Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 861: The Defeat of Coronado

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Ep. 861: The Defeat of Coronado · The MeatEater Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
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  Speaker 3: That's f I R S T L I t E
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  Speaker 3: dot com.
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  Speaker 1: Join today by Peter Stark. Rejoined by Peter Stark, author
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  Speaker 1: Adventure Here to talk about the insane, insane, almost hallucinogenic, crazy,
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  Speaker 1: crazy Coronado Expedition. Yeah, a hallucinogenic quality to the journey
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  Speaker 1: was like some of the first conquis, the doors to
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  Speaker 1: push their way up into the American Great Plains, the
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  Speaker 1: Texas Panhandle and just the wild things, the wild violent
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  Speaker 1: defeat that befell the Coronado Expedition.
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  Speaker 2: And part of the reason why it was so wild
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  Speaker 2: and crazy and hallucinatory is they had no idea of
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  Speaker 2: what was up there, no zero zero. They called it
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  Speaker 2: ill nord date Mesterioso, the Mysterious North, And if you
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: look at the maps from that era, you go north
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  Speaker 2: of a little bit north of where Mexico City is now,
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  Speaker 2: and it's just it's literally just blank spaces. And then
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: they kind of sort of shoved China and over there
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  Speaker 2: on the on the left side, like China's right about
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  Speaker 2: somewhere off there, and they're thinking that California some island
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: and and they say, well, we're thinking, like China and
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  Speaker 2: Greater India are near the island of California. And so
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: these guys are like, you know, talking about going into
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  Speaker 2: the unknown. They are utterly clueless, and they have a
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  Speaker 2: huge expedition and a huge mission.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to tell that whole story Peter's new book,
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  Speaker 1: The Lost Cities of Elnorte, Coronado's Quest, the Unconquered West,
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  Speaker 1: and the Birth of American Indian Resistance. And Peter was
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  Speaker 1: on before. I'm trying to remember, like you were on
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  Speaker 1: with you when you.
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  Speaker 2: Was Young Washington when we did and we had a
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  Speaker 2: we had a really fun, wide ranging conversation. It was
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  Speaker 2: about my book Young Washington was about young George Washington
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  Speaker 2: in his twenties when he was a real mess up
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  Speaker 2: in the in the wilderness of the Ohio Valley and
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  Speaker 2: you know, accidentally set off the French and Indian War,
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  Speaker 2: and you know stuff like that.
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  Speaker 1: I want to touch on that for a minute because
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  Speaker 1: there's a thing in there that I don't think was
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  Speaker 1: relevant at the time. Okay, we talked before the assassination
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: attempt on Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania. Oh, we talked before that, right, Yes,
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  Speaker 1: want me tell you a funny story about that. It
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: has do with Washington. Okay, But first I want to
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  Speaker 1: tell you this. This is a personal thing. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: going to embarrass you. This is a person.
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  Speaker 2: You're gonna embarrass me all you want. And I've got
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  Speaker 2: plenty of counter ammunition too. I might even have mentioned
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: this team before.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: But like a thing like we were buddies, way like
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  Speaker 1: we were friends long before I had kids. Yeah, so long.
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  Speaker 2: Before you had a TV show, Long before you had
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  Speaker 2: I mean you were building closets. The last I remembering
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: stone closet shelving.
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  Speaker 1: This is in the late nineties, I think late nineties.
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  Speaker 1: We were buddies. You had hunting, hunting, yeah right, My
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: oldest kid is about to turn sixteen, so way before that.
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  Speaker 1: But you had young kids, like you had young, young kids,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: young young kids. And the thing that was like was
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: so funny. I always wanted to tell you this. Maybe
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I have told you this. You'd like drop in. You know,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: we'd be hanging out, different writers and stuff, be hanging out,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: and you'd like drop in for a beer, right, you
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: drop in for a beer, and we'd be in for
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: like a bunch of beers. But you drop in for
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: a beer and like race home. And I always thought
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: that guy's a lunatic. Yeah, what in the world would
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  Speaker 1: you go now? Five o'clock? Totally uncle, It's like this
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: guy's got his schedule all wacked out. You know, you
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  Speaker 1: gotta run well. I just feel like that dude's got
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  Speaker 1: his priorities crooked. On the other one.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if we talked about this on the
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  Speaker 2: the last time we were here, but you know, we
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  Speaker 2: had this classic crazy hunt on the Missouri Breaks. It
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: was a second time you went down there, and the
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  Speaker 2: first time we went down with Sandy Fraser, and then
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  Speaker 2: the next year we went with Fred Aflee. And remember that,
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  Speaker 2: just like this incredible arctic front moved in and I
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: just remember the first night the campfire flames were like
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  Speaker 2: flat on the ground. You know, there weren't there was
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  Speaker 2: no heat. They were just flat. It was a big,
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  Speaker 2: like a big campfire, and you know, that's kind of
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  Speaker 2: my standard for campfires that don't work.
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  Speaker 1: And then the.
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  Speaker 2: Next day, you know, there was already ice floating in
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  Speaker 2: the river that that first day that we were paddling,
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  Speaker 2: and then we camped with a flat campfire. And then
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  Speaker 2: the next day, or might have been the day after that,
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  Speaker 2: we started paddling again, and the river was just clogged
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  Speaker 2: with ice. I mean, you know, like flowing like like
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  Speaker 2: you had to dig your way through it. And I
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: grew up on a frozen lake in Wisconsin, so I've
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  Speaker 2: got a lot of experience on what to do and
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  Speaker 2: not to do on ice because I've done a lot
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  Speaker 2: of things you don't do, and you know, figured it out.
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  Speaker 1: And so so.
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  Speaker 2: We were you and and and Matt were in one
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  Speaker 2: canoe and Fred and I were in another canoe, and
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  Speaker 2: we started paddling across and we were planning on going
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  Speaker 2: down river that whole lower stretch of the Missouri, you
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  Speaker 2: know that the really remote stretch.
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  Speaker 1: Its like once you're in, you're in.
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  Speaker 2: And and Fred and I got part way out in
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  Speaker 2: the river and we're like digging through these ice floes,
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  Speaker 2: and I was saying, you know, if we tip over here,
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  Speaker 2: we're just dead. You know, there's like there's there's not
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  Speaker 2: even a question about it. They can't move through it.
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  Speaker 2: You can't move through it. You couldn't climb onto it,
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  Speaker 2: you couldn't swim through it. And and the water is
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  Speaker 2: so cold. I mean, I guess you could climb into
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  Speaker 2: a swamp canoe, but that would last not very long.
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  Speaker 2: And you're not getting that canoe to sure and so
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  Speaker 2: and so I said to Fred, you know, I don't
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  Speaker 2: know about this. This this feels really, you know, sketchy
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  Speaker 2: to me. And Fred turns back. He's in the boxes. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: we're daddy's now, we shouldn't be doing this stuff.
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  Speaker 1: And then we try. Then I'm like, I don't know,
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  Speaker 1: so if you die, who cares? And then we do.
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  Speaker 2: And then we deliver this to the Ranilla brothers and
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: they say, we do this all the time, like on
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: the mass. You know, now it's like you were pre
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  Speaker 2: children spouses. So yeah, you know that's the standards change.
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  Speaker 1: What I wanted to tell you about, I want to
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  Speaker 1: dive into Coronado because, like I said, it's just it's
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  Speaker 1: the most fascinating story. But uh Asani So a writer
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  Speaker 1: named Selena Zito wrote a book called Butler. Oh she's
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: like very quick because she's from Pennsylvania. Okay, but she's
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  Speaker 1: a calumnist and writer. Uh. And after the assassination attempt,
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  Speaker 1: she did like a very quick turn book on the
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  Speaker 1: assassination attemp called Butler. It's her backyard, you know, on
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  Speaker 1: the phone and she was saying, you know, that's the
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  Speaker 1: second president to be shot there. I hadn't heard this. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, who else Washington? Yeah, during the like
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  Speaker 1: in the lead up to the French and Indian War,
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  Speaker 1: like like General Washington was shot there. Yes, yes, he
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  Speaker 1: was not a general, he was, no, but he was.
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  Speaker 1: He was. He was like a lower he's like a
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  Speaker 1: lower ranking English officer sent on a mission.
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  Speaker 2: And they got in some No, he wasn't an English officer.
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  Speaker 2: He wanted to be a British officer. They wouldn't let
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  Speaker 2: him into the British officer rings. So he was a
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  Speaker 2: Virginia colonial militia officer. And that was a cause of
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  Speaker 2: resentment for the next I mean, we're still living with
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  Speaker 2: it today.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the but you tell that story, but
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  Speaker 1: it's just funny that, like, you know, messing up every detail.
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  Speaker 1: It was funny when she said that to me, like
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  Speaker 1: he was the second one, you know, I meaning that.
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  Speaker 2: It was in that vicinity well, and I think there
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  Speaker 2: you know, there were several times when he was really
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  Speaker 2: shot at, and and one was you know, during the uh,
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  Speaker 2: you know Braddock's defeat, when you know the British column
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  Speaker 2: under Braddock, General Braddock was marching towards Fort Duquine, which
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  Speaker 2: now Pittsburgh, and you know, they're like the might of
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  Speaker 2: the British Empire, marching through the woods and in columns
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  Speaker 2: like the red coats and columns, and thinking they're invincible
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  Speaker 2: until they get close to what's now Pittsburgh, and all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden, all hell breaks lose and they can't
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  Speaker 2: even see they can't even see anyone to shoot at
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  Speaker 2: because the Indian warriors are so well hidden. And there
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  Speaker 2: they're also joined by like kind of you know, French
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  Speaker 2: guys who are also good woods woods fighters, and so
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  Speaker 2: they don't even know who to shoot. And Washington is
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  Speaker 2: the one who survives that that battle, even though he
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  Speaker 2: was he was an aid to camp to Braddock because Braddock,
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  Speaker 2: they wouldn't let him in as an officer yet he
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  Speaker 2: wanted to tag along, you know that Washington did, and
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  Speaker 2: he ended up Braddock was wounded, mortally wounded, and almost
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  Speaker 2: every British officer was killed almost instantly. And officers, the
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  Speaker 2: British officers are wearing really bright uniforms. And I've got
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  Speaker 2: to look into this just the actual color, even though
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: I'm partly color blind, but the look into well, my
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  Speaker 2: wife helps me on this a lot. And uh, but
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  Speaker 2: the officers were really easily recognizable because they had, you know,
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  Speaker 2: really scarlet uniforms, and the regular soldiers were red but
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  Speaker 2: not so red. And and and Washington, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: officers just got wiped out instantly. And and Washington survived
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  Speaker 2: that battle. And he had like four bullet holes through
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  Speaker 2: his like haull and his coat, and he had I
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: think at least two horses shot out from under him.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm pretty sure this has been some years since
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I did this research, but I think one of the
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  Speaker 2: reasons he wasn't killed instantly is because he wasn't wearing
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  Speaker 2: a British Royal Officers god uh uniform and it was
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: more like a you know, like a like the buff
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: colored thing they were wearing.
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  Speaker 1: Would if that's what if that's like if you like,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: you know, you take history and move it down to
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  Speaker 1: these like these like crystalline moments, you know, of like
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  Speaker 1: turning points. If that like the fact that he didn't
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: have that bright red coat, right, yeah, that the continental
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Army would have the army would have never won, you
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: know in America, would not have happened.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I mean, and it was. It's a really
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  Speaker 2: interesting moment. And now there's a film that's coming out
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: about Young called Young Washington, which you know, I think
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: they used my book as a source, but it's not
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: like based on my book, license your book. It's you know,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: these are historical events, but it's the thing I'm I've
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: written about. But I think that's a highlighted moment in
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: the in the film, just what we're talking about.
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  Speaker 1: You know, who was there, you know, it was there
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  Speaker 1: that day. I do boon. Let me tell you what
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  Speaker 1: booned it.
