touch bankruptcy law where obviously math would be invaluable. speaker-4: because speaker-1: There's all these corporate lawyers who do a lot of brief writing. I don't do any of that for the most part. ⁓ And then obviously appellate lawyers. So that engineer sort of like equation math minded lawyer. Yeah, there's a whole swath of attorneys who think like that. ⁓ Those aren't my skills. ⁓ I'm a talker, but those are skills that lawyers need as well. speaker-0: Jonathan, the sense I get is that you are in the role that Hollywood and that shows are made of books are written about attorneys ⁓ like you that do the jobs that you do. That's exciting. All right, cool. What's your first question for Jonathan? speaker-2: My first question is, what made you decide which type of lawyer you wanted to be? speaker-1: So. It was kind of a process of elimination. I went to law school and it wasn't what I expected. It was not like college. And I know you guys aren't in college yet, but a lot of college was, hey, read these hundred pages and we're going to come to class and talk about it. Or we're going to write an essay about it of some sort. We're going to go to lectures. Not what law school was like at all. It was essentially a lot of short stories and that's called the case method. So you'll read four to five of these cases in preparation for class. And you'll go to class and discuss all those cases and then try to figure out how those synthesize with all the other cases you've been reading. And throughout the year, you'll have read even just for one class, 150 of these short stories, these cases, and then really have a view of what the law is. Loved it. I loved that. And I love, ⁓ it was actually a lot easier for me than going to college because being able to just simply look at a case. and move on to the next one and kind of short hits, quick hits, and then kind of figure out where that fits in the law was a lot easier to me than sitting down for four or five hours in college and reading like a chapter and then trying to hopefully have any of that stick. In terms of what type of law I wanted to practice, I did everything in law school to try and figure that out. I joined the corporate law review, ⁓ didn't love that. I did ⁓ the appellate practice, it's called MOOC. moot court where you write lengthy appellate briefs then have oral arguments about the law. Didn't love that. can do them all well, but I just didn't think it was me. And then I did an internship at the DA's office to see if I would like that. And that was like me and Cooper talked about earlier. That's just where I knew I was like, oh, this is me. I love it. I got the juices flowing. So I tried everything to really figure that out because I did not know going into law school what type of law I was going to practice. And so I dabbled and then I was like, ooh, that's me. speaker-0: What about you Colt? I know you share that you have an interest in ⁓ the arts, being a singer. And I heard from Mr. Heckert that not only do you sing, but you were an all state choir and you're only in the 10th grade now. That is amazing. Can you see yourself blending your passion for music and an interest in law? speaker-2: I feel like I could see myself doing that. Like, I know it all depends on like where you want to work that determines a lot of the cases you get. So I could use my interest in the arts to decide stuff like that. speaker-0: Jonathan, do you have any experience, wisdom, encouragement for somebody like Cole who has those two passions? speaker-1: Yeah, they often say trial attorneys are failed, failed actors. ⁓ and that was me. I had considered that I was a, ⁓ a play kid growing up. I joined every play I could. I could not sing. So I capped out at some point, but I played all the side roles, love being on stage. did some standup comedy attempts a couple of times. probably not successfully, but being in court, a lot of it is some showmanship. ⁓ there are some scripts involved. Yes, there's some freestyling ⁓ going on, but a lot of being a trial attorney is kind of preparing for the whole thing. You kind of know what's gonna happen. If you're freestyling in court, especially at trial, that's probably not a good thing for your client. So it's somewhat scripted. There's some, like even the pauses in how I talk to witnesses or cross examine a witnesses, all planned. Everything is planned out. So yeah, I do think singing the arts. has a way of kind of finding itself into the courtroom because when you're trying to persuade people, you're not just using facts, you're using emotional ⁓ kind of persuasion as well. So the arts help with that. speaker-0: Well, what's your follow up question for Jonathan? speaker-2: My follow-up question is that as a defense attorney, how did you get around the fact that most jurors will automatically assume that the person is guilty because they sided with the prosecution? speaker-1: You just lead with it in the opening. ⁓ Well, first, during the question and answer period, I try to make sure that people understand that. Hey, do you understand that everyone's entitled to their right to a fair trial? All the witnesses shake their head up and down. And you understand that even though they're here today, they are presumed innocent. All the witnesses shake their head, or all the jurors shake their head up and down. And so as you kind of try to teach them that process, that's really what you're doing when you're trying to pick a jury. And then in opening, you just address it head on. I know it's hard, you're sitting here today and you believe, ⁓ my client probably did something. Please keep an open mind. You took an oath that you would do that and I'm asking you to take a beat, wait till you hear our evidence, wait till you hear our arguments before you make any