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  Speaker 2: Your buddy, As I remember this, he was like a
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: wagon driver driving a freight wagon, right, I mean, you're
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the I defer to you on boone because he you know,
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  Speaker 2: he was like a lowly Yeah, and he and his buddy,
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  Speaker 2: I think his cousin. It was also driving a freight
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  Speaker 2: wagon and so they saw what was happening. I think
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  Speaker 2: they just crossed the river, the Monongohela, and when all
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: this chaos broke off, so they cleverly unhitched their mules
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: from the wagons, turned around and ran with the teams
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  Speaker 2: in the other direction.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Is that right? I like to imagine that that was
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: that that was deeply influential for Boone and his knowledge
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: of like gorilla. Yes, warfare attack for sure in like
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: bush warm Sorry always happens me.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: But but that was that was bush war extraordinary and
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: it was so dramatic And yeah, I think you're totally
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: right that that that was a really formative experience with him.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: And he could have you know, he could have kept
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: you know, uh courageously riding his freight wagon forward, and
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: you know, it just wouldn't have worked.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: That it was it was on that trip who was Boone?
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Like it was on that trip on that campaign the
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Boone met was John Finley.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, one of the other teamsters had been to Kentucky.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: It was on that campaign about Boone learned about like
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: he learned there is a gap to get through to
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: the Kentucky through and then set off to find the
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap from that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, because Finley had been involved in Indian trade down
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: the Ohio River, Okay, prior to his service as a teamster,
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: And so it was like a campfire story, I believe,
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: according to Boone's you know Boone story, It's like there's
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: sitting around the campfire late at night and Finley's telling
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: him about what's over the mountains.
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  Speaker 1: So if I was gonna do a movie about this,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: I would have Boone and him talking about all this,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: you know, the Cumberland Gap and all that, and I'd
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: have Washington to come on and be like, get it
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: straighten up, man, you know what I mean, like interrupting
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: man scene would Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was Finley. He didn't do any surveying,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: did he. I'm thinking of a different guy.
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: But but there was the Duke of Cumberland did a
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: survey I believe, over like in that in that area.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't think Finley was surveying.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I mean because one of the big problems was that
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: George Washington and you know, these soon to be founding
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: fathers were big landholders. Yeah, and the lands over the mountains,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: you know, which were really Indian lands and with many
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: different tribes and that they wanted to survey those lands
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: and you know, like steak them out. And so in
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: seventeen seventy four, Washington and other founding would be soon
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: to be Founding fathers sent a team of surveyors over
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the mountains and the Shawneese got really mad and and
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: you know, pull their equipment off and I think sent
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: them home.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: But that was really the beginning of this of this.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: You know, that whole Ohio Valley conflict was those first
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: surveyors coming in and like staking things out. Yeah, and
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: so Washington had a big part in that too. Yeah, dude,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: mix it up. Let's jump the corner. Ye yeah, talk
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: about mixing it up back.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: In time to we're gonna go over go. So we're
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: gonna go from seventeen seventy four to fifteen forty Okay,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: we're going We're going back a couple hundred years. So
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: now I want to I want to let you set
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: the scene here a little bit, but I want to
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: bring up and then I find interesting about this, and
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: you can you can set scene like where the New
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: World was at at this point. But you're you're you're
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: just always trained like when you're a kid and you're
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: reading about these early explorers, You're you're always trained a
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: little bit to like laugh at the I the some
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: of their notions, the Fountain of Youth, the Cities of Gold,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: right right, Oh, how stupid, how silly they thought that
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: there was these like cities of gold that were up
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: in New Mexico or Texas. You know, how naive, right,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: But they are hauling, like the Spanish are hauling fortunes
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: exactly out of South America, and like it's like it's
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: they weren't making stuff up. No, No, I mean, like
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: they had arrived in cities, they had like legitimately found
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: cities where they're like these people were loaded and with
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: the gold.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: There were empires, you know, literal empires and emperors, and
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: so like they ransomed Pizarro ransomed the Incan emperor for
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: a literal room full of gold, I mean literally, yeah,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: and then they killed them and they melted down the
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: golden bars and you know, shifted.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: But so it wasn't insane. It wasn't like there's got
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: to be more of this out there, you know.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean that's a really good framing for
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: the story, because you know, we know the you know,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: if we want to, I don't want to go too
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: far back. But you know, the Portuguese started sending ships
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: in the fourteen hundreds to India and getting spices and
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: you know, discovering those were worth a lot, you know,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: very very valuable trade. And then the Spanish are saying, wait,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: we want to hunk of that action. And then Columbus
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: comes along and says, comes up with his wacko idea.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: It wasn't that wacko, but he said he needed a lot
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: of more. Need to do it. He said to the
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: King and Queen of Spain. He convinced them to fund
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: an expedition to go west to find the Indies. So
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: you know, we know the story. He runs in to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: this unexpected continent, the Americas, and then you know the
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: spa is the Spanish uh conky stars and explorers work
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: their way through in very few number of years. And
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: so in fifteen twenty that's when Cortes, illegally against the
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: king's orders, marches to Teno cheat Lan which is now
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Mexico City, and knox.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Off is that supposed pronounced that? I hope so.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: An accident end and and he knocks off the Aztec Empire.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And one of the reasons he can do that with
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: like a few hundred men. I mean, one, he has
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: these horses with armor which are like you know, sherman
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: tanks compared to what the native warriors have. And the
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: other is he's very lever in he's he finds the
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: tribes more than triban they're like culture civilizations who are
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: enemies of the Aztecs. And he says to those guys, hey,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: I can to help you knock off the Aztec emperor.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And so that now he has thousands of enemy warriors
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: and that's how he knocks off the Aztecs so quickly.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: And then and that's fifteen twenty, and there's all sorts
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: of wealth and gold and empires and land and you know, incredible,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: as you say, loads of treasure and that that's fifteen twenty.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: And then fifteen thirty three, Pizarro finds his way into
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: the Andes, you know, in west South and South America,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: and he finds the Inca Empire and and you know,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: and the emperor, and you know, kidnaps the emperor room
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: full of gold, you know, piles of gold being shipped
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: out of out of the Inca Empire out of the
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Aztec Empire. And then so that's fifteen thirty three, fifteen
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: thirty six. This rumor comes down that they're more wealthy
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: empires to the north and nobody knows what's up there, and.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Some of that comes out of like there's that explain that,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: like Alvarez Expedition.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not Navarez, who was the name Novarez, Okay, but
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: the Kabeza de Vaca.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like the Moor, like the dude called like
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: the Moor and Cabeza d Vodka and those guys have
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: just that crazy as.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: It's so crazy, and that kind of sets the tone.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: So that was I have to get the dates right,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: but that was the late fifteen twenties, and somewhere in there,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: you know, Punce dal Lyon was in there, and you know,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: the found a Youth story was emerging. But they were
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: they were really trying, the Spaniards were really trying to
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: get onto from from the Caribbean islands like Cuba and
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: what's now the Dominican Republic, get onto Florida and and
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: and start colonizing for and you know, make that part
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: of the Spanish Empire. So that and they were having
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: a hard time doing it. And so in the late
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: fifteen twenties there was a huge expedition sent under the
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: commander was a guy named Navarez, and that essentially this
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: huge expedition mini ships got completely wiped out by hurricanes
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: and then by Native warriors. And to make a long
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: story short, four guys end up surviving, and they managed
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: to raft their way partly down the Gulf Coast from
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: from Florida, and some of the main guys make it
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: that far and then they die. But they raft part
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: way down the Golf Court coast from Florida, and I
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: think they get maybe about as far as the Mississippi
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: River delta and then you know, wor shipwrecks, raft recks, disaster,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: and then the four survivors start walking and they know,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: like New Spain of some way that somewhere.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: That way, dude when you look at him, but it
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: is the craziest thing. They're like they're on the Golf
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: coast and they're and they're Mexico City, you know, And
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: and there are four guys, and then there are dozens
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: of way inland, and there.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Are dozens and dozens of Indian tribes, you know, and
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: and these are like four random guys coming up from
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: the coast, and part of what what saves them is
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: among the four there is a Moorish slave named Esteban,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: and so he has what I was named after. Yeah,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: he's a dude. Yeah right, you could probably talk your
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: way through dozens of tribes thousands of miles to arrive
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: in Mexico City. And so, so, you know, he had
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: black skin, and he was really he was like a
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: good performer. He could sing, and he could dance, and
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: he had he had like bells on his wrists and
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: colorful clothing. You know, he's really unlike the Spanish Spaniards dress.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: And so it came to be that the that the
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: native people and in various tribes started coming to him
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: as a medicine man and respecting him as a medicine man.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: And so these four guys managed to sort of get
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: past tribe to tribe using their their you know, medicine powers,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: their spiritual powers to kind of pave the way and
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: protect them. And it took them seven years to get
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to what's now the west coast of Mexico. They got
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: to basically where the headquarters of the Sinaloa Cartel.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: That's what's so crazy making now, like you get a
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: couple delayed flights and you get somewhere two days day late,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: two days late. You're like, dude.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: And then when they and then when they show up,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: there's another conquista are coming up from the south and
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: and and taking taking uh Indians as slaves and and
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: really brutalizing that west coast of Mexico. And so some
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: of his guys are on a slaving expedition and they
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: see these four random you know, like wild men walking
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: out of the bush and they and they're dressed in
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: animal skins, these guys, you know, and the four guys
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: and the Spanish slaverskunkyster or slavers, Like who are these guys?
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like in the in the documents.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: They one of them responds in perfect Castilian Spanish. It's
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: like formal, you know, he's all ragged ye yeah, yeah,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: like assumed dead, yeah, assumed seven years. And and then
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: so then they get back to Mexico City, you know,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: then they explain who they are they're brought back to
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: brought to Mexico City.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Those dudes had to be like, let me get this straight.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: You're saying it's such an unbelievable story. And as they're saying,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: you walked from.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: The like this is where the space alien rumors really start.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: So then they get to Mexico City and you know
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: they're created, like wow, these guys are survivors and they
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: and they you know, it turns out, you know, maybe
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: they really did travel all this way. And in Mexico City,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: you know which is now it's it's been converting from
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: an Aztecan empire, you know capital with all the stone pyramids.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: They're ripping down the stones and making a big cathedral
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: and you know, transforming it. Well, they were real they
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: were repurposing the stones, the bloody stones I like to
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: think into the you know, the.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Sacostry of the theater. I write about this.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I write about this in some detail actually, and one
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: of the things they have to do really yeah, yeah,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: this is this is like a little side cathedrals out
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of those stones, out of those stones. And then one
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: of the things I had to do is I did
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: quite a lot of research. I mean, it was really
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: interesting that the Spaniards in that era, you know, conquering
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: the South American and Central American empires. You know, there
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: were very developed religions and the Aztecs were you know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: famous then and now for their their human sacrifice. You know,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: it was like they needed they believed that the gods
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: needed to be fed blood. So there would be sacrifices
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: all the time on top of these pyramids. And one
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: was like I can't you know, it was like twenty
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: stories high or something. And so once the Aztecs are conquered,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: then the Spaniards are saying, well, we're going to bring
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: religion to these people, and so they get workers, I'm
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: sure many of them are native slaves, to pull the
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: pyramid down, you know, the many there are seventy of
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: them in the central Mexico on big Square and start
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: making a big cathedral. But the Spaniards are really freaked
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: out about the spirits of the Aztecs and these other religions.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And so whenever they would come across a like a
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: chamber of worship or any spiritual thing having to do
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: with these these and with these religions, they would bury it.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: They'd seal it underground because they'd have to seal the
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: spirits in. And so, as I point out in this book,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: and I wandered around this area a lot in Mexico,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: city where the cathedral is built, and it's been really
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: cool archaeological work they're done in recent decades.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: But they built the cathedral.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: It's almost on top of what was called the Tower
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: of Skulls, and it was like a tower of I've
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: read about tower and they're pictures of it. It is amazing,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: you know, all these skulls. It's like a huge well
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: with all these skulls on the inside. Bringing pictures of it.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: There are pictures of it. Yeah, archaeological photos. It's been excavated.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: How many you're in there?