decisions. So you just gotta go head forward with it. If you ignore it, it's the big elephant in the room. ⁓ I think you just gotta address it head on, which is what I tend to do with everything in a courtroom. speaker-0: love that. Thank you for sharing, Jonathan, ⁓ and sharing with Colt about the showmanship of being in court and some of those scripts. I remember even I participated in mock trial where you've got to study, you've got you actually had your scripts, but in real time, you don't know what the other team is going to throw at you. So you've got to be ready. I think as Cooper and Colt have have displayed, they are getting a lot of practice for that. So it'd be interesting to see what direction they go in. ⁓ speaker-1: It's flow charts. So when I go to like ask a question to a witness and I think it might be objectionable, I anticipate that objection. And then I have a flow charts of, if the judge says this, then I go there. If the judge lets me go in, then I know I can put this in. So, and then you're just basically flow charting how something could go. And then if it doesn't come in, which happens a lot as a trial attorney, even though you tried to get a piece of evidence in, or you tried to get an answer from a question, you take that loss, you move on. maybe you try to come back to it later. And you just, that's where you gotta stay flexible. Like, ⁓ that didn't work, moving on. But yeah, flowcharts. speaker-0: That's right. That's right. Jonathan, even describe it as if you're, you know, an athlete. That's really cool. Cooper, you had another question. speaker-2: Yes, ⁓ I was wondering a bit more on that. Do you have any specific techniques that you use whenever you're trying to persuade the jury of innocence or guilt? speaker-1: I it's a, well, I'm a great mimicker is what I would say. I'm not reinventing the wheel. I generally steal things from other people. And I think that's a great way to go through life. So when I first became a paralegal out of college, ⁓ I was at a law firm and the lawyers there were like, hey, try to go to court as much as possible, see what we do, see how our motions actually kind of play out in court. So I would just go and watch and see things that I saw either. either counsel do ⁓ and go, ooh, I think that that can work. And then at the DA's office, I would often go to trials and watch the defense attorneys and the prosecutors and go, ooh, I'm stealing that. And then I have just been a great stealer of skill sets throughout my life. And I think that's kind of the best way to just grab those skills up and then slowly you kind of start absorbing who you are as a trial attorney. Now, if you try to steal something from someone that's insincere or you try to act like someone else, that comes off to the jury instantly. So the number one thing I tell new trial attorneys and new prosecutors, and I know people think this is like ⁓ advice that doesn't make sense, but it's be yourself and be sincere. If you're not like me and not super gregarious and not over the top, then don't act like that because everybody's going to think you're pretending. But if I were to come in and pretend to be something else as well, it would work just as bad. So being sincere, I think is critical to persuading. ⁓ And I think our politicians could probably take a note from that as well. Being sincere is critical. speaker-0: Yeah, that's such good, such solid wisdom in any industry. I share this all the time. Right now we're speaking with an attorney and a group of students who are interested in law. But in any industry, for our listeners especially, anything that you're interested in, being sincere, being authentic, being true to who you are, ⁓ If you're shy, there's still a way to come out of your shell and still be able to communicate just like people who have a lot of words. There is an opportunity to not have words in those moments. with all sincerity. Well, let's go to another student here interested in legal studies or being an attorney. Let's go to Evelyn. You raised your hand earlier. You have a question or you ready to share with Jonathan about your interests? Yeah. The question that I had was during your time of like trying to figure out what type of lawyer you wanted to be, how long did that take to figure out? Because I heard that you were jumping through like things trying to figure out what kind of attorney you wanted to be. speaker-1: I'm going through that again. I'm, I'm, I'm coming up on 10 years in the military and I'm trying to decide if I want to get out. And, and even right now I'm trying to decide like, Ooh, do I want to sell out? And I was having that same analysis when I came out of law school. Do I just want to go be a corporate lawyer, ⁓ write briefs, potentially make a lot of money, but really be like a big guy trapped in a cubicle writing, writing, ⁓ writing briefs. Sure. I make a lot of money, but I knew that wasn't me. So I think. Don't sell out would be my advice. I think an area of the law will attract you something that you're passionate about because law is hard. You'll find yourself working at night. You'll find yourself logging in early in the morning. You'll find yourself thinking about it on long car rides or in the shower. And if you're doing something you hate, ⁓ that would suck. ⁓ But I mean, a lot of my guys, I would represent for free. And I think when you find yourself willing to do that extra mile, and you find yourself being like, I would do this for free. Like my last trial, I sincerely thought my guy was innocent and he was found not guilty. And I put hundreds of hours into that case to win that case. And I was darn near crying ⁓ when he was found not guilty at trial. And I would have represented that guy for free. So if you find yourself doing work that you would do for free, well then I think you found the right thing. speaker-0: Come on, Jonathan, preach that. I can definitely relate to it. And I say it all the time. That's why we exist. We want our students to know that whatever you're interested in, find a job that brings you joy, right? Because there's too many things that can be done and you have too many solutions in your head to be able to sit there and do something that you don't want to do. granted, there are times we do have to pay bills. You got to, you have, and I, you know, we'll go back to Jonathan and his decision matrix. And at this point from when he was in law school, trying to make those decisions. And now he's got a family and 10 years of, you know, invested in a career to make those decisions. So there was some very practical things. However, you still want to be filled with joy. Now, speaking of passions, Evelyn, why don't you share with Jonathan what you're passionate about and how you became interested in, in, becoming an attorney. So I first started off going to Del City because this is my first year here in Moore High School and I am a senior. So when I was in Del City, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. I was very lost. I'll say I didn't really have a plan until I came here tomorrow and I wasn't here for the first day of school either. So it took a while for me to like enroll to school. And when it was finally my first day of school, I ⁓ made my schedule that day too. So while I was making my schedule, I saw there was mock trial, American studies and ⁓ American justice system. And that really piqued my interest because at first I didn't know what mock trial was either. So I took the class and then I was there and I didn't really know how the class worked either. And then I had American Studies, no American Justice System and we did our first mock trial in there, our mini mock trial. And I became an attorney and that's where it really hit me. I really, really like it. speaker-1: What kind of lawyer were you? Were a prosecutor or a defense attorney? speaker-0: Um, I can't really remember. think it was the fence. I think, yeah. But we did end up losing. speaker-1: ⁓ That's what happens. speaker-0: Yeah, I'm also graduating this year and I plan to go to OCC and do pre-law and get my associates for pre-law and then transfer and go to university to get a bachelor's. Kind of align. speaker-1: Yeah, that's a smart way to do it, an economical way to do it. I went to state school for the first year as well, and then I transferred to a different school afterwards because I didn't come from funds either. So I needed to take out a lot of loans for school. And so, yeah, I think that's a smart way to do it. And just to dabble, I think freshman year, you don't know what you're going to do. So if you're sitting here right now and you think there's pressure to like, oh, decide what you want, you don't have to decide yet. speaker-3: smart. speaker-1: You don't have two kiddos like me or any loans or car notes or anything like that. You can dabble, take risks, get into different areas. And if it doesn't work out, go ahead and swerve. But yeah, read and write, read and write. That's your main skill set. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: That's awesome. speaker-0: Read, write, go ahead and swerve. love this. you're just dropping all the nuggets here. Evelyn, what is your follow-up question for Jonathan? So I wanted to ask, can you describe like a typical day or like week as a military attorney? speaker-1: Yeah, I'll describe last week. last week I had to fly to Utah to represent a guy ⁓ who was arrested for a crime there. I had to first prep the case. So it about two or 300 pages of PDF documents that I reviewed the entire case, ⁓ spotted a couple of issues, got a co-counsel, had that person also fly to Utah, and then arranged with the jail to go meet with my client and spoke with him for about three or four hours to just discuss like, Hey, here's the pros and cons. Here's what I recommend. Hey, nice to meet you. ⁓ Here's, here, do you have anybody that I should be interviewing or asking questions of? And then I left the jail and really started working the case after that. A lot of my job is doing this. I interview people all the time. I'm interviewing witnesses who saw crimes. I'm interviewing detectives. I'm interviewing co-counsel. I'm interviewing experts. We use a lot of experts in the military system. everything from like DNA experts to people who they call it dumping a cell phone when you grab a cell phone and get all the data on it. Well, it's, it's so voluminous that I don't even know how to read it. It's literally thousands of pages to nurse experts. So I talked to a lot of experts. ⁓ And then I do a lot of back and forth with the court where I'm sending emails very formally, either requesting more time. I do a lot of haggling with the prosecutors. ⁓ Really I suck up to them, right? Cause I'm trying to get a deal from my client. So I'm always like, ha ha and kiki and with them as much as possible so that I can maybe get a deal from my client. And then sometimes I got to put my foot down and fight with them, even though that's usually doesn't work out well. So a lot of the time is spent in front of a computer, ⁓ reading case files and communicating with folks at all sorts of different parts of the justice system. And I'm always wearing a hat. and thinking, ⁓ my gosh, who is this person I'm talking to and how can they help my client? I have a big sign on my wall that says, is it good for the client? So if I'm writing an aggressive email, delete that John, because that's not helpful for my client. ⁓ If I'm doing something out of ego, well that's not helpful for my client. And then always thinking like, ooh, do I wanna ask the government for