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Hundreds and hundreds, I can we could call it well
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: later we'll see if we can call them up. I
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: actually have some on my camera because I took.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Phil has something to do over there.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: What's it called the Tower of Skulls in Mexico City,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And so they, you know, they built this cathedral on
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: top of those of those Aztec you know, sacrifice sites,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: try to seal everything in the ground. Sure, and you know,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: part of my you know, this is sort of a
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: speculative fun premise is that you know, when Coronado marys
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: his twelve year old bride in that cathedral, they're like
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: standing on top of the tower of skulls, and some
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: of those spirits aren't all that well sealed in there,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: and they eventually.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Kind of get into his head. I mean, this is
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: like a metaphor really.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: So then what happens is the the four shipwreck survivors
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: get to Mexico City, which is being transformed from the
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Aztec capital into a into the capital of New Spain,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: and you know these the bizarro and oh, there you go.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: There's some skulls in the Tower of Skulls. I've got
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: to I've got a picture on my cell phone. I've
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: got one that's clearer than that about that. You really see,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: it's kind of an outline of skulls.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: It's probably too late to redesign the studio.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I mean this is what we're looking at
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: underground in the center of Mexico City, and it's it's
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: there have been big excavations there in probably the last
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: twenty years, and now it's it's really cool because you
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: can walk down in some of them and they're just
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: right now part of everything. So the four shipwrecked survivors,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: you know, brought to Mexico City. The Cortez has just
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: knocked off the Aztec empire like twenty five years earlier
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: or fifteen years earlier, and Pizarro has just knocked off
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: the Incas three years earlier, and you know, they're all
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: these like piles of gold coming, you know, being discovered
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: in these empires in Central and South America. And so
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: everybody asked these four shipwrecked survivors, hey, do you guys
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: see any like gold up there?
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Empires? It's so wild, And these guys are like, you
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: never to run into your empire.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Run you're running in any empire. You're seven years of
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: ship and these guys are.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Kind of like, oh, well, I'm not sure. We're not
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: sure about that. But it's all all it takes. It's
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: like there's just some little rumor that gets started and yeah,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: like some dudes told us about whatever, yeah, or they
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: told it.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I think I think the close thing that actual detail
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: was that there were they'd heard about seven cities up there.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: There were seven cities, and and and that you know,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: this is like in the south north of Mexico, whatever's
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: up there, and you know what's now in the American southwest,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: and and that directly feeds in to this old old
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Spanish Iberian story that when the Moors conquered the Iberian Peninsula,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: like in seven fifty or ad or something, that the
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Catholic bishops, seven Catholic bishops took all the wealth and
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: all the gold from the church, you know, the cathedrals
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: from seven cathedrals, and the seven bishops took the piles
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: of wealth and gold and they put them in seven
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: boats and they sailed west across the ocean and founded
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: seven wealthy cities across the ocean. So so that became
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: when when it was heard that there were seven cities
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: somewhere north of Mexico City, people that, oh, those are
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: the seven Cities of Gold. You know, this is what
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: we've been talking about for five hundred years. And there
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: they are. And so this whole thing just gets cranked up,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: and and they send a reconnaissance party up there.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: This this isn't like this way, this rumor mill thing
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: isn't an isolated instant. Because we're talking about in a
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: project I'm working on right now, we're talking about like
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: the French upon the Saint Lawrence. Oh, that's a cool story.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: And again they like they get they take some indigenous people,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: bring them, bring them back to France, and then they
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: kind of they're grilling them and grilling them and grilling them,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: and you can see that they sort of pick up
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: on what they want to hear. I mean that's exactly.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, way up there is a place like
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about. But then it gets kind of
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: like crazier and they're like, oh, and there's people that
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: that have no anus. Okay, there's there's a people that
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: are just one legged. It's like all everything is gold,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: you know. And then and again they're like legitimately trying
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: to find it, but you get a sense that the
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: indigenous people are like, yeah, just kind of play along,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: And they don't really know what these these these Europeans
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: are talking about.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Asking them and ask them and eventually okay, yeah, sure
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: the neighbors find whatever you need to the neighbors, because
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: there's none of that here.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: That comes into this Coronado story too, ye big time.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: And so and then so they send the the Viceroy Mendoza,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: who's that he's like the King's representative in Spain and
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: he's arrived and just the year before scouting mission. Yeah,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: so Mendoza, well, Coronado is a protege of the Vice
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Roy Mendoza. Mendoza has been sent to New Spain by
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: the king to reign in Cortez, because Cortez is like
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: thinking all of new Spain is his, you know, And
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: the King of Spain says, Vice you know, Mendoza, my
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: trusted man, you're my viceroy. You go and reign in Cortez.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: And that's how Coronado is. Like a young protege of
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Vice Roy Mendoza comes with from Spain to Mexico with
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Vice Roy Mendoza. Then the rumors of gold start to
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: the north, and Vice Roy Mendoza sends a scouts up
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: to see if they're true. And he sends this dude,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: among others, a guy named Fray Marcos, who there's a
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: long story that I won't go into, but it's you know,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: another long traumatic story. And and Fray Marcos comes back,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: you know, months later and says, oh, yeah, yeah, I
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: saw those I saw this, you know, incredible city up there,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: and you know, the Golden City's incredible stuff.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: He says, he first hand saw it. He said, he's
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: first hand sought.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: And then he gets back to Mexico City and well,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: then why is he saying that? That's a question for
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: the ages people have wondered that. And and then but
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: he so he gets I mean maybe it's the same thing,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: like he's telling people what they want to hear, and
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: and you know, maybe he didn't tell them exactly that,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: but he said, yeah, there are big they're big, tall
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: cities up up that way, which in fact there were pueblos,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: and and so he goes back to Mexico City and
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: and you know, it comes back, Oh yeah, there's seven
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: cities up there. And so now it's just like this
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: frenzy starts in Mexico City. All these people want to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: invest in this expedition and and take part in it,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: and you know invest in it too, because they know
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: they're going to find piles of gold north of you know,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: in the in the mysterious north. They just know it.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: It's you know, it's happened in Mexico, it's happened in
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the Andes with the Incas, so it's happening in other
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: places too in the south. And you know, they're golden
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: cities and piles of gold. So this it becomes this
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: massive effort and it's it's now it's believed to be
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: close to three thousand people. Uh, you know, hundreds of
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Spanish Spaniards dressed like conkystadors with armor or with leather armor,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: and you know, lances and armored horses, and then thousands
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: of as Techan warriors accompanying them, and thousands of there
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: at least a thousand horses with this with these guys,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: and there are maybe five thousand sheep, and there are
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: thousands of cattle that's unclear how many exactly cattle. But
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: this is all to feed this expedition. You know, you can
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: imagine like three thousand people that doesn't even include that,
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: like their wives along, their children along, they're you know,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: cobblers and gunsmiths and everything else. So you need all
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: this food, you know, on the hoof to feed this expedition.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: And and and so it heads north in the spring
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: of fifteen forty and they're going up there to raise Hell,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: they're going up there. They're going to go find the
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Golden Cities and take it, take it. And yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: they that's the plan. But there's a whole you know,
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: other dimension to the story. Well, there are two dimensions.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: One that the real wealth, it turned out was, and
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: they were realizing at the time, was not so much
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: in the gold which you could you know, take and
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: then go spend, but was in taking fertile lands and
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: making those you're in comey, Inda's your your own estates,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: and they'd be worked by you know, partially enslaved people
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: or native labor. And so that's where you could really
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: make a lot of money by having a big estate
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: that was you know, fertile estate that produced a lot.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: So that was one thing they were looking for in
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: addition to the Golden Cities. And then the the other
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: thing that was going on, which i'm spacing out now,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: as they're coming north, they they are told by the
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: King of Spain, and through vice Roy Mendoza, the King
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: of Spain is saying, We're not going to have it
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: many more of this brutality stuff that's been going on.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: You know, We're not going to go like hacking up
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: the Aztecs or the native people. We're not going to
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: go steal their food. We're not going to go hang them.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: We're not We're going to be humane. And it's like
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: it's supposed to be this whole shift in the Spanish
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Empire that is going to be humane rather than cruel,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: you know, rather than forceful, and so Cornado is under
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: orders from Vice Roy Mendoza. You have to be kind
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: with the native people. You can't raise villages, you have
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: to really have you have to be humanitarian. And so
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Cornado now has this you know, uh uh order, but
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: he didn't stick to that. He tried to for about
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: a week. I mean that, uh, he tried to, and
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: and that as he as soon as he got going
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: north that he had guys with them who were X
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: you know, X cruel conquistadors, and they started running out
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: of food. They you know, like their supply trains were
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: separated and they needed corn rather than just cattle. And
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: so the ex concystadors go into a village and just
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: take food, and the native people attack. And one of
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: the ex conquistadors is trying to flush some native warriors
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: out of a patch of brush and he forgots for
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: guests to put down his visor on his helmet. Bam,
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: an arrow right in the eye kills him dead. And
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: he's the chief of staff to the whole expedition. So
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: that causes all his buddies to go up in arms.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: You know, sem Diego is the chief of staff now
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: shot with a native arrow in the eye. So they say, Okay,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: we've got to punish these natives shrill the lessons.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: So where where is is this in Mexico?
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Still it would be it would be like north of well,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: far north of Acapulco. But you know where where like
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Coolia Khan and Sineloa is in the south of there.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: You hit the US months away.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so so they they because their buddy got
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: hit in the eye with an arrow, you know, the
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: clunky stord buddy. They hang a bunch of the native
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: warriors and the native people and you know, kind of
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: ran they just randomly set snag a bunch and hang them.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: And that's sort of like the beginning of this is
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: not the human expedition that it was cracked out to be.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And but that that that story goes way on to
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: the north. You pick it up from here. I can,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I can, I can? I can keep going with it.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: That that that they spend six months basically, And I
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: calculated that if you put that all the animals and
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: people knows the tail in that expedition, it would stretch
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: for fifteen miles.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: And I was thinking, yeah, think of.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: All that that that dust and the piles of dung,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: and it's track, you know, just Hotter Hill and Hotter Yeah,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: and I mean, how do they do that? It's just
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: it's hard to imagine. But they finally they finally get up.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: After months, they finally cross into what's now southern Arizona.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Okay, so they they entered they entered into Arizona. Not
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: in Mexican, yeah, but just right next to New Mexico.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: It'd be south of Phoenix and south of Tucson. Because
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: people have done a pretty good job of piecing together
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: what this route is, even though there's like certain questions here,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: there are certain ques and just in that that's where
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: they're real questions, is right in that area. And I
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: think you've had haven't you had Denny Seymour on here yet? Yeah?