this? Because that might not be helpful for my client. Even though I'm curious about it, it might not be helpful for my client. So I'd say most of my day is spent in front of a computer reading and writing and talking on the phone and zooming, zooming folks. speaker-0: words, a lot of words. Can you quickly explain Jonathan because you shared that you are currently in Colorado, but you went to Utah. And then I know from ⁓ another conversation that you travel around a lot. Can you share how the army decides where you're going to go? Like how far east do you go? Do you do international cases to support the soldiers? Share that a little bit. speaker-1: Yeah, I'm a complex litigator. So I am kind of one level above your basic public defender here in the United States Army. So I'm actually a regional asset. So I cover the entire Great Plains region right now. But I'm always getting calls from out of region either to consult on a case, which is a big part of my job I love. Young attorneys call me and say, hey, sir, I've never done a case like this. What are your ideas? And so there's a big leadership component to my job as a complex litigator, talking to new attorneys and providing consultation. And then, yeah, I cover cases all over the country, but I've been trying to limit and stiff arm cases that are too far away out of country. I'm really supposed to be staying in the Great Plains region, which in this instance covers Utah. So yeah, JAGS, we move a lot. We take on different roles, different jobs. But yeah, for the most part, we're one. giant public defender's office and we have mailing lists where we can always reach out for help and talk to people and get consultations and do consultations. So I'm all over the place. speaker-0: but you also shared on your LinkedIn, said that you're a soldier and an attorney. That's really cool and thank you for explaining that. Sophia, you had your hand up. What's your question? speaker-2: I just wanted to ask, with ⁓ prepping for a trial, how much time do you get? Does it vary or...? speaker-1: It does. It does. like literally I just got a case assigned to me last Friday and the case is docketed for July 12th. There's no way that this case is going on July 12th. I've spent the last all weekend and the last two days trying to get my hands on experts, investigate the case. And then I have to write a continuous emotion. I have a meeting with the judge this afternoon to beg for more time. But if that judge tells me no Major Harar, we're going to trial July 12th. I'm gonna have to put everything down and get ready. And that is a very truncated timeline to not only file motions, but get my experts, investigate the case, and then prep for the actual substance of what's gonna take place on July 12th. So sometimes you do not get enough time, and it never feels like enough time. There's always more to do. But there's other times, which is what I hope happens in this case, where I'm gonna ask for an additional three months, where I should have plenty of time to prep. And if I work backwards, and backwards plan, I'm gonna put little tickers in my calendar. Hey, start writing your closing here. Hey, start writing your opening here. Hey, start printing your exhibits here. If I follow that and sure there'll be curve balls along the way, I should walk into the courtroom more prepared than everyone else. That's always the goal. I wanna know more than everyone else in terms of the facts and I wanna be more prepared than everyone else so that I can handle the curve balls that happen in courtroom better than anyone else. You got a follow up Evelyn? sawhead. speaker-0: I was just wondering how do you prepare awareness for trial? speaker-1: So there's really two types of witnesses, ones that are cooperative with me and are free to say, hey, yeah, let's set up an interview and we'll talk for two hours. And they're really not combative. Most of the experts are like that. Most of the, well, I'm not going to say the law enforcement agents are like that. They're pretty combative, but some witnesses are just people that happen to witness a crime or see something that happened. And they're easy peasy. You just talk to them, get the information, you put them up on the witness stand and they give you exactly what they told you. Other ones are very hostile. ⁓ alleged victims can be hostile to us because we're defense attorneys, ⁓ detectives and, and, and law enforcement agents can be very, be very hostile because they either don't trust defense attorneys, which is fair. ⁓ or they don't like defense attorneys. ⁓ so they don't always cooperate. And sometimes they just say, you know what? We're not going to talk to you. I have no subpoena power in terms of making people get on the stand and tell them what I want them to say or tell me what I want them to say. So there'll definitely be times where witnesses just don't answer questions, basic questions that I want them to answer and say, I'd rather not answer that. And that's the role of a defense attorney. You don't always get what you need. speaker-0: role of a defense attorney. also kind of coaching them up, right? So I feel like we see that that kind of stuff in the news, which is exciting. Cole, you had your hand up earlier. Did you have a question for Jonathan? speaker-2: Yes, my question was when appealing to a judge for more time, like how do you appeal to the judge? speaker-1: Well, I got a lot of excuses as to why I think I need more time. First, ⁓ I wasn't on the case until Friday, so he didn't take into account my schedule at all, and I'm out of pocket for almost all of May and a little bit of June, so I literally won't be able to work on this case. Two, I need about four experts that he didn't know about when he set the docket date. Three, there's a lot of evidence and