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: So she's yeah, she's on one's looked at that. She's
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: really looking at that. And so she has, you know,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: she she's done research in one valley and then there's
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: another valley, and there's discussion in which route was which
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: and where they both used or how do that all work?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: But she's found cool stuff. I mean, it's amazing. She's
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: done great work. When they when they hit what's now
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: in the US, did they have a sense of how
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: far they were, like, what was their comprehension of how
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: far they were going to go, because I mean they
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: ultimately make it up into Texas and Kansas, make it
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: they almost made it. The hour think they were going.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: I figured out there were just a few weeks short
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: of getting to Chicago, which was which was then an
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: it was it was an Indian portage at that I
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: mean it was for for thousands of years.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: But they were headed that way.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: And so so their their aim was to get to
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: the Seven Cities, and they they knew it was up
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: there somewhere, and you know, Fray Marcos had reported, yeah,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: there's seven cities up there, and there are you know,
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: one hundred days travel away or eighty days travel or whatever.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: And so so then after fray Marcos reports this, and
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: the expedition starts coming up you know, by sometimes that
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: by pieces, sometimes huge chunks. It finally crosses what's now
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: with Coronado. What's now It would be like you know, Phoenix,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: you're familiar with Phoenix, And if you look east of Phoenix,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: there's big mountain range right there, you know, big deserty
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: tall mountain ranges called the Superstition Mountains and if you
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: go on the other side of the Superstition Mountains. I
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: mean even today you can look at Google Maps, there's
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: not a whole lot of human presence at all, almost zero.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: And you know, desert and rough well, they cross that
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: and they they call it the Day's Polato because there's
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: no food for fifteen days and they and people are starving,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: and you know, the astec and warriors, you know, they're
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: they're like the lowest in the in the pyramid, the
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: food pyramid. There the guys that get you know, they
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: have to be carrying their own food or they die.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: You know, once in a while they'll eat a horse.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Three guys poison themselves by eating plants around a little
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: spring they found, and you know it's like these luscious,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: like really salad looking greens. They're so hungry they just
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: they just slam them down. Die and they die die. Yeah,
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: And they finally emerge from the northern end of the
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Day's pop Lato, and then they go over some smaller
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: ranges and they go over a ridge. There's this's the
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: story is more complicated than this. But they go over
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: a ridge and they see this pueblo, which is, you know,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: a pretty big one seven stories high. But fray Marcos,
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: who's with him, has been saying these are like golden cities,
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: and yeah it's pretty high, but it's built of like
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: a rock and and and you know it's not like
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: big smooth dungeon walls and gags and everything.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Now that thing. I feel like I've read about this,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: and I feel like I read some writer historians speculating
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: that maybe he looked at it from a distance when
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: it was like lit by the evening sun. Yeah, that's
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: my theory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's like Alpin trying to
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: like give him some credit to be like, well, maybe
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: the sun was hitting it in the way that it
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: looked like it was gold.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it looked like it was well and part
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: of the story, yeah exactly. That's one of the theories.
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: Did they just smiths what fray Marco was saying? At
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: what point did his word not hold any.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: When they came over there?
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Rich and and the guy one of the chroniclers said,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: you would not have been wanted to be there to
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: hear the words that were thrown on fray Marcos that.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: And oh stone it was gold.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: And I mean part of that story it's there. There's
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: so many aspects and details. But the with Fray Marcos's
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: reconnaissance party, Esteban went and and so, and he was
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: like a real you know, rugged traveler. It's is Fray
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Marco's actually, But so Esteban apparently had a weakness for
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: Native women and he liked to collect turquoises. And so
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: by the time he got he was the first guy
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: to get to this city, the pueblo. But he the
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: the the Zuni is it it was the pueblo.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I've been yeah, I've been there. Oh yeah, I've been
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: there with Zuni dudes. And he went to that old
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: the old pueblo site and then kind of pointing out
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: the Coronado stuff. Yeah, I mean, like, dude, like it
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: was yesterday. Though it was like yesterday, you know what
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, like the culture that came from there.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you could be right on. I had
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: a Zuni guide who who grew up there. He grew
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: up a mile from that, this this first pueblos called Hawaku.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, you see that that patches, you know,
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: trees over there, that's that's my grandmother's house. That's where
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: I grew up. And you know, and so we're standing
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: on the ruins of Hawaku and he's saying, yeah, well
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: the front gates here, and they would come from that
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: path over the you know, that pass over there, And
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: as you say, it was like, yeah, it's like you know,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: you're you're going you're walking through the park and you know,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: and you're in your local park and he's pointing out this.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: It's like us earlier, like like for for us at
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: our culture, like talking about the American Revolution and stuff
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: like to the zoom you know, I mean these were
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, like to the Zuni today, it's it's like
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: a major you know, I mean, it's a major event,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: and it is a major thing like culturally in the
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: in the telling, and if there's they have the familiarity
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: with it that we would have with all the Civil
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: War and the Revolutionary War. Oh yeah, yeah, it's just
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: I mean very yes. So that's that's where this happened,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: and that's what happened, and it led to this and.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: So Esteban and so you know, he ends up at
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Hawaku and they and they soon kill him because they
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: figure out he looks there's some he has some resemblance
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: to an enemy warrior. They don't like the way he's
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: treating women or whatever, they kill him. And and so
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: it's unclear whether fray Marcos makes it all the way
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: to the pueblo, the Zuni Pueblo Hawaku, or if he's like,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: you know, several days in the rear and and and
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: gets the report of Esteban's death from from native guides
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: who are kind of like running back and forth. So
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: it's not clear if Fray Marcos actually laid eyes on
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: the on the pueblo during the reconnaissance run, but he's
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: certainly had a He made it very abundantly clear that
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: these were wealthy cities and the seven Wealthy Cities in
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: the North. And I you know, so he's an interesting
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: personality and I've kind of I've described him in my
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Lost Cities book as that in a way, he's like
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: a ah, you know, in a mountain endurance athlete, because
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: he's been with he was on the Pizarro expedition, and
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: you know, so he might have witnessed that room full
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: of gold. And he's also like, you know, these guys
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: often go barefoot, and you know, he's this frame. Marcus
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: is like a serious traveler, and I think like as
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: being this endurance athlete that just can cover you know,
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of miles a day, which I'm sure
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: he was, because there are reports of how far he'd go.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: And I think that he was, you know, invested with
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: his passion to you know, to collect Indian souls for Christianity.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: So I mean that was one way for a friar
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: to you know, really make a name for himself in
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: the church and in the eyes of God. You know,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: you can say thousands of heathen souls, millions of them.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: So I think that was a really a real driving
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: force for Fray Marcos to like get this whole expedition
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: up there, because not only were they looking for the
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Golden Cities fertile Land, they were also looking for India,
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: which they thought was just over the mountain. And then
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: they were also they were charged by the King and
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Queen of Spain was saving souls with converting them from
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: you know, Heathenism to Christianity, so called Heathenism, and and
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: so that it was I describe it this book, it's
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: like there's a special unit embedded with this huge cavalcade
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: and they're these Franciscan priests who are you know, they're
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: like the spiritual spearhead of the of the of the whole,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: and Fray Marcus is one of these guys. And so
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: so he had kind of a personal interest I think,
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: in in in in leading, you know, and convincing getting here.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: He was he he wasn't there for the gold, he
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: was there for the souls. And and yeah, so they
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: come over their riots and there's the alleged city of
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Gold and it's like this ship storm comes down on
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: Fray Marcos and you know, I'm surprised I didn't kill
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: him on the spot. Well they couldn't because you know,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: he's a man of God. That would not That would
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: not have been good if you were if you were
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: an ordinary, you know, citizen, he would have he would
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: have been so dead, probably in the worst ways. And
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: so then making long story short, not that long. At
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: this point, they march up to the across the plane
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: and you I think you probably heard the story some
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: of it, and towards Hawiku and they stop what's described
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: as a cross bowl shot away. So that's probably like
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: three hundred yards four hundred yards when you're the ballistics guys,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: And wouldn't you say a quarter mile maybe? And man,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know, with those crossbows, they might have been
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: really good ones.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like cocking them with their feet and stuff.
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: We're also not in the practice of launching arrows this
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: forty five degree.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Well exactly, and so they but anyway, they're a cross
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: bow bolt shot away and they stop. And meanwhile, the
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: like actual squadrons of Zuni warriors have come out, uh
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: with with what they're called bot priests, the Zuni priests
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: in the forefront, and the Zuni priests have poured down
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: a line of corn meal across the plane.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: And it's very clear what this corn meal line means.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: It means do not cross this line.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: It's the line of the saying.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: And and so at this point I never heard this
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: detail about the corner mea, oh the court. Yeah, that's
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: one of the coolest details. And it's happened in other
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: pueblos as well after this and turned the expedition and
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: so it was a real thing. And and so then
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: you know Coronado, you know, these guys aren't horses and
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: armor and banners, and you know, I'm sure they have
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: all their finery on. And Cornado has a suit of
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: gilded armor, gilded helmet, huge plume, you know, armored horses,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: and they and they ride up and they stop at
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: the corn mill line, and they, by requirement of the
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: King and Queen of Spain, they pull out this document.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: It's called the Requerimento, which means like the requirement, And
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: they're required by the King and Queen of Spain to
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: read this document to the Zunis three times in Latin.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: And this movie needs to be called the requirement.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so here the requirements go like this. It's
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: actually I think the requirement. I don't know if it's
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: a requirement applying to the Zunis or it's a requirement
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: applying to the conquistadors that they have to read.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: The document home. So it's red and Latin thread Latin.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: There's no three times. There's no effort to translate.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: Well suppose there's supposedly, you know, some accounts say that
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: there was a one guy on the you know, native
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: guy on the expedition who knew what he'd have to
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: know it both Spanish and not Huattel, which is the
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: aspect language. So it might have been translated as far
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: as not Wattel, but no farther than that.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Hey, we tried it.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: We tried, and so the requerimento severy law. But it
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: basically goes like this, you know, reading out in Latin. Okay,
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: you all are children of Adam and Eve and God
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: creative Adam and Eve and God. Uh embodiment on earth
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: is the Pope, and the pope power is embodied in
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: the King and Queen of Spain. Okay, And we are
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: representatives of the King and Queen of Spain.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: So I e.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: And according to Middle medieval logic, we're speaking directly from God.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Is kind of the way this this is the preamble,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: sort of like the declaration of independence, Like here's where
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: the power comes from. Yeah, we're representatives of God. And
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: you have two choices. One you accept us to send
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: fathers among you and and and show us show you
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: our ways in religion.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: Or two.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: And if you do that option one, you'll be treated
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: with the utmost kindness and generosity and care. Option two
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: is you refuse to let fathers come among you, and
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: what will happen is will kill you all and enslave
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: your women and children. So take your choice one or two.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: That's the requirement.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: That's the requirement.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: And so you know, and they're like literally parked at
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: the corner meal line and at this point somewhere, you know,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: and everybody's getting agitated. I think both the Astec and warriors.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: These guys are serious, serious, you know, they're they're like
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: the Native warriors in the Eastern Woodlands, I mean, you know,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: over the planes or any any North American Native warriors,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: very serious about warfare and skilled. And they're getting agitated.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: And the Zuni warriors they're all, you know, they're all
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: they all have bows and arrows, and they start like
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: launching these warning shots towards the Spaniards and their horses.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Oh they do, yeah, And first they're they're at a
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: distance these warning shots. And the way the Spaniards describe
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: it is like these guys, these Zuni warriors, you know,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: they they were shooting these straight shots that weren't very accurate,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: but i mean, you know, like a Native archer, you know,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: these guys are described as being able to hit a
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: rabbit while they are running, the warrior and the rabbit's
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: running and hit it with an arrow. So these are
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: not straight shots. These were extremely accurate, but they got
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: closer and closer, and finally one of the arrows Pierce's
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Fray Marcos's wrote, not Fray Marcos, Frey Luis's robe and
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: pins it to the ground. Okay, at that point all
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: hell breaks loose, and Coronado says the essentially it's it's
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: the Spanish charge. It says Santiago Sierra Espana, which means
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Saint James. That's the patron saint of Spain, Saint James,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: and close Spain like protect us Saint James. We're gonna
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: go charge. And then they charge on their horses and
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: they they they they, you know, essentially route these all
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: these you know, several hundred Zuni warriors who chase back
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: into the pueblo and some are some are killed by
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: on the on the plane, but most get back into
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: the pueblo and they the seventh story Hawaku Pueblo and
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: they pull up all the ladders and and meanwhile that
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: so yeah, so they pull up all the ladders, and
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: so now Cornado's guys are so weak from hunger because
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: they've gone across this desk Poblado. You know, so they
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: some of these journals say, yeah, it was that all
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: we wanted was food. You know, at that point, it
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: was just food. It was like the gold was almost secondary,
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: and so they swarm around the pueblo and the the
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: harkuboose uh arquebusiers you know, you know, the muskets are
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: like a cannon on a proped on a stick that
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: are on a stand, the ones we see in the
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Remington painting. Those guys are so weak with hunger they
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: can't stand up to shoot an old real shot that that,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: and and so, but you know there's still enough guys,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: and and I think especially the as tech and warriors
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: are playing much more a part of this than than
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: the span this accounts let on. But you know, they're
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: they're surrounding the pueblo and they're swarming it. And but
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: they're these pebbles are built like fortresses. The lower walls
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: are totally blank by by design, and you know, not
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: a door, not a window, and they're tall so you
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: just can't get up them. But there's one ladder and
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: behind that's hanging down that the Zuni's apparently forgot to
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: haul up. And the Spaniards find this one ladder and Cornado,
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: you know, he's the guys like thirty years old, you know,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: early thirties.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Oh he's young like that, he's young.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: He's borrowed his wife's money to fund the expedition and
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: his team. He married Beatrice when she was twelve, and
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: she was one of the richest women, probably was the
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: richest woman in New Spain. She had all these estates
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: and so and a pretty fierce mother. And so he
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: used her money to fund this expedition. And you know,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: I was saying, well, he didn't have the money, so
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: he did it in a time honored way. He borrowed
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: his wife's money. And so he's under a lot of pressure,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: and so he sees his ladder and he wants to
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: be the guy, you know, the warrior, the point, the leader,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: and so he gets off his horse and he in
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: his golden armor, he starts up this ladder. He does
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: he does personally. There are many accounts of this, and
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't leave from the front leading well for a moment.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: And he's part way up the ladder when like this
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: entire avalanche of boulders comes down on him, and you know,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: it was like a like a trap, a booby trap,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: and he just got crushed to the ground and including
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: a huge slab hit him on the directly on the helmet,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: and he would have died right there, except he had
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: some of his his uh key captains who are also
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: armored through their bodies, on top of him to protect
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: them from the you know, this complete.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Pummeling of rocks.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: And then they managed to drag him away and he
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: was very seriously uh head injured, and you know, it
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: was out for hours, if not longer, and he awoke
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: and he was in some tent off to the side
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: of the field. Knocked him out good though.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: They knocked him out really good.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean you can imagine a slab of
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: stone on a metal helmet. It was like, you know,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: you're talking about the NFL hits to the head on
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: a helmet like this is a big, huge blow. And
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: so then when he awakes, he's learned that as men
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: have taken the pueblo, which is kind of right, but
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: kind of not because basically the Zuni warriors just fled
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: out the back and through this they'd already cleared out
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: all the women and children and anything of value. And
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: one of the really cool parts of this story, I think,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: having to do with the whole all the all those
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: pueblo areas. I mean, there are many different pueblos through
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: that whole region, you know, each is a different society community,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: and many of them have a place of refuge. I mean,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: I think they're all And so the Zuni have this
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: really cool place of refuge. It's called daway Ylane, which
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: is or corn Mountain or thunder Mountain, and it's this
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: huge mesa that's several hundred feet high, you know, unscalable
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: unless you know exactly what you're doing. And it gets
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: enough rainfall and there's enough soil that they can grow
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: cross up there, and they have villages and wells, and
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: they're totally self they can be totally self sustaining up there,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: and you know, I describe it like having a spaceship
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: just hovering over the Zuni Valley where they can hang
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: out indefinitely. And so that's where the people from Habaku
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: and the warriors and eventually most of the people in
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: the Zuni Valley end up on the top of Dawa
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Lani and so you know, it's like they're in no
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: hurry to come down, and you know, Coronado and his
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: guys are looking around, like how can we get at
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: these people?