discovery that I have not been given by the government yet, and so I'm not in the preparation to prepare for trial. And I think I wrote another one there. I was literally just game planning this out. Oh, and the World Cup is going on on July 12th. So the witness travel that is gonna be necessary for that trial will just be entirely burdensome on everyone. mean, tickets have skyrocketed to four and $5,000. So for all those reasons, Your Honor, I'm requesting a continuance until September. speaker-0: And in addition to that, we've got Memorial Federal Holiday plus July 4th Independence Day Holiday. And the way the Army does, y'all don't get three day weekends. The Army somehow adds on a fourth day. So usually around federal holidays, I'm very aware the Army takes four days of a weekend. So we'll add that to your list. And that's really cool that our students from a mock trial team at Moore High School get to see the behind the scenes. from a JAG officer. That's cool. Let's go back to you, Sophia. I want to learn a little bit more about what you're interested, what your passions are, and why you're interested in becoming an attorney. speaker-2: Well, I actually didn't start off wanting to be an attorney. Last year, I started off wanting to be a pilot. I was in aviation, but it just didn't stick with me. And my love was for reading and writing. And I know that as a lawyer, that's a lot of what you do. So. speaker-3: What year are you, speaker-2: I tried out mock trial, so. speaker-3: What year are you? speaker-2: Could you repeat that? I'm in 10th grade. speaker-1: What year are you in? Okay. And all my follow up question is what role were you playing in the mock trial? What kind of case was it? speaker-2: I've always been a I've always been or I've always tried to be a prosecutor. I really want to be a Prosecutor when I get older speaker-1: Why, well, the follow-up question is why? What makes you want to be a prosecutor? speaker-2: I just, I don't know, it just kind of sticks with me more. ⁓ really like to, I just feel a little bit more argumentative and I really like the fact that as a prosecutor you do get a rebuttal, so you kind of get the last say. speaker-1: In some states, in some states, there are certain states that you just go once, but that rebuttal is awesome. It's the best part. And that's where you're really like, basically like that standup comedy where you're doing crowd work, where everything that guy just said is wrong. And here's why it's awesome. speaker-0: That's great. I haven't heard that relation between being, like you said earlier, a showman or a comedian in the court. I see those on shows and movies, but it's fun to actually hear you as an attorney share that. speaker-1: synapses. It's the synapses that are firing. ⁓ Like an intense conversation. the timing timing is everything with comedy, but certainly with trial work. It's tough to relate to anything else. Other than that, I can't think of anything. Maybe like an intense conversation with a spouse or a parent or something like that, where like everything's kind of jazzed up. Yeah, comedy being on stage being in that moment, the spotlights on you. Everything's on it's the best you feel alive. speaker-0: awesome. I'm getting some chatter here about Sophia that you are an excellent writer. Tell us a little bit about how you became so good at writing and that some of your work without having as much experience on the mock trial team that the team's actually using. Tell us about that. speaker-2: Well, I give all the credit to my mom. She started, it all started with books and reading. I started reading at a very early age and then that turned into writing and just experimenting with writing stories and essays about things that I'm passionate about. And I felt like with Mock trial, it wasn't really any different. I mean, you're kind of just telling a story. So. speaker-1: That's awesome. speaker-0: Don't think. speaker-1: I was going to ask if she does any creative writing. speaker-2: Yes, I am in a creative writing class. speaker-1: Okay, yeah, I mean, I mean, that's a lot of especially as a defense attorney, we do a lot of having to be creative, creative defenses, creative arguments, emotional appeals, factual appeals. So yeah, keep keep doing that. Keep writing. And what I found with writing, and I'm getting published in an article in a couple of weeks here for something I wrote is when you write, you really wrestle with the wrestle with it. The best ⁓ when you think about something, it doesn't really like You don't critique it as sufficiently, but when you write and you put it down to paper, it really crystallizes it and it prepares you for whatever's next. speaker-0: Awesome. Sophia, what's your follow-up question for Jonathan? speaker-2: ⁓ My follow-up question is how is the military justice system different from civilian courts? speaker-1: So different, so different. ⁓ One thing you'll probably be surprised to hear is in your moot court or your mock trials, we have unanimous jury verdicts in the criminal system where everybody on the jury, be it 12 people or eight people have to agree that a person did a crime, someone, a jury of your peers before you actually potentially lose your liberties and get a conviction. In the army, you lose that. It's actually three fourths of the jury. So if you have eight people on the jury, only six of them need to agree. There could be two jurors who are like, no, I think this person's innocent. You still lose. I need three. I need three when there's eight. So there's not unanimous verdicts. The jury is comprised all of officers. officers or enlisted, but people that the general kind of hand picks from the base. Whereas a jury pool is comprised of just normal everyday citizens through all walks of life. A lot of the rest of the system is very similar though. The rules of evidence are very similar. So the transition from the district attorney's office in Pennsylvania to the army, the stuff in the courtroom, I feel very comfortable with. It's the same rules of evidence. It's the same basic types of crimes with the same elements that the government has to prove. ⁓ And the courtroom really does look very, very similar. It's all the procedural stuff that is completely different. How you file motions, how you communicate with the court. The formatting, the templates, all very different. ⁓ But the stuff that happens in court is very similar to what a state looks like. speaker-0: Sophia, does that surprise you? Is that some new information? speaker-2: is new information. I actually do plan on ⁓ going into the military after I finish law school, so that's very good like information to hear. speaker-1: That's awesome. What branch are you considering? Or I recommend considering them all. You never know what's gonna happen. speaker-2: was, well, my dad was in the Air Force for, I think, 20 plus years. So obviously I was considering going in that branch, but I mean, I'm open to everything. speaker-1: Yeah, I applied to the Air Force as well. I actually got into both and it was a real tough decision because my dad was in the Air Force as well for 20 years. He has a retirement from them. And he was like, what are you doing? Go to the Air Force. ⁓ It just seemed like I'm kind of a meathead if you can't tell yet. The Army kind of works for me. We work out over lunch. Nobody cares if I'm going to the range and shooting weapons. The culture for the Army just kind of works for me. But yeah, really kind of speaker-5: and speaker-1: get a feel for the cultures, and then if the Air Force culture works for you, awesome. I've worked with a lot of Air Force lawyers and they're pretty great. speaker-3: Culture works for you. speaker-0: Yes, and I do have to jump in here because of course I am a proud Air Force veteran. Sophia, Jonathan, I can't have said it any better. You really have to look at with the different branches, look at the culture. There's a lot of jokes out there about the different branches, but some of them can be a little true, the stereotypes and the different branches. Really quick, Jonathan, can you share with Sophia if there are opportunities to... go into the military before becoming an attorney or does she have to wait until after law school? What does that look like? speaker-1: There's a lot of different paths. ⁓ One of them is ROTC. I don't know if you've looked at that at all, but they'll pay for your undergrad. And then if you did really well, you can say, hey, I know normally after ROTC, you just join up and become an officer, but I want to delay that. It's called an ed delay program. And they'll let you go to law school for three years, and then you can apply to the Jag Corps and you can get that paid for. So there's a lot of paths to getting into the Jag Corps through the ROTC, through law school, into the Jag Corps itself. The way I did it is also a way where I just went to college, went to law school, and then applied. It's called direct commission. I knew nothing about the military, had no interaction with it whatsoever, and just applied. And then the next day I put a uniform on and was a soldier. ⁓ There's other paths where you can enlist first and then switch from what they call green to gold. And you can do what's called a FLEP program. where they pick very, very select, either enlisted paralegals or officers to go, hey, we're gonna pay for your law school, actually. You go to law school for three years, we'll keep you off the books. You'll check in every once in a while, maybe do an internship over the summer. And then when you're done law school, come on down, you ⁓ work with us for at least six years. So there's a lot of different paths ⁓ to becoming an Army JAG or an Air Force JAG. You just gotta figure out which one works for you, both financially and kind of where you're at socially in your life. speaker-0: Perfect, thank you for sharing those details, Jonathan. I'm gonna shift over quickly to Mr. Hackard. I know he has to jump on a different computer. Okay, you're jumping onto a different computer. ⁓ this one works if you wanna try unmuting. ⁓ no, here he comes. We're making the tech work. All right, Mr. Heckert. speaker-2: Yes, good morning. ⁓ speaker-0: you for getting our students, our mock trial team ready for a JAG attorney interview here. Can you share with us, ⁓ Mr. Heckert, how being able to have an attorney like Jonathan, who's also a soldier, ⁓ spend his time, his one hour this morning with your students, how has that ⁓ your job ⁓ as an instructor there at Moore High School? speaker-2: Well, I was shaking my head. Yes. So many times I think I'm going to have to go to the chiropractor because it's great to hear. ⁓ he reinforced a lot of what I've taught in this classroom about the journey to becoming an attorney. from a personal standpoint, I really respect the fact. mean, my great grandfather was wounded in the Pacific. My grandfather wounded in Chosin reservoir in Korea, dad wounded in Vietnam. come from a long line of veterans and I really appreciate. anybody that makes that ultimate sacrifice to ⁓ go out there and protect that country. I've got a lot of students that join the Marines and all the armed services through my classes, because I have ⁓ every armed service come in and give a talk to every one of my classes, because I just think it's an unbelievable path to take to adulthood. So I really appreciate everything that he said today, because I tell my kids all the time, it's all about grit. grit in this world is going to get you up and above your peers. And ⁓ his journey is nothing but grit. I really appreciate