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like we can't even get a hold
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: of one of them, Like they still want to get them.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean they're looking for the sols to
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: save in gold to take and so you know, and
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: finally the Zuni send like an emissaries to Coronado and
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: and they meet peacefully, and that the Zunis. At this point,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: Cornado and his guys have like a few little gems
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: and like a little pebble of gold, and they hold
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: it up to the Zunis and say, do you guys
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: have any of this? And there's more dimension of the story,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: but essentially it goes like this, do you guys have
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: any of this? And the Zunis say, oh that that,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Oh no, we don't have any of that.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: But if you keep going that way, you'll find a
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: whole lot of Yeah, the neighbors.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: In fact, we'll give you guides to get there. So,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: making a long story short, that's how they almost end
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: up in Chicago, and and that that they're they're really
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: cool close.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Like I've read about this this move they do, and
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: it seems like historians recognize that it really is manipulation. Yeah,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: they are legitimately taking the pressure off and just getting
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: them some getting them out of here.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, yes, I mean there are some historians
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: who have said, no, I don't think that's right, but
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: others have said, yeah, that they were deceived. I mean
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: that there was a conscious deception. And I'm and I
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: think that's kind of almost the common wisdom these days,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: the common take on it. And I you know, I
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: really went into this in great depth for several years
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: and read every kind of possible account of what went on.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: Don't they eventually get when they give them a guide
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: who's supposed to take them? Don't they eventually get fed
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: up with that guy? Yeah? Yeah, So what happens is
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: that there's the Zunie. What you have to realize. I
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: address this quite a lot in the book. So, like
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: the Zunis have all these different communities, but they're separate,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: and yet they're they're interrelated, and they're actually, you know,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: some are enemies with each other, but mostly not. And
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: they're interrelated, you know, and they're they're close culturally. They
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: have different languages and their religions are somewhat different, but
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: they're each one has like a council of elders, and
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: these council of elders are it's it's like a non
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: hierarchical system of governance. It's you know, there's no like king,
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: there's no one chief. And so partly what happens is
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: the Spaniards, like they get to Hawaku or the Zuni
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: Valley and they say, like, you know, where's the king's house,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: where's the castle? And they keep asking it over and
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: over they can't find it because there there isn't one.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: And that was one of the reasons that the Aztec
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: and the Incas were so easy to knock off, I
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: mean relatively so, because they're looking for like they're looking
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: for the head of the.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: Snake, the head of the snake, and and that's that's
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: what worked for them in those in the South American empires,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: in the Pueblo culture and in the Pueblo cultures. You know,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: I describe it as like this huge interwoven fabric, and
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: you know, Corneatto could come up there and slash at
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: it all they wanted, but it's not you know, it's
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: not going to really make much of it, cous and.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: So you're not going to get them to capitulate because
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: you capture some specific feature.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: They've been it is not their first rodeo, and they
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: have these refuges where they can just disappear and in
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: these mountain refuges in the in the Spaniards, their enemies
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: just can't get at them. So they're they're very resilient,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: you know, to to attack in in many fashions. And
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: then but what happens is the zoonies. So there, you
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: know you've been there. Like it's very remote. I mean
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: even today it's you know, western New Mexico and the Zoonies,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: you know, put out word I think on they're very
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: established trading trails, including all the way to the coast
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: and way inland and down to Mexico City. The Zunis
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: send out messengers uh to the east to now to
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: what's now you know where Santa Fe is and Albuquerque.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: You know the Rio grand Valley which is several hundred
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: miles to the east of Zuni. And if you go
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: just beyond the Rio Grande Valley, there's a it's like
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: an a southern part of the Sangreda Christian range where
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: it's like a divide where rivers flow down to the
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: plains on one side and into the Rio Grande on
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: the other side. So it's it's it's like a natural
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: kind of subcontinental divide almost and on top of that
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: divide is a very elaborate pueblo called k because it's
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: known today as Pecos and it's a it's a National
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Historic site, the ruins of it. And this is a massive,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: highly developed pueblo that's been at the epicenter of like
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: almost cross continental trade for centuries. And the so the
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: people of Pequye trade with the people of the plains
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: with you know, buffalo, buffalo hides and meat and other things.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: And they have worn from the pueblos to the east,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: and seashells from the coast and macaw feathers from the
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: real Yeah. Yeah, the macaffe is a huge deal. And
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: so this this Pekos is like this international emporium of trade,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: you know, would be very cliently fifteen miles southeast of
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: Santa Fe today. And they so the Zunis send send
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: their messengers to the Pecos and and you know it's
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: like they collaborate.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: What are we going to do about these guys?
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: And so the there's a the leaders that some of
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: the elders, they're actually younger guys, once older ones, younger
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: from Pekos come to the Zunis and meet Coronado and
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: say and tell them about you know, Coronado's asking, well,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: like what's out there, blah blah blah, you know, and
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: they have and they said, well, yeah, I mean they
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: are these like these big planes with more animals than
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: you can ever imagine. And in fact, there's a tattoo
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: of one of these big animals, meaning a bison on
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: one of the on one of the Pekos guys. Really yeah,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: and so and so they point to the Pekos guys,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: the diplomats from Peko's point, Yeah, see that there. It
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: looks like an ocean full of these things. And and
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: the Spaniards are, oh, that sounds pretty cool. Let's let's
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: check it out. So that's when Coronado he's in Zuni,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: you know, Hawaku, and he's set up like a like
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: a court, you know, like a throne with an aunting
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: and you know, he's like the king of whatever deserted
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: pueblo and and so you know, he's he's smart about it,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: he's you know, he's a well organized guy. And so
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: he sends he decides to send out reconnaissance parties and
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: one goes from Zuni to the east towards Queka, Pekos
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: and then aiming for the buffet low plains, and one
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: to the west where they hear there's a big river
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: and they think maybe they're going to hit China or
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: or something. You know, they think China is over there.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: They've heard there's a big river. I think another one
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: is maybe going to the southwest, but you know, looking
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: for the ocean. Yeah, the other guys looking for the ocean.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: So the expedition that the reconnaissance party that's sent to
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: the east gets to Peikos and they the diplomats and
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: Pekos say yeah, well we'll give you, uh see, how
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: does this work. We'll give you guides to take you
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: farther east and out onto the plains. And so this
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: party goes out onto the plains, you know, it's a
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: smaller reconnaissance party, and and and they see buffalo, you know,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: and it's like this is amazing. And then and the
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: one of the guides, you know, like figures out there
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: looking for gold and he says, oh, well, we actually
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of gold, but we got to go
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: farther for it. And the Spaniards say, like, are you
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: sure there's gold?
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's gold.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: You know, my buddy Bigota's back in Pekos has a
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: golden bracelet, and so you can imagine that suddenly that
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: reconnaissance party spins around, goes back to Pekos.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: Oh see the bracelet.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, see the bracelet, and the Goodes is like, I
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: don't know. So you know, they end up torturing pagodas
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: to try to get the bracelet, and you know, relations
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: go south at this point, Oh my god.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: That they they essentially regroup because winter is coming on.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: They regroup in the in the pueblos which are north
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: of Albuquerque, like between Albuquerque and Santa Fe. There are
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: a lot it's a very populated pueblo in area and
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: you know, really good agricultural and real grand And meanwhile
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: that as part of this whole thing. I mean, this
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: story is so crazy. I can just go on and
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: on because there's so many different dimensions. But one of
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: the crazier ones is that Vice Roy Mendoza doesn't want
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: these guys raiding villages for food. So Vice Roy Mendoza
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: is going to have a convoy of ships supplying them
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: with more food and warm clothing and more ammo and
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: all these things, and it's going to go off the
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: west coast of Mexico. And everybody's thinking well, the Coronado
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: rod is going to be up the west coast of Mexico.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: And so this.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: Big flotilla under Captain al Ercan, who's a cool guy
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: and leaves great journals, starts going up the coast of
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: Mexico and goes into every little bay and inlet, you know,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: sticks down across and looks for Cornado and the expedition,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: and it's like.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: They're not they're not saying that. And meanwhile the coast
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: is let's see, I'll do it your away.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: But you know, it's like, you know, here's Baja, and
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: here's the you know, Sea of Cortes, and here's Mexico.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: And so Coronado starts on the coast, but he goes
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: straight north and so meanwhile the coast is veering like that,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: and the ships are going up like this, and they
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: they get, you know, towards towards the head of the gulf,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: and and then Coronado is looking for the ships, and
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: the ships are looking for Cornado. But there's like four
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: hundred miles of desert between them, and so this is
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: a problem. And the ships have the warm clothes and
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: they the Aztecan warriors and plus the Spaniards. You know,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: they're all from like these really subtropical or temperate clothes,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: and they're in the high elevation, yeah, like Zunia, I
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: think is seven thousand feet and you know it's high,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: high mountain, high desert, and they're getting hit by blizzards
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: and they're you know, just about dying. And they they
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: finally established a winter quarters over in a pueblo near
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: what's now Albuquerque, in the Rio Grande, and they it
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: seems they forcefully take it from the pueblo and people,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: even though they say they we just moved in, they borrowed.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they borrowed it.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: And so there ends up being even the account and
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: the Spanish accounts don't point to a lot of violence
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: at first, but it soon becomes violent, and including when
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: the Spaniards are freezing their butts off and they noticed
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: that the Puebloans have robes. I'd love to have one
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: made of turkey feathers. I mean it's like the original
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: down coat. And they have bison robes, you know, really warm,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: and the Spaniards are like in their you know, summer
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: jogging clothes them down and you know, subtropics, and so
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: the Spaniards sent an expedition to a Pueblo, a neighbor
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: in Pueblo to collect feather capes and buffalo feather capes
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: and buffalo capes. And the Puebloans don't want to give
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: them over the the capes, so the Spaniards just grab them,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: and then one guy rapes a woman, and then the
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: Puebloans start getting really pissed. They one night they run,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: they run the Spaniards horses out of the corral. You know,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: it's like it really feels like they kind of figured out,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: how do we get to the weak point of these guys,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: And you know, what's the I could just imagine this
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: council of elders like chewing this over many councils of elders.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: They have so much power, you know, the Spaniards, you know,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: with their their their steel and their horses. But if
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: we could just get at those horses, we could really
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: undercut them. And so they they stampede the horses out
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: of a corral and they've never seen horses, you know,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: horses disappeared from North America, like I can't remember thousands
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: and thousands, right, and and so then then so now
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: the horses are gone, and the Coronado sends out his
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: right hand man to go find like what's what's happening
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: to the horses, and he finds a lot of them
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: in like a fenced in area near one of the
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: pueblos and like inside the pueblo walls, and the Puebloans
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: are shooting arrows at the horses to see how easily
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: it is to kill these guys.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: Running around, And.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: So he reports back to Cornado this is what they're doing,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: and Coronado says, go take that pueblo and that ends
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: up being this bloody massacre, and the Puebloans eventually surrender,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: you know, they're supposed to hold up make the sign
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: of the cross to surrender, and they render, but this
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: guy that Cordano's right hand man pulls him out and
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: ties them to steaks and burns them at the steak
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: and you know, just essentially murders them. Yeah, and after
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: that things really go south.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: And so now, yeah, then they get like sadistic man
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: like they're like cutting people's hands.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: Well that comes later, that's what Boniate, but I mean
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: he was famously did that in Akama.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: That's like.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: What was that fifteen ninety nine anything. But they were doing, yeah,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: they were putting dogs on guys, you know, chaining guy
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: you know, chaining people up, and setting war dogs on
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: the on the Puebloan people to you know, torture them
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: and get information out of them.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: And then.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: So they they end up regrouping that winter, and then
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: in the spring they launched this big expedition to go
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: find the gold, like these alleged Golden empires where there
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: are giant canoes on these rivers and their golden bells
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: hanging on these canoes, and these chiefs sleep under trees
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: with golden bells jingling in the wind. And so they
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: they they aim for this thing, for this these Eastern empires,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: and they have given two guides, and the guides this
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: is what you're referring to. One is one is a uh.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: You know, there were slaves who were taken in from
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: the eastern tribes in combat, and so these slaves are
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: they're like guide slaves and guide captives. And they start
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: leading Cornad in all the wrong direction. And then Cornado,
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: one of the guides, start contradicting each other and that
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: ends up being a mess between these guides, and they
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: finally start veering where the real treasure is supposed to
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: be northeast, and that's where they get to Kansas.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: One of my favorite details out of this, and we've
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: we've talked about it and wrote about it is when
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: they're on the Texas Payanhandle and they start, yeah, when
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: they start finding the the the like the buffalo people,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: the nomads. Someone remarks on that they pressure flake their
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: stone knives with their teeth. Oh really, I didn't know that.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: I believe it. I mean that could you do that? No,
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: they pressure he says, they sharpened their blades under their teeth.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 4: And he says he also describes like the the teepees
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 4: and he says they have you know, they live like Arabs,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: and he makes this connection between.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: Nomadic Yeah, And I think that's a really interesting point too,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: that that you know, again corn Oto, it couldn't attack
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: these people because he move into attack and they just
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: like pack up and the night and move and they
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: could probably move faster than he could. And so, you know,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: the lack of actual settlements was a real detriment to
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: what he was trying to achieve. This, you know, this
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: idea of conquest and taking possession. Because every time he
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: took tried to take possession of something like that. People
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: who lived there just like, Okay, we're out of here.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's your patch. What a talk about this for
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: a minute, is.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: Tell me about this idea that that as the expedition
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: starts to fall apart and Coronado's getting duped and things
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: seem more and more kind of tenuous and a little
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: more chaotic, that he he's losing his mind.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm you know, I'm really firmly convinced of this,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: and I haven't seen any interpretations like this, partly because
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: the science is so new that so he you know,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: he wang down the head by literally it's described as
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: a slab of rock, and then going up that ladder
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: the first time, and then they he and it's you know,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: in this first stab out into the plains, they go
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: through the Texas plant panhandle, they get up to Kansas
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: and the land starts getting really good up there, but
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: it starts turning to winter. You know, it's getting into fall,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: and they don't want to get caught in winter on
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: the plains. This is the so this would be the
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: winter of it would be fall fifteen forty one, and
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: so Cornado says, Okay, let's go back to our winter
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: quarters in the Rio Grande valley where it's a little
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: bit warmer, and we'll regroup there and then we'll come
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: up this way in the spring. You know, with our
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: full force. These lands are getting more fertile. The guides
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: are saying, you know, the big empire is just over
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: that way, that Golden Empire. So we're in a regroup
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: and come back the next, you know, the next spring.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: So they go back to their winter quarters in the
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: Rio grand near Albuquerque, and they're holed up there and
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: the relations with the natives are really tense. It's come
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: to be called the Tea Wish War that's now known
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: as And in the spring they're about to launch again,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: and you know, nice day and people are in high
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: spirits and Coronado and his one of his main captain
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: go and have a horse race against each other. And
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: as they're galloping along this plane, the salad garth and
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: Coronado's horse breaks and it's the people on the expedition
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: thinks it's because they've been stored for so long, you know,
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: they're new satelegers, but they've rotted. And his salad earth breaks.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: The saddle spins, he falls off, he lands underneath the
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: other guy's horse. The other guy's horse at full gallop,
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: kicks him in the head. Ok, he's out for like
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: three weeks in a coma. I mean way out, real,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: way out.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: I know that. Yeah, yeah, totally gone. Totally different than
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: the rock hitting him in the head.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: Totally different. I mean that was not good. But this
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: is this is like near death. You know, everybody's saying
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: he's near death. And and so then when he finally
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: come starts coming out of that coma, he's like, you know, strange,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: and he's really paranoid and he doesn't want anybody, you know,
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: kind of he wants to be protected himself from his men,
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: and he's you know, trying to gear himself up for
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: this next phase. But it's clear that he's like really
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: wanged out. And then the news comes in that there's
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: been a native uprising down near that Arizona border where
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: they've tried to establish a midway station, so the way
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: back to Mexico City he's cut. There's no hope of resupply. Essentially,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: they're trapped out here, and it's like Cornado, it's just
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: he kind of goes into depression, and not kind of
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: he goes he literally goes into depression and paranoia and like.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: It was all for nothing. So he's recognizing that this
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: whole thing is.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: He doesn't want to go back. You know, he could
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: still go farther up towards Kansas and you know, get
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: to Iowa.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: But if he goes back, he's going to be shamed.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, totally yeah, total unbelievable shame, humiliation, failure, and
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: spent all his wife's money, his mother in law's money,
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: Vice Roymond Doze's money, and the guys on his expedition
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: have invested in the expedition themselves. And so he's in
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: this situation where it's like, I just what happens that
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: this is in one of the journals that when he
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: was in this condition, which really sounds it's like, and
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: I've dealt with depression, and it really it feels so
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: true the way the brain thinks in these circumstances, that
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: depressed circumstances. And so he's coming out of this coma.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: He's you know, in this pueblo room, you know, and
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: it's like winter and he's closed in and he comes
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: out of the coma and he and then he remembers
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: that when he was a young man in Salamanca that
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: a mathematical friend of his, and mathematical in this case
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: means like astrological friend told him that he would he
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: would go away and he would become famous in foreign lands,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: and then he would take a big fall and die.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: And this convinces him that he's about to die right here,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: and he says, he says, you know, these are according
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: to that, like the literal journals written by the guys
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: who were there at the time. He says, I just
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: want to go back and die in the arms of
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: my beatrice in Mexico City. And so now he has
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: to figure out how is he going to turn like
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: two thousand and three thousand gold hungry Spandards and Aztecs around,
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: And he kind of lays a plot to do it.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's clear enough to do that that he
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: and he probably has help. But he manages to start
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: a little rebellion among the soldiers, among the little group
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: who convinced their officers to like sign on with something,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: and they convince somebody else and somebody else until he
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: gets this packet of signed papers from the officers which
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: don't say like we're going back. They're kind of noncommittal,
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: but they're these signed papers and he locks them up
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: and he said, well, I got all your signatures saying
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: that you want to.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: Go back, So now we're going back. And you in
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: that move, you mentioned the thing a minute ago that
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: kind of informs that move. And I forgot about when
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: i'd read about this, is that guys on the expedition
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: kicked in money. Yeah, I kind of forgot that, like
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: some like a lot of these guys guys, Yeah, they're like, yeah,
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: I'll throw in with you, and I'll throw in my
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: own investment. And so not only is he not only
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: has like Coronado got to face this right the failure,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: but there's people, you know, lower ranking individuals that are also.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: Screwed exactly, and not only lower ranking that a lot
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: of these guys are aristocrats, but they're second sons, and
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: and so they've come to the New World, as Coronado has,
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: as a second son, seeking a fortune and they don't
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: have one at home. But there, you know, there are
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of opportunities, you know, knock off the empire
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: in the New World. And one of the great quotes
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: that I didn't end up in that book because I
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: saw it after after I'd finished the AFT. Is that
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: one of the one of the like the clerics in
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: Mexico City and fifteen, like fifteen thirties, when this expedition
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: is mounting up, says like, well, it's a good thing.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: It's a good thing. Coronado took all these guys, these
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: young aristocrats out of out of Mexico City because there
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: are a bunch of like no goods floating around like
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: quirks and water.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's because like you could picture that if you
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: were just like enlisted men, you know, and you go
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: on this trip as like as as you imagined a
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: contemporary soldier under a command structure, and then you realize
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: it's a fool's errand you might be relieved when someone says,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: I screwed up, let's go home. But in this case,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: you got a lot of people who are like really
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: invested and literally invested in the success, probably even down