that today. Thank you. speaker-0: Awesome. Thank you, Mr. Heckert. And thank you for preparing such a great ⁓ group of students. I want to hop over back to Sophia. This was your first time on a career conversation. ⁓ What was your experience like? Was it helpful for you to learn something new about ⁓ the different avenues of becoming a military JAG officer? speaker-2: Yes, it is very helpful. I'm always trying to find out things that I can do in high school or in college or other alternative paths that I can take. So this was very helpful for me. speaker-0: Well, we're excited that you were able to join us today. Now over to Evelyn. This was your first time on a career coaching. Share with us, ⁓ what did you learn from our conversation with Jonathan? What did you pick up? Well, some of the things I picked up is, wow, like, I actually feel like I want to be a trial attorney now because I was really thinking of what type of attorney I wanted to be. And this isn't my first time doing this. I've done this, but differently, not in a Zoom call. I actually went to like a type of like meeting or can't really, don't really know how it was called, but the thing was that it was an estate planning. So it was an estate lawyer and she was just talking about all the facts of like what she does and basically something like this. And I didn't really have too much interest in this and that, but in this conversation I have a. lots of interest. was very interesting and I got to learn a lot too of like how it is and yeah and I do have one more question for Donathan. Please. What advice would you give to someone considering a career like yours? speaker-2: Sure. speaker-1: would say, ⁓ so invest, but invest in three different things. One is invest in yourself and your skills. The more skills you can obtain in these upcoming years, the better. ⁓ They say AI is gonna replace all our jobs. I just don't think that's true. I think people who know how to use AI will replace folks who don't know how to use it. So invest in your skills, learn how to use that. And then if AI is gonna do all the reading and writing for us, What's the skill we're all going to need? Relationships, talking, networking, communicating. Those human skills, the better you can get at that, the more you can put yourself above other people, whether it's in college, law school, or whatever you do in life. Because everybody, the great democratization of information is everybody can write an amazing brief. Everybody can read 300 pages of information instantly with the use of AI. But can everybody? Can everybody do an interview like this that we're doing? So use these skills that you're learning in this class to leverage yourself above competitors as you go forward. Invest in your relationships. I was one of my greatest regrets is focusing too much on academics in law school. I was dedicated to be like top of the class, make law review, get straight A's, do really well. And I didn't make a lot of friends and that was foolish. I should have networked more. I should have stopped outlining on the weekends. I made myself outline every Saturday, like who does that? And instead I should have went out. I should have hung out with people more and leverage those relationships, which I did a lot more once I got to the DA's office, but I wish I'd learned that lesson sooner. So take that with you to college. Those relationships you're gonna form will be critical. ⁓ And then yeah, invest in stocks now. I really regret not using all my server money and not just buying a couple of ⁓ stocks when I was in my 20s. ⁓ I don't even know what they would be worth now. So invest in your skills, invest in your relationship, and invest in the stock market now. speaker-0: love that that's such great advice those three buckets y'all have to pay attention we are at our time but I do want to hit Cooper and Colton there might be one more question are you okay with that Jonathan do you have another speaker-1: Yeah, I'm good till nine. I have to talk to a client who's who's in jail at Leavenworth at nine o'clock. So I have some time. speaker-0: And then you also have to meet with the the judge to make sure you get that extension and speaker-1: for him to email me back. ⁓ no. I'm little nervous about this conversation. speaker-0: Mr. Hackert, are we okay with another couple of minutes? Okay, all right, so Sophia, I see your hand up. Let me go to Cooper Colt and then I'll come back to you. All right, so Cooper, you have been on all of our, I think just about all of our more high school interviews. How have these interviews with Jonathan and with all of our other guests, how have those interviews helped you grow more confident in your leadership and your communication? speaker-2: Well, they've helped me relate with some of these people because I they talk about their background lives a lot and I get to see that they're not so different from me. And this one, I also got to see some of the stuff and the law that I didn't know before is like about jury selection and as well as how the be authentic because if you're not then The jury's gonna be able to tell. speaker-0: That's right. That's right. Be yourself. Be you. ⁓ That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that, Cooper. And then over to you, Colt. Same question. How have these interviews helped you grow more confident in your leadership or your communication or even deciding, hey, this is the direction that I want to go in? speaker-2: Well, I feel like this interview specifically has helped me decide what type of lawyer I want to be. I haven't fully decided, but I am more leaning towards the trial attorney now. And just looking throughout all these interviews, people talk a lot about the social aspects and it just resonates with me that way. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, the social aspects like relationships, is that what you're talking about? And then in the professional world, that's networking and exactly what Jonathan talked about. Why make all of those outlines on the weekends, right? When you can, you know, just go and I won't say go and party and do all the things. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: but stewarding relationships, whether it's just a coffee and you can talk about an outline, right? But whatever it looks like for you to be you and be natural about stewarding those relationships. So thanks for that highlight too, Jonathan. And Sophia, we're gonna come back to you. You your hand up. speaker-2: I just wanted to ask when Jonathan was talking about networking, as an attorney now and even like in school, how do you have any advice on like how to, I guess, time manage? So that way, you know, you're getting the best of everything. speaker-1: Yeah. So I've developed, ⁓ I do all my flow state work, difficult thinking work. try to do it in the morning. So every night before I leave for work, I have a yellow pad right next to me at all times. I don't know if you can see it. And I write like my top three things that I want to get done tomorrow. If I get those three things done tomorrow, great day. Obviously I add like 10 things to that throughout the day, but as long as I get those three things done, ⁓ I'll be really pumped about the success of that day. So I do as much of my flow state work in the morning uninterrupted. I try not to log in to email. I try not to answer my phone too much. I try not to set up phone calls, even though I have to talk to that prisoner today at zero nine. ⁓ I get as much of my flow state work done in the morning. And then after I eat lunch, it's a lot of dopamine hits where I'm either knocking out emails, knocking out motions, or knocking out phone calls or investigations where I do a lot more ⁓ interactions with folks, which includes obviously relationships and calling people. So you really have to divide your time, I think. I think if you let yourself be interrupted by the constant ticker, the emails, or the phone calls, you can never get into that flow state that is so needed to write like you do, Sophia. If you're getting interrupted all the time, it just doesn't work. So you gotta separate the two. speaker-0: That's so good. think I needed to hear that as well. Any final questions from our students before I hand it over back to Jonathan? Final questions, Mr. Heckert, your opportunity. Cooper, go ahead. speaker-2: Yes, I had one earlier I'd like to ask specifically about expert witnesses. whenever you have an expert that's opposing your expert, how do you deal with that? speaker-1: So first of all, experts are usually, they know their air, they're called experts for a reason. So I do not wrestle with their science. That is not the way to approach an expert witness because they will beat you every time they have advanced degrees and they know their science up down left, right. They're published. Generally they've been experts before they know how to play this game. So from a defense attorney standpoint, there's always things you can get out of an expert, even an adversarial expert that is helpful to your case. So just get those things out of them. There are concessions that in your case that any expert, even on the opposition, will have to make. So find those needles in a haystack and get them even out of the opposing expert. And then really try not to discuss the bad information that's gonna get your client convicted. The prosecutor will do that. speaker-0: Awesome, great question Cooper. All right, Jonathan, the floor is yours. You have a minute or two for any final words of wisdom or encouragement for our mock trial students from Moore High School. speaker-1: Well, I love what Cooper said that he's just like me. I am just like you. ⁓ I'm a normal person. And I think what I've found as I've traversed very serious rooms throughout my life, I've been in rooms with generals, I've been in rooms of politicians, district attorneys, I've been in rooms with people from all walks of life, and we're all very similar. So don't think that you don't belong in any of those rooms. Don't think that, ⁓ I didn't come from wealth and therefore being a judge is out of reach. or I didn't go to an Ivy league school or I'm not going to an Ivy league school. Therefore I can't be this or don't belong in those rooms. And I'm kind of stealing ⁓ former president Obama's lines here, but he said this, he said he was very surprised as he was in different rooms. He realized everyone is just a normal person. So don't think you don't belong in any of those rooms. You absolutely do. And that's exactly what I did, Cooper. I went to work at a law firm as a paralegal. I thought that was my ceiling. And when I went there, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, they're just like me. I could do that. ⁓ And so could you. So I hope in this conversation, you realize that, yeah, being a lawyer takes some initial just skillsets and intelligence, reading and writing, but I'm just like you and you could do it too and even be better. speaker-0: That's right. You guys, I love that you've had an opportunity to learn a different angle of your interest in being an attorney. Thank you, Jonathan, for spending time with us. We know that your plate is full and we took a little bit of your flow time this morning. Jonathan Harar, JAG, US Army JAG officer, ⁓ incredible guest and exciting conversation with our co-host from Moore High School mock trial team, including Cole Cooper. Evelyn and Sophia and their instructor Cliff Heckert. You've been listening to AccessCo Leaders Career Conversations. We'll see you next time. speaker-1: Thank you all.