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: to the Aztec warriors, like they're planning on getting some yeah,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: and I better some of them. A bunch of the
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: people are probably going to be like, yeah, it's time
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: to go home, But there's gonna be a big contingent
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: that is, like, what are you talking about? A huge
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: we have not. And so there was a huge rebellion.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: I mean his guys, I mean the real knights, you know,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: the guys who were the higher st up the you know,
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: the mounted guys with armor and everything else. They rebelled.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: They said, no, we're not going to do this. We'll
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: go back up to you know, up to Iowa, up
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: to the looking for Harrah Hay, the the next promised land.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: You could go home, you know, we'll keep going. And
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: he wouldn't let them do that. And you know, and
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: then he started saying, anybody's talking about going home, I'm
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: gonna have hung hanged. And so it was anybody who
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: resisted going home. Yeah, and so so he so he was.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: And there was a there was a couple from Mexico
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: City and like he was, you know, he's like a
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: cobbler or something, and she was his wife and they
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: were kind of little entrepreneurs, and you know, she was saying, yeah,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: I want to stay here. You know, there's like land
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: of opportunity. And he said, you talk like that again,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: you're gonna be strung up by a rope. And so
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: I mean this is a testimony that came out literally
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: in an inquisition afterwards. You know, this is a direct word.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: They investigated investigator like whether he abused the Indians.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: So he's like, I'm going home. Everybody's going on, we're done,
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: We're done, and they'll only people get my wife on
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: a fishing trip. Everybody's going see, you are not staying
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: just to make this business trip is over.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So it was kind of yeah, it was very
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: much like that. And then but the people he did
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: allow to stay were the where the friars because you know,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: it's going to be their mission to start, you know,
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: to you know, save souls. And so I think almost
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: all of them stayed, uh, and I think about ninety
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: five percent were soon dispatched by Oh yeah, that doesn't
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: sound like And there's there's a big cross up and
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: in like central Kansas, almost northern Kansas. Huge, you know,
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: like thirty feet high, and it's uh, it's a cross
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: that marks the spot of the martyrdom of Frey Padilla
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: because he was trying to start a mission up there
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: in they call it the land that they were searching.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: The first big one up there was called Queverra. Oh yeah,
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: so you've heard that. I mean, that's a Quivera. It's like,
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: you know, the mythical land of treasure. And so when
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: Coronado was turning around, Frey Padilla said, well, I want
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: to go back to the land of Quevea and start
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: a mission. And Cornado said, okay, yeah, you're gonna have
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: some mules. You can have this, you can have that,
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: you can have some servants. And so Frey Padilla went
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: up there and started a mission. And then it's not
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: entirely clear what happened, but he might have started to
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: try to go farther east to find the name Golden Land,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: you know, the next hope for a golden land, hoay,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: and that it's described that one day he was I
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: think he was walking maybe east or whatever, and he
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: was approached on the other way all these native warriors
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: with bows and arrows raised. And the story goes that
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: he gets down in the path or the road and
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: he starts praying to God. Next thing happens. He's a
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: pincushion that tips over and now there's a cross up there,
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: huge cross for there.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So when like in the title of your book,
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: in the subtitle, you say, in the Birth of the
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: American Indian resistance. I mean this really it's kind of
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: like an interesting if we're talking about like what became
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: the United States, right, right, this is like an interesting
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: case where you had these invading conquerors there were I mean,
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: they were defeated and sent packing. They were that's it's
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: a remarkable story.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: And and in that sense, and I you know, it's
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: it's become known, it's it's it's known as the first
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: named war in what's now the United States between Europeans
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: and called it's called the Tea Wish War t I
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: g U e X. And that, Yeah, the Spaniards were
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: thoroughly defeated, sent back, thwarted, you know, in some ways crushed, and.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: That like for a long time though, because that's the
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: weird like picture from the picture from the native perspective
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 3: at that time would be like this just outlandish thing
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: shows up.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: Outlandish. It just seems like like insurmountable, like like like a.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: God like yeah, I mean like like outer space people.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you figured out, you figured out they
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: go away. And then a long time passed decades before
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: probably felt like oh we won, yeah yeah, and you know.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: There the Spaniards didn't send a serious expedition for another
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: I think it was sixty years.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and even then for a long time, for a generation.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 2: Or at least, like they beat exactly, yeah, repelled and
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: invading people.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: And the invading people went.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: Away, they went away, they went away. And and you know,
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: that's the subtitle is the Birth of American Indian Resistance,
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: because it was like that, especially the Puebloans, you know,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: they wove themselves together in this in this real net
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: that that didn't really have to confront the Spaniards directly
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: in terms of warfare, but really just outsmarted them in
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways. And and the Port Bloans understood
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: how to survive in that climate way better, and and
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: and how to get.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: Who the Spaniards were.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: I mean they were utterly helpless without without the Puebloan
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: corn they you know they were, or the buffalo on.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: The Yeah, it's like you know, learning recognizing that the
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: landscape plays in your favor. It has elements of like
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: an insurgency. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: Like like you you create, you create a structure that's
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: hard to sort of like decapitate. You find a way
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: to like not confront in big battles. Right, you pick
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: your moments, You.
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: Pick your moment. I've in Washington did that a lot
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: in the Revolutionary War. You know, you tried to avoid
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: you know, yeah, avoiding them.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: The way to win is not fight keeping.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 4: And also just an individual like the individual acts of
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 4: oh it's it's over there, it's not here, is what
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 4: you're looking for, Like all these little individual you know,
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 4: there's a larger political resistance, a large individual acts of
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 4: working for one's own self interest.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: And and and it feels so much like it's coordinated.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's you know, and you know, I think
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: some historians initially didn't believe that, but you know, if
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: you really look at the documentation, there's more coming out more.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And the tendency, for the tendency for so
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: long is to ignore that that that people had a
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: like indigenous people had like a strategic awareness and right,
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean or even communicated with each other
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: over over you know, one hundred miles.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, they're in one campfire over there, in
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: one campfire over there, and there's no connection between the two.
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: And again, man, it's not you know, you look at
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: these other areas, it's it's like it's not an isolated strategy. No,
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: not at all.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: And in this case, rendald As, you were saying that,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: you know, misleading them. So one of the cool things
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: about the misleading was that, you know, when they first
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: had the like the slave guides, the captive guides, and
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: they're leaving Pekoas you know, which is now the sound
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: Great Cristo Range and going towards the buffalo planes. The
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: guides lead them towards you know, like towards Texas, to
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: the to the south east, and they get to a
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: place where they're you know, they're just like they're lost
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: on the buffalo planes. They don't know what to do,
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 2: and it turns out that they're like the real settlements.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: They eventually learned that the one guide rats on the
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: other guide. The real settlements are up to the northeast
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: at you know, Quavera, where their land is way richer
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: than it is down on the on the Texas Panhandle.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: But the the thinking is, i mean, one notion is
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: that the guides and the Puebloans who told the GUIDs
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: to do this, we're leading the Spaniards and this you know, huge,
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: huge party that's massively hungry all the time out into
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: these barren regions where there were there was just not
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: enough food to sustain, and so it was like they're
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: going to starve them out by sending them, sending them
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: into into a into an era deserted, era desert area.
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: So what uh, last question for you is what what
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: comes the ornato?
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: That's yeah, and well, hen well, you know the way
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: I frame this is he starts out the spring of
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: fifteen forty at the head of the grandest cavalcade the
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: New World has ever seen, you know, two thousand guys
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: and banners, blah blah blah. And he comes back two
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: and a half years later, carried on a litter, a
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: broken man, depressed, with one hundred followers kind of stumbling behind.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: And Vice Roy Mendoza, the accounts go greet him very coldly.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: And his wife.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: You want to the mother in law as a whole,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: she's a I mean, she took Cortes on mono almano
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: in legal lawsuits. She was a real battle you know,
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: ready to battle. And so so then but Vice Roy Mendoza,
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: you know, this is his young his protege that he's
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: bringing along for decades. He said, you know, okay, I'll
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 2: give you this kind of side job. You know, he's
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: like on the city council. I think he also gets
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: to be the governor of Nueva Galicia, which is up
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 2: near what's now Pert de viert And and then the
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: word comes out that he abused the Indians, and so
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: then he gets hauled into Mexico City, and there's like
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: several years of an inquiry into what he did, and
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: there's you know, the testimony that you know, books of
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: the testimony that come out, and he ends up being acquitted.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: One of his his like right hand man, his main captain, Cardinists,
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 2: gets convicted, ends up doing like after much you know,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: legal turmoil, ends up doing some community work and on
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: the Mediterranean coast and normaloga. That's how all the punishment
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: came down for this the only person who's who was
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: tried convicted for abusing the natives. And then but Cornado
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: State in Mexico City, you know, and had I can't remember.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: They had six or seven kids, and and he he
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: served in some capacity on the civil council, a city council.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: But I came across this letter and I later found
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: it and quote it in one book. But in the
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: archives in Mexico City, reporting on Cornado after he'd come back,
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: and this letter in Spanish, you know, written in fifteen
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: forty four or something said or the report I think
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: the viceroy of the king said, you know, ever since
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: he came back from that expedition, he hasn't been the
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: same person. They say he took a fall from a horse,
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: and it's never been the same.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: Really, it was now death Chile. Yeah, it's funny.
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: I've only seen that in one book, and I didn't
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: I saw it later, but I found built. I came
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: across it in these archives and it was like, oh.
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: That is the connection was made at the time.
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: It was made at the time. Yeah, he was never
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: the same. And you know what's It's like, he's more
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: he's like being kept at home with his wife and children,
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: and his homes like on the on the square, you know,
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: it's like kitty corner to Cortesa's palace, and so he's
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: being kept in his wife's house and his wife's family's
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: stone mansion and they and this letter says and at
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: this point he is more fit to be governed than
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: governed really, So I mean that's just like, that's the
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: time at the time and so and so that's one
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: of the things that which I bring up to some
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: degree in this book. It's like, you know, here's a
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: case of like brain damage. I mean, it's really clear.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: It's really clear if you know anything about CTE, which
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: I my father I think had it. So I followed
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: it for years and it's it's only and studied seriously
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: for like twenty years.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 5: They were they were like a long ways away from
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 5: identifying that really, I mean just in the last few
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 5: decades when you know, now we're talking about so many
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 5: you know, NFL football players, and twenty years ago it
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 5: was not even mentioned, I don't think.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: And it's a it's an interesting pursuit, like a historian
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: thing would be that that you would track down that
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: in history, you would track down individuals that had that
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: had behavioral patterns. Oh really, you know what I mean
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: that you can I wonder if you would find more
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: like these these inexplicable figures in history or whatever, that
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: you might find more things of like that, like more
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: cases where where someone might have suffered that from traumatic
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: brain interests.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well just think about how many you know,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: for a million, thousands of thousands, of years, humans at
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: war have been bashing each other on the head and
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: that's one of the things I've another fun research for
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: this book dug into this that I think it's something
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: like ten percent and it might is it. I think
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: it's Neanderthals or very early people. Ten percent of the
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: males have had what's called prep pannation. That's when it's
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: it was known to medical procedure pressure. Yeah, you drill
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: a hole in the head and relieve brain pressure, and
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: that believes it relieves evil spirits, basically depression.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: And so this has been something that's that humans have
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: been living with for since the beginning. That's crazy thing, man.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: There's another aspect of all this that that just in
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: the big picture to bring up and then we can
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 2: you know, take it wherever. But that you know, part
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: of my thesis is that thanks to the Puebloans, they
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: managed to thwart Spanish settlement in what's now the West,
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: you know. And later there were the Apaches and the Commanchees,
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: but the Puebloans were really the first line and they
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: and they kept their cultures remarkably intact to this day
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: and a lot. Yeah, and so the Spaniards, you know,
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: they like on the map they claimed all the way
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: up to you know what's now Canada and that they said,
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: this is been. And it was like just a joke
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: because they had they had Santa Fe. They had a
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: settlement at Santa Fe, and that was kind of it.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: They had a few scattered settlements, but they had a
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: very light colonial presence, and for you know, they established
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: Santa Fe in like sixteen oh nine or ten or
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: something like that. And then so and then once the
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: US westward movement started, you know, we can go back
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: to Daniel Boone. Those guys come over the mountains in
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: like seventeen seventy four, right, and they start settling in
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: the Kentucky Valley. And it took British that American you know,
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: resident citizens two hundred years to get from the Atlantic
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: coast to the Mississippi River settlement. And it took them
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: less than fifty years to get from the Mississippi River
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: to the Pacific coast. And one of the reasons is
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: there was no of course, there were Indian tribes, but
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: there were there was no colonial presence. There was no
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: empire hanging on to that. The Spain said, yeah, that's ours,
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 2: but I mean, it was there was no sign or
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 2: sight of Spain at all. And so that's part of
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: my thesis is that that this this the Puebloan you
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 2: know blockade I call it, kept the what's now the
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: western US and something of a power vacuum in terms
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: of European powers, so that when the US came pushed
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: west and westward movement, it just rolled through.
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: You know, this is the theme I've touched on a
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: lot in American history. It is particularly in the West,
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: but it's applicable in other parts of the country too.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: Is that looking at it now, your tendency is to
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: compress the timelines, right that it was like European powers
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: hit the coast and just oh yeah, right, right, do
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? But it's just it's like
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: you assume it was like preordainedous progress. Yeah, it seems
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: it just seems like that it hit and happened. But
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: you imagine Ryanda and I ha just finished a project
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: about the Buffalo Hide hunters, and a lot of that
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: project takes place post Civil War. Okay, so eighteen seventies
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: on the test on the planes on Theano Esticado, and
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: it has it has a that's when we talk about Coronado,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: but it has a very frontier feel. They're getting killed
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: by comanches. Okay, they're like, they're just post shovel warrior
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: tying post Civil war. They're getting killed by comanches. They're
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: looking at maps that have big holes in the maps,
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: and it's been three hundred years is that? Wow? Three
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: hundred years and there were other Europeans messing around there.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: It's so crazy. And you take like where we're sitting now, right,
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: and you start going back. So we're gonna go from
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: now and we're gonna go back three hundred years right
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: to try to get like what does that mean. It's like,
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: it's where you're sitting now and you're going back to
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: like the American Revolution before the French and Indian. Yeah,
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: it's like that is the distance what separates you now
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: from the French and Indian War or whatever, which you
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: can't even fathom was separating Like those buffalo hide hunters
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: on the plane post war Buffalo post Civil war buffalo
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: hide hunters who felt like they were on a frontier.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: They're getting killed by comanches. That distance separates them from
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: the first people that showed up there. It got killed
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: by exactly. Yeah, I mean it was a long long
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 1: it was longer than the history of our own country.
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: They were like still that they were in conflict with Europeans,
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: with European people. Yeah.
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's bizarre and it just doesn't enter our conscious
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: and that's one of the reasons I run like.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: It just happened. Yeah, I mean, like the.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 4: Christopher Columbus to the American Revolution is a shorter period
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 4: of time than Coronado to the US claiming all that
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 4: country like Guadaloup bead dollgo right, right, I mean that's
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 4: three hundred and six years or whatever.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's three centuries. Yeah, And you
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: know I make that point, it's like three it thwarted,
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 2: you know, European expansion into the West. The Puebloans and
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 2: you know, especially the Puebloans thwarted European expansion into the
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: West for three centuries before it really came in went
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: with with a westward movement. Yeah, it's in terms of
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: our historical perspective, it's just we have such an orientation
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 2: in our American history with you know, with good reason
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways, but it's it's focused on the
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: Atlantic coast, you know, like that's the epicenter and then
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: everything flows out from there. But in fact, the Spaniards
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: were way earlier, coming from the south. So I had
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: one guy I was doing a radio call in show.
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: I was really productive.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: You've been there, right, And I'm always glad I did those,
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: and but.
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 2: One guy, you know, and I was talking about this
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: Coronado story, and one guy we feel are really interested
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 2: in this history. But one guy called in and said, well,
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: it was like.
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: Oh that kind of reading. I think you remember. You
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: got to do those call in where you got to
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: do like they'll set you up and you got to
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: call thirteen morning shows. No idea of what you're calling
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: a radio radio tour. Yeah, like some guys like duh,
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: some guy, uh, Peter, I don't know, roll some kind
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: But what's going on, Peter, I'm going this morning exactly,
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: wrote the book, Peter. We gotta go. And then and
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: then sometimes when I've had sometimes I'm sure you'ven done this,
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: it's like I've had you got an AM station and
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: FM station back to back, and then it's like an
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: AM station. Yeah, yeah, I was going I was going
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: up tomorrow's all caffinated, ready to go. And then you
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: get to the f M station.
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, now we're going to look at this history very seriously.
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 2: It was a call in, yeah, question yeah, kgv Oh
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: Actually it's a it's pretty it's a pretty.
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: Big known one. And they're screening the calls. They're screening
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: the calls. No, they come, they come sign guys like
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: what's the drunkest you've ever been?
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 2: Always gets your stories there, so that'd be good too.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: So so anyway, this this call, this guy call hs in.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: You know, it's really I'm telling this sort of you
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: know Cornado story and early American history in the Spanish,
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: you know, coming up from the south. And and he said, well, yeah,
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 2: so it's like, you know, it was like the the
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: Spanish did an end run around you know, North America
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: and around the British and North American history. And I said, no,
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: the Spanish wouldn't call it an end run. They'd call
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: it one right up the middle. It was one hundred
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: years earlier.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: Well man, it's been great. Uh once once again, Peter
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 1: Stark new book, The Lost Cities of Ilonorte, Coronadle's Quest,
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  Speaker 1: the Unconquered West, and the Birth of American Indian Resistance. Peter,
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  Speaker 1: thanks for coming on man, it was really fun. Steve
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  Speaker 1: last you got one more in you? You got two more
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  Speaker 1: in you? Poison arrow No no, no books? Oh you
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  Speaker 1: do one? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking, I'm you know, I'm gonna have to
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  Speaker 2: pick your brain, which like you must have spirit book
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  Speaker 2: projects lying around.
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  Speaker 1: I got some, I got some handful, but at some
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  Speaker 1: point I'm just gonna fish man.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, so I'm I'm thinking, you know, more along
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  Speaker 2: these early exploration.
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  Speaker 1: Uh.
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  Speaker 2: And I you know, I wrote this book of Storia.
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  Speaker 2: That's that's done really well. I'm still doing really well.
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  Speaker 2: And this this book has some of the kind of
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  Speaker 2: that rock and roll feeling, like this craziness the Historia has.
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  Speaker 2: These two are very similar. And so I'm I'm I'm
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  Speaker 2: kind of looking for something along those lines. And it's
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  Speaker 2: probably you know, west towards the west, and I have
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  Speaker 2: something in mind. I won't go into it exactly. But
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  Speaker 2: another thing is a cannibalism. So I was a good seller.
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  Speaker 2: Ye people like to read about cannibalism.
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  Speaker 1: They do it stirs you up. I do. I'll give
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  Speaker 1: you one hot tip and I had to warn you
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  Speaker 1: though I gave the same David Grant, he was kicking
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  Speaker 1: around his next book, and oh yeah, scare of that
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  Speaker 1: guy hit. You know, he's that here's a hot tip
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  Speaker 1: for you, okay, And I'd lay it out a book
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  Speaker 1: for him. What was that? Maybe he's halfway done with it.
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  Speaker 1: He acted like he was honestly interested. Was a book
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  Speaker 1: about tell you no, you can't tell me? Well not
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  Speaker 1: now I meet Phil's gotta turned the equipment off. Oh okay,
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  Speaker 1: I took the world. I was telling him what his
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  Speaker 1: next book ought to be. Yeah, okay, I'll tell you.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I just I got a David Grand story.
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  Speaker 1: I got a David Grand story.
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  Speaker 2: So when I was researching that Young Washington book, so
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  Speaker 2: that came out in twenty eighteen, so there's like twenty fifteen,
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  Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, and you know, I always keep kind of
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  Speaker 2: a file of possible book ideas. And I was researching
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  Speaker 2: that and and uh, George's young wife, George Washington's young life, sorry,
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  Speaker 2: and his older brother had been uh, you know, kind
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  Speaker 2: of cut his teeth in the War of Jenkins Ear
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  Speaker 2: as a young Royal Navy officer and War of Jenkins Ear.
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  Speaker 2: That's pretty interesting. So I dove into the and then well,
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  Speaker 2: and then there was this like crazy story growing out
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  Speaker 2: of the War of Jenkins. Ear about this British navy
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  Speaker 2: fleet that went around the coast of South Tip of
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  Speaker 2: South America and shipwrecked on the western coast of South
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  Speaker 2: America and ended up, you know, cannibalizing each other and
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  Speaker 2: that ended up. And then I pitched it to my agent,
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  Speaker 2: you know, you know, I was about to pitch it
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  Speaker 2: to my agent, like this is kind of a wild story,
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  Speaker 2: and then I have this my agent's voice as a stewart,
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  Speaker 2: my agent's voice, No, that's about British. You want to
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  Speaker 2: write about Americans. And so then it turns out then
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  Speaker 2: you know it's the wager.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, slow him down.
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  Speaker 2: Anyway, Well we didn't talk about poison arrows after, but
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  Speaker 2: you know, warners hurt Sid's poison arrow that he said
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  Speaker 2: not to touch these Opata native warriors and what's now Sonora,
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  Speaker 2: Mexico had these arrows that were tipped with and with
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  Speaker 2: the Spanish called called a year but dey la flecha,
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  Speaker 2: you know, flee for the arrow that they dipped their
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  Speaker 2: tips in. And the Spanish were terrified of it because
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  Speaker 2: if it seems like if it hit you directly, you'd
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  Speaker 2: like kind of fall over dead. But they had armor on,
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  Speaker 2: so you know, they wouldn't really get hit much. But
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  Speaker 2: it turns out if you just got a little nick
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  Speaker 2: from that arrow, like one guy, his arm just started
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  Speaker 2: deteriorating and falling off like a piece of well done
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  Speaker 2: pot roast, and so it would it would deteriorate your body.
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  Speaker 2: And the the the journals say that like, yeah, seventeen
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  Speaker 2: of these guys Spaniards like they died from the poison.
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  Speaker 2: Arrows were the most horrible stench and painful death. And
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  Speaker 2: so this is the the flesh eating poison.
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  Speaker 1: What do they think it was made out of? It?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I've really looked into that. It's it's it's from
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  Speaker 2: a you know, euphobia, it's a it's a plant. They're like,
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  Speaker 2: it's so complicated, and I've asked like three different biochemists
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  Speaker 2: about it. That there's so many different species that are
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  Speaker 2: that are related, and a lot of them have have
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  Speaker 2: toxins of various types in them, various combinations. But I'm
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  Speaker 2: thinking that these arrows, they might have been there might
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  Speaker 2: have been two different types of poison, one on the
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  Speaker 2: arrow or more one that was a quick acting one
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  Speaker 2: and that that got in your bloodstream and another one
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  Speaker 2: that was a slow acting rot the flesh, you know, combination.
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  Speaker 2: So it's like when the Spaniards came the Hope. But
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  Speaker 2: I said, well, you know, let's check our pharma pharmaceutical
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  Speaker 2: shelf here and see what we can and how we
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  Speaker 2: can incur the most pain on these people. Yeah, it's
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  Speaker 2: always it's wild. I mean, they're really sophisticated.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's cool because you don't think of you know,
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  Speaker 1: you always think of the aerotoxins in Africa, South America.
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  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people don't think about aerotoxins.
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  Speaker 2: I mean it's like a high desert plant or you know,
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  Speaker 2: desert shrubs.
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  Speaker 4: I was going to walk away from this conversation with
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  Speaker 4: your larger point about Indian agency in the Southwest. Now
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  Speaker 4: all I can think about is describing necrosis as a
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  Speaker 4: well done pot roast.
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  Speaker 1: So that's my Okay, Well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 2: You know, a vivid image about this is this is
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  Speaker 2: why the the colonial powers didn't establish a very strong
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  Speaker 2: presence in the Southwest. But they were like being turned
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  Speaker 2: into pot roads.
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  Speaker 1: All right, boy, check it out. There's so many I mean,
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  Speaker 1: obviously we didn't even scratch the surface. Man, Peter Stark's
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  Speaker 1: The Lost Cities of Eleonorte, Coronidle's Quest, the Unconquered West,
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  Speaker 1: and the birth of American Indian Resistance. Peter Stark, thanks
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  Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks Steve. Thanks. N's
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  Speaker 1: really fun.